View Full Version : NJ the Garden State
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/04/nine_state_parks_may_close_und.html
This is worthy of another thread, my state is a mess. They are closing all the parks along the Delaware River, a beautiful area. The AT crosses just to the west of Worthington and goes right through High Point near Stokes (Culver Gap). What a state.
Rehash I know just a vent
New Jersey is a total mess. This state and most of the people here have been living on borrowed time and borrowed money far too long. The chickens will come home to roost soon.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,303159,00.html
X-LinkedHiker
04-08-2008, 11:31
See what happens where there are more politicians in a state than civilians? Especially when you let people like Corzine run a state. You can buy an election at well over 26 million dollars but can't afford the 2.9 million for the parks to remain open. (Even though they revenue more than twice that)
KirkMcquest
04-08-2008, 12:36
What's the difference if the park closes? I've hiked in closed parks before, its still the same woods, the AT will still be well traveled so the trail will be easy to follow. What do they need 2.9 million dollars for?
In AZ I've hiked places that are designated 'wilderness' meaning nobody 'maintains' it. Can't say that I'd know the difference. What am I missing?
Grumpy Ol' Pops
04-08-2008, 16:39
What's the difference if the park closes? I've hiked in closed parks before, its still the same woods, the AT will still be well traveled so the trail will be easy to follow. What do they need 2.9 million dollars for?
Sure the trail will still be there. But there are many other recreational opportunities (swimming, fishing, canoeing, boating, camping, birding, nature photography, or just getting the kids into nature and away from video games and computers for a day or two). The problem is for the hundreds of thousands of our residents who cannot afford outdoor recreational pursuits due to the lack of enough money already. Closing three of the most popular public camping areas in the state (Bulls Island, Worthington, High Point) will only create long waiting lists and congestion at the private campgrounds in those areas. I've camped in all three of the state parks, and they are equally as good as the privately owned properties. The prices are also lower! Where will these people go to camp? The shopping malls? Pennsylvania? New York? Perhaps the state will open the manicured lawns at Morven to them?
KirkMcquest
04-08-2008, 17:02
Sure the trail will still be there. But there are many other recreational opportunities (swimming, fishing, canoeing, boating, camping, birding, nature photography, or just getting the kids into nature and away from video games and computers for a day or two). The problem is for the hundreds of thousands of our residents who cannot afford outdoor recreational pursuits due to the lack of enough money already. Closing three of the most popular public camping areas in the state (Bulls Island, Worthington, High Point) will only create long waiting lists and congestion at the private campgrounds in those areas. I've camped in all three of the state parks, and they are equally as good as the privately owned properties. The prices are also lower! Where will these people go to camp? The shopping malls? Pennsylvania? New York? Perhaps the state will open the manicured lawns at Morven to them?
What I don't get is, what's stopping you from camping there? Parking, o.k I understand that, but there are ways around that problem. Seems like, with the park closed, the camping should be free. And why does the state need 2.9 million dollars to let people camp in the woods? Am I over-simplifying or stating the obvious?
What I don't get is, what's stopping you from camping there? Parking, o.k I understand that, but there are ways around that problem. Seems like, with the park closed, the camping should be free. And why does the state need 2.9 million dollars to let people camp in the woods? Am I over-simplifying or stating the obvious?
Simple, even if the park is closed, the area will still be patrolled by park police and anyone outside the AT corridor will be trespassing and therefore subject to arrest.
LIhikers
04-08-2008, 17:16
What I don't get is, what's stopping you from camping there? Parking, o.k I understand that, but there are ways around that problem. Seems like, with the park closed, the camping should be free.
No one will be able to camp there because now the mission of the park police will be to make sure that the facilaties aren't used. I had a run in with Officer Obie a couple of winters ago at a New Jersey state park and he wasn't happy that I followed the letter of the law, if not the spirit of it, and he couldn't write me a summons. I'm sure there will be "Park Closed" signs put up and anyone caught in the parks will be paying a fine. Just another typical case of blind American justice.
taildragger
04-08-2008, 17:19
What I don't get is, what's stopping you from camping there? Parking, o.k I understand that, but there are ways around that problem. Seems like, with the park closed, the camping should be free. And why does the state need 2.9 million dollars to let people camp in the woods? Am I over-simplifying or stating the obvious?
Its the gov't, if you want it, they need money for it, and then you pay again for being someone who uses it :mad:
Jackson said only Island Beach State Park operates at a surplus. However, she said the DEP was reluctant to raise fees for parking and camping because the parks are typically used by people of modest means.
Typical. We don't want to raise fees, because that might mean that some people won't be able to use the parks anymore. So instead, we close the parks, which means that no one will be able to use the parks.
I love zero-sum thinking. :mad: (Not to mention, of course, that if you can afford the extra $10-20 in gas to get to the park in the first place, you can probably afford the extra $5 to get in.)
KirkMcquest
04-09-2008, 16:15
I'd like know what the hell costs so much to run a patch of woods. My guess is most of the cost is in salaries and in unnecessary projects created to justify peoples jobs.
How about instead of raising fees to enter the park, we cut the expenses required to 'run' the park. I find the whole idea of charging fees to use a public park to be ridiculous. These parks belong to the public, as citizens we 'own' them, who has the right to charge us to use our own park?? The whole thing is just backwards. As protest, I recommend using the park anyway, if you get a fine, throw it in the garbage where it belongs.
Grumpy Ol' Pops
04-09-2008, 16:30
As protest, I recommend using the park anyway, if you get a fine, throw it in the garbage where it belongs.
Unfortunately, if you do that in protest, our wise leaders have chosen to extort even more money from you. If you don't pay the summons, you stand to lose other "privileges, like your driver's license, vehicle registration or professional license, as well as late fees, "contempt of court" fees, etc.
One example: the light rail system in use from Trenton to Camden. A one-way ticket at Senior Citizen rate costs 65 cents. Even if you purchase the ticket and you then "fail" to validate it by having a machine punch the date and time on it, you are subject to a beginning fine of $74.00 (yes, that's correct!) for a 65 cent fare. Only Gandalf knows what the fees are after that.
So light rail transit, meant to be a means of public transportation for people of low or limited income, becomes a cash cow to keep the trough filled for the people in power.
I can only imagine the charges and fines associated with someone "trespassing" in a park purchased and maintained with public funds!
KirkMcquest
04-09-2008, 16:37
Unfortunately, if you do that in protest, our wise leaders have chosen to extort even more money from you. If you don't pay the summons, you stand to lose other "privileges, like your driver's license, vehicle registration or professional license, as well as late fees, "contempt of court" fees, etc.
One example: the light rail system in use from Trenton to Camden. A one-way ticket at Senior Citizen rate costs 65 cents. Even if you purchase the ticket and you then "fail" to validate it by having a machine punch the date and time on it, you are subject to a beginning fine of $74.00 (yes, that's correct!) for a 65 cent fare. Only Gandalf knows what the fees are after that.
So light rail transit, meant to be a means of public transportation for people of low or limited income, becomes a cash cow to keep the trough filled for the people in power.
I can only imagine the charges and fines associated with someone "trespassing" in a park purchased and maintained with public funds!
So true. I used to live in N.J, so I know how they operate over there ( learned most of their enforcement techniques from the mob, I think). I live out of state, so as far as my license is concerned, there isn't much they could do to me. I wouldn't recommend throwing away a fine to anyone who lives in the state.
So true. I used to live in N.J, so I know how they operate over there ( learned most of their enforcement techniques from the mob, I think). I live out of state, so as far as my license is concerned, there isn't much they could do to me. I wouldn't recommend throwing away a fine to anyone who lives in the state.
Don't be too sure about that. States have all types of reciprocal agreements. Next time you visit NJ try not paying your tolls on the Turnpike or Parkway and see what happens.
Toolshed
04-09-2008, 17:31
Don't be too sure about that. States have all types of reciprocal agreements. Next time you visit NJ try not paying your tolls on the Turnpike or Parkway and see what happens.
Hmmmm. I've been reading about millions getting away without paying E-Z Pass and the state (or state Contractor) cannot even find them, target them nor collect form them. I am a gullible toll paying citizen
KirkMcquest
04-09-2008, 17:49
Hmmmm. I've been reading about millions getting away without paying E-Z Pass and the state (or state Contractor) cannot even find them, target them nor collect form them. I am a gullible toll paying citizen
Yes, believe me I've been through all this in a big way. There's not much they can do.
Hmmmm. I've been reading about millions getting away without paying E-Z Pass and the state (or state Contractor) cannot even find them, target them nor collect form them. I am a gullible toll paying citizen
Maybe I'm just unlucky, but I don't have E-Z pass and got stuck in the wrong lane once. I drove through without paying since there was no way to change lanes. The next week I got a ticket in the mail along with a photo of my license plate. I don't remember the exact amount, but it was a fairly stiff fine.