View Full Version : whats up with floorless tarptents
I'm looking at a Shires Tarptent but have looked at some of the other brands floorless tarps. They just don't seem to offer anything but lightness. I would think water would be an issue, not to mention crawlies, and dirt. Any opinions? and I know there are opinions out there. ankh 2010
88BlueGT
04-30-2008, 21:10
I'm looking at a Shires Tarptent but have looked at some of the other brands floorless tarps. They just don't seem to offer anything but lightness. I would think water would be an issue, not to mention crawlies, and dirt. Any opinions? and I know there are opinions out there. ankh 2010
you got it! and for some, thats all that matters. Pack size is a little smaller also with no floor.
greentick
04-30-2008, 21:12
crawlies and dirt? Are you sure you want to go into the woods;)?
It depends on how much bugs bother you, and how skilled you are at site selection to avoid puddling and runoff. Personally bugs don't bother me much. The idea of a skunk wandering under my tarp in the middle of the night is another story entirely.:eek:
take-a-knee
04-30-2008, 21:22
Henry Shires built his first tarptent to hike the CDT IIRC. It is a bit drier and a little less buggy in that area. I'd reccomend a floored model for the AT.
I've camped hundreds of nights under a tarp, using a plastic sheet as a ground cloth to keep the water and dirt off the bottom of my bag. Plastic sheet also used to sit on wet ground and logs for preparing meals. Great flexibility. Tarps and floorless tarptents give you great options in how to pitch (high or low) to ventilate.
OTOH, I got used to bugs, and only had one terrible night of mosquitoes (buried in bag). Never had any mammal/rodent problems.
Now that I hammock, I don't have to sleep on the ground where things crawl around, and I always have my bug-net with me for flying critters!
Footslogger
04-30-2008, 21:52
I've got both ...with and without floors and to be truthfull I don't think there's that much difference.
I have the Lunar Solo-e (with floor) and the Wild Oasis (without floor). The Lunar Solo-e weighs 23 ounces and the Wild Oasis weighs 13 ounces. When I hike with the Wild Oasis I carry a Tyvek groundsheet and the tent has a mesh skirt at the bottom that tucks under the groundsheet. So it's no dirtier or bugier than the Lunar Solo-e with a floor.
'Slogger
Daybreak
04-30-2008, 23:58
I have no floor in mine and usually use a silnylon ground cloth. I do get the occasionally crawlie and mouse. I'm planning to make my detachable with sewn velcro strips. When it pours out, I'm always adjusting the floor to keep it from the sides but have never gotten wet. With a do over, I'd get the model with the detachable floor. An alternative to a ground cloth is to take a larger pad (coleman at walmart/kmart is large but lighter than others). Due to all the rain and camped out areas on the AT, you really need a ground cloth or floor. On the PCT you can get by because there is little rain and you are usually camping on grass.
Daybreak
I'm looking at a Shires Tarptent but have looked at some of the other brands floorless tarps. They just don't seem to offer anything but lightness. I would think water would be an issue, not to mention crawlies, and dirt. Any opinions? and I know there are opinions out there. ankh 2010
It's pretty much a moot point with us these days. We still have a few floorless Squall 2 and Rainshadow 2 models left but have otherwise stopped making floorless shelters for now. Just not enough demand anymore.
-H
fiddlehead
05-01-2008, 04:45
I started using floorless shelter/tent designs in '98 and haven't looked back.
I don't like the lack of freedom in a tent where i am all locked and tucked in there like a coffin. When water gets in, it stays in, same with bugs,ect. not to mention having to pee in the middle of the night and climbing out of it all and then back in again.
Too many advantages with a floorless design. have never gotten wet in it, can cook, set it up over a plant without killing it, can ventilate much better depending on how high i set it up, roll over to pee, or check the stars (after you're out there a while you can tell time from them somewhat)
Weighing the pros and cons of each, i'll take the freedom of no floor in most situations.
ps, did i mention size and weight? flexibility?
minnesotasmith
05-01-2008, 05:43
Not much point to the floorless ones. Tiny bit lighter, and a LOT less useful.
bulldog49
05-01-2008, 11:26
I don't use a floorless tent solely beacuse of rain. You have to find a perfect spot to pitch it when it's raining or else you get a river flowing into it.
I can see using a floorless tent out west, where cowboy camping is often an attractive option. On the AT, no. I bought a Virga without a floor, in anticipation of a hiking trip out west, but had it retrofitted with a floor after a salamander slithered in, curled up in the toe of my sleeping quilt, and died there. I was also paranoid about stuff rolling out of the tent into the leaves, and being left behind--little things like earrings and headlamps. The other aspect is that a Tyvek floor is actually heavier than the silnylon sewn-in floor.
I'm not surprised that the sewn-in floors are so much more popular.
I have a ray-way tarp and net tent. In late Fall and Winter, I just use the tarp, and a ground cloth. In Spring and Summer I bring the net tent. I can not sleep with misquotes buzzing. I was concerned about crawlies at first, but I have never had a problem. I never prepare meals, or eat near my sleeping area, and always hang my food away from camp. Most critters, big and small want your food. Mice hang out in shelters because that is where the easy meals are found, not because they like dirty smelly hikers.
dessertrat
05-01-2008, 13:37
Crawlies are a concern for me. I sleep better in something where they can't get in. YMMV.
I don't use a floorless tent solely beacuse of rain. You have to find a perfect spot to pitch it when it's raining or else you get a river flowing into it.True, you need to think about where to pitch your tent, but you should be doing that anyway, even with a bathtub floor. It isn't hard, and almost all established sites are established because prior campers were smart enough to pitch their tent in a good spot.
I've never been wet in mine, FWIW, and have been in some pretty heavy rains.
I believe floorless tents are much better IMO than floored, and it has little to do with weight. A floorless tent and a groundsheet is really a tent with a detachable floor.
I've never been wet in mine, aas I said, and never had an issue with bugs. I use a piece of Tyvek as a ground sheet. The Tyvek can also be used on muddy shelter floors to keep my pad/bag clean, and if rolled up and stuck on the outside of your pack, can be drapped over you in an all-day deluge to allow you to eat lunch.
If the ground is muddy, it is easier to clean off a sheet of Tyvek than a tent floor.
Never had a mouse get in - just put some gear on the groundsheet that fits over the mesh, but it should be easy to shoo them out if one does get in.
There isn't a whole lot of difference between floored and floorless IMO, but I know that most people shudder at the thought of tents without floors. Witness tarptent no longer offering them. Too bad, but my next tent will be a Rainbow or Double Rainbow anyway.
I can see using a floorless tent out west, where cowboy camping is often an attractive option. Interesting. Out west is where I would use a floored tent. I'm not afraid of mice and salamanders and such, but scorpions, gila lizards, and sidewinders are another story altogether.
bulldog49
05-01-2008, 15:20
True, you need to think about where to pitch your tent, but you should be doing that anyway, even with a bathtub floor. It isn't hard, and almost all established sites are established because prior campers were smart enough to pitch their tent in a good spot.
I've never been wet in mine, FWIW, and have been in some pretty heavy rains.
I believe floorless tents are much better IMO than floored, and it has little to do with weight. A floorless tent and a groundsheet is really a tent with a detachable floor.
I've never been wet in mine, aas I said, and never had an issue with bugs. I use a piece of Tyvek as a ground sheet. The Tyvek can also be used on muddy shelter floors to keep my pad/bag clean, and if rolled up and stuck on the outside of your pack, can be drapped over you in an all-day deluge to allow you to eat lunch.
If the ground is muddy, it is easier to clean off a sheet of Tyvek than a tent floor.
Never had a mouse get in - just put some gear on the groundsheet that fits over the mesh, but it should be easy to shoo them out if one does get in.
There isn't a whole lot of difference between floored and floorless IMO, but I know that most people shudder at the thought of tents without floors. Witness tarptent no longer offering them. Too bad, but my next tent will be a Rainbow or Double Rainbow anyway.
I've got to disagree with you Frosty, and I do so based upon my experiene. If you camp on hard ground, unless the ground is perfectly level, water will roll in under the tarp. In my experience, perfectly level ground is extremely difficult to find and I find the floor allows me more options on where to pitch my shelter.
Alligator
05-01-2008, 15:36
I've got to disagree with you Frosty, and I do so based upon my experiene. If you camp on hard ground, unless the ground is perfectly level, water will roll in under the tarp. In my experience, perfectly level ground is extremely difficult to find and I find the floor allows me more options on where to pitch my shelter.I've only ever had one night in my tarp (not tarptent) where I had water pool underneath me. That was the result of picking a micro-depression to camp in. I rarely have perfectly level ground unless I'm on a tent pad. I tarp in 3 seasons with a tyvek groundcloth. I honestly don't see rain as being anything but a very minor issue for deciding on a floorless tent, provided some type of groundcloth is employed. Even bugs are minor, as a tarptent has complete walls to keep out the mosquitoes and blackflies.
Dirt:-?? If you are worried about getting dirty, backpacking is probably not a good choice for recreation:p.
ChinMusic
05-01-2008, 15:53
Crawlies are a concern for me. I sleep better in something where they can't get in. YMMV.
Me too. Gotta have a floor. Funny that I picked this hobby when I have an irrational fear of spiders......:eek:
I've got to disagree with you Frosty, and I do so based upon my experiene. If you camp on hard ground, unless the ground is perfectly level, water will roll in under the tarp.If it does, you have set up your tarp and groundsheet wrong.
The groundsheet should be smaller than the tarp or tarptent, which ever you use. Water should flow off the tarp onto the ground, not the groundsheet. Once on the ground, water will then either soak into the ground or flow under the groundsheet, just like it would flow under the floor of a floored tent. Absolutely no way should water get onto the top of your groundsheet.
The same applies to a floored tent, btw, if you use a groundsheet under it. The groundsheet should be a couple inches less wide and less long than the tent. Otherwise the water will pool between the groundsheet and the floor and really put your seam sealing to the test, and if you have even one tiny pinprick, scratch or rubbed area, you will have water inside your tent. Under a tarp, you could simply reach under and prop something under the hole to keep it higher than the water, and you could simply sloosh any water off the groundsheet onto the ground. In a tent with a bathtub floor once water gets in, you have a bathtub situation. Bail, baby, bail :D
I'm not trying to convert you to floorless tenting and tarping. Use the gear you like. I only point out that the problems with floorless tents are usuallly expounded on by people who do not use them and have not actually experienced the problems they describe. Nothing wrong with that, I don't have to be hit by lightning to know I'd rather not. But I thought I would give my experience with a tarp to add an experienced voice to the speculative voices. YMMV.
in my tarp (not tarptent) I like tarps, also. THere is so much flexibility in setting up. High, low, flat, steep, funnel in breeze, shunt wind away.
But I limit myself to fall with them because of bugs. I tried using a bugnet and it just never worked for me, especially as I'm a multiple call-of-nature guy at night. Getting tangled in the netting is SOP for me.
I've tried bivvies, but I'm 6' 5" and (all I'll admit to is) about 250#. I haven't found one that will accomodate my bulk.
Two Speed
05-01-2008, 19:25
I'm gonna stir the poop as say that as a general rule most hikers trend toward lighter shelters as they gain experience. Personally I'm in the process of transitioning to a tarp from a SMD Lunar.
Used to think I was more secure in a double wall tent, and then realized the tent wouldn't stop a determined bear but sure would slow me down if I needed to get out of Dodge in a hurry. These days traditional tents make me uncomfortable because I can't see out of them when they're zipped up.
Of course there are those times when I'll say to heck with it all and just cowboy camp.
take-a-knee
05-01-2008, 19:46
I'm gonna stir the poop as say that as a general rule most hikers trend toward lighter shelters as they gain experience. Personally I'm in the process of transitioning to a tarp from a SMD Lunar.
Used to think I was more secure in a double wall tent, and then realized the tent wouldn't stop a determined bear but sure would slow me down if I needed to get out of Dodge in a hurry. These days traditional tents make me uncomfortable because I can't see out of them when they're zipped up.
Of course there are those times when I'll say to heck with it all and just cowboy camp.
Well, I remember one trip in the early summer many years ago north of Tray Mountain when the flies were absolutely out of control. I remember another trip many years ago in the summer in the Nantahalas where the noseeums were really bad. I've also sweated inside a zipped up sleeping bag in Alaska with a headnet over my face with about 25 mosquitoes singing me to sleep perched over my face.
If I can't tote my hammock/tarp or a tarptent, I'll just stay home.
Two Speed
05-01-2008, 19:50
Three options the way I see it:
Bug repellent
Bug net
Hike in the winter
Of course that's not to say I'm gonna junk the Lunar.
Blissful
05-01-2008, 20:08
Paul Bunyan cowboyed on the AT a lot when we tented (as long as the weather was okay). My hubby prefers it as well. Or hammocks. He hates tents, actually.
I prefer a tent with a floor. It feels secure.
Alligator
05-01-2008, 20:21
Bug netting under a tarp does require a little work and can be a bit problematic. I'd bring more solid coverage such as a hammock, tarptent, or tent in the buggiest places too, particularly for blackflies. Having tarped now for a number of years, I'd personally be very content with a floorless tarptent on the AT. That being said, I've brought a hammock out on my last few summer trips, but have also used my tarp during summer without any regrets.
bulldog49
05-01-2008, 21:06
If it does, you have set up your tarp and groundsheet wrong.
The groundsheet should be smaller than the tarp or tarptent, which ever you use. Water should flow off the tarp onto the ground, not the groundsheet. Once on the ground, water will then either soak into the ground or flow under the groundsheet, just like it would flow under the floor of a floored tent. Absolutely no way should water get onto the top of your groundsheet.
The same applies to a floored tent, btw, if you use a groundsheet under it. The groundsheet should be a couple inches less wide and less long than the tent. Otherwise the water will pool between the groundsheet and the floor and really put your seam sealing to the test, and if you have even one tiny pinprick, scratch or rubbed area, you will have water inside your tent. Under a tarp, you could simply reach under and prop something under the hole to keep it higher than the water, and you could simply sloosh any water off the groundsheet onto the ground. In a tent with a bathtub floor once water gets in, you have a bathtub situation. Bail, baby, bail :D
I'm not trying to convert you to floorless tenting and tarping. Use the gear you like. I only point out that the problems with floorless tents are usuallly expounded on by people who do not use them and have not actually experienced the problems they describe. Nothing wrong with that, I don't have to be hit by lightning to know I'd rather not. But I thought I would give my experience with a tarp to add an experienced voice to the speculative voices. YMMV.
I'm no novice and I certainly know enough to keep my groundsheet under the tarp. As I said, on hard packed soil, which you will encounter in most campsites, the water will pool and run down slope and under the tarp. I spent a miserable week on the Superior hiking trail trying to keep my sleeping gear dry under a flooless tarp. Perfectly level camp sites were virtually non-existent. I speak from experience.
take-a-knee
05-01-2008, 21:11
I'm no novice and I certainly know enough to keep my groundsheet under the tarp. As I said, on hard packed soil, which you will encounter in most campsites, the water will pool and run down slope and under the tarp. I spent a miserable week on the Superior hiking trail trying to keep my sleeping gear dry under a flooless tarp. Perfectly level camp sites were virtually non-existent. I speak from experience.
The Boy Scouts and the Army used to teach digging a trench around your tarp/shelter. That "cakepan" floor in a Shires' Tarptent is a much more elegant solution, IMO.
fiddlehead
05-01-2008, 21:16
The Boy Scouts and the Army used to teach digging a trench around your tarp/shelter.
That doesn't make it right. Just think if everybody did that. The woods would be a muddy mess. (and people would be spending a lot of time in camp spent digging) Both outfits have been known to leave a place worse than they found it although the boy scouts behave much better i believe.
take-a-knee
05-01-2008, 21:21
That doesn't make it right. Just think if everybody did that. The woods would be a muddy mess. (and people would be spending a lot of time in camp spent digging) Both outfits have been known to leave a place worse than they found it although the boy scouts behave much better i believe.
I agree, when I was a teenager (30+ yr ago) you used to see the remains of trenching on AT campsites in GA in lots of places. Many didn't even pack their garbage out then. Some things have changed for the better, especially tarptents and hammocks!
Camping Dave
05-01-2008, 22:14
The Boy Scouts and the Army used to teach digging a trench around your tarp/shelter.
Key phrase "used to." We teach LNT now. You can argue how successful it is, but scouts undoubtedly impact the environment less now than when I was a kid.
Sermon over. Time to get back on topic. Half our troop tarped on our last campout. Bucketfulls of rain fell early Sunday morning and nobody got wet but me. I gave my son my good tarp and grabbed the one off the woodpile for myself. It looked ok (1 or 2 small tears) when I set it up, but from underneath I could dozen of little teeny holes.
Footslogger
05-01-2008, 23:11
[quote=Alligator;612094]Bug netting under a tarp does require a little work and can be a bit problematic.
======================================
That's one thing that makes the Wild Oasis kinda nice. Check out this link and you'll see that there is an 18" noseeum mesh skirt around the bottom edge of the tent that folds underneath the shelter.
http://www.sixmoondesigns.com/shop/shopexd.asp?id=48
Then you put your groundcloth down and voile` ...you have both visibility and ventillation but the creepy crawly and winged pests can't get at you.
'Slogger
I'm no novice and I certainly know enough to keep my groundsheet under the tarp. As I said, on hard packed soil, which you will encounter in most campsites, the water will pool and run down slope and under the tarp. I spent a miserable week on the Superior hiking trail trying to keep my sleeping gear dry under a flooless tarp. Perfectly level camp sites were virtually non-existent. I speak from experience.Still can't picture how you are managing to get water on top of your groundsheet rather than under it, but it sounds like for you, floored tents are the way to go. Wet gear isn't fun.
[quote=Alligator;612094]Bug netting under a tarp does require a little work and can be a bit problematic.
======================================
That's one thing that makes the Wild Oasis kinda nice. Check out this link and you'll see that there is an 18" noseeum mesh skirt around the bottom edge of the tent that folds underneath the shelter.
http://www.sixmoondesigns.com/shop/shopexd.asp?id=48
Then you put your groundcloth down and voile` ...you have both visibility and ventillation but the creepy crawly and winged pests can't get at you.
'SloggerPretty cool. 18" is a generous skirt, but it is the tapered part that interests me. Less need to sit gear on the groundsheet to to keep the mesh from slipping out.