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WhiteBlaze
05-03-2008, 14:30
<table border=0 width= valign=top cellpadding=2 cellspacing=7><tr><td valign=top class=j><font style="font-size:85%;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br><div style="padding-top:0.8em;"><img alt="" height="1" width="1"></div><div class=lh><a href="http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/0-0&fd=R&url=http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp%3FS%3D8265934%26nav%3Dmenu45_2&cid=0&ei=LK8cSMqvCIKyyQTCr7nOBg&usg=AFrqEzcbQrJRUEilJHBWBQdvIaVnPlcClA">Could Alabama be new <b>Appalachian Trail</b> end?</a><br><font size=-1><font color=#6f6f6f>WAVY-TV,&nbsp;VA&nbsp;-</font> <nobr>13 minutes ago</nobr></font><br><font size=-1>(AP) - A group is working to get the mighty <b>Appalachian Trail</b> extended to the foothills of Alabama. The <b>trail</b> currently runs 2175 miles through mountains, <b>...</b></font></div></font></td></tr></table>

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Phreak
05-03-2008, 14:32
I doubt it'll ever happen. It could be used to extend a hike, but they'll never get approval to move the southern terminus from GA.

4eyedbuzzard
05-03-2008, 14:55
From the article: "The plan could involve giving cash incentives to hikers who start the Appalachian Trail in Alabama."

They're kidding right? :-? Of course the local AL merchants would pick up on the NOBO herd's food, beer, and gear spending every year before 8 out of 10 drop out by GA. Maybe it isn't a bad economic plan for local overpriced convenience stores and outfitters.

If the trail begins in AL most prospective thrus will probably never even see Springer. Hmmm...

emerald
05-03-2008, 16:19
It's a great idea because Florida will then want in on it. Before long Cuba will follow.

Threads like this one make me miss moxie's posts.

Tin Man
05-03-2008, 16:24
The International Appalachian Trail heading north from Katahdin is an example of adding an extension to the AT without extending the real AT.

Any nominations for naming the Alabama extension?

'Bama AT?

4eyedbuzzard
05-03-2008, 16:38
How 'bout the Wannabe Trail? Hmm, even has a Native American ring to it...

Tin Man
05-03-2008, 16:57
SIGN post: Wrong Way Trail, If you are on it you are going the Wrong Way

FatMan
05-03-2008, 17:28
Any nominations for naming the Alabama extension?

'Bama AT?It already has a name. Pinhoti. A fine trail at that. But very unlikely it will ever become the Appalachian Trail.

Tin Man
05-03-2008, 18:00
It already has a name. Pinhoti. A fine trail at that. But very unlikely it will ever become the Appalachian Trail.

Yeah, but Pinhoti AT has no ring to it.

Cuffs
05-03-2008, 18:09
If you read the article, its the Chamber of Commerce, NOT a hiking group, that is pushing this. Alabama Hiking Trial Society, the states largest group has not even been approached about this...

Dances with Mice
05-03-2008, 22:25
The terminus will be moved the same day that Georgia, Alabama and Florida all agree on how best to share the water in the Chattahoochie River.

Frosty
05-04-2008, 00:31
From the article: "The plan could involve giving cash incentives to hikers who start the Appalachian Trail in Alabama."ANyone who hikes the Rock Garden should be paid :D

minnesotasmith
05-04-2008, 01:01
ANyone who hikes the Rock Garden should be paid :D

1) What IS the Rock Garden?

2) I've toyed a bit with starting my next thruhike (possibly as soon as 2009) on the southern end of the Pinhoti. Aside for no shelters or trail services (outfitters, hostels), not to mention far fewer other hikers how would it really differ from the AT in GA?

SGT Rock
05-04-2008, 10:17
1) What IS the Rock Garden?

2) I've toyed a bit with starting my next thruhike (possibly as soon as 2009) on the southern end of the Pinhoti. Aside for no shelters or trail services (outfitters, hostels), not to mention far fewer other hikers how would it really differ from the AT in GA?
I'm going to assume that Rock Garden was this piece of the trail south of Mt Cheaha with lots of rocks.

I understand they have been adding shelters to the Pinhoti, so you would have more of those than I did way back - though I only used one that trip. Once you get to the north end of the Pinhoti you will have to link into the BMT and either go south 90 miles to get to the AT at springer, or go north about 90 to get to the AT near Shuckstack. Personally I would recommend the go north option as I feel that section of the BMT is nicer than the southern section - but either way is good.

As for differeing, I imagine you may find the Pinhoti even less of a trail at times than the AT based on your remarks from your last thru. The Pinhoti when I hiked it had places where there were no markings and they prefer a wilder trail - the BMT you will have to use is also like that.

Another thing you will find on these sections is not only a lack of services, but a culture around the trail that has less understanding/familiarity with hikers. I notices a real difference between trying to hitch into a town or talking with locals on the BMT and Pinhoti than I did on the AT. On the AT people around it know what a hiker is doing out in the middle of no-where and understand what a hiker is looking for. On the Pinhoti and BMT I rarely ever found a local that knew that there was a trail in the area or knew anything about hikers (I was often treated as a homeless person).

So these trails take away some of the "safety net" for hikers. You cannot mail a drop box in these areas and expect the post office to know what you are doing. You cannot show up into town and get a hiker rate. You cannot show up to a restaurant smelling like a hiker and expect people are not going to tell you to eat outside. I ain't saying it will happen, but you may have to use more people skills and personality to get along with some of the folks along the trails.

WhiteBlaze
05-04-2008, 11:30
<table border=0 width= valign=top cellpadding=2 cellspacing=7><tr><td valign=top class=j><font style="font-size:85%;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br><div style="padding-top:0.8em;"><img alt="" height="1" width="1"></div><div class=lh><a href="http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/4-0&fd=R&url=http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/18560584.html&cid=0&ei=fdYdSPL_GZHgyQSOxKn9Dw&usg=AFrqEzdQM47B6V5ZY8hg59Z3f8YoLDhwPA">Could Alabama be the New <b>Appalachian Trail</b> End?</a><br><font size=-1><font color=#6f6f6f>WCTV,&nbsp;FL&nbsp;-</font> <nobr>14 minutes ago</nobr></font><br><font size=-1>Reporter: AP AP Video Mobile ~ Now local news, weather, sports, movies, stocks and other cities throughout the country on your cell phone or PDA. <b>...</b></font></div></font></td></tr></table>

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hammock engineer
05-04-2008, 11:46
Alabama boosters, though, are undeterred. The Birmingham Regional Chamber of Commerce is trying to build buzz among hikers. Some proponents are talking about giving cash incentives to hikers who start the Appalachian Trail in Alabama.

Cash to go hiking, now they are talking.

take-a-knee
05-04-2008, 11:52
The terminus will be moved the same day that Georgia, Alabama and Florida all agree on how best to share the water in the Chattahoochie River.

Now that is funny, a witty perspective as usual DWM.

minnesotasmith
05-04-2008, 12:32
1) They actually have about half a dozen shelters in place. I looked up distance from the PT on two of them, and they were both within 5 minutes' walk of the PT.

2) Resupply looks to be no biggee, with max of around 6 days food needed.

3) Much of the PT seems fairly pleasant walking WRT grade and elevation changes, kind of like the easier parts of GA (just a quick impression, could be wrong).

4) Agreed locals will not know there is an LD trail there. Best to limit hitches to as few as possible. That is, make good time, carry enough food for margin of error, resupply as close to the PT as possible. And, expect motels to be main way to get town showers. (Didn't see anything on remotely convenient truck stops.) Anyway, should see few to no loose dogs outside of roadwalks and town, as the trail is so little-known, not to mention the time of year I'd hike it.

5) Should be enough warmer that far south/lower altitude I might not need every bit of full winter gear as I would in GA. (Note that I'd leave early Jan. or so, if I tacked on the PT.)

6) Water mostly not too much of a problem, though sometimes need to carry water overnight (water often not near shelters).

SGT Rock
05-04-2008, 12:38
1) They actually have about half a dozen shelters in place. I looked up distance from the PT on two of them, and they were both within 5 minutes' walk of the PT.

2) Resupply looks to be no biggee, with max of around 6 days food needed.

I remember one good crossing where the interstate goes through - seems like there was a resupply point a few miles off. I didn't use it - I took 10 days of food and hiked it straight through in 8.5 days.


3) Much of the PT seems fairly pleasant walking WRT grade and elevation changes, kind of like the easier parts of GA (just a quick impression, could be wrong).
For the most part that was what I recall as well. I will say that there were some steep climbs on the BMT - just not very long ones. After doing a thru of the AT, they won't seem that bad at all to you.


4) Agreed locals will not know there is an LD trail there. Best to limit hitches to as few as possible. That is, make good time, carry enough food for margin of error, resupply as close to the PT as possible. And, expect motels to be main way to get town showers. (Didn't see anything on remotely convenient truck stops.) Anyway, should see few to no loose dogs outside of roadwalks and town, as the trail is so little-known, not to mention the time of year I'd hike it.
Actually this is one place I wouldn't assume if I were you. I got surrounded on the Pinhoti by a pack of stray dogs. Hiking sticks were all I needed to avoid the pack playing too hard with me.


5) Should be enough warmer that far south/lower altitude I might not need every bit of full winter gear as I would in GA. (Note that I'd leave early Jan. or so, if I tacked on the PT.)
I also wouldn't assume here either. I hiked it with a January start on the Pinhoti in 2000 and got caught up in an ice storm.


6) Water mostly not too much of a problem, though sometimes need to carry water overnight (water often not near shelters).
I don't recall water ever being an issue.

Two Speed
05-04-2008, 12:49
Heflin's the resupply point on the Alabama section, just north of I-20. Cave Spring in Georgia's next, followed by Dalton or Calhoun. From Calhoun I don't think there's another good resupply point before connecting with the BMT.

Towns and people along the Pinhoti are definitely less "trail oriented" than on the AT. Don't expect any organized trail magic, if you get my drift.

minnesotasmith
05-04-2008, 12:50
1) I saw no mention of any privies. Not really needed til hiker #s pick up, of course, and less important by far than finishing the planned shelters. Not a big deal, to be sure.

2) Many of the shelters are small pavilions with no sides. I'd figure on sleeping atop the picnic tables, for one. Second, a thick tarp of size and cords that could be attached vertically to shelter columns to shield against wind and slanting precip might be worth carrying.

3) I got pretty good at navigation on indistinct trail sections during my past AT thru. I had family members come up and hike some short sections with me, and they sometimes could hardly see trail that was plain as day to me. So, with the blazes every 0.1 mile, navs should be no major issue, it sounds.

SGT Rock
05-04-2008, 12:52
Cuffs mentioned a hikers guide for the Pinhoti in the works. I imagine it would end up being like I found on the BMT - if you are willing to do a lot of driving and map work ahead of time you might find some cool, convenient, resupply spots that someone just hiking through (like I did) wouldn't know existed.

minnesotasmith
05-04-2008, 12:53
Heflin's the resupply point on the Alabama section, just north of I-20. Cave Spring in Georgia's next, followed by Dalton or Calhoun. From Calhoun I don't think there's another good resupply point before connecting with the BMT.

Towns and people along the Pinhoti are definitely less "trail oriented" than on the AT. Don't expect any organized trail magic, if you get my drift.

Other than when you have specific notice that there is some ahead, ever expecting some is nuts, it's so against the odds. It's just an occasional unexpected bonus for hiking the AT.

Two Speed
05-04-2008, 12:54
Different experience than the AT, trust me. BTW, there are significant portions of the Pinhoti that do not have blazes every 0.1 mile.

SGT Rock
05-04-2008, 12:56
1) I saw no mention of any privies. Not really needed til hiker #s pick up, of course, and less important by far than finishing the planned shelters. Not a big deal, to be sure.

2) Many of the shelters are small pavilions with no sides. I'd figure on sleeping atop the picnic tables, for one. Second, a thick tarp of size and cords that could be attached vertically to shelter columns to shield against wind and slanting precip might be worth carrying.I don't recall any privies at all. The shelters that I saw were all AT style shelters - 3 walls, a roof, and a floor. Some were more elaborate than others, the Blue Mountain Shelter was a two tier if I recall correctly.


3) I got pretty good at navigation on indistinct trail sections during my past AT thru. I had family members come up and hike some short sections with me, and they sometimes could hardly see trail that was plain as day to me. So, with the blazes every 0.1 mile, navs should be no major issue, it sounds.
Well the BMT trail is where you can see it most of the time (only one section where this is in doubt) but the markers can be miles apart in section. The issue here is you can be on a trail that looks like it could be right, but not know for sure for a few miles. The farthest I ever went in the wrong direction was about 1/2 mile.

SGT Rock
05-04-2008, 12:57
Different experience than the AT, trust me. BTW, there are significant portions of the Pinhoti that do not have blazes every 0.1 mile.
What he said.

minnesotasmith
05-04-2008, 13:00
Different experience than the AT, trust me. BTW, there are significant portions of the Pinhoti that do not have blazes every 0.1 mile.

I thought I saw a piece on the PT site saying they had just reblazed the whole trail. When did you guys hike the PT?

Two Speed
05-04-2008, 13:01
Minnie, before you take it the wrong way, you can definitely handle the Pinhoti, but the navigation required is a step up from what's required on the AT. I'll let Sgt Rock speak to navigation on the BMT; he's probably forgotten more than I know about that trail.

For the Pinhoti the best maps I've seen are Mr Parkay's (http://picasaweb.google.com/Johnsonc80). Tighten up on your navigation and pay attention to the maps and you should be able to work it out.

SGT Rock
05-04-2008, 13:03
Well re-blazing doesn't mean the whole thing gets blazes. I cannot speak for certain about the PT, but on the BMT some wilderness areas forbid us to blaze. So while I can go back and freshen up blazes on parts of my trail where it is allowed, miles of the BMT go without any blazes and occasional signage.

I thru-hiked the PT in 2000, but as I recall there were areas they specifically decided not to blaze - but to allow the hiker to figure how they wanted to do it - stay on the ridge was the advice I got for that stretch.

Two Speed
05-04-2008, 13:03
I thought I saw a piece on the PT site saying they had just reblazed the whole trail. When did you guys hike the PT?Did the Georgia section from Dalton to Cave Spring last December. Blazing was erratic on that section at that time.

Couple of good threads on the Pinhoti on the "Other Long Trails" forum.

Bulldawg
05-04-2008, 13:14
Anyway, should see few to no loose dogs outside of roadwalks and town,

Always about the dogs with this guy? Did one chew his brain our through his ears younger in life?

minnesotasmith
05-04-2008, 13:35
Always about the dogs with this guy? Did one chew his brain our through his ears younger in life?

After about the 7th time during my 9-month 2006 thruhike that some moronic jerk's loose mutts decided with no provocation that they'd enjoy taking a bite out of me (an opinion mostly changed very quickly by my swinging or poking my stout wooden staff against their head or ribs with as much force as I could manage), with never feeling physically threatened by any other animal during that time (even the 10 bears I saw), I've come to the understandable conclusion that loose dogs are by far the most likely source of animal attack while on Eastern U.S. trails.

Was your thruhike 180 degrees from that?

Frolicking Dinosaurs
05-04-2008, 13:37
On the issue of moving the southern terminus of the AT - I've changed my former stance and am now staunchly against enlarging the AT in way. It is not because the PT or the BMT or any othe r trails that have been proposed aren't every bit as great as the AT, but because the other would fall under the wing of the ATC and ALDHA -- and I feel the current groups controlling them are doing a much better job of handling, developing and maintaining the trails under their control than the ATC & ALDHA do with the AT.

minnesotasmith
05-04-2008, 13:44
On the issue of moving the southern terminus of the AT - I've changed my former stance and am now staunchly against enlarging the AT in way. It is not because the PT or the BMT or any othe r trails that have been proposed aren't every bit as great as the AT, but because the other would fall under the wing of the ATC and ALDHA -- and I feel the current groups controlling them are doing a much better job of handling, developing and maintaining the trails under their control than the ATC & ALDHA do with the AT.

Certainly, they're constructing trail shelters at a much more rapid clip than the AT trail clubs are. Leaving aside the perennial Whites issue, places like the Cumberland Gap are on the slow road to nowhere AFAIK WRT getting appropriate shelter density in place.

Bulldawg
05-04-2008, 13:45
1) They actually have about half a dozen shelters in place. I looked up distance from the PT on two of them, and they were both within 5 minutes' walk of the PT.

2) Resupply looks to be no biggee, with max of around 6 days food needed.

3) Much of the PT seems fairly pleasant walking WRT grade and elevation changes, kind of like the easier parts of GA (just a quick impression, could be wrong).

4) Agreed locals will not know there is an LD trail there. Best to limit hitches to as few as possible. That is, make good time, carry enough food for margin of error, resupply as close to the PT as possible. And, expect motels to be main way to get town showers. (Didn't see anything on remotely convenient truck stops.) Anyway, should see few to no loose dogs outside of roadwalks and town, as the trail is so little-known, not to mention the time of year I'd hike it.

5) Should be enough warmer that far south/lower altitude I might not need every bit of full winter gear as I would in GA. (Note that I'd leave early Jan. or so, if I tacked on the PT.)

6) Water mostly not too much of a problem, though sometimes need to carry water overnight (water often not near shelters).


After about the 7th time during my 9-month 2006 thruhike that some moronic jerk's loose mutts decided with no provocation that they'd enjoy taking a bite out of me (an opinion mostly changed very quickly by my swinging or poking my stout wooden staff against their head or ribs with as much force as I could manage), with never feeling physically threatened by any other animal during that time (even the 10 bears I saw), I've come to the understandable conclusion that loose dogs are by far the most likely source of animal attack while on Eastern U.S. trails.

Was your thruhike 180 degrees from that?

I have never thru hiked, but still have quite a few miles of trail as well as walking close to home behind me. I find that 99.99% of the dogs I have encountered to be very friendly. I have been around dogs my entire life and have formed the opinion that dogs are only viscous and attack when they feel threatened. Have you ever thought that perhaps the dogs who supposedly attacked you felt threatened by you somehow. Threat to a dog does not always mean hitting them with or swinging a stick at them. I feel dogs have almost a sixth sense and sometimes perceive your threat. I feel like perhaps these dogs who supposedly attacked you perceived your threat to them and took offensive rather than defensive action.

Now some dogs will attack and guard without provocation. My Weimeraner will not allow any males into my yard unless I am outside with her. It is rare that she is outside without me, but sometimes if my wife or children goes out with her and I am gone, she will protect her and my children. One time I was trying to sell a vehicle and my family was outside while I was at work. Two men stopped to look at the vehicle, she almost chewed their leg off. But any other time, she would have run up to them and rolled over wanting her belly petted. It is instinct. Dogs protect their territory and sense predators and fear. Perhaps an adjustment in your attitude towards dogs and their owners would improve your interaction with the canines and their owners.

Just my opinion though with over 30 years experience with dogs.

WalkingStick75
05-04-2008, 13:49
My original thought was.... this is the first time that I ever heard that the AT was ever even planned to start someplace besides Springer. If this was in the in the original draft why shouldn't it start there?
But before I actually made the post I saw FD's post. Good point. Why not leave as is just like the Florida Trail and International AT

<O:p</O:p

SGT Rock
05-04-2008, 13:52
Certainly, they're constructing trail shelters at a much more rapid clip than the AT trail clubs are. Leaving aside the perennial Whites issue, places like the Cumberland Gap are on the slow road to nowhere AFAIK WRT getting appropriate shelter density in place.

I'm just speaking to appropriate shelter density and bringing up a point I mentioned earliier.

MS, I agree with Two Speed that this trail system is probably well within your skills. I just recall from your hike you had problems with the "standards" of trail maintenance that you found on the AT. My experience with the PT (though a little dated) is they were intentionally not grooming the trail up to the AT standards - though they seem to be adding shelters.

But once you get to the end of the PT you will have to hit the BMT. They have a whole other management philosophy which is very anti-shelter and one of a more wild trail experience. Their idea of a wild trail makes the AT look like a groomed city park.

I point all that out because of your past statements about how the ATC was letting things go - well if you go this way you will see a lot worse. But just be advised it was meant to be like that. Personally I think you would like the experience and you would have a good time - as long as you forget all that stuff about what a trail should be like. If that sort of thing does really bother you, then the PT/BMT trail to the AT may annoy you so much that in interferes with your ability to have a good time.

Again, I think you can make it just fine. I encourage you to do this.

minnesotasmith
05-04-2008, 13:54
I have never thru hiked, but still have quite a few miles of trail as well as walking close to home behind me. I find that 99.99% of the dogs I have encountered to be very friendly. I have been around dogs my entire life and have formed the opinion that dogs are only viscous and attack when they feel threatened. Have you ever thought that perhaps the dogs who supposedly attacked you felt threatened by you somehow. Threat to a dog does not always mean hitting them with or swinging a stick at them. I feel dogs have almost a sixth sense and sometimes perceive your threat. I feel like perhaps these dogs who supposedly attacked you perceived your threat to them and took offensive rather than defensive action.

Now some dogs will attack and guard without provocation. My Weimeraner will not allow any males into my yard unless I am outside with her. It is rare that she is outside without me, but sometimes if my wife or children goes out with her and I am gone, she will protect her and my children. One time I was trying to sell a vehicle and my family was outside while I was at work. Two men stopped to look at the vehicle, she almost chewed their leg off. But any other time, she would have run up to them and rolled over wanting her belly petted. It is instinct. Dogs protect their territory and sense predators and fear. Perhaps an adjustment in your attitude towards dogs and their owners would improve your interaction with the canines and their owners.

Just my opinion though with over 30 years experience with dogs.

Dogs are actually very random as to who they bite, especially unprovoked. I've known more than one child who was severely bitten by a strange dog that they only wished to befriend the animal, at least until such time as it started tearing chunks of flesh off them. Anyway, when a dog charges me from behind, and I didn't even know the d*mned thing was there until its charge was already underway, my "attitude" towards it can hardly be the determinative

I have a right to hike marked trails on public lands. Dogs belonging to retards who won't keep them from being in a position to bite other people on public land have no right to bite me unprovoked. The dogs and their owners are the ones who need to make changes in their behavior.

SGT Rock
05-04-2008, 13:57
I have never thru hiked, but still have quite a few miles of trail as well as walking close to home behind me. I find that 99.99% of the dogs I have encountered to be very friendly. I have been around dogs my entire life and have formed the opinion that dogs are only viscous and attack when they feel threatened. Have you ever thought that perhaps the dogs who supposedly attacked you felt threatened by you somehow. Threat to a dog does not always mean hitting them with or swinging a stick at them. I feel dogs have almost a sixth sense and sometimes perceive your threat. I feel like perhaps these dogs who supposedly attacked you perceived your threat to them and took offensive rather than defensive action.

Now some dogs will attack and guard without provocation. My Weimeraner will not allow any males into my yard unless I am outside with her. It is rare that she is outside without me, but sometimes if my wife or children goes out with her and I am gone, she will protect her and my children. One time I was trying to sell a vehicle and my family was outside while I was at work. Two men stopped to look at the vehicle, she almost chewed their leg off. But any other time, she would have run up to them and rolled over wanting her belly petted. It is instinct. Dogs protect their territory and sense predators and fear. Perhaps an adjustment in your attitude towards dogs and their owners would improve your interaction with the canines and their owners.

Just my opinion though with over 30 years experience with dogs.
Id rather not turn this into another dog thread, but I have seen dogs get aggressive for no good reason. I've seen dogs encircle children - the dogs had to approach the kid not the other way around. I agree about the territory aspect, but when the dog decides the trail, camp, or whatever has become their territory they can act as though a person is entering their space with no real reason to act that way other than a misguided sense of instinct combined with an inappropriate application of that instinct to the situation. As for sixth sense it really doesn't bear out. Civil rights workers in the 60s that were attacked by dogs probably had nothing against the dogs until they got attacked.

Anyway, lets get back to talking trail and not try to blame MS for getting attacked by a dog when you didn't see what predicated it.

minnesotasmith
05-04-2008, 14:01
I'm just speaking to appropriate shelter density and bringing up a point I mentioned earliier.

MS, I agree with Two Speed that this trail system is probably well within your skills. I just recall from your hike you had problems with the "standards" of trail maintenance that you found on the AT. My experience with the PT (though a little dated) is they were intentionally not grooming the trail up to the AT standards - though they seem to be adding shelters.

But once you get to the end of the PT you will have to hit the BMT. They have a whole other management philosophy which is very anti-shelter and one of a more wild trail experience. Their idea of a wild trail makes the AT look like a groomed city park.

I point all that out because of your past statements about how the ATC was letting things go - well if you go this way you will see a lot worse. But just be advised it was meant to be like that. Personally I think you would like the experience and you would have a good time - as long as you forget all that stuff about what a trail should be like. If that sort of thing does really bother you, then the PT/BMT trail to the AT may annoy you so much that in interferes with your ability to have a good time.

Again, I think you can make it just fine. I encourage you to do this.

Whatever the PT and BMT are like, they're not for very long compared with the AT. Plus, with the time of year I'd be passing through there, ticks from neglected trail maintenance shouldn't be be much of an issue, I expect.
Anyway, I would want to hit Amicalola at a good clip, something approaching 9-10 mpd most days so I'd have a fair shot at thruing in 5 months. As there's nothing like hiking to get you in shape for it, I figure that hiking the PT as an immediate prelude would up my chances. Plus, it looks like an interesting trail, one I haven't had the good fortune to be on yet. :)

Bulldawg
05-04-2008, 14:04
Dogs are actually very random as to who they bite, especially unprovoked. I've known more than one child who was severely bitten by a strange dog that they only wished to befriend the animal, at least until such time as it started tearing chunks of flesh off them. Anyway, when a dog charges me from behind, and I didn't even know the d*mned thing was there until its charge was already underway, my "attitude" towards it can hardly be the determinative

I have a right to hike marked trails on public lands. Dogs belonging to retards who won't keep them from being in a position to bite other people on public land have no right to bite me unprovoked. The dogs and their owners are the ones who need to make changes in their behavior.

I agree you have a right to hike public trails. But by hiking these "public" lands you have to be willing to face the things that being in the public bring. If the "public" trail does not have a specific law stating "all dogs must be leashed" then you have to understand there is a certain risk you take by being on this "public" trail. The trail does belong to all of us, but not just one individual at a time. It belongs to the entire public, and that includes the public's pets.

But I do disagree that dogs are random as to whom they bite. I two have seen and heard of children attacked by dogs. While it is horrible and a tragedy, I will bet both the dog and the child did not have proper dog training. Anyone in the public who would bring an untrained dog onto a trail does deserve to face the consequences of doing so, up to have his animal put down. But I have to say again, I have never ran into a dog or dogs such as you speak of on the trail. And I find it awfully hard to believe that you were simply walking along the trail and some dog just came chasing you down from behind and attacked you.

I just finished a section here in Georgia and saw 3 dogs. Two were unleashed. One came running up to me as I met him and his owner on the trail. Now had my attitude been one where I thought every single running dog was an attacking dog, I would have taken a defensive stance, thus placing the dog on the defensive as well. But the dog came running up to me and laid down at my feet wanting to play.

It is all attitude and approach here. Much like the determining factors in whether you will finish and enjoy a PT-BMT-AT hike. Attitude and approach here, attitude and approach.

Bulldawg
05-04-2008, 14:06
Id rather not turn this into another dog thread, but I have seen dogs get aggressive for no good reason. I've seen dogs encircle children - the dogs had to approach the kid not the other way around. I agree about the territory aspect, but when the dog decides the trail, camp, or whatever has become their territory they can act as though a person is entering their space with no real reason to act that way other than a misguided sense of instinct combined with an inappropriate application of that instinct to the situation. As for sixth sense it really doesn't bear out. Civil rights workers in the 60s that were attacked by dogs probably had nothing against the dogs until they got attacked.

Anyway, lets get back to talking trail and not try to blame MS for getting attacked by a dog when you didn't see what predicated it.

Agreed, I'm through feeding the situation.

Good luck on your PT-BMT-AT hike MS. I look forward to reading about it.

SGT Rock
05-04-2008, 14:07
Whatever the PT and BMT are like, they're not for very long compared with the AT. Plus, with the time of year I'd be passing through there, ticks from neglected trail maintenance shouldn't be be much of an issue, I expect.
Anyway, I would want to hit Amicalola at a good clip, something approaching 9-10 mpd most days so I'd have a fair shot at thruing in 5 months. As there's nothing like hiking to get you in shape for it, I figure that hiking the PT as an immediate prelude would up my chances. Plus, it looks like an interesting trail, one I haven't had the good fortune to be on yet. :)
Good deal. You just have to figure out which way you want to go when you hit the BMT. If you want to do the entire AT, then you have to go south and do about 75 miles to Springer which would make it a more normal AT hike. Or you could go north about 120 miles to Shuckstack - this would skip some of the AT which you may not want to do, but it I think that section of the BMT is nicer than the other route. Either way I'm available for help figuring it out if you want to hike it.

minnesotasmith
05-04-2008, 14:10
Good luck on your PT-BMT-AT hike MS. I look forward to reading about it.

It's not 100% that I'll go yet, though better than even. If my fiance gets in the family way, I can't reasonably be away that long IMO. Likewise, if I land a dream job (one that at least doubles my income), I'd rather work it for 5+ years, live simply, and then retire on investment earnings, hiking major LD hikes as much as annually, the way Baltimore Jack does.

SGT Rock
05-04-2008, 14:11
It's not 100% that I'll go yet, though better than even. If my fiance gets in the family way, I can't reasonably be away that long IMO. Likewise, if I land a dream job (one that at least doubles my income), I'd rather work it for 5+ years, live simply, and then retire on investment earnings, hiking major LD hikes as much as annually, the way Baltimore Jack does.
It's a good goal.

Bulldawg
05-04-2008, 14:12
Well there are ways to keep a fiance' from "getting in the family way"

minnesotasmith
05-04-2008, 14:15
Good deal. You just have to figure out which way you want to go when you hit the BMT. If you want to do the entire AT, then you have to go south and do about 75 miles to Springer which would make it a more normal AT hike. Or you could go north about 120 miles to Shuckstack - this would skip some of the AT which you may not want to do, but it I think that section of the BMT is nicer than the other route. Either way I'm available for help figuring it out if you want to hike it.

I'd definitely go the "purer" route, covering all of the AT. I don't want an asterisk on my goal of a 5-month end-to-end AT thruhike. After it, I'd want to start looking at other trails to thru, not to mention my two Alaska dream hikes. Now, if I ever got around to LD hiking in the East a 3rd time, then I'd focus on alternate trails like the BMT, Tuscarora, and maybe the trail that goes more into upstate NY/bypasses eastern PA.

minnesotasmith
05-04-2008, 14:16
Well there are ways to keep a fiance' from "getting in the family way"

That I WANT a family. I can hike for more years than I can sire children, not that the end of either option is breathing down my neck.

Two Speed
05-04-2008, 15:09
On the issue of moving the southern terminus of the AT . . .Sheesh, someone's always gotta get these things back on subject, don't they.

Well, if you want to play that way . . .

I agree with you, for slightly different reasons.

I don't think keeping the southern terminus of the AT on Springer makes any other trail a lesser or greater experience. They're all good hiking and should be enjoyed for what they are, not what some other trail is.

Two Speed
05-04-2008, 15:11
Oh, Minnie, if you promise to keep your mouth shut I'll even shuttle you to Bull Gap to kick your trip off.

Of course there'll be a wild and viscous Benji look alike in the back of the cab. :cool:

minnesotasmith
05-04-2008, 15:23
Oh, Minnie, if you promise to keep your mouth shut I'll even shuttle you to Bull Gap to kick your trip off.

Of course there'll be a wild and viscous Benji look alike in the back of the cab. :cool:

You do know I'll be bringing my bear spray the whole way this time? :rolleyes:

I would think you might WANT to hear my best trail stories, like the one-eyed bobcat or the goose that fell in love with a hiker... :D

I'd be coming from either Atlanta or (more likely) NW FL, FWIW, unless I took public transportation directly from out west. That part's not nailed down.

Two Speed
05-04-2008, 15:30
You do know I'll be bringing my bear spray the whole way this time? :rolleyes:I got a cure for that.
I would think you might WANT to hear my best trail stories, like the one-eyed bobcat or the goose that fell in love with a hiker... :DNo, I wouldn't.
I'd be coming from either Atlanta or (more likely) NW FL, FWIW, unless I took public transportation directly from out west. That part's not nailed down.If you're coming from Atlanta I can help. All you gotta do is keep your mouth shut. Well, that and not hassle my dog.

Cuffs
05-04-2008, 15:34
Oh geez...
I just love the way people who have no idea what they are talking about spout off like they actually do know...

Sgt Rock is just about right on with all his comments. I do have to ask tho, Rock, what was the southern & northern termini when you hiked in 2000?

Water... it is an issue. There is a 12 mile stretch with none. Be prepared.

Ticks... they are here year round. Deal with it.

Resupply... the store at Cheaha state park will take them with prior notice. Or pre plan a ride (hard to get a hitch) into Heflin to the little grocery store. But here too, be prepared, they take cash and local checks only, no plastic.

Blazing. All of the AL section is good to go. Cannot speak for GA. Yes, some of the Cheaha Wilderness was blazed, and it was done with the blessing of the Forest Service (due to tourons getting screwed up in there.)

Dogs... yes, they are out there. Some even get dropped off in trailhead trash cans. Yes, just ask Hammock Hanger.

Anything else?

minnesotasmith
05-04-2008, 15:36
...and not hassle my dog.

If it doesn't try to chew on me or f with my stuff, I don't care either way on them. (If it's friendly and a breed I have a soft spot for, like a Husky, Malamute, Scottish Terrier, etc., I'll likely play with it if it's okay with the owner.)

minnesotasmith
05-04-2008, 15:39
Oh geez...
I just love the way people who have no idea what they are talking about spout off like they actually do know...



Were you talking about my tentative assessment of the Pinhoti, or about what to expect from loose dogs along the whole AT?

Re the Pinhoti, I was mainly telling what impressions the Pinhoti website had given me from an hour's skimming, and was asking if those were correct.

SGT Rock
05-04-2008, 15:43
Sgt Rock is just about right on with all his comments. I do have to ask tho, Rock, what was the southern & northern termini when you hiked in 2000?


The southern end was Rt77, as I understand it they have added about 15 miles to the south now. The north end was US 278. When I hiked it there were some flags going north for the extension, but I don't think that end was opened up yet - as I understand it they have added about 15 miles to the north end as well. I just pulled out my maps from then and I only see three shelters.

minnesotasmith
05-04-2008, 15:43
Oh geez...
I just love the way people who have no idea what they are talking about spout off like they actually do know...



Were you talking about how loose dogs are along the AT as a whole, or my tentative assessment of what hiking the Pinhoti apparently would be like?

I tried to be very clear that I know little directly about it, that my impressions of it were based primarily on an hour's skimming the Pinhoti Trail website. Now, I do have fair experience with the climate around it (one of my grad schools was within 2 hours of the PT in AL), but that's a small fraction of what there is to know about the PT.

Cuffs
05-04-2008, 15:47
Youre assuming again... and you know what happens when people assume...

Two Speed
05-04-2008, 15:55
Cuffs, I'm glad you joined the conversation, because you've probably got the best and most recent information on the Alabama Pinhoti.
If it doesn't try to chew on me or f with my stuff, I don't care either way on them. (If it's friendly and a breed I have a soft spot for, like a Husky, Malamute, Scottish Terrier, etc., I'll likely play with it if it's okay with the owner.)Minnie, try to understand: the dog has been around me a lot longer than you have or are likely to be. If it's a choice of dropping someone off on the side of a road would you like to guess who's getting out of the truck?

minnesotasmith
05-04-2008, 15:59
Cuffs, I'm glad you joined the conversation, because you've probably got the best and most recent information on the Alabama Pinhoti.Minnie, try to understand: the dog has been around me a lot longer than you have or are likely to be. If it's a choice of dropping someone off on the side of a road would you like to guess who's getting out of the truck?

Repeatedly feminizing my trailname not a good sign for us, either.

Two Speed
05-04-2008, 16:01
Life's tough, ain't it?

Cuffs
05-04-2008, 16:01
The southern end was Rt77, as I understand it they have added about 15 miles to the south now. The north end was US 278. When I hiked it there were some flags going north for the extension, but I don't think that end was opened up yet - as I understand it they have added about 15 miles to the north end as well. I just pulled out my maps from then and I only see three shelters.

WOW! You need to come back and hike it again! The AL section is +-140 miles now! A will grow again by about another 12 miles (of woods trail) in the near future! Technically, the s. end is Flagg Mtn, but its still a road walk for quite a ways.

Theres 18 miles on the south you need to do, and about 10 miles on the northern end that would be new to you!

SGT Rock
05-04-2008, 16:04
WOW! You need to come back and hike it again! The AL section is +-140 miles now! A will grow again by about another 12 miles (of woods trail) in the near future! Technically, the s. end is Flagg Mtn, but its still a road walk for quite a ways.

Theres 18 miles on the south you need to do, and about 10 miles on the northern end that would be new to you!
I do need to come back and hike it - totally agreed. I think it would be a good hike to add to my re-hab plan ;)

Hey, about that guide you mentioned when we talked - any idea when it is going to be in some draft form? And, you said you had some notes from my BMT guide. I did go back and do a spell check (:D) but any AAR comments you have would be appreciated.

Two Speed
05-04-2008, 16:07
The Alabama section was sweet when I hiked in December '06, and it's probably gotten better. One thing: Barney and I hoofed from the trail to Heflin and back. Three or four miles one way IIRC. Wasn't my favorite part of the hike, but doable.

Cuffs
05-04-2008, 16:09
OH TS! So sorry you had to do that! I know that could not have been enjoyable!

When I thru'd it last year, I did educate the folks that own the HOJO in Heflin about hikers. While they dont offer a special rate, they at least understand and expect to see hikers in the future. They do have a coin laundry machine too.

Two Speed
05-04-2008, 18:29
OH TS! So sorry you had to do that! I know that could not have been enjoyable . . . Wasn't that bad. In point of fact I found the road walks between Cave Spring and Dalton to be more of a PITA. I'm looking forward to the section north of Calhoun, just trying to figure out where to get off the BMT when I do it. Dyer Gap looks kinda awkward.

Bulldawg
05-04-2008, 19:53
Wasn't that bad. In point of fact I found the road walks between Cave Spring and Dalton to be more of a PITA. I'm looking forward to the section north of Calhoun, just trying to figure out where to get off the BMT when I do it. Dyer Gap looks kinda awkward.

Let's plan a little Pinhoti Trek in good ole Gerogia in late summer or early fall TS?? Maybe a 25 or 30 mile 3 day weekend trek?

Two Speed
05-05-2008, 06:39
Well, for starters, how about Labor Day north of Calhoun?

Bulldawg
05-05-2008, 08:15
What is it always with the holiday weekends that my wife has crap planned for me already?

Two Speed
05-05-2008, 08:25
Possibly she's aware of your tendency to scamper away to the woods on three day weekends, and is taking steps to manage that?

Bulldawg
05-05-2008, 11:29
Possibly she's aware of your tendency to scamper away to the woods on three day weekends, and is taking steps to manage that?

No I mean Bishop Two Speed's tendency to want to hike on these weekends when the wife has crap planned. I usually work those holidays like that so I can take a day off later of my choosing. We don't all have a cushy job that is closed on those holidays.:D:D

KnowledgeEngine
05-05-2008, 13:12
I visited their website at http://www.pinhotitrailalliance.org/ and read they wanted the background music from the website to come out of outdoor solar powered speakers by all trail improvements.

Cuffs
05-05-2008, 13:15
a better site for state wide hiking is www.hikealabama.org (http://www.hikealabama.org). While it does not have all the trail data for the Pinhoti, it will very soon and for most of the trails in the state!

sofaking
05-05-2008, 13:23
I visited their website at http://www.pinhotitrailalliance.org/ and read they wanted the background music from the website to come out of outdoor solar powered speakers by all trail improvements.
that is the most annoying, john tesh wearing some birkenstocks, i accidently had my speakers turned up too much and the dog looked at me funny, cacaphony i have had the displeasure to hear in quite awhile...:eek:

Cuffs
05-05-2008, 13:26
Just want to add that I am not affiliated with PTA.

Frosty
05-05-2008, 15:00
While it does not have all the trail data for the Pinhoti, it will very soon and for most of the trails in the state!Oh my goodness!

minnesotasmith
05-07-2008, 14:33
Let's say I thruhiked the Pinhoti NOBO in typical January weather. I would expect to do so at a level of fitness that would average 7-8 miles a day in Georgia. If I wanted to get to Amicalola by Feb. 14th, when would I need to be in Sylacauga?

Cuffs
05-07-2008, 14:42
You do the math... 190 mile of PT + the BMT section... quit waiting on everyone else to do it for you...

minnesotasmith
05-07-2008, 14:45
You do the math... 190 mile of PT + the BMT section... quit waiting on everyone else to do it for you...
I can do the math easily enough. What I don't have is a feel for how fast the PT hikes relative to the AT. That's why I asked the question I did, the way I did.
Anyone who has hiked the Pinhoti, I'd truly appreciate an educated guess answer to my question.

Cuffs
05-07-2008, 14:50
You said it yourself... 7-8 miles per day... add it up... (and yes, I have thru'd the AL portion...)

Bulldawg
05-07-2008, 15:24
Hilarious!!

Bishop TS, will still on for Pinhoti action??

Two Speed
05-07-2008, 15:29
Thought you bailed out, or seeing as we were in preliminary planning, pre-bailed.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
05-07-2008, 16:06
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/eatdrink033.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

Frolicking Dinosaurs
05-07-2008, 16:12
No can do - link (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=36577)

sofaking
05-07-2008, 16:43
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/eatdrink033.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)
where do you get these great emoticons?

Bulldawg
05-07-2008, 16:46
I'll help the poor guy out. Let's see, did you say it was 300 miles, the Pinhoti? So if you can average let's say at least 10 miles per day, you need 3 zero days for rest and resupply, and let's not forget the 10 miles you will lose over the course of these 300 miles running backward the wrong way away from all those pesky dogs. If these are the general facts, I can positively say you need to add 35 days to your hike. There, now you have it. Let's move on please!!

sofaking
05-07-2008, 16:47
hmmm, maybe ms and wd can get together and start up the bestest darn hiking site ever...it'll have deep, introspective articles ,(as long as you subscribe to one of the two allowable opinions) and they'll have an online karoake feature...

MOWGLI
05-07-2008, 17:02
Let's say I thruhiked the Pinhoti NOBO in typical January weather. I would expect to do so at a level of fitness that would average 7-8 miles a day in Georgia. If I wanted to get to Amicalola by Feb. 14th, when would I need to be in Sylacauga?

7-8 miles a day? What? Are you planning on crawling on all fours, or will you be carrying a piano on your back? Haven't you been living in Colorado? Oh, Mountain Man of legendary repute? :D

SGT Rock
05-07-2008, 17:14
Let's say I thruhiked the Pinhoti NOBO in typical January weather. I would expect to do so at a level of fitness that would average 7-8 miles a day in Georgia. If I wanted to get to Amicalola by Feb. 14th, when would I need to be in Sylacauga?
I do not totally know your answer. But here is a reference:
http://www.hikealabama.org/images/AL-NW_GA_Trails_Handbook.pdf

I don't know much about the GA Pinhoti other than where the north end connects to the BMT (Mile point 69.4 from Springer). The AL Pihoti is now up to about 137 miles, so that will take you about 15-20 days to hike at your speed.

So at the speed you want to hike, it will take you about 7-9 days to do the BMT.

So just those sections are going to add about 22-29 days to your hike. I imagine it will be about 160 miles and about 18-22 days for that. So total extra hiking at your speeds will be 40-51 days. That means you need to hit the start at about 1 January.

minnesotasmith
05-07-2008, 17:40
7-8 miles a day? What? Are you planning on crawling on all fours, or will you be carrying a piano on your back? Haven't you been living in Colorado? Oh, Mountain Man of legendary repute? :D

I may have someone with me who won't hike very fast at first.

Alligator
05-07-2008, 17:54
Please delete the previous 10 posts as not only irrelevant, but of no use or interest to anyone reading this thread drawn here by the subject title.Sorry, can't help you out.

Hikerhead
05-07-2008, 18:58
Look, MS... here's the deal. The Pinhoti has rocks, ticks, dogs, rednecks, locals, no water, no color, hills, 4 different blazings, and only a few shelters. From your postings, this is not what you are looking for, dont bother with it.

How many rolls of toilet paper is MS going to have pack for this one??

Plus, them dogs are really mean down that away. And no water???

This it too funny. :)

saimyoji
05-11-2008, 11:04
How do you guys use the invisible text? I can't see half the posts on this thread. :rolleyes:

Tin Man
05-11-2008, 12:04
I may have someone with me who won't hike very fast at first.

You bringing a dog? :-?

Captain
05-11-2008, 19:20
id support an extension like the IAT but i believe that springer in Georgia should remain the south terminus of the AT itself and for all you liberals out there remember just cause its tradition doesn't mean it HAS to be changed lest we live in a" world controlled by archaic cave paintings" true story someone actually said that exact phrase to me

minnesotasmith
05-12-2008, 00:23
You bringing a dog? :-?

The woman in my life. She's heard all my Trail stories, looked at all my pictures, and been fully involved in sending out trail magic in care of hostels, and thinks that an AT thruhike would be fun. She's very outdoors-oriented, very organized, and handles privation and the unexpected well, so I think she'll do fine.