Backpackers With Guns - Chattanooga Newspaper

[Daddy Longlegs]

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2008/may/05/chattanooga-hikers-packing-concealed-heat/

This is an on the front page of the Chattanooga Times newspaper.

[sofaking]

sounds fabricated. stupid picture, retarded topic.

[TFin04]

It was a well written article until the idiot Mr. Dawson Wheeler put his two cents in. He is clearly uneducated about firearms. I don't think any of the quotes from him held any merit.

There are a ton of hikers who walk the AT armed each year. You probably pass quite a few of them and don't even know it. If a hiker feels it is worth the weight for the added protection, that is their choice, not anyone elses. If you don't want to carry a gun I won't tell you otherwise, but don't tread on my freedoms and tell me I can't carry mine. It's a personal decision, nothing more.

[MamaCat]

Wouldn't mess with her. Of course, I wouldn't mess with most females on the AT, myself included. We are one tough bunch!

[NICKTHEGREEK]

sounds fabricated. stupid picture, retarded topic.
I concur

[Lilred]

I love the recommendation to hike the trail during the daytime. That way, the would be assailant can see you better than if you hike at night.

[TFin04]

I concur

You're both out of touch. This topic should be no different then someone choosing to carry a tarp vs tent, or to haul in a full mess kit vs a small alcohol stove.

It's just another personal decision on what they want to pack on the trail. Don't want it yourself? That's fine with me. Don't discredit those who do though.

[sofaking]

You're both out of touch. This topic should be no different then someone choosing to carry a tarp vs tent, or to haul in a full mess kit vs a small alcohol stove.

It's just another personal decision on what they want to pack on the trail. Don't want it yourself? That's fine with me. Don't discredit those who do though.
i read the article, stated my opinion of it. to me the article sounded reactionary and contrived, something to spin off of the tragic event in ga.

[take-a-knee]

Mr Wheeler is an ignoramus. Ten-pound handgun? Then again he may not have actually uttered such an inanity because a hoplophobic female was quoting him, and we all know they aren't biased and never screw up a story.

[stumpy]

What a silly pic!

[SGT Rock]

He must be refering to a .600 Nitro: http://www.vincelewis.net/60magnum.html


Nice gun to backpack with - NOT.

[Lyle]

What a silly pic!

I agree. If she's going to hike with gun drawn like that, she best ditch one of her trekking poles.

Reactionary article and attitude.

[Tipi Walter]

Being out in the woods is "an invitation to disaster?" What woods are they talking about, North Vietnam? The picture looked faked and the pack looked empty, but the lady was looking good:)

Aren't we told as backpackers to take only items we use everyday? Why carry something for years and never use it? Dead weight.

On the other hand, I'm a guy and see this more as a female issue. I love to backpack and live in the woods, so I try to put myself in a woman's shoes(boots), how would I act? First off, I'd be much more secretive and observant, my weapons would be a keen set of eyes and a certain set of stealth protocols: Don't camp near roads, avoid all shelters, when parking at a trailhead go into the woods when no one's watching and wait to see who follows or just stay in the car until everything looks "normal", take a little more effort to camp off the trail and possibly stealth-camp, etc.

I think a woman should be able to backpack solo and camp everywhere just like I do. Since a miniscule group of testosterone jackals(predatory men)might see them as victims just means they need to be extra cautious and hit the trail with an extra antenna I hardly ever have to use. It's a sad fact that a solo woman might have to act like she's an escaped prisoner of war or trespassing on private land when she hits the woods and she has to go into a certain defensive mind-set, but if it helps to keep her safe and outdoors, do it.

BTW, if it was me as a solo woman backpacker, I'd carry something to stop a person but not lethal, taser/phaser/stungun/cattle prod/mircotech halo(might prove lethal), etc. I'd have it handy and would be more prone to use it instead of a gun.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Back to the topic of handguns while backpacking - in the past, I thought carrying a weapon was just too much weight. However, since getting older and being injured & rendered unable to run at all or to make the sort of defensive maneuvers (she-dino has a martial arts background) I was able to in the past, I feel the weight of a weapon is justified. As others have noted, a weapon buried in a backpack won't work.... mine is concealed, readily available at all times and in the hands of a expert marksman with extensive training and a carry permit - the He-Dino. Were I to need carry one myself, I would take some more training and get a closed carry permit.

[Odd Thomas]

Why would you need a gun? Why not just reach in to your pack and grab the axe? :p

[sasquatch2014]

I don't understand all the talk about handguns. Most people are not a good enough shot to hit anything and they use is limited. If you are going to carry somthing heavy it should have multipal uses..... now a small shotgun (sawed off of course to fit better in the pack) can be used to cut wood, kill shelter mice, cut down weeds, or after unloaded can be used to drive tent stakes. See a true multi purpose tool.:-?

[TFin04]

Flawed logic my man.



Why carry something for years and never use it? Dead weight.


Because it very well could save your life one day. Do you use a first aid kit every day? Do you use your seat belt every day? Do you use a fire extinguisher every day?

No, but you still have all of them available because of the protection they offer. This world is crazy and crime happens everywhere.

Will you or I ever use a firearm in self defense? Probably not. I bet that girl who was murdered (who did fight to the bitter end, she was not going down without a fight) could have used a gun to save her life. Would packing an extra pound all the days before that one been worth it? You bet, 'cause she'd still be with us today.

[Rifleman]

Just the simple fact of all the media attention will cause the psychopaths to ask themselves, "is this person I want to assault, rape or murder carrying something that could kill me? Maybe I'd better pick an easier target."
Deterrence. It can be a beautiful thing.:sun
R.

[Daddy Longlegs]

"Though crime in America’s national parks has decreased in the last 10 years, 384 incidents including killings, rapes, robberies, kidnappings and aggravated assaults occurred in national parks in 2006, according to the National Park Service...Since 1973, 10 killings and 10 rapes have been reported on or around the 2,176-mile-long Appalachian Trail,"

Any crime is bad but what are the odds of something happing to anyone? You have a lot bigger change of something bad happing to you on any street in America then you do on the trail. Do we want more people carring guns on the trail which could mean more crime? or how about more guns on the street?

Someone who is worried about this should never hike alone cause there is safety in numbers.

[TFin04]

Do we want more people carring guns on the trail which could mean more crime? or how about more guns on the street?

More guns in any given area has never resulted in more crime. We see time and time again that the more guns in a society the more safe it is. Guns do not just go off by themselves and they do not magically cause someone to become a criminal. The people who are criminals and who intend to use a gun illegally will never listen to gun control laws. They are criminals for a reason, they break laws. This is why there has never been a correlation between strict gun control and low crime. Look at Chicago. Some of the most strict gun laws in the nation, yet some of the highest (and still rising) crime.



Someone who is worried about this should never hike alone cause there is safety in numbers.

I don't live in fear but I do take measures to protect myself and loved ones. Good life insurance, safe car, wear my seatbelt, have first aid training, always carry a cell phone, and have the tools and training to defend myself from crime. It's just plain being responsible.

[sofaking]

Flawed logic my man.



Because it very well could save your life one day. Do you use a first aid kit every day? Do you use your seat belt every day? Do you use a fire extinguisher every day?

No, but you still have all of them available because of the protection they offer. This world is crazy and crime happens everywhere.

Will you or I ever use a firearm in self defense? Probably not. I bet that girl who was murdered (who did fight to the bitter end, she was not going down without a fight) could have used a gun to save her life. Would packing an extra pound all the days before that one been worth it? You bet, 'cause she'd still be with us today.
that is flawed logic. packing a handgun will more than likely do you no good unless it is on your person, a gun in a pack is just some more gear that you would need to stop, unbuckle your pack and dig out.i suppose you could ask an attacker to 'hold on a sec, let me get my gun out'... the scumbag that murdered meredith either came across as not being a threat or took her by surprise. she-dino pointed out that he-dino carries concealed, on his PERSON, which is the the only logical way to carry a handgun unless you carry openly for reasons other than self protection. law enforcement, military, hunting, etc... self defense (on or off of the trail) is not some novel, news worthy topic to be contemplated just because terrible things can and do happen, or to be re-visited on the coattails of a recent tragedy. if you feel the need to carry, the only responsible way is to do it legally, with the required training, and to not make it an issue to others around you. i wish meredith would have beat that degenerate senseless and have escaped, but claiming she 'would still be here with us if she had a gun' is foolish and misdirected. the day that i need to worry about sharing shelters or tent sites with a bunch of scared pistol packing hairdressers and reactionary vigilantes is the day i will quit backpacking the a.t... i've been enjoying the trail for almost half of my life and have volunteered almost twenty weeks time to it's construction and maintenance, and i hope that issues of self defense never become a reality, but i will never feel the need to carry a gun while backpacking, unless i'm hunting- far from the a.t. and hopefully all other people, other hunters especially.

[TFin04]

I don't want to create a huge debate, but I do want to address a few things here.


packing a handgun will more than likely do you no good unless it is on your person, a gun in a pack is just some more gear that you would need to stop, unbuckle your pack and dig out.i suppose you could ask an attacker to 'hold on a sec, let me get my gun out'...

Quit assuming I store a handgun in the bottom of my pack where it is useless. I won't get into details but it is hidden, comfortable, secure and accessible to me when I need it.



the scumbag that murdered meredith either came across as not being a threat or took her by surprise.

Read the reports. She had seen him before and she fought a long hard battle with him. She certainly had the time to draw and fire a pistol.



she-dino pointed out that he-dino carries concealed, on his PERSON, which is the the only logical way to carry a handgun unless you carry openly for reasons other than self protection.

Nobody is recommending you carry any other way.


if you feel the need to carry, the only responsible way is to do it legally, with the required training, and to not make it an issue to others around you.

Again, nobody is recommending otherwise. I do not tell anyone in person that I carry, and the only reason I am open about it here is because I don't know any of you and I do not have my real or trail name associated anywhere with this site.



i wish meredith would have beat that degenerate senseless and have escaped, but claiming she 'would still be here with us if she had a gun' is foolish and misdirected.
Having the tools to defend yourself is not foolish and misdirected. Merideth was a fighter. She was well trained in her interests (hiking) and had she been shown the light of how to shoot a handgun properly I think she would have been plenty capable of defending herself. She had the willpower and the time to do it. That is all that is really needed.



the day that i need to worry about sharing shelters or tent sites with a bunch of scared pistol packing hairdressers and reactionary vigilantes is the day i will quit backpacking the a.t...

Guess what buddy....you already are. Your terrible description of responsible people is off base, but guns are out there.

That is the beauty of concealed carry. You do not have to tell anyone and you have no clue if the nice looking little old granny is ready to defend herself. If you think you've never shared the trail or a table at your local coffe hangout with someone who was carrying a gun you're a fool.



i've been enjoying the trail for almost half of my life and have volunteered almost twenty weeks time to it's construction and maintenance, and i hope that issues of self defense never become a reality, but i will never feel the need to carry a gun while backpacking, unless i'm hunting- far from the a.t. and hopefully all other people, other hunters especially.

Thank you for your devotion to the AT. It has helped many many people I am sure.

The facts are the issue of self defense IS a reality, you are just refusing to ignore it.

I am not trying to push my views on anyone but the sad fact is most people don't 'wake up' to these things until something terrible happens to them. Sometimes it is too late to learn that lesson. Nobody elses life is more important than mine or my loved ones. I will not allow somebody looking to cause harm to make me an easy victim. If you want to go through life hoping it will never happen to you that is your choice. When it does go down, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

I will no longer post in this thread. I am not looking to bicker or pursuade anyone. Just don't rip on people who make the legal and safe choice to defend theirself, wherever they may be. If anyone would like to continue this, please PM me. As you can see I'm passionate about this issue and have no trouble holding a mature and factual debate about it.

Take care.

[TFin04]

The facts are the issue of self defense IS a reality, you are just refusing to ignore it.
I can't edit. That should have said:

The facts are the issue of self defense IS a reality, you are just refusing to accept it.

[Lone Wolf]

no ****. another gun thread. :rolleyes: you either carry or you don't carry. end of story

[sofaking]

or you feel the need to convince everybody else that they are foolish and ignoring reality because of a poorly reported article in the chattanooga times

[SGT Rock]

no ****. another gun thread. :rolleyes: you either carry or you don't carry. end of story
You are basically correct.

[TFin04]

or you feel the need to convince everybody else that they are foolish and ignoring reality because of a poorly reported article in the chattanooga times

It has nothing to do with that specific article, that's just the one that started this thread. So far nothing you've written is based on fact.

You clearly like to have the last word so I'll let you get your final sarcasitc jab in here. I really am done here now. Have at it.

[taildragger]

http://media.timesfreepress.com/img/photos/2008/05/04/Park_Gun_inside.jpg

I'd hike with her ;)

[taildragger]

Also, how come no one is talking about how obscenely large her pack is.

My loaded whitney isn't that large

[Tipi Walter]

Also, how come no one is talking about how obscenely large her pack is.

My loaded whitney isn't that large

Yeah, I thought at first that she stole my Mystery Ranch G6000 load-hauler. She's probably on her way to shoot the outfitter who sold that pack to her. It also looks like her possible assailant might be coming down out of a tree towards her.

[Mags]

no ****. another gun thread. :rolleyes: you either carry or you don't carry. end of story

Add my voice to the chorus as well.

Now..all of you: **** and GBTW. :D


No gun, no cell phone, no SPOT. I do take wine... Gotta have priorities.

[Tipi Walter]

And doing a nighthike with a loaded pistol at the ready is probably wise, you can never be too safe and anyone you meet on the trail at this hour should probably be shot. Is that a headlamp coming up on me or a laser-sighted pistol with target-acquisition??? BLAM!! Ask questions later.

[SGT Rock]

I usually hiked at night with a rifle. The pistol was only for back up and opening cans.

[Mags]

Now that I think about a pistol IS dual use for lightweight backpacking.

Those tent stakes can be a PITA to bang in at times, esp. in hardened camp sites.

[SGT Rock]

Maybe a special round? I know we used to use blanks to propel cleaning rods. Maybe there is a good technique in that for tent stakes or even bear bagging?

[weary]

Only an extremely dumb attacker has any chance of being shot on the trail, once everyone decides to carry. If anything, once villains can expect everyone to be carrying, everyone will be in greater danger -- not from carriers, but from attackers. To render a gun carrier defenseless, he need only wait until the carrier is distracted by a pretty mountain scene, a sunrise, or wild creature and bat them unconscious with one blow from a stick.

If everyone carries, potential victims will no longer have the option of talk, or of catching the attacker unawares, or simply fighting back. Well, the exception will be the villain who announces in advance that he plans an attack. I'll let the carriers decide how often that might happen.

I've been wandering around woods, mountains, and streets for 79 years as of yesterday. I've managed many, many thousands of miles without a gun -- well except during deer and duck seasons, and two years as an Army MP -- and I may continue the practice a bit longer.

I rarely run across any creatures that seem particularly threatening, though I was tempted a few years ago by a woodchuck that was nibbling my green beans.

Weary

[SGT Rock]

Pleae leave the politics in the political forum.

[Foyt20]

I think that everyone should start wearing a helmet when they hike. Then no one can smack you on the head.

[sofaking]

kevlar bags so the newbie at the other end of the shelter doesn't wing you when he misses that damn mouse...

[SGT Rock]

Rat shot. Good idea.

[Frosty]

I don't want to create a huge debateUnless someone is holding a gun to your head, no one is forcing you to respond to everyone who has an opinion that does not coincide with your own. You said your piece the first time. The other 20 times you repeat it is useless. People either agree with you or they don't. If you don't want to debate, stop posting.

[sofaking]

Rat shot. Good idea.
we call it snake shot

[Odd Thomas]

no ****. another gun thread. :rolleyes: you either carry or you don't carry. end of story

I Quantum Carry. :p

[stumpy]

no ****. another gun thread. :rolleyes: you either carry or you don't carry. end of story


I guess I'm in the carry list:

too much food
too much water
too many clothes :D

[le loupe]

I don't understand all the talk about handguns. Most people are not a good enough shot to hit anything and they use is limited.

You know, I've never understood this comment. After all, everyday people are killed by handguns by people who are not "good enough to hit anything" and who never had "proper training" which i assume includes how to hit things besides safety.

I think everyone should be allowed to carry. Whether you do, is of course up to you.

[PJ 2005]

10 killings and 10 rapes since 1973? That's actually not a bad crime rate, especially when you consider that there are no police.

[Mags]

If you are going to exercise your right to bare arms, I suggest using at least SPF15. SPF30 would be better.

Or was it bear arms? (http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/jonfoote/dali/other/Beararms.jpg)

[jersey joe]

I guess I'm in the carry list:

too much food
too much water
too many clothes :D
Just an observation...it seems most of the pro gun hikers are from below the mason dixon line...

[greentick]

If you are going to exercise your right to bare arms, I suggest using at least SPF15. SPF30 would be better.

Or was it bear arms? (http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/jonfoote/dali/other/Beararms.jpg)

or arm bears?!!?!?

[taildragger]

Just an observation...it seems most of the pro gun hikers are from below the mason dixon line...

I think that a fair number of rural people anywhere have the same beliefs

[t-bor]

i hope some one shoots me while im walking by a shelter at night that would just make my hike

[sofaking]

quite a few inner city people are known to be pro gun too, at least dat's tha word on the skreet...

[taildragger]

i hope some one shoots me while im walking by a shelter at night that would just make my hike

Send me a PM if you ever hike the Ouachitas and I'll have it "arranged"

:sun

[Mags]

I do know that this urban and northern based, ethnic fraternal orginization (http://www.projo.com/extra/2007/mob/images/mob_main_385.jpg) is very pro 2nd amendment as well.

[leeki pole]

Just an observation...it seems most of the pro gun hikers are from below the mason dixon line...
And your conclusion is? :-?

[ToyYoda]

I'd rather just have a decent knife on my person.

Or just a bit of Bas Rutten.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNXRInrSSVU&NR=1

[le loupe]

Just an observation...it seems most of the pro gun hikers are from below the mason dixon line...


Rural cultures are still in touch with the realities of food production & harvest. often these peoples, hunt or farm and very familiar with the tools (guns included) required to prepare an animal for consumption. Therefore they are comfortable with guns.

More urban groups see the meat on their plate as a commodity to be purchased at the grocery store. They are less aware of the messy work required to prepare the flesh under the neatly wrapped celophane. having not hunted their own meat or slaughtered their own pig/cow they are much less comfortable with that work, including the use and ownership of guns.

[bloodmountainman]

The writer of this article needs to get a few facts straight. Miss Emerson's body WAS NOT found "in a remote area on the Applachian Trail".

[leeki pole]

Rural cultures are still in touch with the realities of food production & harvest. often these peoples, hunt or farm and very familiar with the tools (guns included) required to prepare an animal for consumption. Therefore they are comfortable with guns.

More urban groups see the meat on their plate as a commodity to be purchased at the grocery store. They are less aware of the messy work required to prepare the flesh under the neatly wrapped celophane. having not hunted their own meat or slaughtered their own pig/cow they are much less comfortable with that work, including the use and ownership of guns.
Excellent observation.

[Ramble~On]

10 killings and 10 rapes since 1973? That's actually not a bad crime rate, especially when you consider that there are no police.

True, consider the number of trail users compared to those who became victims - likely there are many more sexual assualts that never went reported-but the crime rate on the AT is low per year when compared to even a small town.

Any person male or female who would not go out hiking without their firearm ought to have at it. What you carry is on you-literally.
Yes, to carry a firearm along the AT will violate gun laws in numerous places.
This is a topic that almost always stirs serious debate.
Some people claim to be highly trained JUE JIT Suey Master Ninjas and claim that to carry a firearm is stupid and that a handgun means nothing.
--To those who know better...a handgun means everything and that peace of mind is what lets them enjoy their time out...
To each their own. It has always been my opinion that what you carry is none of my business.
Given the legal system in this country that is a revolving door for repeat criminals it is no wonder the number of folks who own "defensive" firearms.
Take the number of murders, rapes, thefts and assualts on the AT for any given one year period and compare that to the number of dog bites for the same period and it would appear that a serious cause for concern would be dogs...Oh, there's another can of worms.

[SGT Rock]

To each their own. It has always been my opinion that what you carry is none of my business..

I'll just add that a prudent person carrying a gun will also make sure it doesn't become someones business.

Just think about this - if you carry a gun, and you meet someone that doesn't know you and finds out you are carrying a gun...

Well, to this person you have now just become that wacko he is supposed to look out for. Chances are you will get turned into the local authorities by a normal person when they find out you have one.

[taildragger]

I'll just add that a prudent person carrying a gun will also make sure it doesn't become someones business.

Just think about this - if you carry a gun, and you meet someone that doesn't know you and finds out you are carrying a gun...

Well, to this person you have now just become that wacko he is supposed to look out for. Chances are you will get turned into the local authorities by a normal person when they find out you have one.

I always thought that letting people know that you carry increases the likelihood of you being assaulted, knocking someone out when they don't expect it isn't too hard, and a gun is an easy item to sell on the street.

[weary]

I do know that this urban and northern based, ethnic fraternal orginization (http://www.projo.com/extra/2007/mob/images/mob_main_385.jpg) is very pro 2nd amendment as well.
I'm very pro second amendment. I just temper my fervor with a bit of common sense. My argument is simple. It's silly to carry a firearm daily, when it has virtually zero chance of doing any good. I hear again and again about the many "secret" carriers on the trail. But when I ask for examples of a situation where carrying a firearm while hiking has been helpful, I'm greeted with nothing but silence.

The practice of carrying appears to me to have little to do with safety, and a lot to do with a strange secular religion, whose belief systems require carrying a firearm at all times to thwart imagined threats.

Weary

[Ramble~On]

I'll just add that a prudent person carrying a gun will also make sure it doesn't become someones business.

Just think about this - if you carry a gun, and you meet someone that doesn't know you and finds out you are carrying a gun...

Well, to this person you have now just become that wacko he is supposed to look out for. Chances are you will get turned into the local authorities by a normal person when they find out you have one.

Carrying a firearm anywhere at anytime entails a great deal of responsibility and is something that hopefully is carefully thought out and some training is involved.
There are those who are responsible and then there are those who are not.
Just as with dogs, alcohol, drugs, children, money etc etc....
I couldn't say whether or not I have met anyone on any trail who had a firearm - except of course for the obvious hunter..
I can't say for sure that if any of the victims of recent crimes had been armed the outcome would have been any different or worse the end result would be a criminal gaining possession of a firearm.

Hopefully anyone with a firearm is just as "normal" a person as anyone who would turn them in to local authorites. It may well be that the person who is turned in is carrying legally and is now thinking the person who turned him in is a "whacko"

[Mags]

I'm very pro second amendment. I just temper my fervor with a bit of common sense.


Not sure why you quoted me. I'm just a court jester. Maybe you are not old line New England stock and you are really a paisan? :D

I will say that carrying guns is a non-issue for most experienced LD hikers.

My grandfather, however, did carry a rifle for his long distance hike in Europe in the 1940s. He aqua blazed from Italy to S. France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dragoon), though. He apparently was not a purist.

[SGT Rock]

Carrying a firearm anywhere at anytime entails a great deal of responsibility and is something that hopefully is carefully thought out and some training is involved.
There are those who are responsible and then there are those who are not.
Just as with dogs, alcohol, drugs, children, money etc etc....
I couldn't say whether or not I have met anyone on any trail who had a firearm - except of course for the obvious hunter..
I can't say for sure that if any of the victims of recent crimes had been armed the outcome would have been any different or worse the end result would be a criminal gaining possession of a firearm.

Hopefully anyone with a firearm is just as "normal" a person as anyone who would turn them in to local authorites. It may well be that the person who is turned in is carrying legally and is now thinking the person who turned him in is a "whacko"
I agree with a lot of what you say. The point I am making is this: we know there are a few bad apples on the trail. If I were to meet someone that had a gun on the trail - they normally go to that first impression catagory of possible wacko over and above a non-armed person.

Now that assessment may be right or may be wrong. But think of it honestly. Someone you meet on the trail you never met before you find out is packing heat.

The logical thing to do is not confront them - that could lead to a situation you do not want to be in...

The next thing to think of is this: if you see someone on the trail that is armed and could do harm to some lone individual, you should report them to the proper authorities to question and verify that person's intent, authority, and background. This is not something that should be done by just any hiker. And, for the sake of other hikers, an armed person on the trail could be the next guy in the news for deeds done on the trail.

So imagine this next, you assume the guy is a good guy, or you question the guy and decide he is a nice enough fellow. Then two days later you hear some hiker disapeared on the trail. Then it turns out the nice fellow wasn't so nice after all. Ignoring the presence of a weapon, or assuming it away would help lead to this situation.

Now, if you think that is all just over thiking it. Mr Hilton was seen with just an Asp by many people prior to his abducting Meridith. Many people apparently thought he was suspisious but nothing was done about him until after it was too late. Replace Asp with gun and you may see what I mean.

So back to if you are a prudent carrier of a weapon. You try to make sure you don't get into this situation where people assume you are "that guy"

[Ramble~On]

I'm very pro second amendment. I just temper my fervor with a bit of common sense. My argument is simple. It's silly to carry a firearm daily, when it has virtually zero chance of doing any good. I hear again and again about the many "secret" carriers on the trail. But when I ask for examples of a situation where carrying a firearm while hiking has been helpful, I'm greeted with nothing but silence.

The practice of carrying appears to me to have little to do with safety, and a lot to do with a strange secular religion, whose belief systems require carrying a firearm at all times to thwart imagined threats.

Weary

:-? Something of weight (and responsibility) that is not used daily and has virtually zero chance of doing any good...
I do not know of any situation on the trail where a firearm being present had any outcome positive or negative.
I am one who feels that if having the firearm to protect against imagined threats allows one to venture out and enjoy the outdoors--that person should take it.. if over a period of time they realize that it's dead weight and stop taking it- great! if that never happens and they continue to carry it around...it's their business.
There are many threads on this topic and in most of them I have said that if I felt that I needed to carry a firearm on the trail it would be for dogs.
If vicious, unrestrained and uncontrolled dogs were so much of an issue I would go out and get my own big, bad dog and use it as protection from other dogs before I'd carry a gun while hiking.
I am not anti gun. I am not anti dog. I take neither with me hiking and I hike as much as I can as often as I can.

[Ramble~On]

I agree with you Rock. I see where you're coming from.
There's a saying "Go with your gut"

I'm sure I have met people on the trail who had firearms and I never knew it. I still have the opinion that what is inside your pack is not my business and fully agree that if there was an individual that just didn't fit in who had weapons of any kind it would be my responsibility to inform as many people as I could (including law enforcement) that my perception of the situation warranted alarm or suspicion. If I saw a gun on someone I'd likely let as many people know it was there as I could and I think that this is everyones responsibility and we all owe it to Meredith, Molly and everyone else.
- If the person with the weapon doesn't understand the cause for alarm and understand the perception of others than perhaps there is a serious issue with the person..If they were carrying legally the would have no issue and would likely do a better job in the future at keeping the firearm hidden or atleast they would better unstand the feeling of the people around them.
= Hopefully anyone with a firearm is just as "normal" a person as the next guy but given recent events I understand where Sgt Rock is coming from.

[SGT Rock]

I agree with you Rock. I see where you're coming from.
There's a saying "Go with your gut"

I'm sure I have met people on the trail who had firearms and I never knew it. I still have the opinion that what is inside your pack is not my business and fully agree that if there was an individual that just didn't fit in who had weapons of any kind it would be my responsibility to inform as many people as I could (including law enforcement) that my perception of the situation warranted alarm or suspicion. If I saw a gun on someone I'd likely let as many people know it was there as I could and I think that this is everyones responsibility and we all owe it to Meredith, Molly and everyone else.
- If the person with the weapon doesn't understand the cause for alarm and understand the perception of others than perhaps there is a serious issue with the person..If they were carrying legally the would have no issue and would likely do a better job in the future at keeping the firearm hidden or atleast they would better unstand the feeling of the people around them.
= Hopefully anyone with a firearm is just as "normal" a person as the next guy but given recent events I understand where Sgt Rock is coming from.
Totally agreed with what you are saying. I also think this point is important to people that talk about carrying and say that "folks will be glad I am out there". Well the truth is if people know you are carrying, to them you just became "that guy".

I think this is one of those things were if you are going to carry, talking about it ain't the best course of action. If I carry, I will be the only one that knows it. The last thing I am going to do is talk about it (internet or camp).

I think the really wise gun owners and carriers know that too.

[Ramble~On]

With that I couldn't agree more and 99 times out of 100 there will be a badge to go along with the gun.

[Long Island Ice Tea]

If you don't like guns, your middle name is probably nancy and your first name lawrence.

[ToyYoda]

Or you probably like long island iced teas.

Just sayin'.. pot calling the kettle black on that one. Do you sip them during a nice summer breeze in your new sun dress? :sun

Just messing with you...

:banana

[weary]

:-? Something of weight (and responsibility) that is not used daily and has virtually zero chance of doing any good...
I do not know of any situation on the trail where a firearm being present had any outcome positive or negative.
I am one who feels that if having the firearm to protect against imagined threats allows one to venture out and enjoy the outdoors--that person should take it.. if over a period of time they realize that it's dead weight and stop taking it- great! if that never happens and they continue to carry it around...it's their business.
There are many threads on this topic and in most of them I have said that if I felt that I needed to carry a firearm on the trail it would be for dogs.
If vicious, unrestrained and uncontrolled dogs were so much of an issue I would go out and get my own big, bad dog and use it as protection from other dogs before I'd carry a gun while hiking.
I am not anti gun. I am not anti dog. I take neither with me hiking and I hike as much as I can as often as I can.
I don't really disagree, people can do whatever they want, as long as it's legal, or at least they can get away with it. I was just offering advice, just as I sometime do relative to sleeping bags or Maine trail conditions. I do agree with Sarge. Carriers shouldn't advertise their practice.

And Mags, I responded to your post only because whatever it was you said, I forget, inspired my comments, for better or worse.

Weary

[Mags]

And Mags, I responded to your post only because whatever it was you said, I forget, inspired my comments, for better or worse.

Weary


Fraternal ethnic organization? Er..ok. :D

Still no gun, cell phone, SPOT, PLB (or RFID) for that matter.

All geegaws I really don't need. Can think of better things to pack than a gun myself. But whadda I know.

[sofaking]

Fraternal ethnic organization? Er..ok. :D

Still no gun, cell phone, SPOT, PLB (or RFID) for that matter.

All geegaws I really don't need. Can think of better things to pack than a gun myself. But whadda I know.

5 liters of mountain burgundy ala alameda or franzia!

[Mags]

5 liters of mountain burgundy ala alameda or franzia!

Well, I am of Italian ancestry. Need the vino.

[sofaking]

Well, I am of Italian ancestry. Need the vino.
words of wisdom from a man beyond his years...plus jesus said so...

[Mags]

words of wisdom from a man beyond his years...plus jesus said so...


Jesus' first recorded miracle was turning water into wine. Coincidence? :-?

[sofaking]

Jesus' first recorded miracle was turning water into wine. Coincidence? :-?
of course not;)

[MOWGLI]

http://media.timesfreepress.com/img/photos/2008/05/04/Park_Gun_inside.jpg

I'd hike with her ;)

Not me. Not for .1 miles.


Fraternal ethnic organization? Er..ok. :D

Still no gun, cell phone, SPOT, PLB (or RFID) for that matter.



Now THERE is someone I could hike with! :sun

[SGT Rock]

Not me. Not for .1 miles.

Yea, those poles she is carrying are just too damn red.

[greentick]

she looks fairly harmless with all fingers on the grip

[MOWGLI]

Yea, those poles she is carrying are just too damn red.

I wonder if they match her lipstick. (ducking for cover) :D

[SGT Rock]

She looks like she packs light though (more ways than one).

[sofaking]

do not feed or tease the glamour models...
how did anybody take this crap article seriously?..

[doggiebag]

Her night vision's screwed for a while and she's not using good cover and concealment.

[Skidsteer]

http://media.timesfreepress.com/img/photos/2008/05/04/Park_Gun_inside.jpg

I'd hike with her ;)

Ten to one she's right handed.

[sofaking]

i'd like to see her bend over to tie her sketchers with that pack on...i'm going to stop now before i start getting mean...:rolleyes:

[taildragger]

Ten to one she's right handed.

The polls are actually the AOWs that she carries. Gotta keep them in the right hand since the plastic pistol is for show

[MOWGLI]

Too bad she wasn't out hiking the year Minnie Smith was on the trail. :D

(just kidding - sorta) ;)

[Skyline]

I don't carry a gun. Never felt the need to. Hope few do. If I really felt like I needed a gun in the backcountry, I'd probably treat it like a high-crime urban neighborhood where I'd feel the same. I'd just avoid going there. Fortunately, that's not the case where I spend most of my woods time—except possibly during hunting season.


***************************************

However, the Dept. of the Interior—under which National Parks are operated—is opening a real can of worms here. They want to change the decades-old policy that firearms are not allowed in NATIONAL PARKS. I know a number of employees at Shenandoah National Park who have been outspoken AGAINST this proposal since it came out last week.

Guns are allowed in National FORESTS, which are operated under the auspices of the Dept. of Agriculture. Hunting and other activities like logging are permitted in most National FORESTS that are not permitted in National PARKS. National Parks operate under different guidelines and laws for a good reason. While National FORESTS are "lands of many uses," National PARKS are resources to be protected. Everything else that goes on in National Parks is secondary to protecting the resource.

If the Dept. of Interior gets its way, it is the beginning of a slippery slope that will see the states—that are going to get decision-making authority—open up national park lands to hunting, logging, mining, and development. It will be more difficult to identify wildlife poachers if carrying a gun within NP boundaries is made legal. It will cause more gun-related accidents. It may cause a slight increase in gun-related crime within National Parks. It will remove National Parks as a refuge that people can enjoy during hunting season when most of the other (non-national park) woods are filled with hunters and gunfire.

I'm not saying ban guns everywhere. I'm just saying we should keep the ban on guns within America's National Parks. There should be some backcountry areas where one can have a reasonable expectation of not dealing with guns or those who use them. Those areas have already been defined as National Parks.

[sofaking]

I don't carry a gun. Never felt the need to. Hope few do. If I really felt like I needed a gun in the backcountry, I'd probably treat it like a high-crime urban neighborhood where I'd feel the same. I'd just avoid going there. Fortunately, that's not the case where I spend most of my woods time—except possibly during hunting season.


***************************************

However, the Dept. of the Interior—under which National Parks are operated—is opening a real can of worms here. They want to change the decades-old policy that firearms are not allowed in NATIONAL PARKS. I know a number of employees at Shenandoah National Park who have been outspoken AGAINST this proposal since it came out last week.

Guns are allowed in National FORESTS, which are operated under the auspices of the Dept. of Agriculture. Hunting and other activities like logging are permitted in most National FORESTS that are not permitted in National PARKS. National Parks operate under different guidelines and laws for a good reason. While National FORESTS are "lands of many uses," National PARKS are resources to be protected. Everything else that goes on in National Parks is secondary to protecting the resource.

If the Dept. of Interior gets its way, it is the beginning of a slippery slope that will see the states—that are going to get decision-making authority—open up national park lands to hunting, logging, mining, and development. It will be more difficult to identify wildlife poachers if carrying a gun within NP boundaries is made legal. It will cause more gun-related accidents. It may cause a slight increase in gun-related crime within National Parks. It will remove National Parks as a refuge that people can enjoy during hunting season when most of the other (non-national park) woods are filled with hunters and gunfire.

I'm not saying ban guns everywhere. I'm just saying we should keep the ban on guns within America's National Parks. There should be some backcountry areas where one can have a reasonable expectation of not dealing with guns or those who use them. Those areas have already been defined as National Parks.
well said. and thanks for the spring work at pass mountain. big daddy duct tape said he ran into you there?

[taildragger]

If the Dept. of Interior gets its way, it is the beginning of a slippery slope that will see the states—that are going to get decision-making authority—open up national park lands to hunting, logging, mining, and development. It will be more difficult to identify wildlife poachers if carrying a gun within NP boundaries is made legal. It will cause more gun-related accidents. It may cause a slight increase in gun-related crime within National Parks. It will remove National Parks as a refuge that people can enjoy during hunting season when most of the other (non-national park) woods are filled with hunters and gunfire.

I'll disagree with you on a few points here.

I don't think that opening up of hunting in NP's is going to be a big deal, end of story, I just don't see it happening, same with development.

Wildlife poachers, if someone is carrying a 9mm pistol, I don't think that they're a poacher, now if you see a backpacker carrying around a .338 ultra mag, then yes, odds are they are out huntin'.

Thats just me though.

[jersey joe]

And your conclusion is? :-?
I don't have much of a conclusion really, as other posters have said, gun ownership is more prevelent in rural areas. There are more rural areas in the south east than the north east. I grew up shooting guns but the practicality of owning one in a poplulated area like northern NJ isn't very high.

[taildragger]

I don't have much of a conclusion really, as other posters have said, gun ownership is more prevelent in rural areas. There are more rural areas in the south east than the north east. I grew up shooting guns but the practicality of owning one in a poplulated area like northern NJ isn't very high.

Really? I'd always assumed that it would be independent of location and instead be dependent on activities (i.e. if I had to move to Houston again, I'd bring my guns cause I like to hunt and I like to shoot, and I hate Texas)

[take-a-knee]

The polls are actually the AOWs that she carries. Gotta keep them in the right hand since the plastic pistol is for show

Dragger, your vast knowledge of weaponry salies forth; that is a STAINLESS STEEL Walther PPK/S. That wouldn't be a bad "chick" gun, but I'd prefer a Glock or a Khar.

[take-a-knee]

I don't carry a gun. Never felt the need to. Hope few do. If I really felt like I needed a gun in the backcountry, I'd probably treat it like a high-crime urban neighborhood where I'd feel the same. I'd just avoid going there. Fortunately, that's not the case where I spend most of my woods time—except possibly during hunting season.


***************************************

However, the Dept. of the Interior—under which National Parks are operated—is opening a real can of worms here. They want to change the decades-old policy that firearms are not allowed in NATIONAL PARKS. I know a number of employees at Shenandoah National Park who have been outspoken AGAINST this proposal since it came out last week.

Guns are allowed in National FORESTS, which are operated under the auspices of the Dept. of Agriculture. Hunting and other activities like logging are permitted in most National FORESTS that are not permitted in National PARKS. National Parks operate under different guidelines and laws for a good reason. While National FORESTS are "lands of many uses," National PARKS are resources to be protected. Everything else that goes on in National Parks is secondary to protecting the resource.

If the Dept. of Interior gets its way, it is the beginning of a slippery slope that will see the states—that are going to get decision-making authority—open up national park lands to hunting, logging, mining, and development. It will be more difficult to identify wildlife poachers if carrying a gun within NP boundaries is made legal. It will cause more gun-related accidents. It may cause a slight increase in gun-related crime within National Parks. It will remove National Parks as a refuge that people can enjoy during hunting season when most of the other (non-national park) woods are filled with hunters and gunfire.

I'm not saying ban guns everywhere. I'm just saying we should keep the ban on guns within America's National Parks. There should be some backcountry areas where one can have a reasonable expectation of not dealing with guns or those who use them. Those areas have already been defined as National Parks.

You are completely confused on the issue, hunting within National Parks is one issue, concealed carry of handguns is a totally separate issue. I hope is does become law, both of them actually. I really like to see hoplophobes like yourself get all lathered up. Ever heard of the 10th Ammendment? Look it up.
People like yourself didn't build this country, we'd all be goose-stepping now if there had been more folks like yourself in this country.

[FeO2]

All,

Last year I did the MSGT in NH. Only 55 miles, but it was a nice 4 days away from EVERYTHING.

Anyway, on that hike, I was going up a dirt road and noticed up ahead a person picking blueberries in the bushes. As I got closer they stooped down, I assumed getting the lower berries. As I approached, up the middle of the dirt road, the guy jumps out of the bushes with a hand gun drawn! :eek:. Holy Crap I thought.

He anticipated my arrival because he took the time to snap the cover of his blueberry bucket on and pulled the gun out before he jumped out of the bushes. We both looked at each other, he stammerd, I quote "oh...oh... not many people come up this road" and then put the gun back in the holster. I made the comment "I am glad you put that away" and continued down the road. I memorized his license plate as I passed, and picked up the pace!!

I am glad he didn't mess up and get a shot off! I probably would have reverted back to my military days and disarm the freak, then let him know what I really thought.

[Skidsteer]

All,

Last year I did the MSGT in NH. Only 55 miles, but it was a nice 4 days away from EVERYTHING.

Anyway, on that hike, I was going up a dirt road and noticed up ahead a person picking blueberries in the bushes. As I got closer they stooped down, I assumed getting the lower berries. As I approached, up the middle of the dirt road, the guy jumps out of the bushes with a hand gun drawn! :eek:. Holy Crap I thought.

He anticipated my arrival because he took the time to snap the cover of his blueberry bucket on and pulled the gun out before he jumped out of the bushes. We both looked at each other, he stammerd, I quote "oh...oh... not many people come up this road" and then put the gun back in the holster. I made the comment "I am glad you put that away" and continued down the road. I memorized his license plate as I passed, and picked up the pace!!

I am glad he didn't mess up and get a shot off! I probably would have reverted back to my military days and disarm the freak, then let him know what I really thought.

Be glad he had a gun.

If he'd been relying on a knife for protection with his crooked mindset, chances are good you would have been cut.

[weary]

Well, I am of Italian ancestry. Need the vino.
My grandfather was such a fundamentalist Christian that only two others shared his fundamentalist beliefs.

But when he broke out his jug of wine before us kids, he always quoted the Bible: "a little wine for thy stomach's sake."

That's the one truism that has stuck with me. I've pretty much given up beer, bourbon, and the Bible. But I'm not going to go against all the scriptures. When my wife complains, I repeat my grandfather's words, and remind her that its also good for my heart, according to the American Medical Association.

No rational person could possibly reject the words of both God and the AMA.

Weary

[Skidsteer]

My grandfather was such a fundamentalist Christian that only two others shared his fundamentalist beliefs.

But when he broke out his jug of wine before us kids, he always quoted the Bible: "a little wine for thy stomach's sake."

That's the one truism that has stuck with me. I've pretty much given up beer, bourbon, and the Bible. But I'm not going to go against all the scriptures. When my wife complains, I repeat my grandfather's words, and remind her that its also good for my heart, according to the American Medical Association.

No rational person could possibly reject the words of both God and the AMA.

Weary

Amen...

....

[atrerunner]

Backpackers with guns gave me about the first and second biggest frights that i had on my through-hike: in southern VA John Gaylor and i were approaching a shelter a few minutes before sundown, after a very long day. As we got to the front of the shelter, we saw that there were two middle-aged men, and two teenage women. The men each had a rifle in hand and each chambered a round, right after John and i said "Hi" or "good evening"....They didn't say anything, but the guns pointed at us told the tale. I guess that we looked and smelt worse than we had realized; as we walked N as fast as we could, i was praying that we weren't about to be back-shot, but we walked until we couldn't see anymore and just camped right next to the Trail. The second scare was in either NJ or NY, and was mostly my fault, since i hiked until dark and set up my tent next to a little pond, which i didn't realize was a farmer's private pond. Just as i was about to fall asleep, i hear Angry Farmer and Growling Dog. Farmer: "I'm going to shoot the next (expletive deleted) fisherman i catch!" (sound of shotgun slide) Dog: sticks it's head inside tent, teeth bared, on leash thank goodness. Me: "Don't shoot! i'm not a fisherman!" At gunpoint, holding dog leash and flashlight in one hand and shotgun (precariously) in the other, he made me show what was in my pack to make sure that i didn't have some kind of fishing rod/tackle. Once he realized i wasn't after his fish, he was actually more friendly, and gave me the ok to stay the rest of the night, thank goodness. It was really hard to avoid private property back then, especially in those two states, but my carelessness and push for miles almost got

[Mags]

Amen...

....


I'll drink to Weary's story. Saluti!

[take-a-knee]

Backpackers with guns gave me about the first and second biggest frights that i had on my through-hike: in southern VA John Gaylor and i were approaching a shelter a few minutes before sundown, after a very long day. As we got to the front of the shelter, we saw that there were two middle-aged men, and two teenage women. The men each had a rifle in hand and each chambered a round, right after John and i said "Hi" or "good evening"....They didn't say anything, but the guns pointed at us told the tale. I guess that we looked and smelt worse than we had realized; as we walked N as fast as we could, i was praying that we weren't about to be back-shot, but we walked until we couldn't see anymore and just camped right next to the Trail. The second scare was in either NJ or NY, and was mostly my fault, since i hiked until dark and set up my tent next to a little pond, which i didn't realize was a farmer's private pond. Just as i was about to fall asleep, i hear Angry Farmer and Growling Dog. Farmer: "I'm going to shoot the next (expletive deleted) fisherman i catch!" (sound of shotgun slide) Dog: sticks it's head inside tent, teeth bared, on leash thank goodness. Me: "Don't shoot! i'm not a fisherman!" At gunpoint, holding dog leash and flashlight in one hand and shotgun (precariously) in the other, he made me show what was in my pack to make sure that i didn't have some kind of fishing rod/tackle. Once he realized i wasn't after his fish, he was actually more friendly, and gave me the ok to stay the rest of the night, thank goodness. It was really hard to avoid private property back then, especially in those two states, but my carelessness and push for miles almost got

I'm quite curious about your first encounter, you said the "pointed" their guns at you. That means the faced you, raised the weapon, and lined the sights directly on you. IE you were looking at the end of the muzzle.

If you happened to have the muzzle of an unaimed weapon cross your body, that is what is called being "flagged", and is the result of careless gunhandling by untrained, ignorant a$$holes (it is really common in the Army, at least parts of it)

The first is a clear-cut criminal act, the latter is merely negligence that may constitute a criminal act of negligence if one is harmed. So which was it?

[atrerunner]

Considering that they each chambered a round and then lowered the rifles from vertical to horizontal, one pointed at me and one pointed at John, we were not confused as to their intent: it was leave or get shot.

[take-a-knee]

Considering that they each chambered a round and then lowered the rifles from vertical to horizontal, one pointed at me and one pointed at John, we were not confused as to their intent: it was leave or get shot.

Was this during hunting season? Hikers don't hike with rifles. Did you figure out what jurisdiction you were in and report this to the sheriff? Did you have a cell phone? If what you stated actually occurred, it should not have ended there.

[atrerunner]

If you need, for some reason, another witness, call John: he's in the phone book; Silver Spring MD. I don't know if it was hunting season, it was sometime in late Feb. or early March, if that helps. I didn't say that those folks were hikers. They did have backpacks, which is why i said "backpackers", although the farmer obviously wasn't (sorry Farmer) Cell phones had not been invented yet: that wasn't until 1973, or perhaps '74. It probably would not have been a great idea to go to the local authorities, not that that even crossed my mind. That was a whole different era, and it was not unheard of for 'hippies', which i were/am to be scalped, beat up, or killed. We were just happy to be on our way, minus bulletholes. There wasn't even an ATC in Harper's Ferry back then: they were still in DC :)

[doggiebag]

Do you recall what shelter this incident occured? Personally I wouldn't forget a shelter's name after an incident you described.

[doggiebag]

As we got to the front of the shelter, we saw that there were two middle-aged men, and two teenage women. The men each had a rifle in hand and each chambered a round, right after John and i said "Hi" or "good evening"....They didn't say anything, but the guns pointed at us told the tale. I guess that we looked and smelt worse than we had realized; as we walked N as fast as we could, i was praying that we weren't about to be back-shot, but we walked until we couldn't see anymore and just camped right next to the Trail.

So you basically got your life threatened by 2 armed men - possibly holding 2 teenagers at gunpoint and you just walked away and didn't report it? It's interesting that they locked and loaded and still let you walk away. I think you are FOS.

[MOWGLI]

So you basically got your life threatened by 2 armed men - possibly holding 2 teenagers at gunpoint and you just walked away and didn't report it? It's interesting that they locked and loaded and still let you walk away. I think you are FOS.

I have a friend who showed up at a shelter late, and found the lone occupant pointing a handgun at him. He didn't call the police either, so it happens.

People who are so fearful of hiking in the woods without a handgun, and who would pull a gun on another hiker for little or no reason, should stay home under their beds with the curtains drawn - where they belong.

[Skyline]

I'll disagree with you on a few points here.

I don't think that opening up of hunting in NP's is going to be a big deal, end of story, I just don't see it happening, same with development.

Wildlife poachers, if someone is carrying a 9mm pistol, I don't think that they're a poacher, now if you see a backpacker carrying around a .338 ultra mag, then yes, odds are they are out huntin'.

Thats just me though.


You have a point about the difference between a 9mm and a .338 ultra mag. But there's more to consider than that.

The DOI's proposal is actually to let each state's laws prevail in National Parks within each respective state.

That means if a State Park in Tennessee, for example, permits visitors to carry any type of firearms, then any National Park within Tennessee will be open to the same behavior. There will not necessarily be a differentiation between small pistols and hunting rifles, tho either can be deadly. If Tennessee State Parks permit hunting, then hunting will be permissable, at the discretion of the state, in any National Park within Tennessee.

This would absolutely be a can of worms in a place like the Smokies, where the National Park sits in two states. Which state's laws--Tennessee or North Carolina--does that Park adhere to?

IMHO there are enough places in any given state where hunting, and the legal carrying of firearms, already exists. Why do we have to take the one class of backcountry (National Parks) which is and has been a refuge from hunting and guns and make it like all the rest?

[jersey joe]

Perhaps a tazer is a better alternative to a gun on the trail... At least if I am shot by accident I can scrape myself up off the ground, whipe the foam off my mouth, clean out my pants and go on with my day...

[Skyline]

You are completely confused on the issue, hunting within National Parks is one issue, concealed carry of handguns is a totally separate issue. I hope is does become law, both of them actually. I really like to see hoplophobes like yourself get all lathered up. Ever heard of the 10th Ammendment? Look it up.
People like yourself didn't build this country, we'd all be goose-stepping now if there had been more folks like yourself in this country.


If you do some research, you'll see that the DOI proposal is as follows (paraphrasing):

Allow each state to decide what goes on, regarding guns, inside any National Park within its state boundaries—using the rules it has in place for State Parks (or may put in place in the future for State Parks) to prevail in National Parks. At present, the media focus is on concealed-carry, but many NPS employees are convinced this is just the beginning of a slippery slope. They are rightfully concerned it will lead to more illegal poaching regardless of hunting seasons. They are concerned that it will lead to more crime within National Parks. They are concerned it will put the lives of NPS employees and National Park visitors in greater danger.

Some have also expressed the opinion that this is the beginning of allowing each state to determine land-use issues within National Parks (logging, mining, development) tho I don't see the current proposal dealing with anything other than guns and hunting. Still, long term, they may have it exactly right.

This means that if the state of Kentucky, for example, allows hunting in its State Parks, then the state of Kentucky can open up National Parks within Kentucky to hunting if it wants to. It's about more than just concealed-carry in the long term.

My point is: It ain't broke. So why do we need to "fix" it? There are plenty of places to legally carry, and to hunt within hunting season. Why add the one place (National Parks) that is a refuge from guns and hunting to that long list?



LOL. What in the world is a hoplophobe? It's not in my Webster's.

[Alligator]

...
LOL. What in the world is a hoplophobe? It's not in my Webster's.It's a word hoplophiliacs use.

[Skyline]

It's a word hoplophiliacs use.



Duh. I shoulda known that! :D

[le loupe]

hoplo meaning weapon, although our usage indicates guns

therefore - afraid of guns = Hoplophobic & lover of guns = Hoplophiliac

[sofaking]

hoplo meaning weapon, although our usage indicates guns

therefore - afraid of guns = Hoplophobic & lover of guns = Hoplophiliac
but if you're not afraid of guns, just the zealous, fringe element that want to see everyone armed, so that we can exist in a fairy tale version of the old west where a man didn't make peace, his colt did- what funny definition do we have for that?:-?

[le loupe]

Was this during hunting season?


what's hunting season got to do with it?

It might explain why they had guns but it wouldn't be any indication of when/where guns are "allowed".

[sofaking]

but if you're not afraid of guns, just the zealous, fringe element that want to see everyone armed, so that we can exist in a fairy tale version of the old west where a man didn't make peace, his colt did- what funny definition do we have for that?:-?
hah, i just ninja-ed myself! but i got it, it will be called antijohnwaynecharlesbronsondirtyharrydisestablishm entarist!
or we can use the endearing, old definition: pinko hippy queer, that's the one, right? peace, brothers and sisters:)

[le loupe]

but if you're not afraid of guns, just the zealous, fringe element that want to see everyone armed, so that we can exist in a fairy tale version of the old west where a man didn't make peace, his colt did- what funny definition do we have for that?:-?


for that we use the pithy saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people"

I would say there is an equally zealous fringe element that wants to see everyone unarmed so that the fairytale nanny state we could exist in would take of all our problems

[sofaking]

for that we use the pithy saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people"

I would say there is an equally zealous fringe element that wants to see everyone unarmed so that the fairytale nanny state we could exist in would take of all our problems
only people with guns kill people, it's the 'taste of a new generation'...i'm glad no other forms of violence result in death, or i might need to start packing a gun?:-?

[taildragger]

only people with guns kill people, it's the 'taste of a new generation'...i'm glad no other forms of violence result in death, or i might need to start packing a gun?:-?

Hrmm....

1) road rage
2) baseball bat
3) a boot
4) a knife
5) a glass bottle
6) a dog
7) a strategically placed blow from a keyboard
8) a pen
9) a chicken
10) etc...

See, people can kill you with a whole lot more than a gun.

My advice, pack a rooster, it will confuse an assailant and make great bar conversation

[doggiebag]

Hrmm....

1) road rage
2) baseball bat
3) a boot
4) a knife
5) a glass bottle
6) a dog
7) a strategically placed blow from a keyboard
8) a pen
9) a chicken
10) etc...

See, people can kill you with a whole lot more than a gun.

My advice, pack a rooster, it will confuse an assailant and make great bar conversation

Let me add ...

A sock full rocks
A car
A tall building
A wolverine
An unclean date (though that could take a while).
A plate of bad shellfish
Death is all around ...

Oh yeah the White Mountains of New Hampshire - though that may be considered suicide depending on the time of year.

[taildragger]

A wolverine


I almost got carjacked by a man who used a wolverine point blank on me. Luckily I had some steak juice, threw it on the assailant, and the wolverine did his job well

[sofaking]

Hrmm....

1) road rage
2) baseball bat
3) a boot
4) a knife
5) a glass bottle
6) a dog
7) a strategically placed blow from a keyboard
8) a pen
9) a chicken
10) etc...

See, people can kill you with a whole lot more than a gun.

My advice, pack a rooster, it will confuse an assailant and make great bar conversation
11) a standing dead tree if you're anywhere near a wd

[Jim Adams]

All,

Last year I did the MSGT in NH. Only 55 miles, but it was a nice 4 days away from EVERYTHING.

Anyway, on that hike, I was going up a dirt road and noticed up ahead a person picking blueberries in the bushes. As I got closer they stooped down, I assumed getting the lower berries. As I approached, up the middle of the dirt road, the guy jumps out of the bushes with a hand gun drawn! :eek:. Holy Crap I thought.

He anticipated my arrival because he took the time to snap the cover of his blueberry bucket on and pulled the gun out before he jumped out of the bushes. We both looked at each other, he stammerd, I quote "oh...oh... not many people come up this road" and then put the gun back in the holster. I made the comment "I am glad you put that away" and continued down the road. I memorized his license plate as I passed, and picked up the pace!!

I am glad he didn't mess up and get a shot off! I probably would have reverted back to my military days and disarm the freak, then let him know what I really thought.

Could have been another tragic raspberry related death!!!!:D

geek

[Jim Adams]

I have a friend who showed up at a shelter late, and found the lone occupant pointing a handgun at him. He didn't call the police either, so it happens.

People who are so fearful of hiking in the woods without a handgun, and who would pull a gun on another hiker for little or no reason, should stay home under their beds with the curtains drawn - where they belong.

VERY TRUE!!!!!!!!:cool:

geek

[oldfivetango]

I'm very pro second amendment. I just temper my fervor with a bit of common sense. My argument is simple. It's silly to carry a firearm daily, when it has virtually zero chance of doing any good. I hear again and again about the many "secret" carriers on the trail. But when I ask for examples of a situation where carrying a firearm while hiking has been helpful, I'm greeted with nothing but silence.

The practice of carrying appears to me to have little to do with safety, and a lot to do with a strange secular religion, whose belief systems require carrying a firearm at all times to thwart imagined threats.

Weary

For what it is worth,I had someone pm me once to say that their
firearm had made a difference.As for me,having one made a difference
in a motel parking lot early one morning before sunup while loading the
car to start my routine workday.

As for the "stick to the head" theory,most people who carry would likely
not turn their backs on a stranger.But for those of us who do carry and
could be struck,the attacker had better make it count or the informed
"carrier" can immediately render lethal force.To each his own.
Just sayin'.
Oldfivetango

[minnesotasmith]

Guns have always been legal in national parks. Yes, according to the highest law, the U.S. Constitution, the Second Amendment is quite clear on this. The fedgov has been illegally, criminally, denying citizens in those areas a basic right. It's really nice to see a move towards bringing regulations and fedgov rules in line with the law.

[le loupe]

this is soooo much a better topic than ADA compliance of the trail...

[mudhead]

Guns have always been legal in national parks. Yes, according to the highest law, the U.S. Constitution, the Second Amendment is quite clear on this. The fedgov has been illegally, criminally, denying citizens in those areas a basic right. It's really nice to see a move towards bringing regulations and fedgov rules in line with the law.

You really are the positive mofo today, aren't you.

[minnesotasmith]

You really are the positive mofo today, aren't you.

Just accurate, that's all.

[Newb]

Everyone talks about carrying a "Concealed" weapon. What's wrong with carrying your firearm unconcealed, right there on a shoulder holster or on your hip? Wouldn't that abrogate the need for a concealed permit?

[sofaking]

Everyone talks about carrying a "Concealed" weapon. What's wrong with carrying your firearm unconcealed, right there on a shoulder holster or on your hip? Wouldn't that abrogate the need for a concealed permit?
move to texas, oklahoma or arizona if you want to be a 'cowboy', strut around these states openly carrying all you want.

[oldfivetango]

Back to the topic of handguns while backpacking - in the past, I thought carrying a weapon was just too much weight. However, since getting older and being injured & rendered unable to run at all or to make the sort of defensive maneuvers (she-dino has a martial arts background) I was able to in the past, I feel the weight of a weapon is justified. As others have noted, a weapon buried in a backpack won't work.... mine is concealed, readily available at all times and in the hands of a expert marksman with extensive training and a carry permit - the He-Dino. Were I to need carry one myself, I would take some more training and get a closed carry permit.

Somehow the thought that the Dinos have lost faith in their fellow
man makes my spirit sag regardless of my support of the 2nd Amendment
and right to carry permit.:(
Oldfivetango

[SGT Rock]

Everyone talks about carrying a "Concealed" weapon. What's wrong with carrying your firearm unconcealed, right there on a shoulder holster or on your hip? Wouldn't that abrogate the need for a concealed permit?
Probably not. Gary Hilton carried his Asp in plain sight. Though a gun is not an asp, they are both weapons.

Again, just like my other post in this thread. If I were to see a person in the back country with a weapon I should report it as a duty to other hikers.

[Lion King]

Let me add ...

A sock full rocks
A car
A tall building
A wolverine
An unclean date (though that could take a while).
A plate of bad shellfish
Death is all around ...

Oh yeah the White Mountains of New Hampshire - though that may be considered suicide depending on the time of year.


and lets not forget the biggest one of all...

Kindness.

PS

This is more political now then media based just based on th edisucssion of the last few pages.

We all have rights to have a gun. I have a lot of them, but I dont carry them on the trail and I dont use them for anything other then hunting, collecting or shooting terrorists when they step up in my game.

[doggiebag]

and lets not forget the biggest one of all...

Kindness.

PS

This is more political now then media based just based on th edisucssion of the last few pages.

We all have rights to have a gun. I have a lot of them, but I dont carry them on the trail and I dont use them for anything other then hunting, collecting or shooting terrorists when they step up in my game.
Good point but ... :D
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4044&d=1210173898
Hope you're doing well. Your last TJ entry with the outspoken ignoramus highlighted the difficult/ignorant folks you sometimes have to endure. More power to you and stay safe.

[le loupe]

just carry a rifle or shotgun-

it seems much less encumbered from a legal perspective to be in possession of a rifle or shotgun regardless of time of year in most states thru which the AT passes.

[oldfivetango]

just carry a rifle or shotgun-

it seems much less encumbered from a legal perspective to be in possession of a rifle or shotgun regardless of time of year in most states thru which the AT passes.

People who carry exposed firearms really creep me out
despite the fact that I am an NRA member and have
a concealed carry permit.

The way I see it,ladies and gentlemen carry their firearms concealed
so as not to be offensive to others.And they know how and when or
when not to use it.

Despite all the banter in here about firearms,alot can be said
for a good ole can o bearspray-it's for alot more than bears.
Oldfivetango

[NICKTHEGREEK]

move to texas, oklahoma or arizona if you want to be a 'cowboy', strut around these states openly carrying all you want.
VA too.

[taildragger]

move to texas, oklahoma or arizona if you want to be a 'cowboy', strut around these states openly carrying all you want.

In OK if you wanna carry its gotta be concealed.

In fact, in a fair number of states you can only carry concealed.

[sofaking]

In OK if you wanna carry its gotta be concealed.

In fact, in a fair number of states you can only carry concealed.
i was under the assumption that you can carry openly in these states, not concealed

[taildragger]

http://www.gunmap.net/gunmap1000.gif

[Newb]

Virginia is an OPEN CARRY state. Even the restriction on State Park carry has been questioned by the State Attorney's General office with the opinion that the DNRs rules overstep their charter authority.

[sofaking]

yeee- haaaaaw! let's play cowboys, we can dress up for it and everything...

[taildragger]

yeee- haaaaaw! let's play cowboys, we can dress up for it and everything...

So, will I be playing cowboys when I go hunt next fall and I carry a pistol on me (which is still legal in the field) for protection (meth heads and hogs run the river, both will charge you if you accidentally come up on them)?

[sofaking]

So, will I be playing cowboys when I go hunt next fall and I carry a pistol on me (which is still legal in the field) for protection (meth heads and hogs run the river, both will charge you if you accidentally come up on them)?
is hunting considered hiking the a.t.? i hunt, i backpack, but not together while on the a.t.
what do you need a pistol for if your already hunting, or do you hunt with a handgun?

[taildragger]

is hunting considered hiking the a.t.? i hunt, i backpack, but not together while on the a.t.
what do you need a pistol for if your already hunting, or do you hunt with a handgun?

I hike when I hunt, but the closest I ever got to hiking near the AT was about 40 miles

Next season I'll start carrying either a pistol grip shotgun or a .45 pistol when I bowhunt since I walk through the hogs turf on the way to my treestands. A bow in the dark would be a poor weapon choice for a charging hog.

[sofaking]

I hike when I hunt, but the closest I ever got to hiking near the AT was about 40 miles

Next season I'll start carrying either a pistol grip shotgun or a .45 pistol when I bowhunt since I walk through the hogs turf on the way to my treestands. A bow in the dark would be a poor weapon choice for a charging hog.
we're not allowed to have sidearms while bow hunting around here...but we can use crossbows, as of last year...

[mudhead]

I predict a rash of poorly trained/equipped people in the next few weeks.

Be careful! Don't startle anyone.

[Pootz]

I do not believe that someones 2nd amendment rights should end once they enter a national park. It does not make any sense. One would need to have the proper state permits to carry a gun legally. For the AT this might mean 14 different permits if you could even get them, and you would still not be able to carry a gun in most parks legally.

I do not hike with a gun because I do not feel I need one and do not want to carry the extra weight. I did carry pepper spray (small 2oz container) during my 07 thru hike and would suggest to anyone that they should carry pepper spray. It is legal and may give you an edge if a problem were to arise.

[taildragger]

I do not believe that someones 2nd amendment rights should end once they enter a national park. It does not make any sense. One would need to have the proper state permits to carry a gun legally. For the AT this might mean 14 different permits if you could even get them, and you would still not be able to carry a gun in most parks legally.

I do not hike with a gun because I do not feel I need one and do not want to carry the extra weight. I did carry pepper spray (small 2oz container) during my 07 thru hike and would suggest to anyone that they should carry pepper spray. It is legal and may give you an edge if a problem were to arise.


Not to mention instant seasoning :banana

But seriously, all the hubbub seems to be from people who aren't accustomed to being around guns and/or fear the potential for poaching (I figure that getting an elk unnoticed out of yellowstone is quite a feat, and would be done whether or not this law passes)

[Bulldawg]

I love guns, I love guns, I love guns!

Do I carry one when I hike, you figure it out cause I ain't telling ya!!

[4eyedbuzzard]

I do not believe that someones 2nd amendment rights should end once they enter a national park. It does not make any sense. One would need to have the proper state permits to carry a gun legally. For the AT this might mean 14 different permits if you could even get them, and you would still not be able to carry a gun in most parks legally.

I do not hike with a gun because I do not feel I need one and do not want to carry the extra weight. I did carry pepper spray (small 2oz container) during my 07 thru hike and would suggest to anyone that they should carry pepper spray. It is legal and may give you an edge if a problem were to arise.

I would also submit that the current restriction not only violates 2nd amendment, but ultimately, and perhaps more importantly, the 9th(The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.) by denying citizens the right and ability to defend themselves against violent criminals.

And BTW, pepper spray is also technically illegal in National Parks as well. It's defined as a weapon(gas irritant) under 36 CFR 1.4 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=1a7b9018b26f075006725d29dff78711&rgn=div8&view=text&node=36:1.0.1.1.1.0.1.4&idno=36) and prohibited on NPS lands under 36 CFR 2.4 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=1a7b9018b26f075006725d29dff78711&rgn=div8&view=text&node=36:1.0.1.1.2.0.1.4&idno=36) . Exceptions can be made by local NPS authorities at specific parks, Yellowstone and Glacier are typically noted examples in the lower 48 states.

[Bulldawg]

I would also submit that the current restriction not only violates 2nd amendment, but ultimately, and perhaps more importantly, the 9th(The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.) by denying citizens the right and ability to defend themselves against violent criminals.

And BTW, pepper spray is also technically illegal in National Parks as well. It's defined as a weapon(gas irritant) under 36 CFR 1.4 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=1a7b9018b26f075006725d29dff78711&rgn=div8&view=text&node=36:1.0.1.1.1.0.1.4&idno=36) and prohibited on NPS lands under 36 CFR 2.4 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=1a7b9018b26f075006725d29dff78711&rgn=div8&view=text&node=36:1.0.1.1.2.0.1.4&idno=36) . Exceptions can be made by local NPS authorities at specific parks, Yellowstone and Glacier are typically noted examples in the lower 48 states.

What else is new about the government infringing on your rights? They have been doing it for YEARS!! Then the one time some smart people want to right this wrong (guns in NPS) people are screaming bloody murder.

[minnesotasmith]

There's not much more to say IMO.

http://www.comeandtakeit.com/arms-lif.html

[sofaking]

make.this.thread.go.away.please?

[generoll]

then quit posting

[Skyline]

Not to mention instant seasoning :banana

But seriously, all the hubbub seems to be from people who aren't accustomed to being around guns and/or fear the potential for poaching (I figure that getting an elk unnoticed out of yellowstone is quite a feat, and would be done whether or not this law passes)


I can't speak for Yellowstone, but I can tell you poaching is a serious problem here in Shenandoah.

Poachers seek deer for the trophy head/rack. They leave the rest of the carcass to decay. Some do find a way to smuggle out the entire deer if they want the meat.

We have had criminal rings that traffic in bear parts, particularly bear gallbladderrs. Again, extracting the entire bear from the Park isn't a priority for them. They leave the mess for others to clean up.

Did y'all ever stop to think that National Parks are not only sanctuaries for people, but also sanctuaries for wildlife?

So long as the mere possession of a gun in a National Park is illegal, it eliminates the need for NPS law enforcement officers to actually catch a poacher in the act--which can be costly in terms ofd work-hours and $$$. They catch you with an assembled firearm, you've broken a law. Case closed.

Y'all who love guns and love to "hunt" have myriad places to do so legally. Why must you infringe upon the one remaining backcountry environment that is free of guns? Seems kinda selfish to want to have all the woods for your activity.

[take-a-knee]

yeee- haaaaaw! let's play cowboys, we can dress up for it and everything...

Many already do, perhaps someone you already know.

http://www.sassnet.com/

[taildragger]

Skyline, what I've been saying is that I believe the possession of a firearm in the car, or a defense firearm in the field wouldn't be a problem with me.

If someone really wants to poach that animal, they're going to do it, end of story. And to carry a firearm through the park, it just has to be rendered useless (i.e. unloaded in a case, or partially disassembled). You know how long it takes me to assemble my 30.06? About 15 seconds (all that I would need to remove is the action, and thats a simple move). That gives me plenty of time to shoot from the window if I so pleased.

So, whats the problem with allowing the carrying of a pistol? Not too hard to tell if its been shot recently, and you can tell if people are poaching, I hunt poachers, all you have to do is be patient, they screw up pretty damn fast most of the time.

Now, if someone is carrying a rifle or shotgun in the backcountry, then yeah, that shouldn't be right (to me a rifle is a hunting tool for most people, and rarely a defensive tool)

As for head hunters, I hope they get castrated. Nothing pisses me off more, they do nothing in return for the good of the herd.

And lastly, as for sanctuary. They are wildlife sanctuaries in many places, some have cattle, some don't.

[JayMosier]

I would rather be a live convicted felon than a dead statistic

[oldfivetango]

Bearspray,a slimline model stun gun,and a sharp knife are
all considered non-leathal weapons.However,if used in
sequential order as listed you could get pretty lethal on
an assailant in close quarters because you can be blinding
him as he threatens you with the firearm-not a good option
but an option nonetheless.
OFT

[OwlsRevenge]

Meridith Emerson.


that's why.


PS - I'm both surprised and really happy to see the number of people that frequent this site that have a handle on the truth about "evil guns." If guns kill people, matches start forest fires.

[napster]

Unless the photo is shown bassackwards the leather braclet on her right wrist would indicate she IS left handed.Who the heck knows these days what is real and what is not.

[take-a-knee]

I can't speak for Yellowstone, but I can tell you poaching is a serious problem here in Shenandoah.

Poachers seek deer for the trophy head/rack. They leave the rest of the carcass to decay. Some do find a way to smuggle out the entire deer if they want the meat.

We have had criminal rings that traffic in bear parts, particularly bear gallbladderrs. Again, extracting the entire bear from the Park isn't a priority for them. They leave the mess for others to clean up.

Did y'all ever stop to think that National Parks are not only sanctuaries for people, but also sanctuaries for wildlife?

So long as the mere possession of a gun in a National Park is illegal, it eliminates the need for NPS law enforcement officers to actually catch a poacher in the act--which can be costly in terms ofd work-hours and $$$. They catch you with an assembled firearm, you've broken a law. Case closed.

Y'all who love guns and love to "hunt" have myriad places to do so legally. Why must you infringe upon the one remaining backcountry environment that is free of guns? Seems kinda selfish to want to have all the woods for your activity.

To start with, I doubt there are any trophy racks in SNP to poach, what is the deer population there 40-50 deer per square mile? That is a recipe for little basket racks, not wall hangers. How are deer controlled there, paid sharpshooters? That's okay with you, you are willing to pay tax dollars to prevent a sportsman from taking his son deer hunting. That is really twisted.

The GA DNR has finally allowed limited (2-3 days each year) hunting on state parks where herd thinning and management is needed for the benefit and health of the deer. Redtop Mountain State Park had a deer pop of 70 per Sq/mi. The park's vegetation was denuded up as high as the deer could reach and emaciated deer were wobbling around. I guess you find that preferable. Maybe someone will invent a "disney wand" that'll make all these unpleasantries disappear for you.

The poaching of bear parts for the oriental market is a real problem, and a black bear is a more valuable resource to a conservationist, they are worth trapping and moving. There is nowhere is the US that needs whitetail deer transported there.

[MOWGLI]

To start with, I doubt there are any trophy racks in SNP to poach....

When you begin a post with a false assumption like that, and then boldly take that assumption and run with it, it's hard to take anything you say seriously.

[take-a-knee]

When you begin a post with a false assumption like that, and then boldly take that assumption and run with it, it's hard to take anything you say seriously.

So, tell me about the deer population there mowgli, enlighten me.

[MOWGLI]

So, tell me about the deer population there mowgli, enlighten me.

I saw a number of trophy deer there during my 4.5 days in the park. They were almost tame. Compared to parts of the trail further north (ex: Harriman State Park in NY), the population APPEARS (emphasis added) to be much healthier. A thriving bear population PROBABLY (emphasis added) has something to do with that.

Also, Skyline didn't say anything about "prevent(ing) a sportsman from taking his son deer hunting.

[saimyoji]

PS - I'm both surprised and really happy to see the number of people that frequent this site that have a handle on the truth about "evil guns." If guns kill people, matches start forest fires.

and a spoon made michael moore a fat ass

[take-a-knee]

I saw a number of trophy deer there during my 4.5 days in the park. They were almost tame. Compared to parts of the trail further north (ex: Harriman State Park in NY), the population APPEARS (emphasis added) to be much healthier. A thriving bear population PROBABLY (emphasis added) has something to do with that.

Also, Skyline didn't say anything about "prevent(ing) a sportsman from taking his son deer hunting.

Well I guess I spoke out of turn, I don't know exactly what the land use policies are in SNP, I do however know trophy deer management isn't one of them. USFS regulations make that impossible. You have to manage a deer herd to have more than a few percent of 5-7yo bucks with large racks. An aquaintance of mine was one of 12 guys paying $1500 yr to hunt some prime timber/farm land in Macon County GA. They lost the property when their lease was up for renewal to two physicians from FL. Those two docs ponied up more than nine grand each per year to hunt that property, it ain't cheap.

Making any public land off limits to tax-paying, liscense-buying sportsmen does prevent working-class people from hunting deer. It drives up the price to hunt on what land is left.

There is a market for deer mounts, most criminals steal them already mounted, it is a lot less messy.

Whitetail deer and black bear have similar food sources (hard and soft mast). Bear are of course omnivorous, they eat a wide variety of foods, but when there is a poor acorn crop it is dumpster time for yogi, that is when conflicts with humans start to occur.

[sofaking]

Well I guess I spoke out of turn, I don't know exactly what the land use policies are in SNP, I do however know trophy deer management isn't one of them. USFS regulations make that impossible..
care to explain what the u.s.f.s. has to do with shenandoah NATIONAL PARK? or are you just talking out of your ass some more?

[MOWGLI]

Making any public land off limits to tax-paying, liscense-buying sportsmen does prevent working-class people from hunting deer. It drives up the price to hunt on what land is left.



Deer hunting is clearly not a suitable activity for all public lands. Maybe in rural Georgia it is, but it certainly isn't appropriate in more densely populated areas, or in crowded National Parks like Shenandoah. Anyway, deer hunting is in steep decline in the northeast. This spells problems for already unhealthy deer populations - where there is not a major predator present in the ecosystem.

[Skidsteer]

care to explain what the u.s.f.s. has to do with shenandoah NATIONAL PARK? or are you just talking out of your ass some more?

Settle down son. This ain't the Politics forum. Yet.

[sofaking]

Settle down son. This ain't the Politics forum. Yet.
don't get your panties bundled up yet, i'm only pointing out FAULTS in t-a-k's jibberish. by the way, i'm feeling the need to become a donating member so i can continue following all the threads that 'disappear' when they do become too political .

[Skidsteer]

don't get your panties bundled up yet, i'm only pointing out FAULTS in t-a-k's jibberish. by the way, i'm feeling the need to become a donating member so i can continue following all the threads that 'disappear' when they do become too political .

You should do that.

You'd fit right in.

[sofaking]

You should do that.

You'd fit right in.
great, i could stay up all night and raise my blood pressure. heh heh.

[Alligator]

great, i could stay up all night and raise my blood pressure. heh heh.$20 right here (http://www.whiteblaze.net/index.php?page=donating_member). Just hit the donate button.

[taildragger]

Deer hunting is clearly not a suitable activity for all public lands. Maybe in rural Georgia it is, but it certainly isn't appropriate in more densely populated areas, or in crowded National Parks like Shenandoah. Anyway, deer hunting is in steep decline in the northeast. This spells problems for already unhealthy deer populations - where there is not a major predator present in the ecosystem.

I'll agree. In Poughkeepsie I got 2 does off of a farm, most of the does that I saw were very small (even the older ones), only saw two bucks there as well during the whole season (very odd IMHO, I'd never seen such a bad buck to doe ratio) I counted as many as 35 in sub 10 acre field next to a busy road one night.

Point that I'd be trying to make here is that if the deer population is bad, then hunting might not be bad in lieu of another predator that can do the job (which seems to be the case in areas that have large populations). There is a group (in VA I believe) that are bow sharp shooters who do a good job of thinning some of the areas where deer populations have gotten too large.

But this is all talk over a different subject now...

[FanaticFringer]

10 killings and 10 rapes since 1973? That's actually not a bad crime rate, especially when you consider that there are no police.

How bad do you think Merideth Emerson would think it is?:rolleyes:

[FanaticFringer]

make.this.thread.go.away.please?

Like you saying "Make crime go away please?"
Pansy:o

[take-a-knee]

great, i could stay up all night and raise my blood pressure. heh heh.

I would really be upset if I found out you'd become hypertensive.

[rafe]

Like you saying "Make crime go away please?"
Pansy

Like your gun is gonna do that.... :rolleyes:

[take-a-knee]

Like your gun is gonna do that.... :rolleyes:

Yes, the possibility of confrontation by an armed citizen has a chilling effect on the perps, this is fact. Remember the "rental car" murders in FL? The thugs were smart enough to select those they knew were unarmed. Not everyone can deal with a "2-way range".

[FanaticFringer]

Like your gun is gonna do that.... :rolleyes:

When seconds count, the police are only minutes way. Good luck with that.:rolleyes:

[4eyedbuzzard]

Well the truth is the police are only "minutes away". And they'll be there straight off to the scene of the crime - to investigate it after the crime has been committed and reported .:D

Police investigate crimes and arrest criminals - they don't often prevent crimes from occuring or intervene while they are in progress, and they aren't ever likely to show up quickly enough to stop a violent attack even if you could alert them. Criminals, while not always the sharpest crayons in the box, tend to wait until the police are not around.

People are free to make their own choices when it comes to self defense. I, for one, am not satisfied with calling 911 and waiting for the police to arrive to investigate what happened to me, my family, or those in my company. Others are free to do as they wish.

[sheepdog]

Well the truth is the police are only "minutes away". And they'll be there straight off to the scene of the crime - to investigate it after the crime has been committed and reported .:D

Police investigate crimes and arrest criminals - they don't often prevent crimes from occuring or intervene while they are in progress, and they aren't ever likely to show up quickly enough to stop a violent attack even if you could alert them. Criminals, while not always the sharpest crayons in the box, tend to wait until the police are not around.

People are free to make their own choices when it comes to self defense. I, for one, am not satisfied with calling 911 and waiting for the police to arrive to investigate what happened to me, my family, or those in my company. Others are free to do as they wish.
Well said.

[minnesotasmith]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-opencarry7-2008jun07,0,849912.story

Site giving state-by-state laws on legality: http://opencarry.org/

Note that only NY clearly prohibits it, and VA/VT clearly allow it w/out licensing.