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Lone Wolf
02-06-2004, 08:37
Whiteblaze - 2400 members, 30,000 posts
Trailplace - 4000 members, 4000 posts

Over there you can't mention republicans, blue-blazing, pot, guns, speed hiking, etc., etc., etc. A heavily censored forum. No fun there.

attroll
02-06-2004, 08:46
Whiteblaze - 2400 members, 30,000 posts
Trailplace - 4000 members, 4000 posts

Over there you can't mention republicans, blue-blazing, pot, guns, speed hiking, etc., etc., etc. A heavily censored forum. No fun there.
Wow. I can not believe Wingfoot has posted that many post himself. LOL

Jaybird
02-06-2004, 09:04
Wow. I can not believe Wingfoot has posted that many post himself. LOL


hehehehehe! goodun' attroll!



i joined Wingfoot's TRAILPLACE.com site as a member....but after seeing the numerous "restrictions"....i've not been back....


makes me appreciate WhiteBlaze.net even more! :D



see ya'll UP the trail!

ga>me>ak
02-06-2004, 10:53
Excellent post Wolf and Attroll

DeBare
02-06-2004, 11:53
Don't you mean the Holy Shrine of Wingfoot? I go there once a week just to see if someone may have posted something interesting but it's mostly a waste of time. Where as I go to WHITEBLAZE 3 or 4 times a day cuz I find a lot more info from a wider group and the people seem to have more fun. :clap :clap

hungryhowie
02-06-2004, 12:54
I used to be a member of Trailplace. I must say that in Autumn of 1999, it was the absolute BEST place to go for info on the trail. I went from knowing absolutely nothing about the trail, to feeling confident that I could actually do it. Alumni (including WF) and newbies like myself helped me get an idea of my resupply strategy, refine my gear to get it down to a reasonable weight, and made me a part of a community that I still remember fondly. I was even one of that last group to have a journal posted there (this was before TJ - actually, the first I heard of TJ was on the AT after Aswah got kicked off of TP...go figure).

After I got back, and TP was no longer (but Thru-hikers.com was in the making), I tried to contribute to the next crop of thruhikers the way others had done to me. But with Dan taking the site off of the net over and over again, I lost interest, and with the hostilities floating around other trail-servers, I got fed up with online forums and left.

Only in the past few months, after a spark in photography has rekindled my interest in conversing about backpacking, have I come back to the online world of thru-hikers. But now, there is very little activity on Trailplace, so I spend my time here and at backpacking.net/bbs.html. I talk gear and making my own over there, and I talk AT over here. It's a great combination. Dan may have his quirks, but so do we all. I know it's a thru-hikers' national passtime to bash him, but like it or not, he has contributed many years of his life in the interest of the trail.

-Howie

weary
02-06-2004, 13:17
Dan may have his quirks, but so do we all. I know it's a thru-hikers' national passtime to bash him, but like it or not, he has contributed many years of his life in the interest of the trail.
-Howie

Wingfoot has done valuable things for the trail, and may still do valuable things sometime. I suggest we live and let live.

Weary

SkunkleberryFinn
02-06-2004, 13:22
I agree. He does everything in his power to voice his oppinion on all posts. Although effective for some threads. I think he tries to make Trailplace his own little play world. Most people go there thinking that his ways and opinions are the only was to hike on the AT. It's a shame. I love it here people there are so many different opinions about everything and the leaders will let you speak about what you want to. Thanks WhiteBlaze :)

Skunkleberry Finn

smokymtnsteve
02-06-2004, 13:23
..but wingfoot does not believe in live and let live.

weary
02-06-2004, 14:19
..but wingfoot does not believe in live and let live.

It's his site. He can run it anyway he wants. I think his rigid rules are counter productive. I tend to agree with his major positions. I suspect that limiting debate, limits his ability to influence hikers to those positions.

But I must admit his rules make for a site with a greater proportion of significant discussions. Note I said "proportion," not number.

Weary

smokymtnsteve
02-06-2004, 14:26
Wingfoot has done valuable things for the trail,
(really??? what??? )

and may still do valuable things sometime.
(maybe)

I suggest we live and let live.
(he sure doesn't)
Weary

just what are your major points of agreement with wingfoot???..since you certainly don't agree with him on the point of live and let live.

warren doyle
02-06-2004, 14:31
Dan's heart is in the right place. He truly wants to help new folks to complete their journeys. And he is putting in his own time and effort to do so, and he is not doing it for monetary gain.
I grant him some space for his strong beliefs since his good intentions have been abused by some 'powers that be' in the past.
I hope he continues his good work and positive contribution to present and future users of the AT. And, I also hope he can have another thru-hike in his future.

A-Train
02-06-2004, 14:35
Dan's heart is in the right place. He truly wants to help new folks to complete their journeys. And he is putting in his own time and effort to do so, and he is not doing it for monentary gain.
I grant him some space for his strong beliefs since his good intentions have been abused by some 'powers that be' in the past.
I hope he continues his good work and positive contribution to present and future users of the AT. And I also hope he can have another thru-hike in his future.

He is hiking in 2005, so he says on his site

smokymtnsteve
02-06-2004, 14:48
yea..we know it is HIS site, but when he doesn't even let people know about ALDHA or a link to the companion...well is that doing a service to new hikers?

attroll
02-06-2004, 15:10
Whiteblaze - 2400 members, 30,000 posts
Trailplace - 4000 members, 4000 posts

Over there you can't mention republicans, blue-blazing, pot, guns, speed hiking, etc., etc., etc. A heavily censored forum. No fun there.
Well when you have 4,000 members and only 4,000 post, then that speaks for itself.

warren doyle
02-06-2004, 15:18
smokymtnsteve,
The reason why there is no Trailplace link to ALDHA or its 'Companion' publication stems from the time that ALDHA decided, upon the request of the ATC, to gather and edit this information for the ATC to publish. Dan's Thru-Hiker Handbook served this purpose for several prior years and he understandly felt he was untreated fairly by the ATC over this issue. Also, not helping the situation, there were a few ALDHA officers/steering committee members who were not on friendly terms with Dan. This was unfortunate.
One of the Dan's reactions to these real, or perceived, personal slights was not to 'help' ALDHA in any way. Although some may disagree with his decision/reaction, he can do what he wants on his website.
It really is a moot point now. ALDHA, and its Companion, are now fairly well-known and the increased number of potential thru-hikers have two excellent choices (besides the Data Book) for published materials to help them plan and do their individual pilgrimages.
I am glad that Dan Bruce is still a positive contributor to the AT community.

smokymtnsteve
02-06-2004, 15:22
I am glad that Dan Bruce is still a positive contributor to the AT community.

I wish he were.

weary
02-06-2004, 16:09
just what are your major points of agreement with wingfoot???..since you certainly don't agree with him on the point of live and let live.

No one worked harder for serious protection of Saddleback in Maine. He essentially sacrificed his web site in an effort to entice people to join the effort.

The popular response on many AT sites was ridicule and distortion. I'll always be grateful for his work, saddened by its failure, and angry at the petty jealousies and hatreds in the trail community that contributed to the failure.

Weary

warren doyle
02-06-2004, 16:16
Weary,
I admire your compassionate humanity.

jollies
02-06-2004, 16:18
I find it interesting that for contributing a forum where you claim to be free of mind and interests that you post saying that Trailplace is a bad place to go. Half of you probably don't even know him, and have based your biased opinions on things that others have said. Some of you probably joined his site expecting bad things and observing his posts in the slanted manner you got from someone else. I am a member of both Whiteblace and Trailplace's forums, and I believe that both are valuable resources for thru-hikers or potential thru-hikers. Just because Wingfoot takes strong stances on some issues does not mean that he is wrong for doing so. He is an "old-schooler", and just like a person who has been doing something for many years the same way doesn't like change or new technology in a majority of cases (my dad for instance), he doesn't like the new interpretations and lax methods for hiking the trail. You may consider him an extremist, and in some areas he is, but that does not make his opinions or experience any less valuable to the rest of us. I recommend Wingfoot's site highly, and I say that if you have nothing good to say about Trailplace, you don't say it at all. The AT community is dependent on the support of previous hikers, and in order for others to want to do it in the future, we all have to set a good example.

smokymtnsteve
02-06-2004, 17:11
he is very divisive...

TJ aka Teej
02-06-2004, 18:09
Wingy is irrevelent to today's Trail.
If the data he gets for free from the ATC was removed from his handbook it would be less than useless.
Saddleback? He opposed the ATC's position. Then he spammed officials with doctored (according to Weary he "adjusted" letters being sent thru his letterbot) emails. I still wonder how many of those emails were just the product of a spamming program. His mailing list at the time had only a few dozen members contributing, so sending 8000 emails sounds extremely suspect to me.
He's turned his back on the AT community, an action that he's come to regret as he poses as 'poor poor picked on Wingfoot'. For that he deserves our pity.

DeBare
02-06-2004, 18:30
jollies- So what your saying is like it or shutup. Wingfoot may do great things for the trails but he runs Trailplace to restrictive and boring.

jollies
02-06-2004, 20:03
jollies- So what your saying is like it or shutup. Wingfoot may do great things for the trails but he runs Trailplace to restrictive and boring.


That's not what I said, and you know it.

smokymtnsteve
02-06-2004, 20:30
jollies that is one of the difference between whiteblaze and trailplace..
diversity of opinion is allowed here at whiteblaze...
at trailplace this is not the case.

I went to trailplace with an open mind.....I have now removed my postings from there and my membership..well at least I asked for my membership to be removed but with 4000 names I guess wingfoot keeps folks on the member list that don't want to be there ...If I ever have time I guess I'll check in to make sure that he has deleted my name form his list, I don't want to be associated with trailplace.. but everyone needs to find out for themself.

tlbj6142
02-06-2004, 22:25
Let's face it. Until his book is no longer published, he will always seem "important" to someone. It is unfortunate that many folks don't realize the databook (~$6 or $1.50 if you want last year's) along with ALDHA's companion (http://www.aldha.org/companyn.htm)(free if you want to print it yourself) has the same information, without all of the out of date "recomendations".

In fact the ALDHA makes a point of stating this...

The initial philosophy behind the Companion was that only the most basic information should be provided to make logistics easier for the average long-distance hiker. Opinions, recommendations and other subjective advice were not necessary. In fact, they tended to diminish the individual experience on the trail, replacing personal preference with peer pressure. That philosophy remains unchanged.
From the Companion background page (http://www.aldha.org/logue.htm).

NOTE: I'm amazed at how often "peer pressure" is brought up with regards to thru-hiking. Weird. So much for HYOH.

DeBare
02-07-2004, 06:37
That's not what I said, and you know it.

I know I learn to read in public schools but did you not write "I say that if you have nothing good to say about Trailplace, you don't say it at all."?

weary
02-07-2004, 09:40
according to Weary he "adjusted" letters being sent thru his letterbot) emails. .

This is a totally false accusation. I don't think TJ deliberately lies, though I'm not sure. I suspect he has a congentital inability to get things right.

Weary

c.coyle
02-07-2004, 10:31
Wingy is irrevelent to today's Trail.....

If he's so irrelevant, why are y'all so obsessed with this guy? :-? Am I detecting some sort of envy here?

warren doyle
02-07-2004, 10:45
TJ #22 - You state "If the data he gets for free from the ATC was removed from his handbook it would be less than useless."
Most of the data for the AT Data Book was collected and submitted to ATC by volunteer thru-hikers starting with Ed Garvey/Gus Crews in the early 70's; carefully updated by myself in 1977; and in 1990 the most reliable, careful ground measuring of the trail was done voluntarily by three members of the 1990 Appalachian Trail Circle Expedition. This data was submitted to both the ATC and Dan Bruce.
A better statement would be "If all the data that hikers have collected on a volunteer basis, and that the ATC got for free, were removed from its publications then......."
One question I wanted to ask you TJ (the first and probably the only one). You seem to speak with great authority on AT matters. How long have you been connected with the AT and in what capacities:
maintainer?
guidebook/companion editor?
thru-hiker? have you walked the entire trail? How many miles have you walked on it and where?
I think there are several people on this website that would be interested in your answer.

yellowjacket #26 - As in most publications, the ALDHA Companion cannot claim complete objectivity either.

TJ aka Teej
02-07-2004, 11:17
This is a totally false accusation. Posted by Weary on the at-l;

http://mailman.hack.net/pipermail/at-l/2003-April/015815.html

" Wingfoot had devised a screening
process that automatically kicked out letters that didn't agree with his
position.
---
I'm well aware of Wingfoot's faults."

komodo
02-07-2004, 11:55
Let's face it. Until his book is no longer published, he will always seem "important" to someone. It is unfortunate that many folks don't realize the databook (~$6 or $1.50 if you want last year's) along with ALDHA's companion (http://www.aldha.org/companyn.htm)(free if you want to print it yourself) has the same information, without all of the out of date "recomendations".

In fact the ALDHA makes a point of stating this...

I am by no means an expert on the AT or on the people who support it, but I just wanted to comment on this. In the process of planning my 2004 thru-hike, I have bought the Companion, the Data Book, and Wingfoot's Handbook. In the intro of the 2004 Handbook, Wingfoot states a similar thing to what you quoted from the Companion background page.

"This guide assumes that you are the type of person who wants to form your own opinions about things, so it does not rate the various features on the footpath or businesses and services in towns for you, nor does it dictate to you the "best" or "approved" or "most popular" things to see and do on your hike. By not previewing everything, and by not rating or recommending one trail feature, facility, or service over another, this guide leaves you free to be adventurous and spontaneous during your trek-- to make your own decisions and pursue a personal journey as you hike your own hike."

Your post made me curious, though, so I pulled out the Companion and compared the notes each book gave about a few different towns, and I didn't see any major differences in the content of the information provided or any evidence that Wingfoot was being overly subjective. Maybe he's improved from previous years, or maybe I'm just not reading in the right places.

All in all, I will probably take Wingfoot's book on my thru-hike with me as opposed to the other two, mainly for the reason that his one book contains pretty much all the information in both the other books. But I don't think it really matters all that much. To each their own.

weary
02-07-2004, 12:03
Posted by Weary on the at-l;

http://mailman.hack.net/pipermail/at-l/2003-April/015815.html

" Wingfoot had devised a screening
process that automatically kicked out letters that didn't agree with his
position.
---
I'm well aware of Wingfoot's faults."

Which is totally different from saying he changed (adjusted) the letters. A right wing "property rights" group in Maine discovered his activities, and posted all over the country how to use Wingfoot's site to deliver a counter message. There was great glee in the property rights movement, as they spread the word about how to use Wingfoot to spread their message.

Wingfoot quickly caught on and screened out the messages with the canned words that people who had no idea about what the trail is about were told to include.

Except for a batch of preprinted post cards that came in the last minute from opponents of the trail, figures released by the National Park Service made it clear that more than 90 percent of the public messages received in support for public protection of the trail on Saddleback were generated by Wingfoot's site.

All the Wingfoot internet messages were signed by a real live person and the questions Wingfoot required to be answered in order to use his site to send an email to the Park Service and Congressional people, required the sender to express his concerns in his own words. It was this requirement that each message be different, that made the property right nuts think they could use Wingfoot for their own purposes.

Every participant was given a printout of his message and urged to sign it and send copies by ordinary mail.

It was probably the most sophisticated internet lobbying effort ever undertaken. The comments by critics like TJ tell me that they never bothered to investigate and thus know nothing of what was done or how it was done.

Their comments are on a par with TJ's nonsense about AMC plans for the 100-mile-wilderness.

Weary

attroll
02-07-2004, 12:39
I am by no means an expert on the AT or on the people who support it, but I just wanted to comment on this. In the process of planning my 2004 thru-hike, I have bought the Companion, the Data Book, and Wingfoot's Handbook. In the intro of the 2004 Handbook, Wingfoot states a similar thing to what you quoted from the Companion background page.

"This guide assumes that you are the type of person who wants to form your own opinions about things, so it does not rate the various features on the footpath or businesses and services in towns for you, nor does it dictate to you the "best" or "approved" or "most popular" things to see and do on your hike. By not previewing everything, and by not rating or recommending one trail feature, facility, or service over another, this guide leaves you free to be adventurous and spontaneous during your trek-- to make your own decisions and pursue a personal journey as you hike your own hike."

Your post made me curious, though, so I pulled out the Companion and compared the notes each book gave about a few different towns, and I didn't see any major differences in the content of the information provided or any evidence that Wingfoot was being overly subjective. Maybe he's improved from previous years, or maybe I'm just not reading in the right places.

All in all, I will probably take Wingfoot's book on my thru-hike with me as opposed to the other two, mainly for the reason that his one book contains pretty much all the information in both the other books. But I don't think it really matters all that much. To each their own.
I will have to say a little bit here. Maybe the two books do say simular things about the towns. How can you but not say the same things about the towns. It is not like they are some big city that you have a lot to write about. When you try to make a book short and sweet and to the point you write what everyone wants to know about. So you can not help but say the same things.

A-Train
02-07-2004, 15:07
I'm sorry but I DON'T see the point of this thread or why It was started. DO we need to continually chest thump here and toot our own horn so to speak? Its fairly clear what site is filled with active posters, experienced hikers, lots of dreamers and diverse opinions and the freedom to express them. Why do people feel the need to keep bringing Wingfoot down and bashing him? He's not bothering anyone. If you don't like his politics and censuring, don't go to his site! Its simple. Just leave the guy alone already and move on. One thing about being great is that you should not feel the need to reinforce it. Thats why something is great. Let this site and its accomplishments speak for itself

attroll
02-07-2004, 15:09
I'm sorry but I DON'T see the point of this thread or why It was started. DO we need to continually chest thump here and toot our own horn so to speak? Its fairly clear what site is filled with active posters, experienced hikers, lots of dreamers and diverse opinions and the freedom to express them. Why do people feel the need to keep bringing Wingfoot down and bashing him? He's not bothering anyone. If you don't like his politics and censuring, don't go to his site! Its simple. Just leave the guy alone already and move on. One thing about being great is that you should not feel the need to reinforce it. Thats why something is great. Let this site and its accomplishments speak for itself
Ditto that.

weary
02-07-2004, 15:51
Why do people feel the need to keep bringing Wingfoot down and bashing him? He's not bothering anyone. If you don't like his politics and censuring, don't go to his site! Its simple. Just leave the guy alone already and move on. One thing about being great is that you should not feel the need to reinforce it. Thats why something is great. Let this site and its accomplishments speak for itself

I couldn't agree more. I suspect the bashers tend to be those who can't stand his ego and his politics (A maverick blend of liberal and conservative), and trail wanna bes and hangers on. I'm not out enough anymore to really judge, but I tend to see his book as being the one most often carried by long distance hikers.

Weary

A-Train
02-07-2004, 17:27
I couldn't agree more. I suspect the bashers tend to be those who can't stand his ego and his politics (A maverick blend of liberal and conservative), and trail wanna bes and hangers on. I'm not out enough anymore to really judge, but I tend to see his book as being the one most often carried by long distance hikers.

Weary

Weary, you are right. I'm not making any judgements. I carried the handbook. The majority of thru-hikers I saw carried the handbook. With that being said, the companion is a fine book.

TJ aka Teej
02-08-2004, 21:09
One question I wanted to ask you TJ (the first and probably the only one). You seem to speak with great authority on AT matters. .
What should I do here, pull a Doyle and refuse to answer a direct question?
Nah.. I'm bigger than that. Warren, if you'd click on my name, you'd find some of your answers.
If you'd remember us talking before the AT Trivia match two Dartmouth Gatherings ago (my team came in second to Weathercarrot's) you'd recall I'm "just" a section hiker. You meet/talk with lots of hikers, I won't hold it against a legend if he doesn't remember one of us little people. "Connected"? I joined the ATC in the '80s, I'm not a maintainer - just belong to a maintaining club. Miles? I dunno. All of them between North Adams and Katahdin. Many several times. Lots between Springer and Front Royal. Thanks for asking. Now it's your turn, go back and respond to all the questions you've been asked.

TJ aka Teej
02-08-2004, 21:30
I suspect the bashers tend to be those who can't stand his ego and his politics
It's always fun to see Trailplace members rushing to attack anyone with questions about WF, isn't it? "Don't ask if his self authored legend is true! Don't ask what gear he tests for manufactuers! Don't ask who has attended his hiking seminars! Don't challenge him if he claims he stopped Putnam Mine with emails! Don't ask why he claimed ten thruhikes! Don't ask why he's never spoken to the DataBook's editor! Don't ask questions, just bow before the mighty OzFoot! How dare you even ask?! You.. you.. you BASHER you!"

The basher bashers really need to learn a new tune...

A-Train asked why this thread was started, it was just a troll, and some of us bit. Same thing happens with "Doyle, guns, dogs, and cell phones"..
I'll try to not take the bait anymore, A-Train:D

Lone Wolf
02-08-2004, 21:35
I ain't trollin. I know more than any poster on here about WF. Besides Warren. Maybe. It goes back to 1987... :cool:

TJ aka Teej
02-08-2004, 21:41
I ain't trollin.
Probably not, Wolf - just speaking your mind. Sorry.
And I think we need a new word!
I wasn't thinking about Whiteblaze's very own Troll! :D

Mausalot
02-08-2004, 21:57
Let's say that here on WhiteBlaze I was graciously allowed to post information about my video 2000 Miles to Maine where as on another board that shall remain nameless, my posts were promptly edited even though the video is of extreme relevence to AT thru hikers.

And two people in the video who got married, well they describe how they met on that other board. A lovely moment in the video, so I of course wanted to post information about it there. I was upset when my posts were edited.

The other thing is that these boards feel like public places. Like a coffee shop where you have any conversation you like. So getting edited when you are not spamming, nor off topic seems, well, anti free speech. But I guess that just reminds us that these boards are not public, but private virtual places where we are allowed to post by their owners. However, I do applaud the latitude I see on the board here and assume it will continue.

:dance Cameraman

Jack Tarlin
02-08-2004, 21:59
Teej---

When on earth did he ever claim TEN thru hikes? That's a new one on me. Evidence, please.

weary
02-08-2004, 22:05
It's always fun to see Trailplace members rushing to attack anyone with questions about WF, isn't it? "Don't ask if his self authored legend is true! Don't ask what gear he tests for manufactuers! Don't ask who has attended his hiking seminars! Don't challenge him if he claims he stopped Putnam Mine with emails! Don't ask why he claimed ten thruhikes! Don't ask why he's never spoken to the DataBook's editor!

Ah TJ. You don't ask questions. You make accusations. I've long since admitted that WF isn't perfect, just useful. But when you continue your accusations, (blatherings?), somehow you think my admission of less than perfection is evidence that you are correct. My suggestion is that you think a bit about logic and then try again.

Weary

TJ aka Teej
02-08-2004, 22:10
Teej---

When on earth did he ever claim TEN thru hikes? That's a new one on me. Evidence, please.
In Lynn Setzer's Season on the Trail, the book about the 1996 AT hiking season. I know I'll be corrected if I'm remembering it wrong (heck, I'll be corrected even if I'm remembering it right!).

attroll
02-08-2004, 22:11
Let's say that here on WhiteBlaze I was graciously allowed to post information about my video 2000 Miles to Maine where as on another board that shall remain nameless, my posts were promptly edited even though the video is of extreme relevence to AT thru hikers.

And two people in the video who got married, well they describe how they met on that other board. A lovely moment in the video, so I of course wanted to post information about it there. I was upset when my posts were edited.

The other thing is that these boards feel like public places. Like a coffee shop where you have any conversation you like. So getting edited when you are not spamming, nor off topic seems, well, anti free speech. But I guess that just reminds us that these boards are not public, but private virtual places where we are allowed to post by their owners. However, I do applaud the latitude I see on the board here and assume it will continue.

:dance Cameraman
Maybe you should edit the DVD and change it so when they say which web site they meet on it says WhiteBlaze.net. LOL. I am just kidding. Next time you make a movie put a plug in for us. LOL.

Lone Wolf
02-08-2004, 22:15
Inaccurate book. I met and was interviewed by Lynn that year at Neel's gap. In the book it says I was on my 12th attempt at a thru-hike. Funny stuff. Anyway, WF hasn't hiked since 92. Way out of touch now.

Jack Tarlin
02-08-2004, 22:26
Weary---

Not to overly belabor this thread, as the subject is one that a lot of folks are tired of, but Teej has raised some fair points.....I'm not sure Dan advises gear companies on innovations and improvements or anything else, and I'm also pretty sure that he doesn't speak or lecture in public. There are indeed certain statements in his resume and history that can be questioned. And as to why he doesn't talk to the Data Book's author, this to me is irrelevant. The decision to share Data Book information and to allow it to be published by others was an ATC decision, and was not made by the book's editor.

That being said, this whole subject is pretty lame. The vast majority of the folks who have a stick up their ass over Wingfoot and Trailplace are holding grudges YEARS later because they got tossed off the website, usually be doing or saying something they knew was going to cause a ruckus. People that go to Trailplace, and sign up to use its Forums, do so in the full knowledge that the site is tightly administered, tightly controlled, and not overly welcoming to opposition views; this is NOT a place to have free and open conversations such as those that can be found here and elsewhere on the Internet. People that frequent Trailplace know all of this, so if they insist on going there and manage to get themselves tossed off the site by its owner and administrator, it shouldn't be that big a deal, and certainly isn't something to be petulant and whiny about years later.

Dan's ardently blind defenders are about as much fun to read as his equally stubborn detractors; one side can't acknowledge he's ever gone anything wrong; the other refuses to admit he's ever done anything good. A plague on both your houses!

If you don't like his book, then don't buy it. If you don't like the website that he pays for, then don't go there. But really, guys, aren't there more worthwhile things to discuss here? The Wingfoot discussion has been heard ad nauseum on the Internet for years, especially on the AT-L mailing list, where it raged for years, primarily because of a core group of folks, mostly NOT thru-hikers, who'd been tossed off of Trailplace and were determined to spend the rest of their natural existence moaning about it. It'd be a shame if those tired old rants moved over from AT-L to here; I kind of hope we're above all this.

TJ aka Teej
02-08-2004, 22:33
Ah TJ. You don't ask questions. You make accusations. I've long since admitted that WF isn't perfect, just useful. But when you continue your accusations, (blatherings?), somehow you think my admission of less than perfection is evidence that you are correct. My suggestion is that you think a bit about logic and then try again.

Weary
If a professional journalist wants to call questions accusations to avoid uncomfortable discussions that's up to him. The fact remains that anyone posting *anything* other than praise about WF will be bashed and his comments derided as "blatherings" by a certain few.
Logic? Think about logic yourself, Weary. Is it logical for you to pose Wingy as Quixote just so you can play his Pancho? Or do you just find him "useful" as something to wrap your land trust plugs around?

TJ aka Teej
02-08-2004, 22:50
People that frequent Trailplace know all of this, so if they insist on going there and manage to get themselves tossed off the site by its owner and administrator, it shouldn't be that big a deal, and certainly isn't something to be petulant and whiny about years later.
That's so true. Back before Whiteblaze came into being, people would brag on the at-l about how they just got themselves kicked off his mailing list for the second or third time. It was his list, and those of us who contributed to it for years knew his rules and followed them. I never resubscribed after one of his many cyber crashes, but if I was on it again or on his website I'd follow the rules. Sorry that the movie posts were pulled, but maybe if you emailed him prior to posting you could've worked something out? Wingy answers his email, give it a shot!

attroll
02-09-2004, 00:18
Before WhiteBlaze I was on Wingfoots site. But like TJ said you had to go out of your way to mind your P's and Q's. I remember when he had the Saddleback issue on his site. He asked for feedback on it. I gave my inputs and they were deleted because he did not agree with them. That was not right at all on his part. Asking for inputs and then if he did not like what he got for replies then he delete them. Even since then I was really reluctent to post anything on his site. Then when WhiteBlaze came online I never went back. Well I take that back. I did go back and tried to be friendly over there and when he found out that I was the webmaster of WhiteBlaze he removed my access. I think that was totally bogus. What is he afraid of. I never said anything wrong about him or his site. He has some good info on his site. It is just the forums that are totally one sided. It is his way or no way.

But to tell you the truth I am really getting tired of hearing this issue brought up over and over again. Will it ever be put to rest. It seems like evertime someone gets the boot on Trailplace then they come over here and bitch about it. But I guess people have to vent somewhere.

Maybe people should start going to www.trailplace.net (http://www.trailplace.net) instead of .com.

Needles
02-09-2004, 00:25
Ok, I wasn't going to post anything, but then I got bored and decided to go ahead and jump in.

First I should state that I consider Wingfoot to be a friend, not because I met him once, or because he emailed me a couple of times, no, I have known WF since 1995, he has been kind enough in the past to open up his home to me and give me a place to stay when I was heading to the trail in the Hot Springs area, several times. I have helped him, in minor ways, with his web site, I have enjoyed several meals with him at the Smoky Mtn. Diner in Hot Springs, talk to him on average at least once a week, so on and so forth. So yes, I know him reasonably well as a person, not just as a web personality or as the author of the Handbook.

This has allowed me to hear his side of several of the more contraversial issues that surround him, as far as I know he hasn't publicly voiced his side of things on most of these issues (for several reasons) and so I won't either. Hearing his side however has allowed me to understand why he does some of the seemingly unexplicable things he does. Do I believe his side of things on all of these issues? Well truthfully that is unimportant, I do know however that he believes his side of the story and accordingly he acts on the truth as he sees it. You might see it differently, either of you could be wrong, that's the problem with the truth, it can vary from one person to the next.

Here are a few things that I can tell you, he isn't doing any of this for the money. WF is a smart enough person that he would have quit all of this years ago if he was in it for the money. You try writing, publishing, and selling a book for a very small target audience some time and tell me how wealthy you become. Secondly he can be as hard to get along with in person as he is on the internet. He is very opinionated and isn't in any way shape or form hesitant to express his opinions, however he is also willing to listen to other people's opinions. Just be prepared for him to express exactly what he thinks of your opinions after he listens.

He is also willing to let others express their opinions on his site, as long as those opinions don't directly attack him, use vulgar language and are on topic. If you read the posts on Trailplace you will find lots of them that disagree with WF. Yep, that's right, on TP there are posts that disagree with WF, and I even did a little reseacrh and found that many of the people who posted things not agreeing with WF are still on TP and still posting. Sorry, to say it, but this isn't just the truth, it is fact, I just checked about 2 minutes ago to make sure. WF has rules, and he does enforce those rules, break them and you will be booted, heck, I was kicked off ATML myself, and if you go to TP and start talking about what a jerk WF is he will boot you. It isn't that he thinks he is better than you, it isn't that he thinks he isn't a jerk, he is just tired of dealing with it. I personally don't blame him.

I encouraged WF to get on the internet a year or so before he did, and as soon as he did, infact even before he got online, people were attacking him, some of it was probably fair, some of it wasn't. Ever since then it hasn't stopped and I currently wonder if WF was to win the lottery and then donate all of his winnings to the ATC if 15 minutes later a group of certain individuals wouldn't be questioning his reasons. Lets face it, some people are not going to be happy with WF no matter what he does, some of us think he does quite a bit of good for the trail and for hikers while at the same time understanding he is far from perfect, since we know this is never going to change why are we still discussing it?

attroll
02-09-2004, 00:42
Ok, I wasn't going to post anything, but then I got bored and decided to go ahead and jump in. ect...
Needles

I totally agree with you 95%. The 5% I don't agree with you on is his reason for booting people off his site. I got the boot and email him 3 times asking if I had done anything wrong and if I did let me know so I would not do it again. But he never replied or answered me. So like I said in a previous post. He associated me with the webmaster here at WhiteBlaze and made asumptions and judged me before even getting to know me.

Needles
02-09-2004, 00:50
I totally agree with you 95%. The 5% I don't agree with you on is his reason for booting people off his site. I got the boot and email him 3 times asking if I had done anything wrong and if I did let me know so I would not do it again. But he never replied or answered me. So like I said in a previous post. He associated me with the webmaster here at WhiteBlaze and made asumptions and judged me before even getting to know me.

Well I can't speak for Wingfoot, but I can only imagine after everything that has been said about him and attributed to him, that he really doesn't feel the need to explain himself any more.
I'm just glad that he is still willing to keep at it, I would have given up years ago.

Zeus
02-09-2004, 01:27
There are more commonalities than differences between the two sites. I suspect there are some democraphic differences in age, experience, etc. in who uses which. WhiteBlaze seems to have a few more people who seem less ethusiastic about protecting the trail when it comes to conservation and protecting it from sprawl, motorized intrusion, transmission line corridors, loss of biological diversity, etc.

Trailplace has a single moderator/administrator and has gone through several Avatars (at least three since I have paid attention) so you should compare post numbers for a comparable period. In good literature it is not how often something is said or by how many people, but what is said. There is a lot of gratuitous posting on both (as on most online forums) or so it seems because new people tend to have the same issues. Both have had to delete the posts of those who simply want attention and don't care what grief and mischief they cause in getting it. Both sites provide a great service to the many hikers and potential hikers of the trail (and armchair hikers too I am sure). My thanks to both sites.

weary
02-09-2004, 08:02
If a professional journalist wants to call questions accusations to avoid uncomfortable discussions that's up to him.

I don't give a dam about exaggerations in Wingfoot's resume. I did care a great deal about his efforts to protect Saddleback. And I have contempt for those who distort that effort and who use petty slights as an excuse for failing to have done anything themselves.

Wingfoot has all the ordinary human foibles, and a couple that may be unique to himself. He once kicked me off because I said a good word about Dick Anderson, the founder of the IAT, who I had known for 30 years. Dick had been badly and falsely maligned by Wingfoot, and my conscience required a reply, regardless of site "rules."

Wingfoot called a couple of days later and invited me back.

Weary

max patch
02-09-2004, 11:50
Originally Posted by Jack Tarlin
Teej---

When on earth did he ever claim TEN thru hikes? That's a new one on me. Evidence, please.


In Lynn Setzer's Season on the Trail, the book about the 1996 AT hiking season. I know I'll be corrected if I'm remembering it wrong (heck, I'll be corrected even if I'm remembering it right!).

So what else is new?

WF did not claim 10 thru-hikes. Setzer stated that WF had thru-hiked the trail. He did not quote WF. He did not attribute the statement to WF. Setzer was repeating something he heard without researching the accuracy of the statement. In the front of the book Setzer takes pains to list EVERYONE he talked to researching his book. WF's name is not listed.

Setzer also called WF "an esteemed thru-hiker." Interesting that TJ did not quote this part of the book.

Lone Wolf
02-09-2004, 12:03
Lynn Setzer is a WOMAN, btw. I was interviewed by HER in 96.

Dudeboard
02-09-2004, 14:36
Read somewhere on this site that WF is doing another thruhike in 2005. Anyone know if this is true?

A-Train
02-09-2004, 14:41
Read somewhere on this site that WF is doing another thruhike in 2005. Anyone know if this is true?

Yeah, he said it in one of his posts on his site. Its a 20th anniversary of his 85' thru-hike, his first. Its good enough reason for others to hike that year IMO, just for a chance to talk to Wingfoot away from the computer screens

warren doyle
02-09-2004, 20:00
Another interesting thread to read and ponder.
First, thank you TJ for answering some of my questions on my post (#30). In reply to your post (#39), I have answered many questions on this website and will continue to do so as my info superhighway time permits. But if you have a need to feel 'bigger' than me, please go ahead and be my guest. Based on your answers to my questions, and the info contained in your profile, I will assume that you have some first-hand knowledge of the trail, and ALDHA, from the 1990's on and very little first-hand knowledge/experience about the AT, and ALDHA, before that time. I will also assume that you have not walked the entire AT yet either as a thru-hiker or a section hiker. I will assume that you have knowledge about the Maine trail between Caratunk and Katahdin because of your ALDHA Companion field editorship of this trail section the last few years. I also will assume that you can speak with some authority on section-hiking many parts of the trail.
Jollies - post #20: good!
Komodo - post #32: excellent analysis. Good luck on your 2004 thru-hike. May it be even more than you hoped it would be.
Weary - #33: I agree completely with your second sentence in the next to the last paragraph.
#45: Bravo!
Jack Tarlin #44 and Lone Wolf #48: Thanks for setting TJ straight about his Dan Bruce ten thru-hike statement.
Needles #53 & #55: insightful posts; thanks.
Max Patch - #58: good heading to this post.
Happy trails to all!

Nightwalker
02-09-2004, 20:15
Weary, you are right. I'm not making any judgements. I carried the handbook. The majority of thru-hikers I saw carried the handbook. With that being said, the companion is a fine book.

Why carry either heavy kludge? The data-book has enough info for me, and not nearly so much weight.

Frank

Jack Tarlin
02-09-2004, 20:33
While we're discussing people's hiking resumes and what we can "assume" about their experience based on their answers to specific questions, I have a few myself:

Warren:

As a matter of curiousity, how many times have you thru-hiked? How many of your hikes were self-supported "traditional" backpacking trips, and how many were either mainly or completely vehicle-supported? I see in my tentative Trail Days 2004 Events schedule that you intend to give a talk on your 26,000 A.T. miles; just of simple curiousity, how many of those came about while you were actually wearing a full backpack, and how many came about while either pursuing speed-hiking records, or while leading/partaking in a vehicle-supported hike?

If anyone's wondering why I'm asking this, the answer's simple: In grilling TJ on his hiking history, it seems to me that this was done so Warren could know more about TJ's experience and history on the Trail. (It could probably be argued that Warren's questions to TJ were seemingly made in order to be-little or render insignifcant TJ's right to speak with authority on the Trail or on thru-hiking, but I don't even want to go there, other than to say that the "I've got more miles than you!!" argument is a weak way to score debater's points). But fair is fair. On this site and elsewhere, Warren has remarked that's he's hiked the Trail and accumulated more A.T. miles than anyone else. I am not doubting for a minute that this is true. I am, however, wondering how much of this mileage was accumulated the hard way while actually backpacking a la Earl Shaffer, and how much was accumulated as a day-hiker or car-supported hiker, a la Bill Bryson, most of whose A.T. miles came about as a day-hiker, slackpacker, or car-supported casual walker.
26,000 miles is certainly most impressive, but I'm somewhat curious as to how many of those miles were achieved in part because an automobile helped do most of the hauling.

Lone Wolf
02-09-2004, 20:37
Oh boy here we go. :banana

TJ aka Teej
02-09-2004, 20:55
Funny stuff. Anyway, WF hasn't hiked since 92. Way out of touch now.
I've encouraged him to hit the trail many times, even invited him up to Maine. It's a good thing he's getting back outside and away from his computer.

TJ aka Teej
02-09-2004, 21:00
I have answered many questions on this website and will continue to do so as my info superhighway time permits.
Excellent. I'm sure there are several people on this website who would be interested in getting some answers to questions they've asked you.

TJ aka Teej
02-09-2004, 21:10
WF did not claim 10 thru-hikes. Setzer stated that WF had thru-hiked the trail. He did not quote WF. He did not attribute the statement to WF. Setzer was repeating something he heard without researching the accuracy of the statement. In the front of the book Setzer takes pains to list EVERYONE he talked to researching his book. WF's name is not listed.

Setzer also called WF "an esteemed thru-hiker." Interesting that TJ did not quote this part of the book.
I didn't quote *any* part of the book.
Thanks for confirming that the "ten thruhikes" came from the book, Max.
(Interesting isn't it, that I said even if I was right I'd get corrected?) :D

TJ aka Teej
02-09-2004, 21:21
Lynn Setzer is a WOMAN, btw. I was interviewed by HER in 96.
About Lynn:

Lynn Setzer spent 14 years as a technical writer and publications manager in the software industry. Today she is a member of the faculty at North Carolina State University where she teaches technical writing to engineering and business students. When not in the classroom, Lynn writes travel stories for the Raleigh News and Observer and consults with high-technology companies about their publication requirements. She is an avid hiker, cyclist and sea-kayaker.
Books by author
• A Season on the Appalachian Trail
• 60 Hikes Within 60 Miles: Raleigh
• Great Adventures in North Carolina

warren doyle
02-09-2004, 21:26
Yes, Lone Wolf. Here we go.

Good questions Jack. Although most of the answers I have already given in other parts/threads of this website, I will give them once more since you asked. I am assuming you are referring to my Appalachian Trail hikes rather than the other long distance trails that I have backpacked the "traditional" way.

Q:How many times have you thru-hiked?
A:I have thru-hiked the entire Appalachian Trail seven times (1973; 1975; 1977; 1980; 1990; 1995; 2000). I am planning my 8th thru-hike in 2005. In addition to my seven thru-hikes, I have section-hiked the entire trail five times between 1972 and early April 2000. I plan to complete my 6th section hike of the entire Appalachian Trail by early April 2005. I have walked at least 26,000 miles on the AT up to this date (2/9/04).

Q: How many of your hikes were self-supported "traditional" backpacking trips? and how many were either mainly or completely vehicle-supported
A: Half of my first thru-hike in 1973 (66.3 days)was self-supported. Small parts of my 1975, 1977 and 1980 hikes were self-supported. Approximately two-thirds of my section hikes were self-supported. The remainder of my hikes were mainly or completely vehicle-supported.

Q: How many of those (i.e, 26,000 miles) actually came about while you were wearing a full backpack?
A: Actually this question is hard to answer because I'm sure we differ on what constitutes a 'full' backpack. However, using your initial concept of self-supported backpacking, I would say approximately half - 13,000 miles.

Q: How many came about while either pursuing speed-hiking records, or while leading/partaking in a vehicle-supported hike?
A: I would say approximately half - 13,000 miles.

By the way Jack, I found that organizing six groups to do thru-hikes up the entire Appalachian Trail (three groups taking 110 days each and three groups taking 127 days each) more overall challenging, and rewarding, to me than a self-supported "traditional" backpack would be.

And don't we all hike the trail for the challenges and rewards it offers (in various degrees depending on the individual)?

MOWGLI
02-09-2004, 21:49
Why carry either heavy kludge? The data-book has enough info for me, and not nearly so much weight.

Frank

Here's where I think some hikers go astray with regard to the lightweight hiking thing. Of course, everyone is free to HYOH. This is strictly an opinion - mine.

First of all, neither book is "heavy". The Companion is probably a bit heavier than the Thru-Hikers Guide, but this is just a guess. I have never weighed any piece of gear.

Secondly, most male hikers who are not skin & bones at the start of their hike, will probably lose the equivelant of the weight of one of these books in their first 5 hours on the trail. I was about 240 pounds when I started my hike, carrying nearly 50# in my pack. I was 180 pounds at the end of my hike, carrying 40# in my pack. In other words, I weighed 20# less at the end of my hike (with my pack on) than I did at the start of my hike (with my pack off).

I don't think the weight of one's pack has much to do with the completion rate of the AT. Baltimore Jack & Lone Wolf are excellent examples of that. I guess if I had $1000 in disposable income, I'd purchase a new down bag, a light pack, and other light gear. I don't have that kind of cash though, so I still hike with a 40# pack. What will help you complete the trail is your desire to do just that. You have to be pretty stubborn (others might call that determined).

Of course, some people have medical conditions that require them to carry a lightweight pack.

The Companion & WF's book are very helpful on a hike. They help you make choices when you get off the trail. Where is the laundramat? What are my lodging choices? What are my options for meals? Resupply? If you only bring the databook, you will either be looking at other peoples guidebooks (this defeats the whole idea of self sufficiency) or you will miss out on some of the options in towns along the way.

Frank, I'm not picking on you. This is just my opinion.

Best of luck on your hike.

attroll
04-23-2004, 12:56
It has come to my attention that we have dwelled on this subject of TrailPlace and Wingfoot long enough. We do not want to this to turn into a Trailplace/Wingfoor bashing site. We have so much other productive things to talk about then bashing his site. I think everyone should know by now what his site is about after reading the comments of others.

I have decided to close this thread so we can talk about more upbeat and productive things.
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