View Full Version : Food in tents
Bear Cables
05-07-2008, 10:08
The rain thread is evolving into a food in tent thread so I thought I'd start another for that topic if anyone wants to weigh in...Some hikers have no problem eating in or around their tents and shelters and others like me won't ever do it . Does it really make a difference in weather or not bears are attracted to your camp and tent or is it just chance either way? I had this experience while hiking Philmont with my son's scout troop: We were camped at a campsite that had been having bear activity. One of our scouts went to sleep with a packet of hot chocolate in his pocket. Now, nothing happened that night, no bear. When we got back to base camp we were told there had been a bear attack on another scout, same camp area. The boy had a candy bar in his tent. Just lucky and unlucky?
Lone Wolf
05-07-2008, 10:15
i've been sleeping with my food in my tent for 22 years now. never had a problem. i'll never hang it
sofaking
05-07-2008, 10:15
boy scouts attract bears because they are much sweeter and tender, think veal, and don't put up as much of a fight as backpackers, which tend to smell 'off' and are too rangy...
i cook and eat in/around my tent everytime i go out, and have never had problems with bears, the big ones or the little fun sized ones(mice & other rodents)- just be concious about what you are doing and try not to be a slob...and don't use honey as a masque.but if you're really worried about the issue, don't cook or eat near your tent, and bear bag your food a mile up the trail so you get an early start the next morning.
sofaking
05-07-2008, 10:17
i've been sleeping with my food in my tent for 22 years now. never had a problem. i'll never hang it
because you scare bears, you big meanie...
Frolicking Dinosaurs
05-07-2008, 10:21
Hot chocolate is sealed in a moisture and air-proof pack -- a candy bar isn't -- and my guess is that is why a bear was attracted to the tent with the candy bar, but not to the tent with the hot chocolate..
Bears and other critters are out there foraging for food. I normally do not cook where I sleep and any food kept in the tent goes into a large ziplock baggie so that the odor it may emit is contained. In areas where bears are a problem I generally opt to stealth camp far away from shelters and away from water sources and to bear bag food. I have never had a bear come into my camp when I have done this - even in areas that are having significant bear problems.
sofaking
05-07-2008, 10:23
snickers bar? i'd probably take down a scout or three for a snickers...
If you are hiking in areas where bears are common and sightings regular, follow the advice about food in the tents. Do research on a bears sense of smell. There is good reason you will find suspension cables to hang your food in the Smokies and surrounding areas. As you hike north, however, you will soon find it adequate just to hang you food in the shelters where the greatest threat is from mice, not bears. Several years ago, hikers suggested to have a candy bar or near you as you slept and if you woke up in the middle of the night cold, eat the snack to keep you warm. Do that in a shelter now and the mice will get it as you sleep. I have had mice eat through a pouch I keep on my hipbelt to carry gorp even though the pouch was empty. Now I leave it empty, but also open. Hike the JMT (Yosemite) and you can be fined for not using a bear-proof container for your food. From what I have read about non-grizzly or bear attacks, people got in the bears way in their search for the victim's food. (Polar bears do see people as food...I am not sure about bi-polar bears)
sofaking
05-07-2008, 10:39
bi-polar bears are a hot/cold dilema...never can tell what they're thinking
If you are hiking in areas where bears are common and sightings regular, follow the advice about food in the tents. Do research on a bears sense of smell. There is good reason you will find suspension cables to hang your food in the Smokies and surrounding areas. As you hike north, however, you will soon find it adequate just to hang you food in the shelters where the greatest threat is from mice, not bears. Several years ago, hikers suggested to have a candy bar or near you as you slept and if you woke up in the middle of the night cold, eat the snack to keep you warm. Do that in a shelter now and the mice will get it as you sleep. I have had mice eat through a pouch I keep on my hipbelt to carry gorp even though the pouch was empty. Now I leave it empty, but also open. Hike the JMT (Yosemite) and you can be fined for not using a bear-proof container for your food. From what I have read about non-grizzly or bear attacks, people got in the bears way in their search for the victim's food. (Polar bears do see people as food...I am not sure about bi-polar bears)
This is somewhat good advice (...the further north you get...), but an exception would be Shenandoah National Park. Shelter maintainers are supposed to take down any of the tuna can/string mouse hangers we find, because hanging food in shelters is an invitation for trouble. SNP has a pretty good sized bear population, and there are rare occasions when bears will become aggressive to get at food--including that which is hung in shelters.
It's been a few years, but I recall an incident at Pinefield Hut (SNP South District) where the shelter was packed, and food bags were hung from every rafter. About 2am a rather large black bear decided it was dinner time. Fortunately, no one was injured but a lot of food and gear was victimized.
In SNP, each shelter (actually, they are called "huts" here) has a steel bear pole with hooks from which to hang food bags away from huts. Some have additional bear poles near the closeby designated tentsites. It is strongly recommended you use those.
In heavy bear areas, there are usually bear boxes or hanging devices. That's the only time I bother with it.
Out west, however, is a different story...
invitation for trouble imo. your food is no less safe outside the tent than it is in the tent w/ you.
some people go their whole lives w/o wearing seatbelts too. that's up to them
I have never had problem with bears. However, I do not eat near my tent and I hang my food.
dessertrat
05-07-2008, 11:59
In heavy bear areas, there are usually bear boxes or hanging devices. That's the only time I bother with it.
The fact that the bears are "heavy" in those areas shows how well it works.
sofaking
05-07-2008, 12:00
bringing a 'lone wolf' to guard your food and your person from bears is quickly becoming the standard practice on the trail these days, so much so, that 'lone wolfs' have been observed to be acting more and more anti-social and curmudgeonly towards hikers and bears...
bloodmountainman
05-07-2008, 12:06
i've been sleeping with my food in my tent for 22 years now. never had a problem. i'll never hang it
Same with me.... never had a problem. Much ado over nothing.
hopefulhiker
05-07-2008, 12:42
I had a bear come to my tent one night in NC... I had hung a bear bag but had left a candy bear in my pocket.. I hung my food about 90 percent of the time... Sometimes if a bunch of other people were hanging there food off the strings in the shelter then I would do it to.. but I lost some food to enterprising mice who beat the litte shields around the hangers once.. Mice are a bigger problem than bears.. Up North they had these big metal bear boxes to protect the food... but the mice can still get in. One chewed a hole through my pack!
glacier48
05-07-2008, 12:45
I not only worry about myself eating and keeping food in my tent, I worry about those after me. Bears, squirrel, and skunks become accustomed to finding food and hikers together. This can cause some major issues and injuries. I almost always hang a bear bag so as to lessen the connection between hikers and food.
I also care alot for bears and I worry that my carelessness could shorten the life of a bear because it needs to be shot because of injuries to humans. I try to do as little impact on nature as I can, whether it is to the land, water or animals.
Just my thoughts.
Glacier
KnowledgeEngine
05-07-2008, 13:03
I tend to try to keep something like a granola bar(or other not esp. aromatic snack) in my hammock with me. Same reason as above poster, If I wake up cold I can eat it to warm up. I know some people say the odors from the packaging will get me attacked, but you must not have smelled the aftermath of my dinners. I think that is bear mace enough on my part.
Berserker
05-07-2008, 13:10
I'm a little "bear-anoid" at times. Not to the point of it being a disorder mind you, but rather just to that point that I don't want one coming into camp at night harrassing me. So I almost always hang my food using the PCT method (cause racoons chewed it down once when I was using the traditional "tie it off to a tree" method). I have slept with my food in my tent before, and in over 6 years of hiking in the SE have never actually seen a bear. Personally I think hanging food is good practice.
As for cooking, if you are keeping the food in your pack when you are hiking (which I assume you are) then trace amounts of food smells are getting on your gear. It is inevitable. So I don't feel cooking around camp is a big deal. I have only once seen direct evidence of a bear being attracted by the food smells when cooking. That was one night a couple of years ago in the Smokys. That joker showed up right after I dumped my Mountainhouse meal in the water. He never got close enough to camp for me to see him though, I could only hear him plodding around in the woods. My buddy walked out towards the noise to see if he could catch a glimpse. Shortly after he showed up he disappeared, and we didn't hear him again that night.
Bear Cables
05-07-2008, 14:34
Hot chocolate is sealed in a moisture and air-proof pack -- a candy bar isn't -- and my guess is that is why a bear was attracted to the tent with the candy bar, but not to the tent with the hot chocolate..
Bears and other critters are out there foraging for food. I normally do not cook where I sleep and any food kept in the tent goes into a large ziplock baggie so that the odor it may emit is contained. In areas where bears are a problem I generally opt to stealth camp far away from shelters and away from water sources and to bear bag food. I have never had a bear come into my camp when I have done this - even in areas that are having significant bear problems.
The hot chocolate was opened.:eek: But I too don't cook or eat around my shelter and I hang it. I've been hiking for 12 years and have seen one bear. It was foraging below the trail heading the opposite direction.:)
Bear Cables
05-07-2008, 14:38
This is somewhat good advice (...the further north you get...), but an exception would be Shenandoah National Park. Shelter maintainers are supposed to take down any of the tuna can/string mouse hangers we find, because hanging food in shelters is an invitation for trouble. SNP has a pretty good sized bear population, and there are rare occasions when bears will become aggressive to get at food--including that which is hung in shelters.
It's been a few years, but I recall an incident at Pinefield Hut (SNP South District) where the shelter was packed, and food bags were hung from every rafter. About 2am a rather large black bear decided it was dinner time. Fortunately, no one was injured but a lot of food and gear was victimized.
In SNP, each shelter (actually, they are called "huts" here) has a steel bear pole with hooks from which to hang food bags away from huts. Some have additional bear poles near the closeby designated tentsites. It is strongly recommended you use those.
How's the bear pole work compared to the cable system. I've only seen the cables. May sound like a stupid question, but can't the bear climb the pole?
Bear Cables
05-07-2008, 14:41
I not only worry about myself eating and keeping food in my tent, I worry about those after me. Bears, squirrel, and skunks become accustomed to finding food and hikers together. This can cause some major issues and injuries. I almost always hang a bear bag so as to lessen the connection between hikers and food.
I also care alot for bears and I worry that my carelessness could shorten the life of a bear because it needs to be shot because of injuries to humans. I try to do as little impact on nature as I can, whether it is to the land, water or animals.
Just my thoughts.
Glacier
I agree with you so strongly about this.
Bear Cables
05-07-2008, 14:44
I have only once seen direct evidence of a bear being attracted by the food smells when cooking. That was one night a couple of years ago in the Smokys. That joker showed up right after I dumped my Mountainhouse meal in the water. He never got close enough to camp for me to see him though, I could only hear him plodding around in the woods. My buddy walked out towards the noise to see if he could catch a glimpse. Shortly after he showed up he disappeared, and we didn't hear him again that night.
You dumped your leftovers in the water!:eek::eek:
. . . My buddy walked out towards the noise to see if he could catch a glimpse. Shortly after he showed up he disappeared, and we didn't hear him again that night.
You do mean the bear, not your buddy, right? :eek:
rdpolete
05-07-2008, 15:09
Well I am an old Eagle Scout and take the Philmont philosophy when it comes to bears. I think they refer to it as the triangle. I hang everything food, cook pot, toiletries, first aide kit and anything else that has a smell. Have had a couple of bear encounters in NM and Colorado but never in or near my tent.
sofaking
05-07-2008, 15:13
i have a bear skin rug...i like to roll around on it and pretend i'm wrasslin' him over a snickers bar, that way i got some moves ready should this ever happen for real. of course i probably won't be naked if it happens for real.:-?
^^^ that might be post of the day.
Bear Cables
05-07-2008, 16:35
Well I am an old Eagle Scout and take the Philmont philosophy when it comes to bears. I think they refer to it as the triangle. I hang everything food, cook pot, toiletries, first aide kit and anything else that has a smell. Have had a couple of bear encounters in NM and Colorado but never in or near my tent.
They call it the "Bear-muda" Triangle. For those who don't know, the triangle is the three points : cooking area, clean up area and bear bag. The tent is always outside of the triangle. Two time Philmonter and mom of two Eagles.
Bear Cables
05-07-2008, 16:36
i have a bear skin rug...i like to roll around on it and pretend i'm wrasslin' him over a snickers bar, that way i got some moves ready should this ever happen for real. of course i probably won't be naked if it happens for real.:-?
I DON"T EVEN want a picture of that!:D
sofaking
05-07-2008, 16:37
heh heh...bare wrasslin'...:eek:
envirodiver
05-07-2008, 16:43
i have a bear skin rug...i like to roll around on it and pretend i'm wrasslin' him over a snickers bar, that way i got some moves ready should this ever happen for real. of course i probably won't be naked if it happens for real.:-?
Good luck with that. You may want to have a knife in your teeth. Don't know, but it seems to work for Tarzan when he was kicking all that Lion butt.
sofaking
05-07-2008, 16:50
lions are big pussies with no courage, everybody knows that...i larned how to wrassle crocodillys watching mr. weismuller on the t.v.
envirodiver
05-07-2008, 17:15
lions are big pussies with no courage, everybody knows that...i larned how to wrassle crocodillys watching mr. weismuller on the t.v.
Yeah I saw Marlin Perkins jump in the Amazon or some such river after an Anaconda that was swimming by. Kind of surprised, cause he usually just fetched Jim after stuff. That snake was all over Marlin, he wasn't doing so good. The snake was enormous, longer than his canoe. Crew had to jump over to help out and there was a break in the filming I think. Just rememebr that oh S*** look on Marlin's face.
This thread hijack brought to you by Mutual of Omaha, back to your regularly scheduled thread.
envirodiver
05-07-2008, 17:17
lions are big pussies with no courage, everybody knows that.
Pssst...the Wizard of OZ was not real
sofaking
05-07-2008, 17:26
Pssst...the Wizard of OZ was not real
!?:eek:?!!!
sofaking
05-07-2008, 17:28
but you were there, and so was my dog, and...oh, i don't know anymore mr. envirodiver, it all seemed so real!..
How's the bear pole work compared to the cable system. I've only seen the cables. May sound like a stupid question, but can't the bear climb the pole?
I like the cable system design better, but it does require maintenance. The bear poles are pretty much maintenance-free. Both work equally well.
I've never heard of a bear climbing one of SNP's bear poles, tho I have heard of users whose food was obtained by a bear because they hung it on a bear pole hook using a long drawstring that made the object of the bear's desire easy to reach.
Berserker
05-07-2008, 17:36
You dumped your leftovers in the water!:eek::eek:
Oops...that got worded wrong. I meant after I dumped the contents of the Mountainhouse package into my pot of water to let it reconstitute. I never dump food anywhere in the backcountry.
Berserker
05-07-2008, 17:38
You do mean the bear, not your buddy, right? :eek:
No, my buddy disappeared and the bear and I hung out...just kidding...yeah, I mean that the bear disappeared.
envirodiver
05-07-2008, 17:41
but you were there, and so was my dog, and...oh, i don't know anymore mr. envirodiver, it all seemed so real!..
It's all right, I'm not a scarecrow.
And NO YOU CAN'T SEE THE WIZARD!!!
envirodiver
05-07-2008, 17:42
Oops...that got worded wrong. I meant after I dumped the contents of the Mountainhouse package into my pot of water to let it reconstitute. I never dump food anywhere in the backcountry.
Just curious why do you do that? Does it reconstitute better in the pot than in the bag?
sofaking
05-07-2008, 17:43
but he's no real wizard, he's a big 'ol phoney! and a mean man too...
envirodiver
05-07-2008, 17:47
but he's no real wizard, he's a big 'ol phoney! and a mean man too...
I haven't watched that in years.. the flying monkeys scare me too much and give me nightmares.
Berserker
05-07-2008, 17:48
Just curious why do you do that? Does it reconstitute better in the pot than in the bag?
Neither one is better for reconstituting the food. I just like eating out of my pot. I have eaten out of the bags before, and I can't stand digging into the corners trying to scrape out those last little bits of food.
envirodiver
05-07-2008, 17:49
Neither one is better for reconstituting the food. I just like eating out of my pot. I have eaten out of the bags before, and I can't stand digging into the corners trying to scrape out those last little bits of food.
I hear yah, I freezer bag and the same thing. I bought one of the long handled spoons. It's nice cause you don't get food all over your hands from reaching down into the bag.
As I've said before, sleeping with your food in your tent in the Southeastern US is not much of a bear problem, though maybe in some high-use areas like GSMNP, but it's the other critters that will pester you all night. I've had numerous times where I forgot something (hung most of my food) and had skunks and/or mice sliding around, running up and down the tent (mice) and what not.
I have no idea why a few like LW never have a problem with this, but all I can speak to is what I've experienced. Bears are generally not on my mind at all, but rather the other critters that will keep you awake all night with food in your tent. Hang it or Bear Vault it and sleep well my friends! ;)
Cherokee Bill
05-07-2008, 18:23
i've been sleeping with my food in my tent for 22 years now. never had a problem. i'll never hang it
:-? Sleep with mine to. Never a problem for 23+ years :sun Know a fellow who puts out one (1) moth-ball each night. Picks it up in the morning and re-uses it over and over. Animals hate the stuff :eek: It's an individual decision!:p
Lone Wolf
05-07-2008, 21:28
:-? Sleep with mine to. Never a problem for 23+ years :sun Know a fellow who puts out one (1) moth-ball each night. Picks it up in the morning and re-uses it over and over. Animals hate the stuff :eek: It's an individual decision!:p
anal, paranoid BS is all
Metal Bear poles may work for bears but are a buffet for other rodents. You just have to hope they only chew one hole in your food bag and not your pack and only ruin one meal. That was my experience at Pass Mountain Hut begining of June.
sofaking
05-07-2008, 22:16
anal, paranoid BS is all
moth balls in the anus? that's crazy talk...
greentick
05-07-2008, 22:26
I haven't watched that in years.. the flying monkeys scare me too much and give me nightmares.
Flying monkeys can get your food when its on cables or poles... If they ever align with the bears we're in trouble...
what does teh tin man do with his food? internal storage:D?
sofaking
05-07-2008, 22:29
Metal Bear poles may work for bears but are a buffet for other rodents. You just have to hope they only chew one hole in your food bag and not your pack and only ruin one meal. That was my experience at Pass Mountain Hut begining of June.
what critter can get to a food bag on the metal bear poles in the 'doahs?
4eyedbuzzard
05-07-2008, 22:42
moth balls in the anus? that's crazy talk...
Ben-Wa mothballs? Hmm. That is crazy. And undoubtably an unacceptable practice in San Francisco or Fire Island, NY.
sofaking
05-07-2008, 22:47
Ben-Wa mothballs? Hmm. That is crazy. And undoubtably an unacceptable practice in San Francisco or Fire Island, NY.
the op only mentioned one moth ball, and the guy used it over and over again...lw called him paranoid, i just think it's unsanitary...and twisted. how's that going to keep bears out of your tent?
Bear Cables
05-07-2008, 23:27
Oops...that got worded wrong. I meant after I dumped the contents of the Mountainhouse package into my pot of water to let it reconstitute. I never dump food anywhere in the backcountry.
Oh! So glad that got clarified!:sun
Bear Cables
05-07-2008, 23:39
the op only mentioned one moth ball, and the guy used it over and over again...lw called him paranoid, i just think it's unsanitary...and twisted. how's that going to keep bears out of your tent?
OooooKay, think were getting a little off topic.:o
sofaking
05-07-2008, 23:47
OooooKay, think were getting a little off topic.:o
that's what i was trying to figure out...who puts moth balls anywhere other than the blanket chest?
4eyedbuzzard
05-08-2008, 00:08
We ALWAYS get off topic. ;)
Back on topic...
Many years ago in GSMNP I woke one morning to a noise and zipped open the tent door only to come face to face with a black bear. It was 10 feet tall and weighed about 1000 lbs. Okay, okay, I know, but at that distance they all look 10' - 1000#. Probably more like 250# or so. It let out a woof and ran off. Vital signs(mine): pulse 200+, Adrenaline level out of range. No coffee needed that morning.
There was no food in the tent, although there were undoubtably odors. No matter how careful we think we are being, we humans retain the odors of the foods we eat, and no amount of care can reduce those odors below the threshold of what a bear can smell. A bear's sense of smell is some 7 times better than a bloodhound's and bloodhounds can follow trace scents days and even weeks old. All the soap and water, toothpaste, and hand sanitizer in the world isn't going to cover up the smell of food on you and your gear. If the smell of food was so attractive to bears that they would rip into anything they smelled, bears would simply be attacking hikers as they hiked along with their food in their packs. The woods would be littered with mauled packs and hikers.
I think to a great degree bears are just curious by nature and poke around alot. But they seem to avoid humans like the plague. Unless they've become acclimated to human contact, usually they want nothing to do with people, even if they have food in their possession.
I'm not saying not to follow bear box rules etc. I just think that there is a lot more to bear behavior than them just being automatons following odors and shredding everthing that smells like food.
dessertrat
05-08-2008, 03:14
Bears are too smart to be automatons, it's true. Many modern biologists think they are smarter than dogs, and perhaps smarter than great apes.
Pokey2006
05-08-2008, 03:30
If bears learn that humans equal food (in places like SNP, more from car campers than hikers), then it's probably the smell of HUMANS that attracts the bears. Which means no matter what you do with your food, if one of these human-desensitized bears is in the area and catches a wiff of you, chances are it'll pay you a visit. And not necessarily because it smelled your food.
I'd never not hang after I woke up one rainy evening to drain the lizard and low and behold saw a blackbear underneath my foodbag and the next morning when I went over to take it down saw the size of the footprints underneath my hanging location... no I'll hang because I'd like to minimize the chances of becoming a bear burrito
Being in Pa has brought me close to several Bear experiences. Although I only have had a handful of close encounters on the AT. The more spine quivering ones have happened in backcountry areas in the middle of the state. All and all, I would love to do what LW and a couple o others do and keep the food with you. I dont know how its never been a problem but if it works for you great.
In the bear activity areas I have to hang food. I do the 200 foot thing; cook 200ft from tent, clean 200ft from tent (and water source if possible) and hang 200ft from any other area (tent, cooking area, water and poop place)
If I cant do 200ft, its a distance which may only be able to be 50ft in each direction.
I go out there with novice groups alot. Even if I have no problems and MY decisions at a certian time is to not do any of this....I owe it to the people I am bringing into this enviornment to go sort of by the book.
What I try to accomplish in the routine is to get across the fact we are in the bears home (as well as all the other critters).
When you meet new friends or family, you have to address yourself and your actions on how you want to be preceived by these new aquantiances. Same goes for out there. You dont want to be slobby because big Ben or Bubba Bertha bears will sooner or later let you know your housekeeping sucks..... most of the time that only comes in the form of a "sighting". Which should tell you your getting sloppy somewhere in your actions.
Among my closest encounters have all been around the trash dump station in a friends Pocono community. These bears are different in that they have been influenced that people are putting food remants out for them. They dont know its out there so it will be compacted and hauled away. They are foraging on whats available, which unfortunately are things that really arent naturally available to them. They arent going to pass off handouts, therefore they show up at these places.
earlyriser26
05-08-2008, 09:01
Normally I keep my food in the tent with me. 1) It is where I need it. 2) The only time animals have gotten into my food is when I've hung it. 3) There are so many food smells on me, my tent, etc. I don't believe that any food in my pack would add to it. If I was in an area known for problems then I might hang it.
sofaking
05-09-2008, 13:42
:-? Sleep with mine to. Never a problem for 23+ years :sun Know a fellow who puts out one (1) moth-ball each night. Picks it up in the morning and re-uses it over and over. Animals hate the stuff :eek: It's an individual decision!:p
you ever smell moth balls? getting their little legs apart is difficult, but...
OwlsRevenge
05-13-2008, 22:17
In the end,..........if you are that unlucky soul that finds himself or herself being crunched up by the business end of a black bear, do you really want your last thoughts to be "nom,nom,nom.... Gee...I guess I should have probably taken the time to hang that food bag outside....Nom,nom,nom"
Not me. it's a minor inconvience compared to becoming some bear's dinner.
Lone Wolf
05-14-2008, 01:14
In the end,..........if you are that unlucky soul that finds himself or herself being crunched up by the business end of a black bear, do you really want your last thoughts to be "nom,nom,nom.... Gee...I guess I should have probably taken the time to hang that food bag outside....Nom,nom,nom"
Not me. it's a minor inconvience compared to becoming some bear's dinner.
you're a paranoid weenie
River Runner
05-14-2008, 04:30
Call me paranoid, but I always bear bag. After an experience last fall in eastern West Virginia where we had bears wandering around in camp most of the night, I probably always will. I have no desire to test to see if food in the tent makes a difference in whether the bear decides to come in and get up close and personal.
i always hang my bag. i was in the gsmnp, years back, and got into camp very late. i ate, then i hung my pot on the outside of the cage. i got woke up in the early morning hours to a bear licking my pot clean.[i probably should have thanked him for that]. at walnut mountain shelter i hung my food bag and went to sleep. a few hours later a bear came by the tent a few times. scared me to death. i then remembered that my cook pot was in the tent. i opened the door and threw it towards my food bag and went back to sleep. i would rather not take any chances, so i hang everything now. i used to use my sleepingbag stuff sack for my food bag. after a few nights i realized that it probably made my bag smell like food. i stopped that practice. next time i'm out tenting it, i think i'll take LW or somebody else who keeps food in their tent. i'll be able to have a bear and rodent free night. i also wonder how food sources, berries, being plentyfull or not has anything to do with animal incounters in the woods.
glacier48
05-14-2008, 09:36
Part of the idea of hanging a bear bag is to give the bear something to do before he gets to me in my tent. Hopefully hanging the bag far enough away from the tent and the tent door will give me a chance to back away/run from the situation.
Glacier
Farr Away
05-14-2008, 10:12
We backpack almost exclusively in the GSMNP. In our last 10 trips, we've seen black bears 3 times while hiking. We've heard something that was likely a bear 2 or 3 other times, and we've had a bear come into our campsite once. We didn't know about that until we saw the tracks the next morning. We ALWAYS hang our whole pack - everything we're not using for the night.
FWIW YMMV.
sofaking
05-14-2008, 10:16
i always hang my bag... i ate, then i hung my pot on the outside of the cage. i got woke up in the early morning hours to a bear licking my pot clean....i hung my food bag and went to sleep. a few hours later a bear came by the tent a few times. scared me to death. i then remembered that my cook pot was in the tent. ...
sounds like hanging your food has nothing to do with your problem...maybe you should learn to be a little bit more clean in your cooking habits.
Wise Old Owl
05-14-2008, 10:16
Arn't you supposed to put the food in the tent and bag the scout & hang that in the tree? - Darn this isn't the humor section either.....
SofaKing - that Mothball joke is very very weird.....
Seriously Folk's, First hand keeping food out of the tent has little to do with bears. I once put a well wrapped food bag on a stump and went back to the car for the next load. I came back with more camp gear and saw a small hole in the poly sack! I looked and followed the hole all they way up through the center of bread. The loaf was destroyed, the bags were destroyed. That shelter mouse was one lucky well fed mouse. Think about all the scavangers out there, possums, skunks, rats, raccoons - Do you want a 1 1/2 hole to patch your tent?
i've changed all the bad habits. at that time i was fairly new to backpacking. i grew up in the midwest where there was no bears to worry about. now i hang everything from the bears and rodents. the longer i hike, the more i learn!
We bear bagged on our section last year and we had to learn how to really do it Our first night we were warned about a bear in the area so we got thrus to help us hang and saw the scat the next day The thrus were nothing but helpful to us It was a rite of passage and we all learned how to hang our bag Our big problem here is racoons Those suckers can open a jar of peanut butter-those opposeabe thumbs!
Why are so many shiiiiitting the pants over blacks?This has to be a joke?
I just got a 500 SW for GRIZZ in AK and that may not due.....but a black no gun,spray needed.
Wise Old Owl
05-17-2008, 12:54
Flying monkeys can get your food when its on cables or poles... If they ever align with the bears we're in trouble...
what does teh tin man do with his food? internal storage:D?
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:DC-tWSjpKzSjqM:http://bp3.blogger.com/_RyLXU4GPzEk/Ru8PsS3R9SI/AAAAAAAAA_Q/VdGqsAlT_-8/s400/flying-monkeys-oz-tin-sign.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://bp3.blogger.com/_RyLXU4GPzEk/Ru8PsS3R9SI/AAAAAAAAA_Q/VdGqsAlT_-8/s400/flying-monkeys-oz-tin-sign.jpg&imgrefurl=http://hecatedemetersdatter.blogspot.com/2007/09/we-have-just-begun-to-fight-and-we-are.html&h=400&w=255&sz=28&hl=en&start=15&sig2=as1VvB2cdoBFgcG2QEj-wA&tbnid=DC-tWSjpKzSjqM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=79&ei=bA0vSKA_jIZ6yPDd3AE&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dflying%2Bmonkeys%2Boz%26gbv%3D2%26hl% 3Den)Watch out for the witches hiding in the wood.
OregonHiker
05-17-2008, 13:45
Well I am an old Eagle Scout and take the Philmont philosophy when it comes to bears. I think they refer to it as the triangle. I hang everything food, cook pot, toiletries, first aide kit and anything else that has a smell. Have had a couple of bear encounters in NM and Colorado but never in or near my tent.
"Bearnuda Triangle"
And then there are the "Mini Bears"
dessertrat
05-17-2008, 14:26
It's not fear of the bears, it's love of our food. ;)
Screw that. Black Bears can and have killed and eaten people, not by accident, but on purpose. I'm not saying you should be "bearanoid", but I would not mess with a big old hungry boar or a momma with cubs.
OwlsRevenge
05-17-2008, 14:40
OMG, now I've gotta get the human smell off me? ;) LOL
Bear Cables
05-17-2008, 15:03
"Bearnuda Triangle"
And then there are the "Mini Bears"
Right! Really cute buy they can tear a pack up!
Bare Bear
05-17-2008, 16:41
I always hang my food as much from mice, the many crawling animals of Fl and oh yeah bears. I have had a few bears around camps- I nor my mates got hurt- the bears did not get the food.
Ask Dick Tracy about being in a shelter and seeing at 3 am a hiker with food get dragged out of the shelter and about thirty yards!!!! before the bear gave up and left. Do you think he hangs his food now? DT says he tried to tell the guy earlier and was ridiculed. It really made DT upset that his kids and wife were in that shelter that night too, but thoughtfully the bear went to the food source instead of just grabbing a child.
I normally do not cook where I sleep and any food kept in the tent goes into a large ziplock baggie so that the odor it may emit is contained. In areas where bears are a problem
Bears can smell right through any packaging. Packaging makes no difference to a bear. Bears can even pick up your sent on the ground you walked across.
Panzer
I have never had problem with bears. However, I do not eat near my tent and I hang my food.
On the AT it probably doesn't help to not eat near your tent. If you are tenting where other hikers before you tented, then they probably ate right were you put your tent and they probably threw food scraps on the ground or at least dropped a few crumbs. That alone will attract bears for days, maybe even for weeks.
Panzer
Touch of Grey
05-17-2008, 18:46
Go to this website and listen. It is very enlightening
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/79323
:banana :confused: :D
Part of the idea of hanging a bear bag is to give the bear something to do before he gets to me in my tent. Hopefully hanging the bag far enough away from the tent and the tent door will give me a chance to back away/run from the situation.
Glacier
Yea, I second that. In military terminology its called a diversionary move.
Panzer
You could always just set 2lb of bacon 1 mile from camp and hope he's not a big eater.:D
Let's face it ,black's on % are no fear.
TIDE-HSV
05-17-2008, 21:46
I've hesitated to throw anything in here, since there seems to be as much tenets of faith being tossed around as anything based on fact. I've had many encounters with black bears. I've had my food robbed in Wyoming and I've had my wife's pack stolen in the GSMNP. I've never yet failed at being able to run them off with shouts and rock-throwing (and I don't have the greatest arm). All this said, I don't believe in taking chances. I buckle up to drive fifty feet. For that reason, I hang food, just because I don't want to be the victim of a lightning strike-type of bad luck incident. Black bears have killed 14 known victims in this decade and most of those were partially eaten. I think I'm more at risk from drunken drivers, but, all said, I think we should all do what we can reasonably do to reduce risks, even remote ones. It's not that hard to take advantage of cable systems, etc. As for ropes, great when they work. The weekend after my wife's pack was taken at Sheep Pen Gap, I went up to try and recover it. However, I learned that the bear had learned how to chew through ropes in the intervening week. I didn't even make the climb - no reason to donate another pack...
Bear Cables
05-18-2008, 10:18
I've hesitated to throw anything in here, since there seems to be as much tenets of faith being tossed around as anything based on fact. I've had many encounters with black bears. I've had my food robbed in Wyoming and I've had my wife's pack stolen in the GSMNP. I've never yet failed at being able to run them off with shouts and rock-throwing (and I don't have the greatest arm). All this said, I don't believe in taking chances. I buckle up to drive fifty feet. For that reason, I hang food, just because I don't want to be the victim of a lightning strike-type of bad luck incident. Black bears have killed 14 known victims in this decade and most of those were partially eaten. I think I'm more at risk from drunken drivers, but, all said, I think we should all do what we can reasonably do to reduce risks, even remote ones. It's not that hard to take advantage of cable systems, etc. As for ropes, great when they work. The weekend after my wife's pack was taken at Sheep Pen Gap, I went up to try and recover it. However, I learned that the bear had learned how to chew through ropes in the intervening week. I didn't even make the climb - no reason to donate another pack...
I soooo agree with you. I have decided to cut weight in my pack in all possible areas to make up for the 2.5 lbs of the bear canister. Just for my own peace of mind.
I soooo agree with you. I have decided to cut weight in my pack in all possible areas to make up for the 2.5 lbs of the bear canister. Just for my own peace of mind.
What? :confused:
Are you saying you carry a bear canister on the AT?
Panzer
4eyedbuzzard
05-18-2008, 13:52
I soooo agree with you. I have decided to cut weight in my pack in all possible areas to make up for the 2.5 lbs of the bear canister. Just for my own peace of mind.
You don't ned a 2 1/2 pound footstool/bear canister. Use a stuff bag to hold your food that is in ziplocks. If a bear does manage to chew your rope(pretty remote possibility) and does get at it, so what? Hike out and get more food. Most days and nights you'll never see a bear. 4 or 5 sightings of a bear's back end running away is probably more than what most thru-hikers ever see over the full length of the trail.
Bear Cables
05-18-2008, 15:50
What? :confused:
Are you saying you carry a bear canister on the AT?
Panzer
To each her own. I just don't like trying to find a sturdy enough or right enough branch to throw a line over when I hike into camp late. 4 of the shelters we are stopping at don't have cables. I know how to hang a bag done it lots of time but I don't like doing late. Seems to me a canister would be easier. But that's just me....
What? :confused:
Are you saying you carry a bear canister on the AT?
PanzerI do! Not only for bears, but for all the other critters that keep you up all night, eat holes in your hanging bags, pack, tent, etc. It is convenient, makes a great little personal table next to my ThermaRest chair w/Big Agnes Dual Core mattress . . . easy chair with a table makes for nice comfort in camp. After a long day's hike, why not pamper yourself with some creature comforts with very little added weight, given the comfort and convenience provided? Many people put down what they haven't tried. Try this setup and you'll keep on using it! ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/wellsjs/Misc/IMAGE_071.jpg
TIDE-HSV
05-18-2008, 17:35
If a bear does manage to chew your rope(pretty remote possibility) and does get at it, so what?
Not true at all. In the case of the bear which got my wife's pack, they'd closed the site again for the umpteenth time, but they gave me special permission to go back in and try to recover the pack. Each time I talked to them, I asked if the bear had figured out ropes and they said "No." At the trail, head, by lucky coincidence, a couple of guys from FL with a young boy were just coming down. I asked them where they stayed and they said "#13." I asked them if they had any trouble with the bear and if he'd learned to chew through ropes. They said he'd chewed through four different arrangements and they'd finally had to stay up all night, alternating watches. That's when I decided not even to try. If you get a chance to visit the Big Creek ranger station in the GSMNP, take a look at their display of what bears have defeated for food.
As for hiking out for more food, when the bear got into my food in WY, it was the second day of a 11 day trip. To get out, I'd've had to hike 17.5 miles over a 11.8K' pass to get to my car and then drive 35 miles further, mostly over mountain roads, and through an indian reservation for more food. It would have ruined my honeymoon. Luckily, he'd bitten into my lemon for fish in the top of my food bag, which I'd hung low because I didn't expect bear problems, it's being an area open for hunting. His bites on the lemons looked like razor slices. Then, he went in from the bottom and found the gorp, which he loved and turned a substantial portion of into a chocolate/nut slurry, and that's when I caught him and ran him off. Well, you're not supposed to try to run a bear off of food, but it was a desperate situation. It was him or us, so to speak. When we got back to the car, I mentioned the incident to the outfitters where we'd parked. Didn't realize they were also game guides. When we went back a couple of years later, I met the bear again - as a rug on their wall...
saimyoji
05-18-2008, 18:37
When we went back a couple of years later, I met the bear again - as a rug on their wall...
best reason to carry
TIDE-HSV
05-18-2008, 19:33
LOL! So I could have killed and eaten him right there? Novel way of making him pay for the gorp. There was a little more to the story. Two days before, we'd come in very late, in the middle of a storm and we'd camped illegally, too close to a lake. The next AM, we'd moved up the hill, and, not worried about bears, I'd left the food down by the lake, hung low. The next AM, when I woke up, with a little altitude headache, I glanced down and saw that my food bag's rope was not stretched any more, but in a "V" and swinging. That's when I saw the bear underneath. I went charging down the hill, cursing and throwing rocks and connecting. He went running up the hill and disappeared in a thicket. I brought the food bag back up the hill to examine the damage and my wife had to answer a call of nature and headed up the hill. A short interval later, I glanced up to see her hurrying down the hill, pulling up her pants. Then, I saw the bear exit the thicket to the north at high speed. I don't know which was the more scared...
As for hiking out for more food, when the bear got into my food in WY, it was the second day of a 11 day trip. To get out, I'd've had to hike 17.5 miles over a 11.8K' pass to get to my car and then drive 35 miles further, mostly over mountain roads, and through an indian reservation for more food.
Replacing food on the AT is a lot easier than it is in WY. There are no 11.8K mountains on the AT.
Panzer
TIDE-HSV
05-19-2008, 00:39
I practice about the same wherever I am (no more assuming no bears around). But, as I said, I buckle up to drive 50'. To each his own...
I guess you have to look around and see just how many experienced AT hikers are carrying Bear Canisters. How many do you think you will find.
You have to ask yourself if you are the only hiker to have a certain piece of gear on the AT then why don't everyone else have one. Especially if that piece of gear weights 2.5 pounds.
Panzer
River Runner
05-19-2008, 00:48
Try this setup and you'll keep on using it! ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/wellsjs/Misc/IMAGE_071.jpg
What??? With the heavy Nalgene??? :D
TIDE-HSV
05-19-2008, 01:00
I guess you have to look around and see just how many experienced AT hikers are carrying Bear Canisters. How many do you think you will find.Are you talking to me? I've never carried a canister and never will. Und hast Du eine ungewöhnliche Verbindung mit Panzer? Bist Du Deutscher, oder Wehrmacht Lieber?
I guess you have to look around and see just how many experienced AT hikers are carrying Bear Canisters. How many do you think you will find.
You have to ask yourself if you are the only hiker to have a certain piece of gear on the AT then why don't everyone else have one. Especially if that piece of gear weights 2.5 pounds.
PanzerI'm not a "masses follower!" What you are really saying is "because I don't carry one or see the value in carrying one, you shouldn't either!" Next rainy morning I encounter, I'll try not to think of you, going to retrieve your hung food and getting soaked in the process . . . what a way to wake up! :eek: :p
What??? With the heavy Nalgene??? :DYeah, just call me over-burdened . . . with a 30-lb base weight pack! I really don't care to get that down to 20 lbs at all, at the expense of things I deem functional and important to me! :) :p
sofaking
05-19-2008, 06:56
am i supposed to get some of those ugly ass croc shoes because i see so many other people with them on the trail?
NICKTHEGREEK
05-19-2008, 07:05
I always hang my food as much from mice, the many crawling animals of Fl and oh yeah bears. I have had a few bears around camps- I nor my mates got hurt- the bears did not get the food.
Ask Dick Tracy about being in a shelter and seeing at 3 am a hiker with food get dragged out of the shelter and about thirty yards!!!! before the bear gave up and left. Do you think he hangs his food now? DT says he tried to tell the guy earlier and was ridiculed. It really made DT upset that his kids and wife were in that shelter that night too, but thoughtfully the bear went to the food source instead of just grabbing a child.
DT should never have spent the night in a shelter with his wife and kids in the first place
Are you talking to me? I've never carried a canister and never will.I guess you won't ever hike in such beautiful places as Denali Nat'l Park in Alaska, Banff, Jasper, Yoho Nat'l Parks in Cananda, where you cannot obtain a backcountry permit without one! And if you go there and rent one, you'll have paid about half the price of one. ;)
TIDE-HSV
05-19-2008, 08:14
No, I won't. For physical reasons, high altitudes are in my rear-view mirror...
I'm not a "masses follower!" What you are really saying is "because I don't carry one or see the value in carrying one, you shouldn't either!" Next rainy morning I encounter, I'll try not to think of you, going to retrieve your hung food and getting soaked in the process . . . what a way to wake up! :eek: :p
No, I'm not saying "because I don't carry one" I'm saying because "no one carries one" on the AT. And again if your the only one carrying a bear cannister on the AT, why are you the only one who sees the need.
Panzer.
sofaking
05-19-2008, 08:44
No, I'm not saying "because I don't carry one" I'm saying because "no one carries one" on the AT. And again if your the only one carrying a bear cannister on the AT, why are you the only one who sees the need.
Panzer.
what did people say about the first guy to hammock on the a.t.?
4eyedbuzzard
05-19-2008, 10:22
Is there any data regarding bear attacks on/near the AT and how food, bear bagging or lack of, may or may not have been involved in attacks?
According to several sources I can find http://www.southeasternoutdoors.com/wildlife/mammals/black-bear-attacks-fatal.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_dec ade there have only been two fatal black bear attacks in the southern Appalachians recorded - both since 2000: Glenda Bradley in 2000 in GSMNP and Elora Petrasek in 2006 in Cherokee NF - Petrasek, age 6, was killed and partially consumed after her mother saved her younger brother(both injured by the bear) from the initial attack. Both attacks happened in daylight hours and human food was not listed as a cause, predation was. Rabies and other illnesses were ruled out as causes after the bears in both attacks were captured, destroyed, and autopsied. Both attacks occured in spring when natural food sources for bears are not as plentiful as they are later in the year. The bear that killed Bradley was a sow(with cub) that only weighed 112 lbs(perhaps emaciated and hungry?). The one that killed Petrasek weighed about 300 lbs. My take: Don't let size fool you - bears are wild animals and the top predator in the woods.
If one is concerned that hanging a bear bag isn't enough, and that a SIBBG approvedbear canister (http://www.sierrawildbear.gov/foodstorage/approvedcontainers.htm) is absolutely required to secure food in order to protect themselves (and ultimately other people and the bear), I sure as heck couldn't justify carrying it without also carrying bear spray given that actual recorded fatal attacks have been in broad daylight without food as a primary cause.
Given the historical data available, it would seem to me that a minmum 8 oz net canister of bear spray would be a preferred defensive measure against a bear attack (the biggest reason* we bear bag or use bear boxes when available in the first place). And FWIW, bear spray is reportedly much more effective than firearms in stopping a bear attack according to http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear%20spray.pdf (Even as a gun toting nut I'd much rather have a fogging repellent spray as a first measure in a charging bear encounter than a handgun)
* yes we also want to prevent the bears from developing a taste for human food and prevent possible future scavenging and attacks, but that is secondary to our own immediate safety
Bare Bear
05-19-2008, 10:28
I would disagree that food was not a causal factor in nearly any bear attacks. They do not happen out in the deep woods but around camps where food attracts bears. Once the bear gets used to getting food near camps then you have problems.
It should be noted that neither of those fatal attacks were against AT hikers. AT hikers tend to know how to handle themselves better that the average person just out for a day hike.
Panzer
Bear Cables
05-19-2008, 10:32
Yeah, just call me over-burdened . . . with a 30-lb base weight pack! I really don't care to get that down to 20 lbs at all, at the expense of things I deem functional and important to me! :) :p
I think that is the bottom line...we take what makes us happy hikers. I will carry my bear cansiter and smile the whole way. It relieves a certain amount of stressing on my part . I have pared my pack weight to 25 lbs 11 oz including the canister and food and water. My friend actually packs afolding chair. It makes her a happy hiker.;)
Bear Cables
05-19-2008, 10:33
am i supposed to get some of those ugly ass croc shoes because i see so many other people with them on the trail?
only if you want to make a fashion statement;)
Bear Cables
05-19-2008, 10:42
Is there any data regarding bear attacks on/near the AT and how food, bear bagging or lack of, may or may not have been involved in attacks?
If one is concerned that hanging a bear bag isn't enough, and that a SIBBG approvedbear canister (http://www.sierrawildbear.gov/foodstorage/approvedcontainers.htm) is absolutely required to secure food in order to protect themselves (and ultimately other people and the bear), I sure as heck couldn't justify carrying it without also carrying bear spray given that actual recorded fatal attacks have been in broad daylight without food as a primary cause.
I agree that on the AT hanging a bag is sufficient.I've done it everytime before. I just don't want to deal with that whole "find the right branch, its getting dark and I'm tired thing". So for me its about whats easy.
4eyedbuzzard
05-19-2008, 10:56
It should be noted that neither of those fatal attacks were against AT hikers. AT hikers tend to know how to handle themselves better that the average person just out for a day hike.
Panzer
Not to be too argumentative, but I really don't believe that the vast majority of even experienced hikers have any better chance in a violent or predation bear attack than would a day hiker whose read and heeded the same warnings/info would.
1) And the biggest reason - I don't think bears differentiate between "AT hikers" and "non-AT hikers".
2) Most AT hikers are out for day hikes, or one or two nights at most. Several million use the trail each year according to ATC, and if they were all on long hikes the woods would be truly overrun with people - and they're not. The vast majority on the AT are once in a while hikers out for a day or weekend hike.
3) I doubt that most thru-hikers and section hikers have any real world experience with bears in aggressive encounters other than what they've read - just like less experienced day hikers. We bear bag because we've been told to do it by those with more experience, it makes common sense, and perhaps some have witnessed the aftermath of a bear ripping into a food bag or campsite.
Seriously, a bear that is going to attack a human just doesn't care if you're on the AT or on a blue-blaze from a parking lot to a waterfall, a newbie hiker or WF or WD or anybody else.
4eyedbuzzard
05-19-2008, 11:28
I agree that on the AT hanging a bag is sufficient.I've done it everytime before. I just don't want to deal with that whole "find the right branch, its getting dark and I'm tired thing". So for me its about whats easy.
I do agree with what you're saying from a convenience standpoint - the canister is obviously much easier. It obviously secures your food from being eaten as well, which in some cases may well be a safety/survival concern, though rarely on the AT. Like most things, convenience = weight, and 2 1/2 lbs is substantial, even for a non-UL fan.
My big point (which I know you understand) is that I don't think it attracts bears any less than bagging. The bears still know the food is there. I really think the more important element regarding bear safety is the distance you cache your food away from where you camp, even with a canister. The whole point is to avoid attracting them into the campsite while you're sleeping and have an encounter where you have to react while not alert - the security of the food itself is a way distant second. But given a bear's sense of smell, I still think they must be able to smell the food on our packs and clothing no matter how careful we are when cooking and eating and hiking along. Let's face it, they know we are there, hiking, cooking, camping, etc in their territory. They smell us from miles off.
That there aren't more attacks pretty much proves that most all bears don't view humans as desirable prey. For the most part they run off when they know we're around.
Bear Cables
05-19-2008, 11:41
I do agree with what you're saying from a convenience standpoint - the canister is obviously much easier. It obviously secures your food from being eaten as well, which in some cases may well be a safety/survival concern, though rarely on the AT. Like most things, convenience = weight, and 2 1/2 lbs is substantial, even for a non-UL fan.
My big point (which I know you understand) is that I don't think it attracts bears any less than bagging. The bears still know the food is there. I really think the more important element regarding bear safety is the distance you cache your food away from where you camp, even with a canister. The whole point is to avoid attracting them into the campsite while you're sleeping and have an encounter where you have to react while not alert - the security of the food itself is a way distant second. But given a bear's sense of smell, I still think they must be able to smell the food on our packs and clothing no matter how careful we are when cooking and eating and hiking along. Let's face it, they know we are there, hiking, cooking, camping, etc in their territory. They smell us from miles off.
That there aren't more attacks pretty much proves that most all bears don't view humans as desirable prey. For the most part they run off when they know we're around.
Oh, I totally agree with you. When I do the convience = weight thing , for this item i'll go with the convience. I know it is not anymore a deterrent than a hanging bag. Just easier. And I will store it the same distance as I would hang the bag.
is 2 1/2 pounds the lightest canister around. I usually set up camp late, and hike from sun up to sun down. i think a canister is right up my alley. please tell me there is a lighter one.
1) And the biggest reason - I don't think bears differentiate between "AT hikers" and "non-AT hikers".
Yes, of course your right, but bears can differentiate between the strong and the week, the old and the young, and the sick and the healthy. Because that's what all predators can do.
In the one case cited above a 9 year old child was attacked and if I recall in one of the other attacks it was an elderly woman who was killed.
AT thru hikers tend not to fall into either of these categories. AT thru hikers tend to be strong, physically fit and independent people who don't look a lot like prey items.
Panzer
Bear Cables
05-19-2008, 12:22
is 2 1/2 pounds the lightest canister around. I usually set up camp late, and hike from sun up to sun down. i think a canister is right up my alley. please tell me there is a lighter one.
I check out four, REI had 2 , Wildthings had the Bearikade and Campmor had the Garcia all were around the 2lb something oz wt. I thought the Garcia was the lightest for the best price.
take-a-knee
05-19-2008, 12:49
am i supposed to get some of those ugly ass croc shoes because i see so many other people with them on the trail?
YES, I'm sure they would be most flattering on you!
am i supposed to get some of those ugly ass croc shoes because i see so many other people with them on the trail?
I don't like them precisely because they are so ugly. I wear Teva's, which are a little heavier but much more fashionable and attach to the foot more securely. And I am a fashion conscious hiker.
Panzer
Berserker
05-19-2008, 13:21
I check out four, REI had 2 , Wildthings had the Bearikade and Campmor had the Garcia all were around the 2lb something oz wt. I thought the Garcia was the lightest for the best price.
The Bearikade Weekender is considerably lighter. I know you mention price being a factor though. However, if you are going to carry it regularly then the Berikade might be a good investment. I have one that I bought for use in the Sierras. I really like it. I have carried it around here (primarily to learn how to use it before going to the Sierras), and the convenience of a bear can in general is nice.
Bear cans aside, I would recommend trying to hang your food using the PCT method just to see if you like it. Some folks complain about it cause it's "hard", but once you get the hang of it it's actually pretty easy. Plus, using that method I don't see anything chewing the cord as it's not tied off to anything.
My Bearikade weighs right at 2 lbs 1 oz, my bear bag with cord and small carabiner weighs less than 7 oz.
4eyedbuzzard
05-19-2008, 13:28
...In the one case cited above a 9 year old child was attacked and if I recall in one of the other attacks it was an elderly woman who was killed...
In the most recent 2006 incident, the bear first attacked the victim's two year old sibling, then mauled the child's mother as she fought the bear off with lots of other people helping to drive the bear away with sticks and rocks - the bear finally stopped but then attacked and killed the 6 year old who had run from the scene of the attack.
The so called "elderly" victim in the 2000 attack was an ancient 50 year old schoolteacher, and the bear continued to eat her for hours while people tried to scare it off the dead woman. You may consider 50 "elderly", but I doubt this bear would have cared if the victim was 18 or 80, nor would it have made any difference - it was going to kill her anyway.
A quick look at this data pretty much rules out any relationship between age or gender of the victims of bear attacks. In fact, most victims are younger adults (which makes sense as they tend to represent the outback population more) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_dec ade
...bears can differentiate between the strong and the week, the old and the young, and the sick and the healthy. Because that's what all predators can do. ...AT thru hikers tend to be strong, physically fit and independent people who don't look a lot like prey items...
Sorry, but the notion that AT hikers are less likely victims due to any physical conditioning is just plain silly. The only advantage AT thru-hikers may have is in knowing and practicing avoidance techniques better. All humans are potential prey for a bear. AT thru-hikers, while in great cardiovascular condition, are no larger on average(only generally thinner)than any other segment of the population, and any relative strength difference would be in hiking strength not defensive combat strength. While physical size may be a deterrent (note that most advice is to extend and wave arms and appear as large as possible), I doubt any bears would find any AT hiker or any human to be a tough fight - including even Chuck Norris :eek: :rolleyes:. Yeah, you may get lucky and land a punch on its snout and make it think twice and back down - but if a bear is committed to killing you - you're likely simply dead. Pound for pound humans are simply incredibly weak and slow when compared to wild animals - and very easy prey all things considered.
Along these lines...
Last week when we were hiking from Springer to Fontana we hung our food 2 times - other times we didn't.
The times we didn't the wind was howling and blowing so hard that I figured this would at least make it more difficult for an animal to figure out where the smell originated from.
In the most recent 2006 incident, the bear first attacked the victim's two year old sibling, then mauled the child's mother as she fought the bear off with lots of other people helping to drive the bear away with sticks and rocks - the bear finally stopped but then attacked and killed the 6 year old who had run from the scene of the attack.
The so called "elderly" victim in the 2000 attack was an ancient 50 year old schoolteacher, and the bear continued to eat her for hours while people tried to scare it off the dead woman. You may consider 50 "elderly", but I doubt this bear would have cared if the victim was 18 or 80, nor would it have made any difference - it was going to kill her anyway.
A quick look at this data pretty much rules out any relationship between age or gender of the victims of bear attacks. In fact, most victims are younger adults (which makes sense as they tend to represent the outback population more) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_dec ade
Well if it's not age-related, then they MUST have forgotten to hang their foodbags...
Sorry, but the notion that AT hikers are less likely victims due to any physical conditioning is just plain silly.
Just look at the stats. Of all people attacked by bears on the trail corridor, how many have been thru-hikers. none that I know of.
Panzer
Bear Cables
05-19-2008, 14:38
Along these lines...
Last week when we were hiking from Springer to Fontana we hung our food 2 times - other times we didn't.
The times we didn't the wind was howling and blowing so hard that I figured this would at least make it more difficult for an animal to figure out where the smell originated from.
Risky business don't you think?
Bear Cables
05-19-2008, 14:42
The Bearikade Weekender is considerably lighter. I know you mention price being a factor though. However, if you are going to carry it regularly then the Berikade might be a good investment. I have one that I bought for use in the Sierras. I really like it. I have carried it around here (primarily to learn how to use it before going to the Sierras), and the convenience of a bear can in general is nice.
Bear cans aside, I would recommend trying to hang your food using the PCT method just to see if you like it. Some folks complain about it cause it's "hard", but once you get the hang of it it's actually pretty easy. Plus, using that method I don't see anything chewing the cord as it's not tied off to anything.
My Bearikade weighs right at 2 lbs 1 oz, my bear bag with cord and small carabiner weighs less than 7 oz.
Would you describe or post a link for the PCT method?
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/bear_bag_hanging_technique.html
scoll down a bit and you'll see it
4eyedbuzzard
05-19-2008, 14:48
Just look at the stats. Of all people attacked by bears on the trail corridor, how many have been thru-hikers. none that I know of.
Panzer
Can't argue with that logic. You must be right. Bears obviously are able to discern between fit and tough thru-hikers and lesser humans walking and camping on the same parts of the trails. :rolleyes:
ROFLMAO
it's probably the smell. there are some things even a bear won't eat i guess.
Bear Cables
05-19-2008, 15:02
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/bear_bag_hanging_technique.html
scoll down a bit and you'll see it
Thanks for the link. It sounds like you still need to find that right sized branch and the right height. And still need accurate throwing skills. I don't see anything about this method that keeps the rock sack and rope from wrapping around the branch.:-?
I carry a BearVault - it's also the chair!
Thanks for the link. It sounds like you still need to find that right sized branch and the right height. And still need accurate throwing skills. I don't see anything about this method that keeps the rock sack and rope from wrapping around the branch.:-?
you gotta give the rope enough slack so that the rock falls far enough down that it doesn't swing back around the branch. mostly easier said than done. but practice makes perfect, i reckon. i personally don't use this method as it seems like over kill. i mean really. who needs the extra weight the carbiner puts in your pack? if you REALLY feel like you need to hang your food, do the rockbag thing and throw it over a branch. once you've done this, change out the rockbag for your foodbag and take the other end of the rope and pull on it until the food bag goes up in the air and then tie it off on another tree. if the bear can figure out to go to the other tree and untie the rope, let him have the food. he obviously needs it more than you do.
No, I'm not saying "because I don't carry one" I'm saying because "no one carries one" on the AT. And again if your the only one carrying a bear cannister on the AT, why are you the only one who sees the need.
Panzer.I wouldn't argue "need" at all. Let's call it "choice." There are many options and choices with nearly all of the backpacking gear we carry, and nearly all of it is optional when it comes down to it. You can go without a tent (or not much of one). You can go without a sleeping bag (quilt/sheet/blanket). You can go without a stove (cold food). You can go without boots-hiking shoes and just use tennis shoes. You can even go without a pack and just tie your cold food, blanket, and sheet of plastic up in a bag and carry it! :eek:
Here is why I choose to carry a 2 1/2 lb bear canister:
Hanging bag/rope (6-10 oz option)
Time to secure food: find suitable tree/hang - 3-15+ min.
Concern of food getting vandalized - high
Concern for wet food / bag - moderate
Concern for crushing of food in pack (while handling/packing) - high
Hang food in rain - If not wet already, you will be!
Retrieve food in rain - no fun at all
Damage to food container (birds, skunks, mice, bear, etc) - high for all
Other uses of food container while in use for food storage - none
Overall worry about food safety and hassle of hanging - high
Bear canister (2 lb 9 oz)
Time to secure food: 3 sec (close lid)
Concern of food getting vandalized - nil to low
Concern for wet food / bag - None
Concern for crushing of food in pack (while handling/packing) - None
Hang food in rain - no need, roll the vault away from the tent, staying dry!
Retrieve food in rain - may get slightly wet - distance from tent dependent
Damage to food container (birds, etc) - None (bear - low)
Other uses of food container while in use for food storage - Table/seat
Overall worry about food safety and hassle of hanging - None and N/A!
In my subjective opinion, the pros vs. cons warrant the extra weight. If they don't to you, then that's your choice.
i promise i'm not trying to be a smart aleck even though it's probably going to sound that way, but i'm really just curious:
do you HONESTLY carry a 2ob 9oz cannister with you when you hike? everyone has their own choices to make and i'm not knocking yours, i'm just wondering how you came to your decision to do so. i mean, crushed food is my last worry on a long distance hike, so are mice. i get the bear thing, but it seems like 2.5 lbs is a high price to pay.
As I listed out, time spent hanging, worrying about my food over-shadows the added weight. About the same time I switched to a bear vault, I updated a lot of gear, significantly reducing the weight I was carrying. So to me, I'm carrying less weight than ever and have eliminated all hassle/worries regarding food! ;)
OK, so I could get from 30 lbs basic pack weight to 28 . . . no big deal to me.
take-a-knee
05-19-2008, 16:28
you gotta give the rope enough slack so that the rock falls far enough down that it doesn't swing back around the branch. mostly easier said than done. but practice makes perfect, i reckon. i personally don't use this method as it seems like over kill. i mean really. who needs the extra weight the carbiner puts in your pack? if you REALLY feel like you need to hang your food, do the rockbag thing and throw it over a branch. once you've done this, change out the rockbag for your foodbag and take the other end of the rope and pull on it until the food bag goes up in the air and then tie it off on another tree. if the bear can figure out to go to the other tree and untie the rope, let him have the food. he obviously needs it more than you do.
Very poor advice, there are keychain carabiners that weigh less than an ounce. The PCT method was developed because your suggested method has failed repeatedly. Once a bear tastes human food, his chances of dying from a gunshot wound increase markedly. If a one-ounce carabiner "overloads" you, you seriously need a better fitness program.
I reccomend the following:
www.crossfit.com (http://www.crossfit.com)
Very poor advice, there are keychain carabiners that weigh less than an ounce. The PCT method was developed because your suggested method has failed repeatedly. Once a bear tastes human food, his chances of dying from a gunshot wound increase markedly. If a one-ounce carabiner "overloads" you, you seriously need a better fitness program.
I reccomend the following:
www.crossfit.com (http://www.crossfit.com)
umm, i was being a smarta**, so find someone else to pawn your advice off on. oh, and i recommend trying not to take everything so seriously.
you gotta give the rope enough slack so that the rock falls far enough down that it doesn't swing back around the branch. mostly easier said than done. but practice makes perfect, i reckon. i personally don't use this method as it seems like over kill. i mean really. who needs the extra weight the carbiner puts in your pack? if you REALLY feel like you need to hang your food, do the rockbag thing and throw it over a branch. once you've done this, change out the rockbag for your foodbag and take the other end of the rope and pull on it until the food bag goes up in the air and then tie it off on another tree.Finding a good tree is not always easy, nor always as close to camp as you'd like. Add to it the hassle of rock/rope tossing, etc. is precisely why I use a bear vault now-a-days. I did the above for 34 years. I'm retired from that now! :)
ahh, see you left out the less weight than ever part the first time!:-?
i also like the campchair part of it, but did you have an encounter with a bear that led you to this choice or is it just preventative?
Berserker
05-19-2008, 17:04
you gotta give the rope enough slack so that the rock falls far enough down that it doesn't swing back around the branch. mostly easier said than done. but practice makes perfect, i reckon. i personally don't use this method as it seems like over kill. i mean really. who needs the extra weight the carbiner puts in your pack? if you REALLY feel like you need to hang your food, do the rockbag thing and throw it over a branch. once you've done this, change out the rockbag for your foodbag and take the other end of the rope and pull on it until the food bag goes up in the air and then tie it off on another tree. if the bear can figure out to go to the other tree and untie the rope, let him have the food. he obviously needs it more than you do.
In general I agree with you. It’s that one in a million incident that changes your mind, and I had that happen. I did the hang my food bag over a branch and tie the other end of the cord off to a tree thing, and actually had a raccoon chew through the cord where it was tied to the tree trunk. Those are some stinking smart little buggers. They were harassing us most of the evening though, and probably “watched” as I was hanging my food.
That was all it took to interest me in the PCT method. Like I said, it’s not for everyone. I don’t mind it cause it gives me something to do when I am cooking or hanging out in camp (I typically try to make camp with a couple of hours of light left). I can usually throw the rock over the tree limb in a couple of tries so it is not a big deal, but occasionally I have one of those 20 try nights. All I can say is that once I have the food hanging in the tree using that method the only worry I have about my food is the tree falling down (i.e. I don’t worry about the food).
Thanks for posting the link to the PCT method by the way.
ahh, see you left out the less weight than ever part the first time!:-?
i also like the campchair part of it, but did you have an encounter with a bear that led you to this choice or is it just preventative?Only bear encounter I had was a brown in Yosemite who cleaned me out. Went up the tree and broke the limb on a perfectly hung bag of food. Took a considerable fall, but obviously considered it worth it! :eek:
I didn't really have "bear" in mind when deciding to go with a vault. It was more about the other nuisance critters and the hassle/worry of hanging food. How do you measure the price (in weight) of eliminating worry? It's awesome to have absolutely no cares/concerns about your food during a hike (other than what shall I eat next!) :)
Oh, Lord! Now see, I would definitely go for the container out west with the browns, but I've never had a problem in the Apps and I've been hiking since I was 7. Honestly, I think the only time I've even hung my food was in Girl Scouts or in the Smokies. I know, there's a first time for everything.
4eyedbuzzard
05-19-2008, 17:25
Only bear encounter I had was a brown in Yosemite who cleaned me out. Went up the tree and broke the limb on a perfectly hung bag of food. Took a considerable fall, but obviously considered it worth it! :eek:
I didn't really have "bear" in mind when deciding to go with a vault. It was more about the other nuisance critters and the hassle/worry of hanging food. How do you measure the price (in weight) of eliminating worry? It's awesome to have absolutely no cares/concerns about your food during a hike (other than what shall I eat next!) :)
I think I'd still be concerned about where I cooked and where I cached the canister for the night. Can't say I'd want a curious hungry bear playing hacky sack with the darn thing right outside a tent or shelter all night.
rock, rope, pct method, or what ever. if you really want to keep the bears out of your food just hike with a big angry pit bull. works for me.
4eyedbuzzard
05-19-2008, 17:43
This thread already went to the dogs. ;)
TIDE-HSV
05-19-2008, 19:03
I still think they must be able to smell the food on our packs and clothing no matter how careful we are when cooking and eating and hiking along.
After association, even the smell doesn't matter. They will go for objects that they've associated with food in the past. When the bear took my wife's pack in the Smokey's, we had the packs outside, unzipped (no mouse chew-through) but covered. The bear recognized them anyway. It made a play for mine earlier in the night, but I woke up and chased it off. When it picked up my wife's pack, the Ziplok which had her drinking tube for her water bottle in it. This bag had never been used for food. It was in an outside pocket. It fell out, and the bear picked it up and bit it several times. Ziplok=food. BTW, this incident was when I first decided that 10' was not enough. I'd hung our food at about that height (I used to hang and finish sheetrock, so I know heights), and what waked me up the next AM was a "bong-bong" sound. When I looked outside, the bear was jumping for our food/garbage bag and barely could reach the empty French canteens hanging low and was playing drummer with them. Although this was the biggest black bear I've ever seen, I made a mental note of "twelve feet" from now on, even though they can't jump more than 6" or so. I ran him off, but he'd taken the pack too far off to find it, although I wasted an hour looking. Now, I agree that this thread has gone to the dogs. I'm discussing bear behavior with people who have no knowledge at all beyond what they've read somewhere. I'd promised myself not to look at it again, and I broke the promise. This time, I'll not do it again...
After association, even the smell doesn't matter. They will go for objects that they've associated with food in the past. When the bear took my wife's pack in the Smokey's, we had the packs outside, unzipped (no mouse chew-through) but covered. The bear recognized them anyway. It made a play for mine earlier in the night, but I woke up and chased it off. When it picked up my wife's pack, the Ziplok which had her drinking tube for her water bottle in it. This bag had never been used for food. It was in an outside pocket. It fell out, and the bear picked it up and bit it several times. Ziplok=food. BTW, this incident was when I first decided that 10' was not enough. I'd hung our food at about that height (I used to hang and finish sheetrock, so I know heights), and what waked me up the next AM was a "bong-bong" sound. When I looked outside, the bear was jumping for our food/garbage bag and barely could reach the empty French canteens hanging low and was playing drummer with them. Although this was the biggest black bear I've ever seen, I made a mental note of "twelve feet" from now on, even though they can't jump more than 6" or so. I ran him off, but he'd taken the pack too far off to find it, although I wasted an hour looking. Now, I agree that this thread has gone to the dogs. I'm discussing bear behavior with people who have no knowledge at all beyond what they've read somewhere. I'd promised myself not to look at it again, and I broke the promise. This time, I'll not do it again...
Personally, I'm not one of those people who feel that they "know it all". Each persons experience can be a tidbit of knowlege that is filed away for future reference. It can be argued that the best teacher is first hand experience, though I find that learning from the experience of others can avoid a lot of unnecessary 'bad happenings'. Thanks TIDE-HSV for posting YOUR experiences.
sofaking
05-19-2008, 19:28
i've found that bear bagging my food IN my tent, spritzing a little capsacin on the pits and pubes and peeing all over the tent will keep bears away.
A quick look at this data pretty much rules out any relationship between age or gender of the victims of bear attacks. In fact, most victims are younger adults (which makes sense as they tend to represent the outback population more) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rica_by_decade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_dec ade)Well, after reading this article maybe I will have to concede that its not just the old and weak that are mostly attacked. The victims do seem to be people of every age group and even a fair number of "young physically fit adults", so maybe I'll have to back off on that one.
But still, that bear container isn't going to save your butt if a bear wants you. For the weight I think you would be better off with a gun than a bear container.
Panzer
Now, I agree that this thread has gone to the dogs. I'm discussing bear behavior with people who have no knowledge at all beyond what they've read somewhere. I'd promised myself not to look at it again, and I broke the promise. This time, I'll not do it again...
I don't know, sounds maybe just a little bit condescending.:rolleyes:
Panzer
Appalachian Tater
05-19-2008, 22:02
i've found that bear bagging my food IN my tent, spritzing a little capsacin on the pits and pubes and peeing all over the tent will keep bears away.No wonder bears keep attacking me. I've had it backwards and have been peeing all over my pits and pubes and spritzing capsaicin on my tent!
Appalachian Tater
05-19-2008, 22:04
Yes, of course your right, but bears can differentiate between the strong and the week, the old and the young, and the sick and the healthy. Because that's what all predators can do.
In the one case cited above a 9 year old child was attacked and if I recall in one of the other attacks it was an elderly woman who was killed.
AT thru hikers tend not to fall into either of these categories. AT thru hikers tend to be strong, physically fit and independent people who don't look a lot like prey items.
PanzerI read somewhere that hikers move like a wounded deer as far as a bear is concerned. I don't know how the person who wrote it knows what bears think, but it made sense at the time.
sofaking
05-19-2008, 22:17
No wonder bears keep attacking me. I've had it backwards and have been peeing all over my pits and pubes and spritzing capsaicin on my tent!
it's a learning curve thing, just like everything else...you gotta be careful about that capsacin on your tent though, you might forget it's on there and touch your eye after packing in the morning...
Bear Cables
05-20-2008, 10:39
i promise i'm not trying to be a smart aleck even though it's probably going to sound that way, but i'm really just curious:
do you HONESTLY carry a 2ob 9oz cannister with you when you hike? everyone has their own choices to make and i'm not knocking yours, i'm just wondering how you came to your decision to do so. i mean, crushed food is my last worry on a long distance hike, so are mice. i get the bear thing, but it seems like 2.5 lbs is a high price to pay.
I have made the decision to carry a 2lb 5 oz bear canister because I know we will be hiking long days on this trek and I get anxious about finding the right branch, throwing at all that when it's getting dark. It eases my worries to know I just need to store and place the can away from camp. Sort of like - Bear Canister - 2 lbs 5 oz Peace of mind -priceless!
I have also pared down my total pack weight including food and water to 26 lbs. Gave up some items I usually pack like a crazy creek chair and a self inflating pad( I using a Z Rest cut in half for both sitting and sleeping at 8 oz) and purchased a 1 lb 5 oz bag and a 1lb 5 oz Contrail tent tarp. So I'm really not packing anymore and definitely less weight than previous hikes.
sofaking
05-20-2008, 10:44
if anybody wants to give you grief about your bear can out on the trail you can throw it at them and 'bonk' them in the head with it. hmm, you could do that to bears as well...bear bowling, kind of like aversion therapy for the bear.
Bear Cables
05-20-2008, 10:45
I think I'd still be concerned about where I cooked and where I cached the canister for the night. Can't say I'd want a curious hungry bear playing hacky sack with the darn thing right outside a tent or shelter all night.
My plan it to place the canister the same distance from camp as I would hang a rope. That way I won't know the bear is playing hack sack unless I see the canister moved in the AM;)
4eyedbuzzard
05-20-2008, 10:46
'zactly;)
I put it under my hammock so the bear gets confused about whether to hackysack or pinata and just goes away.
turtle fast
05-20-2008, 11:57
I am on the trail right now and that debate is going on in and around Hot Springs. A problem bear has been getting food bags hung in Walnut Mtn Shelter. We had run into a guy who the bear brazenly came up slashed the bag open and feasted, then proceded to trash the rest of his stuff just to boot....I don't think having it in a tent would of resulted any differently but with the addition of a ruined tent.....use the bear cables...what is a few minutes to save your stuff potentially.
My plan it to place the canister the same distance from camp as I would hang a rope. That way I won't know the bear is playing hack sack unless I see the canister moved in the AM;)I have thought about WHAT IF a bear swatted the vault around 'til it was clean out of sight. Would hate to have to spend possibly hours looking for it. Guess I'll cross that bridge if I ever come to it! :eek:
4eyedbuzzard
05-20-2008, 14:04
I have thought about WHAT IF a bear swatted the vault around 'til it was clean out of sight. Would hate to have to spend possibly hours looking for it. Guess I'll cross that bridge if I ever come to it! :eek:
I don't have one, but I think there is a provision on them for attaching to a lightweight cable or rope of some kind to tether it to a tree or rock. I've heard of them being tied off and hung over rock leges, etc. out west. Also read though that a rope just gives the bear a handle for carrying it off. :-?
Sounds like a good market for another piece of overpriced Titanium gear - UL bearproof Titanium cable.:D
I don't have one, but I think there is a provision on them for attaching to a lightweight cable or rope of some kind to tether it to a tree or rock. I've heard of them being tied off and hung over rock leges, etc. out west. Also read though that a rope just gives the bear a handle for carrying it off. :-?
Sounds like a good market for another piece of overpriced Titanium gear - UL bearproof Titanium cable.:DWhen available, I usually wedge mine between rocks, trees, or sturdy bushes, but then I've never had it messed with in the least. There is nothing to attach to on it . . . intentionally, so the bear cannot get hold of it in any way. I agree. Making a harness to tie it off would just give the bear a carrying handle that it doesn't have, left as is.
CherrypieScout
05-20-2008, 18:28
I am going to be section hiking through the Shendoah's this summer. I only hang bear bags when I feel it is necessary. Intution thing. I've never had any problems. What is a bear pole and how does it work? I've used the cables in the Smokies.
sofaking
05-20-2008, 18:29
I am going to be section hiking through the Shendoah's this summer. I only hang bear bags when I feel it is necessary. Intution thing. I've never had any problems. What is a bear pole and how does it work? I've used the cables in the Smokies.
looks like a big metal coat tree, has an attached handle to raise your food bag up onto a hook.
jhomeresq
05-20-2008, 22:17
My wife and I just hiked Montebello to Harper's Ferry and had 4 bear sightings in SNP, including one where a bear came to our camp area three times in one night. We were stealth-camped just north of Swift Run Gap. He (or she?) never came near our tents, but he spent his time trying to get to our food hanging in a tree. He never got it, but he sure did try.
I would very strongly recommend hanging food in SNP, those damn bears are everywhere. This is especially important in SNP because they don't really have a problem with "bad" bears who have learned that humans=food like they do in SMNP. We need to keep it that way! The bear poles at the shelters are great.
The Whistler
who just sits by and watches a bear rip up their stuff? i spent a bunch of money for my hiking things, i think that i would try to do something about that.
4eyedbuzzard
05-21-2008, 01:26
What are you going to do to a bear? Unless you spray it, which may anger it and escalate a non-attack situation into an attack one, or shoot it, again probably failing to accomplish your goal and escalating the situation to having to deal with a wounded angry bear (and with all sorts of other consequences), about all you can do is wave your arms and make noise. A bear that will come near people in the first place isn't going to be easily intimidated. Unfortunately, campers and some hikers are pretty careless with food, and lots of park bears know people have food or at minimum are used to human presence.
Some nylon, down, and wool ain't worth your life.
sofaking
05-21-2008, 01:30
bear spray is very effective at deterring bears. imagine getting maced, but having a nose that's almost 100 times more sensitive- bears probably don't enjoy getting sprayed.
4eyedbuzzard
05-21-2008, 01:41
Oh, I'm sure it irritates the bear no end. And in an attack using spray to save your life it may give you time to retreat and get away from the bear. But what happens if you don't get a good spray at it - the wind shifts, the bear moves, etc. What happens if it comes back and is really pissed off? I think I'd be quickly clearing out of any location where I had a confrontation with a bear. and sprayed it.
Hey, honestly I really just don't know. I'm no bear expert. But my first thought is don't do anything to provoke a bear that isn't attacking you.
sofaking
05-21-2008, 01:45
yeah, i've never had to do more than nekkid wrassle 'em...and i don't carry spray anyway, just read how effective it is. i look forward to seeing bears when i'm on the trail. don't get to very often, but i enjoy it when i do.
Lone Wolf
05-21-2008, 02:55
I am on the trail right now and that debate is going on in and around Hot Springs. A problem bear has been getting food bags hung in Walnut Mtn Shelter. We had run into a guy who the bear brazenly came up slashed the bag open and feasted, then proceded to trash the rest of his stuff just to boot....I don't think having it in a tent would of resulted any differently but with the addition of a ruined tent.....use the bear cables...what is a few minutes to save your stuff potentially.
pretty dumb to stay at that shelter then
When available, I usually wedge mine between rocks, trees, or sturdy bushes, but then I've never had it messed with in the least. There is nothing to attach to on it . . . intentionally, so the bear cannot get hold of it in any way. I agree. Making a harness to tie it off would just give the bear a carrying handle that it doesn't have, left as is.
Iin Yosemite we had bears pick up and move around a couple of the bear canisters from our group. We generally put the canisters in a sort of flat spot, uphill of a fallen tree trunk. The couple of times bears moved canisters, they only carried them ten or 20 feet. When the bear discovered he/she couldn't open the canister, he/she dropped it.
The point with a bear canister is that the bears learn they can't open them, so they generally leave them alone. Instructions for using the canister point out you shouldn't leave them next to a river or near a cliff.
What are you going to do to a bear? Unless you spray it, which may anger it and escalate a non-attack situation into an attack one, or shoot it, again probably failing to accomplish your goal and escalating the situation to having to deal with a wounded angry bear (and with all sorts of other consequences), about all you can do is wave your arms and make noise. A bear that will come near people in the first place isn't going to be easily intimidated. Unfortunately, campers and some hikers are pretty careless with food, and lots of park bears know people have food or at minimum are used to human presence.
Some nylon, down, and wool ain't worth your life.
what ever it takes. holler, make noise, beat on cook set (oh wait, that would be in the bear bag if i hung bear bags, which i don't), big stick, hand full of rocks. or maybe a well placed 40cal shot. highly unlikely that a black bear would attack anyway. it's gonna run off long enough to get the pack back and do something better with it. when the bear comes back, have several ways to counter undesireable behavior. use your brain man. yours is much bigger than the bears. is it really that hard to figure out how to out wit a freakin bear? i have an image in my head of a bear killing a pack and some dumb azz watching and going oh my god a bear has my pack, oh what do i do? the answer, what ever it takes. think about it. in the winter, something happens to your pack, you have nothing, 15 miles away from anywhere. your gonna freeze. now you've got a life or death situation anyway. freezing temps with no gear will kill you for sure. i'll take my chances with the bear.
4eyedbuzzard
05-21-2008, 21:34
What am I going to do if a bear won't go away after I've tried all the suggested techniques of making noise etc, and it starts ripping up a food bag or gear?
1) Nothing to provoke it into turning its attack on my person.
2) A bear attack in winter, where damaging gear or stealing food would put my life in danger is extremely unlikely. Black bears hibernate for most of the winter.
3) I think I'd assess the situation. If I thought the bear was destroying gear that would leave me in a situation where I'd freeze to death I might attempt to get a clean broadside shot and kill it. My experience on most of the AT is that is very unlikely situation.
sofaking
05-21-2008, 21:38
nekkid wrasslin!
4eyedbuzzard
05-21-2008, 21:50
I ain't wrasslin' no nekkid bear!
sofaking
05-21-2008, 21:50
chicken.
sofaking
05-21-2008, 21:51
nekkid chicken wrasslin, makes the bear forget about the food and want to watch the fight...
4eyedbuzzard
05-21-2008, 22:05
I ain't wrasslin' no critters. Nekkid or other wise. Even if ya slap lipstick on 'em. Unless they're really purdy.
sofaking
05-21-2008, 22:11
nekkid judo.
Instructions for using the canister point out you shouldn't leave them next to a river or near a cliff.Imagine sitting on a rock by a nice stream, near the end of a long hike. You're kinda low on food and . . . suddenly you spot something odd floating toward you. What? It can't be. No way! It is! Thank you Jesus! It's a bear vault full of awesome food! :D
OK, I repented and hiked up stream with it to find the poor, hungry hiker it belonged to and returned it! :( (made up story)
I've been been backpacking for about 25 years and I have never had a bear encounter. Part of the reason is probably just luck. I would like to think the remainder is that I use a little thought while I am out there.
I have never used a bear canister in the eastern US. I do not eat, nor store food, in my tent. I am a firm believer that those who do are just the next bear attack waiting to happen. In the GSMNP and the Ozarks, the bear population is dense enough you can reasonably expect a bear to be nearby almost all the time. If I take my pack off for a break, I don't leave it. Also, if I get to a campsite or a shelter where people are being "sloppy" with food handling/storage practices, I usually just move on. Saying anything usually doesn't do any good. You think food doesn't get spilled/dropped in the shelters? Just watch the mice and the squirrels some time. When someone opens a pack, they all are like radar watching for crumbs.
When I hiked the Big Bend NP, the javalinas would have ripped a tent apart to get at food inside.
How many people have you seen rinse out a cookpot or a bowl and slosh the water out onto the ground? Where do you think all the left over food particles went?
IMHO, good food handling practices are not complex and don't require "eating a mile from camp".
However, I do believe a person needs to be congnizant of everything when out in the back country.
probably anywhere you camp on the AT someone else has already camped there and washed food pots out onto the ground right next to where you have your tent and left other crumbs laying all around.
Panzer
sofaking
05-22-2008, 09:29
I've been been backpacking for about 25 years and I have never had a bear encounter. Part of the reason is probably just luck. I would like to think the remainder is that I use very little hygiene and/or soap while I am out there. i tend to smell like a sack of sweaty bodily appendages.
that's just nasty.
Bear Cables
05-22-2008, 10:41
I've been been backpacking for about 25 years and I have never had a bear encounter. Part of the reason is probably just luck. I would like to think the remainder is that I use a little thought while I am out there.
I have never used a bear canister in the eastern US. I do not eat, nor store food, in my tent. I am a firm believer that those who do are just the next bear attack waiting to happen. In the GSMNP and the Ozarks, the bear population is dense enough you can reasonably expect a bear to be nearby almost all the time. If I take my pack off for a break, I don't leave it. Also, if I get to a campsite or a shelter where people are being "sloppy" with food handling/storage practices, I usually just move on. Saying anything usually doesn't do any good. You think food doesn't get spilled/dropped in the shelters? Just watch the mice and the squirrels some time. When someone opens a pack, they all are like radar watching for crumbs.
When I hiked the Big Bend NP, the javalinas would have ripped a tent apart to get at food inside.
How many people have you seen rinse out a cookpot or a bowl and slosh the water out onto the ground? Where do you think all the left over food particles went?
IMHO, good food handling practices are not complex and don't require "eating a mile from camp".
However, I do believe a person needs to be congnizant of everything when out in the back country.
I agree with you . In the 11 years I have been backpacking the only bear I have seen was down in the valley going the opposite direction. I am also very careful about food practices. We stayed at Wesser Shelter last summer and there was a troop of Scouts camping at the campsite. They came to the shelter to prepare their meals because it was drizzling. I got pretty asertive and said, "Hey guys, I have to sleep where you are planning to cook. Would you mind not cooking and eating the the shelter?" They agreed to only boil the water in the shelter and prepared the rest of the food away from it. I thought Scouts , having two Eagles myself , would have known better:rolleyes:
Bear Cables
05-22-2008, 10:45
probably anywhere you camp on the AT someone else has already camped there and washed food pots out onto the ground right next to where you have your tent and left other crumbs laying all around.
Panzer
All one can really do is be as safe as one can. I can only control my environment when I'm in it. Hopefully my practices make it safer for the next hiker who comes along.
sofaking
05-22-2008, 15:32
Nice edit, sofaking! you are truly one of the funniest, most entertaining posters on this site.
well shucks, thanks.
What am I going to do if a bear won't go away after I've tried all the suggested techniques of making noise etc, and it starts ripping up a food bag or gear?
1) Nothing to provoke it into turning its attack on my person.
2) A bear attack in winter, where damaging gear or stealing food would put my life in danger is extremely unlikely. Black bears hibernate for most of the winter.
3) I think I'd assess the situation. If I thought the bear was destroying gear that would leave me in a situation where I'd freeze to death I might attempt to get a clean broadside shot and kill it. My experience on most of the AT is that is very unlikely situation.
black bears don't hibernate down south. popular misconception though. their range decreases somewhat, but no hibernation. i know of one instance where a black bear charged a person (one). bear charged a child, father was in the military (marines i think). father killed said bear with a log. it can and has been done. this occured on the chattahoochee wildlife management area in georgia, so before you discount it, do some research. it happened. i guess i grew up a little different here in the sticks of north georgia. what is mine is mine, and no animal, human, alien, or anything else is gonna get what is mine without killing me first. that is just the way it is.
take-a-knee
05-22-2008, 19:02
Nice edit, sofaking!
Don't feed the critters, they'll bite eventually.:)
Don't feed the critters, they'll bite eventually.:)
I take it all in stride.
As to bears and hibernation, while they don't enter into a "true" hibernation in the South, they do enter into a pretty deep slumber. I have been in the park when they were pulling one out of a hollow tree for relo to BSF. It was pretty groggy.
darlin', if they were pulling it out of the tree, then they tranquilized it first. That's probably why it was groggy...
and general, why shoot the poor bear? that's just wasting good ammo. it would be so much more entertaining to watch your big pit bull tear it apart.