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Mango
05-10-2008, 10:10
For a couple of months, I've been leaving soft drinks, beer, ice, and clean water at Iron Mtn. Gap, between Unaka Mt and Roan Mt. Yesterday I drove up to restock and discovered that my cooler, the water jugs, and even the rope I used to keep stuff from blowing away have been taken. At least they took the trash, too.

If anyone here took the cooler to refill it, thanks, but please return it. This is just another example of one jerk ruining it for everybody else. I can't afford to buy new coolers and pay $8 per trip for gas, all for nothing.

Tipi Walter
05-10-2008, 10:15
Is this on Hiway 421 outside of Mountain City? Any chance it could have been a hiway crew or mowers? Anyway, sorry to hear it.

Mango
05-10-2008, 10:30
The highway is TN 107 between Unicoi, TN and Buladean, NC. This stuff was several hundred ft down the Trail, not visible from the road.

SGT Rock
05-10-2008, 10:32
Near that old dirt road where people dump stuff?

StarLyte
05-10-2008, 10:34
Were these items sitting directly on the A.T. or in view from the A.T.?

If so, it could have been removed by anyone who is not out there to destroy your generosity and kindness, but to keep the A.T. clear of debris and also to keep it a wilderness experience.

I don't think a hiker would remove those things.

Hope you find your things.

Tinker
05-10-2008, 10:54
Mango,
If a message was on the side of the cooler as to why it was there, I doubt anyone would have taken it.
Was it identified as the property of a "trail angel"?

emerald
05-10-2008, 11:02
I can't afford to buy new coolers and pay $8 per trip for gas, all for nothing.

An important lesson may yet be learned.:-?

4eyedbuzzard
05-10-2008, 11:08
I've read some posts and articles where food and beverages left as trail magic are often considered unwanted especially by maintainers, park personnel, etc, as they increase litter especially if not used and packed out.

Kind of a two sided situation.

ofthearth
05-10-2008, 11:42
Don't know where you are talking about on the trail but I would be willing to chip in for new gear. I know that is not the point but I may be that way some day and a cold drink would be nice (has to be coke - no pepsi).:rolleyes:

Feral Bill
05-10-2008, 12:21
I would think twice about leaving beer oout where ny underage fool who finds it could help himself.

Evil Eye
05-10-2008, 12:28
Mango,

I live too far from the trail to perform TM - but do know how greatly appreciated it is - especially after coming over Unaka & getting ready for Roan from my thru last year. Seems to me that most of those with issues with Trail Magic have never been a thruhiker! Never been out for weeks to really understand how appreciated it really is. And you are doing so very responsibily with trash bags, regularly checking, etc
If you choose to replace your TM setup -let me know - I'm good for the first $30 of what it takes you to do so.
Hope all is well with you. See ya @ Trail Days ??
Evil Eye

Lilred
05-10-2008, 13:58
Well, there's a whole debate about "trail magic". I have more often than not run across a cooler filled with empty cans. To me that is just a cooler full of garbage, hardly magic at all. I don't like coming around the bend and seeing a cooler in the woods. Ya, it's appreciated by many, and if I find a drink, (rarely happens), I'll appreciate it, but it's that first gut feeling I have when I see the cooler, I don't like it there.

I know people mean well, trying to help out hikers and all, but I've got food and water. Now, if there's a drought going on and hikers need water, that's one thing. I just don't get why sodas and snacks are left in the woods. Even an organized feed I understand, you get to meet a lot of interesting folks. I guess it's just me, I don't get leaving behind stuff in the woods.

dessertrat
05-10-2008, 14:23
Well, there's a whole debate about "trail magic". I have more often than not run across a cooler filled with empty cans. To me that is just a cooler full of garbage, hardly magic at all. I don't like coming around the bend and seeing a cooler in the woods. Ya, it's appreciated by many, and if I find a drink, (rarely happens), I'll appreciate it, but it's that first gut feeling I have when I see the cooler, I don't like it there.

I know people mean well, trying to help out hikers and all, but I've got food and water. Now, if there's a drought going on and hikers need water, that's one thing. I just don't get why sodas and snacks are left in the woods. Even an organized feed I understand, you get to meet a lot of interesting folks. I guess it's just me, I don't get leaving behind stuff in the woods.

I second this entirely.

Jack Tarlin
05-10-2008, 14:35
The prevailing view these days is that unattended stuff should probably be avoided, tho in drought periods, water jugs are always welcome.

If stuff is left unattended, then it should only be done by locals who'll be back to police up the spot later, remove trash, etc. And by "later" I mean later that day or the following day, and not a week later, as the empty cooler WILL become an unsightly trash bucket.

Leaving beer out where anyone can get at it is probably a lousy idea, and could potentially leave one liable for problems/damages if it were found and consumed by minors.

minnesotasmith
05-10-2008, 14:46
1) Agreed, don't leave beer out unattended, any more than you would some pot or tobacco.

2) Accept that there are people in this world who will unreasonably criticize others for doing something nice for 3rd parties without those 1st people's advance permission. It's usually called "dog-in-the-manger" syndrom. Some of them will even post on WB on this sort of thread. Feel free to ignore them as sad people who don't understand much of what makes the AT special, even unique.

3) Yeah, check the cooler for trash often, more so in warm weather & high-use seasons, less in cooler weather/lower-traffic times.

4) Place your TM out of sight of any roads, padlock and chain your cooler to a decent-sized tree, and I bet it will still be there when you get back.

bulldog49
05-10-2008, 14:51
Personally, I find "trail magic" unecessary and a detriment to the wilderness experience. I go into the woods to be self-sufficient and resupply points on the AT are seldom far away.

ki0eh
05-10-2008, 14:52
ATC & ALDHA policy: http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/Trail%20Magic%20Suggestions8-3-07.pdf

minnesotasmith
05-10-2008, 14:53
ATC & ALDHA policy: http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/Trail%20Magic%20Suggestions8-3-07.pdf

On more than one subject, the heads of those groups only speak for themselves.

sofaking
05-10-2008, 14:58
Personally, I find "trail magic" unecessary and a detriment to the wilderness experience. I go into the woods to be self-sufficient and resupply points on the AT are seldom far away.
the a.t. is not a wilderness experience...

ofthearth
05-10-2008, 14:59
1) Agreed, don't leave beer out unattended, any more than you would some pot or tobacco.

2) Accept that there are people in this world who will unreasonably criticize others for doing something nice for 3rd parties without those 1st people's advance permission. It's usually called "dog-in-the-manger" syndrom. Some of them will even post on WB on this sort of thread. Feel free to ignore them as sad people who don't understand much of what makes the AT special, even unique.

3) Yeah, check the cooler for trash often, more so in warm weather & high-use seasons, less in cooler weather/lower-traffic times.

4) Place your TM out of sight of any roads, padlock and chain your cooler to a decent-sized tree, and I bet it will still be there when you get back.


Thanks, oculd not have said better.

ofthearth
05-10-2008, 15:01
the a.t. is not a wilderness experience...

I was going to point that out. And ask if the person uses shelters, stays in town, does mail drops.

Funny how you hear about HYOY so long as .............................

mambo_tango
05-10-2008, 15:18
when i see trail magic (as long as there is something left) i think 'ooh ooh free calories!!' - one time someone had left hardboiled eggs, coffee and graham crackers - yum. it's nice because sometimes you have rough days and seeing an act of kindness can help you get through the day. oh and did i mention free calories?

rickb
05-10-2008, 15:21
The trails down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon might not be described as wilderness either, but the Park Service would frown on coolers left along the way.

Even if some hikers would appreciate them.

Same reasoning applies along the less traveled AT.

sofaking
05-10-2008, 15:29
i don't care so much for coolers. i prefer my trail magic to come from the nubile, tender and fragrant hands of wood nymphs...or katie couric, wearing her nasty boots. something about being hand fed fun size snickers and having a bag of wine held high overhead for you just makes my wilderness experience that much more enriching and spiritual, call me crazy, but that's how i roll.dawg.

sasquatch2014
05-10-2008, 15:31
As a section hiker who wishes that he could be out doing a Thru I find that getting out and doing a bit of Trail Magic from time to time helps keep me connected to the trail community, much like visits to WB. There are always two sides to most arguments and sometimes a third and fourth side as well. I know I had a situation where I parked my car and went up to the local sheleter to drop off sometings for a couple of hikers who I knew were going to be arriving later I was gone 45 min to come back and have had my car broken into, window smahed I pod and GPS stolen from the glovebox. Needless to say "Happy Feeling Gone".

I agree that care needs to be taken in the how and where of Trail Magic but I don't plan to stop anytime soon. I have replaced the GPS and have my son's Ipod in the car now. I also have a big old can of Whoop Ass reserved for the little punk that broke in if i ever find him.:D

Mango
05-10-2008, 15:43
I know that some of you are former thru-hikers, as am I. I found a couple of empty coolers in '06 and was disappointed. However, I also found some with soft drinks, water, candy, etc. and they were wonderful!! Most of your criticisms are not en point. I tied up the cooler. There were no snacks to attract critters. Most of the cans were soft drinks, with just a few beers. I received several very nice "thank you" notes at the site and in Trailjournals, so I know it was highly appreciated. As far as resupplying, I live about 20 miles from the site and can only get up there twice week at most. Trash has never been a problem - if hikers use my cooler to stash their trash, great. That's what it's there for. I still believe that TM once aweek is better than none at all. I'm just pissed that my last batch of goodies won't be enjoyed by hikers. Balt. Jack, how you doing? Coming to TD?

Tin Man
05-10-2008, 16:41
Balt. Jack, how you doing? Coming to TD?

Lets see, biggest party along the trail, many friends planning to attend, lots of fun and silliness going on, lots of Hardcore cooking needed, presently in the area. Nah, he won't be there. :rolleyes:

saimyoji
05-10-2008, 17:49
I've seen the ills of society spread to the trail and can only say this about unattended food/drinks....I will never accept. You just don't know where they came from, whats been done to them....I'll pass. All the more for you.

A cooler in the woods doesn't really bother me anymore than the trash you pass every few steps. :rolleyes:

max patch
05-10-2008, 18:53
I don't leave trash -- cokes, candy bars, etc -- in the woods.

If you really want to help someone there are better ways than giving free food to people who can afford to buy it themselves. I give to Must Ministries in Marietta; they feed the homeless and other people more needy than hikers.

emerald
05-10-2008, 18:54
I'll pass. All the more for you.

I don't want any either. I'm perfectly capable of obtaining what I desire myself.


If you really want to help someone there are better ways than giving free food to people who can afford to buy it themselves. I give to Must Ministries in Marietta; they feed the homeless and other people more needy than hikers.

United Way here, deducted right from my paycheck. My bi-weekly contributions are pooled with my coworkers' before being distributed to organizations who put it to use where it's needed most in the county where I reside.

Bob S
05-10-2008, 19:15
Drill a hole in the side of the cooler and put a big I-Bolt (3/8 or bigger) on it and chain it to a tree. This way you are going to have a much better chance it will stay put.

emerald
05-10-2008, 19:30
Be present if you provide food or drink. Unattended items—including their packaging—can harm wildlife that consumes them, or hikers, when unrefrigerated products grow bacteria or become contaminated. Unattended items are considered litter and their presence detracts from the wildland character of backcountry environments. Dispense food and drink in person, and carry out any trash or leftovers.


Restore the site. Leave the site as you found it—don’t create a burden for Trail volunteers whose time is better spent in other activities.


Click on post #17 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=619506&postcount=17) to read the entire document if you missed it earlier.

Mango
05-10-2008, 21:20
Jeez, I didn't know I would stir up all the Ralph Nader and Mother Teresa wannabes. Excuuuuuuuse me. I wonder how many of you holier-than-thous have actually thru-hiked.

Programbo
05-10-2008, 21:22
A cooler in the woods doesn't really bother me anymore than the trash you pass every few steps. :rolleyes:

I was avoiding commenting on this thread as I have nothing positive to say about "trail magic" as it has come to be in 2008..But I must comment on the trash part as I have found the trail to be a lot less littered than it was 30 years ago..Recently I went for a day hike on a section of the MD trail and took a trash bag with me to do some unofficial trail clean-up and only ended up picking up 6-8 pieces the entire day and those were near the parking area

Lilred
05-10-2008, 21:53
Jeez, I didn't know I would stir up all the Ralph Nader and Mother Teresa wannabes. Excuuuuuuuse me. I wonder how many of you holier-than-thous have actually thru-hiked.

elitist crap. Sorry, I guess my piddly couple hundred mile sections mean I'm not worthy to have an opinion on coolers left on the AT. Or is trail magic only understood and appreciated by thru-hikers. Oh wait, except leaving coolers in the woods isn't 'magic' at all. Mostly it's litter. But you go right ahead if you feel better doing it.

emerald
05-10-2008, 22:07
I wonder how many of you holier-than-thous have actually thru-hiked.

I don't know if you're referring to me, but I have thru-hiked for what that's worth and I support ATC's and ALDHA's position. Many if not most of the others to whom you may be referring have also.

Lauriep
05-10-2008, 22:54
For those who criticize ATC as not understanding thru-hikers, I will say this: our organization was formed in 1925 to provide a connected hiking trail from Georgia to Maine. Our mission was then and is now to ensure that that A.T. continues to be connected and protected. Every decision we make factors in the long-distance hiker. It's one of the principle tenets in our comprehensive plan.

No organization does more to make sure that the A.T. thru-hiking experience continues to be possible.

As for our "suggestions for providing trail magic," we certainly understand the importance trail magic has for thru-hikers. We know it's a big part of what makes the A.T. thru-hiking experience so special and unique. Many of the staff and volunteers of ATC are thru-hikers or section-hikers, and we've appreciated many kinds of trail magic on our own hikes.

But ATC also has to consider the perspectives of all those who hike the A.T., the volunteers who take care of the Trail, and the public agencies who own the land (almost all consider unattended trail magic "abandoned property" that should be removed). Sure, most thru-hikers appreciate trail magic. But thru-hikers are just passing through--there for a moment. They see the magic only long enough to enjoy it.

The local hiker, the agency entrusted with preserving the integrity of the land, the volunteer who adopts the section may see that plastic or styrofoam cooler over and over again--often knowing the magic is not intended for them. To them, that same "magic" looks a little different.

There are plenty of ways of doing trail magic that are positive for all concerned. Why choose a way that is positive for some but a disappointment for others? I really don't think anyone intentionally does trail magic so it may negatively impact others--I think it's more not being aware of the bigger picture. But, the reality is, unattended trail magic probably will detract from someone's enjoyment of the A.T. It may be a minority, maybe even a small minority, but why take away from someone's experience?

ATC is not against trail magic--we just want to encourage people to do it thoughtfully and responsibly.

Laurie P.
ATC

Frosty
05-10-2008, 23:09
elitist crap. Sorry, I guess my piddly couple hundred mile sections mean I'm not worthy to have an opinion on coolers left on the AT. Or is trail magic only understood and appreciated by thru-hikers. Oh wait, except leaving coolers in the woods isn't 'magic' at all. Mostly it's litter. But you go right ahead if you feel better doing it.Actually, the thread was not asking for anyone's opinion. The original post was about someone taking the cooler. People just decided to hijack the thread and turn it into another pointless rehash of yet another I-don't-like-it-so-nobody-should-do-it bitchfest.

People who appreciated receiving trail magic tend to want to pay it back. People who did not like to get a soda or burger and did not partake obviously have nothing to give back and don't.

Both attitudes are fine. Problems only pop up when someone tells you that you SHOULD provide magic, or why YOU tell someone the should not. Two sides of the same coin, I hope you can reaize.

fiddlehead
05-10-2008, 23:24
Jeez, I didn't know I would stir up all the Ralph Nader and Mother Teresa wannabes. Excuuuuuuuse me. I wonder how many of you holier-than-thous have actually thru-hiked.


Right on Mango! I'm sure many thank you and wish they could in person.

Tennessee Viking
05-10-2008, 23:54
For a couple of months, I've been leaving soft drinks, beer, ice, and clean water at Iron Mtn. Gap, between Unaka Mt and Roan Mt. Yesterday I drove up to restock and discovered that my cooler, the water jugs, and even the rope I used to keep stuff from blowing away have been taken. At least they took the trash, too.

If anyone here took the cooler to refill it, thanks, but please return it. This is just another example of one jerk ruining it for everybody else. I can't afford to buy new coolers and pay $8 per trip for gas, all for nothing.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen anything other than the usual trash at Iron Mtn Gap from recent visits. Iron Mtn Gap is popular with hunters and is one point where horse traffic try to access the AT. Then the dirt road has been a popular party spot. Then any locals who drive by and see a cooler along the road next to the trail knows its treats for hikers.

Since the Eastman Club just redesigned the trailhead, you might have better luck now for Trail Magic. The trail now doesnt make that sharp turn at the highway and doesnt cross the dirt road further up. The new trail crosses straight across the highway and meets up with the trail. We are also building a new more gradual grade on the north side of TN107. We should finish it with one more outting.

I would suggest dropping trail magic at the top of the ridge north of 107. As long as next drops are on trail but out of sight from the road, it will have better luck.

Tin Man
05-11-2008, 00:10
ATC is not against trail magic--we just want to encourage people to do it thoughtfully and responsibly.

Laurie P.
ATC

Excellent post Laurie.

While it would be nice if people like Mango had the time or inclination to attend to their "magic", it sounds to me that Mango, and others like him, are being thoughtful and responsible by regularly maintaining their "magic" coolers.



But, the reality is, unattended trail magic probably will detract from someone's enjoyment of the A.T. It may be a minority, maybe even a small minority, but why take away from someone's experience?

Perhaps, but if people had the time and inclination to set up a table and chairs or just wait in their cars at road crossings and attend their "magic", wouldn't that detract from someone's enjoyment of the A.T.? It might be fun once in awhile (picturing LW's post a few weeks ago about setting up a BBQ), but really, this could get a little weird. A small "maintained" cooler is a lot less detracting, IMO.

Lauriep
05-11-2008, 00:57
Well, you know my solution to these dilemmas : think of volunteering is the ultimate trail magic. Those who want to do something good for other hikers can do trail work for a day with a local trail club, adopt a section of trail, adopt a section of A.T. NPS boundary, work on an trail crew, count American chestnut trees, monitor rare threatened and endangered species, monitor water quality, provide info for and greet visitors at ATC headquarters, stuff guidebook sets, serve on a committee, take an LNT course or teach it to someone else, pick up trash, contribute to or edit guidebooks, lead a hike, remove invasive exotic species.... Among ATC, local trail clubs, ALDHA, there's something for just about everyone.

Lone Wolf
05-11-2008, 01:07
For a couple of months, I've been leaving soft drinks, beer, ice, and clean water at Iron Mtn. Gap, between Unaka Mt and Roan Mt. Yesterday I drove up to restock and discovered that my cooler, the water jugs, and even the rope I used to keep stuff from blowing away have been taken. At least they took the trash, too.

If anyone here took the cooler to refill it, thanks, but please return it. This is just another example of one jerk ruining it for everybody else. I can't afford to buy new coolers and pay $8 per trip for gas, all for nothing.

what you're doing is very wrong. it ain't "magic". it's like feeding bears.

minnesotasmith
05-11-2008, 01:19
what you're doing is very wrong. it ain't "magic". it's like feeding bears.

We need a term for "do TM your own way", comparable to (and as honored) as HYOH. TMYOW?

Frankly, people who left coolers of drinks out made my day more than once during my thruhike. (For those worried about random poisoners, I'd like to know how someone could poison a can containing a beverage under pressure without owning a cannery/bottling facility.)

Remember that Laurie P.'s obediently quoting the ATC bigshots' party line is that it's just suggestions. I didn't vote for whatever suit gets the big salary that says such things. He speaks for himself, and whomever their paycheck depends on his favor. Everyone else, he has to persuade by strength of logic, and he hasn't done much of that yet IMO.

bullseye
05-11-2008, 01:31
Every time I come across a cooler that's supposed to be TM, it winds up being an emty trash bucket. Twice I've been the recipient of TM, once finding a bag of oranges hanging on a tree in the Whites (which probably later became feed for the wildlife), and last Memorial Day at the James River crossing, where a gentleman set up for the weekend and cooked burgers and hotdogs for all the hikers passing through. I would have to say that of all these experiences I hated the coolers, and thorougly enjoyed the BBQ, not because the coolers were empty, but because I could actually thank the kind gentleman doing the TM. I know that trail angels putting out coolers are trying to give something special from their hearts, but there are better ways of making the trail experience special. just my $0.02.

ed bell
05-11-2008, 01:57
Well, you know my solution to these dilemmas : think of volunteering is the ultimate trail magic. Those who want to do something good for other hikers can do trail work for a day with a local trail club, adopt a section of trail, adopt a section of A.T. NPS boundary, work on an trail crew, count American chestnut trees, monitor rare threatened and endangered species, monitor water quality, provide info for and greet visitors at ATC headquarters, stuff guidebook sets, serve on a committee, take an LNT course or teach it to someone else, pick up trash, contribute to or edit guidebooks, lead a hike, remove invasive exotic species.... Among ATC, local trail clubs, ALDHA, there's something for just about everyone.Thanks for your contribution to this thread. I like the suggestions you have contributed and hope that others do as well.


what you're doing is very wrong. it ain't "magic". it's like feeding bears.I agree with this statement as well. I lament the fact that "trail magic" has lost sight of the spontaneity. When it comes down to leaving food/drink behind in the hopes that needy hikers will find it, once it has been consumed, its trash. Warm fuzzy feelings won't change that. Regular attention to the chained up cooler won't change it, either.

We need a term for "do TM your own way", comparable to (and as honored) as HYOH. TMYOW?

Frankly, people who left coolers of drinks out made my day more than once during my thruhike. (For those worried about random poisoners, I'd like to know how someone could poison a can containing a beverage under pressure without owning a cannery/bottling facility.)

Remember that Laurie P.'s obediently quoting the ATC bigshots' party line is that it's just suggestions. I didn't vote for whatever suit gets the big salary that says such things. He speaks for himself, and whomever their paycheck depends on his favor. Everyone else, he has to persuade by strength of logic, and he hasn't done much of that yet IMO.Your opinion of the unattended coolers was skewed because you were only interested in the bonus of free unexpected drinks and snacks. As far as "making your day" goes, did an empty cooler "ruin your day"?...............

Having said that, your tone towards Laurie's response is plain disrespectful. She has no requirement to contribute to this message board, yet she often provides valuable information that no one else has. Her attempt to add some perspective to this discussion deserves more respect than your dismissive commentary. Nuff said.

minnesotasmith
05-11-2008, 02:04
Nobody, but nobody on the planet gets a pass on their words being subject to criticism based on who they are. If someone's premises or logic appears to be faulty, everyone in an environment where truth is honored (which I hope WB will continue to be) is open to that as a condition of their presence. "Judge, and prepare to be judged." That includes Mrs. P., as it would Benton M. or Myron A., were they still alive.

sofaking
05-11-2008, 02:10
Nobody, but nobody on the planet gets a pass on their words being subject to criticism based on who they are. If someone's premises or logic appears to be faulty, everyone in an environment where truth is honored (which I hope WB will continue to be) is open to that as a condition of their presence. "Judge, and prepare to be judged." That includes Mrs. P., as it would Benton M. or Myron A., were they still alive.
do you really live in your mothers basement?

River Runner
05-11-2008, 02:24
I just wish the worst problems we had in this world were a few coolers of drinks left in the woods for hikers to help themselves. The few I've seen so far were left fairly near a road, so I don't really consider them any more of a 'distraction' from wilderness than the road itself. I can't recall seeing any trash near them, but then again, I've only seen a couple.

minnesotasmith
05-11-2008, 03:01
do you really live in your mothers basement?

I post in between doing geology on an oil rig (where I am now) in Colorado.

ed bell
05-11-2008, 03:06
Nobody, but nobody on the planet gets a pass on their words being subject to criticism based on who they are. If someone's premises or logic appears to be faulty, everyone in an environment where truth is honored (which I hope WB will continue to be) is open to that as a condition of their presence. "Judge, and prepare to be judged." That includes Mrs. P., as it would Benton M. or Myron A., were they still alive.I agree, respectfully. Referring to Laurie's contribution as being "obedient" was, IMHO, disrespectful. I'm breaking my "nuff said" rule.

minnesotasmith
05-11-2008, 05:21
But, the reality is unattended trail magic probably will detract from someone's enjoyment of the A.T. It may be a minority, maybe even a small minority, but why take away from someone's experience?

Laurie P.
ATC

One could insert "cigarettes" or "dogs" in there for UTM just as easily. Does the ATC yet favor completely banning those from the Trail? Smokers lighting up in occupied Trail shelters, not to mention dogs trying their d*mnedest to bite me, both negatively impacted my hike far more. Like banning TM, banning cigarettes and (nonseeing-eye) dogs from the AT would not of neccessity keep one single person from hiking.

MOWGLI
05-11-2008, 06:01
Laurie, thanks again for your contributions to the trail. The vast majority of us get it, and appreciate your efforts.

ofthearth
05-11-2008, 07:21
do you really live in your mothers basement?

Ahh yes, another very thoughtful WB comment that meaningfully contributes to discussion at hand. :mad:

Lone Wolf
05-11-2008, 07:28
leaving food and drinks unattended anywhere on the trail is not cool. there's nothing "magical" about it. end of story

MOWGLI
05-11-2008, 07:31
leaving food and drinks unattended anywhere on the trail is not cool. there's nothing "magical" about it. end of story

There is really nothing more to say. That sums it up. Completely.

Dances with Mice
05-11-2008, 07:47
Remember that Laurie P.'s obediently quoting the ATC bigshots' party line is that it's just suggestions. I didn't vote for whatever suit gets the big salary that says such things. He speaks for himself, and whomever their paycheck depends on his favor. Everyone else, he has to persuade by strength of logic, and he hasn't done much of that yet IMO.You must mean the Chairman of the ATC Board of Directors, Bob Almand. He's a former president of the GATC. I have dug trail with Bob and moved rocks with Bob. He gets no big salary.

Logically I would have to say that you, MS, are truly, totally and completely clueless.

Evil Eye
05-11-2008, 07:49
Yet again - Kind deeds seldom go unpunished!
Mango - (& other responsible TM providers) - Thank you for what you do for hikers.

minnesotasmith
05-11-2008, 07:56
You must mean the Chairman of the ATC Board of Directors, Bob Almand. . He gets no big salary.



Please define "no big salary".

MOWGLI
05-11-2008, 07:58
Please define "no big salary".

HE"S A VOLUNTEER.

Dances with Mice
05-11-2008, 08:15
Please define "no big salary".
truly, totally and completely clueless.

minnesotasmith
05-11-2008, 08:22
HE"S A VOLUNTEER.

Link to back this up?

Also, I have this sneaky feeling that the head of the AMC doesn't work nights at Domino's or the equivalent to keep a (large) roof over his head. Anyone want to prove me wrong on that guess?

Heads of public-service-mission orgs often get astounding compensation. William Aramony, former CEO of United Way, got $600,000.00 a year, and repeatedly rode the Concorde on his employer's dime (like $20K a ticket). Last I read, the CEO of the Red Cross pulled in more than that, like a million bucks a year. Don't even get me started on how some notorious televangelists (Jim and Tammy Bakker, say) have been known to live. For a more contemporary example, B. Hussein Obama's wife pulled in a pretty good pile for years (quarter-mil plus) at least through 2006 from a single city-level nonprofit agency. That's a lot of charitable donations p*ssed away on high living for the benefit of people that mostly don't ever manage to do anywhere near as well in private industry. For that reason, I have long advocated that if someone wants to do good, they would usually do best to do it directly, without putting any money in the hands of middlemen. You see where money handed out that way tends to go...

http://www.treehugger.com/toilet-llqq-001.jpg

MOWGLI
05-11-2008, 08:24
truly, totally and completely clueless.

You're being WAY too kind. More like willfully and woefully ignorant.

minnesotasmith
05-11-2008, 08:28
truly, totally and completely clueless.

How's the saying go, if someone can't put numbers to it, they don't know what the h*ll they're talking about?

More than one person considers 6 or 7 figures not much money. Especially for someone employed by a nonprofit, I would beg to differ. Most aren't run like the Salvation Army:

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_charities_salaries.htm

"The Salvation Army's Commissioner Todd Bassett receives a salary of only $13,000 per year (plus housing) for managing this $2 billion dollar organization."

That link also shows base compensation as of 2003 for the United Way and Red Cross CEOs. They've come down some from the earlier stats I gave, but not by all that much.

MOWGLI
05-11-2008, 08:29
If you had an ounce of intelligence or shame, you'd have stop posting long ago.

Jack Tarlin
05-11-2008, 08:33
Smitty:

I like you.

You're a good guy.

I've spoken up on your behalf several times.

But you're embarassing yourself here.

Give it a rest.

Nobody gets rich working for the ATC and your remarks are as ill-informed as they are unkind.

Dances with Mice
05-11-2008, 08:37
How's the saying go, if someone can't put numbers to it, they don't know what the h*ll they're talking about?
Yes, I have heard that. And since you made the accusation that the top ATC decision maker earns a big salary I haven't seen you provide any numbers. So I agree with you that you don't know what the hell you are talking about. That's exactly the point.

minnesotasmith
05-11-2008, 08:43
If you had an ounce of intelligence or shame, you'd have stop posting long ago.

"Let all the world huff and puff as they may, but a man should stand his ground and hold to his own mind, unless persuaded by facts applied to logic."

I notice no one has managed to find a single link showing me that what the ATC (not to mention the AMC) pay their head honchos. Even if not much, they'd be rarities among public service org CEOs.
==========================
http://peacecorpsonline.org/messages/messages/467/2025450.html

Sierra Club CEO paid about $200,000.00/year
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=National_Audubon_Society

National Audubon Society CEO gets about $180,000.00/year (and they have lawyers working for them pulling in over $200K).
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=studies.ceo

Nature Conservancy CEO, over $370,000.00/year
=================================
Yep, it's possible to do well by doing "good", including in outdoor nonprofits...

minnesotasmith
05-11-2008, 08:49
The AMC Executive Director gets a quarter mill a year:

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=3304

Dances with Mice
05-11-2008, 08:50
"Let all the world huff and puff as they may, but a man should stand his ground and hold to his own mind, unless persuaded by facts applied to logic."

I notice no one has managed to find a single link showing me that what the ATC pay their head honchos. I noticed that the person who first made the accusation has provided exactly zero evidence to back up his words!

minnesotasmith
05-11-2008, 08:57
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=8239

The Executive Director of the ATC, David Startzell, gets $117,218.00 a year. Not a killing, but not minimum wage, either. For perspective, that's about 9 times as much as the CEO of the Salvation Army gets to handle an organization about 50 times as large. Looks like the % of revenue spent on by the ATC is higher than at the AMC, too...

Hungry, MOWGLI and Dances? http://jonreid.blogs.com/oneanother/eat-crow.jpg

minnesotasmith
05-11-2008, 08:58
Looks like the % of revenue spent on adminstrative expenses by the ATC is higher than at the AMC, too...

Dances with Mice
05-11-2008, 09:03
Keep the crow on your own plate.

Startzell does NOT SET POLICY! He implements policies, which YOU COMPLAINED ABOUT, set by the Board of Directors. He is an employee following orders. The orders come from the Board.

Now show us the salary of the Chairman of the ATC Board of Directors or start eating the dish you'd like to serve.

minnesotasmith
05-11-2008, 09:16
Weary'd happily be the head honcho of the ATC for a heck of a lot less than 117 grand a year, and would do a better job to boot.

Oh, and some parttime figurehead not getting paid? BFD. It's almost always the paid guys that make the decisions.

Dances with Mice
05-11-2008, 09:17
parttime figurehead absolutely, totally and completely clueless.

mudhead
05-11-2008, 09:20
Might be best to leave Weary out of it.

But you keep digging.

Jack Tarlin
05-11-2008, 09:25
Smitty:

The AMC deals mostly with land in New England (mainly New Hampshire) with a few odds 'n ends (the Mohican Center in New Jersey for example) thrown into the mix. Most of their members live in New England or the Northeast; most of their mailings don't travel that far.

The ATC has to deal with 14 state governments, as well as the Federal bureaucracy. It should therefore not come as any surprise that their administrative expenses might be higher than the AMC's.

Why you are being so vituperative towards this organization completely escapes me.

Tin Man
05-11-2008, 09:25
Well, you know my solution to these dilemmas : think of volunteering is the ultimate trail magic. Those who want to do something good for other hikers can do trail work for a day with a local trail club, adopt a section of trail, adopt a section of A.T. NPS boundary, work on an trail crew, count American chestnut trees, monitor rare threatened and endangered species, monitor water quality, provide info for and greet visitors at ATC headquarters, stuff guidebook sets, serve on a committee, take an LNT course or teach it to someone else, pick up trash, contribute to or edit guidebooks, lead a hike, remove invasive exotic species.... Among ATC, local trail clubs, ALDHA, there's something for just about everyone.

Agreed. And I have said in the past unattended coolers or stuff left at trail heads is trash and should be discouraged. Mango seems to be giving his more attention than some do. One cooler with a garbage can or bag inside is a minor detraction from the A.T. experience compared to some other things. And, as Jack said, water jugs left at trail heads during dry conditions is very helpful.

Tin Man
05-11-2008, 09:27
Why you are being so vituperative towards this organization completely escapes me.

He doesn't descriminate who he vituperatives at.

Jeff
05-11-2008, 09:30
In my view David Starzell is underpaid. You want quality leadership, you've got to pay for it.

Jack Tarlin
05-11-2008, 09:32
Maybe he is.

But nobody goes to work for the ATC in order to get rich.

I made this point earlier but I think Smith still doesn't get it.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
05-11-2008, 09:38
This isn't going to be a popular post, but the ATC's admin cost are above - far above - the costs at other similar agencies. For example: ATC's (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=8239) admin cost - are 12.4% of the total budget while Sierra Club's (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=5838) admin costs are 3.4%, American Hiking Society's (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=10990) are 6.6% and National Audubon Society's (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=4160) are 9.3%. I don't think questioning why is out of line at all.

warren doyle
05-11-2008, 09:40
Interesting thread.

I feel the ATC is a hard-working, well-meaning organization staffed by people whose hearts are in the right place most of the time.
I truly believe that if it wasn't for all the efforts of the ATC that the AT would not be the "free-est, least regulated" trail of all the three major long distance trails.
It has served as a common-sense, user-friendly, tradition-respecting buffer to the one-size-fits-all, individuality-threatening, and over-regulatory NPS management policy.
Keep up the good work that you have done all these years Laurie, Dave, Brian, and Bob.

Just remember that MS just stands for 'mean-spirited'.

Tin Man
05-11-2008, 09:42
This isn't going to be a popular post, but the ATC's admin cost are above - far above - the costs at other similar agencies. For example: ATC's (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=8239) admin cost - are 12.4% of the total budget while Sierra Club's (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=5838) admin costs are 3.4%, American Hiking Society's (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=10990) are 6.6% and National Audubon Society's (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=4160) are 9.3%. I don't think questioning why is out of line at all.

Percent of budget is a rather simplistic view and often leaves out many relevant factors. These organizations do very different things for starters, so this is not comparing apples to apples.

Marta
05-11-2008, 09:50
Smith is actually a perfectly decent guy most of the time.

Ummm, I beg to differ.

What do you say, ladies?

Tin Man
05-11-2008, 09:53
Ummm, I beg to differ.

What do you say, ladies?

I'm not a lady, but can I say something? Oops, I am saying something. Some of that crap he was saying to Cuffs the other day was just abhorrent. Fortunately, Cuffs holds her own very well.

sasquatch2014
05-11-2008, 09:58
Well I like to come on to WB to be a part of the hiking community just like I like to provide TM for the same reason. I have left stuff before but I have also done things like pack extra snacks when out for a Day hike to share with hikers or stop at a shelter and just store wood for the hikes who come in late but would like a fire. Provideing a lift from the laundry mat on a hot day etc these are all types of TM.

Once again a post has disolved into an argument ad nauseum. It is this type of back and forth dribble that makes this "community" appear more like a post apocolyptic free for all. When hidden behind a screen name all the normal pretenses of civiliaty drop away. This is one more post that I think I will now choose to not return to.

Tin Man
05-11-2008, 10:01
Well I like to come on to WB to be a part of the hiking community just like I like to provide TM for the same reason. I have left stuff before but I have also done things like pack extra snacks when out for a Day hike to share with hikers or stop at a shelter and just store wood for the hikes who come in late but would like a fire. Provideing a lift from the laundry mat on a hot day etc these are all types of TM.

Once again a post has disolved into an argument ad nauseum. It is this type of back and forth dribble that makes this "community" appear more like a post apocolyptic free for all. When hidden behind a screen name all the normal pretenses of civiliaty drop away. This is one more post that I think I will now choose to not return to.

Actually, Jack and Warren aren't hiding behind screen names. I believe they actually hate each other. Don't take it too serious. It is just free entertainment.

k-n
05-11-2008, 10:02
i don't care so much for coolers. i prefer my trail magic to come from the nubile, tender and fragrant hands of wood nymphs...or katie couric, wearing her nasty boots. something about being hand fed fun size snickers and having a bag of wine held high overhead for you just makes my wilderness experience that much more enriching and spiritual, call me crazy, but that's how i roll.dawg.
...mmm wood nymphs.

minnesotasmith
05-11-2008, 10:03
Smitty:

Why you are being so vituperative towards this organization completely escapes me.

The ATC is not the AT.

Neither are a suit or two (making more off the Trail than the undoubted majority of their members make from regular jobs) the ATC.

The hikers, trail/shelter constructors/maintainers, trail angels, hostel and shuttle operators, and even the outfitters are far more "the AT" IMO that another paid lobbyist. The head of the ATC is no more the personification of the AT than Wingfoot was (which is what I've heard he considered himself).

The HNCs at the ATC are merely human beings, not royalty. (We don't recognize unearned nobility in this country as a matter of public policy, whatever gushing the supermarket tabloids may do over certain unremarkable inbred Europeans.) Those very fallible (in judgement or ethics) human beings deserve loyalty and support from people who value the AT to the point of approaching reverence (as I do, and many of those participating on this thread do) only to the extent they forward the interests of the AT as we individually assess that they do. (Ask Trail Angel Mary how well the ATC is doing at that.)

From the controversial changes in route in Maine (remember how Earl Shafer got insulted as "not being a real hiker" by the Maine club prez for questioning it?), to their often discouraging services (ask me about what I found out in Palmerton sometime), to defending the poor routing from the Shenandoah to Vermont, to how the ATC is supposedly known to schedule its elections for times and places inconvenient for those not paid staffers (as opposed to, say, at Trail Days), to not speedily disavowing the unethical (Warren Doyle, for example), there is historically plenty about the ATC's leadership that pro-AT people can find to question. It's not a religion, after all.

MOWGLI
05-11-2008, 10:03
I don't think questioning why is out of line at all.

IMO, they have an excellent staff, and have a compensation plan that is at least partly responsible for attracting the quality people that make up the organization.

Lone Wolf
05-11-2008, 10:05
Well I like to come on to WB to be a part of the hiking community just like I like to provide TM for the same reason. I have left stuff before but I have also done things like pack extra snacks when out for a Day hike to share with hikers or stop at a shelter and just store wood for the hikes who come in late but would like a fire. Provideing a lift from the laundry mat on a hot day etc these are all types of TM.

Once again a post has disolved into an argument ad nauseum. It is this type of back and forth dribble that makes this "community" appear more like a post apocolyptic free for all. When hidden behind a screen name all the normal pretenses of civiliaty drop away. This is one more post that I think I will now choose to not return to.

leaving unattended food anywhere on the AT is just plain wrong. hikers don't need to be fed. very simple. leaving the crap is not "trail magic".

MOWGLI
05-11-2008, 10:05
In my view David Starzell is underpaid. You want quality leadership, you've got to pay for it.

I couldn't agree more.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
05-11-2008, 10:11
IMO, they have an excellent staff, and have a compensation plan that is at least partly responsible for attracting the quality people that make up the organization.So are you saying that the salaries are the reason admin costs are so high and that the quality of the staff justifies the expense IYO?

camojack
05-11-2008, 10:12
If nothing else, I've learned about a website that evaluates the efficiency of various charitable organizations on this thread:
http://www.charitynavigator.org/

I'm planning to distribute my income tax refund to a number of charitable organizations, and this time I wanted to look into that.

Now I don't have to figure out for myself where to do that...

MudDuck
05-11-2008, 10:22
[quote=bullseye;619860]Every time I come across a cooler that's supposed to be TM, it winds up being an emty trash bucket.

Anyone else thinks it's funny that all the hikers that snivel about TM coolers and them turning into trash cans all look in them and their complaint about them "being there" always include the point that they were "empty". Anyone leaving a cooler will be coming back for it and people putting their trash in them puts it in there knowing that, plus it's better than throwing it on trail. Who here who puts out coolers have complained about others putting trash in them for them to haul away? Oh thats right, only the people who find them "empty" are complaining.

warren doyle
05-11-2008, 10:22
'Hate?' no

More accurately, somewhere along a continuum between 'dislike' and 'pity'.

minnesotasmith
05-11-2008, 10:30
'Hate?' no

More accurately, somewhere along a continuum between 'dislike' and 'pity'.

That's almost certainly how the honest members on this site regard you. You are with ethics the way a colorblind person is with a rainbow or an aurora. However, since your actions negatively affect other people and the Trail, our inclination is to hold you accountable for your misdeeds, however incomprehensible you find this.

MudDuck
05-11-2008, 10:33
Back in the early 90"s my Boy Scout troop had to sell a 2.00 bag of pop corn for 10.00 and my boys that worked their arse off doing it only got .50 out of the sell. All the while the BS director made like 250k per year. At the same time I was having to buy out of my pocket half my boys uniforms at 30.00+ per shirt (which went back to BS too) because we didn't make enough money from our "fund raisers" because the money went back to corprate BS. I agree with MS concerning public service CEO's being overpaid.
I agree with MS.

k-n
05-11-2008, 10:42
it looks like we could use some thread magic. how bout those mets?

Skyline
05-11-2008, 10:53
Maybe he is.

But nobody goes to work for the ATC in order to get rich.

I made this point earlier but I think Smith still doesn't get it.


No, he certainly doesn't get it.

Even after you correctly attempted to modify MS' behavior, he wrote this:

"Neither are a suit or two (making more off the Trail than the undoubted majority of their members make from regular jobs) the ATC . . ."

I count a grand total of only eight paid, titled positions in the masthead of AT Journeys, ATC's magazine. I know there are more paid positions than that, but these are the dedicated folks with the most responsibilities.

MS seems to think these ATC employees make their living "off the Trail." IMHO they make their living by putting in a lot of long hours doing a good job . . . for the non-profit organization that oversees the AT.

If it wasn't for the many hundreds of dedicated volunteers that unselfishly give their time, and often money, the AT wouldn't be the AT. The same thing could be said about the paid staff. It might be nice to think that such a large organization could be operated with all volunteers at the top, or even staff paid a lot less at the top—but it is unlikely we would find a group so well qualified to put in 40, 60, or 80 hour weeks year after year for little or no pay. The ATC needs both its paid staff, and its volunteers, to continue the mission. They all do a good job.

MOWGLI
05-11-2008, 10:54
So are you saying that the salaries are the reason admin costs are so high and that the quality of the staff justifies the expense IYO?

I think that Charity Navigator is not the most effective means to measure the efficacy of a non-profit.

I am not a financial analyst, nor do I have any desire to become one. Having been around a number of ATC staffers, I can tell you that they have an excellent staff. That's what I'm trying to say.

minnesotasmith
05-11-2008, 10:56
The ATC needs both its paid staff, and its volunteers, to continue the mission. They all do a good job.

In a group of any size, there are almost always some slackers and incompetents. It's quite improbable the ATC is a unique exception to this rule.

Skyline
05-11-2008, 10:57
Back in the early 90"s my Boy Scout troop had to sell a 2.00 bag of pop corn for 10.00 and my boys that worked their arse off doing it only got .50 out of the sell. All the while the BS director made like 250k per year. At the same time I was having to buy out of my pocket half my boys uniforms at 30.00+ per shirt (which went back to BS too) because we didn't make enough money from our "fund raisers" because the money went back to corprate BS. I agree with MS concerning public service CEO's being overpaid.
I agree with MS.


Apples and rutabagas.

The paid staff at ATC doesn't make nearly that kind of $$$.

The volunteers connected with the AT, for the most part, do necessary work. They don't typically spend their time holding bake sales or selling $2 bags of popcorn for $10. They certainly aren't required to buy special uniforms out of pocket.

rickb
05-11-2008, 10:58
In my view David Starzell is underpaid. You want quality leadership, you've got to pay for it.

I think the ATC used to pay slave wages to thier top people, but that changed a few short years ago when they were given a decent boost. Still, not out of line with respect to thier budget.

I do give the ATC credit for posting all this info on thier website for those who are interested. While this info is a matter of public record, very few take this approach.

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.786765/k.AAF0/Annual_Reports.htm

Skyline
05-11-2008, 11:04
In a group of any size, there are almost always some slackers and incompetents. It's quite improbable the ATC is a unique exception to this rule.

If you have irrefutable proof that there is someone within the paid ATC hierarchy who is a slacker or is incompetent, you could always run for the Board and do your best to replace them. In the absence of such proof, you need to calm down and stop insinuating things that aren't worth repeating.

Why do you loathe ATC? After all, this is the organization that is the shepherd for a Trail you spent nearly a year hiking on, and one may assume that experience was a highlight of your life. Seems kinda ungrateful.

emerald
05-11-2008, 11:08
Oh, that's right, only the people who find them "empty" are complaining.

I'm not and most who read carefully will see there is little if any complaining about empty coolers. The discussions about unattended coolers are about inappropriate use of public property by certain individuals who insist upon using it as they see fit to advance their own objectives which are really more about their personal desires rather than hikers' needs.

Perfectly reasonable suggestions have been put forth by ATC with which everyone could and might yet agree. Unattended coolers are a minor issue on which a few seem hopelessly stuck.

Tin Man
05-11-2008, 11:37
I think that Charity Navigator is not the most effective means to measure the efficacy of a non-profit.

I am not a financial analyst, nor do I have any desire to become one. Having been around a number of ATC staffers, I can tell you that they have an excellent staff. That's what I'm trying to say.

Thanks for clarifying. At first read, you said the head of the ATC is not a paid position. Then when you said you get what you pay for... Staffers are obvioulsy paid.

Like I said before, you cannot compare the ATC to most charitable organizations, at least none of the ones mentioned so far. I dare say the ATC is quite unique.

rickb
05-11-2008, 11:38
Smith is actually a perfectly decent guy most of the time. In this case, he's merely mistaken.

And I'm sure this post will be shortly deleted, but it needed to be said. :D


For a misogynist who has little understanding of the Trail, you could be right.

MOWGLI
05-11-2008, 11:39
Thanks for clarifying. At first read, you said the head of the ATC is not a paid position. Then when you said you get what you pay for... Staffers are obvioulsy paid.



Actually, that's not what I said. At all. The Chairman of the Board is not a Staffer. Nowhere did I say that ATC Staff is unpaid.

sofaking
05-11-2008, 11:40
Ahh yes, another very thoughtful WB comment that meaningfully contributes to discussion at hand. :mad:
go to the straight forward threads, you won't have such a hard time keeping up there... my question to ms was in reference to an earlier post addressed to him.

MOWGLI
05-11-2008, 11:47
The best measure of an organization's effectiveness is looking at an organization's Mission, and looking at their programs & accomplishments relevant to their Mission.

How much of the AT corridor is now under federal protection? Compare that to any federally designated trail of similar size. What sort of education programs are they undertaking?

Personally, I think that the ATC's Trail to Every Classroom program is worth supporting the organization - alone. But they are working on removing invasive species. Protecting important places like Rocky Fork and Sterling Forest. And then there is the MEGA Transect project.

The ATC is an organization that deserves our support, not our derision.

Dances with Mice
05-11-2008, 11:53
Actually, that's not what I said. At all. The Chairman of the Board is not a Staffer. Nowhere did I say that ATC Staff is unpaid.And the Staff works for the BoD. If there are any complaints about how the Trail is managed then blame the Board not the Staff. It's not complicated, it's so simple that someone is trying very hard to ignore it.

Tin Man
05-11-2008, 11:57
Actually, that's not what I said. At all. The Chairman of the Board is not a Staffer. Nowhere did I say that ATC Staff is unpaid.

Of course not. But it was easy to misinterpret your remarks, at least easy for me on first read. :o

My apologies.

sofaking
05-11-2008, 12:00
folks can hide the coolers- and give out gps coordinates via an underground, clandestine movement called 'feed the hippies' or 'yummy snack agenda' - but beware of the diabolical plot, most of the snacks will be loaded with preservatives and liberal vote inducing drugs, causing the horrible side effect of wanting to provide more tasty snacks to even more hippies at even more g.p.s specified points...

Tin Man
05-11-2008, 12:00
And the Staff works for the BoD. If there are any complaints about how the Trail is managed then blame the Board not the Staff. It's not complicated, it's so simple that someone is trying very hard to ignore it.

Actually, if anyone needs blaming, it should go to the ones who chose not to understand the ATC, continue to deride it, and then still hike the A.T.

Dances with Mice
05-11-2008, 12:01
Actually, if anyone needs blaming, it should go to the ones who chose not to understand the ATC, continue to deride it, and then still hike the A.T....and not join it...

dessertrat
05-11-2008, 12:19
It seems to me that hikers are becoming just a bit too self-congratulatory. Here we have a bunch of people, 99% of whom have money in pocket and left comfortable homes to go walk through the woods, thinking it is a good idea to leave coolers in the woods, where the contents are fair game for animals as well as people. (And don't tell me a beer or raccoon can't open a beer or coke can. They can, and will).

You would think they were feeding the homeless in Calcutta from the attitudes displayed about trail magic here.

Long distance hikers are not Gods or sacred cows, or in need of constant administrations of "magic". They are decent good folks (usually) who choose to walk through the woods and live out of a nylon sack. That's all.

MOWGLI
05-11-2008, 12:20
Of course not. But it was easy to misinterpret your remarks, at least easy for me on first read. :o

My apologies.

No apology necessary. I just wanted to be clear - so a certain someone who is obviously incapable of understanding the distinction - didn't gloat with glee.

MOWGLI
05-11-2008, 12:23
And the Staff works for the BoD.

Actually, just the Executive Director reports to the Board. Unless otherwise indicated in the bylaws.

minnesotasmith
05-11-2008, 12:25
If you have irrefutable proof that there is someone within the paid ATC hierarchy who is a slacker or is incompetent, you could always run for the Board and do your best to replace them. In the absence of such proof, you need to calm down and stop insinuating things that aren't worth repeating.

Why do you loathe ATC? After all, this is the organization that is the shepherd for a Trail you spent nearly a year hiking on, and one may assume that experience was a highlight of your life. Seems kinda ungrateful.

1) There are virtually no working groups of any size without deadwood. To say that the ATC is a unique exception to that that would be hard to believe, and requiring evidence on the part of the person making that assertion.

2) Post #93 above gives my reasoning for not worshipping the ATC.

3) I am an antimisandrist, not a misogynist. Acceptance of feminist hate and contempt for men (ironically born of fear, unmet needs from men, and envy) is so ubiquitious, absence of misandry is commonly seen by the less perceptive as less moral, rather than more moral, as it is.

Tin Man
05-11-2008, 12:32
3) I am an antimisandrist, not a misogynist. Acceptance of feminist hate and contempt for men (ironically born of fear, unmet needs from men, and envy) is so ubiquitious, absence of misandry is commonly seen by the less perceptive as less moral, rather than more moral, as it is.


Dude, you need to break the Prozacs in half.

OregonHiker
05-11-2008, 12:33
1) There are virtually no working groups of any size without deadwood. To say that the ATC is a unique exception to that that would be hard to believe, and requiring evidence on the part of the person making that assertion.



So what you are saying is, guilty until proven innocent

Tin Man
05-11-2008, 12:35
No apology necessary. I just wanted to be clear - so a certain someone who is obviously incapable of understanding the distinction - didn't gloat with glee.

And that, sir, was my objective as well. :cool:

sofaking
05-11-2008, 12:37
eastern blue birds, male and female on my feeder right now...

Tin Man
05-11-2008, 12:41
eastern blue birds, male and female on my feeder right now...

Does the female hate the male for his maledom?

sorry ;)

CrumbSnatcher
05-11-2008, 12:42
Well, you know my solution to these dilemmas : think of volunteering is the ultimate trail magic. Those who want to do something good for other hikers can do trail work for a day with a local trail club, adopt a section of trail, adopt a section of A.T. NPS boundary, work on an trail crew, count American chestnut trees, monitor rare threatened and endangered species, monitor water quality, provide info for and greet visitors at ATC headquarters, stuff guidebook sets, serve on a committee, take an LNT course or teach it to someone else, pick up trash, contribute to or edit guidebooks, lead a hike, remove invasive exotic species.... Among ATC, local trail clubs, ALDHA, there's something for just about everyone.
justed wanted to say hello. thanks for all the hard work, from all of the staff at A.T.C. in 99' i was so broke atc sent me back my lifetime membership funds(i think i was partially paid up) so i could finish my hike. then i sent the money back after the hike. that was indeed trail magic. saving up now for my daughters lifetime membership. LOL to everyone who has ever dropped thier pack for a little trail work.

Mango
05-11-2008, 12:46
Maybe this will be the last word in this thread, but I doubt it. I never realized I would be opening up a critique of the financing and staffing of the ATC when I vented about one lousy little cooler. The power of the keyboard is strong.

For the record, I did not leave any food, just drinks. And I don't mind my cooler being used for trash.

I'm most surprised to find that I am in agreement with MS (to a limited extent) and in disagreement with BJ and LW. I have met MS on the Trail and Jack at Miss Janet's, et al. I have not yet met Lone Wolf, but hope to this week and correct his flawed thinking over a brew.

This might sound self-promoting but I don't mean it to be. My wife and I do other kinds of TM besides unattended coolers; we are not just wilderness-ruiners (eh, Marta?). I also volunteered my time and professional specialty to the ATC after I retired. My offer was acknowledged but has not yet been taken up.

Thanks to those of you who sympathized with me. To those who didn't, esp Laurie at ATC and two local Trail Maintainers, thank you for giving me another view to this issue.

See you at Trail Days, I hope.

Tin Man
05-11-2008, 12:49
Amen.

Quick, close the thread!!!

sofaking
05-11-2008, 12:50
feed the hippies!

rafe
05-11-2008, 13:06
3) I am an antimisandrist, not a misogynist.

No, you're just a white American male a*hole with an ego the size of.... Minnesota. I removed "typical" from my list of adjectives cuz (thankfully) you're way beyond the norm.

sofaking
05-11-2008, 13:07
subvert the dominant paradigm!

Heater
05-11-2008, 13:17
Free Willy!

sofaking
05-11-2008, 13:22
rock the vote!

bulldog49
05-11-2008, 13:26
It seems to me that hikers are becoming just a bit too self-congratulatory. Here we have a bunch of people, 99% of whom have money in pocket and left comfortable homes to go walk through the woods, thinking it is a good idea to leave coolers in the woods, where the contents are fair game for animals as well as people. (And don't tell me a beer or raccoon can't open a beer or coke can. They can, and will).

You would think they were feeding the homeless in Calcutta from the attitudes displayed about trail magic here.

Long distance hikers are not Gods or sacred cows, or in need of constant administrations of "magic". They are decent good folks (usually) who choose to walk through the woods and live out of a nylon sack. That's all.

My feelings exactly. No more need to set up "trail magic" on the AT than there is to do it on the side of an Interstate highway.

Heater
05-11-2008, 13:29
Who put the ram in the ram-a-lam-a-ding-dong?

sofaking
05-11-2008, 13:30
who put the shoop in the shoopity shoopity doop?

dessertrat
05-11-2008, 13:35
No, you're just a white American male a*hole with an ego the size of.... Minnesota. I removed "typical" from my list of adjectives cuz (thankfully) you're way beyond the norm.

What does the White American part of it have to do with anything? You look white and American to me, too.

sofaking
05-11-2008, 13:37
because we are the elite ruling class that control the world, sheesh, didn't you get the memo?

dessertrat
05-11-2008, 13:39
because we are the elite ruling class that control the world, sheesh, didn't you get the memo?

I missed the memo, I was too busy reporting on my neighbor's anti-revolutionary activities.

sofaking
05-11-2008, 13:44
...new boss...same as the old boss...heh heh...

Appalachian Tater
05-11-2008, 16:02
Wow, and I thought only the politics forum had heated threads these days.

MudDuck
05-11-2008, 16:19
because we are the elite ruling class that control the world, sheesh, didn't you get the memo?
Now thats funny right there,,,I don't care who ya r.

Marta
05-11-2008, 18:57
See you at Trail Days, I hope.


Hope to see you there, Mango!

Please say hello to Mrs. Mango from me. You are both are generous, considerate people, friends to The Trail, as well as to many hikers individually. Thank you.

SGT Rock
05-11-2008, 19:06
People have them out here too from time to time.

So since everyone got their say in and MS is now talking about his hate of feminists again. Time for a time out.