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Squeamish
05-10-2008, 22:24
I am hiking for a week on the AT starting in Demascus in mid July, does anyone have any ways to keep off the bugs (like mosquitos, etc) and ticks/chiggers. I tried using DEET but it was a bit too oily for me. If you do know of something, where can I get it at? Thank you SOOOOOO much!:banana

Summit
05-10-2008, 22:32
What you should look for is a "time-release" product like this:

http://www.rei.com/product/686229

It's a little oily but I haven't found effective ones that aren't. 100% DEET is not good, contrary to some opinions. 34% along with the time-release agent works very well.

Summit
05-10-2008, 23:18
I read somewhere that the "experimental" non-DEET products are just that . . . experimental. I don't think you want to be in test-mode on a week-long hike. Could turn into an unenjoyable experience. Beware of the "Aunt Velma's secret concoctions!" :D

sofaking
05-10-2008, 23:26
i tried one of those deet alternatives a few years ago, it was a 'pyri' something? didn't work worth a damn. came home after walking the fields head hunting and looked like i was wearing black socks.

fiddlehead
05-10-2008, 23:31
Most people here in Asia (malaria, dengue fever) just wear long sleeve shirts and long pants to protect themselves. Works for me.

sofaking
05-10-2008, 23:36
you can try taking 7.5 grain tablets of brewer's yeast daily to keep mosquitos away, works for me, but i like to wage chemical warfare against ticks. also heard about but haven't tried transdermal bug patches, they use b vitamins to keep the pests away, like the brewer's yeast does.

Darwin again
05-10-2008, 23:41
Get permethrin. Called Permanone (sp?) as a brand name.
Keeps the ticks and most other nasties from being a problem.
This is what I use: Repel. (http://www.repel.com/ProductCategories/Insectrepellents/Permanone/)

Not oily or sticky, but not much use against flying bloodsuckers, since it doesn't interfere with their ability to locate victims by sensing co2.

I spray it on my shoes and low gaiters, as well as pack bottom and external tent floor. One application is supposed to last for a week or two, and through a few washings of clothes. (My kids don't have two heads, either.)

Darwin again
05-10-2008, 23:43
In my world, bugs that suck my blood aren't entitled to green solutions or geneva convention rights: they die by chemicals, no questions asked or quarter given. ;-)

Bob S
05-10-2008, 23:50
Permethrin sprayed on your clothes before you go on the trip will easily last the whole trip and it works great. No bites at all through your clothes. Sawyer makes a DEET product (it’s a lotion) called “Controlled Release” it’s for your skin. It and Permethrin will give you 100% coverage from bugs.

My son and I use these 2 products, and while sitting around a camp fire others will be swatting mosquitoes, we are not bothered at all.

take-a-knee
05-11-2008, 00:49
Permethrin sprayed on your clothes before you go on the trip will easily last the whole trip and it works great. No bites at all through your clothes. Sawyer makes a DEET product (it’s a lotion) called “Controlled Release” it’s for your skin. It and Permethrin will give you 100% coverage from bugs.

My son and I use these 2 products, and while sitting around a camp fire others will be swatting mosquitoes, we are not bothered at all.

Add sulpher to the list for tick country.

greentick
05-11-2008, 01:30
Chigg-away? That's old school. But then again...

Heater
05-11-2008, 01:41
Add sulpher to the list for tick country.

That is what we used back in the 60's.

A bag full of Sulpher to "dust" yourself with. Bang it against the pants leg and anywhere else they might jump on. Worked back then... :-?

take-a-knee
05-11-2008, 06:26
Chigg-away? That's old school. But then again...

IIRC Chigg-away's main ingredient is sulphur. You can buy sulphur by the pound at a large pharmacy. I've mixed it 50/50 with baby powder to cut the stench. Like Austex says just dust your clothing with it, it works.

StubbleJumper
05-11-2008, 10:23
This time of year, it's the blackflies and mosquitoes that are beginning to be a problem. Yesterday I did 15 miles, with long sleeves. It's a good option when temperatures are 70 or lower. But you can't beat DEET when it gets hot and there are swarms of mossies.

Lilred
05-11-2008, 10:35
My sister moved to Key West and when I was down there, the locals told me they use Listerine to keep the sand fleas away. I wondered if that would work for no see ums and other biting insects as well. Anyone else hear about this one?

glacier48
05-11-2008, 11:46
Try the natural health food stores. They are more natural and organic and less irritating to the skin and the senses. I find that they need to be be applied more often. I think the name is Buzz Off or something like that. It is not to expensive. My husband thinks it may have some citronella in it so I am not sure how you would like that. Any who, check into if interested.
:sun
Glacier

sofaking
05-11-2008, 12:10
My sister moved to Key West and when I was down there, the locals told me they use Listerine to keep the sand fleas away. I wondered if that would work for no see ums and other biting insects as well. Anyone else hear about this one?
i thought listerine helped keep the cavity creeps away?
'we makes hole in teeth, we make holes in teeth!'
(it was actually crest that kept them away)

Summit
05-11-2008, 13:03
Brewer's yeast, sulfur, and Listerine . . . now there's some Aunt Velma's concoctions for you! :eek: "Try 'em thar potions sonny boy!" :D

It seems that Permethrin can be very harmful to YOU and the environment:

http://www.safe2use.com/poisons-pesticides/pesticides/permethrin/cox-report/cox.htm

sofaking
05-11-2008, 13:12
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewer's_yeast

Summit
05-11-2008, 13:26
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewer's_yeast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewer%27s_yeast)So are you going to brew some beer or kill some bugs on your next hike? :D :p

sofaking
05-11-2008, 13:31
homebrew in a camelback...:-?

Squeamish
05-11-2008, 15:44
Thank you all for your comments!!! I am ordering some clothes spray and some cotrolled release stuff. Hopefully that does the tick (haha)!

Bob S
05-11-2008, 20:20
Thank you all for your comments!!! I am ordering some clothes spray and some cotrolled release stuff. Hopefully that does the tick (haha)!
No need to order either one, Wal-Mart and about every other store has both of them in stock all year long.

Lilred
05-11-2008, 21:34
I had heard the results of a consumers report on bug repellents and the best was sportsman's off with deet. I use that, and wear pants.

Summit
05-11-2008, 21:56
I'm pretty sure Consumer Reports' field condition was a BBQ at wayside park, not "Big Dismal Swamp!" :eek: Of course DEET is DEET so percent active ingredient and time-release are key, not brand.

Appalachian Tater
05-11-2008, 22:10
I tried using DEET but it was a bit too oily for me. Read up on the effects of Lyme disease and you'll be using the DEET without worrying about it being oily. Smelly, oily stuff on your skin vs. permanent neuro damage, take your pick.

Summit
05-11-2008, 22:25
Anyone ever try "Skin So Soft?" It was popular quite a few years ago. I tried it a few times with some success . . . sure smelled better. But on the Long Trail in Vermont I got eaten alive with it and have never used it since . . . Aunt Velma lied to me! :D :p

sofaking
05-11-2008, 22:26
them yankee skeeters have a taste for southern food...

Summit
05-11-2008, 22:38
them yankee skeeters have a taste for southern food...Yep, they got more of my blood than the Red Cross! :eek:

sofaking
05-11-2008, 22:39
Yep, they got more of my blood than the Red Cross! :eek:
but at least you smelled soft and sweet...

Bob S
05-11-2008, 22:50
Anyone ever try "Skin So Soft?" It was popular quite a few years ago. I tried it a few times with some success . . . sure smelled better. But on the Long Trail in Vermont I got eaten alive with it and have never used it since . . . Aunt Velma lied to me! :D :p
I read an on-line review for it and the review said it was good for only 30-min, then had to be reapplied.


DEET is the King of bug juice for stuff you put on your skin.

Here is some good info on all kinds Bug Juice.



Deet Permethrin Performance


http://www.tickinfo.com/permethrin.htm (http://www.tickinfo.com/permethrin.htm)



The DOD Chemical Protection System: The Department of Defense (DoD) utilizes a system of two chemical components in conjunction with the field dress uniform. The EPA approved components of this system include the insecticide permethrin and the insect repellent deet (N, N-diethyl-m-tiluarnide) in concentrations less than 33%.
Note: Not all permethrin is blended for the purpose of bonding to fabric. Most permethrin is agricultural which is for pest control on vegetation. Its design purpose is to stick to plants thus protecting the plants. Veterinary products are designed to adhere to animal skins/hair or premises and are not for fabric application. Some permethrin is formulated for treatment of medical conditions such as head lice and scabies. The formulations are not interchangeable mostly because of solvents utilized. Always refer to manufacturers label and use instructions.
Permethrin is virtually non-toxic to humans and no systemic effects have been reported. In EPA and FDA tests, it was uncommon to have any skin reddening, rash or other irritation. When used as a repellent, permethrin is applied to exterior clothing where it dries and bonds to the cloth fiber. This water-based formula is non-staining, odorless and has exceptional resistance to degradation by sunlight (UV), heat and water. Although permethrin is approved for skin application under certain circumstances such as head lice formulas, it is not applied to skin as a repellent. Permethrin does not bond to skin (stick) and is quickly deactivated by skin's esterase action into inactive compounds. Because of these attributes permethrin offers no repellent benefit on skin. It is only effective when used as a clothing treatment. Deactivation of permethrin on skin occurs in approximately 20 minutes, When placed on clothing it will last 2 weeks (even up to 1 year with special application) and will even last through weekly launderings. With the long history of success permethrin has achieved, it is best not to second-guess these extraordinary results. By following the directions provided on the product you can be assured of results that achieve protection at or near 100%. Any variation of instructions that placed less permethrin on clothing will result in diminished performance.
Permethrin Mosquito Tests:The early history of permethrin development involved tests on mosquitoes conducted by the US Army and Air Force. Tests showed that when lightweight uniforms were treated until moist (approximately 3ounces) the permethrin alone (0. 5%solution) gave 97.7%protection from mosquitoes and 99.9%protection when used in combination with deet (33%solution). Two detergent washings did not diminish mosquito repellent and killing action of permethrin-treated uniforms.
An interesting side note: The effectiveness of permethrin can be shown in the following report highlight that was reported in a very matter of fact statement. During testing in the Everglades, "Mosquitoes were also repelled because of the side-stream effect caused by numerous treated uniforms within the same general location. This required that the test site be moved to locate more mosquitoes!"
Permethrin Tick Tests:Test on ticks conducted in Massachusetts concluded that 100% protection was provided against the Deer tick (Ixodes Scapularis) which is the primary vector of Lyme disease in the Midwest and Northeast. The same outstanding results occurred when testing the Western Black Legged tick, Lone Star tick, American Dog tick and Brown Dog tick. Similar results have been found with other tick species throughout the United States and Europe. Two detergent washings did not diminish repellent killing action of permethrin-treated uniforms. In tests, ticks that crossed only 10 inches of treated fabric fell from the uniform, later dying due to this limited exposure.
Note: Military application of permethrin (Permethrin Arthropod Repellent) varies from civilian application in that 4.5 ounces are applied to the uniform and the remaining contents of the 6 ounce container used to treat mosquito netting. The difference in application also results in increased protection. It is specified that "reapply after six weeks and sixth laundering." The additional 1.5 ounces doubled the 2 to 3 week protection realized from the civilian application of 3 ounces. Full protection is realized by use of permethrin AND application of standard issue repellent approved for skin application (3M Ultrathon)
DEET (N, N-.diethyl-m-tiluamide):is an approved repellent for skin application. Exposure to high concentrations of deet can pose some limited health hazards. At the time concentrations of 33%as provided in the 3M Ultrathon product were chosen by the military for its superior performance and high margin of safety. Up until the 3M product was chosen the military had been using a 100% deet. It was uncomfortable to wear and easily damaged certain materials. Since the 3M Ultrathon introduction, some new developments have been made using deet in special micro encapsulated formulas that have tested quite well and last some 20 hours between applications. Deet-based products are available in a wide variety of formulas that can address the very specific needs of the individual traveler, outdoors person, family member and even young children. Specific blends with other repellents to repel biting flies are called composites, while others formulas have been added to sunscreen for convenient dual-purpose application.
Early research on deet showed that performance dropped off when concentrations of 35% or higher were tested. As an example, if a 30%deet concentration offers satisfactory repellent action for four hours, an assumption that a 60% deet would last eight hours is not correct. The 60% product may only last about 5 hours. In the use of standard deet formulas, it is more effective to use lower concentrations of deet with more frequent application than to assume the higher concentrations to be longer lasting. They are not. Most brand-name deet-based products already have a deet range from 15%to 33%.Once the threat of insect/tick bite is over, the repellent should be washed off. Deet by itself tested between 85%to 89%effective at repelling ticks (deet does not kill either ticks or mosquitoes) and 97% against mosquitoes.
The DoD system consists of both permethrin treated clothing and deet applied to skin. The use of one without the other will undermine the system and increase the risk of insect or tick bite. Many non-deet products are available on the market and are not part of the DoD protection system. They show ineffective repellent performance and are not recommended for any situation where disease transmission is a threat.


HOW REPELLENTS WORK
There are two main repellents that are recommended and are the only chemicals approved for use in the DoD protection system. When used together, they provide nearly 100% protection from ticks, mosquitoes, chiggers, fleas and other marauding insects


Deet repellents work by evaporation, creating a shield a few inches above the area of application. The presence of the repellent vapor confuses insects so they can’t locate a target host. In most cases it usually requires less than 1% of the repellent to form this protective barrier. It is the combination of this "evaporation delivery system", and the base repellent you choose that determines how much repellent you must apply. Different technologies used in making repellents will determine the initial application and re-application required for basis protection. Another consideration must also include the insect you're trying to repel. While most mosquitoes in the U.S. respond to basic application levels, some more aggressive species found in Africa will require more frequent ** application. Until recent outbreaks of West Nile encephalitis and an infrequent instance of malaria on the U.S. East Coast, mosquito bites were considered nuisances with little regard to disease issues.

** New technology found in Sawyers Controlled Release (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=620456#Controlled Release)allows for a single application each day that can be adjusted to account for more aggressive insects on the initial application

Essential Oils: Many compounds that occur in nature provide a brief period of repellency against certain insects. There are well over 150 natural repellents while the most common are Citronella, Eucalyptus, Lemon Leaves, Peppermint, Lavender, Cedar Oil, Canola, Rosemary, Pennyroyal, and Cajeput. Persons concerned about exposure to deet or who prefer a natural solution can use essential oils. Generally the EPA considers these oils safe to use in low dosage but overall their effectiveness is limited to less than 30 minutes.

Deet (N,N-diethyl-m-toluamide): Deet is by far the most commonly used insect repellent worldwide. This is because it is the most effective repellent against mosquitoes, ticks and other biting insects. After researching hundreds of compounds, deet was selected by the USDA and the US Military as the safest and most economical. See additional information on deet at the end of this report

R-326 (Di-n-propyl Isocinchomeronate): R-326 is the most effective insect repellent against flies, gnats, no-see-ums, and similar pesky insects. R-326 is far more effective than deet against these insects and R-326 only needs to be present in small quantities

MGK-264 (N-octyl bicycloheptene dicarboximide): MGK 264 is both a mosquito repellent and a synergist. As a synergist, MGK 264 both repels mosquitoes and helps the deet to do an even better job of repelling mosquitoes than it would by itself. The MGK 264molecule is much larger than the deet molecule in size and thus not absorbed well by the skin.

Permethrin: Although known as a repellent, permethrin is actually a contact insecticide. That is, it kills ticks or other insects that come in contact with it. Permethrin is considered ideal because it is applied to clothing, gear, mosquito nets and bedding and is not applied directly on the body. When applied to clothing and equipment, permethrin is very effective at reducing the mosquito population in your campsite or sleeping quarters by killing mosquitoes that "hang around" camp and land on things. Where ticks are a concern, permethrin on clothing or gear will kill ticks that travel across as little as 10" of treated fabric. Spray applications of permethrin remain effective up several weeks and through weekly washings. Dip applications can remain effective even longer. Permethrin is harmless to skin and is used extensively in other formulas for treatment of head lice.

Delivery Systems: Weather you choose deet or essential oils, the delivery system is through evaporation. If you choose permethrin, the delivery system is through treatment of clothing or gear.

Deet is used in numerous formulations that combine it at different strengths and with carriers such as alcohol, polymers or others. Deet is also blended with other repellents noted earlier . . . the options are numerous. Deet has been found to limit incremental protection when concentrations go beyond 35%. Most recently a new water based product (normally alcohol is the base) has been developed that shows extraordinary promise of both safety of use and protection realized.
Controlled Release: (Sub-Micron Encapsulation): Introduced in 1998, is by far the most advanced and effective delivery system available. The active ingredient, deet, is encapsulated (surrounded) at a 20% concentration within a skin nourishing protein just the way air is captured within a ping pong ball . . . and the system is water based. An application of Controlled Release contains many of these protein Ping-Pong balls that are suspended in a water-based lotion. After contact with skin, the protein balls begin to breakdown releasing the captured deet. The process continues as each microscopic ball is depleted then replaced by a new ball that contacts the skin, releases its deet and so on. The process takes up to 24 hours for one application. The initial application can be adjusted when the user is in an area of more aggressive insects. To adjust simply apply more product during initial application, with no need to reapply during the day. The only commercially available product using this technology is Sawyer Controlled Release (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/sawyer.htm)
Because protein's adherence to the skin is so effective, these formulas are very resistant to perspiration (sweat-off), and water. When applied they are dry and comfortable with no greasiness. This system results in very effective protection and is the safest repellent by far. However, it is only effective when used on skin because clothing does not have the capability to release the proteins.
Entrapment: This system uses a polymer to encase the repellent (deet), which slows down the early evaporation leaving more deet available for later evaporation. This system can often increase a repellent's length of effectiveness by 25% to 50% over comparable non-entrapped deet products. The negatives of this system are that these formulas are often greasy because of the presence of the polymer. The only commercially available product using this technology is 3M Ultrathon (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/ultrathon.htm)
Composites: Composites use the presence of a synergist, or potentiator, to keep stimulating the evaporation of the remaining deet and fly repellents (R-326). In non-synergist products, only 25% to 30% of the total deet applied evaporates, but the synergist can increase this rate and improve the overall effectiveness of a formula by 50% or more.


Deet + R-326 + MGK 264 = Composite

Add these three active ingredients together and you get what we call a COMPOSITE insect repellent. You get the effective mosquito and tick repellency of deet and MGK 264, but you also get effective repellency of flies, gnats, no-see-ums, because of the R-326. By working together they each become more effective, last longer, and absorb less into the skin than straight deet formulas. A simple rule is to look for three names you cannot pronounce on the label and not just one. The only commercially available product using this technology is Sawyer Gold (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/sawyer.htm)
Lotions: The active ingredients in a repellent formula suspended in a lotion can be gentler to the skin, and up to 50% more effective than comparable sprays.
Sprays: For convenience, most repellents are applied in a spray format. Sprays usually use an alcohol base to carry and disperse the deet; however, alcohol promotes premature evaporation and in turn shortens the effective period of the protection. Alcohol can also open skin pores and promote deet absorption. Water based and low percentage alcohol formulas are better. These formulas work best on clothing but are only effective on skin for short periods. Non-Controlled Release formulas should be avoided if frequent re-applications are required such as for use on camping trips, or any time potential deet absorption is a concern.
Recent adverse publicity has left many people confused and concerned about the safety of deet. Although deet does not create a skin sensitivity, it is a skin irritant. This means that after a period of frequent and repeated use, your skin may become red or even sore to the touch. While your skin will recover between uses, each subsequent use could again display irritation. The amount of deet that can be used prior to developing skin irritation varies from person to person. The term sensitivity refers to the condition in which skin develops a resistance to the presence of a chemical and an allergic type reaction takes place if that chemical is present on the skin. Deet has been well studied and does not cause people to develop skin sensitivity, resistance, or allergic reaction to it. We recommend that your choice of deet products be kept below 35%. Those who recommend more may not be informed regarding the limited advantage and increased risk to self and gear associated with higher concentrations.
Some segments of the medical community have recently expressed concern over the amount of deet absorbed by the skin, especially in children. To date, absorption studies relating to deet indicate that the body releases the deet it absorbs. It is not something which can be defined exactly. However, literally billions of applications of deet occur annually, and deet has been in widespread use since 1954. There are no studies or clinical observations to suggest long-term dangers of deet when used properly and in accordance with label directions. With the new water-based (versus traditional alcohol-based) Sub MicronEncapsulation techniques usedin Sawyer Controlled Release formulas, the traditional concerns about exposure to deet are alleviated.


KNOWN ABSORPTION STUDIES OF DEET

To date, only two studies have been conducted regarding the skin absorption rate of deet:
The first was a series of studies conducted by the industry in Belgium in the mid-1980's. In all, eight human subjects were observed. It is from these studies that the generally accepted 4% to 8% absorption rate, which is often used by the medical community, was obtained. Due to the complexity of the study, not all deet applied could be accounted for, but based on a long history of animal studies conducted by manufacturers during the EPA approval process, it was concluded that none of the deet remains in the human body after 72 hours.
The second study was conducted in California in 1995 where deet was observed as part of a blend with R-11, a repellent similar to R-326, and MGK-264. In this study four human subjects were observed. The conclusion of the study was that when combined with these two larger molecules, the absorption rate of deet was reduced to a range of 3% to 6%. This represented a reduction in absorption of 25%. This blend is used in the Sawyer composites.




Permethrin Repellents
http://www.tickinfo.com/permethrin.htm (http://www.tickinfo.com/permethrin.htm)

The DOD Chemical Protection System:The Department of Defense (DoD) utilizes a system of two chemical components in conjunction with the field dress uniform. The EPA approved components of this system include the insecticide permethrin and the insect repellent deet (N, N-diethyl-m-tiluarnide) in concentrations less than 33%.
Note: Not all permethrin is blended for the purpose of bonding to fabric. Most permethrin is agricultural which is for pest control on vegetation. Its design purpose is to stick to plants thus protecting the plants. Veterinary products are designed to adhere to animal skins/hair or premises and are not for fabric application. Some permethrin is formulated for treatment of medical conditions such as head lice and scabies. The formulations are not interchangeable mostly because of solvents utilized. Always refer to manufacturers label and use instructions.
Permethrin is virtually non-toxic to humans and no systemic effects have been reported. In EPA and FDA tests, it was uncommon to have any skin reddening, rash or other irritation. When used as a repellent, permethrin is applied to exterior clothing where it dries and bonds to the cloth fiber. This water-based formula is non-staining, odorless and has exceptional resistance to degradation by sunlight (UV), heat and water. Although permethrin is approved for skin application under certain circumstances such as head lice formulas, it is not applied to skin as a repellent. Permethrin does not bond to skin (stick) and is quickly deactivated by skin's esterase action into inactive compounds. Because of these attributes permethrin offers no repellent benefit on skin. It is only effective when used as a clothing treatment. Deactivation of permethrin on skin occurs in approximately 20 minutes, When placed on clothing it will last 2 to 6 weeks (even up to 1 year with special application) and will even last through weekly launderings. With the long history of success permethrin has achieved, it is best not to second guess these extraordinary results. By following the directions provided on the product you can be assured of results that achieve protection at or near 100%. Any variation of instructions that indicate using less permethrin on clothing will result in diminished performance. Follow the direction exactly and you will be amazed at the performance of this product.
Permethrin Mosquito Tests:The early history of permethrin development involved tests on mosquitoes conducted by the US Army and Air Force. Tests showed that when lightweight uniforms were treated until moist (approximately 3ounces) the permethrin alone (0. 5%solution) gave 97.7%protection from mosquitoes and 99.9%protection when used in combination with deet (33%solution). Two detergent washings did not diminish mosquito repellent and killing action of permethrin-treated uniforms.
An interesting side note: The effectiveness of permethrin can be shown in the following report highlight that was reported in a very matter of fact statement. During testing in the Everglades, "Mosquitoes were also repelled because of the side-stream effect caused by numerous treated uniforms within the same general location. This required that the test site be moved to locate more mosquitoes!" Now that's performance . . .
Permethrin Tick Tests:Test on ticks conducted in Massachusetts concluded that 100% protection was provided against the Deer tick (Ixodes Scapularis) which is the primary vector of Lyme disease in the Midwest and Northeast. The same outstanding results occurred when testing the Western Black Legged tick, Lone Star tick, American Dog tick and Brown Dog tick. Similar results have been found with other tick species throughout the United States and Europe. Two detergent washings did not diminish repellent killing action of permethrin-treated uniforms. In tests, ticks that crossed only 10 inches of treated fabric fell from the uniform, later dying due to this limited exposure.
Note: Military application of permethrin (Permethrin Arthropod Repellent) varies from civilian application in that 4.5 ounces are applied to the uniform and the remaining contents of the 6 ounce container used to treat mosquito netting. The difference in application also results in increased protection. It is specified that "reapply after six weeks and sixth laundering." The additional 1.5 ounces doubled the 2 to 3 week protection realized from the civilian application of 3 ounces. Full protection is realized by use of permethrin AND application of standard issue repellent approved for skin application (3M Ultrathon)
DEET (N, N-.diethyl-m-tiluamide):is an approved repellent for skin application. Exposure to high concentrations of deet can pose some limited health hazards. At the time concentrations of 33%as provided in the 3M Ultrathon product were chosen by the U.S. Military for its superior performance and high margin of safety. Up until the 3M Ultrathon was chosen the military had been using a 100% deet. It was uncomfortable to wear and easily damaged certain materials synthetic and plastics. Since the 3M Ultrathon introduction, some new developments have been made using deet in special micro encapsulated formulas that have tested quite well and last up to 20 hours between applications against certain insect species. Deet-based products are available in a wide variety of formulas that can address the very specific needs of the individual traveler, outdoors person, family member and even young children. Specific blends with other repellents to repel biting flies are called composites, while others formulas have been added to sunscreen for convenient dual-purpose application.
Early research on deet showed that performance dropped off when concentrations of 35% or higher were tested. As an example, if a 30%deet concentration offers satisfactory repellent action for four hours, an assumption that a 60% deet would last eight hours is not correct. The 60% product may only last about 5 hours. In the use of standard deet formulas, it is more effective to use lower concentrations of deet with more frequent application than to assume the higher concentrations to be longer lasting. They are not. Most brand-name deet-based products already have a deet range from 15%to 33%.Once the threat of insect/tick bite is over, the repellent should be washed off. Deet by itself tested between 85%to 89%effective at repelling ticks (deet does not kill either ticks or mosquitoes) and 97% against mosquitoes.
The DoD system consists of both permethrin treated clothing and deet applied to skin. The use of one without the other will undermine the system and increase the risk of insect or tick bite. Many non-deet products are available on the market and are not part of the DoD protection system. They show ineffective repellent performance and are not recommended for any situation where disease transmission is a threat.

sofaking
05-11-2008, 22:53
i heard wearing a hemp necklace and patchouli oil will keep bugs away...

Bob S
05-11-2008, 23:31
i heard wearing a hemp necklace and patchouli oil will keep bugs away...
And you can also light up the necklace and smoke it…

theinfamousj
05-11-2008, 23:34
Anyone ever try "Skin So Soft?" It was popular quite a few years ago. I tried it a few times with some success . . . sure smelled better. But on the Long Trail in Vermont I got eaten alive with it and have
never used it since . . . Aunt Velma lied to me! :D :p

Yep. Mom swore by it and used to slather us with it, whether we wanted to or not. I was always eaten alive.

I did better off without the sweet smelling oily stuff on me.

I've heard that that bug repellent effects are an Avon marketing point.

@ OP -- If you don't like DEET (better living through chemistry), try coating yourself in woodsmoke. I always make sure I sit right in the smoke of the campfire the first night (holding breath, closing eyes tightly) until I have a delightfully smoked scent. On the last camping trip, I picked up only one tick, to my fellow campers 6 and 8. (No DEET involved.)

Appalachian Tater
05-12-2008, 00:54
Avon now sells that lotion with real bug-repellent in it, but it's not DEET, rather something I can't pronounce. http://shop.avon.com/shopc/product.asp?pf_id=7894&from=search&find_spec=%20skin%20so%20soft%20repellant&camp=200811&dir_delivery=1&rep_delivery=1

Heater
05-12-2008, 03:14
Yep. Mom swore by it and used to slather us with it, whether we wanted to or not. I was always eaten alive.

I did better off without the sweet smelling oily stuff on me.

I've heard that that bug repellent effects are an Avon marketing point.

@ OP -- If you don't like DEET (better living through chemistry), try coating yourself in woodsmoke. I always make sure I sit right in the smoke of the campfire the first night (holding breath, closing eyes tightly) until I have a delightfully smoked scent. On the last camping trip, I picked up only one tick, to my fellow campers 6 and 8. (No DEET involved.)

I wonder if "liquid smoke" would work. That would finally make a good use for that disgusting product! :)

http://img.timeinc.net/cooking/flavorprofiles/bbq_smoke_seasoning_m.jpg

chili36
05-12-2008, 10:25
Permanone on your clothes, gatiers and boots.

DEET direct to the body.

Bear Cables
05-12-2008, 13:41
Add sulpher to the list for tick country.

You can make a blend of sulpher powder mixed with baby powder for the chiggers. Just dust the tops of you socks and around the bands of shorts or underware. Not sure how effective it is for ticks but maybe a parasite is a parasite.

Blissful
05-12-2008, 13:58
DEET's the only thing that works on MA bugs.

I got eaten alive at Harpers Ferry along the canal with that natural stuff (can't think what it had in it. Citronella or something?). The deerflies were not impressed. Back to DEET.

take-a-knee
05-12-2008, 14:40
You can make a blend of sulpher powder mixed with baby powder for the chiggers. Just dust the tops of you socks and around the bands of shorts or underware. Not sure how effective it is for ticks but maybe a parasite is a parasite.

It is extremely effective against ticks and chiggers (they are arthropods, not insects). I spent several days at the end of may in the piney woods of Ft. Bragg NC slithering along the ground like a snake. I didn't get a single tick or chigger bite. Those in my class that didn't use the sulphur got wrapped up with them.

Summit
05-12-2008, 17:59
but at least you smelled soft and sweet...He he, actually that was in my younger, single days and a gorgeous young lady came up while I was sitting on a shelter picnic table. She apparently got a whiff of my Skin So Soft and said you smell good, and came up very close to me, you know, like in my personal space . . . kinda uncomfortably close for chatting as strangers, but she was so purty that I didn't mind!

sofaking
05-12-2008, 18:36
i'm going to start using sss!

chili36
05-13-2008, 10:30
It is extremely effective against ticks and chiggers (they are arthropods, not insects).


Actually, a chigger is the larval form of the clover mite. Both ticks and mites (chiggers) are in the class Arachnida.

The Phylum Arthropoda is divided into five Classes, two or which are Arachnida and Insecta.

Berserker
05-13-2008, 13:04
One repellant that hasn't been mentioned yet is picaridin. Cutter makes a repellant with this stuff in it. It works pretty good on mosquitoes and flies, and is not as nasty as DEET. It actually has a sweet smell. I have used DEET, and it irritates my skin. It can also break down certain fabrics like sil-nylon, so it is good not to get it on gear. I believe the picaridin will not deteriorate fabrics in the same manner.

For ticks, I have only found permithrin (Permanone is an example) sprayed on the clothing to be effective. I am quite paranoid about those little turds, and I come in contact with them fairly regularly around here. I really can't stand the little tiny ones (seed ticks?) that are about the size of the period on this sentence. Anyway, I do the Permanone on my boots and gaiters.

sofaking
05-13-2008, 13:09
One repellant that hasn't been mentioned yet is picaridin. Cutter makes a repellant with this stuff in it. It works pretty good on mosquitoes and flies, and is not as nasty as DEET. It actually has a sweet smell. I have used DEET, and it irritates my skin. It can also break down certain fabrics like sil-nylon, so it is good not to get it on gear. I believe the picaridin will not deteriorate fabrics in the same manner.

For ticks, I have only found permithrin (Permanone is an example) sprayed on the clothing to be effective. I am quite paranoid about those little turds, and I come in contact with them fairly regularly around here. I really can't stand the little tiny ones (seed ticks?) that are about the size of the period on this sentence. Anyway, I do the Permanone on my boots and gaiters.
that cutter crap is what i posted about earlier! picaridin... WILL NOT work against ticks. utterly useless...thanks for helping clear this up for me, i couldn't remember what that garbage was called.

Bob S
05-13-2008, 13:55
Picaridin is junk, it did not give (the 15% stuff) me more then a few min protection My X-wife came to the same conclusion when she used it on her kids.


Here is some information on it that supports the fact it doesn’t work.






Cutter Advanced Insect Repellent



http://www.buggspray.com/picaridin.html



We do plenty of testing on our products and the competition (to make sure our stuff is still the best). When something new comes out, we'll try it, make some notes, and keep the results to ourselves.

Normally, we do not like to disparage anyone's product but sometimes we need to provide the facts. Because the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) has come out in support of Picaridin as an alternative to DEET, we'll make a few comments, in addition to our press release (http://www.buggspray.com/news-2005.html#anchor5919339).

In our field testing, Cutter Advanced Insect Repellent with 7% Picaridin provided less than 15 minutes protection from only a handful of mosquitoes (<20) on several individuals around a campfire. This test was performed on June 10, 2005 just after dusk near McGregor, Minnesota (Big Sandy Lake). We thought, OK, that's fine. The stuff isn't that great and ours is much better. People will try this new Cutter once and never use it again.

BUT, when we saw this (below), we had to say something. The young man was at Boy Scout camp near Longville, Minnesota the last week in July, 2005. He was literally soaking himself with Cutter Advanced to try and stop the mosquitoes from biting his lower legs. His brother had the same problem. They commented, "That stuff was like water. It did absolutely nothing to stop them!" After a couple days, the poor kid resorted to long jeans and hiking boots in 90+ degree heat to protect himself. His mother was appalled - she had done the research, heard the press reports, and thought he was going to be fine.

take-a-knee
05-13-2008, 15:22
Actually, a chigger is the larval form of the clover mite. Both ticks and mites (chiggers) are in the class Arachnida.

The Phylum Arthropoda is divided into five Classes, two or which are Arachnida and Insecta.

Thanks, I'll try to keep it straight.

RadioFreq
05-13-2008, 15:40
So are you going to brew some beer or kill some bugs on your next hike? :D :p

Why not both? Then it fills the UL backpacker's creed of all things having "dual purpose." :-? :D

chili36
05-13-2008, 18:41
IMHO, Permanone has been the most effective thing I have used against the "crawlers".

We regularly use a wide assortment of pyrethrums in our business so I am constantly evaluating new products. However, since I started using Permanone, I haven't had a chigger (five years) and maybe one or two ticks in that same time frame.

As with the "flyers", I am sticking with DEET. Nothing I have tried is as effective as Permanone is against the crawlers, however, DEET (at a high concentration, and I use 100%) seems to work the best. There is a lot of scientific discussion about it's safety, but I haven't seen anything to convince me it is going to kill me the few times a year I use it.

Summit
05-13-2008, 22:04
From the "Annals of Internal Medicine:

Extended-release formulations of DEET have made it possible to reduce the repellent concentration without sacrificing duration of action. When tested under laboratory and several different environmental and climatic field conditions, the 35% DEET polymer formulation by the 3M Corporation was as effective as 75% DEET in repelling mosquitoes. The polymer formulation provided up to 12 hours of more than 95% protection, depending on the environmental conditions and species of mosquito tested. Given that high concentration DEET results in much higher levels of absorption into the blood stream (a bad thing), I prefer to go with the Extended-release formulas. ;)

EarlyBird2007
05-14-2008, 06:14
I am hiking for a week on the AT starting in Demascus in mid July, does anyone have any ways to keep off the bugs (like mosquitos, etc) and ticks/chiggers. I tried using DEET but it was a bit too oily for me. If you do know of something, where can I get it at? Thank you SOOOOOO much!:banana
For ticks & chiggers, I'd use Permethrin spray on your clothes. I used it during my 2007 thru and had no problems with them. One caution - follow the application instructions carefully. If used wrong, it can cause problems. For skeeters, etc., use a good insect repellant. There are some that are not that oily. Also consider a head net.

chili36
05-14-2008, 19:50
From the "Annals of Internal Medicine:
Given that high concentration DEET results in much higher levels of absorption into the blood stream (a bad thing), I prefer to go with the Extended-release formulas. ;)


That is good information, I will check into this more fully. Thanks.

boarstone
05-14-2008, 20:43
For those who may be interested...BLACKFLIES HAVE LANDED in Piscatiquis county in force! (Maine):D