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sloopjonboswell
05-11-2008, 02:26
anybody wanna talk about it?

sofaking
05-11-2008, 02:29
isn't that what it's for?

Captain
05-11-2008, 03:06
what is escapism

take-a-knee
05-11-2008, 06:20
Just read the original version of Colin Fletcher's Complete Walker. He addressed it much better than most of us here could.

Lone Wolf
05-11-2008, 07:02
what is escapism

yeah, really :-?

Marta
05-11-2008, 07:56
The trail can be an escape from regular life; but for a lot of people, regular life soon becomes much more attractive after a stint on the trail.

Trail life and town life complement each other nicely.

warren doyle
05-11-2008, 08:57
Escaping to? or escaping from?

Tipi Walter
05-11-2008, 09:17
For hundreds of thousands of years humans lived outdoors, hiked everywhere, slept in crude shelters and formulated intricate views regarding nature and their relationship with nature. You're wrong to think getting off the grid and out of the syphilized cities and into the woods is escapism, it's the other way around. Leaving the woods for the mad marts of men is escapism, embracing what we consider to be 'a higher standard of living' and brainwashed with the propaganda of 'progress' to me constitutes escapism.

Narwhalin
05-11-2008, 10:11
For hundreds of thousands of years humans lived outdoors, hiked everywhere, slept in crude shelters and formulated intricate views regarding nature and their relationship with nature. You're wrong to think getting off the grid and out of the syphilized cities and into the woods is escapism, it's the other way around. Leaving the woods for the mad marts of men is escapism, embracing what we consider to be 'a higher standard of living' and brainwashed with the propaganda of 'progress' to me constitutes escapism.

Wow. Well put.

Wise Old Owl
05-11-2008, 10:17
For me its escape to - To find untouched areas of man in the wilderness of touched area's of God. To see nature in its glory without the zoo. What most people experience god in a wooden box with a steeple, I find in the woods high on a mountaintop. It might take me a few days of journey to get there, but the road isn't littered with stuck cars running out of gas on the highway to heaven.

Thank you Tipi Walter!

sasquatch2014
05-11-2008, 10:17
While getting out to the trail allows me to escape the day to day trappings of my normal life it runs me right into the face of my own self. By this I mean that the time on the trail is often a time of reflection and solitude. Interupted at times with other hikers but I am mainly left to myself with my thoughts and where ever these may tend to wander. Sometimes this can be a tough company to keep and other times it is the best friend in the world. I am luck that I am comfortable enough with my own company but I can conceed that this may not be the case for others and getting back to all the distractions of the real world is a good way to escape this looking glass.

4eyedbuzzard
05-11-2008, 10:54
For hundreds of thousands of years humans lived outdoors, hiked everywhere, slept in crude shelters and formulated intricate views regarding nature and their relationship with nature. You're wrong to think getting off the grid and out of the syphilized cities and into the woods is escapism, it's the other way around. Leaving the woods for the mad marts of men is escapism, embracing what we consider to be 'a higher standard of living' and brainwashed with the propaganda of 'progress' to me constitutes escapism.

I absolutely do not agree that technological and cultural progress is worse than what preceeded it. I think we are very lucky to be able to choose to escape or not to almost wherever we want, and to enjoy modern conveniences both on and off the trail. I don't think the trappings of modern society are all bad. Just a little over 100 years ago there were few of the comforts we take for granted. Life was much more of a daily survival struggle, both in the cities and in the woods. Clean water, indoor plumbing, refrigeration, medicine, longer life expectancy... the good list goes on and on. Without the products of "wicked" industrialization(like nylon, metals, plastics, etc), most of us would never have either the time or technological products to enjoy the woods. We'd likely be busy working the fields, out on the fishing boat, tending the stock, etc. Life was much harder years ago. We have it easy by comparison.

Its good that MacKaye, Muir, and all the others recognized the need to preserve some wilderness settings for us to recreate in.

Tipi Walter
05-11-2008, 11:16
I absolutely do not agree that technological and cultural progress is worse than what preceeded it. I think we are very lucky to be able to choose to escape or not to almost wherever we want, and to enjoy modern conveniences both on and off the trail. I don't think the trappings of modern society are all bad. Just a little over 100 years ago there were few of the comforts we take for granted. Life was much more of a daily survival struggle, both in the cities and in the woods. Clean water, indoor plumbing, refrigeration, medicine, longer life expectancy... the good list goes on and on. Without the products of "wicked" industrialization(like nylon, metals, plastics, etc), most of us would never have either the time or technological products to enjoy the woods. We'd likely be busy working the fields, out on the fishing boat, tending the stock, etc. Life was much harder years ago. We have it easy by comparison.

Its good that MacKaye, Muir, and all the others recognized the need to preserve some wilderness settings for us to recreate in.

If life is so much better today, why is there a need to preserve wilderness? Some would say a drastic need? How could life be better when there is less and less wilderness? You also hint that our good and easy modernity comes at the sacrifice of wilderness when you mention MacKaye and Muir trying to preserve wilderness. Preserve it from what? Humans?

You also say that w/o the products of industrialization, most of us would hardly get to enjoy the woods. I'll repeat myself: For hundreds of thousands of years humans lived outdoors, hiked everywhere, etc(i.e. before industrialization). So, how has industry now allowed us to enjoy the woods more than before? It seems we've been doing so since the beginning.

rafe
05-11-2008, 11:24
The difference, Tipi, is that back in the old days when folks trekked, by foot, from point A to point B, they did it because they needed to -- they didn't call it "hiking."

I do regret that modern life has ravaged the wilderness and disconnected us from it. That's a shame. But I also appreciate the benefits of modern (western) life -- eg., relative freedom from hunger, pain, disease, etc. It's not all bad. But we would do well to consider (or reconsider) the balance.

I don't see cities and civilization as all bad. We wouldn't be having this conversation without it. Without advances in medicine over the last 50-100 years, some or most of us would have succumbed to injury, illness or disease by now.

4eyedbuzzard
05-11-2008, 11:56
First off, humans like us(anatomically modern, aka Cro-Magnon) have only been around for some 50 thousand years or so - not hundreds of thousands as you suggest. And early on it appears that as a species we began forming complex societies, manipulating and controlling our environment, dividing labor, etc. Roughly 10 - 15 thousand years ago agriculture began to dominate our species way of life, replacing the wandering hunter-gatherer-scavenger mode of survival. Larger more complex civilizations evolved, and the rest is pretty much just history. Civilization and technology flourishes because it is more efficient for the species and better utilizes the carrying capacity of the local ecosystem - it is inevitable. Life always chooses efficiency.

That you do not personally care for modern industrial society and would prefer to wander and "live off the land" is your personal choice, and not one truly shared by many others. The natural state of man is not that of a hunter-gatherer-scavenger. The true natural state is that that of a social being that forms complex societies and utilizes it's environment. The proof of this is that it happened and exists. We are exactly as we were destined to become, no more - no less.

A primitive, simplistic life is a nice romantic notion - but it is ultimately an escape from working toward solving the problems of the world we are born into. It just isn't a realistic solution on the whole - it's simply selfish avoidance/escape. Yes, there are a lot of problems in present society. But historically all societies have had problems. Our's are just specific to our place and time in history. Escaping is fine for a duration, but humans simply cannot all run from the society into which they are born. It just isn't realistic.

dessertrat
05-11-2008, 12:04
While getting out to the trail allows me to escape the day to day trappings of my normal life it runs me right into the face of my own self. By this I mean that the time on the trail is often a time of reflection and solitude. Interupted at times with other hikers but I am mainly left to myself with my thoughts and where ever these may tend to wander. Sometimes this can be a tough company to keep and other times it is the best friend in the world. I am luck that I am comfortable enough with my own company but I can conceed that this may not be the case for others and getting back to all the distractions of the real world is a good way to escape this looking glass.

Well put. I feel much the same. I almost always hike alone, not just for convenience, but for this reason.

d'shadow
05-11-2008, 12:28
evil modern technology...:-?...sure, give up goretex, high tech hiking equipment...go back to cotton and wool products, leather boots...canvas back packs...yeah, good idea....:rolleyes:

sofaking
05-11-2008, 12:29
evil modern technology...:-?...sure, give up goretex, high tech hiking equipment...go back to cotton and wool products, leather boots...canvas back packs...yeah, good idea....:rolleyes:
yeah, 'cause none of that stuff worked?

sofaking
05-11-2008, 12:30
i wonder how people like hillary and shackelton hid their gore-tex for so long...

d'shadow
05-11-2008, 13:36
yeah, 'cause none of that stuff worked?


Tell ya what, you get into the old gear and go for a hike..when you get back, tell me which type of gear you prefer. I will take goretex and modern gear over what we used to use any day and twice on Sunday. Different strokes for different folks

sofaking
05-11-2008, 13:42
Tell ya what, you get into the old gear and go for a hike..when you get back, tell me which type of gear you prefer. I will take goretex and modern gear over what we used to use any day and twice on Sunday. Different strokes for different folks
it's not a point of personal preference. i was trying to point out that men have been going 'outside' regardless of the technological limits of the gear at any time. all that stuff was cutting edge in its day.

4eyedbuzzard
05-11-2008, 13:46
evil modern technology...:-?...sure, give up goretex, high tech hiking equipment...go back to cotton and wool products, leather boots...canvas back packs...yeah, good idea....:rolleyes:

Cotton, wool, and canvas were the evils of society when they were the best available - especially later when they were made in large textile mills. In Walden, Thoreau used the train as the symbol for the the evil encroachment of civilization. If he wrote today he might well use the car or airplane or cell phone. But he also took the trappings of his society with him to the cabin - pots, pans, clothing, blankets, seeds, tools, etc. Some tribes of Native Americans lived very close to the land as late as the 1800's, but they were more than happy to trade their "natural" products for manufactured metal pots, beads, knives, guns, etc.

Different times, same hypocrisy: Complain about society ruining life all the while choosing and benefitting from using its trappings.

T-Dubs
05-11-2008, 14:58
The natural state of man is not that of a hunter-gatherer-scavenger.

For 3 million years* humaniods/humans were just that: hunter/gatherer societies. Civilization based on grains and domestic animals is both relatively new and unhealthy for us.

A book to allow some insight into the problems of this lifestyle would be:
http://www.amazon.com/Against-Grain-Agriculture-Hijacked-Civilization/dp/0865476225

It's a fairly easy read and does get one to think about the problems caused by grain-based economies/diets.

TWS

*for those who rely on Oct. 22, 2002 BC at 6:00pm; a Saturday as the moment of Creation I'll just add this disclaimer (spoken in the voice of Ned Flanders)
"Well Marge, if manners are old-fashioned just consider me a caveman....if they ever existed--which they didn't!"

d'shadow
05-11-2008, 15:19
Cotton, wool, and canvas were the evils of society when they were the best available - especially later when they were made in large textile mills. In Walden, Thoreau used the train as the symbol for the the evil encroachment of civilization. If he wrote today he might well use the car or airplane or cell phone. But he also took the trappings of his society with him to the cabin - pots, pans, clothing, blankets, seeds, tools, etc. Some tribes of Native Americans lived very close to the land as late as the 1800's, but they were more than happy to trade their "natural" products for manufactured metal pots, beads, knives, guns, etc.

Different times, same hypocrisy: Complain about society ruining life all the while choosing and benefitting from using its trappings.


BINGO, You just said it all, and so well. thank you!:banana

nitewalker
05-11-2008, 15:23
it is what it is.. if you need nature for the reason of escaping modern society then god bless you and escape the everday buzz.. if your reason is to go out and enjoy a hike in the woods without the reason of escaping something then so be it..i do agree that walking thru nature helps ease some of the immediate stress but most of us always end up back at where we left..enjoy the woods while you are in it because it is your time to relax your worried minds...escape to the woods and let nature take its course. give me a bag,tent,backpack and plenty of forest and i am rite at home...

sasquatch2014
05-11-2008, 20:36
Cotton, wool, and canvas were the evils of society when they were the best available - especially later when they were made in large textile mills. In Walden, Thoreau used the train as the symbol for the the evil encroachment of civilization. If he wrote today he might well use the car or airplane or cell phone. But he also took the trappings of his society with him to the cabin - pots, pans, clothing, blankets, seeds, tools, etc. Some tribes of Native Americans lived very close to the land as late as the 1800's, but they were more than happy to trade their "natural" products for manufactured metal pots, beads, knives, guns, etc.

Different times, same hypocrisy: Complain about society ruining life all the while choosing and benefitting from using its trappings.

this was the original "reality TV" spin. While his writings made it sound like he was so far out there he was almost right on the edge of town. I might as well say I am going into the back yard to live more deliberately. He's a great writer its about the spin and getting the reader to follow you where you choose to take them true or not.

As far as the modern world or the old world being better or easier its is almost impossible to say as the paradigm is shifted once one has experienced it. This is far from a new concept Plato pointed this out with his parable of the cave.

4eyedbuzzard
05-11-2008, 22:32
For 3 million years* humaniods/humans were just that: hunter/gatherer societies. Civilization based on grains and domestic animals is both relatively new and unhealthy for us.

A book to allow some insight into the problems of this lifestyle would be:
http://www.amazon.com/Against-Grain-Agriculture-Hijacked-Civilization/dp/0865476225

It's a fairly easy read and does get one to think about the problems caused by grain-based economies/diets.

TWS

*for those who rely on Oct. 22, 2002 BC at 6:00pm; a Saturday as the moment of Creation I'll just add this disclaimer (spoken in the voice of Ned Flanders)
"Well Marge, if manners are old-fashioned just consider me a caveman....if they ever existed--which they didn't!"

Ah, the good old days - of essentially living like a scavenging animal and dying by age 40.:rolleyes: I would argue that proto-humans/humanoids prior to about 50,000 years ago were just that - precursors to modern humans. I cannot agree that we should live as little more than wandering wild scavengers. Nor would it ever happen. We have evolved as a part of and within nature to our current place. The arguments against it are moot.

sofaking
05-11-2008, 22:34
i'm going to be a ninja when i grow up.

Mags
05-11-2008, 22:40
Tell ya what, you get into the old gear and go for a hike..when you get back, tell me which type of gear you prefer.


I ski tour in leather boots, wool socks and underwear, wool pants and a wool sweater. For cold, dry conditions (like, I dunno winter in Colorado) I found wool works well. I actually prefer wool to the nylon, plastic, etc for winter use.


Having said that, I prefer my 40 hr work weeks, affordable food, good medical care,leisure time, etc. Most of which, my recent ancestors did not even have.

Finally, Warren, you brought up a point that made me smile. I told a woman I recently dated that same line when she asked "What are you escaping from ??!?!"

I replied, "I am escaping to something, not away from something".


I think many of us feel that way.

kolokolo
05-11-2008, 22:51
I agree with 4eyedbuzzard - life in the 'good old days' of hunter/gatherers was short and painful.

I'll keep my lightweight backpack and equipment, my pharmaceuticals, and my powerbars. The enjoyment of hiking for me comes from the solitude, the encounters with creatures in their natural habitats, and achieving the goal of climbing a mountain or moving from place to place.

sofaking
05-11-2008, 22:54
or maybe a pirate...

Bob S
05-11-2008, 23:23
or maybe a pirate...
Should we call you Peg-leg Sofa??? :D

sofaking
05-11-2008, 23:25
Should we call you Peg-leg Sofa??? :D
maybe sofaking sea sick...

Tinker
05-11-2008, 23:44
anybody wanna talk about it?

Well, not really, no.

sasquatch2014
05-12-2008, 07:42
I agree with 4eyedbuzzard - life in the 'good old days' of hunter/gatherers was short and painful.

I'll keep my lightweight backpack and equipment, my pharmaceuticals, and my powerbars. The enjoyment of hiking for me comes from the solitude, the encounters with creatures in their natural habitats, and achieving the goal of climbing a mountain or moving from place to place.

Yes the wonders of the more modern world where now you can work until you are in your 60's or later to find out that most of the money you have socked away is wiped out with ever increasing taxes and raising prices and then sub-cum to some long painful debilitating sickness and die a slow lingering death. I don't know short and painful doesn't sound so bad.

Sorry its Monday and I am having to get the kids off to school so I guess maybe its best to ignore this. It's like making decisions when going uphill and wet best to wait on it.:D

MOWGLI
05-12-2008, 07:52
I replied, "I am escaping to something, not away from something".


I think many of us feel that way.

Bingo!!!

skinny minnie
05-12-2008, 09:50
Well... I feel as though I am escaping from many things. From the mundane burdens of everyday life: bills, time clocks, gossip, television, consumerism, office politics, even the burden of your own appearance. You are out in the woods - none of these things matter any more. I get so tired of the significance our society places on insignificant things. For me, this is absolutely an escape from all of that.

I love being in a place where all that matters is planting one foot in front of the other. And where listening, you only hear the sounds of trees, rocks, wind, water, and animals.

4eyedbuzzard
05-12-2008, 10:40
Yes the wonders of the more modern world where now you can work until you are in your 60's...

At least most of us now live into our '60's.


...or later to find out that most of the money you have socked away is wiped out with ever increasing taxes and raising prices and then sub-cum to some long painful debilitating sickness and die a slow lingering death. I don't know short and painful doesn't sound so bad.

Optimism will get you no sympathy here. :D

flemdawg1
05-12-2008, 11:36
Does anyone else see the irony of debating the evils of modern society on an internet message board. If modern society is so bad, what are you doing on a computer!?

Wise Old Owl
05-12-2008, 11:40
What was this thread about - Oh yea escape.... possible escape from well dressed Trolls in cotton underpants hunting fox & climbing mountains hundreds of years ago and now using laptops. - Where is this all going????? <Insert useless smiley here>

Grin Grin

Jason of the Woods
05-12-2008, 11:46
And getting off the trail, even if for a short time, really sucks.;)

weary
05-12-2008, 11:49
evil modern technology...:-?...sure, give up goretex, high tech hiking equipment...go back to cotton and wool products, leather boots...canvas back packs...yeah, good idea....:rolleyes:
You mean they don't use wool, cotton and leather any more? Wow.

weary
05-12-2008, 11:59
this was the original "reality TV" spin. While his writings made it sound like he was so far out there he was almost right on the edge of town. I might as well say I am going into the back yard to live more deliberately. .....
Not quite true. Walden describes the location of his house pretty accurately. He did in Walden and other writings describe long walks to wilder places in Concord and the surrounding towns -- and north and west to mountain areas including Katahdin and the wild rivers of north central Maine.

Weary

Wise Old Owl
05-12-2008, 11:59
Yup Weary, and the photo is just as disturbingly cheeky! I can't post it because they would lock the thread.

weary
05-12-2008, 12:06
Does anyone else see the irony of debating the evils of modern society on an internet message board. If modern society is so bad, what are you doing on a computer!?
To escape, of course!

Weary

superman
05-12-2008, 13:21
Going to the woods, work, hiking, heavy looking on with a propensity to gawk, mowing my lawn...etc, etc are all just facets of my life. The things that I choose to include in my life are only that which is held onto. The other things are not done, not done again. It's not escaping to or from anything, it's only another facet of my life that I choose to keep doing until I choose otherwise. Doen this or doen that is just another day in the life of...

sloopjonboswell
05-12-2008, 21:40
retreating from unpleasant realities. -escapism. i guess not everybody goes to the woods for the same reasons.

Wise Old Owl
05-12-2008, 23:34
OK I tried to come up with something deep, and end up looking at all the little fish above in the shallows. Whatever.

OwlsRevenge
05-13-2008, 14:57
4eyedbuzzard is wise.

High Life
05-21-2008, 12:40
what makes me want to do the AT again ? escape the drinker , the **** whole that is boston ?