The ATC, Evil? Misguided or misunderstood by me.

[Doctari]

After my latest section hike & combining my impressions from my previous hikes, I have come to believe that the ATC "Mission" is not as stated on their web site:

"The Appalachian Trail Conservancy is a volunteer-based, private nonprofit organization dedicated to the conservation of the 2,175-mile Appalachian National Scenic Trail, a 250,000-acre greenway extending from Maine to Georgia. Our mission is to ensure that future generations will enjoy the clean air and water, scenic vistas, wildlife and opportunities for simple recreation and renewal along the entire Trail corridor.
Formerly known as the Appalachian Trail Conference, the ATC is an 80-year-old organization whose roots are traced to the vision of Benton MacKaye, who convened and organized the first Appalachian Trail "conference" – a gathering of hikers, foresters and public officials – in Washington, D.C., in 1925. Today, we work with the National Park Service Appalachian Trail Park Office, 30 maintaining clubs and multiple other partners to engage the public in conserving this essential American resource."

But is an evil organization whose SOLE purpose is to cause misery to hikers.
My "evidence":
Nearly 1/2 of the shelters I have seen faced INTO the prevailing wind, when an easier construction site is on the other side of the AT, or just a few hundred feet up/down trail.
For no apparent reason, the trail will veer off a well graded, scenic route to go straight up a dangerously rocky & STEEP hill, just to go up that hill, No views, Nothing of interest AT ALL atop this waterless dirt clod, then 2 or 3 miles later the AT rejoins the nice trail, usually less that 200 yards from where it left.
Often, the AT will veer to go over a (literal) pile of rocks, rocks that seem to be placed there to twist ankles, wrench knees, & bruise or brake hikers, with EASY ground 10 feet to the right or left, or BOTH!!
THE AT TOTALLY PASSES UP THE BEAUTIFUL EASY TO WALK VIRGINIA CREEPER TRAIL!! AND, the creeper has amenities, not many, but the scenery is fantastic (there is minimal on the AT thru that area) ample water & a really great restaurant about the halfway mark between Damascus & the Lost Mt shelter.

Oh, yes, there are sections where the maintainer apparently defies ATC policy & the route is great. And I must say the maintainers do try to do well with what they got.

Sure, the various clubs do have "control" over their sections, but if the troops mess up during a battle, it is the generals fault, the ATC is the general, so they are responsible.

Am I being overly critical?
If I am right, is there anything we can do about it??

I feel the ATC is totally out of touch with what hikers want & need or simply doesn’t care, or worse is actively trying to be cruel. After all, look at what they did to Earl Schaffer. Inexcusable!!

[sofaking]

stay off the a.t. and go hike somewhere else. or join a club or volunteer with a maintenance crew, then you might get some insight as to the where/why of trail conditions and routing.

[Cabin Fever]

stay off the a.t. and go hike somewhere else. or join a club or volunteer with a maintenance crew, then you might get some insight as to the where/why of trail conditions and routing.

Amen. If you don't like going up and down mountains, go to Florida. Until you have swung a pulaski, shut your mouth.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

I hear what you are saying, Doctari, and I mostly agree with you.

[humunuku]

if you want to hike lets say the creeper, then take the creeper detour. its you hike, take the trail that appeals to you, and if that make you happiest, then you made the right choice. If the trail is not what you want, then go do what you want.

[Hooch]

......Until you have swung a pulaski, shut your mouth.Being a little harsh aren't you? Whether you, I or anyone else like it, the man's not only entitled to his opinion, but to make it known. Cut him some slack, man.

[Cookerhiker]

There are some harder-than-need be stretches but IMO, they're not prevalent throughout the entire 2,175 miles.

But moreover, I think you're placing too much blame on the ATC vis-a-vis the clubs. I don't believe the relationship is akin to ATC being a "general" in that they can't dictate to the clubs as a general can dictate to subordinates.

[max patch]

THE AT TOTALLY PASSES UP THE BEAUTIFUL EASY TO WALK VIRGINIA CREEPER TRAIL!! AND, the creeper has amenities, not many, but the scenery is fantastic (there is minimal on the AT thru that area) ample water & a really great restaurant about the halfway mark between Damascus & the Lost Mt shelter.


The Creeper is a busy bike trail and thus incompatible with the A.T. so I don't have a problem with the route the A.T. takes.

[SGT Rock]

Well I hate to say it, but I have to go with misunderstand. Talking to local trail maintainers about routing and such - local clubs and land managers decide on routing and shelter locations. Not the ATC. This is why you can practically tell by how shelters are built or the add ons that exist what club's area you are in.

I'll say that I had a many hour conversation with Bob Peoples about all this. The local club lays out the route, then the ATC gets a look at it. But then the local land manager takes a few turns at inspecting the route in multiple seasons and then moves the markers as they see fit if they even approve the route. This part takes about 3 years per Bob. So the real "blame" about routing is on the local clubs and the local forest service.

Now sometimes those routes were picked for a reason local to the land manager or for the club's purpose. Sometimes they don't make sense, and sometimes thy just don't make sense unless you were in on the process.

As to shelters - well there are some general guidelines from the ATC about "try to make them not visible from the trail" and "try to face it to the east". But this is up to the local maintainer club and the local land manager again. For example: Mountaineer Shelter. It was actually supposed to go somewhere else. The ATC inspected that spot and "approved" it, then the NFS did it's thing. Archeology OK, Winter biology OK, Fall Biology OK, Spring Biology - Opps, a rare form of grass was on the spot. They then directed it to the spot it is on now. The club got it in as close to standard as possible in the same general area.

So really, the ATC could care less about inconveniencing hikers. They protect the trail corridor and coordinate the local clubs working together. They also get grants and farm them out to the local clubs.

So if there is a problem with a route or a shelter, or whatever - it is the local clubs.

[Doctari]

OK, I may have spouted a bit too much without toatlly considering all my words. Understand I don't have any complaints about those that maintain, & yes I have done maint, so know the work involved. MY complaint is the mindless routing that goes on. You tell me: Why the f does the trail swerve 15 feet off a nice dirt path to go over a dangerous pile of rocks. I probably understand not using the VC, but if you have hiked ANY of the AT you know as well as I there are COUNTLESS times the AT goes 2 - 3 miles out of the way just to go over some d*** hill with No views, No water, No historical interest, then rejoins the "good trail" a short distance away, YOU tell me: WHY? To show that area has hills? Yea, I get it, it's mountains, I DO like hiking in the mountains, THAT IS NOT MY POINT!! :mad:
Show me I'm wrong, if you can, don't just tell me that you know better cause you did a tiny bit of maininence one day. As I said, there are some sections where youcan see that the person(s) who take care of that area take the AT thru interesting terrain WITHOUT the MUDS & PUDS, altho you can still see where their Predecessor(s) had no problem going up a pointless / mindless hill.

To throw it back at you Sofa king & twoby: Prove me wrong or "shut up"!!

edit:
This post was typed as others did just that. Thanks for the detailed explination Rock. It's a defense of the ATC I suppose, but as they seem to have final say,,,,,,, But then, you did say"So really, the ATC could care less about inconveniencing hikers. They protect the trail corridor and coordinate the local clubs working together. They also get grants and farm them out to the local clubs." & that does make sense. So mayhaps I was cussing the group, & it was the 'individual". I am still mad, but I think I can let it go now. Thanks again to the smart replies.

[Lugnut]

Rumor has it that some local clubs pride themselves in the fact that their section is harder than anothers. Maybe Vermont.

[max patch]

Now sometimes those routes were picked for a reason local to the land manager or for the club's purpose. Sometimes they don't make sense, and sometimes thy just don't make sense unless you were in on the process.



I sure wish there was a historical record of relos and why they were done. As you said, some of them don't make sense without knowing all the facts.

For example, you can start at the beginning of the trail at Springer. The original trail off of Springer is superior -- in my opinion -- to its current route. Why was it changed? I "think" I know, but its just a guess.

[SGT Rock]

I don't have that much history to remember any other route off Springer. Is it the route the BMT now uses? The BMT has taken over the old AT route in a couple of places along the trail.

[SGT Rock]

Rumor has it that some local clubs pride themselves in the fact that their section is harder than anothers. Maybe Vermont.
Actually this is something I was also told by a few maintainers. Back-in-the-day it was sort of like who could brag to have hard sections - hence routes like Albert Mountain or the climb that was out of the NOC.

Perhaps it is the fact that the average age of maintainers is getting up there, but I noticed a move in some sections to make the AT go in more sane routes or with more normal slopes. Some of that older "hard" route is easier to erode away which really doesn't make sense. I assume it was either because someone wanted to make it hard, or had to get it in quickly, or really didn't know/think about the erosion issues.

[A-Train]

Go out west and hike the PCT. The trail is almost always well graded, rock-free and the views are limitless. They're even nice enough to make it sunny for you almost every day so you're not inconvenienced by rain. And since there are no shelters you can direct yourself anyway you want, away from the wind at a campsite of your choice.

Part of the beauty and character of the AT is the PUDS, and things that make no conceivable sense.

[thestin]

I started hiking in the early 1970s. At that time much of the trail was on private land. Often there would be "emergency" relos when a land owner closed his land. There was also a good deal of road walking back then, which was tough on a hot summer afternoon.

Seems to me that some of the worst climbs have been taken out. The stretch between Wesser and the Smokies used to be brutal.

It still amazes me today that most of the trail is now protected.

[Alligator]

Lotsa views when the leaves are off.

[rcli4]

Rumor has it that some local clubs pride themselves in the fact that their section is harder than anothers. Maybe Vermont.

The reroute on Killington in Vermont, was done to keep an adjacent land owner from doing what he wanted with his property. Never made much sense to me. I think everyone goes to the Inn at the Long Trail. The trail came out of the woods across the street from it. They moved the trail to the other side of the mountain to stop development that was not visable from the old AT. Now there is a mile walk on the highway to the Inn.

Clyde

[weary]

After my latest section hike & combining my impressions from my previous hikes, I have come to believe that the ATC "Mission" is not as stated on their web site:

"The Appalachian Trail Conservancy is a volunteer-based, private nonprofit organization dedicated to the conservation of the 2,175-mile Appalachian National Scenic Trail, a 250,000-acre greenway extending from Maine to Georgia. Our mission is to ensure that future generations will enjoy the clean air and water, scenic vistas, wildlife and opportunities for simple recreation and renewal along the entire Trail corridor.
Formerly known as the Appalachian Trail Conference, the ATC is an 80-year-old organization whose roots are traced to the vision of Benton MacKaye, who convened and organized the first Appalachian Trail "conference" – a gathering of hikers, foresters and public officials – in Washington, D.C., in 1925. Today, we work with the National Park Service Appalachian Trail Park Office, 30 maintaining clubs and multiple other partners to engage the public in conserving this essential American resource."

But is an evil organization whose SOLE purpose is to cause misery to hikers.
My "evidence":
Nearly 1/2 of the shelters I have seen faced INTO the prevailing wind, when an easier construction site is on the other side of the AT, or just a few hundred feet up/down trail.
For no apparent reason, the trail will veer off a well graded, scenic route to go straight up a dangerously rocky & STEEP hill, just to go up that hill, No views, Nothing of interest AT ALL atop this waterless dirt clod, then 2 or 3 miles later the AT rejoins the nice trail, usually less that 200 yards from where it left.
Often, the AT will veer to go over a (literal) pile of rocks, rocks that seem to be placed there to twist ankles, wrench knees, & bruise or brake hikers, with EASY ground 10 feet to the right or left, or BOTH!!
THE AT TOTALLY PASSES UP THE BEAUTIFUL EASY TO WALK VIRGINIA CREEPER TRAIL!! AND, the creeper has amenities, not many, but the scenery is fantastic (there is minimal on the AT thru that area) ample water & a really great restaurant about the halfway mark between Damascus & the Lost Mt shelter.

Oh, yes, there are sections where the maintainer apparently defies ATC policy & the route is great. And I must say the maintainers do try to do well with what they got.

Sure, the various clubs do have "control" over their sections, but if the troops mess up during a battle, it is the generals fault, the ATC is the general, so they are responsible.

Am I being overly critical?
If I am right, is there anything we can do about it??

I feel the ATC is totally out of touch with what hikers want & need or simply doesn’t care, or worse is actively trying to be cruel. After all, look at what they did to Earl Schaffer. Inexcusable!!
Golly, I've been tilling my garden, spreading the last of last year's left over fertilizer. I've just come in from near darkess, abandoning my mowing that I wanted to get done before going to Massachusetts on Friday for a grandson's graduation from college -- at last. Not all my kids and grandchildrens have chosen to make the effort.

Now I have to answer Doctori's rant. Doctori, no less, one of my favorite White Blazers.

Okay, first, the ATC is involved in a massive reorganization, forced mostly because most AT hikers, you know, us folks who love the trail, have never really supported it. A few years ago it concluded it could in no way protect the future of the trail with the kind of support it was getting so it held many, many meetings, some with expensive "facilitators" in an effort to find out how to do better.

I sensed that the effort to do better had slipped onto the wrong track, and tried to alert ATC to that fact.

But I rightly had no credibility. Yep. I had maintained a couple of miles of the trail for 25 years, and had been appointed an overseer in desperation, when Steve Clark quit to organize the 1997 biennial conference.

Anyway, as near as I can figure out, the reorganization has, in fact, failed to work out as well as hoped. But changes are underway. Some very bright people -- those from Maine at least -- are highly qualified to make this work. I'm confident they will.

Now, back to Doctari. He complains that most shelters face into the prevailing wind. If so, that is bad. But because we have never supported ATC as we should, ATC doesn't begin to have the facilities to make those decisions. They are all made by regional maintaining clubs -- 30 at last count. Complain to the clubs, not ATC, because they have never had the money needed for managing the trail in anything remotely like what that would entail.

Next Doctari complains, "For no apparent reason, the trail will veer off a well graded, scenic route to go straight up a dangerously rocky & STEEP hill, just to go up that hill, No views, Nothing of interest AT ALL atop this waterless dirt clod, then 2 or 3 miles later the AT rejoins the nice trail, usually less that 200 yards from where it left."

Again, blame the maintaining clubs. Who do you suppose join these groups? Do you suppose it might be locaL folks who like to get out in the woods on a weekend and are willing to volunteer to do what they can to keep that privilege?

Very few are through hikers, or thru hiker dreamers. They just want to help protect their weekend joy, which is the most challenging trail they can find, or produce.

Surprise. The trail they choose, isn't the trail many thru hikers like. Most thru hikers just want to get to Maine -- or Springer -- as easily as possible. Thru hikers want an easy trail -- at least after the first few weeks. Weekenders want a challenging trail.

And finally, or almost, Doctari complains, "THE AT TOTALLY PASSES UP THE BEAUTIFUL EASY TO WALK VIRGINIA CREEPER TRAIL!! AND, the creeper has amenities, not many, but the scenery is fantastic (there is minimal on the AT thru that area) ample water & a really great restaurant about the halfway mark between Damascus & the Lost Mt shelter."

Well, because I wasn't a "purist" in 1993. I took the Creeper Trail out of Damascus. It was a nice trail -- a nice boring section. When we met next at a shelter, and listened to the purist comments, I knew I had taken the wrong trail. A scramble over rocks and through the woods struck me as far more interesting than a slow walk through farm fields with people wanting me to spend money on snacks and souveniers.

Okay, finally, really this time. Doctari asks, "if the troops mess up during a battle, it is the generals fault, the ATC is the general, so they are responsible. Am I being overly critical?
If I am right, is there anything we can do about it??

Well, Yes, you are overly critical. Is there anything to be done about the current trail configuration? I hope not. Thru hikers are a tiny part of the AT community -- though admittedly the most influential.

We need to recognize that the trail is a marvelous asset, used by many different groups, but supported by a very tiny minority of users -- most of whom have no real knowledge of long distance hiking.

Those of us who want more influence on the future of the trail, need to put our wallets where our mouths are.

Weary

[Cookerhiker]

The reroute on Killington in Vermont, was done to keep an adjacent land owner from doing what he wanted with his property. Never made much sense to me. I think everyone goes to the Inn at the Long Trail. The trail came out of the woods across the street from it. They moved the trail to the other side of the mountain to stop development that was not visable from the old AT. Now there is a mile walk on the highway to the Inn.

Clyde

So that's the reason for the reroute - I had wondered. I hiked the original (now blue-blazed) passing the Inn on my LT thruhike last year, told the GMC such, and they still sent me the patch.

[Blissful]

Shelters - one doesn't need to stay in them so the prevaling wind issue is really a non issue.
But as to the PUDS and other worthless sections that one must tread, yeah,they are a pain. Many,many times I complained. But then I had to come down off my pedestal and really be thankful to those who gave ceaseless hours of dedicated work to make the trail an interesting and challenging walk. But I must admit I was thankful to see some people mapping out a section along the Tinker Cliff part of the trail in VA to reroute it way from a pointlessly steep descent that was rapidly eroding. :)

Now if the trail can be rerouted in some of the Stecoah section, I'll be happy, ha ha

[Skidsteer]

Shelters - one doesn't need to stay in them so the prevaling wind issue is really a non issue.


Excellent point.

[hammock engineer]

My distaste of the ATC comes from a less than helpful experience I had at the ATC office in Harpers Ferry on the southbound last year. Not helpful people at all. But they are more than willing to take you picture.

[Hikerhead]

I remember one worthless climb between Roan Mtn and Unaka Mtn. Going south bound you have a 200 yard or so straight up climb to a no-view knob. Then the trail does a horseshoe turn coming down it and you look over and there's the trail you climbed 30 yards away. I stopped, said a few choice words, and hiked on.

[Dances with Mice]

Rock & Weary made excellent posts about the role of the volunteer clubs, I have nothing much to add except:

There seems to be an underlying assumption that the AT is maintained for the benefit of thru-hikers.

That is a very bad assumption.

[Appalachian Tater]

Doctari, I think the ATC is misunderstood by you but I will warn you that most of the posters in this thread do not appear to be capable of giving a neutral opinion because they are somehow involved with the trail, whether by maintaining it, supporting it with conservation efforts, or even walking on it. To get a truly objective response to your question, you need to talk to some people who have never heard of the ATC or the AT.

[hammock engineer]

What I would like to see is some pointless projects made by some clubs put to better use. I know if someone donates to a club they want to see it put to good use in that area. But there are better uses for the overall good of the trail.

The biggest one that comes to mind is the bridge that was built north of the James River in VA. A new 30-40 section of trail was also made on the opposite side of the creek in addition to the bridge. All of this within site of a bridge over the creek on the road. Only to follow the road a little. A complete waste of money in my eyes. That money could be better spent putting a bridge over the stream crossing north of Pearisburg VA that has a 2+ miles road walk now, or the bridge out north of Unionville that was lost in a flood and is now a long road walk.

Things like that make me think that there is a much better way of doing things.

I like the fact that in some areas it goes over everything and other is skates them. It mixes things up.

[Cabin Fever]

Being a little harsh aren't you? Whether you, I or anyone else like it, the man's not only entitled to his opinion, but to make it known. Cut him some slack, man.

Touche. With 2175 miles of trail, nobody is going to like it all or be happy with 100% of the experience. I have places that made me cuss to myself too.

[Hikerhead]

What I would like to see is some pointless projects made by some clubs put to better use. I know if someone donates to a club they want to see it put to good use in that area. But there are better uses for the overall good of the trail.

The biggest one that comes to mind is the bridge that was built north of the James River in VA. A new 30-40 section of trail was also made on the opposite side of the creek in addition to the bridge. All of this within site of a bridge over the creek on the road. Only to follow the road a little. A complete waste of money in my eyes. That money could be better spent putting a bridge over the stream crossing north of Pearisburg VA that has a 2+ miles road walk now, or the bridge out north of Unionville that was lost in a flood and is now a long road walk.

Things like that make me think that there is a much better way of doing things.

I like the fact that in some areas it goes over everything and other is skates them. It mixes things up.

That bridge over the James didn't cost the ATC anything.

[joel137]

Rumor has it that some local clubs pride themselves in the fact that their section is harder than anothers. Maybe Vermont.

Vermont, naaahhhh

[pyroman53]

I remember one worthless climb between Roan Mtn and Unaka Mtn. Going south bound you have a 200 yard or so straight up climb to a no-view knob. Then the trail does a horseshoe turn coming down it and you look over and there's the trail you climbed 30 yards away. I stopped, said a few choice words, and hiked on.

Yeah baby - I'm pickin up whatchur layin down here. Gotta just chuckle, cuss, shake yur head and walk on. I've seen a buncha those. Its like the local club is tryin to prove their section is the equal of New Hampshire!! I gotta give props to Blissfull who said "really be thankful to those who gave ceaseless hours of dedicated work to make the trail an interesting and challenging walk." I've done some trail work and I aint gunna complain if someone else is feelin the pain!! Part of my reason for being out there is to get a workout, so...f' em if they can't take a joke! Thanks to all those who put in the hours to make my walk as good as it is!! All in all, there's nothin better!

[rafe]

I've decided, after many years of "battling" the AT, that there's no point complaining about it. It is what it is. Sometimes it's a drag, and sometimes it's too beautiful for words. There are times for stoicism (ie., grin and bear it) and times for sheer pleasure, awe and epiphany.

But mostly, since I don't maintain it or help to manage it (except with donations in cash) I figure I haven't much right to complain.

You'll get no sympathy from most WBers about shelters. I use them, when they're convenient, and I'm in the mood, and they're not too ratty. Some are awful, most are just adequate, and some are beautiful -- either in their siting or construction or both. Hikers on the major western trails don't have and don't expect shelters.

As for the PUDs, the green tunnel, and the viewless summits... that's one of the downers, I suppose. But really the whole trail is a PUD, no? Having walked over Race Mountain in MA on a blast-furnace muggy June day, I now understand that wooded summits have their advantages.

On the whole, I've come to terms with the AT. It's a fine piece of work, for the most part. I figure probably every mile has its story -- how it come to be that the trail went this way instead of that way -- and why the trail follows such a (seemingly) irrational course. I'm sure $$ plays into it in many ways. Land that is "free" (ie. undeveloped, and thus available for public use) is land that has the least commercial value. We get to use it (and pretend that it's wilderness) mostly because its commercial value is near zero -- or occasionally, because various government agencies saw fit to preserve it for its natural and recreational value.

Is it harder than it should be or could be? Yeah, probably, at times. Sigh. So think of it as a workout.

Really, we ought to be thankful for what we've got. I sure am.

[rafe]

That bridge over the James didn't cost the ATC anything.

H.E. is talking about another smaller bridge over a creek just north of the river. I wondered about that one myself. Seemed weird, and quite unnecessary.

Personally, I wonder about the genius that routed the trail between Pinkham and Wildcat summit, or four miles outside of Monson, or the original (1990) route up over Pond Mountain, or the nobo descent off of Dragon's Tooth. Just a few teasers that come to mind.

[Hikerhead]

H.E. is talking about another smaller bridge over a creek just north of the river. I wondered about that one myself. Seemed weird, and quite unnecessary.


Sorry, my bad. :datz

[Tin Man]

I've decided, after many years of "battling" the AT, that there's no point complaining about it. It is what it is. Sometimes it's a drag, and sometimes it's too beautiful for words. There are times for stoicism (ie., grin and bear it) and times for sheer pleasure, awe and epiphany.

But mostly, since I don't maintain it or help to manage it (except with donations in cash) I figure I haven't much right to complain.

You'll get no sympathy from most WBers about shelters. I use them, when they're convenient, and I'm in the mood, and they're not too ratty. Some are awful, most are just adequate, and some are beautiful -- either in their siting or construction or both. Hikers on the major western trails don't have and don't expect shelters.

As for the PUDs, the green tunnel, and the viewless summits... that's one of the downers, I suppose. But really the whole trail is a PUD, no? Having walked over Race Mountain in MA on a blast-furnace muggy June day, I now understand that wooded summits have their advantages.

On the whole, I've come to terms with the AT. It's a fine piece of work, for the most part. I figure probably every mile has its story -- how it come to be that the trail went this way instead of that way -- and why the trail follows such a (seemingly) irrational course. I'm sure $$ plays into it in many ways. Land that is "free" (ie. undeveloped, and thus available for public use) is land that has the least commercial value. We get to use it (and pretend that it's wilderness) mostly because its commercial value is near zero -- or occasionally, because various government agencies saw fit to preserve it for its natural and recreational value.

Is it harder than it should be or could be? Yeah, probably, at times. Sigh. So think of it as a workout.

Really, we ought to be thankful for what we've got. I sure am.

Well said. I used to curse some of the puds, until I realized that if I don't like the AT, I can hike somewhere else. Better yet, someday I plan to join a maintenance club where I can participate in the process.

I am thankful as well.

[MOWGLI]

The corridor is the trail clubs canvas - on which they can construct their trail. In some places it is wide. In other places, it is narrow. The boundary will influence where the trail is constructed. As will the topography. And the presence of rare or threatened species. And the desires of the land managers.

Most of these things (other than topography) are not evident to the hiker.

If you don't like the AT, go find yourself another trail. No, better yet, stay on the AT and leave the lesser traveled trails to people like me. The kind of bitching I see on this thread goes a long way (for me) towards pushing me off the AT onto other less traveled trails. You find what you seek out there. If you seek misery and discomfort, I guarantee you'll find it in abundance. If you seek beauty and joy, that too can be found in great abundance. What we have here is a lack of gratitude.

Support the ATC.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

This thread illustrates why I favor the corridor concept over the single path concept for all long trails. If the included multiple accepted routes AT along intertwined trails within a corridor then people could pick the trails which best suited their hiking needs / likes / abilities and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

If the ATC and ALDHA want universal support, they need to meet universal needs - this is a two way street and no organization deserves automatic support without question IMO. YMMV.

[Mrs Baggins]

I hear what you are saying, Doctari, and I mostly agree with you.

As do I. Explain privies that are built expressly to offer as little privacy as possible. Men may not mind group pees but women don't like to be on display. Makes me wonder if there are maintainers with binoculars sitting somewhere. :eek: The trail was meant to be "a footpath in the wilderness" for everyone, not just those who confuse hiking with mountain climbing and only want the hardcore out there.

[Tin Man]

This thread illustrates why I favor the corridor concept over the single path concept for all long trails. If the included multiple accepted routes AT along intertwined trails within a corridor then people could pick the trails which best suited their hiking needs / likes / abilities and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

If the ATC and ALDHA want universal support, they need to meet universal needs - this is a two way street and no organization deserves automatic support without question IMO. YMMV.

FD - didn't we already have this discussion? The A.T. corridor is very narrow in most places. Multi-routes require a lot of extra land to acquire, develop and maintain. Sure other trails intereconnect in places, but I doubt it could be done everywhere there is a perceived problem. And unviversal support is impossible for any organization. The A.T. is what it is, love it or hike somewhere else. And if you love it, support the ATC.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

I don't believe the AT can or should change. As Tin Man notes, it is what it is. However, no one should be bashed for pointing out the obvious problems with the AT nor battered into supporting something that could be made better so very easily. The ATC and ALDHA can hang on to the out-dated single-path concept, but they will have to contend with the dwindling membership, financial contributions and volunteer hours for doing so as people embrace trails that provide enough alternatives to meet a variety of needs.

[Dances with Mice]

Once upon a time back in my Boy Scout days I volunteered to work at a community food bank and the people we served complained about the free food available – there was too much beans not enough meat we didn’t have any carrots why wasn’t there more wheat flour why was there no cheese, etc. We were briefed to expect that. The ‘customers’ weren’t really ungrateful; complaining gave them some feeling of control over their lives and just by listening to their complaints and telling them we understood meant that somebody cared about them.

I see the same thing on this site – Why doesn’t the ATC construct easier trails, more trails, better trails, clear brush and briars, build better shelters and place them closer together, put more water in the springs, prohibit dogs, confiscate cell phones, wall the privies, tear down all shelters and the huts in the Whites, fine graffiti artists, exterminate mice and ticks, move the firepits, paint more blazes, require handgun training, outlaw drinking, sink the canoe ferry, spend less on office supplies and pay their staff like the Salvation Army?”

I’m in no position to reply but I’d just like to say “Bless your hearts. I understand.” I do hope y’all feel better now.

Most (…like 95%...) of what I’ve read on this thread is not under the purview of the ATC. Suggestions for footpath condition or location and facility improvements need to go to the local maintenance clubs (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.786807/k.3154/Trail_Clubs.htm).

[Dances with Mice]

Most (…like 95%...) of what I’ve read on this thread is not under the purview of the ATC. Suggestions for footpath condition or location and facility improvements need to go to the local maintenance clubs (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.786807/k.3154/Trail_Clubs.htm). Oh, yeah, I forgot.... One question: Does anybody having trouble understanding that concept or need help finding the correct contact?

[jersey joe]

Call me crazy, but I kind of like the steep up and downs on the AT. I mean, wasn't the original intent of the AT to go up and down the Appalachian Mountains? If they wanted to make it "easy" they would have just followed the valleys...I frequently remind myself that the "hard" way is usually the "right" way.

[Yahtzee]

I think the ATC needs more control over the AT, not less. By that, I mean, they need more control over the maintaining clubs. Now, bless these clubs and their volunteers one and all, but they do involve themselves in some fairly pointless projects. I was a member of the SATC, just north of Duncannon, before they decided to do a few relos that had absolutely no point, and in fact routed the trail away from some cool walking. It was hard work, they did it, and bless 'em for it, but the ATC needs to look harder at some of the relos they approve.

Anyhow, have no idea of the politics of the ATC or its new appelation (pardon the pun?) but by my estimation,the ATC is the reason we all walk on protected land, so let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[earlyriser26]

I've been hiking the AT since 1969, and yes, I maintained a section of the trail in Maine for a few years (from Ohio no less). I agree with Doctari that when possible some of the trail PUDS should be taken out. There will always be PUDS for various reasons, but ATTENTION AT CLUBS, you can go around a mountain if there is both nothing to see on the mountain and there is something to see by going around. The AT is not a bike path, but it shouldn't be a mindless treadmill either.

[Doctari]

I will concede the Virginia Creeper. I enjoyed it, especially as my knees were nearly done & needed the rest, but yea, it aint the AT.

I have heard Here & from this year's Thrus that "the AT is for non thru hikers, ie day hikers, weekenders & section hikers. BUT, as a sectioner I beg to differ: Usually thrus have the trail legs & etc to easily do most terrain & etc the trail throws at them, at least by the end of the Smokies. For us who are just starting out this trip, that level of hiking ability is just not there, what a Thru thinks of as "challenging" is absolute misery for us day hikers, weekenders & section hikers. Had my first day hike been on the section from Partnership shelter to Chatfield shelter, I would have never hiked again, EVER! The first time the trail veered 10' to go over a stupid pile of loose rocks, "Just to go over those rocks" with a nice place to put a trail less than 15' away, ALONG THE LINE THE TRAIL WAS ALREADY TAKING, I would be (Was / am) very mad.

If it's the local clubs, they need to stop doing that. If it is the ATC, they also need to stop. This is not just my opinion, I heard it voiced many times over the 3 weeks of my hike from thrus, day hikers, weekenders & section hikers "It's as if whoever layed out this section (pick a rough &/or mindless section) HATES hikers!" A few, at seperate times, said "I wonder where the hidden cameras were on (X) section, so who ever did that can laugh at how miserable the hikers thru that section are!" I am quoting at least 3 other hikers from 3 seperate unrelated times.

And, for how many years have ALL hikers complained about MUDS? PUDS?
I love the AT, & have for over 40 years, but it seems that whoever is doing some of these sections is "out to get hikers". There are many sections that are wonderful, nice challenging climbs that actually make sense. They actually follow old trails to: views, historical or other areas of interest. Sometimes to the point where without knowing where the area of one maintainer end & the other begins you can immediatly tell just by the routing or other not so subtle changes to the trail. :(

As a day hiker, weekender & section hiker I have to say that the AT has some of the BEST layed out trails (Thanks BOB P.!!!!) & some of the WORST layed out trails I have ever hiked (Curse you & your offspring forever: who ever layed out between Partnership & Chatfield!).

I know for a fact that whoever is responsible will never take "credit" they know it is wrong. Yes, there are times as others have said where the trail has to or had to go a certen way due to land restrictions or whatever. My complaint is not about that! Yes, I can't know where they all are, but to leave a old logging road for 30 yards or less to go 2 miles over some clump of dirt just to come back to the logging road is NOT one of those times!! I have litterally talked to someone who was 2 miles "behind" me, nearly face to face & neither of us left "our" section of the AT. W T F?

[Wise Old Owl]

Well I learned something from all this stuff - Thank You Sgt Rock & Weary


Sorry Doc, I like a few Muds & Puds! If it were a flat trail like a canal or Rail to Trail, I am on my mountain bike.

[Alligator]

If you are not privy to the decision making process as to where the trail has been laid out, how can you in all honesty know that what you think is wrong is wrong?

Maybe the trail over the rocks is to avoid soils prone to mud pits.

Maybe the PUD leads to a beautiful view in winter.

Maybe there's an endangered species that needs to be avoided. Or even a den or nest site.

Maybe they feel some parts should be hard and some parts easy.

It's serious second-guessing without having talked with the people who laid things out. I'm not saying they are without error either. I think clubs learn things over time. Just remember though it's a large number of volunteers who many times are starting their trail maintenance skills from scratch. Not everyone who picks up a pulaski is a civil engineer or a recreation ecologist.

I don't real feel like the clubs are "out to get hikers". Only a truly sick bastard would give up their free time, repeatedly, simply to mess with hikers. Rather, I'm of the opinion that folks who maintain do it out of love and caring for the trail.

[Wise Old Owl]

I see the same thing on this site – Why doesn’t the ATC construct easier trails, more trails, better trails, clear brush and briars, build better shelters and place them closer together, put more water in the springs, prohibit dogs, confiscate cell phones, wall the privies, tear down all shelters and the huts in the Whites, fine graffiti artists, exterminate mice and ticks, move the firepits, paint more blazes, require handgun training, outlaw drinking, sink the canoe ferry, spend less on office supplies and pay their staff like the Salvation Army?”

I’m in no position to reply but I’d just like to say “Bless your hearts. I understand.” I do hope y’all feel better now.



Way too funny - DWM you're awesome!

[Mrs Baggins]

I've been hiking the AT since 1969, and yes, I maintained a section of the trail in Maine for a few years (from Ohio no less). I agree with Doctari that when possible some of the trail PUDS should be taken out. There will always be PUDS for various reasons, but ATTENTION AT CLUBS, you can go around a mountain if there is both nothing to see on the mountain and there is something to see by going around. The AT is not a bike path, but it shouldn't be a mindless treadmill either.

My thoughts exactly!

[MamaCat]

Yall don't forget that the Forest Service has a big say in where the trail goes. It is mostly their land that we are working on!

[Kerosene]

Rumor has it that some local clubs pride themselves in the fact that their section is harder than anothers. Maybe Vermont.Certainly not the Vermont AT (Green Mountain Club), as I think they've preserved that distinction for the northern part of the Long Trail.

[Appalachian Tater]

Well, you just have to accept that the trail is what it is and it doesn't even know you exist, it's not personal, you're walking it to be walking, not to get from point A to point B as fast as possible. Otherwise you drive yourself mad with anger.

[weary]

It's been said before, but perhaps we need reminding about the history of the Maine AT.

Myron Avery pushed the trail through Maine over the objections of those who said that Maine was too wild and that the AT should stop on Washinton in New Hampshire. He eased his task by following an awful lot of logging roads, that no one was much using during the depression of the 30s.

MATC after World War II moved some of the trail to the summit ridges. I think the triple peaks of Bemis were added in 1958, partly in response to the private landowners who wanted their roads back.

A few years later the Sugarloaf ski area wanted the mountain for skiers, so we moved the trail over the mostly viewless Crockers and the backside of Sugarloaf.

But the big change came in the late 70s and 80s after Congress decreed that by a date certain a permanent location for the trail had to be chosen. A handful of volunteers mounted a crash effort. Two thirds of the trail was rerouted. The rule was to move the trail out of the valleys and on to the ridgelines. We did that with a passion.

With more time and a paid staff we could have spent a decade just figuring out the best route. Instead we had only about 10 years to get the job done. Nobody will deny that mistakes were made. Everyone had a favorite mountain they wanted to go over or to simply explore to see what might be there.

I wasn't massively involved, but I was with the group that scouted the Gulf Hagas to Whitecap section. It wasn't scientific. But it sure was fun.

The job got done. I continue to think Maine has the best section of the trail. We are still correcting a few corners where the corridor that was purchased by the National Park Service is outside the places where we built the trail.

Now the effort is to provide buffers to the narrow corridor, because most of the abutting land has been sold to developers. Our focus is the "high peaks" surrounding Saddleback and Sugarloaf, where development is most likely to come first.

We always are seeking help. We only need a few million dollars.

Weary www.matlt.org

[max patch]

I wasn't massively involved, but I was with the group that scouted the Gulf Hagas to Whitecap section. It wasn't scientific. But it sure was fun.



Weary, is the blue blazed Gulf Hagas trail the "old" AT?

[Cookerhiker]

It's been said before, but perhaps we need reminding about the history of the Maine AT.

....... I think the triple peaks of Bemis were added in 1958, partly in response to the private landowners who wanted their roads back.

......I continue to think Maine has the best section of the trail.

Weary www.matlt.org (http://www.matlt.org)

Ah Bemis. Almost quit my '05 hike (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=114621) when I nearly broke my neck descending the slippery wet rocks on the north side.

Yes, Maine is the best. And with the exception of Moody and the Crockers, all the uphills have rewarding views. As tough as Maine was, I never thought the trail should be re-routed to avoid some mountain - I guess none of them were true PUDs. The closest I came to feeling that way was Nesuntabunt because it seemed the trail could have circumvented it. But the views of Nahmakanta Lake and Katahdin made the ascent worthwhile.

[weary]

Weary, is the blue blazed Gulf Hagas trail the "old" AT?
No. I think the Old AT followed old roads to White Brook and then followed along the west shore of the brook to the old fire warden trail to the ridgeline and down the other side to other old roads, by passing both Gulf Hagas and the summit of Whitecap.

There's still an old leanto on White Brook that was abandoned in the 70s. It's in pretty good shape, though the access is blocked by a beaver flowage and an overgrown trail.

Weary

[Doctari]

Thanks to every one who posted. Some good well thought out stuff here, even the ones that say "Doctari is wrong!" :p as long as a reasonable explination was added!!! Hey, I have been wrong before, it likely will happen again. :rolleyes:

As you may have noticed this post was moved from "Straight Forward" to "trail concerns". This is a more fitting place for it, but please try to stay on topic. This post is NOT ment to be against the AT itself.

I love the AT, will do so regardless. I suppose my post was a knee jerk reaction to what I percieved as an assult on my beloved trail from "the inside". What I did (& still do[?]) saw as a attempt to keep / drive hikers from the trail. Maybe not even as extreme as that, but perhaps an attempt to be elitist, an "Only good hikers welcome here" mind set. Maybe it is ignorance on the part of a new maintainer, or endangered plants / animals, etc. And maybe, just maybe there is a sick bastard (or more) out there, hidden cameras & all :)

I still say the section between Partnership & Chatfield is just mean / evil. And nothing anyone says will change that. There MUST be cameras there!

[SGT Rock]

I still say the section between Partnership & Chatfield is just mean / evil. And nothing anyone says will change that. There MUST be cameras there!
Especially where the trail goes right through a mud hole just south of a dirt road. What dufus did that? I walked around it.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

:::: Dino wraps a comforting tail around Doctari and still agrees with his assessment ::::

[dessertrat]

The mission of those who route the trails is to show off how fit they are. Didn't you know that?

[Mags]

Here is a prime example of why maps make sense. Don't like the route? Take another trail. Or walk the country road that seems interesting. Or cobble together your own route.

I realize it ain't the "official" AT..but if a route makes more sense (be it aesthetic, resupply or other reasons) to you versus the current trail, take it. :)

[sofaking]

And maybe, just maybe there is a sick bastard (or more) out there, hidden cameras & all :)

There MUST be cameras there!
be sure to try and smile when you're whining.

[Alligator]

Especially where the trail goes right through a mud hole just south of a dirt road. What dufus did that? I walked around it.Is it USFS 86?

I hiked that section in the winter and honestly can't recall having any difficulties other than thinking the gap at 86 would be an ok place to camp. The walk north from that road isn't difficult. If I am remembering correctly, I started the day at the South Fork of the Holsten River (long wooden bridge?). I ate lunch at Partnership. I stopped at the gap because it was getting dark and I wasn't sure about making the Chatfield Shelter. The next day I realized I could have done it. My punishment was listening to coon hounds and teenagers partying.

Now I'm not disputing that others thought it was hard, nor that there may exist some poorly laid trail. But I did do that section in Jan. or Feb. with a full pack. I had much harder days further south.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Here is a prime example of why maps make sense. Don't like the route? Take another trail. Or walk the country road that seems interesting. Or cobble together your own route.

I realize it ain't the "official" AT..but if a route makes more sense (be it aesthetic, resupply or other reasons) to you versus the current trail, take it. :)::: Dino seen nodding affirmative at Mags :::

This is exactly what I have been doing. I'm using the BMT thru the GSMNP and will probably road walk some of Shenandoah so I get to see the views and I'm looking bypassing the Whites using alternative trails.

And Doctari, you should moon the camera :D

[Cookerhiker]

Especially where the trail goes right through a mud hole just south of a dirt road. What dufus did that? I walked around it.


.......I still say the section between Partnership & Chatfield is just mean / evil. And nothing anyone says will change that. There MUST be cameras there!


Is it USFS 86?

I hiked that section in the winter and honestly can't recall having any difficulties other than thinking the gap at 86 would be an ok place to camp. The walk north from that road isn't difficult. If I am remembering correctly, I started the day at the South Fork of the Holsten River (long wooden bridge?). I ate lunch at Partnership. I stopped at the gap because it was getting dark and I wasn't sure about making the Chatfield Shelter. The next day I realized I could have done it. My punishment was listening to coon hounds and teenagers partying.

Now I'm not disputing that others thought it was hard, nor that there may exist some poorly laid trail. But I did do that section in Jan. or Feb. with a full pack. I had much harder days further south.

I also hiked it in winter (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=87810) and didn't think it was bad at all.

[OregonHiker]

[quote=Frolicking Dinosaurs;624224
And Doctari, you should moon the camera :D[/quote]

At the Cog Railroad? :cool:

[Rain Man]

Some of you good hikers might benefit by reading "Appalachian Trail Design, Construction, and Maintenance" published by the ATC. It's available through my local library.

I'll note one of the first precepts in the first chapter is "A basic principle of trail design: 'Put the land mass below the hiker.' "

Might explain some of those climbs and locations y'all are "discussing" and "cussing."
;)
Personally,-- as an older, fatter section hiker,-- I've yet to see a climb to whine about, with the possible exception of the one out of Bly Gap from GA into NC.
:D
Albert Mountain? "Is that all there is?" The climb out of Wesser, NC? Just a nice steady climb. Roan Mountain? A great sense of accomplishment. Katahdin itself? Loved it!

If I wanted to hiked flatlands, I wouldn't head for the mountains. And if I wanted the AT routed otherwise, I'd be a lifetime member of a local club.

If I wanted to "vent"? Hmmmm... I'd probably join WB and sit at a keyboard and blame nameless, hard-working volunteers.

Best to you all, truly!!! Enjoy hiking your own hike, over the hills or through the valleys.

Rain:sunMan

.

[ki0eh]

I was a member of the SATC, just north of Duncannon, before they decided to do a few relos that had absolutely no point, and in fact routed the trail away from some cool walking.

The SATC was actually founded to do a reroute! http://www.satc-hike.org/history.htm The A.T. used to cross the Susquehanna on Harrisburg's Market Street Bridge, and the guidebook mentioned which of the Harrisburg Railways trolleys to take to and from Marysville and Rockville. After 1955, the trail went through Duncannon - that added a few ups and downs.

More recently, some SATC relocations have included:

-Moving away from an old road past a radio tower onto the south slope of Peters Mountain just trail-north of PA 225, adding a down through rocks, a narrow slot southward view, and back up.
-Moving off rocks laden with poison-ivy, to easier footing nearby.
-Switchbacking the start of an eroded descent from Peters Mountain to PA 325.
-(Pending) Reconstructing an eroded ascent of Sharp Mountain from PA 325 onto more durable (i.e. rocky) surface.

The first one probably seems like a PUD to a thru-hiker since it leads to far from the most impressive view even from Peters Mountain, but I must not quite be seeing what "cool walking" was eliminated... :confused:

[hammock engineer]

That bridge over the James didn't cost the ATC anything.


Not that one. There is a small creek the trail crosses just before the river. A bridge was built within sight of a bridge on a not heavily traveled road. A complete waste on money in my eyes.

[hammock engineer]

Especially where the trail goes right through a mud hole just south of a dirt road. What dufus did that? I walked around it.

Yeah that and the countless times it follows an old road or railroad bed for a little bit, then goes off only to keep crossing it. You think they would use the already made trail. But hey they didn't ask me.

[Yahtzee]

The SATC was actually founded to do a reroute! http://www.satc-hike.org/history.htm The A.T. used to cross the Susquehanna on Harrisburg's Market Street Bridge, and the guidebook mentioned which of the Harrisburg Railways trolleys to take to and from Marysville and Rockville. After 1955, the trail went through Duncannon - that added a few ups and downs.

More recently, some SATC relocations have included:

-Moving away from an old road past a radio tower onto the south slope of Peters Mountain just trail-north of PA 225, adding a down through rocks, a narrow slot southward view, and back up.
-Moving off rocks laden with poison-ivy, to easier footing nearby.
-Switchbacking the start of an eroded descent from Peters Mountain to PA 325.
-(Pending) Reconstructing an eroded ascent of Sharp Mountain from PA 325 onto more durable (i.e. rocky) surface.

The first one probably seems like a PUD to a thru-hiker since it leads to far from the most impressive view even from Peters Mountain, but I must not quite be seeing what "cool walking" was eliminated... :confused:

The cool walking I was talking about, I think, was the rocky poison ivy one you were talking about. At that pt. you are exactly on top of the ridge. The rocky part is short but interesting. In the winter the views down to Halifax from that spot are excellent as well.

Further, the rock work leading down to Peters Mt. Shelter was just needless. Hard work, but needless.

Now that the SATC has taken over from 325 to Rausch Gap there are alot more areas that need work.

[Programbo]

Nearly 1/2 of the shelters I have seen faced INTO the prevailing wind..........Am I being overly critical?

I think on this particular topic your concern is a bit overly critical..I can`t recall to many times thinking.."Gee it sure is windy in this shelter."...In general I am thinking to opposite is true..The AT is perhaps being made to easy and accessible

[briarpatch]

. . . . . You tell me: Why the f does the trail swerve 15 feet off a nice dirt path to go over a dangerous pile of rocks. . . . . .

I've helped move the trail 15 feet over several times for a variety of reasons. One I remember in particular was to address a boggy spot that needed draining. The trail was moved until a way to release the moisture in the bog could be figured out and approved by the FS. When the formerly boggy place was dry, the trail was moved back. If you came along after it dried out and before the trail bed was moved back, you would have said "Why on earth does the trail swerve off of this nice dirt path and why is there brush piled up to keep me from walking on the old trail?".

Trail relocations are a lot of work, especially for major movements. Believe me when I say maintainers don't go looking for routes just to make them hard on hikers. Remember, we have to build them AND carry tools in to maintain them.

Sometimes you find obstacles that have to be avoided in mid relo, and the route takes a funny turn. Sometimes the only route that isn't ecologically sensitive is not the easiest route for walking. The general idea is to stay away from the ecologically sensitive areas and build the trail for ongoing maintainability. You see a lot more sidehill trail than you do bottom and ridge following trails than you used to, because a proper sidehill trail is easier to maintain and doesn't risk impacting riparian areas.

Another war story. The trail used to drop down to the north off of Big Cedar/Granny Knob on an old road bed. Old road beds don't necessarily make good walking trails, they weren't built for foot traffic. They are wider than a proper hiking trail should be, and not graded with erosion control in mind. They usually go straight up and down over hills. Once they are closed to vehicle traffic and used for hiking, they tend to develop wet spots where water doesn't drain well and erode on the slopes. They can be a real pain to maintain - building water bars and check steps for them takes twice the work of a regular sidehill trail. On Granny Knob, the trail was moved completely away from the road bed onto switch backed sidehill. Its a longer hike now, and makes one or two strange turns, and since its now on sidehill there are no views to speak of - you would probably call it a boring walk. But we no longer have to deal with erosion on the old road and the walking is actually easier, IMHO.

I would bet that there is a similar story for any stretch of trail that you would wonder why its located where it is.

Oh, and if you live near the trail, I would recommend getting involved with a local trail club and volunteering for regular maintenance trips. That way, you can have a voice in correcting any problem areas.

[Tin Man]

Oh, and if you live near the trail, I would recommend getting involved with a local trail club and volunteering for regular maintenance trips. That way, you can have a voice in correcting any problem areas.

Great post. Thanks for sharing. People sure like to whine about stuff they know nothing about. I used to whine myself until I realized: a) there must be a reason for the trail re-route and if I don't know the reason, I shouldn't complain; and b) if I don't participate in making trail, then I know nothing about why the trail is what it is, just hike it or go somewhere else. Not saying that folks here don't know anything or haven't made some interesting observations - just saying that folks reading this should know the trail is like anything else - knowledge is key to forming an opinion. Participating in a local trail maintenance activity would go a long way towards educating folks.

I did some spring cleanup work on a local trail recently. One of the volunteers was hell-bound on clearing an overgrown section of the trail that wasn't on the newest maps. I told him we might want to check why it wasn't on the maps before we got too busy. Turns out there is a good reason, so I volunteered to close that section with a brush pile to make it obvious that it was closed. I was thinking of going back and doing more work to protect that area and closing it for good. Any advice on closing a trail would be appreciated. We do need to recover some bog bridges and signage. What else should we do?

[ki0eh]

Now that the SATC has taken over from 325 to Rausch Gap there are alot more areas that need work.

That's true. Mid-Atlantic Trail Crew was 2 weeks each for 2 years turnpiking a mud hole on my section between Yellow Springs and "The General". A short re-lo to get away from an eroded bit, and into where the average hiker can actually see some of the history around Yellow Springs, is beginning the process.



Further, the rock work leading down to Peters Mt. Shelter was just needless. Hard work, but needless.

Unless you want water! :D (That's the spring trail not the shelter access or the A.T.)

So.... do you guys like having the shelter up top and having to walk down for water, or do you want the shelter down low by the water, off the trail?

[MOWGLI]

Further, the rock work leading down to Peters Mt. Shelter was just needless. Hard work, but needless.



I walked through there on a 95 degree day in 2000 - with no water. As Pete said, I was grateful for that staircase. Granted, I was exhausted when I got back up to the shelter. :) To my eye, that's some of the finest rock work on the entire AT.

[SGT Rock]

Is it USFS 86?

I hiked that section in the winter and honestly can't recall having any difficulties other than thinking the gap at 86 would be an ok place to camp. The walk north from that road isn't difficult. If I am remembering correctly, I started the day at the South Fork of the Holsten River (long wooden bridge?). I ate lunch at Partnership. I stopped at the gap because it was getting dark and I wasn't sure about making the Chatfield Shelter. The next day I realized I could have done it. My punishment was listening to coon hounds and teenagers partying.

Now I'm not disputing that others thought it was hard, nor that there may exist some poorly laid trail. But I did do that section in Jan. or Feb. with a full pack. I had much harder days further south.
I cannot remember the dirt road crossing, I'd have to go dig out my map.

I was hiking this section the morning after all those tornado's and that flash flooding that occurred in SW Virginia. That morning it was still soak and wet, then the temp dropped and it started snowing as I left Partnership Shelter. I do remember this section as slightly annoying but not terribly bad compared to some sections I have hiked in the past. What I do distinctly recall though: I was coming up on one of the dirt road crossings and the forest was coming into a small clearing near the road - lots of ATV tracks in the area. As I got close to the road the trail was on flat ground - but a few hundred feet from the road there was a hole, the trail went right through the hole while there was an obvious way to go around. I don't know who dug that big hole or if it was there when the trail was routed through there and if so why it went through the hole...

And at this point the hole was full of water, it looked deep. Being that it was near freezing and snow was coming down, I opted to walk around and wonder who the hell picked the route to put the trail through a hole when one could walk around.

[sofaking]

...elf and gnome tracks in the area. As I got close to the road the trail was on flat ground - but a few hundred feet from the road there was a hole, the trail went right through the hole while there was an obvious way to go around. I don't know who dug that big hole or if it was there when the trail was routed through there and if so why it went through the hole...and i kept seeing all of these elf and gnome tracks...

And at this point the hole was full of water, it looked deep. Being that it was near freezing and snow was coming down, I opted to walk around and wonder who the hell picked the route to put the trail through a hole when one could walk around.

that was the secret 'hidey hole' hole...if you would have entered there, you would have been magically transported to the elf king's a.y.c.e hiker buffet. but it's a good thing you opted to detour around it, when the secret 'hidey hole' hole is full of water it doesn't always jive with the elf magic, sometimes it will magically transport you to the elf king's sewage treatment plant, which is no picnic.

[rafe]

In general I am thinking to opposite is true..The AT is perhaps being made to easy and accessible

In your section -- the mid-Atlantic -- that may be true. I don't think it's true for the Whites or for Maine. Nor was it true for some sections in GA/TN/NC when I went thru there years ago (Bly Gap, Sweetwater Gap, Cheoah/Stecoah, etc.)

I've seen this from a different perspective than most -- I did the AT quite out-of-order; the southern third first, then the northern third, and finally the middle third. It seems to me, the "middle" third was the easiest.

[upstream]

Please come help me cut weeds on my section this summer. While we're out there, I'll explain to you why the AT goes where it does.

Actually some other posters to this thread have done an excellent job, but, from experience, I'll tell you, that you will never really understand it until you take part in it. There is a lot more politics than you think that goes into a relo. There is the trails committee, the land owner (The Feds), the "Civil Engineers" (trail club relo layout experts), the regional ATC office (which actually has very little if any influence). Most of the maintainers, including the overseers, in the local clubs don't even have any influence.

But the AT is supposed to follow the ridgelines. Often it doesn't, because sidehill is easier to walk, easier to maintain, and less likely to erode than a ridge line or fall line trail, and often has better views than a nearby summit. Sometimes it doesn't because the CCC built a road over it.

It can be infuriating after spending years maintaining and improving the trail, to receive a letter from some thru-hiker, complaining of weeds, blowdowns, waterbars, blazes, signage, access, hunters, wildlife, water access, puds, etc. Well, maintainers have to have things to complain about too, so we will feel cared for.

Here's my top 10 list of things to complain about:
10. It get's really hot in the summer, especially going uphill.
9. Storms blow down trees.
8. Rain falls, runs downhill, and erodes soil.
7. Leaves fall and fill up waterbars & dips.
6. Trees and tree branches die and leave widow makers over campsites.
5. Ice knocks down live treetops that are often more difficult to clear than blowdowns.
4. Yellow jackets build nests and are active during weed cutting time.
3. Wild pigs tear up waterbars & dips.
2. Poison Ivy Thrives, and I "get" it.
1. Briars and weeds grow, and have to be cut, or the trail disappears.

Ok, well so much for complaining about mother nature. I guess the ATC can't do anything about those things.

Here's my top 10 list of "Human influenced" things to complain about:
10. Tools are heavy to carry in & out
9. Hiker poles make little berms on the outslopes of sidehill.
8. Hikers step on and flatten my bleeders.
7. the ATC surveys thru hikers, instead of overseers, about volunteer needs.
6. Hikers walk around blowdowns instead of clearing them.
5. The hike inn is an elitest hostel (try taking a family of 5, you can stay at the Ritz for less).
4. Difficult relocations because of heavily impacted riparian or camping areas.
3. It takes ($$) gasoline to get to where I start hiking in to my section.
2. Can't get anyone to help me cut weeds in summer.
1. I can't use a motorized weed cutter in wilderness.

So Dances with Mice, understand and bless us too.

It is also very satisfying when a thru-hiker sends complements and/or money, or joins our ranks after settling back into society.

Please note this is all tongue in cheek, and I love it all, even the dogs.

Also, this is a great thread, with lots of good information, Thanks everyone!

[Yahtzee]

That's true. Mid-Atlantic Trail Crew was 2 weeks each for 2 years turnpiking a mud hole on my section between Yellow Springs and "The General". A short re-lo to get away from an eroded bit, and into where the average hiker can actually see some of the history around Yellow Springs, is beginning the process.



Unless you want water! :D (That's the spring trail not the shelter access or the A.T.)

So.... do you guys like having the shelter up top and having to walk down for water, or do you want the shelter down low by the water, off the trail?

A bit of confusion. I'm not talking about the steps to the water, I'm talking about the new rock work done on the approach to the shelter. As you walk down the hill to the shelter. Had to be a lot of hard work, but can't see the pt. of it. Maybe water runoff but that work was a bit much.
Do you know the work I am talking about?

[Programbo]

It can be infuriating after spending years maintaining and improving the trail, to receive a letter from some thru-hiker, complaining .......7. the ATC surveys thru hikers, instead of overseers, about volunteer needs.

I think a lot of modern day "thru-hikers" are anomalies who have never hiked the AT before and will never hike it again and in general account for a tiny percentage of AT users so simply because they are "thru-hikers" shouldn`t give their opinions any more sway than anyone else..In a lot of respects they should count less...I would value the thoughts of a day hiker who travels the same sections over and over more as they see what has and hasn`t changed or what might make more sense in their little corner of the AT world.

[ki0eh]

A bit of confusion. I'm not talking about the steps to the water, I'm talking about the new rock work done on the approach to the shelter. As you walk down the hill to the shelter. Had to be a lot of hard work, but can't see the pt. of it. Maybe water runoff but that work was a bit much.
Do you know the work I am talking about?

Uh, no... :confused:

Unless you're talking about Clarks Ferry Shelter? That's in the York Hiking Club section and will be the 1st trail-north of Duncannon. SATC's Peters Mountain Shelter is the 2nd trail-north of Duncannon and it's never been accused before of being down any hill. Despite the name the Susquehanna AT Club section of the AT does not extend to the Susquehanna River, SATC starts trail-north of the new overpass over PA 225. SATC has no knowledge of nor control over what YHC does. :D

[MOWGLI]

Also, this is a great thread, with lots of good information, Thanks everyone!

Upstream, thanks for your efforts on behalf of the trail.

A couple of questions. Does GATC have long range plans to relo your fall line trails?

Also, what is the club's position on grade dips versus waterbars. Seems tome that dips require less maintenance.,

Thanks again.

[rafe]

I think a lot of modern day "thru-hikers" are anomalies who have never hiked the AT before and will never hike it again and in general account for a tiny percentage of AT users so simply because they are "thru-hikers" shouldn`t give their opinions any more sway than anyone else..In a lot of respects they should count less...I would value the thoughts of a day hiker who travels the same sections over and over more as they see what has and hasn`t changed or what might make more sense in their little corner of the AT world.

Without dissing thru-hikers, there's some truth to this. Fact is, day hikers and thru-hikers come at it with very different perspectives. The short-term hiker is less likely to complain, because he/she is looking for (and mostly finding) a radical change from a sedentary city/suburban lifestyle.

The thru hiker is out there for the long term, and after the initial rush is gone, is looking at it from a jaded, insider's view -- in other words, as a job that needs to be done. As such, MUDS and PUDS are obstacles to completion of that "job."

[Cookerhiker]

Upstream, thanks for your post. So true, so true!

"My" maintenance section in SNP is only 2.2 miles but it has dozens of waterbars (from rising 900' in 1.5 miles, then down) and most of it needs weedwacking twice a summer. And it's 160 miles from where I live. But I'm not complaining - with all the hiking I've done over 35 years, I should do more.

[Dances with Mice]

So Dances with Mice, understand and bless us too. I do understand. I co-maintain Section 9.8

[Dances with Mice]

A couple of questions. Does GATC have long range plans to relo your fall line trails?

Also, what is the club's position on grade dips versus waterbars. Seems tome that dips require less maintenance.,I should have multi-quoted: What's a fall line trail?

I've observed that grade dips are being designed into relocated trails.

[Doctari]

It's good to hear from the actual maintainers. I do wish I could do some maint, but the closest I am to the AT is a 8 hr drive, IF I don't stop for anything on the way there. No excuse I suppose, but, , , , , ,
I do see there are difficulties in laying out a trail, but yet no one has answered (what I think of as) my primary question: "Why take the AT off a nice trail, to go over some STUPID, NO VIEWS (In ANY season) LUMP OF DIRT, only to return to the original good path a few yards from where the AT left it???" There is a section S of Old orchard that the trail deviates about 3/4 mile to the edge of a bald, only to return to the valley less tha 30', thats THIRTY FEET ( I could clearly see the other blazes ) from where it swerved away from the line it was taking. There may have been views there, I don't know as it was foggy. BUT: for NOBOS, they have just seen plenty of views & SOBOS will see them soon enough & for sectioners (my POV) & day hikers I thought the woods with moss & interesting rocks was a better hike. It wasn't a difficult trail, easy grade, good treadway, but IMHO a totally pointless deviation.

I am thinking that maybe I'll take a few days next trip to move some rocks (just to the side of the trail, only the loose ones!) along that stretch that so p***ed me off. But then again if I am right, that will mean the person who layed it out will just go put them back :rolleyes:
AH HA, a TEST! If I am right, the rocks will return to their original ankle breaking knee wrenching positions, if I am just whining they will stay moved. :p

I am taking a map next time, just for such a situation! Should have had one this time, I do know better.

[A-Train]

Please come help me cut weeds on my section this summer. While we're out there, I'll explain to you why the AT goes where it does.

Actually some other posters to this thread have done an excellent job, but, from experience, I'll tell you, that you will never really understand it until you take part in it. There is a lot more politics than you think that goes into a relo. There is the trails committee, the land owner (The Feds), the "Civil Engineers" (trail club relo layout experts), the regional ATC office (which actually has very little if any influence). Most of the maintainers, including the overseers, in the local clubs don't even have any influence.

But the AT is supposed to follow the ridgelines. Often it doesn't, because sidehill is easier to walk, easier to maintain, and less likely to erode than a ridge line or fall line trail, and often has better views than a nearby summit. Sometimes it doesn't because the CCC built a road over it.

It can be infuriating after spending years maintaining and improving the trail, to receive a letter from some thru-hiker, complaining of weeds, blowdowns, waterbars, blazes, signage, access, hunters, wildlife, water access, puds, etc. Well, maintainers have to have things to complain about too, so we will feel cared for.

Here's my top 10 list of things to complain about:
10. It get's really hot in the summer, especially going uphill.
9. Storms blow down trees.
8. Rain falls, runs downhill, and erodes soil.
7. Leaves fall and fill up waterbars & dips.
6. Trees and tree branches die and leave widow makers over campsites.
5. Ice knocks down live treetops that are often more difficult to clear than blowdowns.
4. Yellow jackets build nests and are active during weed cutting time.
3. Wild pigs tear up waterbars & dips.
2. Poison Ivy Thrives, and I "get" it.
1. Briars and weeds grow, and have to be cut, or the trail disappears.

Ok, well so much for complaining about mother nature. I guess the ATC can't do anything about those things.

Here's my top 10 list of "Human influenced" things to complain about:
10. Tools are heavy to carry in & out
9. Hiker poles make little berms on the outslopes of sidehill.
8. Hikers step on and flatten my bleeders.
7. the ATC surveys thru hikers, instead of overseers, about volunteer needs.
6. Hikers walk around blowdowns instead of clearing them.
5. The hike inn is an elitest hostel (try taking a family of 5, you can stay at the Ritz for less).
4. Difficult relocations because of heavily impacted riparian or camping areas.
3. It takes ($$) gasoline to get to where I start hiking in to my section.
2. Can't get anyone to help me cut weeds in summer.
1. I can't use a motorized weed cutter in wilderness.

So Dances with Mice, understand and bless us too.

It is also very satisfying when a thru-hiker sends complements and/or money, or joins our ranks after settling back into society.

Please note this is all tongue in cheek, and I love it all, even the dogs.

Also, this is a great thread, with lots of good information, Thanks everyone!

Thanks for all your hard work-Us hikers appreciate it all. You tha man!

[Programbo]

There is a section S of Old orchard that the trail deviates about 3/4 mile to the edge of a bald, only to return to the valley less tha 30', thats THIRTY FEET ( I could clearly see the other blazes ) from where it swerved away from the line it was taking.

I thought that is what things like blue blazed side trails are for?

[ki0eh]

What's a fall line trail?

It's a trail that follows the fall line: if you drop a rock (or more importantly a water droplet), does it run along the trail, or does it run off the hill off the trail? If the rock or water drop follows the trail, the fall line follows the trail.

The fall line is perpendicular to topographic contours. For an illustration of how a ridgeline can be a fall line, check out the current "Appalachian Trail Fieldbook" document page 27 (which is hard copy page 53) of this: http://potomacappalachian.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=156

There's a handy little picture of some drainage issues on that page, and also some discussion of some of the other points in this thread throughout that little book.

Hopefully they'll cover rock sharpening more thoroughly in the next edition. :D

[Fly Rod]

Excellent point.

Yep! I agree. I don't use them unless I have newbies with me that want to. I like controlling how my shelter goes up.

As Sgt. Rock said earlier, there are many factors in choosing the location. However, they COULD, at least, spin 'em around and point them away from the prevailing wind. Maybe they were thinking about the view when they do that.

[weary]

I cannot remember the dirt road crossing, I'd have to go dig out my map.

I was hiking this section the morning after all those tornado's and that flash flooding that occurred in SW Virginia. That morning it was still soak and wet, then the temp dropped and it started snowing as I left Partnership Shelter. I do remember this section as slightly annoying but not terribly bad compared to some sections I have hiked in the past. What I do distinctly recall though: I was coming up on one of the dirt road crossings and the forest was coming into a small clearing near the road - lots of ATV tracks in the area. As I got close to the road the trail was on flat ground - but a few hundred feet from the road there was a hole, the trail went right through the hole while there was an obvious way to go around. I don't know who dug that big hole or if it was there when the trail was routed through there and if so why it went through the hole...

And at this point the hole was full of water, it looked deep. Being that it was near freezing and snow was coming down, I opted to walk around and wonder who the hell picked the route to put the trail through a hole when one could walk around.
I don't know the situation you describe. But among the failed attempts to thwart ATVs is to dig "tank traps" between natural barriers to keep them from going through. Rain, erosion and repeated crossing attempts by the vehicles eventually break down the edges, so they only work for a little while.

If that was the situation, you were expected to skirt the "trap." Was there space around for a four-foot wide machine to get through?

Weary

[Dances with Mice]

It's a trail that follows the fall line: if you drop a rock (or more importantly a water droplet), does it run along the trail, or does it run off the hill off the trail? If the rock or water drop follows the trail, the fall line follows the trail.Ah! In Georgia, "fall line" may mean something completely different (http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/Article.jsp?id=h-721)and the GATC maintains no trails close to the fall line, which is also sometimes called the "gnat line".

The question then, if I understand correctly, is do we have trails going straight up the freakin' mountains? And the answer is yeah, sometimes we do.

[ki0eh]

Ah! In Georgia, "fall line" may mean something completely different (http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/Article.jsp?id=h-721)and the GATC maintains no trails close to the fall line, which is also sometimes called the "gnat line".


That fall line is perpendicular to this fall line. :D

(Actually that fall line continues to New Jersey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_line and up north; well, north of NC; this trail http://www.greenway.org/ roughly follows it... )

[Wolf - 23000]

But is an evil organization whose SOLE purpose is to cause misery to hikers.
My "evidence":
Nearly 1/2 of the shelters I have seen faced INTO the prevailing wind, when an easier construction site is on the other side of the AT, or just a few hundred feet up/down trail.

I’m sorry; I must have missed where it says that you MUST stay in the shelters. An easy construction site might have been on the other side but what location is the permit to build the shelter given at? Were also was the water located? Is it close to private property that may involve a court battle?

For no apparent reason, the trail will veer off a well graded, scenic route to go straight up a dangerously rocky & STEEP hill, just to go up that hill, No views, Nothing of interest AT ALL atop this waterless dirt clod, then 2 or 3 miles later the AT rejoins the nice trail, usually less that 200 yards from where it left.

There are some viewless climbs on the AT. The view portion may also be recovering from previous trail damage due to over usage.

Often, the AT will veer to go over a (literal) pile of rocks, rocks that seem to be placed there to twist ankles, wrench knees, & bruise or brake hikers, with EASY ground 10 feet to the right or left, or BOTH!!

The AT is a nature trail.It is not design to be apave path the whole way so anyone with a wheel chair can do the trail. If you don’t feel safe walking that area, don’t or volunteer some time to make it smoother trail to your liken.

THE AT TOTALLY PASSES UP THE BEAUTIFUL EASY TO WALK VIRGINIA CREEPER TRAIL!! AND, the creeper has amenities, not many, but the scenery is fantastic (there is minimal on the AT thru that area) ample water & a really great restaurant about the halfway mark between Damascus & the Lost Mt shelter.


You can’t please everyone. I personal don’t like flat trails. I find them very boring. There are going to be some sections that are going to pass up one view in replace of another.

Oh, yes, there are sections where the maintainer apparently defies ATC policy & the route is great. And I must say the maintainers do try to do well with what they got.

Sure, the various clubs do have "control" over their sections, but if the troops mess up during a battle, it is the generals fault, the ATC is the general, so they are responsible.

The AT is over 2,000 miles long of course. ATC has no say in what other originations does or does not do. They work together with other branches and can only suggest what other does or does not do.

Am I being overly critical?
If I am right, is there anything we can do about it??

I feel the ATC is totally out of touch with what hikers want & need or simply doesn’t care, or worse is actively trying to be cruel. After all, look at what they did to Earl Schaffer. Inexcusable!!

How much time do you volunteer at ATC or suggest improvements to them? ATC and Earl Schaffer happen a long time ago. It is a mostly different staff. ATC did some things that I don’t agree with in the pass too but it is a different group of people there now. They should live in the mistakes of the pass for ever.

Wolf

[DavidNH]

Well first.. I think it is a GOOD thing that shelters face the prevaling wind. At least in summer. In Cold times of year.. wouldn't you prefer to sleep in a tent which is always warmer than a shelter? If it is buggy without wing.. a tent, preferably with lots of mesh, is always better. Shelters can be bug hell.

As for the steepness..that is how the AT is. Deal with it or hike elsewhere (outside of the northeast preferably).

as for lack of views.. well there are some views in fact lots of views in the smokies, and the mts of NH and ME. THere are views before the leaves come out down south. But isn't the beauty of the trees view in it self?

i see no reason to be mad at the ATC!

DavidNH

[weary]

.....as for lack of views.. well there are some views in fact lots of views in the smokies, and the mts of NH and ME. THere are views before the leaves come out down south. But isn't the beauty of the trees view in it self? i see no reason to be mad at the ATC!
DavidNH
I agree with everything David tells us -- even those parts I've edited out in the interests of band width -- or whatever.

But really. What some call "the long grewn tunnel" has in fact, millions of views. You just need to learn how to look and what is most interesting to look for.

REgardless, there is no absence of views on the trail, regardless of where.

Weary

[bamboo bob]

Wow. You know the AT isnt really for long distance hikers. There are not that many of us, it's built by and for the local people so we shouldn't whine about it. We get to use the sections and should be happy for it.

[ki0eh]

Here's an interesting article examining motivations for trail work: http://www.outdoors.org/publications/appalachia/2008/trail-work-tradeoffs.cfm

[Frosty]

Shelters - one doesn't need to stay in them so the prevaling wind issue is really a non issue.Sorry, this doesn't make sense to me. It's like saying, "You don't have to live in this country so politics are a non-issue."

[Skyline]

Sorry, this doesn't make sense to me. It's like saying, "You don't have to live in this country so politics are a non-issue."


I guess if you didn't like this country, or some issues about this country, you could just move to another country.

Or, you could stick around and try to make things better.

Same with the AT and its shelters.

Personally, I don't like to sleep in most shelters, tho camping a quarter mile or less away is often a good thing. In all 2175ish miles of the AT, I only tried to sleep in six of them and four of those were empty, nearly new, and clean. You can hike the whole AT and never stay in a shelter, with the possible exception of the Smokies. And when you're all done, you can get involved with a local trail maintaining club and work to make shelters and their nearby amenities better.

[weary]

.....You can hike the whole AT and never stay in a shelter, with the possible exception of the Smokies. And when you're all done, you can get involved with a local trail maintaining club and work to make shelters and their nearby amenities better.
Or for that matter, get involved before you go. Maintaining clubs are mostly made up of trail enthusiasts. Relatively few of the volunteers are thru hikers, or even thru hiker planners.

Weary www.matlt.org
www.matc.org