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bigmac_in
05-18-2008, 20:05
Took a short hike today on a trail here in Indiana I hadn't explored before - Browning Hill if you are interested. Nice hike. This post is more about the attached picture - my wife almost stepped on this black snake eating another smaller snake.

The question is - what kind of snake is being swallowed?

http://http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=24732&c=550


http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=24732&c=550

10-K
05-18-2008, 20:07
Looks like a copperhead.

bigmac_in
05-18-2008, 20:09
Looks like a copperhead.


That's what I thought, but they aren't too common around here.

canoehead
05-18-2008, 20:10
Black Racer & Copperhead, whats left anyway.

adamkrz
05-18-2008, 20:10
Looks like a timber rattler lost to a black rat snake, Not positive though..

Toolshed
05-18-2008, 20:11
the clear victor appears to be a rat (black Rat) Snake. The loser - A Hognose or a gopher snake?

10-K
05-18-2008, 20:16
That's what I thought, but they aren't too common around here.

I can see why. ;)

Cookerhiker
05-18-2008, 20:21
Not sure what kind of snake but what a great photo!! You gotta enter it into a photo contest somewhere. And what about submitting it to National Geographic or National Wildlife?

bigmac_in
05-18-2008, 20:28
Not sure what kind of snake but what a great photo!! You gotta enter it into a photo contest somewhere. And what about submitting it to National Geographic or National Wildlife?

Here's another one before I zoomed in.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=24742&c=550

Bare Bear
05-19-2008, 09:07
It is not uncommon for snakes to eat other snakes but what great fortune to get the photos!
The winner for all time award still has to got to the snake that ate the alligator that got killed by the alligator still alive inside down in the Glades. That photo came out just as I was starting my Florida Trail hike where the first 56 miles are wading more than walking. I sure was lonely out there for some company, or better bait??

Idealist
05-19-2008, 10:24
How cool!
I would venture… a Black Rat Snake (Elaphe obsolete) was feasting on an Eastern Hognose Snake (Heterodon platirhinos).

Erin
05-19-2008, 17:20
I agree with Idealist--the eatee looks like an eastern hognose. That is some big ratsnake and we get huge ones here in Mo. Great pic!

bigmac_in
05-19-2008, 20:15
I agree with Idealist--the eatee looks like an eastern hognose. That is some big ratsnake and we get huge ones here in Mo. Great pic!


After further research, I'm starting to agree with the Eastern Hognose ID, although the markings aren't exactly like what I've seen in pictures. Another option might be a fox snake, which is also found here in Indiana.

Blissful
05-19-2008, 20:19
Wow what a picture.

hurryinghoosier
05-20-2008, 09:08
Where is Browning Hill?

The Weasel
05-20-2008, 12:10
The tan snake is a Missasauga (sometimes spelled Massasauga) rattlesnake, which ranges throughout the Midwest and lower Ontario. It can be identified by the classic pit viper "triangle" head (clearly visible in your pictures) and the almost-diamond marks on its back and other markings. Hog snakes are very similar, but lack the pit viper head. "Missi's" are smaller than western rattlers, and I've often seen them in Michigan at about 1-2 feet, which is about what this one is. They are, of course, venomous, but I've had a couple of dry strikes into boots and shaken them off.

http://www.kwic.com/~pagodavista/schoolhouse/species/herps/ratlsnk.htm has a picture that is almost a twin to yours. Wikipedia's article on them is good. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massasauga

The black snake is almost certainly a Black Rat Snake. Again, Wikipedia has a good article, including a picture (go to the bottom) that is very close to yours. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaphe_obsoleta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaphe_obsoleta The) The article notes that Rat Snakes prey on other snakes, so this picture wouldn't be surprising, although it it very good.

Nice job.

musicwoman
05-20-2008, 12:21
I must be missing something...I don't see the head anywhere on the pics??

bigmac_in
05-20-2008, 12:42
Actually, you can't see the head of the brown colored snake, because it is mostly in the Black Snake's mouth. I thought the Missasauga was a possibility as well, and it IS native to this part of Indiana.

musicwoman
05-20-2008, 12:45
I sent the photo out to a friend of mine who is a herpetologist for ID. I hope thats ok.

bigmac_in
05-20-2008, 12:47
Where is Browning Hill?

Browning Hill (sometimes referred to as Browning Mountain) is south of Brown County State Park, near the lost town of Elkinsville. Elkinsville no longer exists - its inhabitants were displaced by the building of Monroe Reservoir many years ago. It is a nice climb to the top, and many people would call it a mountain after making the hike. Google it and you'll find out there is an arrangement of stones at the top that are sometimes referred to as "Indiana's Stonehenge".

PM me if you want detailed directions to the site.

bigmac_in
05-20-2008, 12:49
I sent the photo out to a friend of mine who is a herpetologist for ID. I hope thats ok.

Super - please let me know what he (or she) says.

musicwoman
05-20-2008, 13:00
Just got the response. It's an eastern hognose. He also sent it to another herpetologist who happens to have an interest in the eastern hognose, so its been double confirmed:)

musicwoman
05-20-2008, 13:02
By the way, he said this is an AWESOME photo!! :)

bigmac_in
05-20-2008, 13:07
Just got the response. It's an eastern hognose. He also sent it to another herpetologist who happens to have an interest in the eastern hognose, so its been double confirmed:)


Thanks Musicwoman!

I'd say that is a confirmation folks.

It sounds like I need to send this picture somewhere for publication. Any ideas?

musicwoman
05-20-2008, 13:11
If you don't mind, I will ask Matt if he could think of anyone who might want to utilize it.

musicwoman
05-20-2008, 13:36
Oh, btw, thought I should clarify, the snake chowing down in the photo is not a ratsnake, its a Racer. Interestingly enough, there is a study going on right now in upstate NY regarding the relationship between Racer's and Hognoses, the theory being that the racers' movements actually influence how the Hognose snakes move, because racers will feed on nearly any snake they can overpower.

sofaking
05-20-2008, 14:03
eastern no nose...

Erin
05-20-2008, 21:26
The amatuer I am shows . That back snake does not have the keeled scales of a black rat . That is the Biggest racer I have seen and our record in Mo is 52 inches and ours have a greenish cast to them and a yellow belly. We also get hognoses in a variety of colors...we are so close to Ark and OK.
If Indiana has a Conservation magazine or website such as Mo they would probably be very interested in the very cool pic.

Toolshed
05-20-2008, 21:29
Oh, btw, thought I should clarify, the snake chowing down in the photo is not a ratsnake, its a Racer. Interestingly enough, there is a study going on right now in upstate NY regarding the relationship between Racer's and Hognoses, the theory being that the racers' movements actually influence how the Hognose snakes move, because racers will feed on nearly any snake they can overpower.
Wow!! You're friend is good. A Black racer came to mind immeidately, but I confess, I confuse them with rat snakes (I think rats have 2 patterns, pure black and then adiamond like pattern on black, but I cannot recall). I have come across a few of them ove the years in Pest Control, but admittedly, I tink I probably confuse racer and rat often.

I do like weasels comment that he could tell by the viper head the other one was a Mississauga Rattler (Now that's funny), which growing up in the region we saw very few of, but always knew they were in the local swamps, er wetlands near the shores of Ontario.

musicwoman
05-20-2008, 21:33
Understandable. From what he told me, the difference is that a black rat will always have a white, or very light belly, the racer will not. I wasn't sure either until I sent him the photo:).

And Erin, you're right on, he mentioned that the Black Rat has keeled scales, rather than the smooth ones of the Racer in the photo.

Erin
05-20-2008, 22:04
Musicwoman, you will appreciate this. On our last hike one of my friends went behind a tree and screamed and came out with a shedded snake skin that was almost seven feet long. It was wierd looking but I assured her and our gruop we did not have any poisonous snakes that big here and the only snake that got that big was our bull snake. I also told her I wanted to see the head and anal plate to look in my book, because it was different looking. Some of the group thought we had some kind of freak snake in our site.
Joke was on me and everyone else. It was a cobra shed another friend brought from her job at the zoo and hid behind the tree. Joke on us!
:rolleyes:

musicwoman
05-20-2008, 22:21
Too funny!!
I am dying to get a photo of a Timber on the NY portion of the AT. I came about 20 seconds away a few weeks ago. Parked at the trailhead and my son and I were unloading our gear when someone said "rattlesnake!" about 20 yards away from us. I ran with the camera, but it had already slithered under a very large bush. Wasn't about to follow it:).