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RITBlake
05-19-2008, 16:53
While the rest of the AT world was dancing in Damascus, I was slackpacking a few nobo friends in New Jersey over the weekend.

I left High Point State Park confused and frustrated by the route that the AT takes. My point of contention is with the decision to have the AT bypass the High Point Monument. Yes there is a side trail, but....why have a nobo hiker climb that entire ridgeline within sight of the tower, but not have the trail actually take them to the mountain summit. Why is it a blue blaze? (the side trail isn't even mentioned in the ALDHA guide) I ask this because I had skipped the monument on my thru hike and after seeing it over the weekend, I know it would have been a pretty cool thing to have experienced. The view from the monument was absolutely amazing. You can see miles and miles of the New Jersey / New York countryside w/ unobstructed 360 degree views. Very comparable to Greylock.

It'd be the equivalent of the the trail getting to Lake Of The Clouds hut, and then bypassing the Mt. Washington summit.

Maybe there's a perfectly good reason for it, I don' t know, enlighten me

Alligator
05-19-2008, 17:01
What better use for an enormous phallic symbol other than as a major d***tease:D.

4eyedbuzzard
05-19-2008, 17:06
Having lived in NJ for some 20 years, I gave up trying to figure it all out and just escaped in '95.;)

Probably had something to do with the routing/impact or keeping the AT away from the busy, easily car accessed area. Who knows in NJ? So many lawyers, so many environmentalists, so much free time.:D

Appalachian Tater
05-19-2008, 17:28
Good question.

The Long Path climbs to the monument and then goes right through the middle of the monument parking lot. I guess one trail just can't go everywhere but it does seem sad to miss the highest point in the state.

Why don't you ask here (http://www.nynjtc.org/)? I would be interested in the answer.

To go off-topic, can you believe someone managed to steal and sell one of those doors?

max patch
05-19-2008, 17:28
Maybe there's a perfectly good reason for it, I don' t know, enlighten me

When the trail gets really close to a landmark -- and then uses a blue blaze to get there -- it really annoys me too.

The tower should be part of the AT. Great views, highest spot in NJ, and is a landmark worth visiting. I stopped by on my thru as it was mentioned in my guidebook so I was looking forward to taking a rest there.

As for a reason; there is (or at least used to be) an observation platform on the trail that pretty much had the same view. Maybe thats what they were thinking. But even still, the AT should go to the tower.

sasquatch2014
05-19-2008, 18:00
Given the inability for NJ to keep within their budget and the constant threats of closing parks maybe it is for the best that the trail is not right in the middle of it all.

I second Taters suggestion to shoot an e mail to the NYNJTC.

le loupe
05-19-2008, 18:15
again off topic but, what is slackpacking? I see the term used and am not sure what it refers to.

Its not in the glossary, either...

Cookerhiker
05-19-2008, 18:19
again off topic but, what is slackpacking? I see the term used and am not sure what it refers to.

Its not in the glossary, either...

I suggest you direct that question to Warren Doyle.;)

Appalachian Tater
05-19-2008, 18:26
again off topic but, what is slackpacking? I see the term used and am not sure what it refers to.

Its not in the glossary, either...Hiking carrying a daypack with snacks, water, emergency equipment, and a rainjacket instead of all your gear. Sometimes local outfitters or hostel owners will drop you off and pick you up. It's easier than carrying your own gear and you can make more miles.

STEVEM
05-19-2008, 19:17
For anyone who isn't familiar with High Point Monument:

http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/9/3/6/1/dsc_h9_i_475__small.jpg

max patch
05-19-2008, 19:19
Many times your pack is shuttled ahead to a hostel where you will catch up to it that evening.

Of course, if you overestimate your pace sans pack in the winter you just might have to bivouac in a public bathroom, as one of WB's most notable members was forced to do a couple years ago.

Blissful
05-19-2008, 19:47
I was disappointed it didn't go to the monument either. And I didn't see the side trail until I look up and I'd passed it. Oh well.

RITBlake
05-19-2008, 21:09
When the trail gets really close to a landmark -- and then uses a blue blaze to get there -- it really annoys me too.

The tower should be part of the AT. Great views, highest spot in NJ, and is a landmark worth visiting. I stopped by on my thru as it was mentioned in my guidebook so I was looking forward to taking a rest there.


Agree fully. So much of the AT is the 'green tunnel' When you have the very rare chance to send a hiker to a remarkable monument, with an amazing, three state view, why not do it? Why send them within sight of it and then lead them off the mountain the opposite way.

A few pics below of the view from high point monument:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2015/2444417318_6d27ce3e51.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/25/44501992_6dc591efb8.jpg?v=0

Peaks
05-20-2008, 07:22
Likewise, why is Clingman's Dome, the highest point on the AT, not on the AT?

Tin Man
05-20-2008, 07:29
Maybe they didn't want any hikers spreading their special fragrance and scaring the tourists away?

sofaking
05-20-2008, 07:37
Likewise, why is Clingman's Dome, the highest point on the AT, not on the AT?
so cry baby hikers won't whine about elevation gains.

Flush2wice
05-20-2008, 09:24
Take the blue blaze if you want to see it.

Alligator
05-20-2008, 09:35
Maybe the NJ park doesn't want to lose control of the monument. Placing the trail right by it might create jurisdiction issues with NPS, real or imagined.

DavidNH
05-20-2008, 09:43
well what is stopping you or anyone else from taking the short side trail to the highpoint monument? If you are too busy hiking north to take any side trails to scenic spots..that is your fault, not the AT's fault.

In defense of New Jersey AT.. Let me say that what really makes NJ a nice section is that it is NOT PA. Less road crossings, fewer rockes, no knife edges, prettier towns, less dull, and finally, NJ isn't PA!

DavidNH (Snickers)

jersey joe
05-20-2008, 09:46
I completely agree RITBLAKE. I would be all for the AT going right past the monument. I've been to the monument before(and since) so I didn't take the side trail on my thru hike. It is a shame that a lot of thru hikers pass right by...

jersey joe
05-20-2008, 09:49
well what is stopping you or anyone else from taking the short side trail to the highpoint monument? If you are too busy hiking north to take any side trails to scenic spots..that is your fault, not the AT's fault.
Part of the problem with this logic is that there are too many blue blazes to take all of them and the hiker doesn't know exactly what to expect when taking a blue blaze. In this case, the side trail DOES say monument, but it does not say "killer three state view".

Alligator
05-20-2008, 09:51
How far is the blue blaze and is it signed reasonably? I don't remember, I'd already been up the monument so I skipped it.

Alligator
05-20-2008, 09:54
Part of the problem with this logic is that there are too many blue blazes to take all of them and the hiker doesn't know exactly what to expect when taking a blue blaze. In this case, the side trail DOES say monument, but it does not say "killer three state view".OK, I didn't see this when I posted.

jersey joe
05-20-2008, 09:57
Besides trail signs, you can see the monument sticking out of the trees, it's no secret that it is there.

ofthearth
05-20-2008, 09:57
I suggest you direct that question to Warren Doyle.;)

Funny, I was thinking the same thing and had to lol when I saw this one.

RITBlake
05-20-2008, 09:57
well what is stopping you or anyone else from taking the short side trail to the highpoint monument? If you are too busy hiking north to take any side trails to scenic spots..that is your fault, not the AT's fault.


Nothing is stopping you. However, in my guidebook, the side trail wasn't even marked. And as someone else said, you can easily walk right by the side trail. It doesn't make sense to come so close to the top and then skirt off to the side.

On my TH, we approached the monument from the North (SOBO) and we skipped the side trail assuming that the trail would logically lead to the monument. It didn't and I wasn't about to walk back to it in the 90 humid NJ heat.

ofthearth
05-20-2008, 10:03
For anyone who isn't familiar with High Point Monument:

http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/9/3/6/1/dsc_h9_i_475__small.jpg

Wow, that's impressive!!!

paradoxb3
05-20-2008, 13:06
When the trail gets really close to a landmark -- and then uses a blue blaze to get there -- it really annoys me too.

but that wouldnt be fair. if the AT was rerouted to all the blue blazed locations, LW would have nowhere to hike :D

earlyriser26
05-20-2008, 13:25
Likewise, why is Clingman's Dome, the highest point on the AT, not on the AT?
It is on the AT. I don't count 50 feet as not on the trail.:D

LIhikers
05-20-2008, 15:19
It's not as if you can miss seeing the monument. If you want a closer look just walk up there, geesh.

the goat
05-20-2008, 15:25
What better use for an enormous phallic symbol other than as a major d***tease:D.

ahahahaahhaha, now that's funny!:D

RITBlake
05-20-2008, 15:38
It's not as if you can miss seeing the monument. If you want a closer look just walk up there, geesh.

That's not the point. The point is that it's dumb for the trail to come so close to it, but then skip it.

sofaking
05-20-2008, 15:51
a sobo thru hiker is just like a nobo thru hiker, with the whining and complaining.

RITBlake
05-20-2008, 15:53
a sobo thru hiker is just like a nobo thru hiker, with the whining and complaining.

not whining, just pointing out stupid decisions

Cookerhiker
05-20-2008, 16:35
By the same token, why doesn't the AT cross the summit of Mt. Rogers?

It's been a long time since I hiked there but I remember it was a side trail. Per the Companion, it's .5 mile.

max patch
05-20-2008, 16:41
By the same token, why doesn't the AT cross the summit of Mt. Rogers?

It's been a long time since I hiked there but I remember it was a side trail. Per the Companion, it's .5 mile.

I wondered about that also. There isn't a view up there, but its still the highest point in the state. I remember wondering why in the world did I have to take a blue blaze to get there. Trail should go there.

UCONNMike
05-21-2008, 15:12
While the rest of the AT world was dancing in Damascus, I was slackpacking a few nobo friends in New Jersey over the weekend.

I was with Blake slack packing our NOBO friends and he and I had a long discussion about this, and the more we talked about it, the more annoyed I became. He couldn't have done a better job describing the High Point Monument, the 360 degree views are amazing. We were up there on a partly cloudy day and the views were still comparable to that of Graylock and prob one of the best 5 to 10 views you get on the AT North of the Shannedohs. If I remember correctly it is about a mile and a bit to go form the AT up to the Monument, so that would make for a 2 + mile detour, and without any knowledge of the location you would assume it is nothing special, just another goofy side trail stop. It makes no sense for the AT to not go all the way to the top, you are already within the borders of the State Forest / Park. The trail send you up enough pointless peaks with no views, and this seems like a no brainer for the trail to be re-routed.

The State of NJ has always gotten a bad rap, and having the trail pass up to the top of the High Point would only help the State promote itself. not only is their stunning 360 views, but there is a cool monument, that I believe you can go inside and climb to the top of, but just below the peak of the mt. there is a large lake with a sandy beach and some sort of bathhouse/concessions stand, along with a huge area for picnics and several bathrooms. High Point State Park could become a "Trail Destination," a can't miss for hikers. It could become the sort of trail stop that you would plan to be their in the afternoon, so you can eat lunch, go swimming, check out the views, climb to the top of the monument, etc...

But instead, the trail skirts around it, and I'm sure that 90% or more of the thru hikers don't bother to head up to the top.

I am currently a member of the NY/NJ Trail Confrence as well as the ATC, and I plan on writing them and voicing the same opinion, and of course I will let you know what comes of that. I just see this as an opportunity to enhance the Appalachian Trail experience, and I hope that they will see it the same way.

minnesotasmith
05-21-2008, 15:49
Many times your pack is shuttled ahead to a hostel where you will catch up to it that evening.

Of course, if you overestimate your pace sans pack in the winter you just might have to bivouac in a public bathroom, as one of WB's most notable members was forced to do a couple years ago.

That member didn't "overestimate his pace". He hiked to his planned endpoint for the day, and subsequently in well over an hour of remaining daylight could not get a hitch. Then, darkness and a windy rain around freezing point came... :eek::rolleyes: Hasn't this (not getting a hitch when there was plenty of traffic) happened during other thruhikes?

sasquatch2014
05-21-2008, 20:22
I hope to have a chance to sit down and meet with the director of the NY NJ Trail conference in the next week or so and depending how our conversation goes maybe I will discuss this with him as well.

Frosty
05-21-2008, 21:11
Likewise, why is Clingman's Dome, the highest point on the AT, not on the AT?Or Mt Rogers, or Eisenhower? If they can tack on the totally useless Pond Flats, and make a giant circle in southern NC to catch Standing Indian and Albert, why can't they send thruhikers up the Flume Slide Trail in Franconia Notch, and extend the Franconia Ridge segment, one of the best on the trail IMO. Flume Slide is a tough trail, but no worse going up it than it is coming down Wildcat A.

Pokey2006
05-21-2008, 21:22
Having lived in NJ for some 20 years, I gave up trying to figure it all out and just escaped in '95.;)

Reminds me of a t-shirt I saw a waitress wearing in TN over the weekend: "New Jersey -- only the strong survive."

RITBlake
05-21-2008, 21:32
I hope to have a chance to sit down and meet with the director of the NY NJ Trail conference in the next week or so and depending how our conversation goes maybe I will discuss this with him as well.

That would be terrific. It seems like a very doable reroute especially if the long path already runs up and over the summit.

Tin Man
05-21-2008, 22:35
That's not the point. The point is that it's dumb for the trail to come so close to it, but then skip it.

I like your signature line...

"A SOBO thru hike is just like a NOBO thru hike but without the crowds and the complaining "

Are you sure you weren't a NOBO? 'Cause you are certainly NOBO with comments like this. :D

RITBlake
05-21-2008, 23:25
I like your signature line...

"A SOBO thru hike is just like a NOBO thru hike but without the crowds and the complaining "

Are you sure you weren't a NOBO? 'Cause you are certainly NOBO with comments like this. :D



a sobo thru hiker is just like a nobo thru hiker, with the whining and complaining.

not whining, just pointing out stupid decisions

A-Train
05-21-2008, 23:26
I like your signature line...

"A SOBO thru hike is just like a NOBO thru hike but without the crowds and the complaining "

Are you sure you weren't a NOBO? 'Cause you are certainly NOBO with comments like this. :D

A SOBO thru-hike is just like a Nobo thru hike but without the amazing climatic summit at the end. :)

Tin Man
05-21-2008, 23:34
not whining, just pointing out stupid decisions

Many decisions appear stupid if you don't know how what's behind them. Personally, I don't try to second guess other people's decisions unless I know the background and participated in the process.

Besides, I was just messing with ya. ;)

RITBlake
05-21-2008, 23:41
Many decisions appear stupid if you don't know how what's behind them. Personally, I don't try to second guess other people's decisions unless I know the background and participated in the process.

Besides, I was just messing with ya. ;)

1st - Good point! I guess I started this thread to find out the reason behind the decision. There could be a totally logical and intelligent reason for routing the trail around the monument.

2nd - I know! :)

Askus3
05-22-2008, 00:42
U Conn Mike: I checked my records and saw that it took five minutes to go up the spur trail to the summit from the junction with the AT. Definitely alot shorter than two miles, proably closer to 1/4 mile.

My altimeter showed an elevation gain of 190 feet. So a short well-signed spur trail is adequate and OK. I think everyone should be aware of blue side trails that they pass and where they go to: springs, shelters, road crossings, parking areas, view points, waterfalls, etc. Then they can decide for themselves whether to visit or not. For me if the weather is nice a short climb up a spur trail to a mountain summit view is worth it, but if it is an ugly day, why add to my hike for a shlep to a high point to get a 360 degree view of the fog! If it is lunch time and it is raining and I know there is a pavilion or shelter, I might go the half-mile to get out of the elements for awhile.

But on the flip side of the coin: Are you aware that the AT did not go to the top of Mt. Washington!?!?! "The Trinity Heights Connector was created to allow the AT to make a loop over the summit of Mt. Washington; formerly the true summit was a side trip, albeit a very short one, from the AT, so technically the AT did not pass over it." (quote from AMCs White Mountain Guide) Now this trail is only .2 mile in length the same as the spur to the summit of High Point, NJ. So if Mt. Washington can now be on the AT, why not High Point, NJ? a reroute of the trail to reach a high summit has been done before so we are not talking even setting precedent!

Bare Bear
05-22-2008, 06:04
I know some thrus that skip every 'view blaze' as they just get fixated on getting from Point A to Point B as fast as possible. I know I argued in vain for days trying to get other thrus to go to the Kammerer Fire Tower and I was the only one that I know that took the time. I was glad I did, I may never go that way again. BUT it was my hike so I do not have any problem with others doing their hike their way.

jersey joe
05-22-2008, 14:26
I wrote an email to the NY/NJ Trail Conference Chairman on why the AT doesn't go past high point monument. Here is the response...

"I'm not sure why originally this route was chosen. I see no need for the
trail to pass directly through the monument area. It is just a short
hike to the monument from the trail for those wishing to see it. It
avoids bringing the trail in near the park roads and public areas any
more than we need to. "

RITBlake
05-22-2008, 14:50
Thanks JJ, can you PM me his/her contact info?

Alligator
05-22-2008, 14:52
Translation-It keeps those stinky thru-hikers away from the tourons:D.

sasquatch2014
05-22-2008, 17:51
This fits the basic idea of trying when possible to keep the trail off the roads. this is part of the same reason, along with the basic poor condition of the trail, for the massive several year project that the NY/NJ trail conference is doing on Bear Mt. for more info on this see the website for the trail club. www.nynjtc.org

UCONNMike
05-23-2008, 13:44
It avoids bringing the trail in near the park roads and public areas any more than we need to. "

I find that very curious...b/c you cross right over the main road right at teh entrance to the state park, and you also go right along side the visitors center. So if they wanted to keep you away from public areas, why would you put them right in front of the parks main center for visitor information??? That is a bogus answer, and if keeping them off roads for saftey is a concern, then I'll make sure to tell this SOB to build a walkway over the palisades parkway in NY, because that is like playing real life frogger. It's so typical for soem who has never thru hiked to say, oh its a sort hike to teh monumnet, yea its an extra 2-3 miles added on my day to go up to the monument, and if you had never seen it or had not been told it was cool with great views, etc... you just blow right past it. You get burned too many times on side trails that go to mediocre points of interest

UCONNMike
05-23-2008, 13:51
Oh an anoher thing, that whole argument he makes is totally bunk, b/c take a look at Bear Mt.!!!!! They walk you thru and freakin public zoo! and then take you up to the peak, where you walk along the car road to the top, where there is monument with regular folks up there to check it out. This guy is a real piece of work to feed you that BS about saftey and keepign you from teh public. All the crap in NY and NJ that is totally worthless and puts you on raods, around more and more people, take you to worthless mt tops, and this gem, this diamond in the rough lays dormant, its a damn tragedy that they feel the need to deprive a thru hiker of High Point State Park.

UCONNMike
05-23-2008, 14:07
I don't mean to be so angry, I just really see an opportunity here, and I don't want it to be slid under the rug. I just didn't think that the representative that emailed gave it much thought.

sofaking
05-23-2008, 14:50
cry, cry, cry

Groucho
05-24-2008, 05:02
By the same token, why doesn't the AT cross the summit of Mt. Rogers?

It's been a long time since I hiked there but I remember it was a side trail. Per the Companion, it's .5 mile.

When the AT was rerouted from the present Iron Mountain Trail in the early 70's it crossed the summit. It was moved to protect the summit from overuse.

The AT also slabbed the N side of Wilburn Ridge for many year instead of following the scenic ridge. It has been relocated at least two times since then.

sasquatch2014
05-24-2008, 07:40
Oh an anoher thing, that whole argument he makes is totally bunk, b/c take a look at Bear Mt.!!!!! They walk you thru and freakin public zoo! and then take you up to the peak, where you walk along the car road to the top, where there is monument with regular folks up there to check it out. This guy is a real piece of work to feed you that BS about saftey and keepign you from teh public. All the crap in NY and NJ that is totally worthless and puts you on raods, around more and more people, take you to worthless mt tops, and this gem, this diamond in the rough lays dormant, its a damn tragedy that they feel the need to deprive a thru hiker of High Point State Park.

First off I see one of your two address's is for NJ so if you are not a member of the local club that has been given the responsibility for the trail in NJ and NY you should join. Secondly as I posted before you need to look at the work that they are doing on Bear MT. They have a 5-6 year project going on that will knock out almost all of the road sections going up the mountain. I agree that something needs done with the Parkway however now you have taken things well out of the scope of what the trail conference can do on its own and now you have to involve the parkway commission and tell them that you want to put a bridge over the road that will cost in the millions. It will happen someday but not anytime soon. The guy who took the time to quickly email back happens to be the head of the Conference and took the helm not al that long ago so we will have to see what changes he brings about, so far they have been pretty good.

rickb
05-24-2008, 10:59
I feel the same way about the AT not going over Mount Height in the Carter-Moriah Range. No good reason (historical or otherwise) for that. Its the best introductory view of the Presidentials for a SOBO.

I think you have a valid point.

You could have had it worse, though. I blew past Harpers Ferry (then on a blue blaze) because I didn't know what was there. They did a reroute to fix that. I am thinking that your monument used to be on the AT proper. Not sure.

The AT should absolutely be routed past the High Point Monument.

Alligator
05-24-2008, 11:16
I think Kerosene has a picture of himself from his younger days at High Point? He might know from that time period.

Yes he does, his picture is here. (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=65&catid=searchresults&searchid=15260)

jersey joe
05-24-2008, 13:21
The guy who took the time to quickly email back happens to be the head of the Conference and took the helm not al that long ago so we will have to see what changes he brings about, so far they have been pretty good.
I am going to have to defend the head of the Conference here too. He replied to my email very quickly and gave a thoughtful answer to my question.(And he was happy to engage me in subsequent emails) And as sasquatch pointed out, he had nothing to do with the original routing of the trail and has not been in the position very long. I understand some of your frustration here Uconnmike, but come on, give this guy a break!