How much "original" AT left?

[Programbo]

Following a thread in another forum got me to wondering..If one wanted to how much of the route that Earl Shaffer hiked on his Walking with Spring is still part of the AT as it exists today?...And if some parts are no longer a part of the official AT how much of that could still be hiked on?

[Hikes in Rain]

I've only hiked from Springer through the Smokies (by this time next week!), so that's all I can directly confirm, but I recognize the points Earl mentions in that section. One of the things I found fascinating is that the firetowers were manned in Earl's time, usually inviting him for dinner and a night's stay under roof. Most of those towers are gone now.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

In GA & NC, much of the old AT is now the BMT

[Hikes in Rain]

Really? Hmm...I see a "classic hike" in the making. I'd resurrect some of my older hiking and camping gear, except I'm still using it.

[warren doyle]

In GA & NC, much of the old AT is now the BMT

Now that is another example of WB erroneous information.

[ki0eh]

There was a fellow who presented at the last ATC Biennial Meeting in NJ, who was tracking relocations based on every edition of all the old guides. I attended that session and it seemed like he had done an amazing amount of compilation work, and probably has since been helped by the input from the veterans at that session (no, I don't count myself as a "veteran", that room was full of legends). It would be a non-trivial but ultimately very rewarding exercise to transform that compilation through GIS into something accessible through Google Earth. Unfortunately I myself have volunteered for too many trail GIS things as it is. I wonder how that effort's going - anyone here have more info?

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Now that is another example of WB erroneous information.So enlighten us misguided heathens, old great and wonderful fount of knowledge - or do you only show up to snipe?

[Lauriep]

Probably only 10 or 20 percent of the current A.T. is still on the original route, especially if you mean the actual treadway. Some places the A.T. is still generally in the same place, but there are now switchbacks where the A.T. used to go straight up (for example the Stecoahs, Weverton in Maryland, and many, many others in the South where the ATC Konnarock crew has put in sidehill switchback). Whenever you are walking switchbacks, look for the faint remains of a steep trail cutting straight down the mountain between the switchbacks and that's probably the old A.T.

Also, a lot of the original A.T. was on paved roads, country roads, woods roads, tote roads, and even followed telephone lines.

Some places have been re-routed 4 times or more. That's true in Harpers Ferry and parts of central and southwest Virginia and many other places.

Laurie P.
ATC

[sherrill]

Now that is another example of WB erroneous information.

Warren, I agree with FD - if she is mistaken please elaborate. I, for one, would like for you to share your knowledge of the "old" AT in NC.

Otherwise, this sort of comment doesn't contribute to the conversation and diminishes your boasts of "educator".

[max patch]

I disagree with much of what Warren says, but some of you people would jump up and criticize him if he said that the sun was going to set in the west.

For those who don't understand the difference between the Benton MacKaye and the Appalachian Trails take a look at this map:

http://www.bmta.org/pdfs/BMT-OverviewMap.pdf

Now anyone want to say that most of the BMT is the old AT?

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Laurie, first, thank you for taking time out of your busy day to comment here.

Second, are there any maps of the original AT available in a digital format that could be shared for comparison purposes?
Probably only 10 or 20 percent of the current A.T. is still on the original route, especially if you mean the actual treadway. Some places the A.T. is still generally in the same place, but there are now switchbacks where the A.T. used to go straight up (for example the Stecoahs, Weverton in Maryland, and many, many others in the South where the ATC Konnarock crew has put in sidehill switchback). Whenever you are walking switchbacks, look for the faint remains of a steep trail cutting straight down the mountain between the switchbacks and that's probably the old A.T.

Also, a lot of the original A.T. was on paved roads, country roads, woods roads, tote roads, and even followed telephone lines.

Some places have been re-routed 4 times or more. That's true in Harpers Ferry and parts of central and southwest Virginia and many other places.

Laurie P.
ATC

[Alligator]

I disagree with much of what Warren says, but some of you people would jump up and criticize him if he said that the sun was going to set in the west.
...Warren never mentions the innumerable times folks on WB have provided factual, helpful information when a question has been asked. In fact he goes out of his way to paint the site in a poor light when daily folks are readily helped with logistical questions. When was the last time he took the time to help someone here? And I mean honest help, where he is not trying to impose his own value system on to the recipient?

His way or the highway is not an education it is indoctrination.

[Almost There]

The BMT from Springer to where it splits off after Long Creek Falls is original AT, that I am aware this is the only place where the BMT is the original AT in Georgia. You can still see cut blazes on some trees in this section along the BMT.

[Jack Tarlin]

LaurieP:

Thanx for your comment, which as always, contains useful, well-written, and helpful information.

For those of you who don't know, Laurie has worked for the ATC for many years, being the Trail's "Information Specialist."

And she's very good at it, too.

[Frosty]

So enlighten us misguided heathens, old great and wonderful fount of knowledge - or do you only show up to snipe?Does this mean that you are still saying the old AT is now the BMT?

Or are you just mad because you are wrong and someone said so?

I'm kind of curious about whether the BMT is the old AT or not.

[Cookerhiker]

If I'm not mistaken, the very first white blazes (not counting existing trails like the LT and the Whites) were laid out in Harriman Park. I don't know how much of the current AT there is original but once certainty: the Bear Mountain bridge is!

The massive trail project on Bear Mountain likely means a different treadway but as Laurie says, it's still generally in the area i.e. the trail will still go over Bear Mountain.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Does this mean that you are still saying the old AT is now the BMT?

Or are you just mad because you are wrong and someone said so?

I'm kind of curious about whether the BMT is the old AT or not.Not upset at all that someone said I was wrong, but do wish the person would state the route if he knows it.

It is my understanding (feel free to correct me if I am wrong by giving accurate info) that large portions of the originally proposed routes for the AT are currently part of the BMT and that the route was substantially change between 1951 and 1986. It is my understanding that the original route went to Brasstown bald and continued north from there on an old road that connected fire towers to a portion of the old dirt Tellico road (now paved and known as the Cherohala Skyway - TN 165 / NC 143) and connected to the current BMT thru the current Slickrock Wilderness to where it entered the area that later became the GSMNP very near the NC / TN state line near Deals Gap (on US Highway 129), NC instead of the current entry at Fontana Dam. It continued on generally following an old state boundary trail and power line road before joining the current route in the vicinity of Doe Knob.

I have seen some of the old White Blazes chipped into trees and then painted in the area around near Deals Gap. The AT followed the same route as the BMT southbound from Deals Gap , used the bridge near the Cheoah Dam to cross the river and then entered the Slickrock Wilderness.

[General Fireball]

I would say that here in New Jersey, about 25 percent of the trail is in its original location, another 25 percent is in roughly its original location, and half is nowhere near its original location. In the Water Gap, the trail was frequently re-routed over the years. On Kittatinny Ridge, the trail follows its originally route generally, and in some cases I think still uses the same treadway. From the bottom of High Point mountain all the way over to the New York State line, the trail is almost completely new, dating from the late 80s through the present, when the long roadwalks were eliminated and the trail moved on to its own corridor. For about a quarter mile, near Warwick Turnpike the trail does actually follow its original late 20s route.

[chili36]

I would want to see the old maps depicting the "old route" before I made any representations (either way) as to how much of the "old" AT and the BMT are the same.

Two very contrasting opinions on whether it is or isn't and, quite frankly, not much to substantiate either.

I did appreciate LaureP's comments, however.

[oso loco]

Following a thread in another forum got me to wondering..If one wanted to how much of the route that Earl Shaffer hiked on his Walking with Spring is still part of the AT as it exists today?...And if some parts are no longer a part of the official AT how much of that could still be hiked on?

In Md, VA and PA there have been a lot of relos over the years - some good, some not so good. But it is what it is.

Many of those relos are overgrown and no longer visible or easily followable. But there are exceptions.

Some years ago, Ginny and I were tasked with scouting the St Anthony's Wilderness section for the first color AT map for PA. Meaning we got to hike ALL the trails, side trails, goat tracks, etc in that section. there are a gaggle of them - many of them blazed colors like purple, green, black, etc.

But one of them is - or at least at that time, was - still blazed white. It was the "OLD" AT that I first hiked in 1953. And it was still hikeable. That was a trip into the past for me. :)

BTW - most of the side trails for St Anthony's don't show up on the AT map. The PA Game Commission refused to allow them to be shown on the map. :-?

[Lauriep]

Dino,

I've never seen any digital maps of early routes of the A.T. (but I'll ask our GIS guy if any have been done). Some of the early maps cover huge areas there only give the broadest of outlines. For example, the official map of the A.T. for southern Virginia (produced by PATC--that probably meant "Myron Avery") covered from the Tennessee border to about Roanoke.

The first digitization of the A.T. route in any wholesale fashion was done by Del-Doc in 1999.

Laurie

[rafe]

I'm with Warren in questioning FD's assertion about the "old" AT in GA/NC now being the BMT. That's wrong, I'm pretty sure.

Nothing I've read over the years has hinted at that. On the contrary -- Springer, Blood Mountain, Neels, Low Gap, Dick's Creek, Tray Mtn, Albert Mtn, Wayah Bald, Wesser, Fontana, etc -- these were all mentioned in the "ancient" AT diaries from the Rodale Press journals (and most of those journals were dated even at the time of the book's publishing, in 1975.)

The trail did start at Mt. Oglethorpe at one point, but something about a chicken farm, so now it's Springer. :D

PS, to Programbo: Good thread! I enjoy the "ancient history" of the AT. I think I could guess where the AT has changed very little, and that would be in the major National Parks and Forests, eg. WMNF, SMNP, SNP. Some of those trails were blazed with great effort by the CCC and WPA projects in the 1930s.

Nearly all of the roadwalks have been eliminated. The major relos that I can think of have been relocations off of roads, eg. Pond Mtn., Cumberland PA, Wallkill, NY/NJ.

[Tennessee Viking]

Didn't the original start on Olgethrope before being moved to Springer?

A lot of the original AT in my clubs section either started as road route or has been converted to Forest Service Trail.

I know some of the original trail on Unaka was actually USFS 230. Then the trail did some quirky jumps from outside Elizabethton. Jumped from Iron Mtn and dropped down Stoney Creek Valley and up Holston Mtn.

[emerald]

The AT in The Green Diamond incorporates many features of the original AT completed by BMECC in 1930. The tread may be at precisely the same location in some places. Berks is rich in AT history and a worthwhile destination for those who value and seek it.

In particular, Pilger Ruh and the monument there honoring Danny Hoch's contributions and Rentschler Marker come to mind. These sites are the locations of 2 early AT shelters, called cabins in those days, Applebee and Rentschler respectively.

Mr. Applebee's wife provided funds to purchase land and materials for Applebee Cabin as a memorial to her husband. Their remains are interred in a church cemetery a few hundred yards from where I post and often walk.

The present AT also passes near the site of Hertlein Cabin and the concrete pad on which it rested. The treadway is quite near the original location if not in its precise location there also.

AT history enthusiasts should not miss the opportunity to visit the northernmost point of The Green Diamond when hiking on the Berks AT. Tri-County Corner where Berks, Schuylkill and Lehigh Counties meet marks the location from which Harry Rentschler led the first trail clearing party in 1926. This point is on a short blue-blaze not far north of Eckville.

[emerald]

I wonder if Programbo may have been referring to the thread where I posted on Earl's reference in Walking with Spring to "the road of many colors." Today, portions of it are now limestone rather than shale, but it can still be walked and it's rare to encounter a vehicle since it's gated at all points of entry and only open to the public on rare occasions.

I walked it about a year ago and visited the site of Ney's Shelter and Ox Spring. Ney's Shelter was replaced by Eagle's Nest Shelter and dismantled by a crew comprised at least in part by ALDHA members 20 years ago.

[Alligator]

Dino,

I've never seen any digital maps of early routes of the A.T. (but I'll ask our GIS guy if any have been done). Some of the early maps cover huge areas there only give the broadest of outlines. For example, the official map of the A.T. for southern Virginia (produced by PATC--that probably meant "Myron Avery") covered from the Tennessee border to about Roanoke.

The first digitization of the A.T. route in any wholesale fashion was done by Del-Doc in 1999.

LaurieIf there was an old map with the AT route and a reasonable scale, the map could be scanned, control points added, and then the map would be usable in a GIS. I'm not suggesting this be done, only that given an older map, the information could be digitized.

This new digitized map would have the original map's inaccuracies plus the potential for some additional error as a result of the georeferencing.

[Gray Blazer]

Wolf Ridge, Twenty Mile Trail, Long Hugry Ridge Trail are the trails that show up online when I look at the GSMNP clickable map. Those are the closest trails to Deal's Gap. Are any of those the old AT Route?

I'm looking at a 1971 Dept of the Interior Geological Survey map of the Western Half of the park and The AT is marked along the NC/TN line and it seems to follow it past Doe Knob on to Buck Gap, Forge Knob, Rich Gap, Gregory Bald, Parson Bald, Dalton Gap and on down to Deals Gap. Would that be the old AT route?

I also have a 1956 US Govt Printing Office, USDA-Forest Service Map of the Pisgah National Forest that shows the AT kinda heading NE from Unaka and doesn't show it going over Roan or by the Wautuga Lake. It also shows it hitting the Nolichucky River NOBO and heading South and crossing the river about a mile from the stateline and joining up with the stateline.
Other than that it shows it going over Camp Creek and Max Patch.

Now I'm looking at a 1971 Mileage fact sheet put out by the ATC. I'm mostly familiar with GA/NC/TN and most of it looks the same. A few new shelters now and of course some relos. It says lodging in season no water available at Neels Gap in the winter.

It also says the post master in Damascus is very friendly to hikers.:-?

The interesting remarks are about the Kennebec.
North bound Hikers should make arrangements at Bigelow Village or at East Carry Pond Camps. Caratunk Maine who will ferry hikers across the Kennebec River. Those performing ferry service (as of 1971) and the rates charged are:

(1) William York has boat $5.00 per trip.

(2) At times it is possible to ford the stream.

My 1971 Chattahoochee National Forest Map shows the same route as today as far as I can tell. No Blue Mountain Lean-to, a lean-to at Addis Gap, no lean-to at Deep Gap.

Whoever said follow the old trails over straight over the mountain was right. I have a pic in my WB gallery of an old blaze on the old AT going right over Rocky Bald in the Nantahalas. It is now a blue blaze trail with a nice camping spot on top.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

I'm with Warren in questioning FD's assertion about the "old" AT in GA/NC now being the BMT. That's wrong, I'm pretty sure.

Nothing I've read over the years has hinted at that. On the contrary -- Springer, Blood Mountain, Neels, Low Gap, Dick's Creek, Tray Mtn, Albert Mtn, Wayah Bald, Wesser, Fontana, etc -- these were all mentioned in the "ancient" AT diaries from the Rodale Press journals (and most of those journals were dated even at the time of the book's publishing, in 1975.)
.....................
Nearly all of the roadwalks have been eliminated. The major relos that I can think of have been relocations off of roads, eg. Pond Mtn., Cumberland PA, Wallkill, NY/NJ.Terrapin's post brings up something I want to clear up - I am not saying the the entire current BMT is part of the original AT. If you look at the history of the BMT, it has it's own set of relos. In the beginning, the BMT and AT were the same trail in the south because this was Benton MacKaye's baby -- the Siamese twins were separated and each has grown in differing ways as things like relos to avoid AT road walks, encroaching civilization and erosion, etc. have made the trails move. Neither trail is where it was in the 1930s and 40s.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Many thanks to Shades of Grey for his added info. People with direct knowledge of the trail please add your knowledge to this thread.

I received a PM asking where my info came from. My former father-in-law (1921 to 1995) was in the CCC in 1938-1942. Though my marriage to his son did not survive, we developed a deep and abiding friendship that survived the divorce (He was also a close friend to He-Dino long before we were together) My FIL helped build some of the old AT trail and he and I walked along parts of the route he remembered in late 1980's and early 1990s. He showed me many old blazes along routes.

Gray Blazer asked about the current trails in the area - the old AT did not use those - it used instead an old boundary trail that followed the state line between NC and TN and an old horse trail / road that went from fire tower to fire tower (meaning peak to peak) in areas where the state line went into the valleys. This is why old maps show the AT going along a very different route than today.

The Cheoah Overlook subdivision sets atop where the AT used to cross US 129 near Deals Gap on the northern side. My FIL took me there before the subdivision was built and showed me some of the old blazes. We walked for a couple of miles down that road (which became a trail) and took a side path on the left (marked by two stone cairns) to a power line road that crossed the fire tower trail. We continued on the fire tower trail, but my FIL was not able to go on. We rested and returned.

[max patch]

Terrapin's post brings up something I want to clear up - I am not saying the the entire current BMT is part of the original AT.

You said "most" which is what got this discussion started.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Max Patch, I'm not trying to stir up controversy. What I'd like to see is us each bringing the knowledge we have together and arriving at the truth about the original AT route.

[Gray Blazer]

Thanks, FD. That's some cool stuff right there.

[warren doyle]

You said "most" which is what got this discussion started.

Precisely. As well as stating two states (GA & NC). A more accurate term would be 'a little' rather than 'most'.

Some thru-hikers know that the NC section of the AT (as it intertwines with the TN border up to the Doll Flats/Elk River area north of the Roan Highlands) is a considerable distance north of the northern terminus of the BMT in the Davenport Gap area.

Erroneous information it was. We have enough of that in the real world.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

WD, do you have any knowledge at all of the original (meaning prior to the 1960's massive relos) AT route in GA and NC / TN? If so, please state where the original route went.

[Alligator]

http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

[emerald]

This thread encompasses one topic among few here of genuine interest to me. I'd like to see it go on without the acrimony if at all possible.:rolleyes: I can't see how it's essential or adding anything useful.

Post your facts, your maps and tell us what your specific arguments rest upon and spare us the rest please.:welcome

Oh, and Gray Blazer, if your reference to the postmaster at Damascus pertains to Pasc(h)al Grindstaff, I will vouche for him. One of the most kind and helpful people to AT hikers in 1980 without a doubt based upon my personal experience. I learned from LW some time ago he has passed away along with some of the other Damascus elders so helpful to hikers in those days.

Maybe the only other person who helped me more besides my parents was Warren Doyle, but he sure can be a PITA and I'm certain almost everyone will agree I don't need to post anything to prove my point.

Alligator, I'm off to Hawk Mountain. I'll probably enjoy my day off more there. I need an attitude adjustment and don't expect to find one here.;)

[rafe]

WD, do you have any knowledge at all of the original (meaning prior to the 1960's massive relos) AT route in GA and NC / TN? If so, please state where the original route went.

I'll turn that question around and ask you, FD, if you've read any of the original journals of the first few dozen AT thru-hikers? I'm referring specifically to that Rodale Press monster volume that's the subject of another thread...

We should be clear about what time periods we're discussing also. The trail was first proposed in 1921, "completed" ca. 1937 or so, but the first documented thru-hike wasn't till 1947 or 48 (Shaffer.) So there are journals to document the route of the AT from 1948 onwards.

I know almost nothing about the history of the BMT, except that I remember walking past one or two trail markers in 1990 that referenced it as being "under construction". So there were short segments of the BMT already in existence back then.

[Alligator]

...
Alligator, I'm off to Hawk Mountain. I'll probably enjoy my day off more there. I need an attitude adjustment and don't expect to find one here.;)Have fun! You never know. There were two folks recently who I saw changed course, one pleasantly surprisingly. It occasionally happens.

[Alligator]

It's not really the time period that is important but rather was the section of trail ever designated as part of the AT.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

I'll turn that question around and ask you, FD, if you've read any of the original journals of the first few dozen AT thru-hikers? I'm referring specifically to that Rodale Press monster volume that's the subject of another thread...

We should be clear about what time periods we're discussing also. The trail was first proposed in 1921, "completed" ca. 1937 or so, but the first documented thru-hike wasn't till 1947 or 48 (Shaffer.) So there are journals to document the route of the AT from 1948 onwards.

I know almost nothing about the history of the BMT, except that I remember walking past one or two trail markers in 1990 that referenced it as being "under construction". So there were short segments of the BMT already in existence back then.So are you saying that you do not feel that the route of the trail between the 1937 completion and the subsequent thru hikes (1948 to 1972 as documented in the book you reference and ES's own book) is of any consequence? I'm trying to establish the original route -- the one from 1937. The accounts of thrus such as ES may be helpful in doing this, but they do not establish where earlier routes may have been.

As to your question - yes, I have read many of the early accounts.

[emerald]

I'll turn that question around and ask you, FD, if you've read any of the original journals of the first few dozen AT thru-hikers? I'm referring specifically to that Rodale Press monster volume that's the subject of another thread...

We should be clear about what time periods we're discussing also.

Someone should provide her with a copy of Walking with Spring for the good of us all. I remember at least once before when it appeared to me she had not read it.

It's essential reading for AT history enthusiasts, regardless of the thickness of the reader's skin.:rolleyes: Mine is thick enough to provide essential protection from the elements, but not so thick that I am oblivious to the world. I hope her vision is still good or at least she has good reading glasses -- I could use some, but I can still sit at arm's length from my monitor and read post.

Hawk Mountain Sanctuary is calling me.:-?:)

[Gray Blazer]

Oh, and Gray Blazer, if your reference to the postmaster at Damascus pertains to Pasc(h)al Grindstaff, I will vouche for him. One of the most kind and helpful people to AT hikers in 1980 without a doubt based upon my personal experience. I learned from LW some time ago he has passed away along with some of the other Damacus elders so helpful to hikers in those days.



That was in the pamphlet from the ATC in 1971. It didn't mention his name, but, no doubt he was a good guy. Grindstaff is a famous name along the AT (I'm thinking of Uncle Nick Grindstaff).

[rafe]

So are you saying that you do not feel that the route of the trail between the 1937 completion and the subsequent thru hikes (1948 to 1972 as documented in the book you reference and ES's own book) is of any consequence? I'm trying to establish the original route -- the one from 1937. The accounts of thrus such as ES may be helpful in doing this, but they do not establish where earlier routes may have been.

As to your question - yes, I have read many of the early accounts.

"If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it..."

Of course, my own view is based on the history as I learned it -- from ATC literature, MacKaye's biography, and from the Rodale journals.

If the BMT happens to share a few miles with the AT as it was existed between 1921 and 1937 (or 1948) -- well, yeah, but so what?

[The Old Fhart]

If you have read other trail journals you know that sometimes they aren't the best source of trail info-the old guidebooks would be the best source. The oldest guides I have are 1942, Southern Appalachians, Oglethorpe-Damascus; 1931 Blue Ridge;1934 Housatonic to Susquehanna; 1936 Maine; plus some other "newer" ones. They make interesting reading.

[chili36]

In GA & NC, much of the old AT is now the BMT

I am getting bits and pieces of information, but can I now take it that this isn't correct?

I know how the AT left 129 and climbed out into the park before it was re-routed. I have been up there a few times and have actually seen a map that had it marked at one point.

How about south of 129 and in GA?

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

If you have read other trail journals you know that sometimes they aren't the best source of trail info-the old guidebooks would be the best source. The oldest guides I have are 1942, Southern Appalachians, Oglethorpe-Damascus; 1931 Blue Ridge;1934 Housatonic to Susquehanna; 1936 Maine; plus some other "newer" ones. They make interesting reading.Wonderful. Finally someone with a good source for early info.

TOF, does the 1942 guidebook for Oglethorpe to Damascus describe the route as going along the route it now takes (entering via the Fontana Dam crossing) or as entering the area that became the GSMNP using a crossing of highway 129 at Deals Gap?

[Hikerhead]

TOF might be out taking pic on Mt Washington so I'll share what I found out.

This link says the lake started filling up in 1944...I assume that means the dam was finished.

http://www.main.nc.us/graham/fontanad.html#Construction

Seems to me on another thread about the BMT and The Smokies that someone, maybe Rock, found info saying the trail was routed over the dam in 1945.

Search for that old thread...it had some good info like links to topo maps that are marked Old AT. That thread started our hike into the 20 Mile area to hike the OLD AT out of Deals Gap.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Thanks for the info, Hikerhead. After I saw the thread you mentioned, I dug out my personal journal and found the account of the hike with my former FIL. You and Rock were on the right track all along.

[highway]

Following a thread in another forum got me to wondering..If one wanted to how much of the route that Earl Shaffer hiked on his Walking with Spring is still part of the AT as it exists today?...And if some parts are no longer a part of the official AT how much of that could still be hiked on?

I was told by a local who should know that the Kimsey Creek Trail was a part of the original AT dating from the 30's ('33, '34?). It is the trail that bypasses Standing Indian and Mt Albert and seems to follow, and cross, numerous feeder streams along its very beautiful route. It is at a lower elevation and is quite frankly, considerably more interesting a route than the AT as it is located now, not to mention shorter. There are some of the finest looking campsites one could ask for along the creek, that roars along and over rapids, and reminded me of those found out west. An additional bonus-If you are looking for ramps, then walk this trail, as it meanders through huge fields of them!

[MoodyBluer]

I was told by a local who should know that the Kimsey Creek Trail was a part of the original AT dating from the 30's ('33, '34?). It is the trail that bypasses Standing Indian and Mt Albert and seems to follow, and cross, numerous feeder streams along its very beautiful route. It is at a lower elevation and is quite frankly, considerably more interesting a route than the AT as it is located now, not to mention shorter. There are some of the finest looking campsites one could ask for along the creek, that roars along and over rapids, and reminded me of those found out west. An additional bonus-If you are looking for ramps, then walk this trail, as it meanders through huge fields of them!


I agree w/ you about the KCT...much prettier than the AT that runs SE from Deep Gap. Ronnie Haven told me to be on the lookout for ramps on the KCT and boy was he right! They made a delicious add to my chicken noodle soup.

[rafe]

I was told by a local who should know that the Kimsey Creek Trail was a part of the original AT dating from the 30's ('33, '34?). It is the trail that bypasses Standing Indian and Mt Albert and seems to follow, and cross, numerous feeder streams along its very beautiful route. It is at a lower elevation and is quite frankly, considerably more interesting a route than the AT as it is located now, not to mention shorter. There are some of the finest looking campsites one could ask for along the creek, that roars along and over rapids, and reminded me of those found out west. An additional bonus-If you are looking for ramps, then walk this trail, as it meanders through huge fields of them!

Funny you should mention Standing Indian -- I'm almost sure I walked the wrong trail up the mountain. ;) not the first or last time that happened...

[The Old Fhart]

FD-"TOF, does the 1942 guidebook for Oglethorpe to Damascus describe the route as going along the route it now takes (entering via the Fontana Dam crossing) or as entering the area that became the GSMNP using a crossing of highway 129 at Deals Gap?"
The 1942 guidebook doesn't mention Fontana at all although construction was to start in 1942. I only had time to quickly compare the old trail data against the Appalachian Pages data book so this should be almost correct but the 14 miles of the trail at the southern end of the Smokies goes from Deals Gap(U.S.129), Deals Gap Shelter, Dalton Gap, Parsons Bald, Gregory Bald, Moore's Spring Shelter Cabin, Rich Gap, Brier Lick Gap, Buck Gap, Doe Knob, Ekaneetlee Gap, Devil's Tater Patch, Locust Knob, Big Abrams Gap, Little Abrams Gap, to Russell Field. The bold entries are places the trail still goes.

There was no shelter at Russell Field and the shelters that existed had what they referred to as 'wire bunks'. I remember 20+ years ago going thru the Smokies and these old wooden framed top bunks had two layers of this heavy screen that over the years, had developed a deep sag from all the hikers who had stayed there so it was almost like trying to sleep in a rescue litter like SAR groups use. Between the two layers of wire where it draped over the wood frame there was decades of accumulated filth and the wire had broken in some areas so there were sharp ends sticking up to snag you or your sleeping bag. The new all wooden platforms are a big improvement.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

TOF, thank you for taking the time to look that up and post it.

Could you tell how the trail got to Deals Gap? I really would like to know if the info I got from oldtimers about the trail using the old Tellico / Robbinsville Road (now the Cherohala Parkway) is correct. If you could list some of the peaks and gaps mentioned, I will be glad to do the research to plot the path - though it may be next week before I have time. I have to go to Summerville, GA for a granddaughter's high school graduation this evening and will be staying there a couple of days. Then I'll be going to be with my father in Chattanooga for a few days. The motel in Summerville has wireless, but I may not have time.

[chili36]

If memory serves me right, the bunks had chicken wire in them.

[Gray Blazer]

Does the ATC still advise hikers that they can ford the Kennebec when the water is down? In 1971 they were.

[veteran]

[QUOTE=The Old Fhart;629359]The 1942 guidebook doesn't mention Fontana at all although construction was to start in 1942. I only had time to quickly compare the old trail data against the Appalachian Pages data book so this should be almost correct but the 14 miles of the trail at the southern end of the Smokies goes from Deals Gap(U.S.129), Deals Gap Shelter, Dalton Gap, Parsons Bald, Gregory Bald, Moore's Spring Shelter Cabin, Rich Gap, Brier Lick Gap, Buck Gap, Doe Knob, Ekaneetlee Gap, Devil's Tater Patch, Locust Knob, Big Abrams Gap, Little Abrams Gap, to Russell Field. The bold entries are places the trail still goes.
QUOTE]

Old AT Route Maps from Walker Gap to Doe Knob In the Smokies.

Map 1 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.8040730142857&Lat=35.421796856) Map 2 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?t=2&s=11&lon=-83.8194613030757&lat=35.42180883085&w=700&h=500&opt=0&f=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial&fs=8&fc=ffffff99&lp=---+None+---) Map 3 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?t=2&s=11&lon=-83.8348327762951&lat=35.421810203217&w=700&h=500&opt=0&f=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial&fs=8&fc=ffffff99&lp=---+None+---) Map 4 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.84076814285714&Lat=35.42595912) Map 5 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.85538818857142&Lat=35.430408672) Map 6 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.86966294857141&Lat=35.432981919999996) Map 7 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.88328638571428&Lat=35.435533463999995) Map 8 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.89708160571429&Lat=35.438939256)

Map 9 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.91082335142856&Lat=35.441423688) Map 10 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.9244683&Lat=35.440530908) Map 11 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.93783327428572&Lat=35.44394342) Map 12 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.93886538&Lat=35.45099376) Map 13 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.93939396&Lat=35.458207384) Map14 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.94298760000001&Lat=35.465355992) Map 15 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.93106138857142&Lat=35.47401056) Map 16 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.91738028857142&Lat=35.474258655999996)

Map 17 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.90394781142856&Lat=35.480471136000006) Map 18 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.89874&Lat=35.486531688) Map 19 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.90085694285714&Lat=35.494618156) Map 20 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.89224864&Lat=35.502389868) Map 21 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.88516718285714&Lat=35.511418512) Map 22 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.87586042857143&Lat=35.519832324) Map 23 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.86133181142857&Lat=35.52069036) Map 24 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.84720477714286&Lat=35.520807760000004) Map 25 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.83339954857143&Lat=35.523578623999995) Map 26 (http://terraserver-usa.com/map.aspx?T=2&S=11&W=700&H=500&opt=0&lp=---%20None%20---&Lon=-83.82044058&Lat=35.524793344)

[rafe]

There was no shelter at Russell Field and the shelters that existed had what they referred to as 'wire bunks'. I remember 20+ years ago going thru the Smokies and these old wooden framed top bunks had two layers of this heavy screen that over the years, had developed a deep sag from all the hikers who had stayed there so it was almost like trying to sleep in a rescue litter like SAR groups use. Between the two layers of wire where it draped over the wood frame there was decades of accumulated filth and the wire had broken in some areas so there were sharp ends sticking up to snag you or your sleeping bag. The new all wooden platforms are a big improvement.

When I went through there in 1990, reconstruction was just beginning on one of those shelters in the Smokies -- I think it was Icewater Springs. I have a photo somewhere of a mule arriving there, heavily loaded with lumber. The shelters in the Smokies really were "the pits." It might be nice to revisit that part of the trail in a better season. (Pity that most thru-hikers go thru in crappy spring weather.)

[The Old Fhart]

Veteran-"Old AT Route Maps from Walker Gap to Doe Knob In the Smokies. (LINKS)"I checked a couple of the maps you link to and it appears the date on them was 01 July 1987, which isn't that old. The maps in my guidebook are about 45 years older, although not as detailed as the USGS maps.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Tipi Walter says on another thread that the Yellow Creek Mountain trail (http://www.main.nc.us/graham/hiking/yellowcr.html) was once part of the AT -- This trail leads from the Fontana area to Deals Gap via Topoco, NC. Given this, it is highly unlikely that the Tellico Road was part of the AT as there would be no need for a route thru that area given the location of the YCM trail.