View Full Version : Shuttling Cost Questions
Jack Tarlin
05-25-2008, 11:32
I've been talking with quite a few hikers lately about Trail shuttles and costs.
The prevailing view among most of the hikers I've spoken with is that they think a lot of shuttles and shuttlers are asking too much.
The prevailing view among the shutttlers I've talked to is that these services don't cost enough, especially when we considering the recent escalation of gas costs.
My own opinion is that gas costs are indeed getting ridiculous, and there's no reason why services dependent on automobiles shouldn't be affected by this. After all, can anyone think of anything they've bought recently that cost LESS than when they bought it six months or a year ago? Food certainly doesn't cost less. And gas sure doesn't. So why on earth should shuttle costs stay the same as they were a year or two ago?
In short, they shouldn't. (Never mind the fact that shuttle customers don't take into consideration such things as wear and tear on vehicles, insurance costs, the cost of the driver's own time, etc).
Oh, and if one still has quibbles about paying for a shuttle to the Trailhead, there are always at least three alternatives:
*Use your own vehicle, and risk leaving it out in the middle of nowhere
*Stay home
*Put your thumb out and flag down a ride
Any thoughts or opinions on this?
Fannypack
05-25-2008, 11:51
I've been talking with quite a few hikers lately about Trail shuttles and costs.
The prevailing view among most of the hikers I've spoken with is that they think a lot of shuttles and shuttlers are asking too much.
The prevailing view among the shutttlers I've talked to is that these services don't cost enough, especially when we considering the recent escalation of gas costs.
My own opinion is that gas costs are indeed getting ridiculous, and there's no reason why services dependent on automobiles shouldn't be affected by this. After all, can anyone think of anything they've bought recently that cost LESS than when they bought it six months or a year ago? Food certainly doesn't cost less. And gas sure doesn't. So why on earth should shuttle costs stay the same as they were a year or two ago?
In short, they shouldn't. (Never mind the fact that shuttle customers don't take into consideration such things as wear and tear on vehicles, insurance costs, the cost of the driver's own time, etc).
Oh, and if one still has quibbles about paying for a shuttle to the Trailhead, there are always at least three alternatives:
*Use your own vehicle, and risk leaving it out in the middle of nowhere
*Stay home
*Put your thumb out and flag down a ride
Any thoughts or opinions on this?
Jack, u have way tooooooo much time on your hands!
deeddawg
05-25-2008, 11:54
I agree completely -- a service provider needs to be able to cover their costs and be reasonably compensated for their time. If their direct costs go up, why [B]wouldn't[B] they pass that on to the customer?
Just remember you'll always have a spectrum of responses; I think a lot of people understand basic economics like this and go with it. However at any level above "free" you'll always have some portion of the population that thinks providers should always be "giving back" or hauling sweaty hikers around from a "sense of family". These are the people who rail against passing along increases in costs.
I agree we're a community and should help each other out -- but we're talking about folks here who are really doing this as a part time business. The concepts of "giving back" and "hiker family" don't get the shuttle providers very far with the gas station owners.
Cookerhiker
05-25-2008, 11:56
It should be a no-brainer that we should pay more for shuttlers with the price of gas escalating like it has (and will continue). I guess some hikers have a brainlock or are in a timewarp if they think otherwise.
If they think shuttles are expensive, there's a 4th option to Jack's list: take a taxi. Then you'll see how shuttlers are still a good deal.
I say... it's situational. The shuttler who took me off the trail last summer drove miles out of his way to come fetch me, and many miles more to deliver me to the airport hotel in Roanoke. I also knew that he worked on a RATC trail crew. He didn't ask for money. I slipped him $100 as we parted ways. I was in a good mood, I'd just finished the trail.. for good.
What should be the "going rate?" How do you decide what's too much or not enough? Up in Buena Vista, I paid $20 for a round trip shuttle to/from the trail... about 10 miles each way. The old fella obviously lived out of his beat-up old car, in some role as unofficial/unlicensed taxi for the town.
Alligator
05-25-2008, 12:11
...In short, they shouldn't. (Never mind the fact that shuttle customers don't take into consideration such things as wear and tear on vehicles, insurance costs, the cost of the driver's own time, etc).
...I take all those things into consideration, i.e. cost of operating the vehicle and the driver's time. Often the shuttler charges by the mile from pickup to dropoff, but folks should recognize that they have to drive back and from their home base, and their time includes that. I'm not sure everyone considers that. One can find rates per mile for personal vehicle use in business settings for comparative purposes. Increasing the fee as a result of higher gas prices is fine in my book, but it should reflect how gasoline plays into the operating cost/wage equation.
Something else to think about is if it was a taxi or livery service, I think the price would be way higher for many shuttles.
Also, most shuttlers are very accomodating in setting up drop times given reasonable advance notice.
the goat
05-25-2008, 12:31
when pondering what is an acceptable rate, it's worth noting that the government reimbursement rate for milage is 44.5 cents a mile. in other words, that is the "break-even" calculation point for vehicle milage.
since assumedly we're talking a/b profit-generating ventures here, and then taking someone else's time into consideration, i think folks should expect to shell out accordingly.
Creek Dancer
05-25-2008, 12:36
I believe the IRS reimbursement rate is currently 50.5 cents per mile.
I am happy to pay whatever the shuttler requests, plus I add a tip.
Alligator
05-25-2008, 12:50
Plus a little bit for business insurance if that differs from the personal ins. and consider permits.
Whichever mileage reimbursement rate you go by, mentally double it, as the shuttler has to drive to and from their base. That's about the minimum too, as they drive the length between your start and end, plus the distance from their base to the start plus the distance from the end to the base. If they are in the middle of your hike, it is double, but it could be more. (Draw points A and B, then move a point C, their base around.) Now if they have other customers, sometimes they can cut you a break, which is generous in my opinion.
A............. C................................................. . B
_____________________________________________
C.................. A............................................. B
_____________________________________________
A................................................. ................. B
......................................C
_____________________________________________
Jack Tarlin
05-25-2008, 13:06
Note to Fannypack who seems to think I have too much time on my hands.
Um, I'm helping out an Outfitter friend this week, and the question of shuttles and shuttle costs comes up around fifteen times a day. If I raised the subject, it's becasue it's one I've been dealing with a lot lately. All I wanted was to get other people's opinions on the subject. That OK with you?
Ron Haven
05-25-2008, 13:21
I've been talking with quite a few hikers lately about Trail shuttles and costs.
The prevailing view among most of the hikers I've spoken with is that they think a lot of shuttles and shuttlers are asking too much.
The prevailing view among the shutttlers I've talked to is that these services don't cost enough, especially when we considering the recent escalation of gas costs.
My own opinion is that gas costs are indeed getting ridiculous, and there's no reason why services dependent on automobiles shouldn't be affected by this. After all, can anyone think of anything they've bought recently that cost LESS than when they bought it six months or a year ago? Food certainly doesn't cost less. And gas sure doesn't. So why on earth should shuttle costs stay the same as they were a year or two ago?
In short, they shouldn't. (Never mind the fact that shuttle customers don't take into consideration such things as wear and tear on vehicles, insurance costs, the cost of the driver's own time, etc).
Oh, and if one still has quibbles about paying for a shuttle to the Trailhead, there are always at least three alternatives:
*Use your own vehicle, and risk leaving it out in the middle of nowhere
*Stay home
*Put your thumb out and flag down a ride
Any thoughts or opinions on this?Great post Jack.Every area is different but here goes.Most shuttlers gave vans or vehicles which only get oppx 10 miles per gallon and at $4 per gallon =.40 per mile
Most shuttlers want to make $15 per hour and mtn back roads you average 30 miles per hour which is .50 per mile
vehicle upkeep inc insurance is .60 per mile
adding all this up gas .40 + labor .50 + vehicle upkeep .50 all =$1.50 per mile.
Hiker needing a 20 mile shuttle results in 40 miles round trip for the shuttler = $60.00 Maybe this is an odd way of breaking it down.
Of course if the hikers are as as most are,Shuttlers cut the price due to good attitudes.:)
Almost There
05-25-2008, 15:30
Ask up front when setting up the shuttle what they want for the shuttle, and decide then and there if you want to pay it...Once I set up the shuttle I pay the agreed upon price no questions asked...I figure they're doing me a favor. Good post Jack.
Johnny Swank
05-25-2008, 15:35
For commercial enterprises, I'd say $2/mile is the bare minimum fair compensation, with some discount built in for multiple folks taking the same shuttle.
If you want to pay a commercial shuttle rather than hang out a thumb, then you should be expected to pay a decent rate. $2/mile is a bargain in the grand scheme of things.
Pringles
05-25-2008, 16:15
I've been section hiking for longer than I care to remember, and I don't remember ever having a problem with how much the shuttle cost.
It costs money for them to have a vehicle and to do the driving, and a lot of the shuttlers I've "experienced" have a bunch of free time because they aren't employed. I usually enjoy the stories they tell, and really appreciate the fact that they know where the AT crosses "Backroad X." I hope they're making enough money that they'll be there the next year (or in 10 years) when I go back to do the next section.
Beth
Hiker needing a 20 mile shuttle results in 40 miles round trip for the shuttler = $60.00 Maybe this is an odd way of breaking it down. .:)
I dunno, Ron.. High for the country, low for the city if you ask me... I used a cab -- not a shuttle -- from The Inn at Afton to "downtown" Waynesboro. Prolly 10 miles each way. They charged me $20 round trip.
About 10 years ago a shuttler stood us up in Stratton, ME. My nephew and I needed to get the the Rte. 4 (Rangeley?) road crossing (and hike nobo back to Stratton.) Long story short, the unemployed husband of a waitress at some diner ended up driving us. The ride took a good 40 minutes, over hilly, curvy back roads (Rte. 16.) When we arrived, I tried to hand the guy $50, he wouldn't take it. I convinced him to take $20.
The following year, another pre-hike adventure. We'd meant to bike from Caratunk to Stratton (the car was parked in Caratunk.) That's a sixty mile bike ride. We had the whole day to do the bike ride. Nephew ran completely out of steam 20 miles from our destination near Stratton. We happened to be near this B & B. We'd have happily stayed there for the night but they were full. The proprietor gave us (and our bikes) a ride the rest of the way. I ended up sending them a couple of large framed photos as "compensation." I still have their thank-you note.
most of my shuttles have been my car my gas I buy lunch and pay 1$ per mile 1 way the common rate of 1$ per mile 1 way there car there gas from past years is way out of line unless 5 or more people are each paying this rate
NICKTHEGREEK
05-25-2008, 17:22
when pondering what is an acceptable rate, it's worth noting that the government reimbursement rate for milage is 44.5 cents a mile. in other words, that is the "break-even" calculation point for vehicle milage.
since assumedly we're talking a/b profit-generating ventures here, and then taking someone else's time into consideration, i think folks should expect to shell out accordingly.
50.5 cents a mile up from 48.5
50.5 cents a mile up from 48.5
My accountant told me recently my real-world company (printing, graphic design) could reimburse me at the rate of 63 cents per mile for use of my private vehicle for purposes of 2008's tax returns. No idea where that came from, but he's been a good accountant so I'm taking him at his word.
With gas at near $4/gal. as I write this, I'm thinking it could/should go higher.
However, gas is only one of several important factors one must consider as part of the fair cost of a shuttle, even before profit is realized.
More later. I like this thread. But I've got a shuttle to get to!
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=176030,00.html
minnesotasmith
05-25-2008, 18:06
http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/gasoline-isnt-only-rising-cost-for/n20080525141809990005
Gasoline isn't only rising cost for drivers
By DAN CATERINICCHIA,AP
Posted: 2008-05-25
WASHINGTON (AP) - Does filling the gas tank leave your wallet empty and spirit sputtering? Get used to both because almost everything car-related is costing more.
From oil changes to parking lot fees, sticker shock will make this summer even stickier.
"Everything is more expensive," said Raj Amber, a partner at AAA Limousine in Alexandria, Va., bemoaning the recent oil change cost increase to $30, up from $25.
Amber's frustration is common among consumers facing $4 a gallon for gasoline, $45 a day for car rentals that cost $31 last year, and bigger bills from mechanics, tire shops and parking garages. Cost-fighting tactics are somewhat schizophrenic: vigilant tune ups to stave off new car purchases or bare-minimum crucial fixes combined with a hope-for-the-best mentality.
Fuel remains the single biggest expense for car owners over the lifetime of a vehicle at about 30 percent of costs, followed closely by depreciation and insurance. But the prices for maintenance and repairs, which combined account for less than 10 percent of an automobile's costs, are creeping up.
Travel agency AAA estimates that the average cost of owning and operating a car in 2008 will be $8,121, up from $7,823 last year.
"Purchases I'm making for our cars now are all driven by a preventative mentality," said Tony Farrell, a freelance writer in Richmond, Va., who has a 2001 minivan and a 20-year-old Honda Civic he had considered selling. "A year ago, I would have let it run ragged. Now I want that car in good working order because I want it to last."
Mirwais Niaz, manager of a Midas franchise in Arlington, Va., said many customers are opting for the most basic repairs, trying to buy time and save for more expensive work.
For example, a recent Midas customer whose car needed extensive brake work told Niaz: "I don't care about the squeaking, just do something so the car stops." Another customer, whose car needed a transmission fluid flush asked if it could last another three months without the $159 service since gas prices had sapped his funds.
Shell Oil subsidiary Jiffy Lube has seen its car count drop by roughly 2 percent in the last year as gas prices have surged and new vehicle technology gives drivers a better idea of when maintenance is needed, said Lisa Carlson, global director of marketing for Jiffy Lube International.
The dollar's decreased value, which makes imports more expensive, is an important factor driving up prices for oil, steel and other raw materials used in auto parts, said Harry Veryser, an economist at the University of Detroit Mercy and former chairman of an automotive parts supplier.
One spot of relief is auto insurance. Rates have remained steady or fallen in many states because insurers are losing less money on claims and face competitive and regulatory pressures to avoid rate increases, said Donald Light, senior analyst for Celent in San Francisco. If high gasoline prices prompt less driving, accidents - and insurance rates - should drop further, Light said.
In big cities, drivers are finding it more expensive to park. An annual survey by real estate services provider Collier's International found that daily parking rates rose in 2007 for the fourth straight year, a trend the company expects to continue in 2008.
But Benjamin Sann, founder of the Web site bestparking.com, which tracks rates in Boston, Manhattan, Philadelphia and Washington, said more companies have dropped prices recently as they struggle to attract and maintain business.
Indeed, some automobile-related businesses are trying to avoid passing their rising costs onto customers.
To retain his best limousine clients, Amber has not yet raised rental rates but has been forced to include a fuel surcharge of up to $5 on some trips. Customers, he said, "are not happy."
Midas has stopped advertising prices for promotions among its 1,700 shops in the U.S. and Canada after a deal on brakes last year was too low in busy metropolitan areas and too high in more rural locations, said Bob Troyer, director of corporate affairs at the company's Itasca, Ill., headquarters. Prices are set by individual owners based on their costs and local competition.
Despite motor oil costs rising 15 percent in recent months, Niaz has maintained his Midas location's prices to remain competitive and meet any local promotions. Visible from his front desk is an Exxon Mobil station where regular-grade gasoline was selling for nearly $4 a gallon.
"I'm complaining myself," said Niaz, who recently spent $62 to fill up his 4-cylinder Toyota Camry.
I recently paid $1.35 per one way mile for my shuttle service. I was happy.
Remember that the shuttler has to double the miles to get back to their start point. It's not a one way trip. Thus, your $.50 cents per mile becomes $1.00 leaving only $.35 for profit.
No one's getting rich here.
Assume minimum wage is $5.00 per hour, one has to average about 15mph to make minimum.
Tom
boarstone
05-25-2008, 18:57
I've been talking with quite a few hikers lately about Trail shuttles and costs.
The prevailing view among most of the hikers I've spoken with is that they think a lot of shuttles and shuttlers are asking too much.
The prevailing view among the shutttlers I've talked to is that these services don't cost enough, especially when we considering the recent escalation of gas costs.
My own opinion is that gas costs are indeed getting ridiculous, and there's no reason why services dependent on automobiles shouldn't be affected by this. After all, can anyone think of anything they've bought recently that cost LESS than when they bought it six months or a year ago? Food certainly doesn't cost less. And gas sure doesn't. So why on earth should shuttle costs stay the same as they were a year or two ago?
In short, they shouldn't. (Never mind the fact that shuttle customers don't take into consideration such things as wear and tear on vehicles, insurance costs, the cost of the driver's own time, etc).
Oh, and if one still has quibbles about paying for a shuttle to the Trailhead, there are always at least three alternatives:
*Use your own vehicle, and risk leaving it out in the middle of nowhere
*Stay home
*Put your thumb out and flag down a ride
Any thoughts or opinions on this?
Jack: I still leave it up to the "needer"-hiker...donate to the "gas kitty" is all I ask...
boarstone
05-25-2008, 19:07
Let me expound a bit...I don't expect to be paid for my time, I know how hard it is for hikers to get things done in my area "100 mile wilderness" as it is...heck..I have a hard enough time myself to adjust so I can get my OWN hikes in..two vehicles twice the gas when I need to do my section hikes...so just a donation to the "gas kitty" is all I ask. Even if I pick up unexpected hikers on my trips into/outoff the area, I don't ASK for donations..I was going in/out anyway...if they offer fine,...I don't do this for a business, which may exclude me a bit...it's an offering to the hiking community for this area where other wise there would be nil...or too expensive/prohibitive for most to incorporate it into their hike...
hopefulhiker
05-25-2008, 19:08
I am glad I did my thru in 2005.. Many of the Hostel Owners would shuttle us into to town for free as part of the staying at the hostel... Some provided shuttles just out of good will. I hitchhiked some too.
But for the most part I had great luck with a bunch of really nice people who shuttled for cheap..
In Franklin my wife came to visit and shuttled some thru hikers on/off the trail and around town for free... She also helped hikers like Phoenix and Snowman's wife shuttle on and off the trail... I actually had some gear problems in Gorham and rented a van for a few days and shuttled hikers around a littlle myself...
I must admit that sometimes I would try to haggle with the shuttler to get the price down a litte. Sometimes they would haggle and sometimes they wouldn't. Up North it seemed that the shuttlers just got too expensive in some cases.
I agree with Jack that a shuttler needs to be compensated for his time and gas. Most will only take barely enough to cover the gas and assume the time is their gift to the trail. I was surprised at the number of hikers who never even thought to offer Miss Janet a dime!
bigcranky
05-25-2008, 19:51
I'm getting ready to do a section in central VA, and I'll need two shuttles in Daleville to make it happen. The outfitter charges $1.25 per mile one way. I think that's the deal of the century. Just figuring out what it would cost in gas to bring two cars and do our own shuttles makes their shuttle the cheaper option.
I've had some recent shuttles in Damascus that I thought were pretty darn cheap, too. Just have to add the shuttle cost to the overall cost of hiking.
astrogirl
05-25-2008, 20:29
As a sectioner, I've paid for a lot of shuttles.
I think of the price as that person's time there and back. I have, in 10 years, only felt ripped off once.
Service providers should not be shy about raising their rates to reflect rising costs and still make a reasonable profit. And given $4 gas or more, no one should shuttle for free.
Ron Haven
05-25-2008, 23:15
I dunno, Ron.. High for the country, low for the city if you ask me... I used a cab -- not a shuttle -- from The Inn at Afton to "downtown" Waynesboro. Prolly 10 miles each way. They charged me $20 round trip.
We have City Taxi and Larry's Cab Service here who both are charging $25 to go to Winding Stair Gap.They use about $8 in gas.
Service providers should not be shy about raising their rates to reflect rising costs and still make a reasonable profit. And given $4 gas or more, no one should shuttle for free.
Maybe I shouldn't but for our motel guest I shuttle almost everyday free to Winding Stair,Rock,& Wallace Gap free.
There are commercial shuttle services, and there are individuals who do it as a sideline, and still others who could best be labelled as trail angels. You can't compare these three types of shuttle providers and come up with the same rates.
Generally, the commercial provider is available long hours almost every day of the year, or at least during the broad hiking season, and may have multiple drivers to provide prompt, efficient, knowledgeable service in newer, better, safer, well maintained vehicles. The better ones will carry ample commercial liability insurance, and possess all permits to do business in national (and if applicable, state) parks and forests.
The "sideline" shuttler is likely an unincorporated individual, not a company—often operating on a part time schedule to make a spare income. Most do not concern themselves with commercial insurance or federal/state permits. Some are quite good at providing ample service, others are not. A few operate a shuttle service in conjunction with another commercial enterprise like a motel, outfitter, or hostel. A hiker must be more flexible when dealing with part time providers. I would also include regular taxi services in this category, because serving hikers' needs is such a minor part of their overall business and frankly, their drivers know next to nothing about the AT or its myriad access points.
The trail angel is just that—someone who has a long-term or perhaps a newfound affinity for the hiking community. Some are currently hikers themselves, or have a past thru or section hike to their credit. It is almost certain that they aren't concerned with having commercial insurance, or permits. They do what they do for the love of hikers, and to maintain a connection to the hiking community. They are not usually in it for the money. Bless them. They are usually available on a more limited basis, unless retired or not working by choice or circumstance.
There are certainly exceptions to these generalizations.
This thread is primarily about the commercial shuttle provider, so what follows mostly applies to them.
FAIR EXPECTATIONS
Commercial shuttle providers typically operate on a professional level. They are usually extremely knowledgeable about their region's trails and other nearby amenities. They should be expected to operate ethically, offer telephone and e-mail trip planning, parking options, a website and/or printed literature with plenty of information about their services/policies/fees and highlights of the areas they serve, maintain reliable/safe vehicles, employ congenial and helpful staff, be available on reasonably short notice (one or two days at most), and be willing to provide extra services if requested. Some will even accept credit cards.
The service I am most familiar with positions itself as the "go-to source" for those planning a hiking or backpacking adventure in their region, which is Shenandoah National Park and beyond—not simply a number to call for a ride. It is not unusual for a prospective client to spend 15, 30, 45 minutes or more discussing their needs, desires, fears, and other matters with the service. Sometimes, the service actually devises the whole itinerary for them, much like a travel agency would do for someone planning a major vacation. This is not charged for. The service also provides heads-ups to clients regarding Park regulations, assists with backcountry permits, parking waivers on near-trail private property that is safer than typical trailheads, lets them know about stealth campsites along the way, provides a spreadsheet with water sources listed, and even offers its own on-site parking and the option to use an AT-style shelter and tenting area on its property the night before or the night after a shuttle client's hike—free of charge.
INSURANCE AND MANDATED PERMITS
Commercial outfits will seek to protect their assets by carrying high financial limits of the same type of commercial liability insurance that taxis, limos, and bus fleets do. Most of us probably don't know this, but many regular (Nationwide, Allstate, Geico, etc.) auto liability policies will not pay a claim when/if they discover the accident occurred during the transport of passengers who were paying a fee. This could devastate an individual or business held liable, and it is not helpful at all to the injured parties.
The type of insurance policy that will pay under these "for-hire" circumstances are written by only a few specialty companies, and is quite expensive. I have seen quotes as high as $6,000 per year for just one mini-van; more realistic premiums can be found for about $2,500 contingent upon the drivers having an exemplary record. This compares to a regular consumer policy costing $800 or less per year for a vehicle worth about $20,000 and limits of $100,000 and $300,000 (typical commercial limits are higher than this).
To operate in a national park or national forest (and some state parks or other venues) requires special permits for which one must jump through hoops, pay a start-up fee plus annual fees, and prove that the aforementioned commercial insurance is in force. The US Government, in the case of national parks, must be named specifically as "Additional Insured."
FIXED COSTS
The commercial shuttle provider has several expensive fixed costs that must be paid for prior to legally accepting the first paying customer:
•Cost of the modern, safe vehicle or fleet—which must be replaced every three years or so.
•Cost to maintain and repair each vehicle, and replace expendibles in that vehicle or fleet.
•Cost of the commercial liability insurance.
•Cost of various park and forest permits.
•Cost of its operating infrastructure (landline phones, cell phones, beepers, computers, credit card processing in some cases, maybe a toll-free line)
•Cost of marketing (establishing and maintaining a good website, brochures, paid media, internet search engines, etc.)
FUEL
All categories of providers must contend with the same high cost of fuel everyone is dealing with today. The service I am most acquainted with paid about $900 at the pump in April '08 for fuel required for just one of its mini-vans. This was when gas was closer to $3.30-$3.50/gal., and it was not even high hiker season yet. For May '08, that figure looks like it will exceed $1,500. Where will it end?
PAYROLL
Add to these costs fair compensation for drivers and support staff, and there isn't a whole lot left over for profit.
PROFITABILITY
Profit is usually realized only if enough shuttle traffic (volume) is realized in a given month.
To cover these costs, the ultimate price of a shuttle must include all of the time, driving, and miles necessary to provide that shuttle. From the shuttler's base, to the pickup point, to the dropoff point, and back to the base (or halfway to the next pickup point on those rare occasions when trips fit together nicely). If the driver must wait for a late client to show, or if the driver must make intermediate stops for the client to pick up a maildrop, buy something at a store, etc. there must also be some financial consideration.
When regular unleaded cost less than $3/gal., a service could pay its bills and make a modest profit if it averaged a few moderate trips per day or their equivalent, and charged $1 a mile as described above (base back to base). Today, that just won't cover it. Smart providers are raising their rates as necessary, and hoping their clients understand. Some do, some don't. They are also diversifying into other markets, serving local citizens' long-distance transport needs (distant hospitals, airports, shopping, entertainment needs).
ADVICE FOR HIKERS
It would behoove a hiker needing a shuttle to try and split the cost with one or more hikers—up to the limit that a vehicle can safely carry including gear. IMHO, it isn't necessary to charge extra per person for the same trip up to a vehicle's safe capacity—so if a trip is quoted at $100, that might be good for one person or perhaps four people. If four people, that would only cost $25 per person and is more of a bargain.
It is also important, when requesting a shuttle, to understand where a provider is based. If that's near the start or end point of your hiking itinerary, you will likely not feel the price is too high. If both start and end points are outside a provider's sweet spot, you may feel you are being overcharged—but please, consider how far the driver must travel to and from his base to provide that shuttle.
As gas continues to increase in price, and as the part-time shuttle provider or trail angel begins to realize how much his or her assets are at risk by not carrying expensive commercial liability insurance, there may be fewer options available to the hiker requiring a ride. Mass transit in most areas along the AT is non-existent, as these are mainly small communities not served by bus or rail anymore. The cost of a commercial provider's service may seem exhorbitant until one learns about their costs, many of which are mandated, but they can be justified.
Disclaimer: I learned a lot of what I have written about here by helping someone set up a new commercial service last year in the Shenandoah National Park region. As part of that effort, I solicited input here on WB, other hiker sites and events, as well as friends in the business along other parts of the AT. I still assist him by helping potential clients plan backpacking trips, and once in awhile driving for him.
fiddlehead
05-26-2008, 01:53
Tryin to remember if i ever used a shuttle service. Stickin out my thumb has always worked for me. That way, you grab a ride from someone who is willing, able, and going your way. Met lots of very interesting folks hitchin a ride.
I did use Greyhound already. I'd rather not do that again.
Stir Fry
05-26-2008, 02:16
Average cost to operate a new vehicle is $.77 per mile. With gas at $3.75. add to that $10-$12 per hour for time,and you have an idea what your shuttle will cost. It you ride is less you are lucky. When you figure milage Miles to get to you Miles to get you to you destination, and the Miles to go back home.
I just got home from my section hike from Amicalola to Fontana two hours ago. I made use of various shuttle services. I left my vehicle at Fontana and hired a service to take me to Amicalola. The gentleman quoted a price of $155 for this service several months ago. I gave him an extra $20 (he did not ask for it) when he dropped me off at the falls to make up for the increased gas prices and also to show my appreciation for the very prompt and courteous service he provided. I did not feel this was too high of price considering it was approximately 7 hours of his time, round trip.
While on the hike several of us called the Hiawassee Inn for a shuttle from Dicks Creek Gap. Sam said he was just starting to charge this year for shuttle service, which was $8 each way. No problem with that considering all the help he gave us during our stay, including letting us hikers work out our in-town shuttles to groceries and restaurants, and just letting us use his van.
Ron was very generous in providing us free shuttle service back to the trail after our stay in Franklin. He was not available to pick us up, but did break out his yellow bus to get all his guests back to their respective gaps to resume their hike the next day. His help and very friendly attitude was truly appreciated.
In Fontana Village, a phone is provided trail-side to call for a shuttle. We got picked up by the public safety officer, then returned by the courtesy van. Both times the shuttle was where we needed it within just a few minutes of calling them. Couldn't ask for any better service. $2 each way was very reasonable.
We even got picked up by a local for our trip into Franklin who then gave us his card and told us to call him in the morning if we needed a ride back to the trail and Ron couldn't provide it. He would pick us up on his way to work. This gentleman's son is an AT section hiker, so he made a habit of offering rides to hikers, no charge.
All in all, I was very happy with the services provided, and had no problem with those who charged a fee to help defray costs. Those who didn't charge were very much appreciated, and I hope they get their reward for their generosity either through increased business or just the warm, fuzzy feeling that they get. The services were great and much appreciated.
Maybe I shouldn't but for our motel guest I shuttle almost everyday free to Winding Stair,Rock,& Wallace Gap free.
The service you provide sounds like a courtesy shuttle offered for free by hotels near major airports. Nothing wrong it as long as you are covered by insurance. Although with today's escalating costs, you may have to either start charging a fee or raise your motel rates. You can be kind to hikers all you like, but people should understand that you are a for-profit enterprise.
We regularly provide rides to/from the Foot Bridge (James River) and Petite's Gap. We ask hikers at the local store if they need a lift and do the same at the other ends. We don't charge and so far, no one has offered anything other than thanks. These are our 'good deeds for the day'. We are up in the mountain numerous times a week, and in summer, are in and out at the bridge as often
Anyone need a shuttle in our area (Punchbowl south to Cornelius Creek), send a p.m. Maybe in our retirement we will turn it into a business (when we can't hike anymore--think that will ever happen??)
Frau
Tryin to remember if i ever used a shuttle service. Stickin out my thumb has always worked for me. That way, you grab a ride from someone who is willing, able, and going your way. Met lots of very interesting folks hitchin a ride.
I did use Greyhound already. I'd rather not do that again.
I'd take Amtrak over Greyhound any day, if Amtrak served the same destination. Costs more, but well worth it.
Hitching works well in some places, such as on a major road leading from the trail to a nearby town where the residents are accustomed to seeing hikers. Hitching back to the trail is sometimes more problematic. Hitching from town to town, or from someplace far away from the AT to the Trail corridor, is not as easy either. It takes skill, cunning, and patience.
Most reserved-in-advance paid shuttles are arranged by section hikers, not thru-hikers, who need the reliability a reservation with a reputable operator should provide. This is often their vacation for the year, or one of them, and they are more concerned about getting their hike in within the alloted time with a minimum of stress regarding logistics. They also appreciate the assistance a good shuttler can provide regarding overall trip planning, parking info, town info, trail and trailhead advice, and to know that shuttler can be relied upon to bail them out if necessary.
Most reserved-in-advance paid shuttles are arranged by section hikers, not thru-hikers, who need the reliability a reservation with a reputable operator should provide. This is often their vacation for the year, or one of them, and they are more concerned about getting their hike in within the alloted time with a minimum of stress regarding logistics.
Hear, hear! But I always worry about the "reliability" part.
I made a lot of use of my bicycle, on section hikes in New England -- so as not to be dependent on either hitchiking or shuttlers. I walked the MA mid-state trail last summer as a series of bike-hikes. You get to see the territory twice that way. ;)
Cookerhiker
05-26-2008, 09:39
Hear, hear! But I always worry about the "reliability" part.
I made a lot of use of my bicycle, on section hikes in New England -- so as not to be dependent on either hitchiking or shuttlers. I walked the MA mid-state trail last summer as a series of bike-hikes. You get to see the territory twice that way. ;)
I've done "bike-hikes" in various places and find that the cycling portion is always more demanding than the hike. After cycling from my car to the hike starting point, the hike seems easy - even when I did it on the Virginia Roller Coaster.
I've done "bike-hikes" in various places and find that the cycling portion is always more demanding than the hike. After cycling from my car to the hike starting point, the hike seems easy - even when I did it on the Virginia Roller Coaster.
Hmm :-? -- not so here. Hopefully you're lightly loaded as you bike, right?
I'm not at all a fast rider. But even so: the bike ride for a 3 day section hike (say 35 miles) takes maybe three hours. I'll plan accordingly on my first day of hiking -- no "big miles" on the trail following a 35 mile bike ride.
Patrickjd9
05-26-2008, 10:16
My understanding with talking to the folks at the Hike Inn is that it is generally cheaper to have them meet you at the planned end of your hike and have them drop you at the beginning (allowing you to walk back to your car) than it is to have them move your cars.
Moving your cars requires more cars and drivers than riding in the shuttler's.
Jack Tarlin
05-26-2008, 10:37
Some interesting posts, especially Skyline's.
Thanx to all who contributed to the thread.
The service you provide sounds like a courtesy shuttle offered for free by hotels near major airports. Nothing wrong it as long as you are covered by insurance. Although with today's escalating costs, you may have to either start charging a fee or raise your motel rates. You can be kind to hikers all you like, but people should understand that you are a for-profit enterprise.
I agree,But Ron's heart is definetly big when it comes to helping out people. If you know Ron as well as I do, He will do everything he can to keep offering those free shuttles. He is in a difficult situation, because myself and others would understand if he had to start charging fees, but you will also have many others that will bicker and complain and drag Ron's name through the mudd. He already has people complain about the inconvience of his pick up and drop off times even though THEY ARE FREE!!!
Love ya Ron:sun
Some interesting posts, especially Skyline's.
Thanx to all who contributed to the thread.
Thanks Jack. In case you haven't noticed over the years, we are often on the same page regarding Trail-related topics. Politics, not so much, but that's OK. :welcome
warren doyle
05-26-2008, 11:33
Om my numerous AT section hikes, hitching always works fine for me and you can't beat the price.
I have two estimates for shuttling on my upcoming PCT hike in northern CA. One estimate is from a professional (an innkeeper) for $250. The other is from someone on the PCT-L list, for $20. The PCT-Ler I think runs some sort of low-key/unofficial hostel or something. I haven't been out there yet, but my guess was this going to be a 1.5 to 2 hour car trip (one way.) The innkeeper claimed it would tie him up for a whole day, which I have some trouble believing -- the hike is only 100 miles, and it winds a lot.
Om my numerous AT section hikes, hitching always works fine for me and you can't beat the price.
I agree, tho it's easier in some places than others, and under certain conditions than others. I also understand not everyone is comfortable hitchhiking.
I have two estimates for shuttling on my upcoming PCT hike in northern CA. One estimate is from a professional (an innkeeper) for $250. The other is from someone on the PCT-L list, for $20. The PCT-Ler I think runs some sort of low-key/unofficial hostel or something. I haven't been out there yet, but my guess was this going to be a 1.5 to 2 hour car trip (one way.) The innkeeper claimed it would tie him up for a whole day, which I have some trouble believing -- the hike is only 100 miles, and it winds a lot.
Not knowing anything about your hike or the roads necessary to travel to connect trailheads, I'm only going to guess that the driving will require more than 100 miles in each direction. It usually does. Ridgeline trails are typically straight shots compared to nearby driving routes.
Also, keep in mind that a shuttle service needs to consider all the miles, round trip, involved in providing a shuttle. At a minimum, that's going to be 200 miles of roads for your 100-mile hike. Probably a lot more than 200 miles. $250 doesn't seem too out of line to me.
If there is someone willing to do this for 20 bucks, you are indeed fortunate. That person deserves a steak dinner from you! :)
YeOldeBackpacker
05-26-2008, 13:28
I would agree with what skyline has posted, please also remember that each state DOES have different taxes that must be paid, that is of course assuming you are operating as a licensed business and paying taxes. VA tax is way different than NC or PA and NY.
You will always have people that think they are being ripped off, and that is sad, likewise you will also have people that will send you a thank you card because you came and got them at 4am from a train station or sat and waited because their flight was late.
The price of oil is effecting all of us, from shipping costs for retail businesses to the heating oil for lodging, I think most people do understand the rising cost of gas, but they forget how it has a trickle down effect on everything else.
Rates will vary and thats ok, it is based on the area of the country, the local cost of living, commericial or gypsey cab etc.. but to assume that becase you got a shuttle for $.50 a mile is going to be the average, you are going to be sadly disappointed. Most shuttle service providers are feeling this pinch harder than the end user knows, either by trying to downsize vans that get better that 8 to 10 miles per gallon and trying to get people to combine trips with other hikers to save the hikers, not the shuttle providers a few dollars as far a haggling the price, offer the gas station $2.00 a gallon when it's $4.02 a gallon let me know how that turns out for ya.
There are commercial shuttle services, and there are individuals who do it as a sideline, and still others who could best be labelled as trail angels. You can't compare these three types of shuttle providers and come up with the same rates.
Generally, the commercial provider is available long hours almost every day of the year, or at least during the broad hiking season, and may have multiple drivers to provide prompt, efficient, knowledgeable service in newer, better, safer, well maintained vehicles. The better ones will carry ample commercial liability insurance, and possess all permits to do business in national (and if applicable, state) parks and forests.
The "sideline" shuttler is likely an unincorporated individual, not a company—often operating on a part time schedule to make a spare income. Most do not concern themselves with commercial insurance or federal/state permits. Some are quite good at providing ample service, others are not. A few operate a shuttle service in conjunction with another commercial enterprise like a motel, outfitter, or hostel. A hiker must be more flexible when dealing with part time providers.
The trail angel is just that—someone who has a long-term or perhaps a newfound affinity for the hiking community. Some are currently hikers themselves, or have a past thru or section hike to their credit. It is almost certain that they aren't concerned with having commercial insurance, or permits. They do what they do for the love of hikers, and to maintain a connection to the hiking community. They are not usually in it for the money. Bless them. They are usually available on a more limited basis, unless retired or not working by choice or circumstance.
There are certainly exceptions to these generalizations.
This thread is primarily about the commercial shuttle provider, so what follows mostly applies to them.
FAIR EXPECTATIONS
Commercial shuttle providers typically operate on a professional level. They are usually extremely knowledgeable about their region's trails and other nearby amenities. They should be expected to operate ethically, offer telephone and e-mail trip planning, parking options, a website and/or printed literature with plenty of information about their services/policies/fees and highlights of the areas they serve, maintain reliable/safe vehicles, employ congenial and helpful staff, be available on reasonably short notice (one or two days at most), and be willing to provide extra services if requested. Some will even accept credit cards.
The service I am most familiar with positions itself as the "go-to source" for those planning a hiking or backpacking adventure in their region, which is Shenandoah National Park and beyond—not simply a number to call for a ride. It is not unusual for a prospective client to spend 15, 30, 45 minutes or more discussing their needs, desires, fears, and other matters with the service. Sometimes, the service actually devises the whole itinerary for them, much like a travel agency would do for someone planning a major vacation. This is not charged for. The service also provides heads-ups to clients regarding Park regulations, assists with backcountry permits, parking waivers on near-trail private property that is safer than typical trailheads, lets them know about stealth campsites along the way, provides a spreadsheet with water sources listed, and even offers its own on-site parking and the option to use an AT-style shelter and tenting area on its property the night before or the night after a shuttle client's hike—free of charge.
INSURANCE AND MANDATED PERMITS
Commercial outfits will seek to protect their assets by carrying high financial limits of the same type of commercial liability insurance that taxis, limos, and bus fleets do. Most of us probably don't know this, but many regular (Nationwide, Allstate, Geico, etc.) auto liability policies will not pay a claim when/if they discover the accident occurred during the transport of passengers who were paying a fee. This could devastate an individual or business held liable, and it is not helpful at all to the injured parties.
The type of insurance policy that will pay under these "for-hire" circumstances are written by only a few specialty companies, and is quite expensive. I have seen quotes as high as $6,000 per year for just one mini-van; more realistic premiums can be found for about $2,500 contingent upon the drivers having an exemplary record. This compares to a regular consumer policy costing $800 or less per year for a vehicle worth about $20,000 and limits of $100,000 and $300,000 (typical commercial limits are higher than this).
To operate in a national park or national forest (and some state parks or other venues) requires special permits for which one must jump through hoops, pay a start-up fee plus annual fees, and prove that the aforementioned commercial insurance is in force. The US Government, in the case of national parks, must be named specifically as "Additional Insured."
FIXED COSTS
The commercial shuttle provider has several expensive fixed costs that must be paid for prior to legally accepting the first paying customer:
•Cost of the modern, safe vehicle or fleet—which must be replaced every three years or so.
•Cost to maintain and repair each vehicle, and replace expendibles in that vehicle or fleet.
•Cost of the commercial liability insurance.
•Cost of various park and forest permits.
•Cost of its operating infrastructure (landline phones, cell phones, beepers, computers, credit card processing in some cases, maybe a toll-free line)
•Cost of marketing (establishing and maintaining a good website, brochures, paid media, internet search engines, etc.)
FUEL
All categories of providers must contend with the same high cost of fuel everyone is dealing with today. The service I am most acquainted with paid about $900 at the pump in April '08 for fuel required for just one of its mini-vans. This was when gas was closer to $3.30-$3.50/gal., and it was not even high hiker season yet. For May '08, that figure looks like it will exceed $1,500. Where will it end?
PAYROLL
Add to these costs fair compensation for drivers and support staff, and there isn't a whole lot left over for profit.
PROFITABILITY
Profit is usually realized only if enough shuttle traffic (volume) is realized in a given month.
To cover these costs, the ultimate price of a shuttle must include all of the time, driving, and miles necessary to provide that shuttle. From the shuttler's base, to the pickup point, to the dropoff point, and back to the base (or halfway to the next pickup point on those rare occasions when trips fit together nicely). If the driver must wait for a late client to show, or if the driver must make intermediate stops for the client to pick up a maildrop, buy something at a store, etc. there must also be some financial consideration.
When regular unleaded cost less than $3/gal., a service could pay its bills and make a modest profit if it averaged a few moderate trips per day or their equivalent, and charged $1 a mile as described above (base back to base). Today, that just won't cover it. Smart providers are raising their rates as necessary, and hoping their clients understand. Some do, some don't. They are also diversifying into other markets, serving local citizens' long-distance transport needs (distant hospitals, airports, shopping, entertainment needs).
ADVICE FOR HIKERS
It would behoove a hiker needing a shuttle to try and split the cost with one or more hikers—up to the limit that a vehicle can safely carry including gear. IMHO, it isn't necessary to charge extra per person for the same trip up to a vehicle's safe capacity—so if a trip is quoted at $100, that might be good for one person or perhaps four people. If four people, that would only cost $25 per person and is more of a bargain.
It is also important, when requesting a shuttle, to understand where a provider is based. If that's near the start or end point of your shuttle's itinerary, you will likely not feel the price is too high. If both start and end points are outside a provider's sweet spot, you may feel you are being overcharged but consider how far the driver must travel to and from his base to provide that shuttle.
As gas continues to increase in price, and as the part-time shuttle provider or trail angel begins to realize how much his or her assets are at risk by not carrying expensive commercial liability insurance, there may be fewer options available to the hiker requiring a ride. Mass transit in most areas along the AT is non-existent, as these are mainly small communities not served by bus or rail anymore. The cost of a commercial provider's service may seem exhorbitant until one learns about their costs, many of which are mandated, but they can be justified.
Disclaimer: I learned a lot of what I have written about here by helping a close friend set up a commercial service last year in the Shenandoah National Park region. As part of that effort, I solicited input here on WB and other hiker sites and events. I still assist him by helping potential clients plan backpacking trips, and once in awhile driving for him.
My understanding with talking to the folks at the Hike Inn is that it is generally cheaper to have them meet you at the planned end of your hike and have them drop you at the beginning (allowing you to walk back to your car) than it is to have them move your cars.
Moving your cars requires more cars and drivers than riding in the shuttler's.
It might be cheaper in some cases, but it mainly just makes common sense to do the shuttle before the hiking starts, not afterward. This way, you and the shuttler can be more readily assured each will be at the rendezvous point according to plan. There is far less guesswork, and things that can go wrong, involved. It is more pleasurable to hike back to your vehicle at any pace you choose, rather than be stressed out about getting to a shuttle rendezvous point at a specific date and time.
Meet at the place you want to park, get shuttled to the other end of your hike, and then walk back to your vehicle. That's how I section-hiked much of the northern half of the AT. It was good to have my resupply in the truck when I got there, and it gave me town options I wouldn't have had otherwise. It also made me kinda popular with the other hikers I got to know on the Trail. :sun
Not knowing anything about your hike or the roads necessary to travel to connect trailheads, I'm only going to guess that the driving will require more than 100 miles in each direction. It usually does. Ridgeline trails are typically straight shots compared to nearby driving routes.
Also, keep in mind that a shuttle service needs to consider all the miles, round trip, involved in providing a shuttle. At a minimum, that's going to be 200 miles of roads for your 100-mile hike. Probably a lot more than 200 miles. $250 doesn't seem too out of line to me.
If there is someone willing to do this for 20 bucks, you are indeed fortunate. That person deserves a steak dinner from you! :)
FWIW, Google lists the distance (by road) as 75.4 miles, driving time as 1 hour 20 minutes. There's 26 miles of back roads, and 48 miles on I-5. This is from the "town" of Etna back to Castle Crags State Park. The trail itself does a long, squiggly arc between Etna Summit and the state park.
I agree that $20 is quite the bargain!!!
My accountant told me recently my real-world company (printing, graphic design) could reimburse me at the rate of 63 cents per mile for use of my private vehicle for purposes of 2008's tax returns. No idea where that came from, but he's been a good accountant so I'm taking him at his word.
With gas at near $4/gal. as I write this, I'm thinking it could/should go higher.
However, gas is only one of several important factors one must consider as part of the fair cost of a shuttle, even before profit is realized.
More later. I like this thread. But I've got a shuttle to get to!
I think this tax reimbursment rate is great for those shuttlers that actually report this income and I am thinking those numbers very very low to almost non-existent.
;)
Lone Wolf
05-26-2008, 16:52
I'm getting ready to do a section in central VA, and I'll need two shuttles in Daleville to make it happen. The outfitter charges $1.25 per mile one way. I think that's the deal of the century. Just figuring out what it would cost in gas to bring two cars and do our own shuttles makes their shuttle the cheaper option.
I've had some recent shuttles in Damascus that I thought were pretty darn cheap, too. Just have to add the shuttle cost to the overall cost of hiking.
i do drive cheap for certain people. namely section hikers. they have great attitudes and aren't tight asses like thru-hikers.
i do drive cheap for certain people. namely section hikers. they have great attitudes and aren't tight asses like thru-hikers.
Admit it, Lone Wolf. You often do the same for thru hikers, don't you?
Weary
Lone Wolf
05-26-2008, 20:48
Admit it, Lone Wolf. You often do the same for thru hikers, don't you?
Weary
rarely......
FWIW, Google lists the distance (by road) as 75.4 miles, driving time as 1 hour 20 minutes. There's 26 miles of back roads, and 48 miles on I-5. This is from the "town" of Etna back to Castle Crags State Park. The trail itself does a long, squiggly arc between Etna Summit and the state park.
I agree that $20 is quite the bargain!!!
That is indeed unusual. Maybe the terrain out west is different, or the trails are laid out differently. Here in the east, it is more common for a ridgeline trail to to be the straightest distance between two points (of course there are exceptions), and it's the roads that meander.
Regarding the Google results, that would be about 150 miles of driving round trip. If that was here in the area I'm familiar with, the cost would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $170 to $175 barring extenuating circumstances.
In any case, um, I'd definitely go with the $20 quote if you're sure it's safe and reliable. ;)
gold bond
05-27-2008, 13:56
Ron rocks! It's worth the price just to hear his stories...again and again....!!!! Never had a bad experience using shuttles, just some that I liked better than the others. I have to tip my hat to the guys and gals that shuttle us section hikers. We usually hike on the weekends and holidays and it takes away from thier family time as well so a big "THANKS" to all that shuttle!
Last mth I paid $60 for a shuttle from Atkins to Damascus and I gave the driver a $20 tip. It was well worth it to me -- exactly on time, I didn't have to wonder if/when I could catch a ride, didn't have to be embarrassed for smelling like a pig, etc.
I didn't mind the cost a bit, but I'm lucky enough not to have to worry about money.
Lone Wolf
05-27-2008, 14:11
Last mth I paid $60 for a shuttle from Atkins to Damascus and I gave the driver a $20 tip. It was well worth it to me -- exactly on time, I didn't have to wonder if/when I could catch a ride, didn't have to be embarrassed for smelling like a pig, etc.
I didn't mind the cost a bit, but I'm lucky enough not to have to worry about money.
wow. $60 is a lot. i ask $40 for the same shuttle. it's only 37 miles and all level highway
DesertMTB
05-27-2008, 14:16
Ron rocks! It's worth the price just to hear his stories...again and again....!!!! Never had a bad experience using shuttles, just some that I liked better than the others. I have to tip my hat to the guys and gals that shuttle us section hikers. We usually hike on the weekends and holidays and it takes away from thier family time as well so a big "THANKS" to all that shuttle!
His stories are great. And informative. When I was hiking this weekend I kept thinking about the African Americans he told me about that were forced to live in the hills. Apparently some black children would come down at night and steal chickens. So they set the hills on fire.
wow. $60 is a lot. i ask $40 for the same shuttle. it's only 37 miles and all level highway
You must be one of them thar trail angels I said "Bless you" to in an earlier post.
Bless you.
Lone Wolf
05-27-2008, 14:38
You must be one of them thar trail angels I said "Bless you" to in an earlier post.
Bless you.
i ain't no angel but i ain't a gouger either. i just did a shuttle to shady valley. 17 miles. i figured $5 for gas and the rest for dot's. took less than an hour up and back. others charge $30
DesertMTB
05-27-2008, 14:44
Is it appropriate to tip a shuttler???
I paid Nancy from the Hike Inn $45 to shuttle me from Stecoah Gap to the NOC this past weekend. I didn't even think about tipping.
Lone Wolf
05-27-2008, 14:45
Is it appropriate to tip a shuttler???
I paid Nancy from the Hike Inn $45 to shuttle me from Stecoah Gap to the NOC this past weekend. I didn't even think about tipping.
hell no. i refuse tips. i'm already charging
bigcranky
05-27-2008, 15:35
i do drive cheap for certain people. namely section hikers. they have great attitudes and aren't tight asses like thru-hikers.
I'm going to put that on my tombstone: "Not a tight-ass...."
Thanks for the kind words :sun
i ain't no angel but i ain't a gouger either. i just did a shuttle to shady valley. 17 miles. i figured $5 for gas and the rest for dot's. took less than an hour up and back. others charge $30
At those prices, you're an angel. I mean that in a good way.
Is it appropriate to tip a shuttler???
I paid Nancy from the Hike Inn $45 to shuttle me from Stecoah Gap to the NOC this past weekend. I didn't even think about tipping.
If the driver went out of his or her way to be helpful, I see nothing wrong with a tip.
Examples: Pointing out local sites of interest, identifying trail crossings, letting you know how certain springs are flowing (in dry times), making a stop enroute so you can pick up an item at a store or a maildrop at the post office, taking your bounce box and shipping it for you.
Is it appropriate to tip a shuttler???
I paid Nancy from the Hike Inn $45 to shuttle me from Stecoah Gap to the NOC this past weekend. I didn't even think about tipping.
Whoa, for that price, no tip is necessary. Isn't that like 15 trail miles or less??
Lone Wolf
05-27-2008, 16:26
Whoa, for that price, no tip is necessary. Isn't that like 15 trail miles or less??
20 miles tops by road, 13 by trail
20 miles tops by road, 13 by trail
Google Maps says 24.7 from NOC to Fontana Dam. Subtract about 6 mi., I think, between Hike Inn and the dam, so you have 18.7 between Hike Inn and NOC. Coming or going, they'd simply stop at Stecoah Gap which is enroute.
To provide that shuttle Hike Inn needs to travel 18.7 x 2 (37.4 miles)—from their base, ending back at their base—on curvy two-lane mountainous roads. $45 seems about right to me. Jeff and Nancy are good people. They wouldn't gouge, but they run a business and that business is what pays the bills and puts food on the table.
With owner/operator shuttle services there is probably no need to tip. I have tipped employee/drivers, since they are only getting a piece of the action.
On two trips, I was tempted to tip the owner/operator to shaddup. Yada, yada yada about nothing gets old, fast when going 70 miles. Instead, I just took a nap and let them yack at my brother. :)
Cookerhiker
05-27-2008, 19:29
i do drive cheap for certain people. namely section hikers. they have great attitudes and aren't tight asses like thru-hikers.
Like you did for me and you even bought me coffee - a reverse tip!
Google Maps says 24.7 from NOC to Fontana Dam. Subtract about 6 mi., I think, between Hike Inn and the dam, so you have 18.7 between Hike Inn and NOC. Coming or going, they'd simply stop at Stecoah Gap which is enroute.
To provide that shuttle Hike Inn needs to travel 18.7 x 2 (37.4 miles)—from their base, ending back at their base—on curvy two-lane mountainous roads. $45 seems about right to me. Jeff and Nancy are good people. They wouldn't gouge, but they run a business and that business is what pays the bills and puts food on the table.
You are correct and I didn't mean to make it sound that he got ripped off. The Hoch's are good people and gas is astronomical. When you break it down, yeah, it makes sense to charge that, times are a-changin'. Just the idea of 45 bucks to move 13 trail miles seems crazy in my mind.
Lone Wolf
05-27-2008, 20:16
Google Maps says 24.7 from NOC to Fontana Dam. Subtract about 6 mi., I think, between Hike Inn and the dam, so you have 18.7 between Hike Inn and NOC. Coming or going, they'd simply stop at Stecoah Gap which is enroute.
To provide that shuttle Hike Inn needs to travel 18.7 x 2 (37.4 miles)—from their base, ending back at their base—on curvy two-lane mountainous roads. $45 seems about right to me. Jeff and Nancy are good people. They wouldn't gouge, but they run a business and that business is what pays the bills and puts food on the table.
i disagree. way too much for that short shuttle
That is indeed unusual. Maybe the terrain out west is different, or the trails are laid out differently. Here in the east, it is more common for a ridgeline trail to to be the straightest distance between two points (of course there are exceptions), and it's the roads that meander.
This is one twisted chunk of trail. It goes west, then due north, then southwest, then north again. The start and end points are probably 50-60 miles apart, as the crow flies. (I can name a few AT sections that are almost as twisted.)
Regarding the Google results, that would be about 150 miles of driving round trip. If that was here in the area I'm familiar with, the cost would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $170 to $175 barring extenuating circumstances.
In any case, um, I'd definitely go with the $20 quote if you're sure it's safe and reliable. ;)Nothing's known to be "reliable" until it's done and over with. I just spoke to this shuttler again yesterday (via email.) She hints that we're arriving with the northbound PCT "wave." So I offered $100 to clinch a spot on her schedule. She counter-offered with $50. And for some reason she wants to meet us at the start of the hike, even though I hadn't asked for that.
Offhand, it doesn't seem to me that "I" (as customer) should have to worry about (or pay for) a shuttler's round-trip expenses. For sure, that the shuttler needs to consider those expenses, but my benefit (as customer) is one direction, not two.
Prior to my 2007 section I scouted for shuttlers that could get me from Allentown PA to Lehigh Gap. Only one would commit, and he quoted round-trip distances to figure his price. In fact, he quoted round trip distance based on his home location, which made it even worse. It would have been like $60-80 for a 15-20-mile ride.
The heck with that. I took the "W" bus, and walked the last three miles from Slatington.
(PS: FWIW, in 2006, a trail angel/volunteer (listed in AT Shuttle services) took me from Lehigh Gap to Allentown for $20. I'm not sure where she lived.)
Offhand, it doesn't seem to me that "I" (as customer) should have to worry about (or pay for) a shuttler's round-trip expenses. For sure, that the shuttler needs to consider those expenses, but my benefit (as customer) is one direction, not two.
This is probably one of the two most controversial points about shuttle prices.
I think the controversy arises because those seeking a shuttle compare trail shuttles to urban taxicabs, who are part of a large fleet, and whose dispatcher probably has someone cruising the neighborhood or sitting waiting for a call just a few minutes away. Under that scenario, you should pay only for a one-way ride plus whatever nominal base fee is allowed by regulators to be on the meter from the start.
Except in the rarest of circumstances, that's not even close to the way trail shuttles work. In the example of most section hikers (the major market for AT shuttle services), they often drive from somewhere (usually home or a base of operations) a long distance to meet you where you want to park, then drive you to your hike's start point, and then have to drive back to their home or base. It is not unusual for some of those miles to be on unpaved back roads that slow you down and do a number on your vehicle. All of those miles must be driven, or the shuttle can't be provided. It is rare that there will be another shuttle directly before yours, or directly after yours, that would mesh well with your parking spot or your hike's start point—so the driver will almost always be starting from and returning to his or her home/base.
We just can't pretend that these miles don't exist, that some magic carpet flies the shuttler to meet you at your parking spot, and flies him home after he drops you off. These miles cost the driver (or the shuttle service) time, gas, wear and tear, and on a busy day might cause him to not be able to do another shuttle in a distant location. Someone must pay for these miles. Who do you think that should be?
I wrote that there were two points of controversy. Here's the other one:
Let's say the shuttle service is based in Delaware Water Gap PA. His sweet spot is Lehigh Gap PA to High Point NJ. He probably can provide shuttles in this region efficiently and for a reasonable cost, so long as your shuttle starts and ends between Lehigh Gap and High Point.
But you've called everyone on the list to do a shuttle between Duncannon and Port Clinton. The only person available is the guy in DWG. It will be necessary for him to drive way out of his region to pick you up at Duncannon and drop you off at Port Clinton. Should he charge you just for the miles between Duncannon and Port Clinton, or should his charge be based on all the miles, and all the time, required to provide the shuttle you requested (DWG to Duncannon, up to Port Clinton, back to DWG)?
i disagree. way too much for that short shuttle
For someone who doesn't rely upon the income, who does it just to be a good guy, I see your point.
For a business trying to pay the bills and earn a meager living, $45 is not out of line IMHO.
You're a good guy who has proven himself to be a friend hikers can rely upon. But from things you've written in the past, I'm pretty sure you don't rely upon shuttle income to pay your bills. Hikers are lucky when they can get you to do a shuttle for them, and I'm betting you enjoy helping most of them—just that money isn't your reason for doing so.
The Hochs are good people too. They can work from 5am to midnight seven days a week during the busy season. If you know them and their standard of living, you know they haven't become wealthy running a small motel and running shuttles. If they charge $45 to drive a total of 37.4 miles, you can be sure that's what they need to just stay afloat. If they charged what you charge, they'd be out of business, looking for some other line of work.
Fortunately, there is enough shuttle business to go around to support your desire to help out hikers, and the Hochs' need to make a living.
Well, Skyline -- I see both sides, really. So where possible, I fend for myself. But that's harder to do when you're far from home, or when time is limited. Between the two of us, my nephew and I will be spending well over a grand on airfare just to get to/from CA. It looks like getting from SFO to/from the respective trailheads will be another $750 (rental car and shuttle.) It's a lot of $$$ for a 100-mile trek. Wish I had more time to give it.
Lone Wolf
05-27-2008, 22:37
For someone who doesn't rely upon the income, who does it just to be a good guy, I see your point.
For a business trying to pay the bills and earn a meager living, $45 is not out of line IMHO.
You're a good guy who has proven himself to be a friend hikers can rely upon. But from things you've written in the past, I'm pretty sure you don't rely upon shuttle income to pay your bills. Hikers are lucky when they can get you to do a shuttle for them, and I'm betting you enjoy helping most of them—just that money isn't your reason for doing so.
The Hochs are good people too. They can work from 5am to midnight seven days a week during the busy season. If you know them and their standard of living, you know they haven't become wealthy running a small motel and running shuttles. If they charge $45 to drive a total of 37.4 miles, you can be sure that's what they need to just stay afloat. If they charged what you charge, they'd be out of business, looking for some other line of work.
Fortunately, there is enough shuttle business to go around to support your desire to help out hikers, and the Hochs' need to make a living.
wrong. these days i rely on the cash to pay bills. i mow lawns and drive bike shuttles for a local shuttler. $45 for that shuttle is wrong
Well, Skyline -- I see both sides, really. So where possible, I fend for myself. But that's harder to do when you're far from home, or when time is limited. Between the two of us, my nephew and I will be spending well over a grand on airfare just to get to/from CA. It looks like getting from SFO to/from the respective trailheads will be another $750 (rental car and shuttle.) It's a lot of $$$ for a 100-mile trek. Wish I had more time to give it.
And I can see your point as well. The only way I could hike the whole AT was in sections, because of other obligations. I used many, many shuttle services. It got to be expensive, but using shuttlers was the most effective way to do it and be able to derive maximum woods time. I found the for-profit shuttlers to be more reliable and more flexible, but also had some good experiences with part-timers and trail angels (and some not-so-great). Hell, I even had good experiences hitchhiking, but that's just not very efficient in some places.
wrong. these days i rely on the cash to pay bills. i mow lawns and drive bike shuttles for a local shuttler. $45 for that shuttle is wrong
Earlier today you wrote: "i ain't no angel but i ain't a gouger either. i just did a shuttle to shady valley. 17 miles. i figured $5 for gas and the rest for dot's. took less than an hour up and back. others charge $30."
You don't say what your total charge was, but I'm guessing it must have been well under $30? Five bucks for gas, the rest for Dot's....no mention of paying bills.
To provide that shuttle from Damascus to Shady Valley (and at some point you had to drive back to Damascus) would require 34 miles of your time, gas, wear and tear, etc.
If you are relying on this shuttle money to pay your bills, there must be very few bills or a helluva lot of shuttles. In any case, you're not really being fair to compare your situation to others, but you are being a good friend to hikers.
Lone Wolf
05-27-2008, 22:52
Earlier today you wrote: "i ain't no angel but i ain't a gouger either. i just did a shuttle to shady valley. 17 miles. i figured $5 for gas and the rest for dot's. took less than an hour up and back. others charge $30."
You don't say what your total charge was, but I'm guessing it must have been well under $30? Five bucks for gas, the rest for Dot's....no mention of paying bills.
To provide that shuttle from Damascus to Shady Valley (and at some point you had to drive back to Damascus) would require 34 miles of your time, gas, wear and tear, etc.
If you are relying on this shuttle money to pay your bills, there must be very few bills or a helluva lot of shuttles. In any case, you're not really being fair to compare your situation to others, but you are being a good friend to hikers.
whatever. $45 for a 20 mile shuttle is gouging
There is a difference between price gouging and maintaining a profitable business. Skyline's thoughts on pricing sounds like smart business, not gouging. AND, the shuttler does need to charge based on HIS miles, not the hikers, in order to maintain his business at a profit. Squeeze the profit, the shuttler moves onto something else and the hikers could be stuck with fewer alternatives or no ride at all. The casual shuttler's cost structure is likely to be very different than someone who is more focused on shuttling than other activities. For instance, a professional shuttler is going to carry the appropriate, and expensive, insurance, whereas more casual operators are taking their chances.
For instance, a professional shuttler is going to carry the appropriate, and expensive, insurance, whereas more casual operators are taking their chances.
Right, but considering the risks that long-distance hikers take on a daily basis, we're not so sympathetic with a shuttler's need for "insurance." (And isn't insurance mandatory for a license, anyway?)
Whatever, it's always catch-as-catch-can with this stuff. Sometimes I'm happy to pay $$ for reliable service -- but I've learned that $$ won't guarantee reliability. I've used very few "professional" shuttlers in my time, though over the years I've become a bit more willing to suffer the cost. Between luck, $$$ and going-it-alone, I've done something like 19 AT sections since 1997 or so. Getting to/from the trail is always part of the adventure... :D Trains, planes and automobiles!
Right, but considering the risks that long-distance hikers take on a daily basis, we're not so sympathetic with a shuttler's need for "insurance." (And isn't insurance mandatory for a license, anyway?)
Whatever, it's always catch-as-catch-can with this stuff. Sometimes I'm happy to pay $$ for reliable service -- but I've learned that $$ won't guarantee reliability. I've used very few "professional" shuttlers in my time, though over the years I've become a bit more willing to suffer the cost. Between luck, $$$ and going-it-alone, I've done something like 19 AT sections since 1997 or so. Getting to/from the trail is always part of the adventure... :D Trains, planes and automobiles!
What risk do long distance hikers face? I worked in Manhattan for many years, always felt safer on the trail. And you survive Boston area traffic on a regular basis, no? Talk about risks! Regarding insurance, I was comparing professional shuttlers who carry professional insurance versus people like LW who could be in deep doo if something happens. Agree with it or not, professional insurance and its costs are a necessary evil in our litigious society.
The shuttlers I have used in VT and NH were very professional and reliable, but not inexpensive, except Pack Rat at Hikers Welcome Hostel in Glencliff. He was almost too reasonable and went out of his way for us. Now there is a hiker, who has some miles, doesn't brag and has great stories!
I agree the getting to the trail is an adventure, not to mention a pain at times.
Lone Wolf
05-27-2008, 23:51
What risk do long distance hikers face? I worked in Manhattan for many years, always felt safer on the trail. And you survive Boston area traffic on a regular basis, no? Talk about risks! Regarding insurance, I was comparing professional shuttlers who carry professional insurance versus people like LW who could be in deep doo if something happens.
The shuttlers I have used in VT and NH were very professional and reliable, but not inexpensive, except Pack Rat at Hikers Welcome Hostel in Glencliff. He was almost too reasonable and went out of his way for us. Now there is a hiker, who has some miles, doesn't brag and has great stories!
I agree the getting to the trail is an adventure, not to mention a pain at times.
huh? i have liability insurance. what kind of doo doo will i be in if something "happens"? i'm very professional and safe. i ain't greedy like most
What risk do long distance hikers face? I worked in Manhattan for many years, always felt safer on the trail.
I've walked thru parts of Manhattan twice, in full hiking regalia, on my way to/from recent sections.
On my way home in 2006 I was walking across town from Port Authority to Grand Central. (I'm way too cheap to pay for a cab. Sheesh.... ) It started to rain a bit, I hardly noticed it. An attractive, friendly, 30-ish woman sidled up to me and walked with me for most of the way, covering both of us with her umbrella. New Yorkers, gotta love 'em.
huh? i have liability insurance. what kind of doo doo will i be in if something "happens"? i'm very professional and safe. i ain't greedy like most
I meant nothing to the contrary of you being professional or safe, but have you checked your coverage? Are you covered for liability as a "paid" service provider? This is very different insurance than needed for driving with a friend, which I assume you will claim (no pay) if something bad happens. That may work for you, but others should be careful. And this is a big reason why costs, and therefore prices, are very different for people who are setup as a full-time shuttle service.
I've walked thru parts of Manhattan twice, in full hiking regalia, on my way to/from recent sections.
On my way home in 2006 I was walking across town from Port Authority to Grand Central. (I'm way too cheap to pay for a cab. Sheesh.... ) It started to rain a bit, I hardly noticed it. An attractive, friendly, 30-ish woman sidled up to me and walked with me for most of the way, covering both of us with her umbrella. New Yorkers, gotta love 'em.
That's an easy walk, no need to dress up there big fella. ;)
Lone Wolf
05-28-2008, 00:03
I meant nothing to the contrary of you being professional or safe, but have you checked your coverage? Are you covered for liability as a "paid" service provider? This is very different insurance than needed for driving with a friend, which I assume you will claim (no pay) if something bad happens. That may work for you, but others should be careful. And this is a big reason why costs, and therefore prices, are very different for people who are setup as a full-time shuttle service.
whatever. don't use me for a shuttle if you ever get this way. use the overpriced professionals
That's an easy walk, no need to dress up there big fella. ;)
Chicks dig that big green Camp Trails pack and those beefy calves. Whatever works, I ain't complainin'.
whatever. don't use me for a shuttle if you ever get this way. use the overpriced professionals
You can "whatever" all you like, but people in the business full-time gotta follow the lawyer rules. It is unfortunate really.
And I would call you, because I wouldn't deny you the chance to turn me down. :)
Note to Fannypack who seems to think I have too much time on my hands.
Um, I'm helping out an Outfitter friend this week, and the question of shuttles and shuttle costs comes up around fifteen times a day. If I raised the subject, it's becasue it's one I've been dealing with a lot lately. All I wanted was to get other people's opinions on the subject. That OK with you?
Jack, thanks for your time and information. Not for me, but for those that it affects the most; hikers and service providers.
Interesting how some folks just don't appreciate someone taking their time to gather and post such information. Keep it up.
huh? i have liability insurance. what kind of doo doo will i be in if something "happens"? i'm very professional and safe. i ain't greedy like most
In Virginia (and I assume at least some other states) a regular consumer-type auto insurance carrier like Nationwide, Allstate, Geico, etc. does not write "for-hire" liability insurance. That's the kind taxis, limos, bus fleets, etc. must carry. It's the kind trail shuttle providers who charge anything need to carry to protect their assets. It's what you must carry to get a permit to operate inside national parks and forests. And in Virginia, anyway, you are supposed to have those "for hire" license plates which begin with "H."
If you only have "regular" consumer-type liability insurance, and you have an accident while shuttling, you better hope nobody finds out you were charging for the ride. Doesn't matter if it's a little or a lot. Gas money or a professional fee structure. That consumer-type insurer will not pay your claim if they find out. They will also cancel your policy and the next insurance you try to buy elsewhere will cost a lot more.
Heaven forbid someone gets seriously hurt. Without proper commercial liability insurance in force, in high amounts, you'll get sued and everything you own will be in jeopardy. You can bet the plaintiffs' lawyers will find out you were charging for the ride—and when your insurer denies the claim you'll be the target. I know of a small time limo operator who had a decent middle class life in a good neighborhood in Northern Virginia who tried to get by without commercial insurance. The unthinkable happened. People were maimed for life, he lost everything, and it tore him and his family apart. This is real.
Commercial liability insurance costs between three and ten times what regular consumer liability insurance costs....depending on the driving record of those listed as drivers and the vehicle being insured. Only a handful of companies even write this kind of insurance in the USA, so there's only so much shopping around for a good deal you can do. This is one reason why some shuttlers charge what they charge. It doesn't all go in their pockets.
Skyline -- how does the law apply to semi-volunteers who provide shuttles more or less "at cost" or for small change? How about folks on the AT Shuttle Provider list -- many of whom are not professionals, but who charge anyway. I can name scads of small-time hostel-keepers and B&B proprietors who offer shuttles for free or at nominal cost. Are these guys all "at risk?" :-?
Jack, thanks for your time and information. Not for me, but for those that it affects the most; hikers and service providers.
Jack's list is a useful resource, but you know, most of that info is contained in the various guides for folks willing to dig a bit. It hits the high spots and gives a sense of where the herd is likely to go.
Jack gave an entertaining lecture at last fall's Gathering, I must admit. At least most of the audience thought so.
Skyline -- how does the law apply to semi-volunteers who provide shuttles more or less "at cost" or for small change? How about folks on the AT Shuttle Provider list -- many of whom are not professionals, but who charge anyway. I can name scads of small-time hostel-keepers and B&B proprietors who offer shuttles for free or at nominal cost. Are these guys all "at risk?" :-?
My Nationwide agent (who writes most of my other auto, homeowners, and insurance for my printing business) told me, last year, that you can't try to outsmart the system. If the personal injury lawyers representing a plaintiff—or the investigators representing your own insurance company—find out that you were charging anything, no matter what you might call it, it would cause companies like Nationwide to deny the claim and then you're on your own. He also said what I already knew—that personal injury lawyers, and investigators, aren't earning their keep unless they sniff out everything that might make the other guy look bad.
So, while helping Rodney set up his shuttle business, I had quite a time even finding the companies that write the "for-hire" insurance. We finally settled on a company that wants $2,500 per year per vehicle, and that's for a modest late-model mini-van and two drivers with no points. It doesn't matter how often you use that vehicle, the fact that it exists and is potentially available 24/7 for hire is all they look at.
I do think many wonderful, sweet folks who either help out hikers for a pittance (gas money, donations, etc.) as well as some part-timers who just try to earn a little to supplement their SS checks, are at risk under this scenario.Of course, if you don't have any assets in your name, well, maybe not so much but that's not going to help any injured party collect for their medical bills.
I've heard—second hand—that the reason the Waynesboro (VA) Trail Angels (a loose collection of mostly seniors who are available for short-distance shuttles during hiker season) absolutely refuse to take a dime from anyone is because of the insurance situation. Turns out, you can give away rides for free (not taking a dime even for gas money) and your regular "consumer" insurance would suffice.
Turns out, you can give away rides for free (not taking a dime even for gas money) and your regular "consumer" insurance would suffice.
So they accept the "donation" after the shuttle safely arrives.
Lone Wolf
05-28-2008, 04:18
In Virginia (and I assume at least some other states) a regular consumer-type auto insurance carrier like Nationwide, Allstate, Geico, etc. does not write "for-hire" liability insurance. That's the kind taxis, limos, bus fleets, etc. must carry. It's the kind trail shuttle providers who charge anything need to carry to protect their assets. It's what you must carry to get a permit to operate inside national parks and forests. And in Virginia, anyway, you are supposed to have those "for hire" license plates which begin with "H."
If you only have "regular" consumer-type liability insurance, and you have an accident while shuttling, you better hope nobody finds out you were charging for the ride. Doesn't matter if it's a little or a lot. Gas money or a professional fee structure. That consumer-type insurer will not pay your claim if they find out. They will also cancel your policy and the next insurance you try to buy elsewhere will cost a lot more.
Heaven forbid someone gets seriously hurt. Without proper commercial liability insurance in force, in high amounts, you'll get sued and everything you own will be in jeopardy. You can bet the plaintiffs' lawyers will find out you were charging for the ride—and when your insurer denies the claim you'll be the target. I know of a small time limo operator who had a decent middle class life in a good neighborhood in Northern Virginia who tried to get by without commercial insurance. The unthinkable happened. People were maimed for life, he lost everything, and it tore him and his family apart. This is real.
Commercial liability insurance costs between three and ten times what regular consumer liability insurance costs....depending on the driving record of those listed as drivers and the vehicle being insured. Only a handful of companies even write this kind of insurance in the USA, so there's only so much shopping around for a good deal you can do. This is one reason why some shuttlers charge what they charge. It doesn't all go in their pockets.
i guess i'll quit helping out hikers then. no more shuttles
i guess i'll quit helping out hikers then. no more shuttles
Gives you a new "appreciation" for our laws and litigators. :rolleyes:
LIhikers
05-28-2008, 07:15
As a section hiker, every time out to the trail has involved a shuttle for me and my wife. When I call a shuttler to make a "reservation" I either acccept their price or explain that I need to find a cheaper ride and never try to haggle with them. I figure a week or two of hiking is still a cheap vacation even if the shuttle cost seems on the high side.
From my point of view there's nothing wrong with a person charging enough to actually make a profit doing shuttles. It's their time and that's not anything they can ever recover.
So they accept the "donation" after the shuttle safely arrives.
Of course, anyone can do what they wish. There isn't some Trail Matron looking over anyone's shoulder.
Just know that insurance companies pay a lot of money to expert investigators to avoid paying claims, and a van full of strangers involved in an accident in your van is going to raise red flags that will result in depositions. Probably under oath. Someone is going to spill the beans when the attorneys intimidate them, and when your ex-passengers are seeking a way to pay their medical bills their allegiance isn't likely to be to you.
In the course of an investigation into an accident which resulted in injuries, there will be plenty of ways for insurance investigators to find out you had been taking money for shuttles in the past. That scenario that you would be only taking a "donation" at the end of the shuttle would be looked at through that filter.
i guess i'll quit helping out hikers then. no more shuttles
That's one option. Another would be to go legit.
If you choose the latter, I'm thinking you'll change your tune about that $45 shuttle price.
Lone Wolf
05-28-2008, 10:26
That's one option. Another would be to go legit.
If you choose the latter, I'm thinking you'll change your tune about that $45 shuttle price.
how do you know they're "legit"?
how do you know they're "legit"?
I don't know the inside workings of anyone else's shuttle business, just the one I helped Rodney start last year. He's definitely playing by the book.
minnesotasmith
05-28-2008, 10:28
In Virginia (and I assume at least some other states) a regular consumer-type auto insurance carrier like Nationwide, Allstate, Geico, etc. does not write "for-hire" liability insurance. That's the kind taxis, limos, bus fleets, etc. must carry. It's the kind trail shuttle providers who charge anything need to carry to protect their assets. It's what you must carry to get a permit to operate inside national parks and forests. And in Virginia, anyway, you are supposed to have those "for hire" license plates which begin with "H."
If you only have "regular" consumer-type liability insurance, and you have an accident while shuttling, you better hope nobody finds out you were charging for the ride. Doesn't matter if it's a little or a lot. Gas money or a professional fee structure. That consumer-type insurer will not pay your claim if they find out. They will also cancel your policy and the next insurance you try to buy elsewhere will cost a lot more.
Heaven forbid someone gets seriously hurt. Without proper commercial liability insurance in force, in high amounts, you'll get sued and everything you own will be in jeopardy. You can bet the plaintiffs' lawyers will find out you were charging for the ride—and when your insurer denies the claim you'll be the target. I know of a small time limo operator who had a decent middle class life in a good neighborhood in Northern Virginia who tried to get by without commercial insurance. The unthinkable happened. People were maimed for life, he lost everything, and it tore him and his family apart. This is real.
Commercial liability insurance costs between three and ten times what regular consumer liability insurance costs....depending on the driving record of those listed as drivers and the vehicle being insured. Only a handful of companies even write this kind of insurance in the USA, so there's only so much shopping around for a good deal you can do. This is one reason why some shuttlers charge what they charge. It doesn't all go in their pockets.
IMO, it's also good advice for anyone who might get environmental agency attention paid to their land, who is a public figure, who wants to operate any business, who might be deemed to owe extra taxes (anyone with a job), anyone at risk of child support/divorce (e.g., anyone with children/married, or who might have children and/or get married in the future), given how the courts are insane these days.
What you do is minimize the odds that what you have can be found to be stolen by lawyers or other thieves. You either have a renewable short term leased vehicle, or drive an old beater with a negative blue-book value, something like the company vehicle in the "Ghostbusters" movie about 100,000 miles later. You keep minimum funds in a bank account at ALL times (lawyers and courts can watch your accounts, and seize them when the balance is briefly at a high point). You don't have a 410k or own any land, developed or not. Limit credit card balances/limits/#s of cards as much as possible. Any stocks you own, you have as bearer certificates, not kept at home. What equipment you have for your work, is not in your name and stored off your residence/place of business. You don't have a safety deposit box, or if you do, you keep nothing of monetary or informational value in it. You keep any savings, expensive tools, memorabilia, expensive software, files/records, jewelry, costly reference books, specialty electronics, all but one of your firearms, etc., at a location your name is not associated with in any way (friend of a friend's storage unit/house, say), and AFAP no one in your household/workplace/neighborhood knows where it is, living as if your residence could burn down at any time. Ideally, your income comes from cash from informal sales/services from working for yourself with no paper trail, NOT from an easy-to-garnish regular job/pension.
Keep a low profile as you go through your life, not getting on the bad side of any LEO, lawyer, gov't worker, member of the media, or wealthy person with major local influence if at all possible. And, it goes without saying, not to even keep acquaintance with anyone who has a history of using ANY illegal/controlled substance, is an alcoholic, is mentally unstable, has a criminal record, or who is frequently broke to the point of strongly wanting money they can't earn, as they are all risk factors to your safety, finances, and freedom. And, for God's sake, don't use drugs, drink and drive, poach, engage in anything blackmailable, get romantically involved with people committed to someone else, or do any traditional criminal activity (illegal gambling, prostitution, get in fights, etc.) yourself.
Do these things, and your safety against "legal" theft, such as that discussed earlier in this thread, is nearly assured. A jerk who wrongfully sues an apparently broke person ends up with nothing but legal fees, a happy ending in any moral person's book. :)
Cookerhiker
05-28-2008, 12:23
Of course, anyone can do what they wish. There isn't some Trail Matron looking over anyone's shoulder.
Just know that insurance companies pay a lot of money to expert investigators to avoid paying claims, and a van full of strangers involved in an accident in your van is going to raise red flags that will result in depositions. Probably under oath. Someone is going to spill the beans when the attorneys intimidate them, and when your ex-passengers are seeking a way to pay their medical bills their allegiance isn't likely to be to you.
In the course of an investigation into an accident which resulted in injuries, there will be plenty of ways for insurance investigators to find out you had been taking money for shuttles in the past. That scenario that you would be only taking a "donation" at the end of the shuttle would be looked at through that filter.
I was planning to offer shuttle services for the Great Allegheny Passage (http://www.atatrail.org/) and went to my local bike shop to get their advice; actually I was hoping to place an advertising flyer with them. What I heard was don't even think about it unless you have insurance. Furthermore, the insurance is prohibitively expensive.
I'll still shuttle people I know.
Just know that insurance companies pay a lot of money to expert investigators to avoid paying claims, and a van full of strangers involved in an accident in your van is going to raise red flags that will result in depositions.
I'm thinking about my departure from Rainbow Springs campground many years ago... standing in the back of flatbed truck with about a dozen other hikers. :eek:
I don't know the inside workings of anyone else's shuttle business, just the one I helped Rodney start last year. He's definitely playing by the book.
Playing by the book set up by the insurance industry. Has anyone heard of an AT shuttle being involved in an accident?
I'm thinking about my departure from Rainbow Springs campground many years ago... standing in the back of flatbed truck with about a dozen other hikers. :eek:
Been there, done that. In fact I've hauled a dozen or so hikers at one time, some of whom had to squeeze in the bed of a truck.
Of course that was about 10 years ago, before I knew better.
Playing by the book set up by the insurance industry. Has anyone heard of an AT shuttle being involved in an accident?
No, and I hope we never do.
I can tell you I've received more than one shuttle from someone who would have blown a .12 or higher if stopped by the cops. That's a recipe for disaster.
Playing by the book set up by the insurance industry. Has anyone heard of an AT shuttle being involved in an accident?
Actually, it is a conspiracy. The insurance industry sets their prices based on lawsuit payouts, lawmakers put together the laws that make this possible, lawyers put together and file the lawsuits, and hmm, leaving something our there. Oh yeah, plantiffs call their lawyers and say, "let's sue the b--turds!!!".
Oh yeah, plantiffs call their lawyers and say, "let's sue the b--turds!!!".
What plantiffs? Few, if any has been involved in a accident doing an AT shuttle. Why pay an extra $2500 per year? Normal insurance should cover a possible accident, especially if you're only doing a dozen shuttles a year.
What plantiffs? Few, if any has been involved in a accident doing an AT shuttle. Why pay an extra $2500 per year? Normal insurance should cover a possible accident, especially if you're only doing a dozen shuttles a year.
Read skyline's post. Someone sues, the investigators come out. If you are doing a dozen shuttles a year, don't charge. If you plan to charge, get the pro insurance. Any other approach is an accident waiting to happen. Like I said earlier, it is unfortunate, but that is how things work.
If you are doing a dozen shuttles a year, don't charge. If you plan to charge, get the pro insurance.
No, I'll charge and take my chances.
No, I'll charge and take my chances.
maybe you could get some kind of disclaimer form for your riders to sign to protect yourself
You are very kind. Best of luck.
Patrickjd9
05-28-2008, 20:18
Read skyline's post. Someone sues, the investigators come out. If you are doing a dozen shuttles a year, don't charge. If you plan to charge, get the pro insurance. Any other approach is an accident waiting to happen.
Have to agree. I was a passenger in a rented van that was in an accident in Utah on a backpacking trip about 15 years ago.
The insurance company deposed everybody in the van trying to prove that it was a commercially guided trip to get out of paying for a seriously injured passenger in the other vehicle.
Fortunately, our group had been on multiple trips together and had its story straight!
Lone Wolf
05-28-2008, 20:41
No, I'll charge and take my chances.
yeah, no ****
maybe you could get some kind of disclaimer form for your riders to sign to protect yourself
You are very kind. Best of luck.
There are lots of people that shuttle without the pro insurance, with savings being past on to the hiker. It could happen but I'm confident on my driving skills, it's not likely I'll be the cause of an accident. Then, of course, I like to keep myself claim free. Being mobile and having little tangible wealth has it's benefits.
Lone Wolf
05-28-2008, 20:48
I shuttle for free
that's dumb
Being mobile and having little tangible wealth has it's benefits.Freedom is just another word for nothin' left to lose.
There are lots of people that shuttle without the pro insurance, with savings being past on to the hiker. It could happen but I'm confident on my driving skills, it's not likely I'll be the cause of an accident.
I am sure. And I am sure you will be fine.
I have taken a shuttle ride or two where I was sure the owner didn't have the pro insurance. I just think people should know the risks and make their own decisions.
that's dumb
LOL. According to you, everything I say or do is dumb. Dumb and Dumber. :)
Lone Wolf
05-28-2008, 21:01
LOL. According to you, everything I say or do is dumb. Dumb and Dumber. :)
why would you give free shuttles? starstruck, kiss ass, rich?
why would you give free shuttles? starstruck, kiss ass, rich?
Never thought about it actually. But then I don't advertise either. Just pm someone who I read is nearing or offer a ride when I am out there. No biggee.
Bulldawg
05-28-2008, 21:20
Is WhiteBlaze still a hiking info forum or is it now a "I'm right and you're wrong" forum?
Is WhiteBlaze still a hiking info forum or is it now a "I'm right and you're wrong" forum?
It is a hiking info forum, but only those with thousands of miles are right. :rolleyes:
Lone Wolf
05-28-2008, 21:24
It is a hiking info forum, but only those with thousands of miles are right. :rolleyes:
as long as you understand that
as long as you understand that
Yeah. Since I am never right about anything or helpful to anyone, I guess I should just go. :rolleyes:
Yeah. Since I am never right about anything or helpful to anyone, I guess I should just go. :rolleyes:
When you're in a hole, it's best to stop digging.
Here's a shuttle gone awry. ;)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080528/us_nm/airlines_delta_suit_dc
Bulldawg
05-28-2008, 22:20
Just to throw in my .02 worth here. I don't think I have already. A few weeks ago I finished my section at Dicks Creek like 6 hours before I thought I would. The wife was coming up to pick me up. I gave the nice folks at Cloud 9 $20 for the 2 mile ride to their place, a shower, and a place to crash (that awesome chair on the hostel's porch) for 5 hours. I never thought twice about giving them $20 even though they didn't want that much. I was tickled to have somewhere better than a parking area to hang out for 5 or 6 hours.
What plantiffs? Few, if any has been involved in a accident doing an AT shuttle. Why pay an extra $2500 per year? Normal insurance should cover a possible accident, especially if you're only doing a dozen shuttles a year.
Our luck can't continue forever, but I agree with you Sly that as a risk group, AT shuttlers are pretty safe bets. When I started researching this last year, I tried to get the insurance companies I contacted that write this kind of insurance to consider us in a different class than urban taxicabs. We (AT shuttlers) don't do their kind of volume, don't travel in high-crime neighborhoods for the most part, and usually have pretty upstanding clients as passengers. Nobody was impressed with my POV. It's one-size-fits-all.
There are lots of people that shuttle without the pro insurance, with savings being past on to the hiker. It could happen but I'm confident on my driving skills, it's not likely I'll be the cause of an accident. Then, of course, I like to keep myself claim free. Being mobile and having little tangible wealth has it's benefits.
You may be a person, not having many assets, who could probably do without the commercial insurance. You're what some attorneys call "judgement proof."
That's you. If the unthinkable did happen, I'd feel sorry for your passengers or passengers/drivers in other vehicle(s) who would not be able to collect from your insurer to get their medical bills paid.
If you had a choice to pay $25 without insurance or $50 with, to take a shuttle, which would you do? It nice to have choices.
If the unthinkable did happen, I'd feel sorry for your passengers or passengers/drivers in other vehicle(s) who would not be able to collect from your insurer to get their medical bills paid.
Cookerhiker
05-29-2008, 08:58
Our luck can't continue forever, but I agree with you Sly that as a risk group, AT shuttlers are pretty safe bets. When I started researching this last year, I tried to get the insurance companies I contacted that write this kind of insurance to consider us in a different class than urban taxicabs. We (AT shuttlers) don't do their kind of volume, don't travel in high-crime neighborhoods for the most part, and usually have pretty upstanding clients as passengers. Nobody was impressed with my POV. It's one-size-fits-all.
That's discouraging Skyline - it looks like the market is failing here. Now if all shuttlers and would-be shuttlers organized and approached insurance companies collectively, I wonder if they'd be more open-minded (and see the profit possibilities).
If you had a choice to pay $25 without insurance or $50 with, to take a shuttle, which would you do? It nice to have choices.
There are more considerations than price, but I agree it's nice to have choices.
Actually, these days, it's nice to just have someone in each region willing to do shuttles under current conditions. In the area I live, several have dropped out because they can't qualify for the NPS permits, gas prices, and one in particular just got burned out dealing with a few hikers who were too demanding.
That's discouraging Skyline - it looks like the market is failing here. Now if all shuttlers and would-be shuttlers organized and approached insurance companies collectively, I wonder if they'd be more open-minded (and see the profit possibilities).
Compared to their other markets (taxis, limos, bus companies, tour operators) even if all of us got together we'd be miniscule. But if someone wanted to organize, we'd join the effort and give it our best shot.
Alligator
05-29-2008, 10:08
Our luck can't continue forever, but I agree with you Sly that as a risk group, AT shuttlers are pretty safe bets. When I started researching this last year, I tried to get the insurance companies I contacted that write this kind of insurance to consider us in a different class than urban taxicabs. We (AT shuttlers) don't do their kind of volume, don't travel in high-crime neighborhoods for the most part, and usually have pretty upstanding clients as passengers. Nobody was impressed with my POV. It's one-size-fits-all.OTOH shuttlers drive hazardous roads: winding, steep, and less maintained. Rural rates do tend to be lower in my experience though.
Gray Blazer
05-29-2008, 10:53
No insurance? Only charge people if you arrive safely. No charge if you happen to get in an acident. When you arrive safely, charge them to get out of your car and hope they don't fall on their face when they do get out.
No insurance? Only charge people if you arrive safely. No charge if you happen to get in an acident. When you arrive safely, charge them to get out of your car and hope they don't fall on their face when they do get out.
LOL. Sounds like the driver will need those automatic locks to keep them inside 'til they pay. :D
Seriously, you should talk to a personal injury attorney and/or an insurance company investigator to see how they would handle the fallout from an accident that occurred under this scenario.
Gray Blazer
05-29-2008, 12:44
LOL. Sounds like the driver will need those automatic locks to keep them inside 'til they pay. :D
Seriously, you should talk to a personal injury attorney and/or an insurance company investigator to see how they would handle the fallout from an accident that occurred under this scenario.
You got the joke.:D
Seriously, I'm not charging anyone for a shuttle. I don't want to get sued and I don't want to end up like Al Capone (for not paying income taxes (for shuttles)).
Barbarosa
05-30-2008, 16:00
After sectioning Duncannon to Harpers Ferry a couple of weeks ago, my sense of current FMV of shuttle services is about $1.50 per mile one way. I paid $175 for a 125 mile shuttle from a reliable provider.
After sectioning Duncannon to Harpers Ferry a couple of weeks ago, my sense of current FMV of shuttle services is about $1.50 per mile one way. I paid $175 for a 125 mile shuttle from a reliable provider.
Terrain and predictable traffic congestion would play a part in FMV too. Much of that shuttle can be done on an interstate that does not usually have traffic backup delays. Some shuttlers add $$$ for the negatives and subtract $$$ for the positives.
I know from the SNP area, we charge a lot more to go into Dulles or the Vienna Metro station using the traffic hell which is I-66 and/or Rt. 28 than we would to go a comparable distance up and down I-81.
Lone Wolf
05-30-2008, 17:23
After sectioning Duncannon to Harpers Ferry a couple of weeks ago, my sense of current FMV of shuttle services is about $1.50 per mile one way. I paid $175 for a 125 mile shuttle from a reliable provider.
damn! i do the same shuutle for$100
damn! i do the same shuutle for$100
That's cause you like to live without rules and insurance that would actually cover any claims. 'Course with your rep, I imagine everyone would testify in your favor should something bad happen. ;)
damn! i do the same shuutle for$100
Back in post #98, you wrote: "i guess i'll quit helping out hikers then. no more shuttles."
So you're back in business? :banana
Lone Wolf
05-30-2008, 22:44
Back in post #98, you wrote: "i guess i'll quit helping out hikers then. no more shuttles."
So you're back in business? :banana
a prior commitment to shuttle a person to pearisburg next month for that price. after that i quit ;)
Back in post #98, you wrote: "i guess i'll quit helping out hikers then. no more shuttles."
So you're back in business? :banana
What? You believed post #98? puhleeze.
minnesotasmith
05-31-2008, 13:22
That petroleum, thus fuel, thus AT shuttle costs will be going up:
I saw on another site a personal experience by someone in the NE I thought was telling. Most of the heating oil suppliers in his area were not yet allowing locking in HO prices for the next 12 months, which normally they would already be doing. Spot HO prices there were $4.65/gallon. The one that was doing 12-month contracts, was doing them for $6.00/gallon. That price rise would put gasoline and diesel by Spring 2009 at or over $6.00/gallon, too, right in time for financially nailing NOBO thrus but good.
Just got the 08/09 lockin price cap. $4.899 for #2. $5.299 for K1.
Unleaded regular $4.02, Ellsworth, ME.
I don't want to get sued and I don't want to end up like Al Capone (for not paying income taxes (for shuttles)).
Beer and gas money needs to be reported to the IRS? It's not income. ;)
Jack Tarlin
10-01-2008, 13:04
Been awhile, so I thought I'd resurrect this thread.
If anyone wants to read the first post and add their two cents, it might be useful, and if anyone had some interesting (like really great or really horrible) shuttle experiences this past summer, please share them with us. I just re-read this whole thread, and there's some useful, informative stuff here, especially the comments from people who actually shuttle.
I don't have a bad experience to share, but I highly recommend The Shuttle Connection in Lincoln, NH. They are a professional organization, that provides on-time, friendly service and they are very flexible.
Lone Wolf
10-01-2008, 13:11
I don't have a bad experience to share, but I highly recommend The Shuttle Connection in Lincoln, NH. They are a professional organization, that provides on-time, friendly service and they are very flexible.
same as me. i'm the cheapest shuttler in the area
Pedaling Fool
10-01-2008, 13:33
I've been talking with quite a few hikers lately about Trail shuttles and costs.
The prevailing view among most of the hikers I've spoken with is that they think a lot of shuttles and shuttlers are asking too much.
The prevailing view among the shutttlers I've talked to is that these services don't cost enough, especially when we considering the recent escalation of gas costs.
My own opinion is that gas costs are indeed getting ridiculous, and there's no reason why services dependent on automobiles shouldn't be affected by this. After all, can anyone think of anything they've bought recently that cost LESS than when they bought it six months or a year ago? Food certainly doesn't cost less. And gas sure doesn't. So why on earth should shuttle costs stay the same as they were a year or two ago?
In short, they shouldn't. (Never mind the fact that shuttle customers don't take into consideration such things as wear and tear on vehicles, insurance costs, the cost of the driver's own time, etc).
Oh, and if one still has quibbles about paying for a shuttle to the Trailhead, there are always at least three alternatives:
*Use your own vehicle, and risk leaving it out in the middle of nowhere
*Stay home
*Put your thumb out and flag down a ride
Any thoughts or opinions on this?
I've also heard people say they think shuttlers are charging too much; I don't see how anyone could blame the shuttlers.
I've talked to some that have done thru's in the past (~20+ years ago). Weren't many shuttles back then, and hitch-hiking wasn't so easy, many considered hikers as hippy-trash and readily showed their contempt.
Just another example of how we (as a community) have changed and to some extent are spoiled. Then you got the hikers that give the rest of us a bad name, yes a minority, but a consistent minority, doesn't take many to tarnish the whole bunch; just another factor that affect our services, I'd raise prices just for that inconvience.
trailmomma4
10-01-2008, 13:35
I had a pretty bad experience. This past summer I planned to do a small weekend section with my sons. I e-mailed the shuttle and made the arrangements a week and a half in advance. The next day as we were discussing our itenerary, our plans changed and we would not need a shuttle. I e-mailed immediately and canceled the shuttle and recieved what I would consider a nasty reply. He stated that "people" like me were the reason he was going to demand a deposit from now on. I thought that I had given enough notice for the cancelation. Apparently not.
I had a shuttler stand me up in Slatington, PA last summer. So I walked along the river from Slatington to the trailhead. No biggie.
dessertrat
10-01-2008, 15:12
With the price of gas lately, it's understandable that they are charging quite a bit more. Most of them are still getting far less than taxi drivers.
And hey, now that I have to put off my hike, I may call Lone Wolf to see if he'll get back in business, I'm thinking about hiking through Grayson Highlands area in November when the leg gets better.
I used a shuttle from Fontana to Springer this past May. The shuttle operator was very prompt, arrived within moments of the arranged time. Made a stop for me to get coffee and mail some items, delivered me to Amicalola ahead of schedule. The vehicle was in decent shape, no worry there, he was pleasant and informative about the area. It took his entire day by the time he drove home. His charge was $150.00. Very reasonable, I added a $25 tip and felt grateful for the excellent service and peace of mind knowing my vehicle was safely waiting for me at Fontana.
CherrypieScout
10-01-2008, 18:00
I am happy with anything $1.00 to $1.50 per mile. I like to use local people who can fill me in on details and stories about the secion I am hiking. I think it is fair. Gas, car use, their time, etc.
I am happy with anything $1.00 to $1.50 per mile. I like to use local people who can fill me in on details and stories about the secion I am hiking. I think it is fair. Gas, car use, their time, etc.
I have yet to meet a shuttle service that knows more about the section I have mapped out than I do, mostly because it is a vague recollection at best and others simply don't hike. But then I have never been shuttled by LW.
Rockhound
10-02-2008, 15:52
simple rule of thumb. figure $1.50 per mile is a bargain $2.00 is more than fair. You dont want to pay? then hitch (good luck) or walk there
Rockhound
10-02-2008, 15:56
same as me. i'm the cheapest shuttler in the area
do you charge extra for the wonderful company?
I had a pretty bad experience. This past summer I planned to do a small weekend section with my sons. I e-mailed the shuttle and made the arrangements a week and a half in advance. The next day as we were discussing our itenerary, our plans changed and we would not need a shuttle. I e-mailed immediately and canceled the shuttle and recieved what I would consider a nasty reply. He stated that "people" like me were the reason he was going to demand a deposit from now on. I thought that I had given enough notice for the cancelation. Apparently not.
I don't think that shuttler is typical of most of the rest. Most shuttle providers would be grateful for a phone call cancelling a reservation, especially that far in advance. Some hikers just don't bother, and are no-shows.
Jack Tarlin
10-02-2008, 19:54
In my experience, and from what I've seen and heard, a shuttler is MUCH more likely to be left hanging by a hiker than the other way around. Every single shuttler I know can tell you all sorts of horror stories about people never showing up. Can every hiker that's ever relied on a shuttler say similar things about the reliabilty of their drivers?
Um, no, they can't and they don't.
Slo-go'en
10-02-2008, 20:16
A few weeks ago, I did about a 50 mile chunk of the Maine AT as a slack pack (the lady I was hiking with insisted!) out of the Pine Ellies B+B in Andover ME. The service was fantastic. Dave or Ken were always early and waiting for us to finish our section, plus he was willing to get up at 6 AM so we could be on the trail early. I don't know how much it cost, as I simply said "tell me what my half comes to and I'll pay it". It wasn't cheap, but worth it not having to carry a full pack and come back to a warm, dry bed every night.
Later in Rangley, I decided to get off the trail and we were at the Gull pond lodge hostle. I was able to get a ride from there back to my front door in Randolph, NH. Again, not cheap, $140.00, 75 cents a mile, so I guess it was a bargin. It beat having to hitch hike, which could have taken 2 days! Plus, one of the other hikers there needed to get back to Gorham to replace a water blater, so I told him to come along for the ride, since I was paying anyway. He did insist on giving me 20 bucks though.
Ron Haven
10-02-2008, 21:28
I have yet to meet a shuttle service that knows more about the section I have mapped out than I do, mostly because it is a vague recollection at best and others simply don't hike. But then I have never been shuttled by LW.Tin Man if you are in my section give me a chance.:sun
Tin Man if you are in my section give me a chance.:sun
No question!
LIhikers
10-02-2008, 22:15
I guess I'm the lucky one, I've never had a really bad experience with a shuttler. There have been some glitches, but in the end things have always worked out on the positive side.
In my experience, and from what I've seen and heard, a shuttler is MUCH more likely to be left hanging by a hiker than the other way around. Every single shuttler I know can tell you all sorts of horror stories about people never showing up. Can every hiker that's ever relied on a shuttler say similar things about the reliabilty of their drivers?
Um, no, they can't and they don't.
The few shuttle providers who prove to be unreliable or bash hikers verbally don't stick around long. Thankfully, there aren't many.
Hikers not calling to cancel are not an everyday event, but they far outnumber the bad shuttle providers. A provider can almost eliminate these events—at least with section hikers—if they try to get the client to do the shuittle at the beginning of a hike, and also insist that the client call a couple hours before the scheduled meet time to report his or her progress.
What really galls me is hikers that call from a road crossing for a shuttle they want right that minute, but while waiting for the driver they've just arranged to pick them up, continue to hitch-hike. Sometimes successfully.
rambunny
10-03-2008, 07:00
Just a view from the other side-at 1.50 a mile (even going by trail miles) it is still angel work when you consider the extra insurance for transporting people-the repairs from going to forest service rutted roads, and (long boring story)i had 3 hikers in Maine forget to pay a weeks worth of shuttling in MAINE!!! I want to provide shuttle service here at Happy Hiker Hollow but am discouraged when someone is looking at a map where it looks easy to get to blah blah when actually it's over a Mt. on gravel and snival about the cost.Peace and transportation!
What really galls me is hikers that call from a road crossing for a shuttle they want right that minute, but while waiting for the driver they've just arranged to pick them up, continue to hitch-hike. Sometimes successfully.
If they have a cellphone, they can Paypal you the money. ;)
https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/cps/mobile/MobileWaysToUse-outside
If they have a cellphone, they can Paypal you the money. ;)
https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/cps/mobile/MobileWaysToUse-outside
That could be a great option. Actually, by the start of next season Rodney hopes to be able to accept Visa/MC/Discover. That will be a big game-changer.
middle to middle
10-03-2008, 14:44
I have always been happy to pay for a ride. Several times hitchhiking I had to endure a lecture from a driver that If I was out for a "walk" why would I hitch ? The fact that this was a lateral service tangent trip did not seem to matter to them. However the conversation still rings in my ears. You either ride and listen to your host or get out. The people who go out of their way to give you a ride are very nice and I am happy to help defray expenses at least. In hindsight I can't thank them enough. Even the lecturers.
tom
Just a view from the other side-at 1.50 a mile (even going by trail miles) it is still angel work when you consider the extra insurance for transporting people-the repairs from going to forest service rutted roads, and (long boring story)i had 3 hikers in Maine forget to pay a weeks worth of shuttling in MAINE!!! I want to provide shuttle service here at Happy Hiker Hollow but am discouraged when someone is looking at a map where it looks easy to get to blah blah when actually it's over a Mt. on gravel and snival about the cost.Peace and transportation!
Just tell them the truth. It's not about the number of miles they're hiking. It's about the number of miles you must drive to provide the shuttle. If some of those miles are on unimproved mountain roads, then it will cause more wear-and-tear and take more of your time because you have to drive slowly. You deserve to be compensated.
Most of the section hikers who patronize shuttle services seem to understand these facts. Some thru-hikers do, too, but others seem not to comprehend or care.
Later in Rangley, I decided to get off the trail and we were at the Gull pond lodge hostle. I was able to get a ride from there back to my front door in Randolph, NH. Again, not cheap, $140.00, 75 cents a mile, so I guess it was a bargin. It beat having to hitch hike, which could have taken 2 days! Plus, one of the other hikers there needed to get back to Gorham to replace a water blater, so I told him to come along for the ride, since I was paying anyway. He did insist on giving me 20 bucks though.
By Google Maps, that's 157+ miles. At $140, that's about 89 cents per mile on a round trip basis (the miles he must drive to provide the shuttle). At that rate, he's probably just barely covering his many costs, not making a profit.
Flush2wice
10-04-2008, 01:38
In my experience, and from what I've seen and heard, a shuttler is MUCH more likely to be left hanging by a hiker than the other way around. Every single shuttler I know can tell you all sorts of horror stories about people never showing up. Can every hiker that's ever relied on a shuttler say similar things about the reliabilty of their drivers?
Um, no, they can't and they don't.
And that's why any shuttler worth a damn should say "thank you very much!" to any hiker who bothers to call ahead of time to cancel a shuttle.
Lone Wolf
10-04-2008, 02:17
i do drive cheap for certain people. namely section hikers. they have great attitudes and aren't tight asses like thru-hikers.
Admit it, Lone Wolf. You often do the same for thru hikers, don't you?
Weary
rarely......
i'll only shuttle thru-hikers if it's an emergency. i will not slackpack them anymore. they don't want to pay
True story of a moral dilemma involving a shuttle. Happy ending, but it was touch-and-go. It went like this.
As I approached the end of last year's section, I knew I'd need a shuttle off the trail. It was a very remote trailhead in southern Virginia. (Rte. 601, south of Kelly's Knob.) I'd been on the trail for almost six weeks and yeah, I was ready to get back home.
I made contact with a shuttler (from the ATC list) from my cell phone at the Rte. 311 trailhead, three days ahead of time. I told him where I wanted to be picked up, and when. I gave myself plenty of time to get there. It wasn't a great connection. Through the static, it sounded like I was talking to an elderly fellow, and after completing the call, there was some doubt in my mind whether he'd understood all the details. He sounded incredulous at the location. No doubt, it was a weird place for a pickup. Rte. 601 was where my attempted thru hike in 1990 had ended. But nobody else could know or understand all that.
I called again the following day, and didn't get through, so I left a voice message, repeating the details (time and place.) On Sinking Creek Mountain, I called again. We spoke for about fifteen seconds before the line went dead. On the day of pickup, I called mid-morning, left another message, saying I'd probably arrive a couple hours early.
I get to Rte. 601 at around 1 PM, at which moment I became a "2000 Miler" at long last. The original pickup time (from the first few calls) had been 5 PM. If he got that morning's call, he might arrive as early as 3 PM. Or if everything went wrong, he might not arrive at all.
It was a beautiful day, but the trailhead was desolate. There was a blue pickup truck parked there, belonging almost certainly two a couple of hikers I'd met while coming down off Kelly Knob. (They were walking uphill, with a dog, and no packs.) Over the next two hours not a single vehicle came by. I knew that it was at least a dozen miles to even the remotest civilization, at least in the direction I needed to go.
I wondered all that time if my shuttler would show, and when? Had he understood my directions? I was going stir crazy... how many hours would I wait? I wanted to celebrate. I wanted to be home. There was no one to talk to. No question I'd have waited 'till 5 PM, if I could be certain that he'd show. But there was no way to be certain. If he didn't show by 5, I'd be stuck in the woods for another night. The very thought was unbearable.
I rolled and smoked a few cigarettes, sitting, strolling around, and staring at the blue pickup truck. I was pretty sure I could yogi a ride a off the mountain. The hikers belonging to the truck returned, a few minutes before 3 PM. I explained my situation. Sure thing. They were going my way, and offered a lift.
What to do? What to do? Get my butt off the mountain, now, or do the right thing, and wait for the shuttler? I was truly torn.
I was just about to throw my pack in the back of the truck when we heard the sound of an approaching car. It was my shuttle guy. I just about hugged him. He took me to Roanoke. It was a long drive. He didn't ask for money. I tried to hand him $100. He tried to refuse. I said, "Give it to your trail club." He took it. His name is Maurice Turner, and he's on the ATC list of shuttlers (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/ATshuttleWEB_Aug_7_08.pdf). He's a trail maintainer for RATC, and he's a real gentleman. To this day, I still feel guilty about having almost stood him up.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com/cpg143/albums/userpics/10001/normal_IMG_0915_ann.jpg
Lone Wolf
10-04-2008, 07:23
being in the woods that long obviously didn't teach you any patience
middle to middle
10-05-2008, 13:33
Life sucks then you die. We go to the trail to enjoy the woods, all the rest you just have to grin and bare it.
I never had a problem with a shuttle. All have done a great job & I appreciated the ride, trail reports, & stories.
Many thanks to Wes Wisson, Joyce Woodward, Ron Haven, Curtis Owen, & Lone Wolf.
Our AT section shuttle service was cheap in my opinion. We would have paid more so we just tipped more. Plus we parked our car free for a week. Can't beat that. There are no shuttles here in the midwest. We have to shuttle cars back and forth on some trails and sometimes doing that takes all our Friday afternoon or evening. And the vehicle is left at some really remote spot that makes "Deliverance" look urban. We have have some fun Friday nights in Arkansas doing our shuttle cars routine. Hell Cemetery, Police Checkpoint looking for escaped killers, etc. Then at the end of the hike, someone has to drive someone else back to the car at the start. That can take up to two hours. That just sucks after a weekend hike on Sunday night. We thought the shuttle was a total luxury.
The Mechanical Man
10-06-2008, 01:52
i'll only shuttle thru-hikers if it's an emergency. i will not slackpack them anymore. they don't want to pay
I have to respectfully disagree with you, because I just did a slackpack for 2 Thru-Hiking Southbounders, that did not have a problem with cash.
I have a picture of them with money in hand, but I am not allowed to attach the picture here for some reason.
So if you want to see it, just send me a pm, or email.
It's the Northbounders that always seem to run out of money every year in your area, that is getting under your skin perhaps?
I ALWAYS give EVERY hiker an equal opportunity. ;)
True story of a moral dilemma involving a shuttle. Happy ending, but it was touch-and-go. It went like this.......
Great story, happy ending.
Situations like this are why I strongly recommend hikers get their shuttle at the beginning of a hike. Meet the shuttle provider where you want to park, get shuttled to the start point of your hike, then walk at your own pace back to your vehicle without the stress of meeting someone at a predesignated time, or wondering if the driver will show up.
It works out better that way if you can do it, but there are odd situations where you just can't park at a certain location, or for other reasons you and the shuttler can't work out the logistics, and you have no choice but to get your shuttle at hike's end.