Nobo Early Start Gear

[Chance09]

So the perks of an early start are definitely appealing. I'm thinking mid Feb.
Besides a warm liner for my 35 degree sleeping bag, what are some other suggestions for gear. I'm obviously going to need warmer clothing so i guess what i'm looking for is more specific lightweight suggestions. Right now my pack weight before food and water is about 16 pds so a little extra weight shouldn't hurt too much.

Thanks a lot for the help.

[MOWGLI]

So the perks of an early start are definitely appealing. I'm thinking mid Feb.
Besides a warm liner for my 35 degree sleeping bag, what are some other suggestions for gear. I'm obviously going to need warmer clothing so i guess what i'm looking for is more specific lightweight suggestions. Right now my pack weight before food and water is about 16 pds so a little extra weight shouldn't hurt too much.

Thanks a lot for the help.

35 degree bag is too lite for a February start. You could easily get single digits in the mountains, and a liner will only add perhaps 10 degrees at best.

[The Solemates]

i wouldnt dare take a 35 deg bag with a liner starting mid feb.

we started feb 1 and i took a 5 degree bag. we had over a handful of nights that it got below 0.

[Chance09]

fair enough, so besides a warmer bag, any suggestions?

[MOWGLI]

fair enough, so besides a warmer bag, any suggestions?

Change the sig under your name to read; See you at Springer. Winter '09. ;)

Seriously, it's hard to answer your question without seeing a gear list. What kind of boots will you be wearing? Just curious.

[Chance09]

Change the sig under your name to read; See you at Springer. Winter '09. ;)

Haha good point.

Ummm ya completely undecided about boots, i'm still researching and looking at boots and am very open to suggestions. Something sturdy thats not incredibly heavyt would be nice. I've got horrible ankles from years of rolling them playing soccer. I'm perfectly capable of rolling my ankle walking on a completely flat surface so I usually wear boots with ankle support and frequently hike with a class one brace in my pack in case i need it.

[Chance09]

And i have a gear list but it's in excel, not sure how to upload that.

I could email it tho.

[MOWGLI]

And i have a gear list but it's in excel, not sure how to upload that.

I could email it tho.

I'm no gear head, but there are all kinds of experienced folks who love looking at gear lists here who would offer you opinions.

Try copying and pasting. You may have to reformat a bit.

[MOWGLI]

I've got horrible ankles from years of rolling them playing soccer. I'm perfectly capable of rolling my ankle walking on a completely flat surface so I usually wear boots with ankle support and frequently hike with a class one brace in my pack in case i need it.

Two words. Trekking poles.

[Chance09]

This copied surprisingly well. This is what i have for a gear list so far. I'm still very undecided on most of the clothing and footwear.

Packed Stuff
Item // Category // Priority // Quantity // Weight (oz.)
Fuel Food, Storage, and Prep High 3 10.50
Jetboil Utensils Food, Storage, and Prep High 1 1.30
Lexan Plastic Mug Food, Storage, and Prep High 1 2.70
Strong Ziplock Bags Food, Storage, and Prep High 3 1.00
Plastic Tea Strainer Food, Storage, and Prep High 1 1.00
Tea Food, Storage, and Prep** High N/A N/A
Jetboil 1.5L Cooking Pot w/pot holder/stabilizer Food, Storage, and Prep** High 1 19.00
Food Food, Storage, and Prep High N/A N/A
Trash Food, Storage, and Prep High 1 2.00
Stuff Sack Food, Storage, and Prep High 2 1.00
Rope 45 + feet Food, Storage, and Prep High 1 5.00
Green Tobasco Sauce Food, Storage, and Prep Low 1 1.50
Food Spices and flavoring Food, Storage, and Prep Low 5.00
Trash Dry Sack (sea to summit) 10L Trash Low 3.5
Jetboil Maitenence Kit Food, Storage, and Prep Low 1 0.25

Water Water High N/A N/A
Amigo Pro Gravity Filter Water High 1 7.50
Hydration System Water High 1 3.00
Katadyn Micropur Tablets - 30 Pack Water High 1 0.70

HighLite western mountaineering bag +35 Sleep and Shelter High 1 16.00
Vargo Outdoor Titanium Stakes - 6 Pack Sleep and Shelter High 1 1.68
NightLight™ Sleeping Pad (3/4 Length) Sleep and Shelter High 1 8.00
Contrail by Tarptent Sleep and Shelter High 1 24.50
Groundsheet Sleep and Shelter Med 1 3.00
Sleeping Bag Liner (cold)* Sleep and Shelter Med 1 8.10

Socks Packed Clothing High 3 6.00
Long Underwear Packed Clothing High 1 8.50
Shortsleeve Shirt Packed Clothing High 1 6.10
handkercheifs Packed Clothing High 2 1.00
Ultralite Poncho/Shelter w/pack cover by Equinox Packed Clothing High 1 7.00
REI Mountain Gaiters Packed Clothing Low 1 3.00
Beanie (cold) Packed Clothing Med 1 2.00
Gloves (cold)* Packed Clothing Med 1 1.00
Crocs Packed Clothing Med 1 15.00

MSR PackTowl UltraLite Towel - Medium Sanitation - personal High 1 1.00
Pocket Soap (sea to summit) Sanitation - personal Low 1 0.5
Tooth Brush (sawed down) Sanitation - personal High 1 1.00
Toothpaste (Mini) Sanitation - personal High 1 1.00
Foot Powder Sanitation - personal High 1 1.00
The Sea to Summit iPOOd! (trowel) Sanitation - personal Low 1 3.50
Dental Floss Sanitation - personal High 1 1.00
Hand Sanitizer

Mariposa Plus by Gossamer Gear Hiking Pack 1st 1 19.30

Survival Kit Survival High 1 5.00
"Light & Dry LD1" by Atwater Carey Survival High 1 4.00
Leatherman Wave Survival High 1 8.50
Lighter Survival Med 1 0.50
Matches Survival Low 1 0.20

Suunto A-10 Compass Survival High 1 0.95

Vitamins - One a days Miscelaneous High 15 1.50
Pencil Miscelaneous High 1 0.50
Impulse by Princton Tec Lighting High 1 0.5
REI Weatherproof Journal Miscelaneous High 1 3.50
Gizmo by Black Diamond Lighting High 1 1.60
extra batteries Miscelaneous High 2 2.00
Trash Bags - Heavy Duty Miscelaneous High 5 1.00
REI Pocket-Size Weatherproof Journal Miscelaneous Low 1 2.00


Money and Pouch Finances High N/A 0.50
Credit Card Finances High 1 0.50

Total oz. 234.88
Total pds. 14.68

What i'll be Wearing/Carrying
Boots Clothing High 1 37.00
Socks Clothing High 1 2.00
Zip off Kuhl Pant/Shorts Clothing High 1 8.00
CoolMax Buff Wear Clothing Low 2.00
Shortsleeve Shirt Clothing High 1 6.10
Komperdell Guide Titanal Walking Poles Trecking Poles High 1 10.00
rubber tips Trecking Poles 1.00

For the above
Weight Oz. 68.60
Weight Pds. 4.2875

I'm going to do the unintelligent thing and most likely take my camera with me as well. It's a digital SLR and not the lightest thing in the world, but i want it along for the quality and pictures, so add a pound and a half to this. If you want. I may wait til i'm a few weeks in and in a little better shape before i start carrying it.

[bigcranky]

Recommended for an early Feb start:

A very warm bag -- 5F or so -- and a good, full-length sleeping pad.

A puffy jacket, down or synthetic fill. Make this a good, mid-weight jacket, not one of the 7-oz jackets. This is part of the 4-Layer System (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=487795&postcount=16).

A lightweight fleece hat for hiking, and a heavier fleece hat or balaclava for sleeping. Same with gloves or mittens -- need something dry for camp/sleep.

I like to keep a set of sleeping clothes absolutely dry in my pack -- Powerstretch tights, a microfleece zip-tee, and wool socks.

Rain gear, shell and pants, possibly waterproof overmitts as well. I like a poncho-tarp as rain gear, too, but not in winter.

I take down booties in December and January, but for a thru-hike starting in February they may be overkill.

The Contrail is fine, just be aware of where you pitch it, as it's not very wind-resistant. You can carry a snow stake rather than the trowel and save some weight (and use it as a tent stake in the snow, if needed). Your multi-tool is probably overkill, as is your survival pack. Be aware that your hydration bladder drinking tube will freeze on occasion, even with the little neoprene insulator. Finally, I'm not sure a Mariposa Plus has enough capacity for a winter hike, but I could be wrong.

[bigcranky]

I'm going to do the unintelligent thing and most likely take my camera with me as well. It's a digital SLR and not the lightest thing in the world, but i want it along for the quality and pictures, so add a pound and a half to this. If you want. I may wait til i'm a few weeks in and in a little better shape before i start carrying it.


Check the owner's manual about operating and non-operating temperatures for your camera. The lighter consumer D-SLR's aren't really made for winter shooting outdoors. Waiting a few weeks or a month might help with that, too.

[minnesotasmith]

So the perks of an early start are definitely appealing. I'm thinking mid Feb.
Besides a warm liner for my 35 degree sleeping bag, what are some other suggestions for gear. I'm obviously going to need warmer clothing so i guess what i'm looking for is more specific lightweight suggestions. Right now my pack weight before food and water is about 16 pds so a little extra weight shouldn't hurt too much.

Thanks a lot for the help.
==========================================
All of which I was glad I brought:

1 pair Sealskin socks
2 thin knit caps
Fleece balaclava (get a large, good-quality one; the small ones are lousy)
0-degree synthetic bag
2 thin Patagonia thermal underwear tops
2 thin Patagonia thermal underwear bottoms
Glove liners
Sock liners
Midweight fleece gloves
Waterproof large hat

Didn't bring, and wished at times I did:

Insulated booties
Fleece turtleneck
Neoprene facemask skiiers wear
Micro wire crampons fitting diagonally over trail runners (about 6 oz. total)

[Mercy]

When its colder, I change my crocs for down booties, and switch when it warms up. But I'm not a thru hiker, so don't mind me!:D

Mercy

[Blissful]

I'm perfectly capable of rolling my ankle walking on a completely flat surface so I usually wear boots with ankle support and frequently hike with a class one brace in my pack in case i need it.

I strongly urge you to work on rehab for your ankle before you do the trail if it's that weak. Won't do much good to plan with gear if you are not physically ready to withstand the trail's rigors - of which there is plenty of that, boots or not.

[mountain squid]

Some observations:

in addition to what has already be mentioned about 35F bag, I don't know how trustworthy temp ratings on liners are
maps
guidebook with town info
something extra to hold water
TP
phone card with important phone #s (if no cell phone)
sun screen (no leaves on trees)
needle for draining blisters
whistle
ear plugs
duct tape

See you on the trail,
mt squid

[minnesotasmith]

Marmot rainshell jacket
rain pants (almost never used, but very handy couple of times)
Puffball jacket

[Chance09]

How long would you wait to switch out a 5 degree bag for a lighter 35 degree bag?
Also instead of a down jacket, how about a lightweight micro fleece with a mtn hardware windstopper jacket as an outer layer? I spent the winter skiing in it on warmer days, around 20 degrees, with the fleece under it and never got cold as long as i was moving.

[bigcranky]

How long would you wait to switch out a 5 degree bag for a lighter 35 degree bag?
Also instead of a down jacket, how about a lightweight micro fleece with a mtn hardware windstopper jacket as an outer layer? I spent the winter skiing in it on warmer days, around 20 degrees, with the fleece under it and never got cold as long as i was moving.

After Mount Rogers in Virginia. Maybe after Pearisburg or Daleville depending on how fast you hike.

I like Windstopper for dayhikes and around town, but I find it's too warm to hike in and not warm enough when I stop, plus it's very heavy and bulky for the insulation values. Your mileage may vary, of course, but I found I needed much heavier clothing for downhill skiing than for hiking. (The Windstopper jacket would be great for that.)

Strictly from a warmth to weight/bulk ratio, down or synthetic puffy jackets win out for winter hiking.

[hammock engineer]

Too me the list looks complete. Some things I wouldn't carry or need, but everything is covered.

I am no winter expert, I just like to be out in the cold.

It's hard to beat a nice warm down jacket for weight and compactness. I don't hike in mine, but it goes on at every break and when I'm done.

Shell mittens and liners are a must for me. It's all fun and games until the hands are cold.

Foot wise I am fine in my trail runners and smartwool socks to a certain point. After that I use the sealskins. Not warm if you are standing around, but great after you get going. Justt remember to air out your feet a lot.

Might be worth looking at camp shoes. Your hiking boots will be wet more than they are not. At the end of the day dry socks and feet are the best.

In temps below 20-ish or in cold and wind I hike in my complete raingear. It would be worth looking at switching from a poucho to full rain gear. I wear my jacket all the time for warmth.

Make sure there is enough room in your bag for everything you are going to need to sleep with at night. Everything will freeze: boots, fuel canister (won't freeze but works better warm), water, anything wet.

Also certain foods freeze solid and are better left out. Carmel is the worst.

I use a dual core Big Agnus pad on the ground with a closed cell foam pad for warmth underneath. I use a 20 degree pad with my 0 degree quilt inside. Toasty warm on cold nights.

Don't forget you will be losing body fat and getting wicked cold. What keeps you warm now will not later on.

Also morning are wicked cold and suck to pack up in.

Don't be afraid to error with caution and start with a little more than you need. I would keep it for a week or 2 during a cold snap and see what you use or don't use. To me it's easier to mail the right gear home you don't need than find the right thing on the trail.

[Johnny Swank]

I'll be contrarian here, and suggest that there are far fewer benefits to starting early then there are downfalls. At a minimum, you're going to have to get a warmer sleeping setup, cause a 35 degree bag isn't going to come close to cutting it in Feb. Storms are more likely, and will probably be longer lasting and harsher as well.

I'd be willing to be the dropout rate is higher among early starters too, as you have to carry more weight just to stay warm (I'm going to dive into that part of the date from a recent thru-hiker survey soon, but this is just conjecture right now). More likely to be walking on frozen trails... I know plenty of folks that blew through unexpected $$$ sitting in motel rooms waiting out exceptionally crappy weather (including myself on my SOBO hike).

In short, I'd say start April 1 at the earliest. I like to camp in cold weather, but it's not that much fun to try and make real miles everyday in.

[The Solemates]

fair enough, so besides a warmer bag, any suggestions?

yea, do some extended winter hiking trips before setting out on a thru-hike. thats probably the smartest thing you can do. if you've never done it before, its hard to know what you are in for.

[Frosty]

Also instead of a down jacket, how about a lightweight micro fleece with a mtn hardware windstopper jacket as an outer layer? I spent the winter skiing in it on warmer days, around 20 degrees, with the fleece under it and never got cold as long as i was moving.Yeah, as long as you were moving. Then you went into a building or car to get warm.

The thing is, you won't be moving for about 15 hours a day, and it will be a lot colder than 20* Until you spent a night out in cold weather, it is hard to understand the numbingness of the cold and how hard it is to stay warm.

Best thing to do is to head up into the mountains this December or January. Make sure it is a night under 10*

Camp out no more than a mile from your car. Get into the woods before noon. Stay there past noon of the following day. Ask yourself how you would feel about staying another night.

Then you will know if your gear is adequate or not.

Big Cranky had great advice above.

For me, from your list, I would lose the hydration system. Not much good in the winter. Bite valves and tubes freeze solid. You can fill your pot with water at night so you can melt it with your stove, but you really can't thaw out a hydration system outdoors.

If I read it that you were bringing one pair of gloves weighing one ounce, use those for sleeping in, and get two pair of good gloves. One that is water proof and one good enough that you can put frozen hands into (like after you eat or do anything requiring bare hands) and your hands will warm up in them.

Someone mentioned a full pad. Very important as the ground will suck heat away from you fast.

I wouldn't trade out a 35* bag until mid-July and would get rid of it before September or before Glencliff, whichever comes first.

But mostly, worry less about your 16 pound pack, and more about how you will keep warm and dry. Winter hiking is exhilarating, but only if you have the clothing to keep warm. It sucks being so cold you can't sleep at night.

Nothing beats testing out winter gear in winter conditions.

[The Solemates]

general things you may not have thought about that i wrote to a friend when asked the same question:

"what to expect?" is an odd question. A definition of cold is different for different people. For me, cold is below 10-degrees for successive nights; anything above this temp is reasonably tolerable, and if it is only cold for a night or two, its also tolerable. For me, anything below this approximate cut-off, my answer would be expect it to be cold, and expect to have no escape from it whatsoever. expect to have every waking minute spent trying to stay warm. it was so cold on our thru hike many nights (ie, below 0) that we were either hiking, or we were in our sleeping bag. there was no sitting around fixing dinner and chatting by the campfire. simple chores like getting water and using the bathroom become burdensome. when we stopped hiking, we immediately got in our bags. we cooked, ate, did everything in our sleeping bags.

you have to put water bottles at the foot of your bag so they will not freeze solid, so you will have drinking water. and that's if you find running water to begin with. you may have to melt snow for drinking water. while hiking, you may have to keep water on your body to keep it from freezing as well. you will have to sleep with your stove fuel in the foot of your bag as well. fuel doesnt work well in the cold and you must warm it up first or you will use 3X as much. you will have to sleep with your water filter in your sleeping bag as well, or it will freeze into a solid block and will be useless. Also make sure to get as much water out of it after use as possible. one morning on the AT it took my wife 45 minutes just to get her boots on because they had shrunk from freezing and she couldnt get her foot in them. so, she slept with her boots in her bag as well from then on. your shoes will be solid, non-moldable blocks in the morning otherwise. they may take 1 hour of hiking before they thaw. this is just a few things...but the bottom line is that if your prepared, cold is not a big deal. The coldest I've ever been out camping in (-12 degrees before windchill, probably -30 or so with windchill, for 2 nights) is not considered cold by some...its all about preparation and keeping your "cool"

[Frosty]

I'll be contrarian here, and suggest that there are far fewer benefits to starting early then there are downfalls. At a minimum, you're going to have to get a warmer sleeping setup, cause a 35 degree bag isn't going to come close to cutting it in Feb. Storms are more likely, and will probably be longer lasting and harsher as well.

I'd be willing to be the dropout rate is higher among early starters too, as you have to carry more weight just to stay warm (I'm going to dive into that part of the date from a recent thru-hiker survey soon, but this is just conjecture right now). More likely to be walking on frozen trails... I know plenty of folks that blew through unexpected $$$ sitting in motel rooms waiting out exceptionally crappy weather (including myself on my SOBO hike).

In short, I'd say start April 1 at the earliest. I like to camp in cold weather, but it's not that much fun to try and make real miles everyday in.Winter hiking isn't for everyone, but lots of people do it every year and have fun. All you need is a thirst for adventure, winter gear, and a willingness to be uncomfortable part of the time. No reason that everyone has to start April 1 at the earliest. Not that there is anything wrong with starting April 1. Chance was just asking about help with gear for a Feb start.

[hopefulhiker]

I would go with a 20 degree bag, liner, and long underwear, down sweater of pullover, and still be prepared to be cold on some nights..