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Tennessee Viking
05-30-2008, 03:21
I am not great in herpetology, are these two specimens black racers/rat snakes?

Ape 99
05-30-2008, 05:35
The 1st definitely is, the 2nd is hard to see, but appears to be a dark varient of garter snake, also very thick bodied, may be pregnant (garters give live birth).

shuffle
05-30-2008, 07:12
THe first one is a black rat snake and the second is a garter of the dark variety.

senache
05-30-2008, 13:48
Good thing snakes don't get poison ivy, eh?

trailmomma4
05-30-2008, 13:58
The only thing I know about about snakes comes from the rhyme my son (Big Red) learned in Boy Scouts:
Red on yellow, kill a fellow,
Red on black, friend of Jack

senache
05-31-2008, 11:47
That is to identify a coral snake - as opposed to a Scarlet Kingsnake.

HippieHiker
05-31-2008, 18:16
the first is a rat snake....but i think the second is a corn snake. i had one growing up and the mouth looks dead on. if you found this in georgie it most likely is a corn.

Tennessee Viking
05-31-2008, 21:13
Found them on Pond Mtn leading up to Pond Flats from Laurel Fork Gorge.

Wise Old Owl
01-06-2009, 17:43
Good thing snakes don't get poison ivy, eh?


Yea I saw that too, I didn't want to say anything in case it was his yard!

I agree with Scarlet about the snakes.

emerald
01-06-2009, 18:12
I called this thread to the attention of Herpn.

Herpn
01-06-2009, 23:28
At first glance I thought this was a Black Rat it used to be Elaphe obsoleta but the name in now Eastern Black Rat and is Pantherophis alleghaniensis . BUT the closer I look at it, mostly at the face it looks like a Black Racer or a North American Racer (same thing), Coluber constrictor. If you look at the head the racer has larger more rounded eyes than the Rat. The dead giveaway is the scales a racer has smooth scales and a Rat has Keeled scales, the scales have a keel in them, a raised line in the center or each scale. This photo is unfortunately a bit blurey or not close enough for me to tell. Also if you flip them over the rat would have black and white checkered board pattern going down. The racer has more of a sinister face. Also the Rat is more majestic in is movements where the racer is FAST that's were it get its name. So I am going with racer. If the picture was just a bit more clear it would make for an easier ID.

The second snake is in fact a melanistic (dark phase) of an Eastern Garter or a Common Garter, Thamnophis sirtalis.

I have never personally seen one this dark. Cool pics thanks for sharing. There is some proof now with all the molecular biology research going on that Garters actually poses some venom, nothing that could harm a person though.


Hope this helps, I will take another look at this black snake pic and try to blow it up.

Thanks,
Chuck Annicelli
www.ConnecticutHerpetologist.com (http://www.connecticutherpetologist.com/)

Herpn
01-06-2009, 23:37
At first glance I thought this was a Black Rat it used to be Elaphe obsoleta but the name in now Eastern Black Rat and is Pantherophis alleghaniensis . BUT the closer I look at it, mostly at the face it looks like a Black Racer or a North American Racer (same thing), Coluber constrictor. If you look at the head the racer has larger more rounded eyes than the Rat. The dead giveaway is the scales a racer has smooth scales and a Rat has Keeled scales, the scales have a keel in them, a raised line in the center or each scale. This photo is unfortunately a bit blurey or not close enough for me to tell. Also if you flip them over the rat would have black and white checkered board pattern going down. The racer has more of a sinister face. Also the Rat is more majestic in is movements where the racer is FAST that's were it get its name. So I am going with racer. If the picture was just a bit more clear it would make for an easier ID.

The second snake is in fact a melanistic (dark phase) of an Eastern Garter or a Common Garter, Thamnophis sirtalis.

I have never personally seen one this dark. Cool pics thanks for sharing. There is some proof now with all the molecular biology research going on that Garters actually poses some venom, nothing that could harm a person though.


Hope this helps, I will take another look at this black snake pic and try to blow it up.

Thanks,
Chuck Annicelli
www.ConnecticutHerpetologist.com (http://www.connecticutherpetologist.com/)

Herpn
01-06-2009, 23:41
Weird not sure how I reposted that same response again 9 minutes later? I was going to Thank Shades Of Gray for calling my attention to this. If anyone has any snake or Herpetology questions feel free to aks anytime. PM's are probalby the best since I am only on this forum every now and then...

Thanks again,
Chuck

emerald
01-06-2009, 23:48
It's great to have a resource like you to help settle these ID questions and to call to our attention details we might overlook.

snowhoe
01-06-2009, 23:49
I have a masters degree in snake therory and snake behavier and both are bushmasters.

emerald
01-07-2009, 00:26
Click on the common names black racer (http://www.uga.edu/srelherp/snakes/colcon.htm) and garter snake (http://www.uga.edu/srelherp/snakes/thasir.htm) for more images and information from Snakes of Georgia and South Carolina.

Jack Tarlin
01-07-2009, 19:15
Just wanted to say that it is posts like Herpns (#12, above) that really make this website useful.

I hope that Herpns considers a full-length article for Whiteblaze, with photos, that provides detailed information on the snakes one is likely to encounter on the A.T. This would serve to inform the hikers (who are frequently overly and needlessly scared) and would help the snakes as well, who are frequently the victims of ignorant hikers.

emerald
01-10-2009, 14:48
Jack, Herpn's a busy man. A herpetologist by profession, he's out and about herping (herpn), i.e. seeking, studying and reporting back on herps to his clients.:)

sliderule
01-10-2009, 23:16
I have a masters degree in snake therory and snake behavier and both are bushmasters.

And a Ph.D. in grammar and spelling, no doubt!!!

Herpn
03-11-2009, 04:26
Jack Tarlin, thanks. Sorry for the late reply I was never subscribed to this thread. Maybe I could do something like that but it would take some time. I can say this for now, stay a safe distance from all snakes you encounter and you will be fine. It would not take much time to just be able to ID the venomous ones, Cottonmouth, Copperhead, and Rattlesnakes. All pit vipers, they are pretty easy to recognize after you have studied pictures of them.

Erin
03-11-2009, 23:04
Cool pics. I thought the first one was a black racer due to the lack of keeled scales in the photo. I thought the second was a garter variation I saw out west, so have no idea what is is in the East. I am guessing since I am an amateur herp, not a real herp like the post above. These pic ID psts are fun though.

Pollyanna
03-14-2009, 18:53
I am not great in herpetology, are these two specimens black racers/rat snakes?
Echoing what Herpn said, the snake on the left is a racer, Coluber constrictor. There's no way of pinning it down to subspecies without knowing exactly where it came from, and even then, it would be a best guess. Tennesse has both northern black racers and southern black racers, but hey, it's a racer! And if it's from Tennesse, it's a black racer. The smooth scales are really diagnostic. The head shape, eye and slatey-grey unicolor (in adults; juveniles are blotched) are also tip-offs.


Respectfully disagreeing with Herpin, I'd say that your garter snake on the right is not melanistic, but merely close to shedding its skin. It looks to be at that point in its shed cycle referred to as “opaque,” when a snake's eyes go milky white or bluish and its body color darkens as the old skin prepares to separate from the new. If those ghostly white eyes in your photo are not an artifact of your camera, or not bilateral cataracts (no really, snakes get cataracts, too) – then that's the explanation for its dark color.


If we stumble upon snakes fairly rarely when not looking for them, finding an opaque snake out and about is even less likely. They are more vulnerable at this time, so usually find a safe, humid place to coil up and wait it out untl they're ready to shed. An exception to this might be the breeding season, especially for males.

Herpn
03-14-2009, 22:01
[quote=Pollyanna;801393]

Respectfully disagreeing with Herpin, I'd say that your garter snake on the right is not melanistic, but merely close to shedding its skin. It looks to be at that point in its shed cycle referred to as “opaque,” when a snake's eyes go milky white or bluish and its body color darkens as the old skin prepares to separate from the new. If those ghostly white eyes in your photo are not an artifact of your camera, or not bilateral cataracts (no really, snakes get cataracts, too) – then that's the explanation for its dark color.quote]

That snake seems to be lacking yellow or green. Even if that snake were completely opaque (in a deep shed) it would still have some color, that snake is very black and gray. If it were that opaque the black would not be as black as it is it would be more gray and washed out looking. Garters are very polymorphic (many different patterns and colors). As for the eyes, I think that might be the tapetum lucidum (responsible for eye shine) just like you get from raccoons, dogs, cats. Without DNA this might be hard to prove.