View Full Version : Heat, health, knock Horton off trail
http://www.newsadvance.com/lna/sports/other/article/heat_health_halt_liberty_university_professors_tre k/5610/
4eyedbuzzard
06-10-2008, 08:52
Just too hot.
"Discretion is the better part of valor..."
Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-10-2008, 08:54
:( Sorry to hear this
Sounds like a near-death experience to me. He could easily have died on the first day.
I know very little about the desert, but DO know I am not safe there, on a number of levels.
Frau
Tipi Walter
06-10-2008, 09:06
Drinking cow water is one of the worst things you can do on any trail. I know, I did the same thing around Mt Rogers and puked all night long by my tent. I find it hard to believe that someone would attempt to walk/run a hot trail w/o carrying adequate water and a decent water filter. I'd like to see him jog along the trail with a 35 pound pack on his back. Momma Nature can kick our sacs when we use her to fulfill some personal ironman fantasy, especially in an attempt to make a name for ourselves. It's called hubris, or just plain naked ambition.
I wonder if Miss Nature will have a few surprises in August for the Meltzer boy attempting to speed walk/run/jog the AT?
Cookerhiker
06-10-2008, 09:07
I glad he's safe now and respect him for his clear and sober judgement of the situation. What a lesson for all of us - that even the most fit of all of us meets his limits in the desert. I for one will think of him when I'm pushing myself.
Hope he can accomplish this at a future date.
Lone Wolf
06-10-2008, 09:09
I wonder if Miss Nature will have a few surprises in August for the Meltzer boy attempting to speed walk/run/jog the AT?
nah. he'll do fine. there's tons of roads for him to be supported at. it ain't nothing like the desert. he'll do it in 45 days. GO KARL!
Tipi,
This probably is not the thread to disparage "iron man fantasies".
Let's just be grateful that someone is now safe and feel bad that a person's dream was not fulfilled.
This probably is not the thread to disparage "iron man fantasies".
Why not? And where would the proper thread be?
Lone Wolf
06-10-2008, 09:16
Why not? And where would the proper thread be?
another jealous weenie :rolleyes: start an anti-horton thread
jersey joe
06-10-2008, 09:16
Tipi,
This probably is not the thread to disparage "iron man fantasies".
Agreed. I hope Horton recovers and gives it another go!
4eyedbuzzard
06-10-2008, 09:16
Horton's pretty experienced at this stuff. And he is humble enough to admit the conditions simply kicked his @$$. I don't think he has any fantasies. Extreme expections of himself, yes, but he erred on the reality side - too hot to go on and I can't do it.
jersey joe
06-10-2008, 09:17
another jealous weenie :rolleyes:
be careful using that word wolf...it might get you in trouble.
Why not? And where would the proper thread be?
Start another thread. Do you all really have to be so negative with your narrow visions of what the outdoor experience should be? Esp. on a thread that says someone's dream is not gonna happen? The polite thing to do is at least start a discussion somewhere else.
Then again, I have been accused to being too polite.
another jealous weenie :rolleyes: start an anti-horton thread
Jealous of Dave Horton? You're joking, right?
Look, I'm glad he's OK, but the man's no fool; he knew what he was getting into, and had the sense to quit. I'll give him credit for that.
Start another thread. Do you all really have to be so negative with your narrow visions of what the outdoor experience should be? Esp. on a thread that says someone's dream is not gonna happen? The polite thing to do is at least start a discussion somewhere else.
Then again, I have been accused to being too polite.
Because I put up with lots of discussions of Dave Horton's dreams, and Wild Cowboys' dreams (etc. etc.) and all of those are wildly at odds with what I consider to be Benton MacKaye's dream. So yeah, I'll gloat, and the rest of you will just have to put up with it. ;)
dessertrat
06-10-2008, 09:32
Horton has actually run the length of the AT. He is no wild cowboy, nor does he have "iron man fantasies." He knows what a challenge is and how to meet one. In this case, he simply couldn't do it. How many men his age would even be able to do one tenth of what he can do?
So yeah, I'll gloat, and the rest of you will just have to put up with it. ;)
Well, at least you admit to being mean spirited. Sorry you feel the need to be this way.
There is something to be said for honesty.
Then again, I have been accused to being too polite.
It has been awhile that you have been gone from New England, you've gone all civil on us.
I am glad he is alive. Bet he has another crack at it, another day.
It has been awhile that you have been gone from New England, you've gone all civil on us.
Naaah...too many backhands from Mom if I did not say "Please" or "Thankyou". :)
I'm still sarcastic as ever, though. ;)
Well, at least you admit to being mean spirited. Sorry you feel the need to be this way.
There is something to be said for honesty.
Look, Dr. Horton's alive to tell the tale. He'll have more opportunities. This is no tragedy. It's about an incredibly ambitious plan that got nipped in the bud. The best laid plans of mice and men....
I'd have more sympathy if it was some house frau from Des Moines, bailing out of an attempted thru-hike in Hiawasee, to be honest.
fiddlehead
06-10-2008, 11:28
He should head up to Glacier and start it SOBO. Probably best to wait a few weeks.
Darwin again
06-10-2008, 18:27
Sounds like he narrowly escaped a darwin award.
"After getting lost and running out of water..."
The ending could have easily been different.
Bare Bear
06-10-2008, 20:52
I remember about twenty 'hikers' running past me at Winding Stair then realized they were all slackpacking/no pack running. HYOH I had the greatest respect for Butterfly (later Fruitypie) 06'who was carrying a pack and still knocking off 25 mile days from Springer. She was awesome to see if only for a few minutes as she flew past.
Hikerhead
06-10-2008, 21:18
He's a smart guy. He'll be back there to try it again when the time is right. We all learn by our mistakes. Horton is the real deal.
Lone Wolf
06-11-2008, 10:12
He's a smart guy. He'll be back there to try it again when the time is right. We all learn by our mistakes. Horton is the real deal.
he won't be attempting a speed hike on the CDT again http://eco-xsports.blogspot.com/
Because I put up with lots of discussions of Dave Horton's dreams, and Wild Cowboys' dreams (etc. etc.) and all of those are wildly at odds with what I consider to be Benton MacKaye's dream. So yeah, I'll gloat, and the rest of you will just have to put up with it. ;)
This comment betrays a considerable ignorance about the origins of the AT. The experience that MacKaye actually envisioned is quite different from the culture that has evolved around the trail; he belonged to a fairly radical school of communitarian thought in the Progressive Era, and he wanted the trail the act as a sort of seed for a more or less socialist revolution that would dismantle industrial capitalism and return people to the woods. It was an exercise in "regional planning" as he put it, and it was a vision that is totally at odds with the pure-wilderness, LNT stuff that we all do today (not saying that all that is incorrect, just that itīs not what MacKaye wanted). He thought that the shelters would serve as starting points for little self-sufficient wilderness communities. He wanted people to go into the woods and stay there, to live there, to reenter into an organic relationship with the outdoors. He would have been horrified by LNT. He wanted us to leave more than a trace, he wanted us to integrate with the woods.
Now, this has nothing to do with speed hiking, but the point is that itīs not very effective to invoke some historical precedent as the argument against athletic backpacking; the historical precedent has long since been overwhelmed by the role of wilderness in the American imagination, which is largely horrified by the idea of a real human relationship with nature. Hence the somewhat crazed insistence that when we move a rock to pitch our tent that we move it back the next morning, etc.
Also, this isnīt really directed at you Terrapin, but it seems pretty clear to me that most of the shreiking outrage about speed record attemps boils down to simple and tragically transparent insecurity.
warraghiyagey
06-11-2008, 10:29
Ummm . . . so there??:confused:
Lone Wolf
06-11-2008, 10:30
speed hikers are the most LNT of all trail users
This comment betrays a considerable ignorance about the origins of the AT. The experience that MacKaye actually envisioned is quite different from the culture that has evolved around the trail; he belonged to a fairly radical school of communitarian thought in the Progressive Era, and he wanted the trail the act as a sort of seed for a more or less socialist revolution that would dismantle industrial capitalism and return people to the woods. It was an exercise in "regional planning" as he put it, and it was a vision that is totally at odds with the pure-wilderness, LNT stuff that we all do today (not saying that all that is incorrect, just that itīs not what MacKaye wanted). He thought that the shelters would serve as starting points for little self-sufficient wilderness communities. He wanted people to go into the woods and stay there, to live there, to reenter into an organic relationship with the outdoors. He would have been horrified by LNT. He wanted us to leave more than a trace, he wanted us to integrate with the woods.
No doubt MacKaye was well left-of-center poltiically, but having read Larry Anderson's biography of MacKaye, I don't recall any support for your rather extreme assertions about what MacKaye "wanted" -- eg., to "dismantle industrial capitalism." He clearly didn't anticipate thru-hiking, that much I'd agree with. He clearly felt that modern urban life (as he knew it in 1921) left people "spiritually malnourished" and that quality time spent in the woods was the cure.
He would have been horrified by LNT. He wanted us to leave more than a trace, he wanted us to integrate with the woods.
Maybe, maybe not, but I've said nothing whatsoever about LNT. AFAIK, the camps he envisioned for the Appalachian corridor were to be for short-term occupation.
Also, this isnīt really directed at you Terrapin, but it seems pretty clear to me that most of the shreiking outrage about speed record attemps boils down to simple and tragically transparent insecurity.Thanks for that bit of pop-psych. ;) I don't recall any shreiking outrage, more like a shrug... you know, like "who cares?"
Now, I totally respect Horton as an athlete especially after setting the PCT record. No doubt, there aren;t many people that can do what he does: hiking 40-50 miles a day for sustained periods of time through all different conditions.
Now that being said, I can't believe he actually said "the CDT shouldn't go through New Mexico because there is no trail". I hope there was some joking tone I didn't pick up on, cuz otherwise, that's kinda sour grapes.
I also don't understand the mentality of 'if I don't speed hike it, It's not worth walking/hiking/running at all. Seems like one can THEN make the point they aren't really out there to enjoy it, but to each their own.
Still, an incredible athlete, and I wish him the best in the future.
4eyedbuzzard
06-11-2008, 19:51
speed hikers are the most LNT of all trail users
Perhaps those who go unsupported. But I have doubts those with a support crew are. Doesn't really matter, the LNT concept has been corrupted into little more than a political pissing match anyway. It should never have been called "Leave NO Trace," anyway. "Leave Less Damage" would have been more appropriate.
Perhaps those who go unsupported. But I have doubts those with a support crew are. Doesn't really matter, the LNT concept has been corrupted into little more than a political pissing match anyway. It should never have been called "Leave NO Trace," anyway. "Leave Less Damage" would have been more appropriate.
Just wondering... what's Horton's attempted CDT speed hike got to do with LNT? :confused:
Lone Wolf
06-11-2008, 19:59
Perhaps those who go unsupported. But I have doubts those with a support crew are. Doesn't really matter, the LNT concept has been corrupted into little more than a political pissing match anyway.
i've been support crew for 4 different hikers on trails doing records. how T F do you think these hikes are non-LNT? another cyber hiker that doesn't know poo. explain your pithy response
Lone Wolf
06-11-2008, 20:01
Just wondering... what's Horton's attempted CDT speed hike got to do with LNT? :confused:
nothing. he's never left a physical trace on any of his adventures
nothing. he's never left a physical trace on any of his adventures
But more than a few words on websites and hiking forums, eh? ;)
4eyedbuzzard
06-11-2008, 20:07
i've been support crew for 4 different hikers on trails doing records. how T F do you think these hikes are non-LNT? another cyber hiker that doesn't know poo. explain your pithy response
How can someone WITH other people packing food and supplies in for them not be leaving roughly the same total "trace" on their hike as someone carrying their own gear and food. Unless all the support happens at road crossings and stays there, you're putting at minimum another set of feet on trail at many places along with whatever else that entails.
And IIRC, you have said in previous threads that there is no such thing as leave no trace, that it's an unachievable goal.
Lone Wolf
06-11-2008, 20:10
How can someone WITH other people packing food and supplies in for them not be leaving roughly the same total "trace" on their hike as someone carrying their own gear and food. Unless all the support happens at road crossings and stays there, you're putting at minimum another set of feet on trail at many places along with whatever else that entails.
And IIRC, you have said in previous threads that there is no such thing as leave no trace, that it's an unachievable goal.
like i said, you are clueless as to how these events happen
4eyedbuzzard
06-11-2008, 20:20
Just wondering... what's Horton's attempted CDT speed hike got to do with LNT? :confused:
I think someone posted that speed hikes go against LNT. LW took issue with that and claims speed hikers leave the least impact. I can't see how a speed hike leaves any more or less trace than any other hike, especially if it puts additional people in the woods/on the trail to support it.
I figure that ANYONE who takes a step in the woods leaves a trace of somekind. Some just tread lighter than others.
4eyedbuzzard
06-11-2008, 20:23
like i said, you are clueless as to how these events happen
Okay. Why do speed hikes impact the trail less?
I think someone posted that speed hikes go against LNT. LW took issue with that and claims speed hikers leave the least impact. I can't see how a speed hike leaves any more or less trace than any other hike, especially if it puts additional people in the woods/on the trail to support it.
I figure that ANYONE who takes a step in the woods leaves a trace of somekind. Some just tread lighter than others.
K, since he won't answer you, I'll try. His point is probably that a speed hiker will have less impact than the typical backpacker/thru-hiker because they won't camp in the woods, will probably take less dumps in the woods (less tp) and won't be washing his/her clothes in the stream, or cleaning their pot. Plus, a speed hiker will be out there 40-60 days where a thru-hiker will be out 2-3 times as long. So, LW is right.
If you're talking about environmental footprint, well then that's a whole different outcome.
I figure that ANYONE who takes a step in the woods leaves a trace of somekind. Some just tread lighter than others.
I kinda like the traces that MacKaye left. You know, like the AT, the Wilderness Society... ;)
fiddlehead
06-11-2008, 21:25
Now that being said, I can't believe he actually said "the CDT shouldn't go through New Mexico because there is no trail". I hope there was some joking tone I didn't pick up on, cuz otherwise, that's kinda sour grapes.
.
Now that's funny!
Our motto on both my CDT hikes was: "The CDT, it's not for everybody"!
Like we've been saying, it's hard to set a speed record on a trail that isn't always a trail and hikers can pretty much do what they want as far as direction. Every junction creates a decision. Much time is spent lost and your map reading skills get challenged everyday.
The ultimate hike is a pure bushwhack!
No doubt MacKaye was well left-of-center poltiically, but having read Larry Anderson's biography of MacKaye, I don't recall any support for your rather extreme assertions about what MacKaye "wanted" -- eg., to "dismantle industrial capitalism." He clearly didn't anticipate thru-hiking, that much I'd agree with. He clearly felt that modern urban life (as he knew it in 1921) left people "spiritually malnourished" and that quality time spent in the woods was the cure.
Maybe, maybe not, but I've said nothing whatsoever about LNT. AFAIK, the camps he envisioned for the Appalachian corridor were to be for short-term occupation.
Thanks for that bit of pop-psych. ;) I don't recall any shreiking outrage, more like a shrug... you know, like "who cares?"
Ok, maybe dismantling industrial captialism is a wee overstatement, but not by that much. I had to write a massive research paper on this for a history class sophomore year of college, and I slogged through MacKayeīs incredibly tedious book about regional planning, and the ultimate goal of the whole proposition was really quite radical.
As for shreiking outrage, I think so. Remember that post a while back from some guy saying that he was going to trip Karl Meltzer with his trekking poles if he passed him on the trail? Iīm sure this would never actually happen, but the sentiment is genuine. Itīs one thing not to understand people like Horton, but the witch-burning mentality on whiteblaze is both incredibly unappealing and a big turn off from the site in general. Interestingly in that same post there was some comment to the effect of the poster being disabled somehow, and how he could only hike 10 miles a day. The biggest haters are almost always the ones that see in people like Horton a threat to their sense of worth, which is stupid, but such is man.
Remember that post a while back from some guy saying that he was going to trip Karl Meltzer with his trekking poles if he passed him on the trail?
It was a woman that posted that.
Now that being said, I can't believe he actually said "the CDT shouldn't go through New Mexico because there is no trail". I hope there was some joking tone I didn't pick up on, cuz otherwise, that's kinda sour grapes.
There is a trail (of sorts) in the area...just not up to well marked, race course standards with aide stations everywhere. :)
I suspect most trail runners (who tend to stick to well marked trails/races) do not have the requisite outdoor experience to tackle CDT.
Not a judgment..just a fact about the CDT.
Now that's funny!
Our motto on both my CDT hikes was: "The CDT, it's not for everybody"!
My buddy d-low says "Embrace the brutality!"
It has become a very good catchphrase for the CDT. :)
Blissful
06-12-2008, 09:41
The guy did the right thing by getting off.
4eyedbuzzard
06-12-2008, 10:14
Ok, maybe dismantling industrial captialism is a wee overstatement, but not by that much. I had to write a massive research paper on this for a history class sophomore year of college, and I slogged through MacKayeīs incredibly tedious book about regional planning, and the ultimate goal of the whole proposition was really quite radical.
As for shreiking outrage, I think so. Remember that post a while back from some guy saying that he was going to trip Karl Meltzer with his trekking poles if he passed him on the trail? Iīm sure this would never actually happen, but the sentiment is genuine. Itīs one thing not to understand people like Horton, but the witch-burning mentality on whiteblaze is both incredibly unappealing and a big turn off from the site in general. Interestingly in that same post there was some comment to the effect of the poster being disabled somehow, and how he could only hike 10 miles a day. The biggest haters are almost always the ones that see in people like Horton a threat to their sense of worth, which is stupid, but such is man.
Yeah, there's some outright witch burning mentality displayed here occaisionally. But there's a hell of a lot more sarcastic humor that simply flies way over the heads of many as well. People take this **** way too seriously.
Yeah, there's some outright witch burning mentality displayed here occaisionally. But there's a hell of a lot more sarcastic humor that simply flies way over the heads of many as well. People take this **** way too seriously.
Hike my hike, damn it! :D
4eyedbuzzard
06-12-2008, 11:27
Hike my hike, damn it! :D
I refuse to submit to the HMOH rules of the HHCH! Well, unless they send me a certificate or patch or something, 'cause that would obviously make it worth following da rules.
Darwin again
06-12-2008, 12:27
This comment betrays a considerable ignorance about the origins of the AT. The experience that MacKaye actually envisioned is quite different from the culture that has evolved around the trail; he belonged to a fairly radical school of communitarian thought in the Progressive Era, and he wanted the trail the act as a sort of seed for a more or less socialist revolution that would dismantle industrial capitalism and return people to the woods. It was an exercise in "regional planning" as he put it, and it was a vision that is totally at odds with the pure-wilderness, LNT stuff that we all do today (not saying that all that is incorrect, just that itīs not what MacKaye wanted). He thought that the shelters would serve as starting points for little self-sufficient wilderness communities. He wanted people to go into the woods and stay there, to live there, to reenter into an organic relationship with the outdoors. He would have been horrified by LNT. He wanted us to leave more than a trace, he wanted us to integrate with the woods.
Now, this has nothing to do with speed hiking, but the point is that itīs not very effective to invoke some historical precedent as the argument against athletic backpacking; the historical precedent has long since been overwhelmed by the role of wilderness in the American imagination, which is largely horrified by the idea of a real human relationship with nature. Hence the somewhat crazed insistence that when we move a rock to pitch our tent that we move it back the next morning, etc.
Also, this isnīt really directed at you Terrapin, but it seems pretty clear to me that most of the shreiking outrage about speed record attemps boils down to simple and tragically transparent insecurity.
This is an excellent post.
It could also be argued that the AT idea was MacKaye's post-traumatic-stressed response to his wife's suicide -- after her death he junped out of society for a long while, didn't he? To Stratton Mountain in Vermont or thereabouts. Interesting stuff.
This is an excellent post.
Nah, it's BS, mostly. Read Larry Anderson's bio, or just read MacKaye's 1921 proposal -- it's on the 'net, and it's not that long.
It could also be argued that the AT idea was MacKaye's post-traumatic-stressed response to his wife's suicide -- after her death he junped out of society for a long while, didn't he? To Stratton Mountain in Vermont or thereabouts. Interesting stuff.
MacKaye grew up and died in Shirley MA, about an hour's drive west of Boston. He lived in New York City for some time, but his heart was in Shirley and he spent most of his later years there. So Stratton Mtn. was close to home -- and Mt. Watatic, the northern terminus of MA Mid-State trail, was practically his back yard. Yes, he was an odd fellow, a long-time government employee (originally in the US Forest Service under Gifford Pinchot) and later just... a writer of grand plans. He wasn't a hermit -- he had a collection of close friends to whom he was devoted and who were devoted to him. But he never remarried after his wife's suicide. MacKaye was also a founding member of The Wilderness Society -- so the AT isn't his only legacy.
The Solemates
06-12-2008, 13:37
Hike my hike, damn it! :D
Mags, you been up in the leadville area lately>? hows the snow level up high? headed there today..
To walk. To see. To see what you see.
-Benton MacKaye
Why make it more complicated? :)
Mags, you been up in the leadville area lately>? hows the snow level up high? headed there today..
Snowlevels are through the roof this year. North facing slopes will definitely have postholing. I'm sure you'll have fun though either way! :)
Darwin again
06-12-2008, 13:59
Nah, it's BS, mostly. Read Larry Anderson's bio, or just read MacKaye's 1921 proposal -- it's on the 'net, and it's not that long.
Reading a single book about someone sometimes isn't as useful as reading what that person actually wrote.
MacKaye was a bit of an oddfellow and he had distinct communitarian and progressive leanings. His professional life was punctuated by his ideas being rejected or simply ignored by his superiors in the gubmint. His AT idea was crystallized when he took time off after his wife's suicide in 1921 (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9F0CE2DD113FEE3ABC4152DFB266838A 639EDE). Both he and his wife were ardent progressives who probably would be called liberals today.
(Good link above, with aticle in .pdf form: "Mrs. Mackaye gone; threatened suicide/Suffragist and Peace Advocate Eludes Husband and Nurse in Grand Central Throng./Was about to board train/Writer believes his wife, suffering from overwork, will be found in some hospital. article begins: Benton Mackaye, writer and forestry expert of 145 West Twelfth Strees, asked police at 1 o'clock yesterday to search for his wife, Mrs. Jessie Hardy Stubbs Mackaye, President of the Milwaukee Women's Peace Society and Legislative Chairman of the Women's Peace Society of this city, who disappeared in the throgn about Grand Central Terminal shortly after noon after saying that she planned to end her life. NYTIMES, April 19, 1921)
The Solemates
06-12-2008, 14:17
Snowlevels are through the roof this year. North facing slopes will definitely have postholing. I'm sure you'll have fun though either way! :)
really? i called the rangers and they said the north trail is perhaps passable with postholing, but need snowshoes on the routh trail
Reading a single book about someone sometimes isn't as useful as reading what that person actually wrote.
As I said, read MacKaye's original proposal:
http://www.fred.net/kathy/at/mackaye.html -- Part 1
http://www.fred.net/kathy/at/mackaye2.html -- Part 2
One of the more memorable lines from Part 2, IMO:
The camp community is a sanctuary and a refuge from the scramble of every-day worldly commercial life. It is in essence a retreat from profit. Cooperation replaces antagonism, trust replaces suspicion, emulation replaces competition.
Darwin again
06-12-2008, 14:42
As I said, read MacKaye's original proposal:
http://www.fred.net/kathy/at/mackaye.html -- Part 1
http://www.fred.net/kathy/at/mackaye2.html -- Part 2
One of the more memorable lines from Part 2, IMO:
The camp community is a sanctuary and a refuge from the scramble of every-day worldly commercial life. It is in essence a retreat from profit. Cooperation replaces antagonism, trust replaces suspicion, emulation replaces competition.
Sound like an indictment of capitalist alienation to me. I think you're arguing with yourself, terp.
[quote=The Solemates;643156 north trail is perhaps passable with postholing, but need snowshoes on the routh trail[/quote]
Just to make sure we are on the same page, I said the north *facing* trails will have postholing for sure. I think the ranger and I both said the same thing..perhaps put differently?
I had the chance to go skiing last weekend in the high country. That should tell you how much snow there is this year. :O
RITBlake
06-12-2008, 17:14
holy crap look how swollen his hands are in that 4th video, that's insane
http://eco-xsports.blogspot.com/
Darwin again
06-12-2008, 20:32
holy crap look how swollen his hands are in that 4th video, that's insane
http://eco-xsports.blogspot.com/
Darwin Award candidate.
Darwin Award candidate.
I don't think so. Horton may be seriously type-A, but he's not stupid.
Lone Wolf
06-12-2008, 20:41
Darwin Award candidate.
nope. i know horty personally. he's one tough mofo
Darwin again
06-12-2008, 21:34
God just wasn't ready for him yet.
He's lucky.
Lone Wolf
06-12-2008, 21:37
God just wasn't ready for him yet.
He's lucky.
there is no god stupid :rolleyes:
Y'all know about the dyslexic atheist insomniac, right? Stayed up all night wondering if there really was a dog...
The CDT in NM shouldn't exist? IMO, it was one of the best parts!
Nah, it's BS, mostly.
No itīs not. The public proposals, especially the major piece in the New York Times that really kicked the project off, were all very toned down; it was phrased as a respite from urban squalor, but if you read his book on regional planning youīll find that he really wanted the trail to grow into something far more than recreation.
If anything, MacKaye was something of an intellectual leech on his brother, who was spectacularly liberal.
No itīs not. The public proposals, especially the major piece in the New York Times that really kicked the project off, were all very toned down; it was phrased as a respite from urban squalor, but if you read his book on regional planning youīll find that he really wanted the trail to grow into something far more than recreation.
If anything, MacKaye was something of an intellectual leech on his brother, who was spectacularly liberal.
You mean Morton Mackaye? Just kiddin. You're FOS.
The CDT in NM shouldn't exist? IMO, it was one of the best parts!
I am hoping he said that because he was just plain exhausted. God knows I've said and done things when I was tired that I would not have said if I was well rested.
Anyway, those mesa ridge walks in NMexico were indeed one of the highlights of the trail. Ghost Ranch was pretty cool, too.