View Full Version : CCC Projects
Old Grouse
06-20-2008, 08:39
In another thread a question was asked about stone arches possibly being an old Civilian Conservation Corps project. Those weren't, but I wonder if there are some CCC projects still visible and/or in use along the AT. I know that there are CCC stone retaining walls in Connecticut's Macedonia Brook State Park, through which the AT used to run before it was re-routed. Where else...anybody?
If I have my history right, the AT through SNP would be one example. It's a heavily "engineered" piece of trail.
I was reading the other post you mentioned and it prompted me to learn more about the CCC.
I found this site very informative http://www.cccalumni.org/history1.html
I was in Macedonia last week and saw the retaining walls you mentions and knew they were done by the CCC.
Dances with Mice
06-20-2008, 09:08
In another thread a question was asked about stone arches possibly being an old Civilian Conservation Corps project. Those weren't, but I wonder if there are some CCC projects still visible and/or in use along the AT. I know that there are CCC stone retaining walls in Connecticut's Macedonia Brook State Park, through which the AT used to run before it was re-routed. Where else...anybody?Blood Mtn Shelter and the Walasi-Yi building at Neel Gap, both built of local rock and salvaged chestnut logs.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-20-2008, 09:23
The AT has been routed away from many of the remaining CCC structures due to the move away from roadwalks. Warren Doyle can probably remember some of those.
Letchworth State Park (http://www.letchworthparkhistory.com/cccstatue.html), in upstate New York, would be an excellent example.
envirodiver
06-20-2008, 09:49
If I remember correctly there is a significant stretch of trail in Cohutta that was built by the CCC.
there is a four mile stretch of trail that runs on a "deserted roadway" east of Dick's Creek" a day or two (7 to 10 mile days here, folks).
There was stone work here and there. a later check showed it was done by the CCC. Around the time that skyline drive was first built.
The Georgia Appalachian Trail Club found stakes in front of a shelter, (maybe at deep gap??) called Washington to complain. The "powers that be said "you don't like it? Okay, we'll stop". And they did.
Grinder
Appalachian Tater
06-20-2008, 11:00
I find this topic very interesting--the work done by the CCC was pretty impressive and is unlikely to be duplicated in scale and quality these days. When Googling it, there are so many references that I couldn't possibly list them all. It looks like the CCC was involved in parts of the trail in almost every state from Georgia to Maine.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=%22civilian+conservation+corps%22++%22appalachia n+trail%22&btnG=Search
I find this topic very interesting--the work done by the CCC was pretty impressive and is unlikely to be duplicated in scale and quality these days. When Googling it, there are so many references that I couldn't possibly list them all. It looks like the CCC was involved in parts of the trail in almost every state.
Ayup, that's my understanding also. There was a time when the gummint actually did useful work (or at least supported such work) for the benefit of common folk -- that didn't involve paving or bombing the planet.
Appalachian Tater
06-20-2008, 11:08
Ayup, that's my understanding also. There was a time when the gummint actually did useful work (or at least supported such work) for the benefit of common folk -- that didn't involve paving or bombing the planet.Paying people to work is better than paying them to be unemployed.
But let's can the political talk outside of the political forums before it gets canned for us!
The shelter south of rufus morgan, I think it is cold spring shelter, log structure, was built by the CCC. The structures built at Newfound Gap were built by the CCC. I was wondering if the retaining wall I hiked past on the blue ridge parkway was CCC, but I don't know when the blue ridge was built. Looked like CCC work though.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-20-2008, 11:19
I've seen some absolutely beautiful stone work on bridges in the GSMNP's southern section along abandoned roads. Unsure if this was where the AT originally ran or not, but it does seem consistent with Earl Shaffer's mention of seeing such bridges in his journal.
Appalachian Tater
06-20-2008, 11:20
The shelter south of rufus morgan, I think it is cold spring shelter, log structure, was built by the CCC. The structures built at Newfound Gap were built by the CCC. I was wondering if the retaining wall I hiked past on the blue ridge parkway was CCC, but I don't know when the blue ridge was built. Looked like CCC work though.
http://www.asla.org/meetings/awards/awds01/blueridge.html
Caughnawaga Shelter, Vermont. I think I saw a plaque with a date of 1930-something. Photo taken at a break; I didn't stay. A father/son hiking duo was staying there.
http://gallery.backcountry.net/albums/at-vt-2002/aae.jpg
LIhikers
06-20-2008, 11:35
There are lots of examples of CCC work in NY's Harriman State Park but I can't think of any trailside to the AT. Some of the lakes in the park were formed by dams built by CCC and there were water supply systems built to get water to camps that were going to be built so the people of NYC would have some place to escape the summer heat of the city. As far as I know none of the camps were ever built though. Remains of the plumbing and water tanks on hills still remain.
Appalachian Tater
06-20-2008, 11:45
High Point and William Brien shelters were CCC.
Oh, and Walasi-Yi.
Hikes in Rain
06-20-2008, 12:18
The various retaining walls and such in the northern Smokies.
double d
06-20-2008, 12:24
The CCC and GSMNP were great examples of FDR's and (the Democrat party's) committment to the betterment of the U.S. The CCC had projects all over the U.S., too bad we do not have that organization now.
Old Grouse
06-20-2008, 13:01
The CCC was certainly remarkable, both in the way it addressed the severe economic and social issues of the time, and in the results it achieved. I’ll bet many of its young graduates found themselves in the armed forces just a few years later, part of the "Greatest Generation." We owe them our gratitude for so much, obviously including a lot of the infrastructure which we now enjoy as we hike and camp around the country.
I find this topic very interesting--the work done by the CCC was pretty impressive and is unlikely to be duplicated in scale and quality these days.
I find this topic interesting too, but I must disagree with your assertion that the quality at least is no longer being matched.
The work done by Lester Kenway and those who worked under him in Baxter State Park on the Hunt Trail and perhaps other places will outlast most if not all of us now reading. Quality is not a concept which has been completely forgotten in recent times when much does seem to be created with the intent that it wear out and require replacement.
Appalachian Tater
06-20-2008, 13:10
I find this topic interesting too, but I must disagree with your assertion that the quality at least is no longer being matched.
The work done by Lester Kenway and those who worked under him in Baxter State Park on the Hunt Trail and perhaps other places will outlast most if not all of us now reading. Quality is not a concept which has been completely forgotten in recent times when much does seem to be created with the intent that it wear out and require replacement.Well, I wasn't trying to detract from some of the current work being done. The philosophy towards trail-building has changed quite a bit and the style of rock walls and steps the CCC built just isn't being done these days. But there are some pretty impressive stone steps and trailwork being done, and I do remember staying in a fairly-new stone shelter that was very nice indeed, where I can't remember. I believe it had a round window in the gable.
I'd argue, but I must return to work and you're asking me to provide information in a manner I'd find irritating if I cared.:rolleyes:
Appalachian Tater
06-20-2008, 13:22
I'd argue, but I must return to work and you're asking me to provide information in a manner I'd find irritating if I cared.:rolleyes:Wow, hope your day gets better. :)
It will. I'm about to head back now.
The various retaining walls and such in the northern Smokies.
Nice work. Someone post a pic for those who've never seen what the real item looks like, ok?:)
Appalachian Tater
06-20-2008, 13:29
http://www.jmclum.com/fall2000/091800b.jpg
Here it is, Happy Hill Shelter in Vermont. I didn't stay in it, though, I tented near it.
Dry-laid stonework that protects a well-designed treadway impresses me more. When done well, it's worth every minute devoted to it.
Such work pays dividends for years to come, when one considers the time saved can be devoted to other works done well instead of reworking what wasn't done right and should have been done right the 1st time.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-20-2008, 13:58
Nice work. Someone post a pic for those who've never seen what the real item looks like, ok?:)http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b47/lowcarbscoop/Retainingwalltrail.jpg
http://web.utk.edu/%7Ewmorgan/TR/Sugarlands-Bridge1X.jpg
The stone wall (not the bridge) above -- doesn't look CCC-ish. This is very, very common throughout the woods in New England. Much of these woods were farms up until the civil war. Story I heard is that after the war, there weren't enough menfolk left to work the farms.... over time, they were reclaimed by woods.
The bridge is classic CCC stonework.
Update, 8:45 PM: my comment about the stone wall no longer applies, as Dino has updated the photo. I agree, that's an engineered bit of trail, though I wouldn't know to attribute it to the CCC.
Ayup, that's my understanding also. There was a time when the gummint actually did useful work (or at least supported such work) for the benefit of common folk -- that didn't involve paving or bombing the planet.
Don't be cynical. Government stepped in and bought the trail corridor when the trail began to disappear as private land was sold and the new owners insisted that the trail get off their lands. Without the government, a continuous trail wouldn't exist.
The National Park Service continues to finance sophisticated trail work too technical for most volunteers. The Maine Trail Crew, which is heavily subsidized by the NPS, has reconstructed many miles of the Maine trail.
CCC workers finally connected the north and south portions of the trail in 1937, creating a continuous footpath for the first time. The connection occurred a few miles south of Sugarloaf and is marked by a plaque put in place 30 years ago. The original route remains the route of the AT in the area, 71 years later.
Weary
Old Grouse
06-20-2008, 14:18
Terrapin, I think the bulk of the exodus from New England occurred in the 1880s. Yes, post-Civil War and probably fueled by it in part. Those young men came back to their sour, rocky, vertical patches, having seen the beautiful farmland elsewhere, and within a few years just picked up and went west. My mother, a New Hampshire farm girl to her dying days, would get teary thinking of all the beautiful (in her eyes) farmsteads she'd seen fall into ruin.
Of course the same story could be told elsewhere in the States by just shifting the era and direction of migration.
Weary, do you happen to know how much of the trail was on public (government-owned) land prior to 1968? I'm just asking. AFAIK, that was when the trail received legal recognition at the federal level.
The stone wall (not the bridge) above -- doesn't look CCC-ish. This is very, very common throughout the woods in New England. Much of these woods were farms up until the civil war. Story I heard is that after the war, there weren't enough menfolk left to work the farms.... over time, they were reclaimed by woods.
The bridge is classic CCC stonework.
I could be wrong, but I don't think that is a picture of a stone wall (fence). It looks like one of the many 'knife-edge' ridgewalk sections between Newfound Gap and Davenport Gap.
funkcicle
06-20-2008, 14:39
We owe a lot to the CCC, I'm still amazed that I(and presumably millions of others) was never taught about it in high school. So much of American history and culture is owed to the CCC, right down to our 40 hour work week. Those buildings and bridges are America's castles, and many will likely still be standing 200, 400, 600 years from now, even with little or no maintenance.. how many structures from 'our' generation are likely to be standing even 100 years from now? It'd almost take another great depression to bring back a widespread appreciation for that sort of quality, and a work ethic to yield it.
Appalachian Tater
06-20-2008, 14:42
We owe a lot to the CCC, I'm still amazed that I(and presumably millions of others) was never taught about it in high school. It was probably indirectly mentioned in history when you learned about the Great Depression and the government's New Deal "alphabet soup" response to it.
Hikes in Rain
06-20-2008, 14:48
I could be wrong, but I don't think that is a picture of a stone wall (fence). It looks like one of the many 'knife-edge' ridgewalk sections between Newfound Gap and Davenport Gap.
It is. I have much the same picture, but the Dinos beat me to posting it. Theirs is better, anyway. :)
Old Grouse
06-20-2008, 14:53
High school kids by and large aren't interested in history like us older coots who've lived some of it.
Those buildings and bridges are America's castles, and many will likely still be standing 200, 400, 600 years from now, even with little or no maintenance
Maybe. According to Sheila Miller, The Green Diamond's barns are America's castles (http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=94630).
I don't know of any work on the AT here by CCC, but examples remain elsewhere, some of which are off the beaten track, rarely seen and unknown to most today.
One of the reasons for so much work by the CCC in the GSMNP had to do with timing. The park was essentially being "reclaimed and developed" during the CCC era. Acquistion
Well, I hit the enter key too quick there. To finish, I was pointing out that acquisition was just being completed as the CCC era began. There was a lot of work to be done to "clean up" the park from the numerous small settlements and holdings, not to mention the work that had to be done to clean up the massive cut offs by the lumber companies.
Not just the AT but all the trail work in the park is pretty impressive.
[Quote Weary]
CCC workers finally connected the north and south portions of the trail in 1937, creating a continuous footpath for the first time. The connection occurred a few miles south of Sugarloaf and is marked by a plaque put in place 30 years ago. The original route remains the route of the AT in the area, 71 years later.
Nicksaari
06-20-2008, 16:42
my grandfather on my fathers side was grew up in the slums of union hill, in church hill, here in Richmond. upon joining the CCC during the depression, he worked in SNP, moving south on the Alleghenies, working on many of the beautiful stone structures still remaining in Douthat SP, Hungry Mother state park, and Fairy Stone SP. upon entering Lee county in extreme SW virignia, he was working on some **** in Pennington gap and the park at the Cumberland gap, he was turning an old wagon grade into a state road though a family farm, and spotted my grandmother walking to church on a wed aftenoon. so it goes...he said to his fellow ccc buddy, thats the girl im going to marry. and he did. joined navy in '38, survived all amphibious assaults in the pacific on the USS Stanley. iwo jima, layte gulf, kamikaze/baka bomb pilots, you name it, he saw it. the day he left the navy in '58, he became a henrico county cop.
i am so very proud to be his grandson, god rest his soul.
as for CCC work visible on the trail, like Terrapin stated, most of the trail in SNP is CCC built. a few of the huts are original CCC camps. Pocosin cabin in central SNP is CCC built.
boys and men jumped at the opportunity to help their country. it was a different time...
double d
06-20-2008, 17:13
Nicksaari, your grandfather was a very special man (and of course, he lives through you). The generation that survived the Great Depression and then WWII was a special group of folks, and my grandfather has a similiar history as yours (mine did not become a police officer). That generation also has a very keen sense of humor, much devoid of the sarcasm we see today.
Nicksaari, your grandfather was a very special man (and of course, he lives through you). The generation that survived the Great Depression and then WWII was a special group of folks, and my grandfather has a similiar history as yours (mine did not become a police officer). That generation also has a very keen sense of humor, much devoid of the sarcasm we see today.
I'm not so sure about the sense of humor part. My (late) parents were of that generation, as were my wife's parents, now both well into their nineties. I can't say any of them had or have a particularly keen sense of humor. Small sampling, I'll grant. In my parents' case the dour attitude may have had something to do with the Holocaust, I suspect. Plus there was some bad juju going down in the USA in the 1950s, what with the HUAC witch-trials. Not everyone was having a fun time.
Dry-laid stonework that protects a well-designed treadway impresses me more. When done well, it's worth every minute devoted to it.
Such work pays dividends for years to come, when one considers the time saved can be devoted to other works done well instead of reworking what wasn't done right and should have been done right the 1st time.
Ah Shades. Everything would be perfect in a perfect world. Since such doesn't exist. we should recognize that humans just stumble along, as is their wont.
Maine had a trail built largely on wood roads in the valleys in the 1930s because trail advocates were disputing even the wisdom of continuing into a state where rivers were the essential transportation arteries for wildland visitors, and where public roads were scarce.
But then -- after years of lobbying -- ATC and other trail groups, somewhat to their surprise, convinced Jimmy Carter -- that "failed" President -- to push, and Congress to pass permanent protection -- and set a deadline for deciding where the trail should be.
Trail groups were elated at the unexpected victory. But they then had to decide where that might be. Maine chose the ridges. And began a decade and a half effort to put the trail there.
Some ridges, in hindsight, proved to be PUDS. Some of the trail relocations skimped on soil science, and erosion resulted. The result was not perfect trail. Just the best trail humans could design in a hurry.
Weary