Bearpaw & Windjammer off trail

[Bearpaw88]

For the people still looking for us- we had to get off trail near Waynesboro.

A buisness ( to remain unnamed ) we stopped in along trail decided to clean out our trail funds from Windjammers account. We had enough for a bus ticket, a room, and a meal.

So I am back in Wisconsin missing the hell out of the AT and the people I've met.

To everyone I got to know along the way on trails and in towns, especially Damascus, THANK YOU YOUR AWSOME

We will going to trail days next year then hiking north from where we left off.

:( Sincerely a sad Bearpaw

[Lone Wolf]

why not post the business so other folks don't go there?

[Bearpaw88]

Windjammer is dealing with the banks fraud department and we will get the money back ... we just don't know when

[Bearpaw88]

why not post the business so other folks don't go there?

I want to make sure there are no libel problems, he is claiming a clerical error. We know it is now. Plus everyone on trail knows its a bad place. I'll PM you.

[Jack Tarlin]

If you were indeed ripped off or defrauded by a Trailside business; if you have no doubt of this; and can prove it; then by all means you should provide more details.

[Bearpaw88]

If you were indeed ripped off or defrauded by a Trailside business; if you have no doubt of this; and can prove it; then by all means you should provide more details.

We can prove we were not in Erwin, TN when the charges were made. But there is no way to prove it wasn't a clerical error. However, the place has a manual credit machine and unlesss they saved our number purposfully. I do not see how it could have been a clerical error.

[Jack Tarlin]

Gee, anyone other than me read between the lines here? :D

So much for leopards changing spots. :rolleyes:

Say no more.

[musicwoman]

I can't see how someone cleaning out someone else's bank account could be claimed as a "clerical error".

Having been a victim of something similiar, I empathize with your situation, however, I am not afraid of any company coming after me for libel.

The company that ripped me off was called Consumer Trust Financial. I got the BBB and the Attorney General's from both NY and Florida involved. This happened in March, still waiting for my money back.

[Cherokee Bill]

:mad: Things like this is why I joined "Lifelock.com" and it has paid off for us!

Any financial problems, I lose my security-clearances (and my job) till I prove I'm not at fault:(

[Bearpaw]

Bearpaw, I have to offer my heartfelt condolences. As another Bearpaw, I followed your trailjournal with interest and hope. Just remember, there is always next year, and if nothing else, welcome to the world of section-hiking!

Best of luck in all your future trail endeavors,

Bearpaw GAME '99

[Bearpaw88]

Bearpaw, I have to offer my heartfelt condolences. As another Bearpaw, I followed your trailjournal with interest and hope. Just remember, there is always next year, and if nothing else, welcome to the world of section-hiking!

Best of luck in all your future trail endeavors,

Bearpaw GAME '99


Thanks, I will embrace the world of section hiking next year. If we get it taken care of early maybe we'll be out again this year. Who knows maybe another attempt at a thru-hike in the future. Next time though I will not give shady buisnesses a card. Cash Olny!
Also if you were following our journal I will be putting up pictures today and filling in more trail journal entries soon.

Bearpaw

[Bearpaw88]

I can't see how someone cleaning out someone else's bank account could be claimed as a "clerical error".

Having been a victim of something similiar, I empathize with your situation, however, I am not afraid of any company coming after me for libel.

I would love to slam the buisness online so no one goes to it, and from what we are finding out there is no way for them to sue us anyway. I would put it past the S.O.B. to try though.

I will talk to Windjammer, since it was his account, and will reveal the name online if he's alright with it. From my former post it is not hard to figure out who it is if you have been to Erwin, TN.

Bearpaw

[max patch]

Sound like you were using a -- as Clark Howard calls em -- a piece of trash fake visa or mastercard debit card.

Use cash. Or credit.

[Bearpaw88]

Sound like you were using a -- as Clark Howard calls em -- a piece of trash fake visa or mastercard debit card.

Use cash. Or credit.


yup we used debit... big mistake

[Blissful]

Wow, really sorry to hear this...

[max patch]

Really horrible news, I do hope you are able to pick up where you left off next year. Or even better, get your money back asap and finish up this year.

When all is resolved I hope you are able to publicize the business. While many on this site know -- or at least suspect -- who you are talking about the great majority of AT hikers haven't even heard of this site.

Good luck.

[Yahtzee]

Not sure how cleaning out someone's account to the penny could be a clerical error.

However, I am a bit suspect that someone would be so stupid as to do such a thing. I have heard firsthand of a certain provider in Erwin cleaning out someone's drop box and reselling the contents, but that is a larceny that would be difficult to prove. Your unfortunate event is so easy to trace back to its source I have to wonder if there isn't something else going on. Most complaints about providers in Erwin deal with tempermant; this would be outright criminal and downright stupid.

Please keep us posted and may Windjammer have all the patience in the world dealing with the red tape involved in regaining his money.

[Scrollner]

I would love to know the business, as I'm planning a section this fall in that area, and was planning on a zero in Erwin.

[Bearpaw88]

Not sure how cleaning out someone's account to the penny could be a clerical error.

However, I am a bit suspect that someone would be so stupid as to do such a thing. I have heard firsthand of a certain provider in Erwin cleaning out someone's drop box and reselling the contents, but that is a larceny that would be difficult to prove. Your unfortunate event is so easy to trace back to its source I have to wonder if there isn't something else going on. Most complaints about providers in Erwin deal with tempermant; this would be outright criminal and downright stupid.

They didn't clean us out to the penny. We had enough left for bus tickets home, a room for a night, and one meal. I don't understand how it was a clerical error, but I don't know why in the world they would have done it and possibly thought they'd get away with it. It was so much money anyone would have noticed it gone from there account. Who knows??

[10-K]

It has to be a mistake. Not a pleasant one for anyone and man I feel for you guys but I can't believe that it was a premeditated crime. (Probably feels like one though...)

I'll just say it - that would be about the most suicidal thing ***** ****** could do for his business. On top of being downright stupid, it doesn't make any kind of sense at all.

My guess is that it was a glitch in one of the batches they submitted electronically - just a theory.

[bigcranky]

My hiking partner lost his visa debit card and had eight hundred bucks gone from his account. Merchants are supposed to ask for ID when you use the card, but, well, many don't. I prefer either a real ATM card (requires a PIN) or a real credit card. But that's just me.

[Jack Tarlin]

Read Post#6 above. Kinda hard for a manual credit machine to cause an electronic glitch. :rolleyes:

Would also be curious s to whether or not the improper charge against their account was made the day they were there or the day they left, or a few days later. Or if it were made MANY days later. If so, it's kinda hard to believe this was an accident.

However, I think we should perhaps withold any judgment on this til we hear more from the folks telling the story, assuming they wish to share the details.

The possibility exists that this was a horrible accident.

The possibility further exists that this was NOT an accident, but this doesn'tnecessarily mean that the folks running the business were responsible or knew about it. Businesses have bad employees sometimes, and sometimes stuff happens that owners or managers have no way of knowing about.

In any case, I hope we hear more bout this, and how the problem iis resolved. Til then, we might want to be a bit circumspect with acccusations or denuciations that may prove unfair or even groundless.

[Lone Wolf]

Read Post#6 above. Kinda hard for a manual credit machine to cause an electronic glitch. :rolleyes:

Would also be curious s to whether or not the improper charge against their account was made the day they were there or the day they left, or a few days later. Or if it were made MANY days later. If so, it's kinda hard to believe this was an accident.

However, I think we should perhaps withold any judgment on this til we hear more from the folks telling the story, assuming they wish to share the details.

The possibility exists that this was a horrible accident.

The possibility further exists that this was NOT an accident, but this doesn'tnecessarily mean that the folks running the business were responsible or knew about it. Businesses have bad employees sometimes, and sometimes stuff happens that owners or managers have no way of knowing about.

In any case, I hope we hear more bout this, and how the problem iis resolved. Til then, we might want to be a bit circumspect with acccusations or denuciations that may prove unfair or even groundless.

ah, bullshat. they got ripped off

[Jack Tarlin]

Probably. But we don't know that yet.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Hmmm... has this happened at this particular business before? Something that was said earlier kind of gave me the idea it has.

[Bearpaw88]

Read Post#6 above. Kinda hard for a manual credit machine to cause an electronic glitch. :rolleyes:

Would also be curious s to whether or not the improper charge against their account was made the day they were there or the day they left, or a few days later. Or if it were made MANY days later. If so, it's kinda hard to believe this was an accident.

However, I think we should perhaps withold any judgment on this til we hear more from the folks telling the story, assuming they wish to share the details.

The possibility exists that this was a horrible accident.

The possibility further exists that this was NOT an accident, but this doesn'tnecessarily mean that the folks running the business were responsible or knew about it. Businesses have bad employees sometimes, and sometimes stuff happens that owners or managers have no way of knowing about.

In any case, I hope we hear more bout this, and how the problem iis resolved. Til then, we might want to be a bit circumspect with acccusations or denuciations that may prove unfair or even groundless.

As to the details- the money was removed 2 months after we were there. It seems difficult for it to have been a mistake, but officially it was a clerical error. An error that will hopefully never happen to anyone else.

The situation is being resolved by the return of our money in the next month or so. Because this is a business law states that if they return the money no legal recourse can be had unless it can be proven not to have been an error. However, if this happens often at the same place they may lose there Visa/Mastercard privileges.

I have gotten several PM's regarding the name of the business so to remove further suspense yes it was Uncle Johnny's.

[NICKTHEGREEK]

Maybe 25 years ago I got a call from Amex asking if I had just ordered $12,000.00 worth of flowers from a florist in Philly. NO, was my emphatic answer. The last I had used my card was at a restaurant in nearby Doylestown who apparently had an employee who ran a few extras through the machine or kept carbons for later distribution. No charges, no liability, happy and relieved Nick.
I've had my green amex since 72 and don't ever leave home without it.

[10-K]

In any case, I hope we hear more bout this, and how the problem iis resolved. Til then, we might want to be a bit circumspect with acccusations or denuciations that may prove unfair or even groundless.

Sounds like a sane approach.

[Alligator]

There's a bit of information missing here before anyone rushes to judgement. We are only hearing half of one side of the problem.

What charges did the customer incur at the establishment? For how much exactly?

When did the charges occur?

Was the customer billed once or twice?

The erroneous charge, how much was it exactly?

When was the erroneous charge billed?

When you say manual machine, are we talking the kind where they imprint your card? These used to be called in, sometimes to an operator and sometimes to a machine. The glitch could have happened there.

Does the proprietor have any receipt reflecting the erroneous charge. Maybe a decimal point was off or someone keyed in an extra digit. Instead of $99.75, someone keyed $997.50.

I totally understand being pissed off, I had a charge placed on my own debit account that was not mine and it took a long time to fix too. And maybe it is readily evident that the proprietor tried to rip you off, but perhaps there was a glitch.


**OK, my post is a little late in, I see you are answering some of the above.

[Skidsteer]

I have gotten several PM's regarding the name of the business so to remove further suspense yes it was Uncle Johnny's.

Take it easy everybody.

Wait for the entire story to unfold before passing judgement. :cool:

[Bearpaw88]

There's a bit of information missing here before anyone rushes to judgement. We are only hearing half of one side of the problem.

What charges did the customer incur at the establishment? For how much exactly?

When did the charges occur?

Was the customer billed once or twice?

The erroneous charge, how much was it exactly?

When was the erroneous charge billed?

When you say manual machine, are we talking the kind where they imprint your card? These used to be called in, sometimes to an operator and sometimes to a machine. The glitch could have happened there.

Does the proprietor have any receipt reflecting the erroneous charge. Maybe a decimal point was off or someone keyed in an extra digit. Instead of $99.75, someone keyed $997.50.

I totally understand being pissed off, I had a charge placed on my own debit account that was not mine and it took a long time to fix too. And maybe it is readily evident that the proprietor tried to rip you off, but perhaps there was a glitch.

Wow, listen the fraud department has already been in contact with the them and they have ADMITTED it was a mistake. Purposeful or no I'll never know. How much we spent 2 months ago Does Not Matter. What does matter is that glitch or no glitch we are home. Of coarse I am pissed off. I don't care about the fine details of a manual machine.

[Jack Tarlin]

Charges appearing two months AFTER these folks visited this establishment would, unfortunately, indicate that this was not an accident, Alligator.

If a Hanover restaurant tried to charge me for an expensive meal two months after I dined there, and did so when I hadn't been within hundreds of miles of Hanover for all that time.....well, sorry, but I'd have to wonder.

And Alligator, so would you.

[MOWGLI]

Take it easy everybody.

Wait for the entire story to unfold before passing judgement. :cool:


Wow, listen the fraud department has already been in contact with the them and they have ADMITTED it was a mistake. Purposeful or no I'll never know. How much we spent 2 months ago Does Not Matter. What does matter is that glitch or no glitch we are home. Of coarse I am pissed off. I don't care about the fine details of a manual machine.

Sounds like this thread should be locked down. It's only going to get ugly from here.

[Jack Tarlin]

Um, Mowgli, it got ugly when these kids had their trip ended.

They have every right to discuss it, so do other people, and neither Mowgli or anyone else has the right to muzzle the discussion.

[yappy]

Yuck is all i have to say. Sorry for what happened to you. I would be bent too. I never felt that comfortable at that place.... kinda like rainbow springs. I felt pushed to spend money there.

[Patchfoot]

I've worked with plenty of businesses that used a variety of credit card methods (including installing and setting them up) and it seems pretty unlikely, though not impossible, for it to be clerical error. Almost always this sort of problem is the result of a sketchy employee (this used to happen fairly often at chain restaurants in my hometown).

It does seem a bit crap that they got their lives thrown about because of this and the business gets to drag its feet returning the money. If I'm late on a bill its not like I say "clerical error" got it stuck under the couch so I'm not gonna pay the late fee. I wish you guys would at least get some extra money for every day you wait to get your money back, but unfortunately these things don't work both ways.

[Alligator]

I would wonder Jack, but it's nice to have all the facts before passing judgement. Sure it sounds totally suspicious but when what you say is affecting someone's livelihood as this might it would be good to have the complete story.

I'm sorry your hike ended Bearpaw88 truly. But there does exist the possibility that it was a mistake. You don't have to answer any questions, but they are legitimate questions that could help to understand whether this was intentional or not.

[Alligator]

Charges appearing two months AFTER these folks visited this establishment would, unfortunately, indicate that this was not an accident, Alligator.

If a Hanover restaurant tried to charge me for an expensive meal two months after I dined there, and did so when I hadn't been within hundreds of miles of Hanover for all that time.....well, sorry, but I'd have to wonder.

And Alligator, so would you.Jack, I do my bills electronically, I have for probably ten years. My receipts and when the charges hit my account rarely match in time span. Sometimes going fairly long. Yearly, I have 2-4 charges that I know I have made that never get on my account. I just wipe them. So, yeah to me it is possible for a charge to have been delayed and perhaps entered erroneously. Extremely unlikely given that it would need to be a double error. I think businesses have up to 90 days to charge your account but I don't know for sure. It probably varies some by state.

[Jack Tarlin]

Alligator:

I agree with you about being fair. (Please have a look at my post #22, above, in which I urged exactly that sentiment).

It might be useful if someone forwarded this thread to the business in question or notified them about it, in case they wish to respond to it, or perhaps present information that hasn't been discussed.

And while your comment about how businesses run their charges is instructive, I must say, in 13 years on the Trail, I can't recall one trailside business that posted its bills two months after rendering a service or making a sale. If there's a hiker business out there that bills people 60 or 90 days after their visit, well, I've never heard of it. :rolleyes:

[Bearpaw88]

The banks telling us not to talk to him directly... who knows why. Anyway I have now posted all the details I am aware of about this situation. I am just trying to deal with being home early. It is hard, but I got to vent on my trail journal and talk about my favorite experiences. I'll post some of it for non trail journal readers.

"...One thing that surprises me about my section hike is that some of the most miserable days are my favorite trail days. This may say more about my character than the trail. For instance, on March 4th we had our first bad weather experience. It rained pretty much all day. The wind picked up and the temperature dropped as the day went on. At one point I found my self totally alone on a ridge, lightning was pounding near me, the trees shook and swayed with fury, and the trail was a waterfall. I was alone and scared. Sheer misery kept me hiking forward and I hoped when I got to the shelter I could dry off and get warm. When we did get to the shelter, Woods Hole Shelter, The wind was whipping about 40 mph and even the shelter didn't keep the cold out and we tented anyway. After 12 miles on day 4 I was shivering and emotionally numb the rest of the night.
This sounds pretty miserable, the ongoing joke for the rest of the trail was at least it is not March 4th, but I almost guiltily admit it was one of my favorite days. Some of the hardest days for me to get through were the "easy" days. Who wouldn't want to hike 14 miles on a sunny 70 degree day on easy terrain? On these days I found myself struggling to stay focused and to move forward. On these days I wanted an ipod or a steak dinner. On these days I felt unchallenged and unmotivated. In truth these days were the most challenging but mentally not physically. I got through it by being silly, joking with others, and really trying to pay attention to the beauty around me.
Another thing about the trail I enjoyed was tenting. We usually made a point to find nice campsites and stay away from shelters. My most memorable nights on the trail are these nights when we stayed at little know campsites on or off the trail. Sometimes we were told about certain spots by veteran hikers. Other times we scouted for them on our own. The thing I hated about shelter the most were all the people bitching about how they hated shelters while they stayed at the shelters. It's just annoying, nothing personal.
Anyway before this entry becomes to long to hold the ADD reader I will end it."

[Alligator]

So when bills are posted is a common trail discussion? I'll bring my bank statement next weekend.:D

[Jack Tarlin]

Hope to see you guys back out before too long.

First round is on me.

And no pin number required. :D

[Bearpaw88]

Hope to see you guys back out before too long.

First round is on me.

And no pin number required. :D

I am having several rounds right now...

maybe I shouldn't drink and post:)

[Jack Tarlin]

No Gator, it's not a matter for public discussion. It's just that I know dozens of folks who run Trailside or Trail-related businesses, and this includes quite a few hostels. And I've worked at, or even helped run some of these places. I assure you none of them wait two or three months to submit their bills, mainly because none of them have the leisure to do so.

[Just Jack]

Sorry to hear about this problem that you are having to deal with. I got to know you guys a little bit in Damascus and at Hard Core. Life, like the AT is a lot of ups and downs. Hopefully the AT has taught you how to stay positive to the point that you can get this resolved quickly and get right back on the trail. Hope to see you up the trail.

[Alligator]

That doesn't mean that a bill couldn't have been misplaced and submitted later. Especially for places not up to megastore electronic bookkeeping.

[Bearpaw88]

Sorry to hear about this problem that you are having to deal with. I got to know you guys a little bit in Damascus and at Hard Core. Life, like the AT is a lot of ups and downs. Hopefully the AT has taught you how to stay positive to the point that you can get this resolved quickly and get right back on the trail. Hope to see you up the trail.

Thanks. I am not sure I'll be back on this year but I will be back starting with trail days next year. I'll keep myself busy hiking the Ice Age Trail and doing trail maintenance on my segment of the trail.

[Bearpaw88]

That doesn't mean that a bill couldn't have been misplaced and submitted later. Especially for places not up to megastore electronic bookkeeping.

To dispel any hint this transaction may have been a missed bill from when we were there. The charges were for boat rentals. We were not boating.

[Alligator]

To dispel any hint this transaction may have been a missed bill from when we were there. The charges were for boat rentals. We were not boating.Now we're getting somewhere. Was there a receipt produced on UJ's part? Did he provide any type of explanation as to how the charges got on your card?

[rickb]

The banks telling us not to talk to him directly... who knows why.

No question that it wasn't the bank's fault then?

When talking to someone on the phone about clerical errors, sometimes understanding a low level employee is harder than one would think.

Just a thought.

I would be sure to stay on top of the bank's plan regarding referrals to law enforcement on this, and also ask them what they think of you perusing civil action against the merchant in a case like this.

Even if that's not your thing, their answers could be interesting.

Sorry you are living this.

[Alligator]

I had something similar happen to me, but it was far less damaging. A florist billed me for the flowers I ordered plus someone else's. Of course I talked to the florist first and she reversed the charges, but it got hung up by her bank. My bank made me fill out a form, after waiting X days(I think it was 30 days). I had to answer a number of questions regarding the transaction, what did I buy, when did I speak to the merchant, yada yada yada. It too was a debit card. As was mentioned, these are hard to get things fixed on. I used to dismiss that bit, about the problems with refunds on debit cards. You have more rights with a credit card in these situations. Don't put it off when you have a problem either, your liability goes up after a certain time period.

[Bulldawg]

Hmmm, I am thinking this business could be held liable in a civil court for ruining these guys chance of a lifetime to hike the AT. I don't know what it would be worth in a civil court. Some people say a completed thru hike is priceless. Do you guys wanns own a place in Erwin??

[Odd Thomas]

We can prove we were not in Erwin, TN when the charges were made. But there is no way to prove it wasn't a clerical error. However, the place has a manual credit machine and unlesss they saved our number purposfully. I do not see how it could have been a clerical error.

Even if it were a clerical error, it's an incredibly inconvenient one and they were negligent. People should know about that anyway.

[Lone Wolf]

Hmmm, I am thinking this business could be held liable in a civil court for ruining these guys chance of a lifetime to hike the AT. I don't know what it would be worth in a civil court. Some people say a completed thru hike is priceless. Do you guys wanns own a place in Erwin??

i'm thinkin' Judge Judy

[Tin Man]

No disrespect intended, but has this been coroborated? Right now it sounds like hearsay evidence - not meaning there is no real evidence, but we have heard the whole story from one person. I am not doubting the story as much as pointing out that slamming a business based on a single posters story could be problematic. No?

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

While I don't know if punitive damages (for the loss of the trip) would apply because the vendor is saying that no intent to harm was present and it would be hard to prove otherwise, I would think actual damages would be recoverable in a civil trial (the cost of the trip home, any lodging made necessary by the interruption of the trip, food while traveling, legal fees and possibly compensation for the time involved in straightening this out involved).

[Jack Tarlin]

FD: I don't think the damages you just listed are legally recoverable, tho in the light of ADMITTED error on the part of the business, seems to me the decent thing to do would be to pay these damages.

Do I expect this to happen? Um, no, I don't.

[10-K]

No disrespect intended, but has this been coroborated? Right now it sounds like hearsay evidence - not meaning there is no real evidence, but we have heard the whole story from one person. I am not doubting the story as much as pointing out that slamming a business based on a single posters story could be problematic. No?

This is the internet man - shoot first, ask questions later. ;)

Seriously, the least stressful way to deal with this is to assume that it was an accident until proven otherwise. At this point, the damage is done. Why compound it further by keeping everything on high-boil.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Perhaps such damages are not legally recoverable in NH, but I believe they are in TN.

BTW, if it can be proven that the card info was retained and reused knowingly: Tennessee code annotated

39-14-118. Illegal possession or fraudulent use of credit or debit card. —

(a) A person commits the crime of illegal possession of a credit or debit card who, knowing the person does not have the consent of the owner or issuer, takes, exercises control over or otherwise uses that card or information from that card.

(b) A person commits the crime of fraudulent use of a credit or debit card who uses, or allows to be used, a credit or debit card or information from such card, for the purpose of obtaining property, credit, services or anything else of value with knowledge that:

(1) The card is forged or stolen;
(2) The card has been revoked or cancelled;
(3) The card has expired and the person uses the card with fraudulent intent; or
(4) For any other reason the use of the card is unauthorized by either the issuer or the person to whom the credit or debit card is issued.
(c)
(1) Fraudulent use of a credit or debit card is punishable as theft pursuant to § 39-14-105 (see below) depending on the amount of property, credit, goods or services obtained.
(2) If no property, credit, goods, or services are actually received or obtained, illegal possession or fraudulent use of a credit card is a Class B misdemeanor.
[Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 1.]
=================================================

39-14-105. Grading of theft. —

Theft of property or services is:

(1) A Class A misdemeanor if the value of the property or services obtained is five hundred dollars ($500) or less;
(2) A Class E felony if the value of the property or services obtained is more than five hundred dollars ($500) but less than one thousand dollars ($1,000);
(3) A Class D felony if the value of the property or services obtained is one thousand dollars ($1,000) or more but less than ten thousand dollars ($10,000);
(4) A Class C felony if the value of the property or services obtained is ten thousand dollars ($10,000) or more but less than sixty thousand dollars ($60,000); and
(5) A Class B felony if the value of the property or services obtained is sixty thousand dollars ($60,000) or more.

[Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 1.]

[Moe]

Regardless of whether this was blatent fraud, or merely an error, I have written down to use cash at Uncle Johnny's if I make it there on my thru.


Thank you for the info.

[Jack Tarlin]

That's all well and good, FD, but proving that this wasn't an accident may well prove impossible. The charges billed against this card were absolutely done without the knowledge or permission of the card's owner, but that's a far cry from proving that the charges were billed intentionally and with an intent to defraud.

That being said, it doesn't really matter. Nor does it matter if this was were the fault of a "rogue employee." Ultimately it's a matter of trust, and the business is fully responsible. The right thing for them to do, especially since they've admitted that they were responsible for the problem, is for them to immediately contact these kids, to find out what this abbreviation in their trip cost them (travel expenses, lodging, food, etc.), and to then re-imburse them in full, including the costs of their return to the Trail, if that's what they want to do.

That'd be the decent and proper thing to do, and would go a long way to fix this.

It'll be curious to see what actually happens.

[Red Hat]

This whole thing worries me as I use both a debit card and cash on my hikes. I usually get cash at the PO to pay for everything but motels and some restaurants. Should I be concerned?

[Jack Tarlin]

I wouldn't be overly concerned.

This happens extremely rarely, in fact I can't recall any similar story involving a Trailside business or service provider.

And this is hopefully a one-time incident.

The vast majority of Trailside businesses, Red Hat, are small businesses run by great people. Bad businesses tend to get shunned by hikers, the word of mouth poisons them; and really bad businesses simply close their doors eventually.

So no, this isn't something you need to be worried about.

[IceAge]

Sorry to hear about this BP and WJ, I was living vicariously through your trailjournal.

If you get out on the Ice Age trail, make sure to post a trip report in the new IAT forum.

[Lone Wolf]

Bad businesses tend to get shunned by hikers, the word of mouth poisons them; and really bad businesses simply close their doors eventually.

So no, this isn't something you need to be worried about.

Uncle Johnny's Hiker Hostel has been slammed for years but that business flourishes

[Jack Tarlin]

Well, Janet's being closed this year sure didn't hurt.

Just as this present affair sure won't help. :rolleyes:

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Uncle Johnny's Hiker Hostel has been slammed for years but that business flourishesPerhaps because it has no competition now and is in an area where hikers need to resupply. It also attracts the watersports crowd where it receives a more favorable rating for some reason.

[deeddawg]

Should I be concerned?

Here's the thing. With a debit card, if something should happen the money is gone out of your account and you have to chase after it to get it back. You could be SOL until the banks get around to getting it straightened out.

With a credit card, you get the bill and can dispute the erroneous charges. Until that is resolved you do not have to pay the amount. Nothing gone from your bank account without your control. (assume you don't do something like set up automatic payments).

[Yahtzee]

Uncle Johnny's Hiker Hostel has been slammed for years but that business flourishes


Location, location, location.

[Lone Wolf]

Location, location, location.

yup. fo sho.

[Jack Tarlin]

Moral of story:

*Use credit card instead of debit whenever possible.
*Use cash when possible and cut down on credit card use.
*Don't blindly pay your bills or have someone else pay them.
Make sure you look at them first.

[IceAge]

I was in Erwin TN back in 02 at the Nolichucky Gorge (I think?) campground, is that the same place or different? My mind is weak

[MOWGLI]

Different

[Lone Wolf]

I was in Erwin TN back in 02 at the Nolichucky Gorge (I think?) campground, is that the same place or different? My mind is weak

different place but it's the best place. hostels suck in my opinion. wide open tenting on the river is much better

[IceAge]

Thanks, I thought so!

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Have to agree with LW - Nolichucky River Gorge Campground (http://www.angelfire.com/tn/nolichucky/)is the best place to stay in Erwin these days - and it has a hostel - $11 a nite.

[kanga]

is this the same thing as the noc?

[Lone Wolf]

is this the same thing as the noc?

no it;s not

[Bearpaw88]

Sorry to hear about this BP and WJ, I was living vicariously through your trailjournal.

If you get out on the Ice Age trail, make sure to post a trip report in the new IAT forum.

Thanks for following the hike. What new IAT forum? On whiteblaze or another website?
:banana

[Bearpaw88]

Have to agree with LW - Nolichucky River Gorge Campground (http://www.angelfire.com/tn/nolichucky/)is the best place to stay in Erwin these days - and it has a hostel - $11 a nite.

The best place to stay in Erwin is about 1 1/4 mile north on the AT after the railroad tracks. You are 5 walking minutes from beautiful views on the Nolichucky River and the Campground you mentioned.

[IceAge]

Thanks for following the hike. What new IAT forum? On whiteblaze or another website?
:banana

Here! On WB in the "Other Long Trails' section, it's brand-spankin-new!

[Bearpaw88]

If there is anyone else on WB that had to come home early for reasons concerning money fraud or similar. Lemme know. What did you do? How did you feel leaving the trail, and did you go back? I have to say I do not like being in an apartment again and am thinking of hitching back to the trail:D

[corialice81]

If you get your money back in a month could you do a flip flop? Start at Katahdin and head south?

[Bearpaw88]

If you get your money back in a month could you do a flip flop? Start at Katahdin and head south?

I am not sure what to do. Reasonably I think I should save money and come back next year. Plus I would really like to go NOBO. Emotionally I just want to drop everything and come back.

[Monkeywrench]

no it;s not

it's not noc? :D

[kanga]

it's not noc? :D
snot?:D

[Scrollner]

I don't think there has the employee theft angle has been discussed much. I own several quick service restaurants, and we had a case last year where an employee was ripping off credit & debit card customers in our drive-thru. to the tune of almost 10K over three months. Basically, she would ring through a credit card through for not only that customer, but 2 or 3 cars after. then when the next cars came, she would collect the money and pocket it. This only worked in the drive-thru since the customer has to hand thier card over to the cashier to use it. She was caught when we had a number of customers dispute charges, always on her register. What surprised me, was the large number of people who were double-charged and did not realize it until we contacted them. Not only did this cost my business what was stolen, (which we will allegedly get back from the thief through a restitution agreement with the courts) but it cost me the goodwill of some of my customers, which will be even more difficult to recoup.

[Jack Tarlin]

I agree with you.

There is indeed the possibility of a "rogue employee", and stuff could have gone on that neither the management or the ownership of this place knew about.

I believe I was the first person on this thread to mention this as a possibility.

That being said, the place has acknowledged responsibility for what happened. They should ask these kids what it cost to abort their trip (i.e. travel, food, lodging expenses; unplanned for expenses when they arrived home suddenly, etc.), and they should immediately offer to re-imburse them for all of these expenses, including any and all costs involved in returning to the Trail, either this year or next.

This is what any decent business would do, at least if they were truly innocent in the affair, if they truly regretted it, and were remotely interested in maintaining a good name. Merely letting the bank take care of this months later by cutting these guys a check when hiker season is pretty much over doesn't seem quite right. This mess-up cost these guys a lot, and it's not merely the bank that should be setting things right.

[Bearpaw88]

That would be wonderful. I doubt they will do that, but who knows what will happen.

[Jack Tarlin]

It would be wonderful if they did this.

Have you asked them? :-?

[Bearpaw88]

The bank said not to contact them something with the fraud laws...but it sounds like a reasonable thing to do. I'll look into it. WJ is 100 miles away he is dealing with the bank. When I get my phone turned back on we'll figure it out.

[Jack Tarlin]

Seems pretty simple to me.

When you admit that someone has been wronged, and when it's clear that you or someone that works for you is responsible, then you work with the offended parties in order to make things right.

This ain't rocket science.

Let us know what happens.

[Bearpaw88]

We'll let everyone know how it turns out. I am pretty isolated in my apartment right now maybe it has been taken care of already and I don't know yet. I haven't spoken directly to anyone in days.

[Scrollner]

Seems pretty simple to me.

When you admit that someone has been wronged, and when it's clear that you or someone that works for you is responsible, then you work with the offended parties in order to make things right.



That's what I ended up doing in my situation, trying to make it right with my customers, including paying back thier overcharges out of my own pocket when it was appropriate, and giving out voucher cards for a free meal every week for 6 months to anyone affected. In the long run it was money well spent to regain the trust of my customers.

[rickb]

Basically, she would ring through a credit card through for not only that customer, but 2 or 3 cars after. then when the next cars came, she would collect the money and pocket it.

Very interesting. Sounds like this was just a single boat rental charge. Probably a big one, if it could have such an impact. Unless there are other people out there, this seems like a different deal.

[Bearpaw88]

Very interesting. Sounds like this was just a single boat rental charge. Probably a big one, if it could have such an impact. Unless there are other people out there, this seems like a different deal.

It must have been multiple I think for it to have come to so much

[rickb]

How did it show up on your bill?

[Bearpaw88]

How did it show up on your bill?

It didn't show up on any bill. WJ checked the balance one day two days later he checked it again and most of our money was gone. He called the bank and reported it to the fraud department. When we called back they told us the details about Uncle Johnny's and after having talked to them we found it it was a mistake (no kidding) and that the money was taken out for boat rentals.

[Bearpaw88]

thats it I am moving near the trail. I have been home 4 days and 'am becoming a whiteblaze addict

[Jack Tarlin]

What are you guys looking to do?

I could probably get you work in Hanover NH tomorrow. :rolleyes:

[4eyedbuzzard]

thats it I am moving near the trail. I have been home 4 days and 'am becoming a whiteblaze addict

Seek professional help before it's too late.

[Bearpaw88]

I haven't talk to WJ much but I am going nuts. What kind of work??? I'd love to be NH:)

[Bearpaw88]

Seek professional help before it's too late.

No kidding is there a 12 step AT recovery group?:D

[4eyedbuzzard]

No kidding is there a 12 step AT recovery group?:D


Nah. It's a 5 million step recovery program, but you knew that already. :D

[Bearpaw88]

Maybe I'll thru-hike next year instead of starting where I left off?

[bfitz]

Seems pretty simple to me.

When you admit that someone has been wronged, and when it's clear that you or someone that works for you is responsible, then you work with the offended parties in order to make things right.

This ain't rocket science.

Let us know what happens.
Most people would be falling over themselves in embarrassment and doing everything in their power to correct the situation and apologize. I can only imagine what kind of person wouldn't immediately make every effort to reimburse as soon as the bank made them aware of the problem. Regardless of how it occurred. I'm personally shocked. But not really surprised.

[Jack Tarlin]

That's just it, bfitz.

In all the posts on this, I haven't heard ONE person express any surprise and amazement over the geographic location of this problem.

This is kind of telling

As to your contention that most folks in this situation would be falling all over themselves trying to set things right, well that's perfectly true. Most folks would.

And the fact that it hasn't happened yet.....well nobody's expressed surprise and amazement over THAT, either. :rolleyes:

[kayak karl]

No kidding is there a 12 step AT recovery group?:D
you don't recover. you give in. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=34923&highlight=step+program

[The Old Fhart]

Bearpaw88, I only know what you have presented here about your problem but I'll make a suggestion. The business involved appears to be dragging this out and the bank has their own interest at heart, not necessarily yours. It might pay to get some legal advice about what you should do. Quite often the first visit to a lawyer is free and it might be a wise idea for you to have someone looking out for your interests who knows the law.

I know in some cases involving fraud there are treble damages allowed, depending on the State and other conditions, but I don't know about a situation like this.

Maybe The Weasel could shed some light on this. (I can't believe I just said that!);)

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually, he'd be a very good person to offer some perspective on this, and O.F.'s suggestion to consult an attorney is an excellent one.

[Red Hat]

Nah. It's a 5 million step recovery program, but you knew that already. :D

But I've heard that the 5 million step "recovery" may just make it worse...

[10-K]

If Uncle Johnny's has acknowledged that this is a clerical error on their part why don't they just issue a credit to the card and put the money back.

That they've admitted it was an error and still haven't refunded the charge is what I do not understand.

[Alligator]

If he made the chargeback, there's a certain amount of time the bank has by law to give the refund. That was the problem I had.

[Bearpaw88]

Thats exactly it, they have a legal window of time to return it. Wj is talking with an attorney on Monday I believe.

[The Weasel]

Thats exactly it, they have a legal window of time to return it. Wj is talking with an attorney on Monday I believe.

That's the best move. The attorney should be licensed in North Carolina, if anyone is considering filing a lawsuit. Banks must correct debit card problems, but that is harder than for credit cards.

TW

[MOWGLI]

The attorney should be licensed in North Carolina, if anyone is considering filing a lawsuit. Banks must correct debit card problems, but that is harder than for credit cards.

TW

The business is in Tennessee. Sure you got that right?

[The Weasel]

Bearpaw88, I only know what you have presented here about your problem but I'll make a suggestion. The business involved appears to be dragging this out and the bank has their own interest at heart, not necessarily yours. It might pay to get some legal advice about what you should do. Quite often the first visit to a lawyer is free and it might be a wise idea for you to have someone looking out for your interests who knows the law.

I know in some cases involving fraud there are treble damages allowed, depending on the State and other conditions, but I don't know about a situation like this.

Maybe The Weasel could shed some light on this. (I can't believe I just said that!);)

Why is that hard to believe, Pfart? I've never refrained from willing help here, or elsewhere. Thanks for being offensive.

With regard to the bank, banks view debit cards differently than credit cards, since debit charges are more similar to a check. The bank will work hard to assist a customer, but they have to perform the same kind of investigation that they would for a forged check. This can sometimes lead to the involvement of law enforcement authorities. If your bank record is good, sometimes banks will credit the amount to your account while they investigate. It works best to have a specific bank manager/customer service representative by name following it for you. A local attorney is generally not necessary, until the bank declines to credit your account.

If a business' employee charges a debit card knowingly for improper reasons, that leaves the employee liable to the injured person and, if the employer was not reasonably careful in the procedures governing the card process, the employer may be liable for negligence as well. While honest errors don't excuse the action, absent negligence there is little basis for a suit unless the employer intentionally 'stole' the money. Damages recoverable can not only include the lost amount (even if later credited back) but other "consequential" damages, which might include some amount for the emotional distress resulting from being forced off the trail, if that was proximately caused by the event. State law differs on such things, so an attorney in NC is essential to determine one's rights.

TW

[The Weasel]

The business is in Tennessee. Sure you got that right?

Ah. Missed that. Same advice, but an attorney in TN instead. I would look for someone in Johnson City, then, which has a reasonably large number of attorneys. As Pfart said, most will discuss a case (includingg over the phone) for free for the first half hour or so.

TW

[10-K]

If he made the chargeback, there's a certain amount of time the bank has by law to give the refund. That was the problem I had.

If UJ acknowledged the error they could refund the money and tell Bearpaw and Windjammer that they've already did all they could do - how quickly the money got back on the card at that point would be on the bank - not UJ.

If I'm reading this right the holdup is because UJ is dragging his feet about issuing the credit. How he could acknowledge the error and refuse to immediately credit the money back to the card is what I don't understand.

Something is missing in this picture.

[bfitz]

Man, I think nothing could be more poetically just than to see a successful lawsuit mounted in this case. I don't know what kind of evidence is admissible in such a case but there are plenty of anecdotes that would go to show a pattern on UJ's part that indicates this incident might have been caused intentionally, and intentional or not it certainly is still his legal responsibility to provide compensation. I'd say this goes beyond lawsuit territory and into regular police investigation territory. Are the police investigating this? I know UJ is connected down at the local precint, but surely the state police or fraud authorities or someone would also be involved in an investigation. If not we should probably form some sort of mob and go down there and demand justice.

[Alligator]

Easy with the torches there fellah:eek:.

10-K, I don't know if the charge was reversed by UJ, I didn't see whether Bearpaw88 said definitively one way or another. He definitely should have though by now, I agree. I was noting that even after he does that, the bank (his) has its own window to make the refund.

[Sly]

10-K, I don't know if the charge was reversed by UJ, I didn't see whether Bearpaw88 said definitively one way or another. He definitely should have though by now, I agree. I was noting that even after he does that, the bank (his) has its own window to make the refund.

It's my understanding anything run as debit needs to be refunded with cash (or check), whereas, credit can be refunded to the account. Most credit refunds only take a few days.

[Sly]

Now, to anyone who's been following along, should such establishments due to their multiple mistakes and/or shenanigans over the years be included in the ALDHA Companion?

[10-K]

It's my understanding anything run as debit needs to be refunded with cash (or check), whereas, credit can be refunded to the account. Most credit refunds only take a few days.

Let me reframe my post to incorporate this info....

If UJ admits that they made an error, why doesn't he immediately fix it by issuing a refund - whichever way is appropriate.

That's the part I don't get. Acknowledge the error - but refusing to fix it.

It doesn't make sense.

[Bearpaw88]

Easy with the torches there fellah:eek:.

10-K, I don't know if the charge was reversed by UJ, I didn't see whether Bearpaw88 said definitively one way or another. He definitely should have though by now, I agree. I was noting that even after he does that, the bank (his) has its own window to make the refund.

He will refund it in full but he has a legal window of I believe 3 weeks or more to do it in. He has not done so yet.

[10-K]

Easy with the torches there fellah:eek:.

10-K, I don't know if the charge was reversed by UJ, I didn't see whether Bearpaw88 said definitively one way or another. He definitely should have though by now, I agree. I was noting that even after he does that, the bank (his) has its own window to make the refund.

Right - and as soon as UJ issues a credit then he has done all he can do.

Or am I missing something? (actually, I think we're all missing something in this story..)

[Sly]

He will refund it in full but he has a legal window of I believe 3 weeks or more to do it in. He has not done so yet.

That's nonsense, an immediate refund is in order. Apparently, he's playing with your money. Let us know when you get it back.

[Bearpaw88]

Right - (actually, I think we're all missing something in this story..)

What do you think your missing exactly?? I have disclosed over the coarse of this thread everything I know, and everything that has happened. All we are missing any comment from UJ and I am not able to give that only he is.

[Alligator]

It's my understanding anything run as debit needs to be refunded with cash (or check), whereas, credit can be refunded to the account. Most credit refunds only take a few days.The situation I am most familiar with is my own, the out-of-state merchant charged it back to my debit card. I saw the form. I don't recall any specific distance transactions where I have had to have the refund sent by check. I'm not sure either.
He will refund it in full but he has a legal window of I believe 3 weeks or more to do it in. He has not done so yet.He definitely should have initiated the refund by now, after admitting error. If he hasn't charged it back, he should wire it or something damn near instantaneous:mad:.


Right - and as soon as UJ issues a credit then he has done all he can do.

Or am I missing something? (actually, I think we're all missing something in this story..)Weelll, in my case, I think the merchant should have hounded her bank after the charge back. All she ever did was send in the charge back. It was a complete screwup on her part, she should have gone a little further by finding out what was up with her bank. Keep working on it until it was right. I had to spend my own time filling out forms, because we ended up going the fraud route. It didn't show up when it should have. IMO, same thing should go for UJ.

[10-K]

What do you think your missing exactly?? I have disclosed over the coarse of this thread everything I know, and everything that has happened. All we are missing any comment from UJ and I am not able to give that only he is.

I'm just saying that there is not a complete sequence of events - there are a few gaps in the story. I'm not insinuating that you're not disclosing everything though I can see how you might read it that way.

So you guys haven't been in touch with Uncle Johnny's since the bank said not to contact them? See, I think based on what I know that in itself is a mistake.

[Lone Wolf]

I'm just saying that there is not a complete sequence of events - there are a few gaps in the story. I'm not insinuating that you're not disclosing everything though I can see how you might read it that way.

So you guys haven't been in touch with Uncle Johnny's since the bank said not to contact them? See, I think based on what I know that in itself is a mistake.

bottom line the sumbitch ripped them off. it ain't the first time and won't be the last

[The Weasel]

As an attorney, I'd like to give a few cautions here:

(1) First, to WJ and BP: An internet forum isn't the best place to discuss or argue about a problem like this. Your bank will give you honest answers (they are required to, by law, and highly regulated, so in cases like this they will probably do so) and to get the most information, try to deal with the manager or assistant manager of the branch your account is at. If you have information that suggests that the actual "charge" to your card was anything other than an accident, you can also contact the local police or the county prosecutor (Unicol County?), which will probably have a division for "Consumer Protection".

(2) Beyond that, it would be wise for pretty much everyone here - includine BP and WJ - to stop it with the "torches and pitchforks" thing. No one seems to have the full story here, and while some assumptions may be reasonable, some may be incorrect and very damaging. Even if a business is unloved for other legitimate reasons, it isn't fair to get carried away, and doing so here can even make it harder for BP and WJ to get the result they deserve.

(3) I reiterate that it would be useful to speak with an attorney. Even your local attorney (from elsewhere than TN) will know the general principles that apply to such situations, since the law is very similar in this area in different states, and she/he can also discuss with BP/WJ whether their losses (which may involve more than just the money) are significant enough to justify a lawsuit or even a small claims action.

Beyond that, I really strongly urge people to calm down. Unfortunately, things don't happen as quickly as people wish, but that may not be a bad thing. But much more discussion here can make things harder for the injured parties to get what they deserve.

The Weasel

[Tin Man]

bottom line the sumbitch ripped them off. it ain't the first time and won't be the last

Excuse me oh wise one. Weren't you a big supporter for adding UJ back to the various trail business lists? Didn't you say that crap was history and people needed to more forward? Or was that another business... or another Lone Wolf? :)

[Lone Wolf]

Excuse me oh wise one. Weren't you a big supporter for adding UJ back to the various trail business lists? Didn't you say that crap was history and people needed to more forward? Or was that another business... or another Lone Wolf? :)

yes i was. there were no bad reports coming out of there for awhile but i've been hearing a few lately. sounds like old tricks again. my main beef was ALDHAs playing politics and not listing him

[Tin Man]

yes i was. there were no bad reports coming out of there for awhile but i've been hearing a few lately. sounds like old tricks again. my main beef was ALDHAs playing politics and not listing him

Well, you would think after all the past issues, UJ would go out of their way to rectify any issues as quickly as possible. Stupid. I hope word gets out and people walk on by.

[Sly]

The situation I am most familiar with is my own, the out-of-state merchant charged it back to my debit card. I saw the form. I don't recall any specific distance transactions where I have had to have the refund sent by check. I'm not sure either. He definitely should have initiated the refund by now, after admitting error. If he hasn't charged it back, he should wire it or something damn near instantaneous:mad:.

Well, while working at the Home Depot, if a purchase was made with a debit card and a pin was entered, and later the product returned, we'd have to give cash back. There was no other way to refund. If using the same card as a credit card with a signiture, monies would be returned to the account.

[Sly]

my main beef was ALDHAs playing politics and not listing him

Well, do you think he should be listed now? The reason I ask is that I was asked by the present editor to take over next year. I'm not sure if I'd have the final decision, but I'd like to know how others feel, regardless if I actually take the duty or not.

[10-K]

Well, do you think he should be listed now? The reason I ask is that I was asked by the present editor to take over next year. I'm not sure if I'd have the final decision, but I'd like to know how others feel, regardless if I actually take the duty or not.

When you walk off the mountain UJ's is right there in your face, I don't think it matters whether he's listed or not. If he weren't in any of the guides/companions he'd still have plenty of business.

[Lone Wolf]

When you walk off the mountain UJ's is right there in your face, I don't think it matters whether he's listed or not. If he weren't in any of the guides/companions he'd still have plenty of business.

this is correct. plus the companion is only 1 of 3 guides and it's least desireable of the 3. my opinion

[Alligator]

Well, while working at the Home Depot, if a purchase was made with a debit card and a pin was entered, and later the product returned, we'd have to give cash back. There was no other way to refund. If using the same card as a credit card with a signiture, monies would be returned to the account.I see what you are saying. I was thinking of the times I used my VISA debit card over the phone or internet, so it was within the credit card system. The only one I could remember with certainty was the time I had a problem.

[Bearpaw88]

As an attorney, I'd like to give a few cautions here:

(1) First, to WJ and BP: An internet forum isn't the best place to discuss or argue about a problem like this. Your bank will give you honest answers (they are required to, by law, and highly regulated, so in cases like this they will probably do so) and to get the most information, try to deal with the manager or assistant manager of the branch your account is at. If you have information that suggests that the actual "charge" to your card was anything other than an accident, you can also contact the local police or the county prosecutor (Unicol County?), which will probably have a division for "Consumer Protection".

(2) Beyond that, it would be wise for pretty much everyone here - includine BP and WJ - to stop it with the "torches and pitchforks" thing. No one seems to have the full story here, and while some assumptions may be reasonable, some may be incorrect and very damaging. Even if a business is unloved for other legitimate reasons, it isn't fair to get carried away, and doing so here can even make it harder for BP and WJ to get the result they deserve.

(3) I reiterate that it would be useful to speak with an attorney. Even your local attorney (from elsewhere than TN) will know the general principles that apply to such situations, since the law is very similar in this area in different states, and she/he can also discuss with BP/WJ whether their losses (which may involve more than just the money) are significant enough to justify a lawsuit or even a small claims action.

Beyond that, I really strongly urge people to calm down. Unfortunately, things don't happen as quickly as people wish, but that may not be a bad thing. But much more discussion here can make things harder for the injured parties to get what they deserve.

The Weasel

Thank you very much TW. I appreciate the suggestions. Naming the business on the thread has started a chain reaction (aka the pitchfork thing) I understand why, but of coarse it is not useful to what is happening. I think this situation also bring up a lot of old bad blood between UJ and others on whiteblaze.
Not that is likely to happen but if I could move this thread in the direction of attempted thru-hikes that were forced to an and. Whether because of money, fraud, or injury. I am curious as to what people did and how they felt and responded. I posed this question earlier but no one responded as the the Hot UJ issue. The thread is Bearpaw and Windjammer off trail not what happened at UJ.;)

[Sly]

When you walk off the mountain UJ's is right there in your face, I don't think it matters whether he's listed or not. If he weren't in any of the guides/companions he'd still have plenty of business.

Yeah I know where UJ's is. The point being, should ALDHA include him if he's going to screw over the hikers? Would you recommend him? Why should the Companion, which it would be by including him.

[Sly]

The thread is Bearpaw and Windjammer off trail not what happened at UJ.;)

Aren't you off the trail because your bank account was virtually cleaned out by a trail provider? You did a service to hikers that follow by hinting then reaffirming the business. No matter how close to the trail or how good the hostel, it's probably best to stay away.

[Bearpaw88]

Aren't you off the trail because your bank account was virtually cleaned out by a trail provider? .

Of coarse I was merely suggesting another direction for the thread to go.... :)

[The Weasel]

BP: If you want the topic changed, about the only thing you can do is ask to have the thread closed if it doesn't go the new direction. This is supposed to be a forum only for '08 hikers, so it's your call.

You're very welcome, by the way. If you have more questions, PM me anytime.

TW

[Kirby]

This is quite upsetting, and I know based on the information given where it was. Big businesses don't want the liability that comes with taking more money than their supposed to, it's easier for smaller businesses to get away with it, unfortunately.

WJ and BP:
I will try to make it to Trail Days next year, see you all then.

Kirby

[Kirby]

I will also recommend to the Appalachian Pages that Uncle Johnny's not be included in the 2009 edition.

Kirby

[10-K]

Yeah I know where UJ's is. The point being, should ALDHA include him if he's going to screw over the hikers? Would you recommend him? Why should the Companion, which it would be by including him.

The only thing I know with 100% certainty, that is not based on information gleaned from an internet forum, word of mouth or second hand information is that I've used Uncle Johnny's for shuttles 5-6 times and have never had a problem. That's my first hand experience. I've never been cheated or lied to.

Now, if you have some way of knowing (besides opinion based on a Whiteblaze forum) that he's going to screw over hikers for absolute certainty they -no- I don't think he should be listed.

If you're thinking about he should not be listed because of this thread then I think you're ahead of yourself.

It really helps to know both sides of a story.

[10-K]

I will also recommend to the Appalachian Pages that Uncle Johnny's not be included in the 2009 edition.

Kirby


Why? Because of this thread?

[Bearpaw88]

I will also recommend to the Appalachian Pages that Uncle Johnny's not be included in the 2009 edition.

Kirby

Kirby!!! We miss you! I wish you all the best of luck of your hike. Who knows we might be out there again before the season is out. If not we Will be at trail days next year then hiking North from Waynesboro!! Hope your having a great time.:D

[Sly]

If he only screws one or two hikers a year is that OK?

I don't think it's just opinion. Afterall, someone had thier bank account cleaned out and UJ is taking his time refunding it.

I don't know his email, otherwise I'd invite him to answer and speak for himself.





The only thing I know with 100% certainty, that is not based on information gleaned from an internet forum, word of mouth or second hand information is that I've used Uncle Johnny's for shuttles 5-6 times and have never had a problem. That's my first hand experience. I've never been cheated or lied to.

Now, if you have some way of knowing (besides opinion based on a Whiteblaze forum) that he's going to screw over hikers for absolute certainty they -no- I don't think he should be listed.

If you're thinking about he should not be listed because of this thread then I think you're ahead of yourself.

It really helps to know both sides of a story.

[Lone Wolf]

If he only screws one or two hikers a year is that OK?

I don't think it's just opinion. Afterall, someone had thier bank account cleaned out and UJ is taking his time refunding it.

I don't know his email, otherwise I'd invite him to answer and speak for himself.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php?u=15670

[Kirby]

Why? Because of this thread?

He does not deserve listing if hikers have to be concerned about their account being emptied by him.

Kirby

[Sly]

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php?u=15670

Thanks, PM sent

[Appalachian Tater]

I think it should be assumed that this was an error on Uncle Johnny's part until proven otherwise, innocent until proven guilty.

What is important, assuming it was an error, is the way he handles the situation and whether or not he tries to make up for it.

[Appalachian Tater]

Thanks, PM sentHe has made 0 posts and his last activity was in January. Don't hold your breath waiting for him to get your message.

[10-K]

If he only screws one or two hikers a year is that OK?

I don't think it's just opinion. Afterall, someone had thier bank account cleaned out and UJ is taking his time refunding it.

I don't know his email, otherwise I'd invite him to answer and speak for himself.

www.unclejohnnys.net (http://www.unclejohnnys.net)

Not a single one of us knows the whole story. All we know is what Bearpaw has told us. I am not saying that Bearpaw isn't being 100% truthful - what I am saying is that we don't know the whole story.

I think there is a big piece missing.

[Tin Man]

www.unclejohnnys.net (http://www.unclejohnnys.net)

Not a single one of us knows the whole story. All we know is what Bearpaw has told us. I am not saying that Bearpaw isn't being 100% truthful - what I am saying is that we don't know the whole story.

I think there is a big piece missing.

There is a lot of history with UJ. Sure, many had good experiences, but there were many who did not in the past. He tried to put it behind him and was successful to some extent. Then this episode came up. So it will be interesting to hear what he has to say if he should chime in. However, if lawyers are involved, there may not be anything he can say.

[10-K]

There is a lot of history with UJ. Sure, many had good experiences, but there were many who did not in the past. He tried to put it behind him and was successful to some extent. Then this episode came up. So it will be interesting to hear what he has to say if he should chime in. However, if lawyers are involved, there may not be anything he can say.

Maybe if Miss Janet called him she could find out.... ;)

I'd be surprised if lawyers get involved. Lawyers cost money and I'm not sure how much is at stake here but it'd take a fair amount to make it worth pursuing if it came to that. If you sue and win you still have to collect.

[Tin Man]

email sent to unclejohnnys.net

[10-K]

email sent to unclejohnnys.net

The email listed on their website is [email protected] ([email protected])

[Bearpaw88]

email sent to unclejohnnys.net

For the record I have nothing to do with any message sent by anyone else to Uncle Johnny. We will be corresponding with him via certified mail.

I find it crazy that now twice I have attempted to get some real discussion going about ending a thru-hike early and have been ignored twice. I want to leave the thread open but I will not longer be talking about our situation with Uncle Johnny. When we get it resolved I will inform everyone as to how it worked out and what happened. Until then... that's it.
Thank You all for your support.

[Tin Man]

The email listed on their website is [email protected] ([email protected])

Thanks. Message resent.

[Pedaling Fool]

For the record I have nothing to do with any message sent by anyone else to Uncle Johnny. We will be corresponding with him via certified mail.

I find it crazy that now twice I have attempted to get some real discussion going about ending a thru-hike early and have been ignored twice. I want to leave the thread open but I will not longer be talking about our situation with Uncle Johnny. When we get it resolved I will inform everyone as to how it worked out and what happened. Until then... that's it.
Thank You all for your support.
Too late! This thread, as with many has taken on a life of its own. People are just too emotional to carry an intelligent conversation on virtually any subject, let alone when the subject is focused on UJ.

[10-K]

For the record I have nothing to do with any message sent by anyone else to Uncle Johnny. We will be corresponding with him via certified mail.

I find it crazy that now twice I have attempted to get some real discussion going about ending a thru-hike early and have been ignored twice. I want to leave the thread open but I will not longer be talking about our situation with Uncle Johnny. When we get it resolved I will inform everyone as to how it worked out and what happened. Until then... that's it.
Thank You all for your support.

Yeah, I'm done too. For some reason this thread really got my attention.

I'd still love to know if either of you have contacted Uncle Johnny's after they admitted the error and asked "When are you going to give us our money back?" and what the answer to that question was.

I just can't imagine a scenario where any business would say "Yes, it was our mistake but we're going to drag this out just as long as we can because keeping this money that the bank is going to take away from us anyway is in the best interest of our business."

Something isn't right.

[Tin Man]

For the record I have nothing to do with any message sent by anyone else to Uncle Johnny. We will be corresponding with him via certified mail.

I find it crazy that now twice I have attempted to get some real discussion going about ending a thru-hike early and have been ignored twice. I want to leave the thread open but I will not longer be talking about our situation with Uncle Johnny. When we get it resolved I will inform everyone as to how it worked out and what happened. Until then... that's it.
Thank You all for your support.

Bring someone's name into a discussion here, I think it is only fair to hear from them. You are smart not to discuss your situation with Uncle Johnny, but since his business is on the line with other folks here, I thought he should know about it and see what he has to say. Who knows, maybe it will lead to a speedier resolution. :)

[The Weasel]

He does not deserve listing if hikers have to be concerned about their account being emptied by him.

Kirby

Kirby: You don't know what occurred, and John has not (and likely won't) respond here. There are places in Bryson's book that get slammed that didn't deserve that, either. Your comment is out of place.

TW

[Sissygirl]

Life Lock's owner has had his social used for something.

[Lone Wolf]

Kirby: You don't know what occurred, and John has not (and likely won't) respond here. There are places in Bryson's book that get slammed that didn't deserve that, either. Your comment is out of place.

TW

rainbow springs?

[MOWGLI]

rainbow springs?

Jensine certainly thinks so.

[10-K]

And to bring this full circle I just noticed that Uncle Johnny has a photo of Warren Doyle on his site... http://www.unclejohnnys.net/Hikerservices.html

Does this change everything?

(I've had entirely too much free time today...)

[Runsalone]

Hey Bearpaw! I met you and Windjammer briefly at standing bear hostel, that seems like so long ago now! Sorry to hear your trip has ended. I had to get off the trail myself this year due to financial difficulty on the homefront. I wasnt really prepared for it to end like that! Im trying to get back out and at least make it to Harpers Ferry this year, but everything is not working out so well. I sure hope your situation gets resolved and you can get back out there! I know too well what its like to suddenly be sitting at home going "What the **** just happened"

[Bearpaw88]

Hey Bearpaw! I met you and Windjammer briefly at standing bear hostel, that seems like so long ago now! Sorry to hear your trip has ended. I had to get off the trail myself this year due to financial difficulty on the homefront. I wasnt really prepared for it to end like that! Im trying to get back out and at least make it to Harpers Ferry this year, but everything is not working out so well. I sure hope your situation gets resolved and you can get back out there! I know too well what its like to suddenly be sitting at home going "What the **** just happened"

Hey! It does feel like along time. I loved Standing Bear Hostel. It is really weird when one day your planning to hike the next and your home. "What the fudge happened is right" I tried to sleep in my backyard yesterday and my landlord got all mad :rolleyes: Falling in love with the AT seems like an incurable bug. I will be getting out there defiantly next year and maybe even sometime this season. It is good to hear from you and I am sorry about your troubles. All the best getting back on trail:banana
Bearpaw

[Bearpaw88]

Hey Bearpaw! I met you and Windjammer briefly at standing bear hostel,

Hey were you there for Coma's branding??

[Appalachian Tater]

Hey! It does feel like along time. I loved Standing Bear Hostel. It is really weird when one day your planning to hike the next and your home. "What the fudge happened is right" I tried to sleep in my backyard yesterday and my landlord got all mad :rolleyes: Falling in love with the AT seems like an incurable bug. I will be getting out there defiantly next year and maybe even sometime this season. It is good to hear from you and I am sorry about your troubles. All the best getting back on trail:banana
Bearpaw
What would have to happen for you to get back on the trail?

[Blissful]

Yes, hope you can get back on too.

[Sly]

since his business is on the line with other folks here, I thought he should know about it and see what he has to say. Who knows, maybe it will lead to a speedier resolution. :)

His business "has been on the line" with many hikers for several years now. This is the last of many complaints. It would do Johnnie well to either respond and/or do what's necessary for a speedy refund.

[Sly]

I find it crazy that now twice I have attempted to get some real discussion going about ending a thru-hike early and have been ignored twice.

We are having a discussion about ending a thru-hike early by having your savings wiped! I know if it was me I'd be livid. I AM livid in your defense. I've had two thru-hikes end early because I ran out of money, but that was only due to my poor planning.

[Runsalone]

Hey were you there for Coma's branding??

I was actually. That was BONKERS!!!!:eek: what ever became of Coma? I remember him saying he needed to get offtrail in hotsprings. I never did see any of the group from that night again except for Cuattro, I think. I remember wondering how Coma was gonna hike with how bad that leg mustve been hurting the next day.

Brad.

[Lone Wolf]

We are having a discussion about ending a thru-hike early by having your savings wiped! I know if it was me I'd be livid. I AM livid in your defense. I've had two thru-hikes end early because I ran out of money, but that was only due to my poor planning.

most hikers are liberal/pacifists. they let **** go and feel bad for the criminal

[Bearpaw88]

I was actually. That was BONKERS!!!!:eek: what ever became of Coma? I remember him saying he needed to get offtrail in hotsprings. I never did see any of the group from that night again except for Cuattro, I think. I remember wondering how Coma was gonna hike with how bad that leg mustve been hurting the next day.

Brad.

He made it past Erwin then left. His leg got infected and he went to the ER and got antibiotic. He gets the dumb ass masochist award. :D We haven't heard from him since. I don't even know why he got off trail.

[Sly]

most hikers are liberal/pacifists. they let **** go and feel bad for the criminal

Like Bush and Cheney? ;)

[Bearpaw88]

most hikers are liberal/pacifists. they let **** go and feel bad for the criminal

I am no ****ing pacifist. **** what the ****. ****ing **** bastards. Is this livid enough for ya! what the **** ******** :mad: and I definitely don't feel bad for ****ing **** criminals. :mad:

[Bearpaw88]

Sorry... Lost my cool:cool:

[Odd Thomas]

most hikers are liberal/pacifists. they let **** go and feel bad for the criminal

Well, the guy hasn't been convicted of anything, so that'd be the Constitutional position too, except for the feeling bad part. ;)

[Sly]

I am no ****ing pacifist. **** what the ****. ****ing **** bastards. Is this livid enough for ya! what the **** ******** :mad: and I definitely don't feel bad for ****ing **** criminals. :mad:

LOL... refreshing to see someone get their anger out. LW is good like that! :D

[Lone Wolf]

I am no ****ing pacifist. **** what the ****. ****ing **** bastards. Is this livid enough for ya! what the **** ******** :mad: and I definitely don't feel bad for ****ing **** criminals. :mad:

sorry dude. wasn't targeting you specifically. just saying over the past 20+ years i've been out here hikers have been screwed over by service providers and they do nothing about it

[Lone Wolf]

Sorry... Lost my cool:cool:

i ain't got a good way with words. i am a dick. sorry

[Bearpaw88]

sorry dude. wasn't targeting you specifically. just saying over the past 20+ years i've been out here hikers have been screwed over by service providers and they do nothing about it

Yah I know but it was a good opportunity to ***** :D

[OregonHiker]

i ain't got a good way with words. i am a dick. sorry

Someone hack into LW's WB account? :cool:

[Bearpaw88]

What would have to happen for you to get back on the trail?

I am looking into it....

[rafe]

Someone hack into LW's WB account? :cool:

Nah, this is LW's m.o. Every now and then he posts an endearing self-deprecating remark and everything's cool again. :rolleyes: Then he goes back to ***** mode.

[Lone Wolf]

Someone hack into LW's WB account? :cool:

nah. i'm the first to admit i'm a douche/dick. plus i'm totally misunderstood. that happens when 99.9% of folks reading are blinded, deaf liberals

[Lone Wolf]

Nah, this is LW's m.o. Every now and then he posts an endearing self-deprecating remark and everything's cool again. :rolleyes: Then he goes back to ***** mode.

sure. whatever. i'm loved. you're jealous

[Sly]

Then he goes back to ***** mode.

Whereas, you just tend to stay there.

[warren doyle]

Oh the drama! The drama!

[Bearpaw88]

Oh the drama! The drama!

stay outta this warren. I was having fun.:)

[Sly]

Oh the drama! The drama!

Yup, the best entertainment around, but you knew that.

[Runsalone]

[quote=Bearpaw88;654411] His leg got infected and he went to the ER and got antibiotic. He gets the dumb ass masochist award. :Dquote]

Sort of what I was thinking that night but seemed like he really wanted to do it and wasnt to bad drunk;)

[Tin Man]

Nah, this is LW's m.o. Every now and then he posts an endearing self-deprecating remark and everything's cool again. :rolleyes: Then he goes back to ***** mode.


nah. i'm the first to admit i'm a douche/dick. plus i'm totally misunderstood. that happens when 99.9% of folks reading are blinded, deaf liberals


sure. whatever. i'm loved. you're jealous

T is jealous. And I, for one, don't misunderstand LW, but then I am not liberal. :D

[Lone Wolf]

T is jealous. And I, for one, don't misunderstand LW, but then I am not liberal. :D

right on my right brother. :)

[rafe]

T is jealous. And I, for one, don't misunderstand LW, but then I am not liberal. :D

I feel for you, but poodles don't have politics. They have ticks, fleas, worms, and bad hips.

[Lone Wolf]

I feel for you, but poodles don't have politics. They have ticks and fleas.

and you're a cube-dwelling packsniffing wannabe :)

[rafe]

and you're a cube-dwelling packsniffing wannabe :)

Like I said. One "aw shucks, I'm an ahole" and you're back in your groove. ;)

[Lone Wolf]

Like I said. One "aw shucks, I'm an ahole" and you're back in your groove. ;)

i'm never out of a groove, mon. dig deep. find yours. it's RIGHT in front of you

[Tin Man]

must have been a bad day in cube world. he's got nothin' but poodles on his mind.

[Bearpaw88]

[quote=Bearpaw88;654411] His leg got infected and he went to the ER and got antibiotic. He gets the dumb ass masochist award. :Dquote]

Sort of what I was thinking that night but seemed like he really wanted to do it and wasnt to bad drunk;)

He was was really drunk afterwards, but he had been talking about it for weeks. He was going to do it himself if Rambo didn't help him.

[Tin Man]

Just opened the following email to my message to UJ that he may want to check out what is being said about his business. He must have been on WB, because I never mentioned anything about a "manual machine".

-Tin Man

---

Would you please answer this and tell them we are unaware of any credit card dispute and we don't have a manual machine. This is the first I have heard of this. Uncle
Johnny

[Jack Tarlin]

Bearclaw:

Regardless of what your bank has told you, you need to send a certified letter to the place where you had your problem, as it seems there's a bit of a disagreement over the version of events. Feel free to inform us of what they have to say.

I also hope that we'll hear more from the other side at some point. In any disagreement, there's always more than one side, and it's time we heard from the other one.

If, of course, they want to tell us anything.

[Bearpaw88]

Just opened the following email to my message to UJ that he may want to check out what is being said about his business. He must have been on WB, because I never mentioned anything about a "manual machine".

-Tin Man

---

Would you please answer this and tell them we are unaware of any credit card dispute and we don't have a manual machine. This is the first I have heard of this. Uncle
Johnny

Hmm...Windjammer told me the bank had already been in contact with them last week and had several conversations with them. Either he's lying, the banks lying, or Windjammer's lying? I am going to find out....I hope this doesn't get more ugly than it's already become.

[Tin Man]

Hmm...Windjammer told me the bank had already been in contact with them last week and had several conversations with them. Either he's lying, the banks lying, or Windjammer's lying? I am going to find out....I hope this doesn't get more ugly than it's already become.

Keep us posted.

[Tin Man]

Hmm...Windjammer told me the bank had already been in contact with them last week and had several conversations with them. Either he's lying, the banks lying, or Windjammer's lying? I am going to find out....I hope this doesn't get more ugly than it's already become.

Or someone on UJ's side isn't telling UJ what's up.

[rickb]

Just removed my post. No need for my speculation.

[Bulldawg]

Well, while working at the Home Depot, if a purchase was made with a debit card and a pin was entered, and later the product returned, we'd have to give cash back. There was no other way to refund. If using the same card as a credit card with a signiture, monies would be returned to the account.

I can run credit to a debit card at my business.

[Bulldawg]

most hikers are liberal/pacifists.

Why is that LW, it gets so bad sometimes it makes me want to hurl!

On another point about credit card credits. Last year I had three rooms at a Marriott at Vanderbilt University in Nashville for the UGA v. Vandy football game. One guy ended up backing out on us. Well I sold the room to a UGA alum for the same thing I had in it. Since we couldn't transfer the name, I paid for the room and he paid me out in the parking lot. We convinced the desk clerk to take his credit card for any room charges after the fact or damages. Well, I get home Monday, check my credit card Tuesday, the Marriott had charged me for some drinks and meals this guy had bought. I called the Marriott and let them know about the mistake. The guy says "Yes sir, I see that we have another card that was supposed to be charged, we apologize for the mistake." My card was credited by Wednesday. Not nearly the same issue these poor guys have experienced, but the credit only took one day to clear the banks, not weeks as some here have suggested.

[Bearpaw88]

fter corresponding with Uncle Johnny and others. I now know the full story and it is not one that neither pleases me nor will please any of you. It turns out I was lied to by a loved one. Everything that was told to me and that I then re-told on this thread was a lie. There never was any credit error. WJ just wanted to get off trail or something and made it all up. Other then being very hurt and betrayed I am very embarrassed I unknowingly misguided your sympathies and anger. I sincerely apologize to everyone on Whiteblaze.net and to Uncle Johnny. I am fuming mad, apologetic, and hurt. This will most likely ruin my reputation on white blaze and on trail which I can understand. All I can say is that I would never have made this public had I known the truth of things; that it was just someone lying about money. It is my fault again for not being absolutely sure of what I was saying and trusting someone else’s word. Again I apologize to all who have offered sympathy, suggestions, and words of encouragement. Thank you Tin Man for contacting Uncle Johnny as I might have never known the truth had I not discovered it myself.

[Appalachian Tater]

fter corresponding with Uncle Johnny and others. I now know the full story and it is not one that neither pleases me nor will please any of you. It turns out I was lied to by a loved one. Everything that was told to me and that I then re-told on this thread was a lie. There never was any credit error. WJ just wanted to get off trail or something and made it all up. Other then being very hurt and betrayed I am very embarrassed I unknowingly misguided your sympathies and anger. I sincerely apologize to everyone on Whiteblaze.net and to Uncle Johnny. I am fuming mad, apologetic, and hurt. This will most likely ruin my reputation on white blaze and on trail which I can understand. All I can say is that I would never have made this public had I known the truth of things; that it was just someone lying about money. It is my fault again for not being absolutely sure of what I was saying and trusting someone else’s word. Again I apologize to all who have offered sympathy, suggestions, and words of encouragement. Thank you Tin Man for contacting Uncle Johnny as I might have never known the truth had I not discovered it myself.Wow. I hope things work out for the best for you with this. Don't blame yourself for trusting someone you thought you could trust but learn from it because this kind of lying is serious stuff. Yeah, my vote is for kicking his no-good *** out of your life entirely.

[Jack Tarlin]

Bearpaw:

First off, it says a lot about you that the minute you got the details on this, you immediately decided to tell us, and more importantly, that you immediately expressed sincere regret to the business and business-owner in question.

And while there will be people who'll be upset with you, as well as upset with those who supported you, I think it needs to be remembered that you were also a victim here, i.e. you were misled. If the version of events that you related here proved to be untrue, well, all you did was relate events that you had no reason to doubt, i.e. there was no reason for you NOT to believe the version of events that had been related to you.

So I hope people go a little easy on you.

In any case, the lesson for the rest of us is that when there's a beef or problem in the hiker community, there's almost always more than one side to the story, and many of us, and I could include myself here, were too quick to take sides on this one. There are any number of reasons WHY we did this, and there are reasons WHY we were so quick to believe this particular tale, but that's not really the point here and that can be discussed another time.

What matters now is that Bearpaw admits she was misled, and this fact led her to say and do things that caused damage to someone else's name and reputation. I believe her apology above is absolutely sincere, and I think other folks should consider making similar statements. There was a rush to judgment here, and it was unfortunate that it took so long to get the whole story. Good for Tin Man for being the person who attempted to do this.

That's all for now, I'm sure there'll be plenty of comments on this tomorrow.

[MOWGLI]

Sounds like this thread should be locked down. It's only going to get ugly from here.


Um, Mowgli, it got ugly when these kids had their trip ended.

They have every right to discuss it, so do other people, and neither Mowgli or anyone else has the right to muzzle the discussion.

I hate to say "I told you so." Actually, that's a lie. :p

[10-K]

fter corresponding with Uncle Johnny and others. I now know the full story and it is not one that neither pleases me nor will please any of you. It turns out I was lied to by a loved one. Everything that was told to me and that I then re-told on this thread was a lie. There never was any credit error. WJ just wanted to get off trail or something and made it all up. Other then being very hurt and betrayed I am very embarrassed I unknowingly misguided your sympathies and anger. I sincerely apologize to everyone on Whiteblaze.net and to Uncle Johnny. I am fuming mad, apologetic, and hurt. This will most likely ruin my reputation on white blaze and on trail which I can understand. All I can say is that I would never have made this public had I known the truth of things; that it was just someone lying about money. It is my fault again for not being absolutely sure of what I was saying and trusting someone else’s word. Again I apologize to all who have offered sympathy, suggestions, and words of encouragement. Thank you Tin Man for contacting Uncle Johnny as I might have never known the truth had I not discovered it myself.

I knew something wasn't right - the original story didn't really ever make sense. My business charged just over $10M in credit/debit card sales last year and there were plenty of disputes - never can I remember a time when a bank advised a customer not to communicate with us. Usually, the bank wants you to work it out with the merchant because it saves them a bunch of work. Secondly, if Uncle Johnny's admitted the mistake there was no reason for him not to credit it immediately - then say "we've done all we can do, here's a copy of the credit.". If they were running some kind of scam the last thing they'd want to do is attract attention to themselves - best to make it look like an accident and keep everyone happy and no one is the wiser. Anyway, the bottom line is that the story never sounded plausible to me.

Anyway Bearpaw, I'm sorry to hear about your experience. Bummer all the way around.

There were some real lessons in this one.

p.s. I'm outta here in about an hour and a half - off to West 'by God' Virginia for a week!

[10-K]

In any case, the lesson for the rest of us is that when there's a beef or problem in the hiker community, there's almost always more than one side to the story, and many of us, and I could include myself here, were too quick to take sides on this one. There are any number of reasons WHY we did this, and there are reasons WHY we were so quick to believe this particular tale, but that's not really the point here and that can be discussed another time.

Jack - the problem isn't taking sides. The problem is the rush to judgement. It's a natural reaction to take a side. It's less skillful to make your mind up before you have all the facts.

And even if you have all the facts you can sometimes find yourself on the wrong end of the stick, depending on how those facts are presented.

[Lone Wolf]

This will most likely ruin my reputation on white blaze and on trail which I can understand. All I can say is that I would never have made this public had I known the truth of things; that it was just someone lying about money. It is my fault again for not being absolutely sure of what I was saying and trusting someone else’s word. Again I apologize to all who have offered sympathy, suggestions, and words of encouragement. Thank you Tin Man for contacting Uncle Johnny as I might have never known the truth had I not discovered it myself.
your rep is fine in my book. i owe UJ an apology too. all reports about his place for the past few years were positive. too bad your friend made this up. time to move on and regroup

[mrc237]

Just another case of WBers piling on! ;)

[max patch]

The typical WB lynch mob mentality has now resulted in an innocent business being slandered.

This thread needs to be deleted immediately -- not just locked down -- and an apology made to UJ by the owners of this site.

Seriously.

[Odd Thomas]

The typical WB lynch mob mentality has now resulted in an innocent business being slandered.

This thread needs to be deleted immediately -- not just locked down -- and an apology made to UJ by the owners of this site.

Seriously.

The owners of this site aren't responsible for the contents of the thread. A crime WAS committed against the business though, the thread probably should be deleted.

[Tin Man]

fter corresponding with Uncle Johnny and others. I now know the full story and it is not one that neither pleases me nor will please any of you. It turns out I was lied to by a loved one. Everything that was told to me and that I then re-told on this thread was a lie. There never was any credit error. WJ just wanted to get off trail or something and made it all up. Other then being very hurt and betrayed I am very embarrassed I unknowingly misguided your sympathies and anger. I sincerely apologize to everyone on Whiteblaze.net and to Uncle Johnny. I am fuming mad, apologetic, and hurt. This will most likely ruin my reputation on white blaze and on trail which I can understand. All I can say is that I would never have made this public had I known the truth of things; that it was just someone lying about money. It is my fault again for not being absolutely sure of what I was saying and trusting someone else’s word. Again I apologize to all who have offered sympathy, suggestions, and words of encouragement. Thank you Tin Man for contacting Uncle Johnny as I might have never known the truth had I not discovered it myself.

WOW! Good job clearing this up Bearpaw. It must have been very difficult finding out how things really went with someone who you gave your trust. Sharing all this speaks very well of your character. Instead of ruining your reputation, it just went to the top of the class in my book. You learned a difficult lesson and came right out with it once you knew the truth. That is not easy to do. Good for you.

I would hope participants and readers grew a bit here, too. I know I did. Thank you for sharing.

[Tin Man]

I wouldn't delete the thread, just the name of the business. Too many valuable lessons here.

[kanga]

fter corresponding with Uncle Johnny and others. I now know the full story and it is not one that neither pleases me nor will please any of you. It turns out I was lied to by a loved one. Everything that was told to me and that I then re-told on this thread was a lie. There never was any credit error. WJ just wanted to get off trail or something and made it all up. Other then being very hurt and betrayed I am very embarrassed I unknowingly misguided your sympathies and anger. I sincerely apologize to everyone on Whiteblaze.net and to Uncle Johnny. I am fuming mad, apologetic, and hurt. This will most likely ruin my reputation on white blaze and on trail which I can understand. All I can say is that I would never have made this public had I known the truth of things; that it was just someone lying about money. It is my fault again for not being absolutely sure of what I was saying and trusting someone else’s word. Again I apologize to all who have offered sympathy, suggestions, and words of encouragement. Thank you Tin Man for contacting Uncle Johnny as I might have never known the truth had I not discovered it myself.

You're a strong woman to face it flat out like that and I have nothing but respect for your handling of this. I'm really sorry you were screwed like that, sometimes people just aren't what they pretend to be. I'd say that your reputation is just fine. WJ is the one that seems the loser in all of this. Chin up, woman, and hike on.
I hope you are able to get back on the trail yourself.

[jessicacomp]

Hey Bearpaw, Two Beers here. I have been reading this thread and am quite surprised by the turn of events. I ended up staying off the trail after I got bursitis and am already planning another attempt at a thru hike, so I know how terrible it is to have to get off. I hope you get back on though. I'm really sorry that this happened to you though is basically what I want to say. Next time you hike just dont take windjammer along and you'll be just fine i am sure!

[Yahtzee]

This just never made sense and now it does.

Don't kick yourself for trusting. It sometimes sucks to be trusting and you can get taken for sure, but the alternative is no way to live.

And if I read correctly, you were lied to by your hiking partner because they didn't want to hike anymore? And they created THIS lie? What a (fill in the blank with your epithet of choice)!

Whatever happened to "my knee hurts"? That one is tried and true.

Any chance you can get back out there and still get some more miles in this year? Would hate to think your lingering memory of the trail will be one that involves you feeling bad about yourself and hiking. It's just a ****ty mountain on a cold, rainy day when you don't feel good. Tomorrow will be better.

Don't kick yourself. Kick your "friend".

[wilconow]

So she had her funds in Windjammer's bank acct? Are they a couple? She didn't want to get off the trail but this guy made up the story and took them both off???

[Pedaling Fool]

fter corresponding with Uncle Johnny and others. I now know the full story and it is not one that neither pleases me nor will please any of you. It turns out I was lied to by a loved one. Everything that was told to me and that I then re-told on this thread was a lie. There never was any credit error. WJ just wanted to get off trail or something and made it all up. Other then being very hurt and betrayed I am very embarrassed I unknowingly misguided your sympathies and anger. I sincerely apologize to everyone on Whiteblaze.net and to Uncle Johnny. I am fuming mad, apologetic, and hurt. This will most likely ruin my reputation on white blaze and on trail which I can understand. All I can say is that I would never have made this public had I known the truth of things; that it was just someone lying about money. It is my fault again for not being absolutely sure of what I was saying and trusting someone else’s word. Again I apologize to all who have offered sympathy, suggestions, and words of encouragement. Thank you Tin Man for contacting Uncle Johnny as I might have never known the truth had I not discovered it myself.
That's some tough medicine. I know this will take a while for you to come to terms with. It makes trusting people very hard, something I know all too well.

[Pedaling Fool]

...Whatever happened to "my knee hurts"? That one is tried and true.....
That's funny. I hate people.

[Tin Man]

I hate people.

Judging from your posts, you might consider seeking professional help with that.

[Pedaling Fool]

Judging from your posts, you might consider seeking professional help with that.
I'm working on it:sun

[envirodiver]

Bearpaw88, I've been following this thread since it started and remember that you did not want to reveal the name of the business and it was eventually dragged out of you.

You've done the right thing all around to make amends. Shows strong character. Don't know what your relationship w/ WJ was, but it does hurt to be lied to, misled, and embarassed by someone that you care about. Hang tough and it will be fine.

Doesn't seem that folks here think less of you over this.

[Sly]

And if I read correctly, you were lied to by your hiking partner because they didn't want to hike anymore? And they created THIS lie? What a (fill in the blank with your epithet of choice)!

Whatever happened to "my knee hurts"? That one is tried and true.


Really, so much for honesty among partners. Truth is such a simple concept, liberating. I feel sorry for all involved. I hope you get back out there Bearpaw, if not this year, next.

[Pedaling Fool]

The typical WB lynch mob mentality has now resulted in an innocent business being slandered.

This thread needs to be deleted immediately -- not just locked down -- and an apology made to UJ by the owners of this site.

Seriously.
...or maybe it needs to be used as an example the next time we get on a rant.

[Slimer]

I realize that the situation is over, but I'm curious as to why you kept your money in windjammers account. Why not have your own?

[Tin Man]

Okay folks, this is not a soap opera or Dear Abby column. Let Bearbaw to her privacy regarding her relationship here, as is her right and as she chooses.

[rafe]

B'wana Dik has spoken. :rolleyes:

[Tin Man]

B'wana Dik has spoken. :rolleyes:

What are you, some kind of voyeur?

[Storyteller56]

There is also the possibility tthat an employee did it unbeknownst to the owner.

[Tin Man]

There is also the possibility tthat an employee did it unbeknownst to the owner.

Huh? Back up a few posts. Bearpaw admitted her friend duped her.

[warren doyle]

Uncle Johnny's = 1

WB Internet Bullies = 0 (especially post #218 - amazing!?)

"When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?"

[Bearpaw88]

There is also the possibility tthat an employee did it unbeknownst to the owner.

This is definitely not the case. I want to make that absolutely clear! Uncle Johny's has never been nor will be in any way responsible for this matter.

[Bearpaw88]

There were some real lessons in this one.


Yes there were and thank you to the people who've expressed regret. I'd rather not release details about WJ and my relationship. Those of you who know me will know what I am doing.

I would suggest to close down the thread, and if necessary start the discussion on a new one. I have gone on far to long about this when I did not have first hand information, and I want no one else hurt or insulted in this way.

[Pedaling Fool]

I hate people - except you Bearpaw88:sun

[MOWGLI]

Yes there were and thank you to the people who've expressed regret. I'd rather not release details about WJ and my relationship. Those of you who know me will know what I am doing.

I would suggest to close down the thread, and if necessary start the discussion on a new one. I have gone on far to long about this when I did not have first hand information, and I want no one else hurt or insulted in this way.

Your a classy woman. By the way, love the tattoo. :sun

[attroll]

I closed this thread at Bearpaw88's request. If you read Post #215 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=654703&postcount=216) you will see that it was not Uncle Johnny's fault but an issue with a hiking partner. It was nice that Bearpaw88 came back and told us this to clear the name of Uncle Johnny's.

Thank you Bearpaw88