kennebec River Ferry Closure

[rickb]

Just wondering how hikers handled the Ferry closure.

Something about too much water?

I guess its up and running now.

http://www.matc.org/alerts.htm

[Tin Man]

Maybe it's time for a blue blaze trail to and from the Kennebec typical fording area. People could then have a choice of taking the ATC white-blazed official trail in the ATC canoe ferry or follow the blue blazes to easily find the safest spot to ford. Of course, a sign would be needed to inform people of the dangers of fording and only go if you are familiar with the technique and the water level appears safe. If the ferry is closed due to high water, the blue blaze trail to the fording area may also need to be closed and a sign posted with instructions of how to get around safely.

[saimyoji]

Maybe it's time for a blue blaze trail to and from the Kennebec typical fording area. People could then have a choice of taking the ATC white-blazed official trail in the ATC canoe ferry or follow the blue blazes to easily find the safest spot to ford. Of course, a sign would be needed to inform people of the dangers of fording and only go if you are familiar with the technique and the water level appears safe. If the ferry is closed due to high water, the blue blaze trail to the fording area may also need to be closed and a sign posted with instructions of how to get around safely.

= lawsuit waiting to happen. Sad but true.

[Pepper Beard]

Never been in the area but could a major relocation of the trail be of any help? They've done major relocations of the trail before.

It makes sense that if the ferry is closed to high water, fording it under those conditions could be life threatening.

[Lone Wolf]

Never been in the area but could a major relocation of the trail be of any help? They've done major relocations of the trail before.

It makes sense that if the ferry is closed to high water, fording it under those conditions could be life threatening.

the james river bridge is big. it's politics. the kennebec can be bridged at the crossing. easily

[attroll]

With the price they have been paying the ferryman over the years they could have built a bridge a couple times.

[Lone Wolf]

With the price they have been paying the ferryman over the years they could have built a bridge a couple times.

that's what i've been thinkin'. the Foot bridge is a memorial project. the PATC is huge. lotsa D.C. money and members. you can bet your ass if a kennebec type river was on their section it would be bridged. friggin politics as usual :rolleyes:

[wilconow]

The James River Footbridge section is not PATC. It's Natural Bridge Appalachian Trail Club

[Rain Man]

If a canoe can't handle the "high water," then why not a power boat?

Rain:sunMan

.

[Appalachian Tater]

Why not just divert the river away from the trail?

[max patch]

With the price they have been paying the ferryman over the years they could have built a bridge a couple times.

What they paid the ferryman might - just might - pay for the architects and engineers to do the design work. No way it'd pay for the bridge itself.

[Lone Wolf]

The James River Footbridge section is not PATC. It's Natural Bridge Appalachian Trail Club

ok. i stand corrected. but the location had a lot to do with it. lotta $$$ in that area. ain't much in the caratunk area. side note, i met bill and laurie in 87. nice, nice folfs.

[Lone Wolf]

Why not just divert the river away from the trail?

why not just ford it? it's easy and safe at 6am during normal hiking season

[attroll]

What they paid the ferryman might - just might - pay for the architects and engineers to do the design work. No way it'd pay for the bridge itself.
I don't know what a architect gets but I think what they paid the ferryman in one year would have paid the architect. For what they paid for ferryman for the last 20 plus years would have paid for more then have the bridge cost I am sure.

[OregonHiker]

I don't know what a architect gets but I think what they paid the ferryman in one year would have paid the architect. For what they paid for ferryman for the last 20 plus years would have paid for more then have the bridge cost I am sure.

How much did they pay the ferryman and what is the span length accross the river?

[Lone Wolf]

what is the span length accross the river?

100 yards. maybe

[Sir-P-Alot]

why not just ford it? it's easy and safe at 6am during normal hiking season

I agree. Fording the Kennebec was a highlight of my hike.

[attroll]

100 yards. maybe
I do have to pipe up on this one. The river is probably 100 yards but the bridge would have to be a lot wider. The ice flows going down the river in the winter and piling up on the sides would tare the bridge down the first year if it was not beyond the far outer edges of the river.

[Lone Wolf]

I do have to pipe up on this one. The river is probably 100 yards but the bridge would have to be a lot wider. The ice flows going down the river in the winter and piling up on the sides would tare the bridge down the first year if it was not beyond the far outer edges of the river.

i understand that. the Foot bridge is 600 feet. a kennebec bridge can be easily built. i think the MATC doesn't want one

[OregonHiker]

i understand that. the Foot bridge is 600 feet. a kennebec bridge can be easily built. i think the MATC doesn't want one

How much was the foot bridge and what type of construction ad width?

Does it span the entire river?

[attroll]

i understand that. the Foot bridge is 600 feet. a kennebec bridge can be easily built. i think the MATC doesn't want one
I think your right. The MATC is probably the one that does not want to do it. I can not confirm that though. I wished I had thought to bring that up at the last MATC meeting I had attended.

[Lone Wolf]

I think your right. The MATC is probably the one that does not want to do it. I can not confirm that though. I wished I had thought to bring that up at the last MATC meeting I had attended.

the car bridge over the james river wasn't much of a hazard. not much traffic there. a club gets together and pushes for a bridge and it gets built. simple. now a death each

[Pokey2006]

They need a bridge over the Palisades Pkwy. more than they need one over the Kennebec.

[Blissful]

They need a bridge over the Palisades Pkwy. more than they need one over the Kennebec.

Yeah that was a bit unnerving, but we crossed it at a good time of day thankfully.

[Tin Man]

A bridge over the Kennebec is a great idea, but would some still ford?

And, I really don't understand why the Palisades doesn't have a bridge. Is the road in PA that is getting the hiking tunnel a more dangerous crossing?

[Jack Tarlin]

I think it would probably be wiser til we heard from some Maine folks on this one, like Steve Longley, Weary, Teej, or preferably all three.

Troll, a Mainer, was quite right when he said that ice buildup on the river would mean a bridge here on the Kennebec would have to be very large, very strong, very high, and ultimately, very expensive.

The MATC has looked into the possibility of a bridge here for years, but has decided not to go ahead with construction for any number of reasons, expense, maintenance, and insurance being only three.

But I think we should wait and hear from more folks that actually are informed on this. A few quick til then: Anyone that said a bridge "could be easily built here" probably doesn't know a damned thing about bridge building; anyone who says the river can be "safely" forded here is similarly mis-informed. There's been one drowning here, and many close calls. Locals who live on the river and work on the river are unanimous in describing the crossing here as dangerous. We've been thru this many times before: Fording the river here is neither a safe nor a prudent thing to do.

[Tin Man]

We have forded this topic many times and the subject of one tragic death always comes up. However, people still ford and I'm sure many without instruction or experience. It just seems there is more argument about the safety of fording the Kennebec versus the safety of crossing the Whites, where how many people die every year? (Setting aside the question of whether any of these are thru-hikers for the sake of discussion.)

[Appalachian Tater]

I would like to see real warning signs at the Kennebec.

Who would care if some fool forded and drowned having been properly warned and having made the decision to ford anyhow?

The real tragedy is when someone inexperienced is convinced to ford and not given sufficient information with which to make a decision. I hope that if someone ever drowns under those circumstances, anyone who gave encouragement or who downplayed the danger gets sued and loses everything they own. I also hope that criminal charges are possible under such circumstances and that if so, they serve time in prison.

[Jack Tarlin]

Tin Man:

If the White Mountains were a National Park, it'd be the most visited park in the nation, and keep in mind, the majority of folks visit it between Memorial and Labor Day.

That's an awful lot of people in a very short ammount of time.

The number of people who attempt to ford the Kennebec River every year is actually quite small.

When you compare the number of people who hike in the White Mountains each year to the number of folks who cross the river, you'll actually see that statistically, fording the river is MUCH more dangerous. And keep in mind that of the folks who die in the Whites every year, this is usually due to heart disease, exhaustion, falls, etc. When people get in trouble on the Kennebec, this is absolutely cause specific to WHAT they're doing and WHERE, i.e a sixty-three year old out of shape guy who is exercising too much can drop dead walking around the block, raking leaves, shoveling snow. He doesn't have to hike in New Hampshire for this to happen. When someone gets in trouble on the Kennebec, it's because of WHERE THEY ARE and what they're doing, i.e. trying to walk across a dangerous river. Other factors don't really enter in to it.

Your suggestion that hiking in New Hampshire is more dangerous than fording the Kennebec is not accurate.

[Tin Man]

I would like to see real warning signs at the Kennebec.

Who would care if some fool forded and drowned having been properly warned and having made the decision to ford anyhow?

The real tragedy is when someone inexperienced is convinced to ford and not given sufficient information with which to make a decision. I hope that if someone ever drowns under those circumstances, anyone who gave encouragement or who downplayed the danger gets sued and loses everything they own. I also hope that criminal charges are possible under such circumstances and that if so, they serve time in prison.

Twist logic long and hard enough, the cost of a bridge may seem trivial. ;)

Of course, then people would have to be more creative in finding something else to debate. :rolleyes:

[fiddlehead]

It could be done fairly cheaply IMO.
I'd go up river a bit to a more narrow spot, but even if you needed a 200 Yd bridge, here's one that i bet was built for less than $100,000 (and they had to carry the supplies on their backs to build this one) http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg201/fiddleheadpa/loribridgenepal.jpg

[drastic_quench]

I've never been to the Kennebec, but this clipping from the recently posted National Geographic AT article was all it took to convince me to ford.
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/5167/kennebecforddu0.jpg

Q: How difficult would it be for someone to pack in a sign with some basic/informative warnings, dig a small hole, and stake it out at the crossing? Would it be left in place by others?

[OregonHiker]

It could be done fairly cheaply IMO.
I'd go up river a bit to a more narrow spot, but even if you needed a 200 Yd bridge, here's one that i bet was built for less than $100,000 (and they had to carry the supplies on their backs to build this one) http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg201/fiddleheadpa/loribridgenepal.jpg


It all boils down to what kind of bridge the NPS will allow

[drastic_quench]

OOPS! That should have read "convince me NOT to ford"! My typo!

[Sly]

I'd try to ford before I crossed that bridge!

[Jack Tarlin]

Cortez:

There ARE warnings on the riverbank.

And virtually every long-distance hiker or serious section hiker is also carrying a guidebook, which all detail the dangerous history of the crossing, and advise against fording.

So there are, in fact, plenty of warnings.

There are only a few instances of people counseling or suggesting otherwise.

[drastic_quench]

Cortez:

There ARE warnings on the riverbank.

And virtually every long-distance hiker or serious section hiker is also carrying a guidebook, which all detail the dangerous history of the crossing, and advise against fording.

So there are, in fact, plenty of warnings.

There are only a few instances of people counseling or suggesting otherwise.
Ah, that makes more sense. From the old "To Ford the Kennebec" thread I read here, it made it sound like the opposite was true.

[Jack Tarlin]

Cortez:

I've stated this before here, several times, tho there are some who repeatedlychoose to ignore it:

There is no dispute in the Trail community that the person who knows this stretch of the river better than anyone alive is Steve Longley, who, for many, many years, was in charge of the canoe ferry service. In this capacity, he helped thousands of people safely cross the Kennebec here.

Steve has said many times that he feels that attempting to ford the river here is a manifestly foolish, reckless, and dangerous thing to do; furthermore, he thinks very little of anyone who encourages anyone else to think otherwise, or to believe that this is not true.

If anyone wishes to dispute this, then they should cite their credentials, and they should tell us why we should believe THEM, and not Mr. Longley.

[OregonHiker]

[quote=Jack Tarlin;656670]
The MATC has looked into the possibility of a bridge here for years, but has decided not to go ahead with construction for any number of reasons, expense, maintenance, and insurance being only three.
quote]

Can you provide more details?

[Jim Adams]

I have forded once and canoed once neither seemed bad.
The bridge pictured would probably never be built due to liability issues of people falling / jumping into the river.
A river gauge at the fording location would help greatly but then that would also carry liability due to appearing to promote fording.
1 person has drowned, several have been hit with cars crossing roads...sould everything be bridged or maybe just some common sense be used?

geek

[Jack Tarlin]

Sure. But you're on ignore, pal.

See ya.

[MOWGLI]

I have forded once and canoed once neither seemed bad.
The bridge pictured would probably never be built due to liability issues of people falling / jumping into the river.
A river gauge at the fording location would help greatly but then that would also carry liability due to appearing to promote fording.
1 person has drowned, several have been hit with cars crossing roads...sould everything be bridged or maybe just some common sense be used?

geek

You're making way too much sense. Stop it. Immediately. :rolleyes:

[Jim Adams]

You're making way too much sense. Stop it. Immediately. :rolleyes:
Sorry MOWGLI....not enough whiskey today!:)

geek

[Tin Man]

Tin Man:

Your suggestion that hiking in New Hampshire is more dangerous than fording the Kennebec is not accurate.

That isn't exactly what I am trying to say. And I understand and agree with all your points. If we could put aside the statistics for a moment, it just seems to me that a lot of discussion is focused on fording or not fording one body of water versus discussing an often dangerous crossing of the White Mountains. Or fording other rivers, where there is no ferry.

I see the Kennebec as an opportunity for some to take on another challenge. If folks are properly warned of the dangers and the importance of picking a particular spot and using proper technique, I see it as an enrichening alternative.*

Another thought: Posting a "do not ford" message probably encourages more un-safe fording, rather than less.

The other side of the coin is having been in a canoe many times (not this one), I am surprised there hasn't been a ferry disaster. That speaks to the skill of the ferryman, but sooner or latter something is going to go wrong there.

I like the bridge idea best. I would feel safest here and this would be my first choice. And I think others should know the alternatives well and canoe/ford their own hike.




*NOTICE TO ALL: DO NOT TAKE THE FORDING OPTION CASUALLY

[Jack Tarlin]

Gotta disagree with you there, TM.

Posting a "Do Not ford! Fording here is dangerous!" sign hardly seems to me to be an encouragement to ford.

It seems to me to be just the opposite: It's a simple and succint warning about what one should NOT do.

If people choose to ignore this, then they obviously do so at their own peril.

[Appalachian Tater]

Can you provide more details?http://www.lkrlt.org/images/icehorses.jpg

This photo is of ice harvesting on the Kennebec. This may have something to do with why a pedestrian bridge is impractical.

[OregonHiker]

Sure. But you're on ignore, pal.

See ya.

That's what I thought. You have nothing of substance to add.

[Jack Tarlin]

Um, like who cares what you think? :rolleyes:

[Jack Tarlin]

And now he's back on ignore before he starts bringing down THIS thread, too.

Bye, son. Nice not talking to you again. :rolleyes:

[Jim Adams]

http://www.lkrlt.org/images/icehorses.jpg

This photo is of ice harvesting on the Kennebec. This may have something to do with why a pedestrian bridge is impractical.

problem solved...thru hike maine in winter.:D
geek

[OregonHiker]

http://www.lkrlt.org/images/icehorses.jpg

This photo is of ice harvesting on the Kennebec. This may have something to do with why a pedestrian bridge is impractical.

A bridge can be built there. Impractical is a matter of economics, which is really a matter of political/social policy

[Tin Man]

Gotta disagree with you there, TM.

Posting a "Do Not ford! Fording here is dangerous!" sign hardly seems to me to be an encouragement to ford.

It seems to me to be just the opposite: It's a simple and succint warning about what one should NOT do.

If people choose to ignore this, then they obviously do so at their own peril.

Guess I have seen and read about too many smartasses doing stupid stuff like jumping off bridges that have signs, "do not jump". People are going to do what they are going to do. I am simply promoting more information is better than simply saying no.

And I do suggest the ferry is the safer option.

[OregonHiker]

And now he's back on ignore before he starts bringing down THIS thread, too.

Bye, son. Nice not talking to you again. :rolleyes:


Pot..kettle..Tarlin :mad:

[Tin Man]

That's what I thought. You have nothing of substance to add.


Pot..kettle..Tarlin :mad:

Well that has a lot of substance. :rolleyes:

[Appalachian Tater]

A bridge can be built there. Impractical is a matter of economics, which is really a matter of politacal/social policyUh, okay. I agree with you, I think I do, if I understand what you're saying. We could also build a bridge from Maine to Georgia, but that would be even more impractical, is that what you're saying?

[Tin Man]

This photo is of ice harvesting on the Kennebec. This may have something to do with why a pedestrian bridge is impractical.

Um, tater, it wouldn't take much imagination to design a bridge ABOVE the max water/ice level. :rolleyes:

[attroll]

Alright. That is enough. We know what a few of you individuals are doing. Your just trying to egg Jack on and get him all stirred up. That is enough and this has to stop. Whether you like Jack or not it does not matter there is no need to try to get him going. This is carrying over everywhere in the forums and disrupting the forums. Lets stop acting like kids and we are all adults here.

[Jack Tarlin]

Tin Man:

A quick query.......if the man who is universally acknowledged to be THE authority on the Caratunk crossing (i.e Steve Longley) is on record, time and time again, as stating that it is his considered opinion that fording is stupid and dangerous, then what is to be gained by promoting information on how one can "best" ford the river?

If something is stupid and dumb, it's just that, and promoting or providing information on how one can do a stupid and dumb things is.......well, you got it: It's stupid and dumb.

Which is why people like Steve are so very strongly against fording, as well as being outspoken critics of those who argue that it can be done "safely."

If something is inherently dangerous, Tin Man, then it's a fool's errand to find a way to do it "safely."

[Jack Tarlin]

Troll:

Not to worry. I'm not remotely stirred up, nor is there anything in any of my posts that needs to be cautioned about.

My above comments were calm, collected, and quite rational, OK? :D

But gee, thanks for looking out for me. :rolleyes:

[Tin Man]

Alright. That is enough. We know what a few of you individuals are doing. Your just trying to egg Jack on and get him all stirred up. That is enough and this has to stop. Whether you like Jack or not it does not matter there is no need to try to get him going. This is carrying over everywhere in the forums and disrupting the forums. Lets stop acting like kids and we are all adults here.

I hope I haven't said anything that would make you think I was trying to "egg Jack on". I, for one, am interested in discussing the topic, not the personalities.

[Appalachian Tater]

Um, tater, it wouldn't take much imagination to design a bridge ABOVE the max water/ice level. :rolleyes:Then you should do it and start a fund-raising effort.

[OregonHiker]

Alright. That is enough. We know what a few of you individuals are doing. Your just trying to egg Jack on and get him all stirred up. That is enough and this has to stop. Whether you like Jack or not it does not matter there is no need to try to get him going. This is carrying over everywhere in the forums and disrupting the forums. Lets stop acting like kids and we are all adults here.

ATTROLL:

As you have stepped in and declared your allegiance to Tarlin, I must say this..

I am discussing the topic and you're full of CRAP..It's Tarlin who is stirring the pot

[Jack Tarlin]

Real smart thing to say to the guy running the website, there, Oregon! :rolleyes:

See ya.

[OregonHiker]

:D
Real smart thing to say to the guy running the website, there, Oregon! :rolleyes:

See ya.

Well Tarlin...

The truth hurts, and for someone whois ignoring me you sure have big ears :D

[Appalachian Tater]

Whatever happened to just sticking your fingers in your ears and and saying "I CAN'T HEAR YOU I CAN'T HEAR YOU I CAN'T HEAR YOOOOOOOUUUU" over and over again really loud?

[Tin Man]

Tin Man:

A quick query.......if the man who is universally acknowledged to be THE authority on the Caratunk crossing (i.e Steve Longley) is on record, time and time again, as stating that it is his considered opinion that fording is stupid and dangerous, then what is to be gained by promoting information on how one can "best" ford the river?

If something is stupid and dumb, it's just that, and promoting or providing information on how one can do a stupid and dumb things is.......well, you got it: It's stupid and dumb.

Which is why people like Steve are so very strongly against fording, as well as being outspoken critics of those who argue that it can be done "safely."

If something is inherently dangerous, Tin Man, then it's a fool's errand to find a way to do it "safely."

I certainly respect Steve's considered opinion, or at least his public statements. His private thoughts may or may not be the same. If there is such thing as a professional forder, or even one with a lot of fording experience* and on more than a few rivers, and he or she could objectively comment about fording the Kennebec, I think that would be just as interesting as Steve's thoughts. Perhaps there is a fording rating system along with associated skill rankings similar to river rafting? Perhaps not, but it could be interesting.

Let's put it this way, I agree with Jack in that everyone should follow Steve's advice as the best advice on safely crossing the Kennebec in the absence of any rating or system for people to measure against or significant experience with say some of the more difficult crossings in the West.


*No, I am not talking about WD or LW whose thoughts on the topic are well known.

[Tin Man]

ATTROLL:

As you have stepped in and declared your allegiance to Tarlin, I must say this..

I am discussing the topic and you're full of CRAP..It's Tarlin who is stirring the pot and your as big of bag as poultry excrement as he is

Dude, your excrement producing region is showing.

[Jack Tarlin]

TM:

I assure you that Steve's private thoughts and statements are the same as his public ones.

Actually, that's wrong. If anything, they are stronger.

He doesn't think people should ford the Kennebec; and he certainly doesn't think much of those who either encourage them to do so, or who attempt to downplay or minimize the obvious and well-known risks.

I've known Steve for many years and have discussed this with him many times, TM. For you to say that his private thoughts on this matter may or may not be different.....well, this is simply not the case.

[Lone Wolf]

Cortez:

I've stated this before here, several times, tho there are some who repeatedlychoose to ignore it:

There is no dispute in the Trail community that the person who knows this stretch of the river better than anyone alive is Steve Longley, who, for many, many years, was in charge of the canoe ferry service. In this capacity, he helped thousands of people safely cross the Kennebec here.

Steve has said many times that he feels that attempting to ford the river here is a manifestly foolish, reckless, and dangerous thing to do; furthermore, he thinks very little of anyone who encourages anyone else to think otherwise, or to believe that this is not true.

If anyone wishes to dispute this, then they should cite their credentials, and they should tell us why we should believe THEM, and not Mr. Longley.

steve has never forded.

[Tin Man]

TM:

I assure you that Steve's private thoughts and statements are the same as his public ones.

Actually, that's wrong. If anything, they are stronger.

He doesn't think people should ford the Kennebec; and he certainly doesn't think much of those who either encourage them to do so, or who attempt to downplay or minimize the obvious and well-known risks.

I've known Steve for many years and have discussed this with him many times, TM. For you to say that his private thoughts on this matter may or may not be different.....well, this is simply not the case.

Why did I know that was coming? :) So Steve's opinion and veracity are not open for debate. Sorry to suggest they were. Fine, but I would like to be in the room when a professional forder discussed this with him, rationally and objectively of course.

Are we done? :)

TO ALL: TAKE THE FERRY.

[Lone Wolf]

That's what I thought. You have nothing of substance to add.

he's never forded either

[Lone Wolf]

Tin Man:

A quick query.......if the man who is universally acknowledged to be THE authority on the Caratunk crossing (i.e Steve Longley) is on record, time and time again, as stating that it is his considered opinion that fording is stupid and dangerous, then what is to be gained by promoting information on how one can "best" ford the river?

If something is stupid and dumb, it's just that, and promoting or providing information on how one can do a stupid and dumb things is.......well, you got it: It's stupid and dumb.

Which is why people like Steve are so very strongly against fording, as well as being outspoken critics of those who argue that it can be done "safely."

If something is inherently dangerous, Tin Man, then it's a fool's errand to find a way to do it "safely."
steve is no authority

[modiyooch]

Give people facts and let them make an informed decision. Last August, it was strongly recommended that I did not push over the peak of Mt Washington and continue. I had given it some serious thought, and felt that I had it under control, or at least had an alternative if conditions got worse. I am so thankful that I went with my gut feeling. By the time that I got to Mt Jefferson, the sky had cleared and I had an amazing view of Mt Washington.

[fiddlehead]

Tin Man:

A quick query.......if the man who is universally acknowledged to be THE authority on the Caratunk crossing (i.e Steve Longley) is on record, time and time again, as stating that it is his considered opinion that fording is stupid and dangerous, then what is to be gained by promoting information on how one can "best" ford the river?

I

Anyone who thinks it's stupid best stick to the AT and not venture onto the PCT or CDT or many other trails. Because if you do, you most likely will find yourself in a situation where you will be wishing you had more experience in fording deep and wide rivers.

Answering the end of your quote: Experience!

[Lone Wolf]

Anyone who thinks it's stupid best stick to the AT and not venture onto the PCT or CDT or many other trails. Because if you do, you most likely will find yourself in a situation where you will be wishing you had more experience in fording deep and wide rivers.

Answering the end of your quote: Experience!

all they need do is call steve the ferry god!:rolleyes:

[Jack Tarlin]

Fiddlehead:

*When I referring to fording being stupid or dangerous, I was pretty clearly referring to the Kennebec crossing at Caratunk. Obviously, there are other places where fording can be done safely, and this includes some places on the A.T. in Maine.

*Wolf's comment about Steve Longley not being an authority on the Kennebec River and its fordability at Caratunk is simply not worthy of a response. Longley has forgotten more about this part of the world than Wolf ever knew.

*Tin Man: What the hell is a "professional forder" anyway? I wasn't aware that this was something people did to make a living. :D

[Lone Wolf]

Fiddlehead:

*When I referring to fording being stupid or dangerous, I was pretty clearly referring to the Kennebec crossing at Caratunk. Obviously, there are other places where fording can be done safely, and this includes some places on the A.T. in Maine.

*Wolf's comment about Steve Longley not being an authority on the Kennebec River and its fordability at Caratunk is simply not worthy of a response. Longley has forgotten more about this part of the world than Wolf ever knew.

*Tin Man: What the hell is a "professional forder" anyway? I wasn't aware that this was something people did to make a living. :D

steve doesn't ford. he knows nothing about it. neither do you

[Tin Man]

*Tin Man: What the hell is a "professional forder" anyway? I wasn't aware that this was something people did to make a living. :D

If you had read my earlier posts and addressed my main point instead of gnawing at the edges, perhaps you would understand. :D

Simply put, I would like to hear from someone who has lots of fording experience on different rivers and could give us an objective opinion of the difficulty/experience rating of the Kennebec. I think that would be much more interesting than hearing the same dogma over and over again. :)

[Lone Wolf]

the kennebec is very easy to ford early in the morning

[Tin Man]

the kennebec is very easy to ford early in the morning

yep, I have heard this dogma too. :)

screw it. since there is no risk in the Whites, I am skipping them and gonna head on up and ford for myself. :)

[drastic_quench]

Anyone who thinks it's stupid best stick to the AT and not venture onto the PCT or CDT or many other trails. Because if you do, you most likely will find yourself in a situation where you will be wishing you had more experience in fording deep and wide rivers.

Answering the end of your quote: Experience!
I'm pretty sure the difference here is the upstream power station/dam that randomly releases water - which can significantly raise the level of the river in less time than a typical fording would take. Forders can get caught in the middle. It's like having the knowledge that a flash flood WILL happen, but not being able to pinpoint the exact time. That sounds pretty frightening to me.

It's not like this river is the only opportunity for fording experience on the AT.

[fiddlehead]

Simply put, I would like to hear from someone who has lots of fording experience on different rivers and could give us an objective opinion of the difficulty/experience rating of the Kennebec. I think that would be much more interesting than hearing the same dogma over and over again. :)

I wouldn't call myself an expert or a professional. But i have forded quite a few rivers and i get scared on the really wide and deep ones.

The worst one i ever had was in the "Bob" in 2002 after snow melt and it was about as wide as the Kennebec and waist deep pretty much the whole way.
We didn't know anything about it but had to cross that river. (We were doing a 120 mile section and on day 3, with 2 more days food)
Well, that water was cold and that was the worst part. That and not knowing how deep it was going to get.
I was glad for my experience in fording although it didn't start with the Kennebec. The AT gives you a little experience and after a 5" rain can get deep but they aren't very long (not talking about the Kennebec now) I'd say more of my experience comes from the Wind river range (3 times) and the Sierras (numerous times) as well as Nepal.
Anyway, we got through that river in MT that day. IT ended, ironically, by our having to cross a beaver dam with deep water on both sides and it was not too solid and we were breaking sticks and sinking again up to my crotch sometimes.
It was ccccooold and numbing. I don't want to have to do that kind again.

So, comparatively, I'd say if you ford the Kennebec after average weather (not after a 4-7" rain storm for sure) and you ford it early in the morning, (before the dam release rises the water level) it is a fairly easy ford that gets up to crotch level for about 20 feet of the aprox 70 yard crossing. Most of the rest is knee deep.
But, i've never tried it after the release hits and have been told that you cannot stand up in it.
I would also prepare my pack to swim (no hipbelt, valuables in a garbage bag) if i didn't know what was underneath where i couldn't see.

Also my swimming experience includes 9 years of whitewater kayaking with 4 of those years without an eskimo roll (but still paddling class 4 and 5) in other words, lots of swims (although i have a pretty good brace by now) (actually gave up this sport after a very long swim in BC in '89)

So yes, i am scared of cold water that is waist deep.
But sometimes you have rivers to cross.

[Sir-P-Alot]

Fording almost any river due to slippery uneven footing and chances of getting your feet lodged is dangerous. Getting your foot lodged under a rock or crevice and then the river forcing you over and under water is the main problem. In actuality floating or swimming a river to the other side can often be safer. That is why you are told if you do end up swimming in moving water you should assume the White Water Swim position which is feet up, floating on your back. Swimming the Kennebec is not really an option with a pack. If you choose to ford you should undue your hip belt, loosen shoulder straps and use an ambulatory aid such as a staff or hiking poles. You should ford at the appropriate time (when water level is minimal) and have somebody nearby in case you run into trouble. In the event of trouble, you should loose the pack (that's why you loosened the straps) and assume the White Water Swim Position. It is not necessarily safe to ford any river, especially without assistance, a PFD or somebody trained to respond with a throw rope or rescue aid.

That being said, I forded it and loved it. It was an experience I will always remember but I could have been killed. I weighed the risk versus my experience, physical condition, and professional training.

I am certified in whitewater rescue, and white water canoeing. I have lead river trips on the Edisto, Suwanee, Cahaba, Nantahala, Flint, St. Mary's, Pee Dee, Peace, Ocmulgee, Blackwater, Ocklawaha, Silver, and Chatahoochee river. I have also personally rafted the Gauley, New, and Nolichucky, rivers. Yes, it is dangerous to ford the Kennebec (or any major river) but so are alot of other things. Their are no guarantees in life. Hopefully, anybody that believes they are prepared to ford the river and decides to do it will understand that anything could happen.

I thought it was a lot of fun, but when I got about halfway I did start wondering if I was going to make it before the river came up on me. I guess that was half the fun.

[attroll]

We need to get this back on topic instead of arguing and bickering or the thread will go away.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

May I ask a question about the Kennebec crossing while the admin are stand by with water hoses to put out any flames? If not, just delete my comment.

Why does this river have a canoe crossing instead of a bridge? Is it cost to build the bridge? Flooding would wash it away? or is there another reason?

[rafe]

May I ask a question about the Kennebec crossing while the admin are stand by with water hoses to put out any flames? If not, just delete my comment.

Why does this river have a canoe crossing instead of a bridge? Is it cost to build the bridge? Flooding would wash it away? or is there another reason?

I don't know the answer, but I'm guessing the river is about 150 yards wide at the point where the AT crosses. It's not the James River or the Delaware or the Hudson, but it would require a sizable bridge. OTOH, if they could install (relocate) that big antique steel thing over the Schuylkill in PA, I don't see why not.

[Lone Wolf]

I don't know the answer, but I'm guessing the river is about 150 yards wide at the point where the AT crosses. It's not the James River or the Delaware or the Hudson, but it would require a sizable bridge. OTOH, if they could install (relocate) that big antique steel thing over the Schuylkill in PA, I don't see why not.

the james river is bridged and it's 600 feet. surely the kennebec could be bridged. there's auto bridges already. must be a political thing

[Tin Man]

the james river is bridged and it's 600 feet. surely the kennebec could be bridged. there's auto bridges already. must be a political thing

How far is the trail crossing from a road that could support construction equipment or would they have to chopper in sections?

[warren doyle]

From what I heard, the ferry closure was for a few days, only until the high volume water levels (from many days of rainfall) went down. Jennifer Pharr Davis, on her women's endurance record attempt SOBO, said it was running again on Tuesday June 24th. It would be interesting to know adapted to it.

As for fording the Kennebec, I have safely forded the Kennebec about three dozen times over the past 35 years when water conditions permitted a safe fording for me, which I alone determine.

[Tin Man]

Thank you Fiddlehead and Sir-P-Alot. That was what I was looking for. And confirms, at least for me, that only experienced forders should consider fording the Kennebec. I would put it up there with sky-diving. Probably safe if you have been instructed, know the dangers, and are very prudent about when and where you do it.

[woodsy]

May I ask a question about the Kennebec crossing while the admin are stand by with water hoses to put out any flames? If not, just delete my comment.

Why does this river have a canoe crossing instead of a bridge? Is it cost to build the bridge? Flooding would wash it away? or is there another reason?
If there were a bridge, it would have to freespan not only the river but 100' or more on each side to stay above the ice jams that happen in winter and spring. 400' or more freespan might be prohibitively expensive, not to mention state permits, studies, and engineering.
I don't think any form of bridge supports embedded in the river would stand the pressure from these sometimes 20' tall ice jams and would probably make them worse. just my 2 cents worth.;)

[Tin Man]

If there were a bridge, it would have to freespan not only the river but 100' or more on each side to stay above the ice jams that happen in winter and spring. 400' or more freespan might be prohibitively expensive, not to mention state permits and studies.
I don't think any form of bridge supports embedded in the river would stand the pressure from these sometimes 20' tall ice jams and would probably make them worse. just my 2 cents worth.;)

Do they replace the road bridges further downstream every spring? :-?

[tlbj6142]

Why not make a cable type foot bridge? No need for any supports in the middle of the river that could be affected by ice jams. Aren't there a few of those elsewhere on the AT? 100' cable bridge doesn't seem too long to me. I'm sure there are longer ones out there.

[ki0eh]

I believe that yesterday, June 31, the NPS issued a further clarification that the tunnel concept will address the moving ice issue. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=583234&postcount=29 :)

[woodsy]

Do they replace the road bridges further downstream every spring? :-?
The ones that have been replaced over the years are now freespan.

[Appalachian Tater]

A pedestrian bridge at that point on the Kennebec is impractical because of the ice.


Why not make a cable type foot bridge? No need for any supports in the middle of the river that could be affected by ice jams. Aren't there a few of those elsewhere on the AT? 100' cable bridge doesn't seem too long to me. I'm sure there are longer ones out there.

Yes, the least impractical would be a suspension bridge but you are severely underestimating the length that would be required.

[Tin Man]

A pedestrian bridge at that point on the Kennebec is impractical because of the ice.

Other river crossings have hiking bridges that you have to go up a few steps before spanning the river.

[Appalachian Tater]

It's not impossible, just impractical.

[Jack Tarlin]

Quick query to the folks who advocate building this great, big bridge?

Who do you think is going to pay for it, and how much are you willing to contribute to this effort?

[tlbj6142]

Yes, the least impractical would be a suspension bridge but you are severely underestimating the length that would be required.I was just using the numbers listed above. Here's a 600' foot bridge. (http://www.livefromtherock.com/suspension_bridge.html)

[Alligator]

Dave Field once quoted me the estimates for a bridge there, and I believe he said that it was in the millions. Anyway, he was very knowledgeable about the possible costs and why they went with the ferry. He's a long time member of the MATC.

[Appalachian Tater]

I was just using the numbers listed above. Here's a 600' foot bridge. (http://www.livefromtherock.com/suspension_bridge.html)

Even though I am not a civil engineer, I have had courses in wood, concrete, and steel structures and even took some of those classes from a "bridge nut" and definitely understand that it is very possible, even with the ice issues.

The problem is that it would be very expensive, thus impractical. In 2006 less than 1200 hikers took the ferry. (http://www.riversandtrails.com/2006kennebecferry.html) If you look at the cost of a bridge on a per-hiker basis over its lifespan, it is much cheaper to provide the ferry and it requires no large up-front investment.

What's wrong with a canoe ride? I enjoyed mine very much. Likely there have been canoes on the Kennebec since before Europeans got here. The canoe doesn't impact the area like a bridge would and provides summer employment.

[rafe]

Gator.... or anyone else... what do you suppose was spent on that monumental boardwalk and bridge through the swamp, just south/west of Vernon NJ? That was some huge project... had to cost a pretty penny.

PS: agree with Tater's general point: what's wrong with the canoe?

[Tin Man]

Quick query to the folks who advocate building this great, big bridge?

Who do you think is going to pay for it, and how much are you willing to contribute to this effort?


I was just using the numbers listed above. Here's a 600' foot bridge. (http://www.livefromtherock.com/suspension_bridge.html)

JT, TLBJ's bridge example looks interesting.

Maybe it would be interesting in understanding a bridge engineer's viewpoint or estimate. Until we know what it would take, we cannot answer any questions about funding, etc.

[Jack Tarlin]

Terrapin:

While the NJ boardwalk project was a very serious undertaking, you're over-looking the fact that the vast majority of the work that was done on it was performed by volunteers.

This would NOT be the case with a bridge on the Kennebec. Not only would the project be much more involved, and not only would it require considerably more expensive materials, but it simply could not be built thru volunteer labor, so comparing the "pretty penny" that a Kennebec Bridge would cost as compared to a wooden walkway in a swamp built by volunteers.....well, this simply isn't a very fair comparison.

[Tin Man]

Even though I am not a civil engineer, I have had courses in wood, concrete, and steel structures and even took some of those classes from a "bridge nut" and definitely understand that it is very possible, even with the ice issues.

The problem is that it would be very expensive, thus impractical. In 2006 less than 1200 hikers took the ferry. (http://www.riversandtrails.com/2006kennebecferry.html) If you look at the cost of a bridge on a per-hiker basis over its lifespan, it is much cheaper to provide the ferry and it requires no large up-front investment.

What's wrong with a canoe ride? I enjoyed mine very much. Likely there have been canoes on the Kennebec since before Europeans got here. The canoe doesn't impact the area like a bridge would and provides summer employment.

1200? Wow. Either there are a lot of forders or I am heading to Maine for the relative solitude. :)

Forget I said anything about a bridge.

[yaduck9]

1200? Wow. Either there are a lot of forders or I am heading to Maine for the relative solitude. :)

Forget I said anything about a bridge.


LOL....I agree....

[Alligator]

Gator.... or anyone else... what do you suppose was spent on that monumental boardwalk and bridge through the swamp, just south/west of Vernon NJ? That was some huge project... had to cost a pretty penny.

PS: agree with Tater's general point: what's wrong with the canoe?I'm not familiar with all the costs off all the projects. I think I did hear millions for the boardwalk in NJ. Different issue though with different concerns.

Tater points out the idea of upfront costs. Suppose the bridge costs $1 million. Interest on that at 5% is $50,000. I think the ferryman was paid less than this. Those are just ballpark numbers though. The numbers could be had if anyone was really interested.

[gravityman]

One point is that the Foot foot bridge near Glasgow used existing pylons. This probably saved an immense amount of money. Actually, they saved $250k. The bridge cost $1.5. Let's say the same thing needed to be built across the Kennebec. That's $1.75M. It's been 10 years since the Foot bridge, so let's just say $2M.

The cost of the ferry? $20k? That's 100 years of ferry service for the cost of the bridge. Do you think the bridge would last 100 years?

Simple math says the ferry is actually a very economical way to cross the river, and also has a certain, uh, Je ne sais quoi for lack of a better phrase. How many bridges do you cross in a thru hike? Lost count? How many ferries? I bet you know the answer.

Boardwalk cost $800k and 7 years, so we are talking more than double for a Foot foot bridge style bridge.

I am guessing the shorter span is balanced by the extra cost to make it ice-proof.

Gravity

[tlbj6142]

What's wrong with a canoe ride?I have no problems with the canoe. I was just suggesting an idea for a bridge that would not be affected by ice flow or high waters. And I would think that a high cable foot bridge would cost far less than other long-span options that could withstand ice flows and/or massive flooding.

[Lone Wolf]

A pedestrian bridge at that point on the Kennebec is impractical because of the ice

no, there's already vehicle bridges

[Lone Wolf]

Quick query to the folks who advocate building this great, big bridge?

Who do you think is going to pay for it, and how much are you willing to contribute to this effort?

who paid for the Foot bridge?

[Appalachian Tater]

I have no problems with the canoe. I was just suggesting an idea for a bridge that would not be affected by ice flow or high waters. And I would think that a high cable foot bridge would cost far less than other long-span options that could withstand ice flows and/or massive flooding.And your idea would probably be the best solution for a bridge there, no doubt. Suspension bridges in general are very cost-effective, especially when a long span is involved. For a foot bridge, the effective area to be crossed by a bridge at the Kennebec is pretty long. Someone suggested above 250' because of the ice, I really don't know what the figure would be or exactly how high it would be.

The real question is, "What is the most effective way to get people across the Kennebec safely?" The best answers are probably a re-route to an existing bridge, or a boat.

There can be boating accidents, but the odds of someone being injured jumping or falling off a bridge are probably higher.

The big advantage a bridge has is availability 24/7/365, although I don't know if there is a need year-round for crossing there.

There's another question: of handicapped access. Is it required? Could such a bridge be built with steps instead of ramps as access? I just don't know the answer to that.

[attroll]

Quick query to the folks who advocate building this great, big bridge?

Who do you think is going to pay for it, and how much are you willing to contribute to this effort?
If the ATC would pay for the bridge then in the long run it would eventually be cheaper then paying the Ferryman. It would take a few years to make it worth there while but in the long run it would be worth it I think.

[jersey joe]

Is there an existing auto bridge within a mile that could be altered to accomodate foot traffic???

[attroll]

Is there an existing auto bridge within a mile that could be altered to accomodate foot traffic???
No the next auto bridge is something like 17 miles downstream.

[Appalachian Tater]

If the ATC would pay for the bridge then in the long run it would eventually be cheaper then paying the Ferryman. It would take a few years to make it worth there while but in the long run it would be worth it I think.You have to think about the time value of money. If a bridge cost just $500,000 and you got 5% return on that, it would generate $25,000 a year which would pay for the ferry. A bridge is likely to cost significantly more than that and would also require ongoing maintenance, so would never come out to be cheaper than a ferry. You also have to come up with a large chunk of money all at once instead of a little bit each year.

Also, what if a $2,000,000 bridge were built and then the trail were relocated due to a change in land use near the existing trail?

[Darwin again]

who paid for the Foot bridge?

Article by Laurie Foot is here (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.1084115/k.A600/The_James_River_Foot_Bridge.htm).
(http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.1084115/k.A600/The_James_River_Foot_Bridge.htm)


Our local club, the Natural Bridge Appalachian Trail Club, maintains a 90-mile section of the A.T. that is divided by the James River. For years, A.T. hikers had to cross it on a narrow two-lane highway bridge that was often shared with logging trucks and other traffic, and pass a hydro-electric plant and substation. It wasn't only dangerous; it was not in keeping with the remote experience that hikers had just traveled coming out of the James River Face Wilderness.
In 1991, Bill proposed that the club build a more than 600-foot hiking bridge over the James River. The size of the project didn't daunt him. He had learned from his thru-hike that dreams are built one step at a time.
Spanning the middle of the river were five abandoned railroad piers. Bill hoped they could be used to build the AT bridge. He did some research and found they were owned by a local man, Henry Smiley. Henry had owned a mining company in the area. After a hike one day, Bill and I stopped over to see Henry. We sat on his patio, drank lemonade, and listened to Henry’s stories of his mine and the piers for a couple of hours. We learned that Henry had purchased the piers from the railroad company for $125 many years ago so he could dock his houseboat in the middle of the river. But now he was 80 years old and hadn't used the piers for a long time. Bill told him of his idea for the piers. I don't think Henry was ever a hiker, and I know he prided himself on being a good businessman, but he liked the idea of those piers being used. It isn't everyday someone comes along and wants your piers. At the end of our conversation, we were surprised when he suddenly offered to sell the piers to ATC for one dollar. I guess he figured he had gotten his $124 worth of use out of them.
For the money needed to build the bridge, Bill turned to the Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act (ISTEA), later called TEA-21, funds. In order to get these grants approved, Bill had to get a number of other agencies on board. He garnered support from the board of supervisors of two counties, the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries, the Virginia Department of Conservation and Recreation, the CSX Railroad, the Virginia Department of Transportation, the George Washington and Jefferson National Forest, ATC, and NBATC. His first grant request was turned down because he didn’t realize he had to host a public hearing. He refused to be discouraged. Even a thru-hike has some rainy days. He eventually wrote four grant proposals and two of them were approved for a total of $1.5 million.



TEA-21 grants require a 20 percent match for the amount of the federal funding received. Still, $300,000 was a lot of money to raise. So, this is where things come full circle. NBATC and the ATC had those one-dollar piers appraised for what they would be worth if we had had to purchase them. That turned out to be $262,000. This value was then applied as part of our matching funds. Other donations came in the form of volunteer labor to connect the trail to the new crossing location and donated land for the project.


it's a great story. People used their brains to get it done.

[Appalachian Tater]

Yes, it is a great story. For something like that to happen, "all" it takes is one person to decide it ought to happen and work very hard to make it happen.

[Jack Tarlin]

Troll:

In recent years the ATC has laid off staff in Harpers Ferry in order to save money.

Your above post suggests that the ATC pay for this bridge.

I assure you they are in absolutely no position to do this, nor is the Maine A.T. Club.

Plus, keep in mind the figures here, both the cash figures and the number of bridge crossers.

Recently, a bridge project in Alaska was quite rightly excoriated as a pork-barrel boondoggle, when it was revealed that it'd serve a handful of people.

Well, what's the point of spending millions on a bridge that would serve such a small amount of people?

Not only would this be a poor use of scarce funds, but people would be able to point at the project, for years to come, as an example of foolish government spending. What this means is that a few years down the line, when ATC is looking for money for something more important (preservation, land acquisition, etc.), people would gleefully point to this and say "No way! We know how you guys like to toss away money! You have a history of doing so!"

Even if ATC COULD pay for this bridge (which they can't), it wouldn't be a particularly good use of money, and it would come to be seen as wasteful, foolish, and unnecessary.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

If the ATC would pay for the bridge then in the long run it would eventually be cheaper then paying the Ferryman. It would take a few years to make it worth there while but in the long run it would be worth it I think.This parallels my thinking, but I could be wrong about the costs involved. That is why I asked the question.

[Jack Tarlin]

The ATC has no interest, nor does it have remotely the capabilty of paying for a bridge over the Kennebec at this time.

[sasquatch2014]

I guess I missed why a cable crossing like those used in a lot of remote areas is not useable in this situation?

[Lone Wolf]

what cable crossings?

[sasquatch2014]

Normaly there are two towers one on each bank and the cable runs between them. A small hanging cart is connected tot he cables you get in and slide across on the cable there is normally a system (ie a rope) to pull the cart to the side of the bank you are on if it happens to be on the far bank.

[Jack Tarlin]

The old cable bridges were fun, but they were built before we became such a lawsuit-happy nation, and I suspect nobody wants the liabilty issues that would inevitably come with a cable bridge.

Plus, sooner or later, people fall off of cable bridges, and in that we're talking about a river crossing that wise people acknowledge is a dangerous one, building a bridge that people would slip off of regularly does not seem to me to be the
most prudent option.

But maybe that's just me...... :rolleyes:

[sasquatch2014]

you do understand that what I am talking about is not the old style two cable crossing where you hold the upper one with your hands and walk along the bottom one with your feet. Right?

I agree with you the chance of a lawsuites exist but don't they everywhere?

[Jack Tarlin]

Sorry. I obviously misunderstood you. But if you're talking about a cable suspension-type bridge, like the one across,say, Clarendon Gorge, I'd have to guess that the length of the Kennebec crossing would prohibit this type of construction. But I'll happily withold judgment til we hear from someone with actual engineering or bridge-building experience, which, come to think of it, would add greatly to this discussion.

[Lone Wolf]

a small skiff with an outboard motor would work much better and faster than a canoe. the former canoe guy would stand up as he ferried people across. not very safe

[The Old Fhart]

Sasquatch2014-"Normaly there are two towers one on each bank and the cable runs between them. A small hanging cart is connected tot he cables you get in and slide across on the cable there is normally a system (ie a rope) to pull the cart to the side of the bank you are on if it happens to be on the far bank."
A bosun's chair is what you mean.
4358(click on image to see larger photo)


Lone Wolf-"what cable crossings?"The only one I recall near the A.T. was at Baker Stream in Maine, not actually on the A.T. See photo on page 236-237 of Feb 1987 National Geographic article posted on WB.

[Lone Wolf]

The only one I recall near the A.T. was at Baker Stream in Maine, not actually on the A.T. See photo on page 236-237 of Feb 1987 National Geographic article posted on WB.

that was put there by the power or phone co. i was told

[Appalachian Tater]

Unless the bridge has to be of unique conception, you can always see what examples exist.

http://images.google.com/images?q=pedestrian%20bridge&sourceid=mozilla2&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

[rickb]

Its good to be reminded that some challenges are not best addressed by engineers and big solutions.

Let nature win this one and walk or canoe the river.

And let's recognize the wisdom of the MATC for not "needing" to bridge the smaller crossings in ME.

Rock hopping, shoe shucking, nature respecting can be better than maintaining a steady gait.

Their approach is part of what makes the Maine AT best.

[Appalachian Tater]

Its good to be reminded that some challenges are not best addressed by engineers and big solutions.

Let nature win this one and walk or canoe the river.

And let's recognize the wisdom of the MATC for not "needing" to bridge the smaller crossings in ME.

Rock hopping, shoe shucking, nature respecting can be better than maintaining a steady gait.

Their approach is part of what makes the Maine AT best.Well-said.

[sasquatch2014]

A bosun's chair is what you mean.
4358(click on image to see larger photo)

The only one I recall near the A.T. was at Baker Stream in Maine, not actually on the A.T. See photo on page 236-237 of Feb 1987 National Geographic article posted on WB.

Actually it is larger than a Bosun's chair and has sides that make it much safer. it is large enough that a person and their pack could easily both fit in it. I recall one that crosses the Big Horn River in MT it spans a space that seems to be nearly as wide as the Kennebec.

[sasquatch2014]

Here is a good pic of it and look at that it even has hikers in the pic. This one is on the west coast trail.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.blistersbliss.ca/070klanawa.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.blistersbliss.ca/wct2006photos.html&h=614&w=899&sz=99&hl=en&start=188&um=1&tbnid=kf22fSnf7d7igM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=146&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcable%2Bcrossings%26start%3D180%26nds p%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

[Marta]

There are loads of suspension bridges in Glacier National Park:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=25872&catid=newimages&cutoffdate=1

They leave the cables in over the winter (the cables apparently survive snow, ice, and high water), and then put the planks in in the early summer.

So how do you make a photo show up in the text?

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

So how do you make a photo show up in the text?Use the buton circled below and supply the URL of the photo
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b47/lowcarbscoop/Picture.jpg

[Appalachian Tater]

I think that the problem is more related to ice jams and related flooding affecting the bridge supports rather than the weight of accumulated snow and ice on the bridge decking. The ice on that river can be several feet thick to begin with.

Here's a good introduction to ice jams with lots of photos: http://www.crrel.usace.army.mil/icejams/tech_files/2006%20Ice%20Jams%20Intro.pdf

[Tin Man]

Here is a good pic of it and look at that it even has hikers in the pic. This one is on the west coast trail.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.blistersbliss.ca/070klanawa.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.blistersbliss.ca/wct2006photos.html&h=614&w=899&sz=99&hl=en&start=188&um=1&tbnid=kf22fSnf7d7igM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=146&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcable%2Bcrossings%26start%3D180%26nds p%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

That looks like fun. Can the ATC/MATC adopt other trail ideas, or is that against "the rules"?

[Lone Wolf]

:rolleyes:
Neither are you.

i've forded more than him. fact. don't try to bait me into a fight. bye

[Jack Tarlin]

Steve Longley has lived and worked by and on the Kennebec River for around two decades.

For anyone on this website to state with a straight face that he isn't an authority on the subject, or to imply that they know more about the river than he does, is simply ludicrous.

One might not agree with Steve on everything, but at least show him some respect. There aren't five people alive who have done more for the Appalachian Long Distance Hiking Community than Steve Longley.

[Lone Wolf]

longley canoes. i ford. i've done it more than 2 decades.

[Jack Tarlin]

Really? I thought your first long hike was in '85, Wolf.

And when were you last hiking in Maine? :rolleyes:

And regardless of the length of your own history, the truth is that you had a number of visits to the Kennebec that in most cases involved spending a few minutes by or on the river.

To compare this to a guy who's lived by the river and spent thousands of full days working the river, well this is simply no comparison. To say that Longley is no authority on the Kennebec is a statement so obviously and palpably false that it isn't worth debating.

[Tin Man]

Anyone here, besides me, concerned about a canoe accident waiting to happen?

[Lone Wolf]

Really? I thought your first long hike was in '85, Wolf.

And when were you last hiking in Maine? :rolleyes:

And regardless of the length of your own history, the truth is that you had a number of visits to the Kennebec that in most cases involved spending a few minutes by or on the river.

To compare this to a guy who's lived by the river and spent thousands of full days working the river, well this is simply no comparison. To say that Longley is no authority on the Kennebec is a statement so obviously and palpably false that it isn't worth debating.

end of this crap jack. this is why people don't come here anymore. ad nauseum

[rafe]

Anyone here, besides me, concerned about a canoe accident waiting to happen?

Not particularly. The canoe's been in service for what, about 20 years now?

[Tin Man]

Not particularly. The canoe's been in service for what, about 20 years now?

Yep, and people still ford and no one has drowned in more than 20 years.

Not promoting fording, just saying.

[Appalachian Tater]

Not particularly. The canoe's been in service for what, about 20 years now?

Me neither. The guys with the canoes are experienced. The passengers are not wearing packs and they are wearing life vests. I would put the odds of someone being injured or killed jumping or falling off a bridge higher than the odds of someone being injured or killed in the canoe. If a bridge were there, people would jump from it.

[rafe]

Whatever. Before I arrived at WB, I never knew that one's mode of crossing the Kennebec was a matter worth arguing over. Still mystified at that concept, in fact.

[Lone Wolf]

Yep, and people still ford and no one has drowned in more than 20 years.


23 years ago a person did drown. no canoe or other means was available at the time of day the person drowned. a person should have a safe way of crossing 24 hours a day

[Tin Man]

23 years ago a person did drown. no canoe or other means was available at the time of day the person drowned. a person should have a safe way of crossing 24 hours a day

I know and I am not trying to push anyone toward fording. I certainly won't be fording.

You have stated previously fording can be safe, but not 24 hours a day.

So, it's the 24 hours that is at issue? Sort of, kind of, not really like a hiker feed. Hikers don't need to be fed, they can afford their own and go out of their way to buy their food. So why can't a hiker go out of his way and follow a schedule or wait until its safe... wait for the canoe... until someone can spearhead a reasonably priced inventive bridge option? :)

Is that what is needed? Hiker patience for the canoe schedule and/or hiker patience until the bridge or other option is available? Sounds safe to me.

[woodsy]

WB member Wolf-23000 has a picture in his gallery of the Kennebec in winter with the ice jammed up 10' higher than the north side riverbank at the crossing. Take a look for yourself.
Bridge over the river Kennebec? Never Happen

[The Old Fhart]

Lone Wolf-"23 years ago a person did drown. no canoe or other means was available at the time of day the person drowned...." And since that time the vast majority of hikers take the canoe and there have been no further drownings so it looks like the ferry service is working.:D

Lone Wolf-"...a person should have a safe way of crossing 24 hours a day"
Using your 'logic', no one should ford because they won't "have a safe way of crossing 24 hours a day".:-?

No one has mentioned that while the river was too wild for the canoe service, it certainly was even worse for anyone trying to ford.

[Lone Wolf]

it can be bridged

[rafe]

Yo, TM, what exactly is the problem here? Folks who want to ford can do so, and for everyone else, between reasonable hours, there's a canoe. I recall having to wait an hour or so for the canoe... got there "too early" from Pierce Pond shelter. No biggie. What's the hurry? It's just a hike... The connection to hiker feeds? Huh? Bit of a stretch...

[Tin Man]

WB member Wolf-23000 has a picture in his gallery of the Kennebec in winter with the ice jammed up 10' higher than the north side riverbankat the crossing. Take a look for yourself.
Bridge over the river Kennebec? Never Happen

Look again at some of the bridge options posted. Some go way up and over. Sasquatch had a great option from a trail out west.

[TJ aka Teej]

Anybody notice that the original post asked a question that was never answered?
Several hikers camped at the AT parking lot on the East side, and there were at least four tents seen on the West bank, according to one of the canoe drivers.
Sounds like the Hikers handled it by waiting, like hikers do.

Why is the ferry here? Traditional boat traffic here, decades prior to Alice's death, to service the sporting camps.
Why no bridge? No money.
Why did Steve stand in the canoe? Cause that's how boatmen did it against strong currents.
Is Steve an authority? Yes.
Has Steve forded? Yes.
Is it safe to ford? Define safe.

[Lone Wolf]

it can be bridged

and power boats could be used and hours of operation coud run dawn till dusk. although at dawn it's too shallow for boats/canoes

[Appalachian Tater]

Anybody notice that the original post asked a question that was never answered?Well, let's just hope that since conditions were unsafe for a canoe that no one tried to ford.

[Lone Wolf]

Anybody notice that the original post asked a question that was never answered?

feel free to answer it if you know

[MOWGLI]

Déjà vu all over again. :p These Kennebec River threads are so predictable.

[The Old Fhart]

MOWGLI-"...These Kennebec River threads are so predictable." ...and if the Kennebec was as predictable these threads wouldn't exist.:p

[Jack Tarlin]

Touche, O.F. That last one summed it up perfectly.

[Tin Man]

feel free to answer it if you know

There you go again. Always pointing out the obvious.

What about a tow rope with a barge like in The Outlaw Josey Wales? The one where Clint Eastwood rode across the big river than cut the rope when the bad guys tried to follow.

[rickb]

For Mowglie's benefit, here is a link to a long suspension bridge in Costa Rica. Concept would probably work if you wanted it to.

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM2Q47

[Jack Tarlin]

Winters are a bit milder there. :rolleyes:

[Lone Wolf]

...and if the Kennebec was as predictable these threads wouldn't exist.:p

it's very predictable at 6 am during the normal hiking season

[MOWGLI]

For Mowglie's benefit, here is a link to a long suspension bridge in Costa Rica. Concept would probably work if you wanted it to.

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM2Q47

I've actually been on that bridge.

[Darwin again]

it can be bridged

Civil Engineering degree?

[modiyooch]

23 years ago a person did drown. no canoe or other means was available at the time of day the person drowned. a person should have a safe way of crossing 24 hours a day why should we have access 24 hours a day? Do we have to catch "the 8:15 into the city?" The weather isn't always accomodating. Have you ever had to wait for a storm to pass?

[Lone Wolf]

why should we have access 24 hours a day? Do we have to catch "the 8:15 into the city?" The weather isn't always accomodating. Have you ever had to wait for a storm to pass?

because. no. no

[jersey joe]

For Mowglie's benefit, here is a link to a long suspension bridge in Costa Rica. Concept would probably work if you wanted it to.

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM2Q47
This type of bridge seems like it works better over valleys from ridge to ridge...not very steep slopes over the Kennebec.

[rickb]

Build pylons?

But why bother?

[MOWGLI]

How about a bridge like this;

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1193/1473324346_386c11124b_o.jpg

Probably not big enough.

Here's a 400 foot long pedestrian bridge in Canada;

http://www.sceniccaves.com/green/more-news.htm#bridgeFacts

[Appalachian Tater]

There are only a few basic types of bridges and I doubt anyone around here is going to invent a new one. The structural issue there is not the span but the supports.

I still do not believe that the answer to the question "how do you get people across the Kennebec safely" is "bridge", but "ferry".

[ozt42]

I'm sure if someone were to hand the MATC a check for the several million dollars it would take to build a permanent footbridge they would be more than happy to...

The ferry is cheaper and no one has died yet...

[attroll]

Troll:

Plus, keep in mind the figures here, both the cash figures and the number of bridge crossers.
The ferryman does not get paid by number of people crossing the river. He gets a set amount each year. I will not devolge that here. It was discussed at one of the ATC meetings in 2007 by JT Horn from the ATC.


Well, what's the point of spending millions on a bridge that would serve such a small amount of people?

I think that more people use the ferry then people realize. There are not just thru hikers and section hikers using it. Many day hikers use it as well. If there was a bridge then I can guarantee that more people would be crossing.

My point was saving money in the long run. Lets say the Ferryman gets $8,000 a year to operate the ferry service. In 10 years the ATC will have paid out $80,000 for the ferry service. In 20 year the ATC will have paid $160,000. You see where I am going with this I hope. Eventually the bridge will have paid for itself rather then paying a ferryman.



Not only would this be a poor use of scarce funds, but people would be able to point at the project, for years to come, as an example of foolish government spending. What this means is that a few years down the line, when ATC is looking for money for something more important (preservation, land acquisition, etc.), people would gleefully point to this and say "No way! We know how you guys like to toss away money! You have a history of doing so!"
I think if you look at it over the long haul then it would be worth it. You have to look at the big piucture and the savings it would make in years to come after it paid for itself.

[Appalachian Tater]

My point was saving money in the long run. Lets say the Ferryman gets $8,000 a year to operate the ferry service. In 10 years the ATC will have paid out $80,000 for the ferry service. In 20 year the ATC will have paid $160,000. You see where I am going with this I hope. Eventually the bridge will have paid for itself rather then paying a ferryman.


I think if you look at it over the long haul then it would be worth it. You have to look at the big piucture and the savings it would make in years to come after it paid for itself.No, it doesn't work that way. For instance, if you put $500,000 in at just 3% after inflation then it would pay $15,000 a year from now on. Unless you could build a bridge cheaper than $500,000, a bridge would never be cheaper than a ferry. The ferry is actually MUCH cheaper than a bridge, over the long or short haul. Plus you don't have to come up with a large sum of money all at once.

[attroll]

a person should have a safe way of crossing 24 hours a day
That is another good point. People would not even be tempted or have the need to ford if a bridge existed. This would releave safety concerns. This would also keep hikers from being limited to having only two hours a day for access to the ferryman in the early part of the season and four hours mid season. This is why some fording is done that goes unreported because when hikers get to the crossing and it is not open they do not want to wait until the next day for the ferryman.


No, it doesn't work that way. For instance, if you put $500,000 in at just 3% after inflation then it would pay $15,000 a year from now on. Unless you could build a bridge cheaper than $500,000, a bridge would never be cheaper than a ferry. The ferry is actually MUCH cheaper than a bridge, over the long or short haul. Plus you don't have to come up with a large sum of money all at once.
Yes inflation. I understand inflation. If it was purchased now then it would still save money in the long run. Keep in mind the price of the ferry serices goes up yearly too.

I know the MATC and the ATC have been talking about this in the past. I can not find my notes on this to help me remember what the outcome was.

[Nearly Normal]

Why is there less water in the morning?

[Heater]

Why is there less water in the morning?

The dam releases water upstream.

[Heater]

River data. (http://waterdata.usgs.gov/me/nwis/uv?cb_all_00060_00065_00021_00020=on&cb_00060=on&cb_00065=on&format=gif_default&period=7&site_no=01042500)

[Heater]

Look at the data from the last 31 days. Check out the spike.

Last 31 days. (http://waterdata.usgs.gov/me/nwis/uv?cb_all_00060_00065_00021_00020=on&cb_00060=on&cb_00065=on&cb_00021=on&cb_00020=on&format=gif_default&period=31&site_no=01042500)

[fiddlehead]

Wow, this discussion gets pretty heated everytime it comes up.

When i hiked in '89, my friend "Party Animal" put a garbage bag inside his pack with all his stuff inside (including shoes) and tied a short rope to his pack and swam the river right where the white blazes are.

I watched. It took about 5 minutes and he didn't seem in any danger.

That's the same technique that many hikers use in the Canadian wilderness where there are no roads and fording is impossible.
There's usually a way that will work. I'm not good at waiting and yeah, maybe it'll kill me sometime but it hasn't yet and i enjoyed the ford on my SOBO hike in 2001/2002.

I think it's important for all hikers to know that the river rises at a certain time. But also that the ferry is not mandatory.
If it wasn't for lawyers and fear of them, i'd like to see a boyscout project build the damn thing. Just take it down every Nov till iceout. I know my old troop would've been into it. (probably create some engineers out of the troop)

Now, i must start counting how many times this argument comes up since i've been on whiteblaze. (maybe 6 or 7???) It's usually always the same people saying the same old stuff. Nobody is changing anyone's mind.

Peace!

Go Scouts!

[MOWGLI]

That's the same technique that many hikers use in the Canadian wilderness where there are no roads and fording is impossible.
There's usually a way that will work. I'm not good at waiting and yeah, maybe it'll kill me sometime but it hasn't yet and i enjoyed the ford on my SOBO hike in 2001/2002.



What are some of the tougher fords you've done, and how do they compare to the Kennebec?

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

It seems that my question has generated passionate responses from both sides. As I understand it, the answer to my question about why a ferry instead of a bridge is -

1. Flooding and ice jams would make designing a bridge that would remain in place tough
2. The upfront cost of building such a structure is beyond the financial capability of the ATC and the club involved.
3. The ferry is more cost effective over time than building and maintaining a bridge at the site.

And

4. The Kennebec is fordable at times so no bridge or ferry is needed (minority viewpoint)

Marta showed a reasonably inexpensive bridge design that is known to work in such conditions. I wonder if that has been considered by the ATC and club involved?

Also, since some are going to ford the river, I wonder if anything could be done to make that safer - perhaps a cable to hold while doing so? While I understand the ATC and club do not want to promote the fording, people are still doing it and their safety is important.

[TJ aka Teej]

Also, since some are going to ford the river, I wonder if anything could be done to make that safer - perhaps a cable to hold while doing so? While I understand the ATC and club do not want to promote the fording, people are still doing it and their safety is important.

A cable low enough to hold on to would snag flotsam and interfere with all the boating and rafting.

[Jack Tarlin]

Also, whoever hung the cable would inevitably have some sort of legal liability for it, which is why MATC, ATC, etc. wouldn't want anything to do with this.

[Wilson]

Look at the data from the last 31 days. Check out the spike.

Last 31 days. (http://waterdata.usgs.gov/me/nwis/uv?cb_all_00060_00065_00021_00020=on&cb_00060=on&cb_00065=on&cb_00021=on&cb_00020=on&format=gif_default&period=31&site_no=01042500)

If thats not an error, then I guess it was unfordable for 6 days straight in June.
And a couple of the morning low levels were'nt all that low.

[jlb2012]

ah yes liability - the most excellent reason nobody wants to do anything - or at least a good enough excuse

my personal idea that will never happen for just that reason: put a raised platform on each side of the river and run two cables between the platforms, have a bosun's chair suspended from the upper cable and set the lower cable such that it is easy for a person to pull themselves from one side to the other

guaranteed to never happen just because of liability

[mudhead]

ah yes liability - the most excellent reason nobody wants to do anything - or at least a good enough excuse

my personal idea that will never happen for just that reason: put a raised platform on each side of the river and run two cables between the platforms, have a bosun's chair suspended from the upper cable and set the lower cable such that it is easy for a person to pull themselves from one side to the other

guaranteed to never happen just because of liability

Imagine the locals and an excess of hooch.

Not to mention nimbys and bannanas.

[woodsy]

I have no further comments on this Kennebec business but just wanted to say :
Happy Independence Day everyone!
Carry on......

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

If thats not an error, then I guess it was unfordable for 6 days straight in June.
And a couple of the morning low levels weren't all that low.Unless I misunderstand the discussion, the ferry service had to be halted during the period mentioned as well due to the high water levels.

[Wilson]

Unless I misunderstand the discussion, the ferry service had to be halted during the period mentioned as well due to the high water levels.

Musta missed that, I don't always read all of these long threads, or every thread ...I just pipe up when I see something interesting.

A thousand apologies.:)

[modiyooch]

A cable low enough to hold on to would snag flotsam and interfere with all the boating and rafting. good point. This would apply to bridges as well.

[weary]

....I think it's important for all hikers to know that the river rises at a certain time. But also that the ferry is not mandatory. ....!
That of course is the problem. There is no "certain time" for the river to rise. The dam upstream opens and closes automatically, depending on the demand for electricity. Usually, the flow is lower in the early morning. Sometimes it is not, like the last several weeks when rainfall and the last of the snow melt poured extra water into the system.

But a malfunction of a power plants throughout most of New England can also trigger unusual early dam openings. Aside from law suits, which under Maine law, probably couldn't be won, I doubt if Boy Scouts could build a bridge. Among other problems this is a navigable river. A bridge would need to allow for passage of boats, canoes and rafts.

And heavy rains at other times would wash away a crude Boy Scout bridge. Freak storms have washed out engineered bridges in all the summer and fall months. Climate change makes the chore even more difficult. What used to be called "100-year-storms" are now occurring every 15 years.

Weary

[The Old Fhart]

Modiyooch-"good point. This would apply to bridges as well."No. Look at the 600 foot long Foot Bridge over the James River.

[Heater]

We built a pedestrian bridge over a major highway. About 250 feet across I'm guessing. If memory serves me right it was about 2.4 million total cost.

[Appalachian Tater]

While I understand the ATC and club do not want to promote the fording, people are still doing it and their safety is important.Which is why ferry service, a safe alternative, is provided. The problem at the Kennebec is getting people across the river safely.

Some people will always choose to cross the street in the middle of the block even though striped pavement, traffic and pedestrian signals, and sometimes even a traffic policeman are provided at the corner. Does that mean striped pavement needs to be provided, at additional expense, in the middle of the block?

[MOWGLI]

No. Look at the 600 foot long Foot Bridge over the James River.

As I recall, unlike the Kennebec, the James River is not really navigable much beyond the bridge, as the dam is just downstream from there. I could be wrong though.

BTW, the bridge has an inspiring story;

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.1084115/k.A600/The_James_River_Foot_Bridge.htm

Nice photos of the bridge;

http://www.bridgemeister.com/pic.php?pid=1034

[modiyooch]

No. Look at the 600 foot long Foot Bridge over the James River.nice bridge

[Nearly Normal]

You could always just walk across.
http://www.gizmag.com/go/6409/picture/28681/

[fiddlehead]

What are some of the tougher fords you've done, and how do they compare to the Kennebec?

I posted this a few pages back about one particular ford in the "Bob" in 2002:


I wouldn't call myself an expert or a professional. But i have forded quite a few rivers and i get scared on the really wide and deep ones.

The worst one i ever had was in the "Bob" in 2002 after snow melt and it was about as wide as the Kennebec and waist deep pretty much the whole way.
We didn't know anything about it but had to cross that river. (We were doing a 120 mile section and on day 3, with 2 more days food)
Well, that water was cold and that was the worst part. That and not knowing how deep it was going to get.
I was glad for my experience in fording although it didn't start with the Kennebec. The AT gives you a little experience and after a 5" rain can get deep but they aren't very long (not talking about the Kennebec now) I'd say more of my experience comes from the Wind river range (3 times) and the Sierras (numerous times) as well as Nepal.
Anyway, we got through that river in MT that day. IT ended, ironically, by our having to cross a beaver dam with deep water on both sides and it was not too solid and we were breaking sticks and sinking again up to my crotch sometimes.
It was ccccooold and numbing. I don't want to have to do that kind again.

So, comparatively, I'd say if you ford the Kennebec after average weather (not after a 4-7" rain storm for sure) and you ford it early in the morning, (before the dam release rises the water level) it is a fairly easy ford that gets up to crotch level for about 20 feet of the aprox 70 yard crossing. Most of the rest is knee deep.
But, i've never tried it after the release hits and have been told that you cannot stand up in it.
I would also prepare my pack to swim (no hipbelt, valuables in a garbage bag) if i didn't know what was underneath where i couldn't see.

Also my swimming experience includes 9 years of whitewater kayaking with 4 of those years without an eskimo roll (but still paddling class 4 and 5) in other words, lots of swims (although i have a pretty good brace by now) (actually gave up this sport after a very long swim in BC in '89)

So yes, i am scared of cold water that is waist deep.
But sometimes you have rivers to cross.


We had a lot of tough fords that year as we were in snow most of the time and had hundreds of fords, some of them tough.
The rangers in the "Bob" didn't want us going in there because they said someone had just come back out saying they couldn't get across a river. We forded that one no problem but got some bigger ones later.

When the Kennebec is normal, summer level, BEFORE the dam release (i've never tried it during or after as it takes some time to get there)
It is an easy ford comparatively. Like i said above, the problem is there because of the uncertainty of the release times.

I've said it before on here and i believe technology in today's world makes it possible but: If release times could posted with the expected time of the bubble or start of the higher levels approaching the crossing, That would take most of the worries away. Could it be done? sure! Will it be done?
Well, that brings us to the whole liabilty game and i see a few posts with that concern. THAT problem is a much bigger one.
Hey, i know my boy scout troop could've built a bridge across that river. We built one where we even made ALL of our own rope. we were 14 years old and weren't worried about liability in 1964.
Didn't some national parks remove all bridges simply because they were afraid of getting sued? It's one crazy world out there.

I imagine this post is a little long but figured i'd try to answer a few questions that i've read in the last few pages.
Happy 4th all. we had many places celebrating with fireworks over the bay here in Phuket last night.

[MOWGLI]

I posted this a few pages back about one particular ford in the "Bob" in 2002:






Thanks for posting that again. Sorry I missed it the first time.

[OregonHiker]

The ferryman does not get paid by number of people crossing the river. He gets a set amount each year. I will not devolge that here. \

Why not?

[Lone Wolf]

research it. it's easy to find

[knicksin2010]

I took a few half days when I heard it was closed, and was the 1st across on the 24th. It worked out okay because I had planned to go to Monson before resupplying. There were some Sobo's who got crossed on the 23rd by some white water raft guides. I met a nobo who did a long road walk around it, but I'm not sure how

[knicksin2010]

This is what it looked like on the 23rd about 5 pm

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/knicksin2010/100_0191.jpg

The ferry guy said it was 6 feet higher

[Wise Old Owl]

Bring your water wings & kiddy flippers....

[Bare Bear]

If you ford it just know it can be very dangerous. And if you are like me, when you meet Steve Longley and he asks how you crossed??? I felt so guilty but reminded him I had taken the canoe ride once before as well. Can't wait to go again in 09.

[warren doyle]

I have never felt guilty when I have told Steve Longley, who I respect, that I forded the Kennebec.

Speaking only for myself, (please note and comprehend bold type), I would only feel guilty if I didn't ford it.

(A proactive disclaimer: The sentence above should not be construed as bragging or a premeditated attempt to make others who choose not to ford feel guilty.)

[ozt42]

This is actually a serious question: with all of the bitching about the lack of a footbridge has there ever been a serious attempt at fund raising? A good site survey and engineering plan can run into 6 figures; an actual bridge would cost a lot more. Has anyone made the attempt or is this strictly a hot-air issue?

[RockyBob]

No the next auto bridge is something like 17 miles downstream.

Wouldn't it be easier to re-route the trail the 17 miles down to the bridge, then the 17 miles back. In the grand scheme of distance, whats another 34 miles?

Just thinking outloud.

[weary]

I think a simple canoe is far better than constructing another million dollar bridge on the Appalachian Trail. The goal is to keep the trail as simple and as primitive as possible.

Weary

[ed bell]

I think a simple canoe is far better than constructing another million dollar bridge on the Appalachian Trail. The goal is to keep the trail as simple and as primitive as possible.

WearyA very reasonable post from somebody who is very knowledgeable about the Trail in Maine and has experience with the fiscal side of preserving the land around it.

[drastic_quench]

Wouldn't it be easier to re-route the trail the 17 miles down to the bridge, then the 17 miles back. In the grand scheme of distance, whats another 34 miles?

Just thinking outloud.
How about one mile up and back to the dam? They could put in a catwalk bridge - or maybe they already have one, but I imagine it's private.

[Alligator]

Acceptable topics for this thread.
1. You were at the crossing when it was recently closed.
2. Alternative solutions to the ferry besides fording.

Discussion of fording in this thread is now off limits.

[fiddlehead]

Just wondering how hikers handled the Ferry closure.

http://www.matc.org/alerts.htm

Guess you can swim, wait, go back, or do the f word

[saimyoji]

I've forgotten: how many passengers can ride the canoe with gear? Is it feasible to use a bigger boat? Or perhaps two? How about a tethered hand-pull type ferry system (pull yourself across, but someone from the other side can pull the boat back)?

[Tin Man]

Actually it is larger than a Bosun's chair and has sides that make it much safer. it is large enough that a person and their pack could easily both fit in it. I recall one that crosses the Big Horn River in MT it spans a space that seems to be nearly as wide as the Kennebec.

Can we go back to Sasquatch's idea and talk about the merits of this type of system? Also, I have emailed the ATC to comment on the history of the Kennebec crossing and their thoughts on adapting other trail's approaches.

http://www.blistersbliss.ca/070klanawa.jpg

[weary]

Can we go back to Sasquatch's idea and talk about the merits of this type of system? Also, I have emailed the ATC to comment on the history of the Kennebec crossing and their thoughts on adapting other trail's approaches.

http://www.blistersbliss.ca/070klanawa.jpg
This thing has been studied again and again. Most recently in the late 80s, early 90s when the federal license for the dam upstream came up for renewal. Dam owners are required to provide "reasonable" accomodations for recreational use.

The reports then were that the cost of a bridge would far exceed any value saved, but I haven't followed what has happened since then.

The crossing shown in the photo would have to be far more elaborate to survive the fluctuating Kennebec river levels -- especially when the spring snow melt is combined with heavy rains.

Weary

[Tin Man]

This thing has been studied again and again. Most recently in the late 80s, early 90s when the federal license for the dam upstream came up for renewal. Dam owners are required to provide "reasonable" accomodations for recreational use.

The reports then were that the cost of a bridge would far exceed any value saved, but I haven't followed what has happened since then.

This is why I emailed the ATC. Laurie and Bob have said they would get back to us.


The crossing shown in the photo would have to be far more elaborate to survive the fluctuating Kennebec river levels -- especially when the spring snow melt is combined with heavy rains.

Weary

Indeed. It would be interesting to understand the costs and alternatives, besides a huge bridge or simply maintaining the canoe. With the interests expressed in this thread of having longer access hours and not be subjected to ferry closures, as happened in June, I thought we could have the ATC weigh in here.

[woodsy]

Indeed. It would be interesting to understand the costs and alternatives, besides a huge bridge or simply maintaining the canoe. With the interests expressed in this thread of having longer access hours and not be subjected to ferry closures, as happened in June, I thought we could have the ATC weigh in here.
The vast majority of people who use the system are quite happy and appreciative of it the way it is, theres always a few who will complain about anything...including a free canoe ride, the only one offered anywhere on the AT

[Tin Man]

The vast majority of people who use the system are quite happy and appreciative of it the way it is, theres always a few who will complain about anything...including a free canoe ride, the only one offered anywhere on the AT

That's another reason why it would be interesting to see where the ATC weighs in on the issue and just maybe put it to bed. Let's wait for their response.

[Wise Old Owl]

TM where was that picture taken? could you tell me more about it?

[Tin Man]

TM where was that picture taken? could you tell me more about it?

Sasquatch originally posted it and said it was from the West Coast Trail...

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=657663&postcount=136

[Tin Man]

I just received word that the ATC person who can respond best here is out in the field. Let's be patient for a couple of days. Thank you.

[Slimer]

If the canoe aint broke, don't fix it.

[Lone Wolf]

a bridge could be built no problem, it all boils down to money. i say the atc and matc invest in a power boat. it would be faster, safer and hold more

[Tin Man]

OK folks. We are starting to repeat ourselves here. Can we settle down and keep this thread open until the ATC gets a chance to respond like they offered? Thanks. :)

[Lone Wolf]

OK folks. We are starting to repeat ourselves here. Can we settle down and keep this thread open until the ATC gets a chance to respond like they offered? Thanks. :)

who's not settled down? the atc will respond by telling you it would cost way too much $$$ to build a footbridge

[Slimer]

Settle down??
The situation seems pretty calm to me....

[Tin Man]

who's not settled down? the atc will respond by telling you it would cost way too much $$$ to build a footbridge

I was not referring to your post, which I thought was appropriate and summed up the issue well versus the others who talk about don't fix what ain't broke. I am sure a footbridge is too expensive as well. However, there may be other alternatives or history that would be interesting to hear from the source. Maybe the ATC can clear this up for all to see. Just a thought versus continuing all the conjecture.

[Slimer]

Tin Man,
I changed my mind. I say we fix it......and keep on fixing it till it breaks.

[Lone Wolf]

other than a major relocation, things will remain the same. the ferry service is paid very well. someone will always be willing to offer the service

[Tin Man]

Tin Man,
I changed my mind. I say we fix it......and keep on fixing it till it breaks.

As threads go around here, I am sure we will. :)

That said, I thought the ATC could help by giving us something more ... and they said they would. Stay tuned.

[Alligator]

Brainstorming's fine, something interesting might get suggested.

[taildragger]

a bridge could be built no problem, it all boils down to money. i say the atc and matc invest in a power boat. it would be faster, safer and hold more

I like this idea.

Get a john boat (or something with more of a "V" hull) with a 10-20HP engine. Good stability and should be able to navigate through faster waters.

[Footslogger]

I like this idea.

Get a john boat (or something with more of a "V" hull) with a 10-20HP engine. Good stability and should be able to navigate through faster waters.

=================================

yeah ....maybe a "swamp buggy" like they use down in the Florida Keys ??

'Slogger

[weary]

I like this idea.

Get a john boat (or something with more of a "V" hull) with a 10-20HP engine. Good stability and should be able to navigate through faster waters.
Why use motors when we have a perfectly workable "people-powered" solution. If the goal is simply to get people between Springer and Katahdin as easily as possible, just pave the trail over and open it to ATVs and motor bikes.

However, if we want a primitive trail with a minimum of civilization, we already have the solution.

Weary

[Lone Wolf]

but there's only 4 hours a day to cross the river.

[weary]

but there's only 4 hours a day to cross the river.
So what? Who's racing? It's easy to adjust your schedule so as to meet the ferry. Just do it.

Weary

[Lone Wolf]

So what? Who's racing? It's easy to adjust your schedule so as to meet the ferry. Just do it.

Weary

i disagree. one should be able to cross 24 hours per day safely.

[taildragger]

Why use motors when we have a perfectly workable "people-powered" solution. If the goal is simply to get people between Springer and Katahdin as easily as possible, just pave the trail over and open it to ATVs and motor bikes.

However, if we want a primitive trail with a minimum of civilization, we already have the solution.

Weary

My thought was that it would be a more stable boat with the ability to handle a larger variance in the behavior of the river, nothing more, nothing less.

[Sly]

i disagree. one should be able to cross 24 hours per day safely.

You probably could if you offered the ferryman enough cash. Or do you think the ATC should pay him 24/7? It's obvious fording isn't safe 24/7.

Or do you think they should build a 2 million $$ bridge (my estimate).

Speak!

[Lone Wolf]

build a footbridge for sure

[Sly]

Yeah, it would be nice. Suspended high off the water, so no ice flows bust it up.

One accident with the ferry where someone got hurt would likely cost more in damages.


build a footbridge for sure

[Lone Wolf]

all the years steve was the feryman i never heard of the canoe tipping. i wonder what would happen if the canoe tips and the hiker's gear is lost. who pays for new equipment?

[Sly]

Actually, I think you need to sign a waiver. I was talking more about injury or death, but a good lawyer should be able to get around a waiver