View Full Version : This is a gun thread.
I just thought I'd tell everyone up front.
I'm a slight gun enthusiast...I only say slightly because I'm not a die-hard packing heat all the time and brag about my guns. I've got a .22 rifle and a Ithica Featherweight. Both were given to me.
I don't however have a handgun, and would like to better train and educate myself on owning one. I do believe that handguns are an effective and sometimes (very rarely) useful part of self defense. That's my opinion, and I've done enough reading to form that opinion. Please don't lecture me.
I don't need nor want a big gun. I'm not looking BLAST TERRORISTS or anything like that. Nor do I think I'll ever run into a situation on the trail where I'd need a gun, however, I'm not opposed to carrying one.
I really like what I've been hearing about the Ruger LCP .380. Small, cheap, reliable, accurate, but I don't think it would do much against an animal at night.
My other option is bearspray/pepperspray. Much more effective on the trail against possible angry animals (humans included). However, the bear spray I've seen thus far looks awkward to carry, and ranges between 40-60 bucks.
Best pepper spray/bear spray and holster/carrying device? I dont use trekking poles.
Could spray and a knife be just as effective as a gun on the trail? (worst case scenario)
What situation could require a gun over spray?
Please NO politics or preaching.
Lone Wolf
07-08-2008, 10:27
Trebuchet for the trail is the first line of defense
this is a gun thread
I am also a "slight gun enthusiast", I would say. I see guns as a useful tool for the right situation.
My question to you is, what would your primary purpose for carrying a handgun on the trail be? If it is for self-defense against predators, you would almost have to open carry so that the gun is accessible. The down side to that is that people that are not-at-all-gun-enthusiasts will treat you strangely. You may say that is their problem and you would be mostly right, but it is still a factor.
To me, the same points you make about bear spray, (bulky, awkward to carry, expensive) apply also to handguns.
In answer to your question about bear spray and a knife: The chances of you being attacked by a bear are practically zero, but if you are, a knife is not going to help you. A bear has a bunch of knives on the end of each paw.
Old Grouse
07-08-2008, 10:43
I don't think a .380 is going to do much good as a defense against a black bear, even with your luckiest or best shot.
Tipi Walter
07-08-2008, 10:46
Why isn't this in the non-AT forum??
Survivor Dave
07-08-2008, 10:47
Why isn't this in the non-AT forum??
The Non AT forum is closed at this time.
Just the sound of the gun would prob scare off a bear but I don't think you have much to worry about if you keep your camp clean. It would also be very effective for humans IF you should ever need it.Unless you are skilled in the art of knife fighting I would'nt even go there unless last resort.380 would be fine for hiking.
but bear spray, if it doesn't drive it off and using a knife at the moment of attack might inflict enough pain to show it that your a fighting animal...then again, at that point a bear likely wouldn't care.
On carrying spray vs gun, spray is a 3-4" canister with an awkward firing mechanism, where as the LCP or other CC gun can fit in your pocket.
I could go out into the woods with nothing, which has worked in the past, but I haven't done much solo backpacking, mostly just day hikes on well used trails.
Alligator
07-08-2008, 10:53
Why isn't this in the non-AT forum??
The Non AT forum is closed at this time.It's fine here. He has a right to ask these questions.
Maybe you folks could show a little civility here on such a hot button topic:-?. (This is not in reference to the posted quotes).
Guns are needed on the AT about as much as condoms... Not likely you'll ever get/need to use one.
4eyedbuzzard
07-08-2008, 10:54
I really like what I've been hearing about the Ruger LCP .380. Small, cheap, reliable, accurate, but I don't think it would do much against an animal at night. It definitely isn't a weapon one would choose for protection against bear or other wild animals. Firing a handgun a night raises additional issues of getting flash blinded. FLash suppressed pwders help, but only to a degree. And these small pistols definitely aren't the best choice as a primary carry piece either. They compromise effectiveness for size and weight. I own and carry a Kel-Tec P3AT. The Ruger is pretty much a clone. Kahr has also come out with a similar, though higher priced .380. They are back-up guns. They're meant to save your butt in a close in attack when there is no other option.
My other option is bearspray/pepperspray. Much more effective on the trail against possible angry animals (humans included). However, the bear spray I've seen thus far looks awkward to carry, and ranges between 40-60 bucks.
$40 to $60 is expensive but you're considering a handgun at $250 to $300(+ then start buying ammo)? Even a small handgun is awkward to carry most times, and there are the major additional issues of always keeping it secured and knowing and abiding by the applicable carry and knowing deadly force use laws.
Best pepper spray/bear spray and holster/carrying device? I dont use trekking poles.
I've never used them. Note though that spray is also illegal in NP's under current National Park regs in the lower 48 as it is classified as a weapon. Bear sprays are all pretty much the same though - they're pepper spray. You need a lot more of it though than the little 2 oz things they sell as human deterrents. Bear spray cannisters are usually 8 to 16 oz.
Could spray and a knife be just as effective as a gun on the trail? (worst case scenario) Spray is very likely better against a bear in the event of an attack. A charging bear would be an almost impossible shot with a handgun of any caliber in the one second or so you'd have to respond, and a .380 definitely ain't the weapon of choice. A knife is good for all sorts of camping things but I don't consider it a weapon unless you're trained to use it as such in hand to hand combat. I think a knife would be useless against a bear.
What situation could require a gun over spray?
Too broad and hypothetical. I THINK I'd much rather have spray against a bear, and even against an unarmed human, and a handgun against an armed human - in most situaions. But I've never been in a such a situaton, so who knows.
I want to thank the mods for helping keep the thread clean.
I'm thinking the sound of a gunshot would be enough to scare off a bear, and at the very least I've got a few shots to let it know its being hit.
bloodmountainman
07-08-2008, 10:56
Just the sound of the gun would prob scare off a bear but I don't think you have much to worry about if you keep your camp clean. It would also be very effective for humans IF you should ever need it.Unless you are skilled in the art of knife fighting I would'nt even go there unless last resort.380 would be fine for hiking.
I carry a pack of firecrackers to ward off bears....... never had to use 'em.
If you run into human predators.....well you are in trouble anyway, and ANYTHING can be used as a weapon in that case!
Alligator
07-08-2008, 10:57
Guns are needed on the AT about as much as condoms... Not likely you'll ever get/need to use one.He asked not to be preached or lectured too. He did it politely too.
So what your saying is,
If I get mauled by a bear, I want you all to remember me.
I hope I look scary to the hobo waiting to attack me.
Guns are needed on the AT about as much as condoms... Not likely you'll ever get/need to use one.
but if I do use either, more than likely its for a damn good cause.
He asked not to be preached or lectured too. He did it politely too.
I'm not preaching, or lecturing, just giving my opinion. :rolleyes:
I'm also looking at the gun from more than a trail use point of view as well. For targets/fun, living in the city (which I actually want to do), personal protection, etc.
Again, spray might work just as well if an intruder is in my house or on the street.
but if I do use either, more than likely its for a damn good cause.
Yeah, gotta agree there!
Pedaling Fool
07-08-2008, 11:02
... Note though that spray is also illegal in NP's under current National Park regs in the lower 48 as it is classified as a weapon. Bear sprays are all pretty much the same though - they're pepper spray. You need a lot more of it though than the little 2 oz things they sell as human deterrents. Bear spray cannisters are usually 8 to 16 oz....
I did not know that. Pepper spray illegal in NPs? Does this include sprays specifically designed for use against bears?
Tipi Walter
07-08-2008, 11:03
Read Doug Peacock's book Grizzly Years and get a better attitude towards bears. He spent a tour in Vietnam as a Green Beret medic and when he got back he grabbed his backpack and hit the woods. In the beginning he carried a few weapons and had a good story of blowing away a public phone booth with a shotgun when the operator wouldn't return his money, etc.
He spend many years with the grizzlies and said he'd never fire on one, his days of killing were over.
Wise Old Owl
07-08-2008, 11:05
We have seen several theads like this before in the Sensitive Topic area, some folks are licenced here for concealed weapons and carry a very lightweight large grain handgun on the trail. In order to get better answers to your thought's you would need to be a donating member to access that area. (See front page top right corner) A breif synopsis of what I have read on those long threads.
1. Feel free to have a handgun legally. (With the Proper permits & course training)
2. The odds of needing to use a weapon are almost zero.
3. protection against animals - not needed.
4. it is extra weight.
5. having such a weapon will raise concerned stares from Law Enforcement when you pass though trail towns.
6. If others on the trail "know or discover" you have a weapon on the trail, well you will be avoided.
I hope that helps.
This tread runs the risk of being moved to the sensitive topic area shortly.
Wise Old Owl
07-08-2008, 11:09
I carry a pack of firecrackers to ward off bears....... never had to use 'em.
If you run into human predators.....well you are in trouble anyway, and ANYTHING can be used as a weapon in that case!
Most Backcountry Rangers & park personel carry bottle rockets to move bears off the trail.
Tipi Walter
07-08-2008, 11:10
There's also the backpacker's creed: Never take something you don't use everyday. This isn't exact, as you may take out a rain jacket and use it only once. Or the rain fly to your tent if it doesn't rain the whole time you're out, but you take it anyway. But a weapon? Why pack something that is never used and is just dead weight in the pack?
All my questions have been answered.
Since I don't want the thread to go out of control, mods can lock it.
I will continue as is, poor college students don't need to spend money, and I need to do more hiking, less buying.
Thanks all.
Serious question -- does anyone know of any example on the AT where a hiker needed or used a gun to fight off a bear? Are there any examples of AT hikers having to deploy bear spray to save their life?
Alligator
07-08-2008, 11:15
The OP's questions were answered to his satisfaction. PM sent to John B about his last question. Thanks to everyone for a reasonable discussion. Easiest gun thread in the history of WB!