View Full Version : Bear Protection - guns or spray?
tlbj6142
07-08-2008, 12:03
Frankly, bear spray is primarily for grizzlies and the more agressive black bears of the west. In the east, if you see a black bear it will run 95% of the time the moment it sees you. And if they don't run, they just waddle off or just watch curiously. Those that show no immediate fear of you can be chased off with pots/pans, rocks or sticks.
FWIW, bear spray is quite effective, but you have to use it when the bear is very, very close (10-15' or less) and make good facial contact.
Frankly, bear spray is primarily for grizzlies and the more agressive black bears of the west. In the east, if you see a black bear it will run 95% of the time the moment it sees you. And if they don't run, they just waddle off or just watch curiously.
That's been my experience out west too, although the percentage could be higher. Also, from what I've seen, griz will also run.
taildragger
07-08-2008, 12:20
http://cloudline.org/
In his movie (was one TV one day) this guy uses his pepper spray once or twice during a whole season on raising two grizz cubs in the wilds of Russia.
If you don't make the bear mad or scared it will most likely leave you alone.
sheepdog
07-08-2008, 13:23
I had a friend on a backpacking trip in Michigan who had a black bear charge him several times. It would stop about 15 feet away and pop its jaws. The bear was between them and their packs. They ended up backing away and the bear had his way with the packs. Bear spray might have been handy then.
NICKTHEGREEK
07-08-2008, 15:55
Hopefully the bear will be downwind, upwind in a stiff blow and you spray yourself. Stuff is a bit pricey for target practice too.
oldfivetango
07-08-2008, 16:23
Better to have it and not need it...........
Works great on unruly humans and/or their like minded dogs.........
Looks "natural" or less intimidating than a firearm to most people
and beats having nothing if an animal or person is intent on harming
you.
Be prepared to be laughed at if you carry it though.
Oldfivetango
Hopefully the bear will be downwind, upwind in a stiff blow and you spray yourself. Stuff is a bit pricey for target practice too.
I choked at the $45 price tag at the ranger station in Glacier. Especially when I read the fine print and noticed that they recommended buying an extra can to practice with. No one in my party carried the spray; many other hikers who started the same day we did carried it; none of them used it; none of us were bitten up by bears, though most of us saw one.
Good point about the wind direction. I used many a can of pepper spray against dogs when I did a lot of cycling. One windy day I sprayed towards a Doberman. The wind whipped some spray into the eyes of my little son, who was sitting in the baby seat behind me. He did not enjoy that.
Better to have it and not need it...........
When do you stop adding gear that may not be needed?
oldfivetango
07-08-2008, 21:58
When do you stop adding gear that may not be needed?
See post 6.
Oldfivetango
Protection against a bear is one of those things that you will probably never need, but if you do need it, you need it very badly. I personally avoid hiking where there are grizzlys but would feel comfortable doing it if I was carrying a shotgun loaded with slugs.
I revolver saved these guys' lives!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMbnmLLnsfw
Odd Thomas
07-10-2008, 01:58
I revolver saved these guys' lives!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMbnmLLnsfw
Holy crap! They needed a bigger gun!
I ran into a few bears hiking in Michigan’s UP, I had spray but never felt I had to use it. The bears just looked at me and walked off.
sheepdog
07-12-2008, 15:41
In alaska they told me, "Don't worry a bear will only attack you only when it's provoked. The trouble is, it's up to the bear to decide if it's provoked or not." Most bears walk or run away. Sometimes they don't.
take-a-knee
07-12-2008, 17:18
In alaska they told me, "Don't worry a bear will only attack you only when it's provoked. The trouble is, it's up to the bear to decide if it's provoked or not." Most bears walk or run away. Sometimes they don't.
Yes, Alaskan bears can have tremendous size and short tempers, but even they are no match for a skilled handgunner:
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=14970
yes, Alaskan Bears Can Have Tremendous Size And Short Tempers, But Even They Are No Match For A Skilled Handgunner:
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=14970
One In A Million.
Grenade launcher . . . a little on the heavy side, but sure to get the job done! :p :eek:
This pdf file for Grade Seven students in Ontario is particularly useful.
The last few pages include very specific "Bear Wise" brochures for hiking, camping, etc.
http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/197046.pdf
They advise carrying bear spray, among other things, but to be aware of its limitations.
They advise carrying a long handled axe in the back country. It's a very good read.
WalkingStick75
07-13-2008, 11:13
Couple years ago I was e-mailed some photos of a hiker in Alaska that "attempted" to shoot a grizzlie with a handgun, 38 cal I think. The ranger that found the remaining parts of the hiker tracked the grizzlie down. He emptied his clip from his 7mm into the bear starting at about 50 yards finally dropping him within spitting distance. If I'm in grizzlie's back yard I want a rifle if I choose to carry a gun but I would at least carry the spray.
Bear Protection - guns or spray?Here in the northeast, I've never carried either, nor have I ever needed either. Black Bear population in Maine alone stands at 23,000 according to wildlife officials.
fiddlehead
07-13-2008, 12:03
I was charged by a black bear in VA on my thru in '95. It had 2 cubs and i surprised the 3 of them.
It charged me till it got about 8 feet away, stopped, stood up on it's hind legs and roared. Then it ran back to the cubs and then charged me again. 3 times it did this, each time i was a little further away as i was backing up when it wasn't looking (didn't want to show fear or aggression) Finally i got to a turn in the trail and took off back the way i came.
Had i had bear spray and used it, i have a feeling i wouldn't be alive today. Who knows?
I do carry it in Griz country but have not needed it although i had the safety off with my finger on the trigger already. (a griz was coming my way, with the wind blowing the wrong way and he didn't know i was there. I moved fast and got over the pass about a mile ahead with my finger on that trigger)
Anyway, in retrospect, i don't think you need it for the eastern black bears.
Another time i had a big brown bear that was sleeping on the opposite side of a huge blowdown and i was jumping over it and shockingly (adrenalin helped) jumped over him. It woke him up and he was mad. He started coming after me but my buddy, who was right behind me shouted and he changed his mind. Bear spray would have not been in my hand or handy enough to use in that situation (and it was in CO where i wasn't expecting any kind of bear as i have only seen 2 or 3 in the whole state in perhaps 2,000 miles of hiking in that state)
So, i wouldn't carry it on the AT.
Next thought: my can of bear spray is now 11 years old. Should i trust it?
Next thought: ever read Lewis & Clark's journals? They shot grizzlies up to 11 shots hitting it with a 50 caliber ball and it still kept coming. And some of you think that a handgun is going to do something? (maybe the grizzlies were stronger then, aye?)
Pedaling Fool
07-13-2008, 12:12
...
Next thought: ever read Lewis & Clark's journals? They shot grizzlies up to 11 shots hitting it with a 50 caliber ball and it still kept coming. And some of you think that a handgun is going to do something? (maybe the grizzlies were stronger then, aye?)
Faulty analogy. Can't compare weapons from that era to today's.
NICKTHEGREEK
07-13-2008, 12:25
I was charged by a black bear in VA on my thru in '95. It had 2 cubs and i surprised the 3 of them.
It charged me till it got about 8 feet away, stopped, stood up on it's hind legs and roared. Then it ran back to the cubs and then charged me again. 3 times it did this, each time i was a little further away as i was backing up when it wasn't looking (didn't want to show fear or aggression) Finally i got to a turn in the trail and took off back the way i came.
Had i had bear spray and used it, i have a feeling i wouldn't be alive today. Who knows?
I do carry it in Griz country but have not needed it although i had the safety off with my finger on the trigger already. (a griz was coming my way, with the wind blowing the wrong way and he didn't know i was there. I moved fast and got over the pass about a mile ahead with my finger on that trigger)
Anyway, in retrospect, i don't think you need it for the eastern black bears.
Another time i had a big brown bear that was sleeping on the opposite side of a huge blowdown and i was jumping over it and shockingly (adrenalin helped) jumped over him. It woke him up and he was mad. He started coming after me but my buddy, who was right behind me shouted and he changed his mind. Bear spray would have not been in my hand or handy enough to use in that situation (and it was in CO where i wasn't expecting any kind of bear as i have only seen 2 or 3 in the whole state in perhaps 2,000 miles of hiking in that state)
So, i wouldn't carry it on the AT.
Next thought: my can of bear spray is now 11 years old. Should i trust it?
Next thought: ever read Lewis & Clark's journals? They shot grizzlies up to 11 shots hitting it with a 50 caliber ball and it still kept coming. And some of you think that a handgun is going to do something? (maybe the grizzlies were stronger then, aye?)
The same point crossed my mind about Lewis and Clark and that big Brown bears were the only thing that left the indians quaking with fear. I carried a mil issue 45 on a fishing trip to Kodiak Island decades ago and after my first peek at a Kodiak Bear, I knew I was way down on the food chain gun or no.
fiddlehead
07-13-2008, 12:27
ever fire a 50 caliber gun? I blew a limb off a tree that was about 4 inches thick once.
Do i think i could hit a charging griz?
Do you?
With your pistol?
fiddlehead
07-13-2008, 12:29
sorry Nick, i was answering John Gault and not you. We must've been typing at the same time. I should've used the quote feature but got lazy.
As someone does the Fundy Footpath with a small child, I thought this was a very interesting article.
http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/fear_of_bears_flourishes_while_son_sleeps_unperter bed/C41/L41/
The article raises two important issues...
1. Particular concerns when hiking and camping in a small group with small children.
2. Particular concerns while sleeping, and best defence while in a tent.
Of course that was Grizzly country, and this is not. Still, I think the most serious issue regarding Black Bear would be when hiking in very small groups with small children. One adult and one child is perhaps the extreme case, though I think a smaller woman and child would be even more extreme. Margaret and I got sniffed at last summer at Tweedle-Dee Tweedle-Dum Falls in the early morning. Might have been a racoon. Didn't see. Her pack and sneakers got dragged about, but not opened. Our food was hung away as it should have been. I had a small hatchet.
Here are some things I will do this year, so far, but I intend to research it further...
For me...
1. Large wooden hiking staff like 6' weighing about 2 pounds.
2. I don't sleep inside my sleeping bag when with her. Just a blanket.
3. Small hatchet about 1 pound. Most useful in tent I think.
4. Air horn. Whistle.
5. Bear spray ???
For her...
1. Large wooden hiking staff in here size. Perhaps 4' weighing 0.5 pounds.
2. I think inside a sleeping bag is OK for her. I keep her very close also.
3. Air horn. Whistle.
For where we hike, the jury is still out on bear spray. The article above suggests it is no good in a tent. Also, it has other limitations and issues and is only part of a system, and it doesn't fit in with all my other stuff, which is all useful for other purposes and therefore more likely to be on hand and practiced. Most likely they will be just sniffing around. Premature use of bear spray might make things worse, especially if there are cubs about. My other concern is what Margaret's reaction might be, and how that might effect the bears. We have talked about bears, but we haven't practiced what to do in an encounter. We should. We will. On our trip last summer I read her some Indian legends which included one or two on bears, and that was very helpful. I think I will use that Ontario material this summer, starting with some education about bears, and also practicing what to do if we see one.
Here is that Ontario "Bear Wise" stuff again.
She will be entering grade 4, so I guess we will start there, read it before our trip.
http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/Business/Bearwise/2ColumnSubPage/196968.html
I think it is very important to focus on education, especially with kids,
because without that all they are getting is the fear, and none of the good stuff.
ever fire a 50 caliber gun? I blew a limb off a tree that was about 4 inches thick once.
Do i think i could hit a charging griz?
Do you?
With your pistol?
Sorry but a 50 cal muzzle loader will not blow a 4 inch branch off a tree unless it’s a dead tree with a very dry branch. In that case any gun (even a 22 LR) will break the branch. We all have scavenged for fire wood, and know that a dry, long dead piece of wood breaks very easy with only hand pressure or by stepping on it. But that also a green alive branch can be extremely hard to break. And a 4 inch branch is more a tree, then a branch and it’s very hard to break.
A muzzle loader, while large (a 50 cal is a ½ inch bullet across its diameter) it uses black powder and doesn’t match the energy in modern smokeless firearms.
If you were to shoot a 4 inch branch with just about every hand held gun (handgun and rifle) made it would just punch a hole in the branch. Small hole going in and larger one going out, but the branch would stay right where it is.
Do I think I could hit a charging bear with a pistol?
Yes I can. I hit a charging German Shepard dog once on the first shot with a 357 Mag, it’s a lot smaller then a bear.
Also a pistol has 6-shots, a muzzle loader has 1, then you have to reload it, this takes 45 seconds (if you are really good at it) to 1 ½ min. All the while you may have an upset charging bear.
I don’t think most pistols or a 50 cal muzzle loader is a good choice for a grizzly or polar bear. The larger, higher energy pistols are enough for a black bear.
Brown bears should be given the privilege of being shot with a high power rifle or a slug gun, the rifle being the better choice.
I think a person that wants to have a gun on them should have the legal right to. If you don’t like guns don’t carry one, but please respect others and give them the right to choose what they want to have on them.
I almost never take a handgun with me when out in the wild unless the purpose of the trip is to target shoot or hunt, and when hunting it’s a single shot handgun. I do at times take a folding shotgun camping.
After having what seemed like a somewhat wild dog come at me once. I now always have a can of pepper spray.
fiddlehead
07-13-2008, 13:30
Well, if you ever hike the AT, stop in at Eckille Shelter and ask the caretaker there. It was his gun. He was quite surprised too.
It is you who may upset the bear by shooting at it. not me.
I pissed off two bears already (as i mentioned above) and shooting at them probably would've gotten me killed.
A good person knows their limitations, if you can’t shoot well, it’s best you don’t carry a gun.
But don’t push your anti-gun views or limitations onto others.
I had to spray a young boar black bear that I had stalking me in Mass: I happened to look behind me and saw this bear fallowing me with his head down ears back and methodically walking me down. No mater how loud I yelled or how big I made my self look he kept coming. I kept backing away and yelling for about 100 yards or so. When I decided to hold my ground (check the wind) and spray the bear at about 10 feet.(I had the spray in a water bottle pocket) I hit him with about a 3 second blast. At first I thought it was not going to work and I was a dead man, when the bear raised his head. Look at me like he was going to charge or what the F##K. Then he turned and rad away at light speed. Was I glad my wife made me take that bear spray then!!!!!!
Now these are Grizzles but would you be ready!
Are you ready and fast enough?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMbnmLLnsfw
These guys where ready!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZnsL7-UdGc&feature=related
Interesting discrepency over bear population in Algonquin Provincial Park.
this says 1 for every 3 square kilometers, and that sightings are rare
http://www.algonquinpark.on.ca/nature/mammals/bear.html
this says 1.8 bears per 3 square kilometers, and that this is very dense due to hunting ban
http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/197046.pdf (see page 52)
I guess its all in the context of what they are trying to teach.
More fun resources from the Ontario...
Are you Bear Wise?:
http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/Business/Bearwise/2ColumnSubPage/STEL02_167694.html
Bear Facts:
http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/Business/Bearwise/2ColumnSubPage/STEL02_167693.html
That was on page 28 of 52. Sorry.
NICKTHEGREEK
07-13-2008, 14:47
sorry Nick, i was answering John Gault and not you. We must've been typing at the same time. I should've used the quote feature but got lazy.
No problem, no apology needed.:)
take-a-knee
07-13-2008, 14:54
I was charged by a black bear in VA on my thru in '95. It had 2 cubs and i surprised the 3 of them.
It charged me till it got about 8 feet away, stopped, stood up on it's hind legs and roared. Then it ran back to the cubs and then charged me again. 3 times it did this, each time i was a little further away as i was backing up when it wasn't looking (didn't want to show fear or aggression) Finally i got to a turn in the trail and took off back the way i came.
Had i had bear spray and used it, i have a feeling i wouldn't be alive today. Who knows?
I do carry it in Griz country but have not needed it although i had the safety off with my finger on the trigger already. (a griz was coming my way, with the wind blowing the wrong way and he didn't know i was there. I moved fast and got over the pass about a mile ahead with my finger on that trigger)
Anyway, in retrospect, i don't think you need it for the eastern black bears.
Another time i had a big brown bear that was sleeping on the opposite side of a huge blowdown and i was jumping over it and shockingly (adrenalin helped) jumped over him. It woke him up and he was mad. He started coming after me but my buddy, who was right behind me shouted and he changed his mind. Bear spray would have not been in my hand or handy enough to use in that situation (and it was in CO where i wasn't expecting any kind of bear as i have only seen 2 or 3 in the whole state in perhaps 2,000 miles of hiking in that state)
So, i wouldn't carry it on the AT.
Next thought: my can of bear spray is now 11 years old. Should i trust it?
Next thought: ever read Lewis & Clark's journals? They shot grizzlies up to 11 shots hitting it with a 50 caliber ball and it still kept coming. And some of you think that a handgun is going to do something? (maybe the grizzlies were stronger then, aye?)
You need to stick with what you know about Fiddle, you obviously don't know sh#t from shinola about handguns and terminal ballistics:
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=14970
Hey ... don't tell me I can't carry a Bear .... I just got my concealed Bear permit last week.
The Shoulder holster is a bit tricky though ...
And reloading it is a real challenge ....
I would imagine you have to qualify separately with bear.
It seems to me like it would be highly specialized.
I am not even sure my clearance level permits me to even think about such things,
and I am cleared to Rumour and Speculation, which is just about as high as it gets. ;)
take-a-knee
07-13-2008, 15:10
One In A Million.
Thanks for the compliment, but there are quite a few as capable. It is called the conditioned response, you will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.
That is a good point, but also somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophesy. If we condition ourselves to default to our level of training, in all situations, we might be overly limiting ourselves unneccessarily.
I can't see where bear spray would be very useful on the AT .... perhaps in the Smokey's???
Bearspray is great for all the dogs you meet on the trail, however .... I've ran into more than several in my day.
We are planning on carrying some in Glacier next week, however.
As for myself ..... I don't need a gun .... the sound of my Sphincter blowing out would scare any animal for miles.
Definitely a most useful principle in crisis situations, particularly true for large mutually dependant groups. Somewhat less applicable to individuals and very small mixed groups, or complex situations that might not be completely understood, anticipated, or trained for, but still a very useful principle.
Personally I think carrying a large stick and practicing with it, and learning about bears from a more of a detached scientific approach than a paramilitary one is the way to go, but that might not be best for everyone. My main point is this. Unlike military or firefighting or similar group training, I think education and training and preparation for outdoor recreational activities and general self-defence are best developed and adapted by an individual for an individual to suit his/her own circumstances. For myself and my family, its education and general fitness and well-being first. In the end equipment and methods may not be all that different, but as far as overall approach and philosophy I think there is more than one way to skin a cat here. YMMV.
Despite my military background, I think my approach has more to do with my years of competition in small boat sailing, single-handed at that, and my academic background. If I had put more time in the military and less time on the race course that would very likely be reflected in my approach, and I would likely be better prepared in many respects, but that's just not where I am coming from.
To each there own.
My above post was refering to Take-A-Knee's post...
Thanks for the compliment, but there are quite a few as capable. It is called the conditioned response, you will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.I think it is a very good principle, and one which I need to put more emphasis on. You can put too much emphasis on it, at the expense of other things, but its a critical component, and any such training is often portable to preparation for other things. First Aid is a good example of that.
I forgot this was the straight forward thread. I thought it was the other one. Sorry.
fiddlehead
07-13-2008, 19:22
You need to stick with what you know about Fiddle, you obviously don't know sh#t from shinola about handguns and terminal ballistics:
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=14970
Ahh, but I've seen 11 grizzlies, and close to a hundred black bears in the wild, while hiking alone and scared a few of them already and I'm still alive.
Why don't you go try that with your handgun and see if you can say the same.
take-a-knee
07-13-2008, 19:46
Ahh, but I've seen 11 grizzlies, and close to a hundred black bears in the wild, while hiking alone and scared a few of them already and I'm still alive.
Why don't you go try that with your handgun and see if you can say the same.
I've seen quite a few grizzlies myself, one at about 25yd above timberline in McKinley Park. Only tree-hugging idiots prance around in Alaska in bear country (especially near the coast, they are more territorial there) without a 44mag pistol or even better, a Marlin Guide Gun. Charging bears are stopped quite often there, by people who've lived to tell the tale. I know a guy who's jumped out of an airplane without a reserve parachute, that doesn't mean it was a smart thing to do. As the bear population grows in the lower 48, we'll have more attacks, you can bank on it. I remember the "Pre-Meredith" gun threads here, only the die-hards still rant about other people arming themselves.
If a person uses spray, how long does it take for the bear to return to the area. I've heard that it scares them off, but they come back. I guess they come back pretty mad. So how much time does anybody have? Does somebody know?
whitefoot_hp
07-13-2008, 20:01
i just rely on nature and odds. both are on your side. carry a knife.
sheepdog
07-13-2008, 20:02
When we salmon fished in alaska we carried a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs. We bumped bears but they ran away or we circled around them. Most likely a black bear will run away. Many have hiked the trail without incident. If carrying bear spray makes you feel better, carry it.
Lone Wolf
07-13-2008, 20:03
carry a knife.
great for slicing onions, peppers and carrots
I've seen quite a few grizzlies myself, one at about 25yd above timberline in McKinley Park. Only tree-hugging idiots prance around in Alaska in bear country (especially near the coast, they are more territorial there) without a 44mag pistol or even better, a Marlin Guide Gun. Charging bears are stopped quite often there, by people who've lived to tell the tale. I know a guy who's jumped out of an airplane without a reserve parachute, that doesn't mean it was a smart thing to do. As the bear population grows in the lower 48, we'll have more attacks, you can bank on it. I remember the "Pre-Meredith" gun threads here, only the die-hards still rant about other people arming themselves.
First, actually, you're woefully uninformed on the topic. There is a member or Whiteblaze who lives in Alaska, and who walked and paddled 1000 miles across the Brooks range (http://www.bucktrack.com/Alaska_Brooks_Range_Traverse.html). He is a very experienced hiker, and hardly a "tree hugging idiot." On his 600 mile walk across the Brooks Range, he carried no firearm. I'm sure he'd add to this discussion, but he is currently hiking the CDT.
Secondly, there is no such place as "McKinley Park."
Lastly, I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds it outrageous that you try and use the memory of Meredith to advance your selfish agenda. Have you no shame?
take-a-knee
07-13-2008, 20:50
Yes MOWGLI, I've seen the video of that Alaskan trek. He did have a rifle on the float portion and he considered carrying a 44mag pistol and decided it wasn't worth the weight, just like I'd most likely do if I ever thru'd the AT. In the Brooks range the populations of all fauna, bears especially, are quite low. That means you won't see huge numbers of them in any event. Go down to Kodiak Island at the end of August and it is a different story. When I was in McKinley Park, that was what it was called, I'm old. As for the "Meredith" remark, I think it is a good analogy, we'll see more attacks by eastern "park bears" of hikers and campers.
Yes MOWGLI, I've seen the video of that Alaskan trek. He did have a rifle on the float portion and he considered carrying a 44mag pistol and decided it wasn't worth the weight, just like I'd most likely do if I ever thru'd the AT. In the Brooks range the populations of all fauna, bears especially, are quite low. That means you won't see huge numbers of them in any event. .
If you have only seen the brief free clip, you should watch the entire video. It's great. He had numerous Griz encounters. I interviewed him a few months ago after reviewing the video. I asked him specifically why he didn't carry a firearm. It was a very good discussion. If you're interested, you could probably find the interview online, or a link to it here on WB.
And I agree, that there are places in Alaska that I wouldn't want to hike without a firearm. Polar Bear country comes to mind immediately.
Why can’t the people that don’t like guns not carry them and let others that want to have one with them let that person make that choice? Why must the anti-gun view be pushed to everyone and implemented by force with men that have badges & guns on anyone that wants to protect themselves?
For the AT (black bears) I see spray as more then enough for me, but I don’t see a problem with a person deciding to pack a gun. It’s their life, they should have the right to do what they see fit to protect it.
I don't see Black Bears as a primary reason to carry guns, or bear spray.
That's not to say that people shouldn't chose to carry either, or both, or neither.
People should be educated, and prepared, but that doesn't mean everyone has to march lock step.
fiddlehead
07-14-2008, 04:33
Why can’t the people that don’t like guns not carry them and let others that want to have one with them let that person make that choice? Why must the anti-gun view be pushed to everyone and implemented by force with men that have badges & guns on anyone that wants to protect themselves?
For the AT (black bares) I see spray as more then enough for me, but I don’t see a problem with a person deciding to pack a gun. It’s their life, they should have the right to do what they see fit to protect it.
Not sure why you guys (Bob s & take a knee anyway) have me down as anti gun. My father was a great trap & skeet shooter and taught all of his sons to hunt. That doesn't mean i think shooting any bear who is protecting his offspring or environment is the right thing to do.
I think bear spray would've been ok for my 2 very close bear encounters and i also think a gun would've perhaps gotten me killed, the bear wounded, the cubs dying and the more i think about it, the more i don't see killing ( or trying to) the bear is the right answer.
I believe a better idea would be for hikers to educate themselves on what to do if charged by which species and know which one could be in the area they are hiking in.
So, If a mama black bear is protecting 2 cubs and charges you to keep you away, are you going to shoot her? (i'm talking guns here not spray)
The question is not only directed to you Bob S but i would like to hear other's opinions also on this question.
Why can’t the people that don’t like guns not carry them and let others that want to have one with them let that person make that choice? Why must the anti-gun view be pushed to everyone and implemented by force with men that have badges & guns on anyone that wants to protect themselves?
For the AT (black bears) I see spray as more then enough for me, but I don’t see a problem with a person deciding to pack a gun. It’s their life, they should have the right to do what they see fit to protect it.
Carry a gun where you legally can if you think it is necessary. But please refrain from pretending that (a) a gun or spray is necessary to protect yourself again black bears on the AT and (b) that those that don't carry a gun don't have any courage, like TAK did. That tends to engender a response, because in fact, the opposite is true in both cases. When people use their own insecurities to portray others as not having "gonads" (TAK), it really bothers me. And it should bother the sensible gun advocate too.
Neither a gun or bear spray is required for protection from bears on the AT.
Lone Wolf
07-14-2008, 07:09
Neither a gun or bear spray is required for protection from bears on the AT.
that's it in a nutshell. :)
Fiddleback
07-14-2008, 08:59
First, actually, you're woefully uninformed on the topic. There is a member or Whiteblaze who lives in Alaska, and who walked and paddled 1000 miles across the Brooks range (http://www.bucktrack.com/Alaska_Brooks_Range_Traverse.html). He is a very experienced hiker, and hardly a "tree hugging idiot." On his 600 mile walk across the Brooks Range, he carried no firearm. I'm sure he'd add to this discussion, but he is currently hiking the CDT.
Secondly, there is no such place as "McKinley Park."
Lastly, I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds it outrageous that you try and use the memory of Meredith to advance your selfish agenda. Have you no shame?
What MOWGLI said.
While some may call me a 'tree hugger' (I'd like to hear the definition, though), I'm no idiot. During the time I lived in Alaska virtually all of my backpacking was in the area of the state's most dense grizzly population. The extra weight of carrying a firearm, the added risk of personal injury, or injury to others, from a firearm accident, and the extreme difficulty in effectively using a firearm in a sudden confrontation with a grizzly all convinced me to not carry a firearm.
I've carried a firearm once on the trail...when I was searching for a spooked and runaway pack horse and expected I'd have to put it down. There was a happy ending for both of us; the horse was eventually found unhurt and I never felt the need to carry again.
I hope I didn't miss anything when I was in Alaska. I never pranced nor saw anyone that did and I never saw McKinley Park. :D
FB
It would be nice to have a bear thread about the ecology of bears.
Lone Wolf
07-14-2008, 09:34
Meant to say it would be nice to have a bear thread about the ecology of bears.
then start one
then start oneI think I will.
Gotta work on my thesis today though. It's on wind, not bears.
I'll get right to it. Back in a day or two.
Thanks LW.
dessertrat
07-14-2008, 09:48
I had a friend on a backpacking trip in Michigan who had a black bear charge him several times. It would stop about 15 feet away and pop its jaws. The bear was between them and their packs. They ended up backing away and the bear had his way with the packs. Bear spray might have been handy then.
Jaw popping is an agressive sign and one is well advised to stay clear. Obviously the bear had laid claim to the packs and was planning on dining at leisure, and didn't like the notion of someone coming to get their packs back.
.....So, If a mama black bear is protecting 2 cubs and charges you to keep you away, are you going to shoot her? (i'm talking guns here not spray)
The question is not only directed to you Bob S but i would like to hear other's opinions also on this question.
Most certainly not. And not only because I won't have a gun with me. I'm not opposed to shooting wild creatures. I shoot deer occasionally. And this summer I've shot a woodchuck nibbling on my garden. (And tried and missed a couple of others.)
But I doubt if many hikers carry a caliber large enough to stop a charging mother bear. Even my tiny wood chuck, blown apart by a 30-30, managed to run quite a few feet before falling.
REalistically,to have any protection, I'd have to be walking the trail with a large, heavy weapon at my side, something I've never seen anyone do, at least openly. Despite the claims to the contrary, I suspect most trail weapons quickly get buried in the bottom packs. I'm sure mine would if I ever became paranoid enough to carry.
I suspect I have a better chance of winning the megabucks lottery, than getting attacked by a bear. The odds don't warrant the nuisance of a weapon.
Weary
Plodderman
07-14-2008, 15:43
Use neither and carry neither.. Last year (2008) we saw a number of bears in the Smokies but had no trouble they usaully just go off by themsleves but I do think about what would happen if one became aggressive. We did have one around a shelter (Lost Mountains Shelter) in Virginia a few weeks ago but I never saw it.
HikerRanky
07-14-2008, 15:49
For those of you that are members of the ATC, in the July-August issue of Journeys, there is an article about bears on the Trail....
Sorry, the article is not posted online...... but it is very good....
Randy
tlbj6142
07-14-2008, 15:54
Weird, what happened to the top half of this thread? I know I didn't start the thread. I was post #7 or #8.
HikerRanky
07-14-2008, 16:41
I split off the thread from the Bears on the AT incidents thread, since it was clear to me that some people wanted to discuss bear protection in general.... grizz and such in Alaska....
The other option was to delete all of those since it wasn't specifically about the question that the OP posed, and that was bear incidents on the AT...
Randy
I've seen quite a few grizzlies myself, one at about 25yd above timberline in McKinley Park. Only tree-hugging idiots prance around in Alaska in bear country (especially near the coast, they are more territorial there) without a 44mag pistol or even better, a Marlin Guide Gun. Charging bears are stopped quite often there, by people who've lived to tell the tale. I know a guy who's jumped out of an airplane without a reserve parachute, that doesn't mean it was a smart thing to do. As the bear population grows in the lower 48, we'll have more attacks, you can bank on it. I remember the "Pre-Meredith" gun threads here, only the die-hards still rant about other people arming themselves.
You will not see a true AK with a 44 MAG as a side...to small.A bears H/R is very slow and even a perfect up close hit,you will be dinner before the bleedout.
tlbj6142
07-14-2008, 19:20
I split off the thread from the Bears on the AT incidents thread, since it was clear to me that some people wanted to discuss bear protection in general.OK. That make sense. Though maybe I was schizophrenic and my other personas were starting threads.