Under-quilts - the best answer

[peter_pan]

My hiking partner (Smee) and I have been actively working and testing hammock insulation ideas and systems for over two years. In our experience, the under-quilt is the best answer. Our homemade, down filled models have undergone a fair amount of testing. Our earliest quilts have seen 80 nights of use and 800+ miles of the AT. We are in the final stages of weight reduction and determination of the best overall attachment system. Read simplest, lightest, with adequate durability.

The real questions are:
1. Does the hammock community like the idea of under-quilts?
2. What design features should go into under-quilts?
3. What do you think?

[Dobber]

I have a HH Explorer and like the idea of the underquilt. I've been following some of the threads and like all the creativity.

I would like an underquilt that is 10-14oz, applied with either velcro or big buttons, and is a machine washable synthetic. I too have tinkered with the sewing idea, but the wife would think I'm nuts for spending that much time on something. Besides, my applied sewing skills are sub par.

So, if you guys put something together that is functional, practical, and priced right, "then I'll probably buy at least one!"

How is that for some feedback!

Thanks for your yankee ingenuity...

[SGT Rock]

While I was initially skeptical of the underquilt, I am now a believer.

What I would like to see:

1. about 2" loft under critical spots like the butt, back, and shoulders; about 1-1/2" under the rest.
2. A DWR shell in case of splash.
3. Light weight - somewhere around a pound in weight.
4. Quick and easy attachement. Minimal modifications to the hammock, and modifications that will not reduce the lifespan of the hamock.
5. I also belive it would be possible to make the under-quilt with a head hole and collar so that the collar could plug the head hole. This way the under-quilt could be a multi-use item by becoming a clothing article that could be worn in camp when the hiker is not in the hammock - sort of like a blanket poncho.

[Hammock Hanger]

I too am a longtime hammock hanger. I love the quilt idea and have made a few. So as not to repeat I agree with everything Sgt Rock posted. I never thought of the duo purpose and thinnk it would be nice but not mandatory. I just don't want it to weigh too much.... My down one was 21 oz. and that was not using a water resistant material.

I do believe that the underquilt is the answer to cold weather hammocking.:banana


Sue/HH

[attroll]

I believe Peter Pan has some pictures in the photo gallery where he is waring his under quilt.

[SGT Rock]

Yes, that is something like what I was thinking of, but instead of a full length slit up the front, I was thinking more along the lines of a 20" long head hole with a collar that can plug up the hole.

So what are the stats on that underquilt?

I have also thought about making a dowwn quilt that compliments the system. The overall plan is a evazote pad that goes in the hammock and can be used in a shelter if the hammock is not used and will also support the Gearskin, an underquilt I can use as part of my clothing system in camp, a quilt that works inside the hammock (ie Hungry Howie's), and a slightly larger tarp from Brian like this: http://www.whiteblaze.net/gallery/data/500/698000_0330.JPG.

I think with that sort of system with the clothing I already own, I can have a VERY comfortable and flexable system that will keep me hiking and comfortable here in the south for all four seasons.

[schrochem]

I just got the explorer ultralight b/c I am 6'3" but haven't been out in it yet. I also just finished making a summer quilt that has approx 1.25" loft. It is similar to the one you mentioned some time ago peter pan 78X52X1.25 rectangular with draw string on bottom and strips of velcro. I just completed it last night but I might make it my underquilt during cooler weather and quilt for warmer weather (original intent). As you can see the dimensions are huge b/c of my size but it only weighs 15oz b/c I used 0.8oz dwr ripstop for both top and bottom.
I saw the picture of the underquilt yall created with a slit in the entrance. I was currently thinking I might be able to fold my quilt in half and have approx 2.5 under my body. This would be 27in wide and would only cover the critical part "under my body". Attaching it.....have a couple of ideas but just now thinking about it. So that is another question: Can a smaller quilt be made that only covers the parts needed? This would keep the weight down considerably.
Scott

[schrochem]

Rock, an option to your last question:
"5. I also belive it would be possible to make the under-quilt with a head hole and collar so that the collar could plug the head hole. This way the under-quilt could be a multi-use item by becoming a clothing article that could be worn in camp when the hiker is not in the hammock - sort of like a blanket poncho."

I just uploaded a couple of pictures of the quilt I just described being used as a coat. Check it out.
Scott

[SGT Rock]

That isn't the way I envisioned it, but it does work.

Here is a picture (not very good) of a head hole put in a poncho liner. The slit is 18" long and a little tight, but you can get the idea:

http://hikinghq.net/forum/attachment.php?postid=3701

I figured that an underquilt would have sort of a diamond shape, and with the head hole in the center it could work out pretty well.

[DebW]

Now if you all would switch to Speer Hammocks, you wouldn't need the specialty underquilt. Just any old sleeping bag that opens across the foot would do. Most semi-rectangulars that zip open flat will do, or Kelty make some with a foot zipper, or others make foot drawstrings. Medicine Man posted a pic with the WM Ponderosa. I'd go with synthetic because of the chance of it getting wet or drug through the mud while putting my hammock up. Well, many solutions to the same problem.

[peter_pan]

Ask and you shall recieve. Thanks to all for your posts. Keep piling them on.

If you go to the thread entitled Pad-bag for mid may hike you will see a detailed post of the specs of an under quilt that we are fabricating for Trail Days. Currently, Three quilts are complete and under testing and final adjustments. There are also pictures, besides the ones cited, at my gallery. Soon we will add pictures of my recent hang out at the Seminole Reservation in Big Cypress Swamp (hammock hangs over 6 ' deep run-off stream).five inches of rain fell in 16 hours, stayed dry as a bone including the under-quilt.

To answer Sgt Rock. We also have cut down poncho liners with resealable head hole. and footsack capability. With bells and whistles mine is 15 oz...recall stock is a whole lot less flexible and is 21.5 oz. Also see the wearable parka length vest picture. It affords high mobility, great coverage. stays put and can be remounted to the hammock in less that a minute.

We explored a couple af modells in the 30-36 inch with poor results. You can get some to work. BUT the hassles of getting it under you just right and keeping it there are a PAIN. This is analigous to the problems of using the maximum cut down pad, getting it under you, then waking each time some part of youshifts and becomes uninsulated. Not worth any saving in our opinion. For the record, my winter long section base pack is 13 lbs and summer week-end load breaks the 10 lb barrier even with a hammock system.
We found rectanges better than the proximal diamond.First, they yield better coverage with absolutely hassle free use. Second thy provide alternate, read multiple uses, warm vest, cabin quilt, top quilt with footsack, enhance a 3 season bag for that ocassional winter trip.

More later.

[SGT Rock]

Have you got any shots of that with the hammock. I really like the green color.

I would love to test one of those babies, but the weather is getting warm.

[bailcor]

Peter-Pan - After freezing my buns off on a sub 30 night, would definitely be interested in anything that is light, packable and easy to keep under you. I kept waking during the night when I slipped off my pad. Like the idea of a multiple use arrangement. Just a thought, anyone familiar with the material called ZYFLEX knows that it is a light, wind and water resistant fabric. I had thought of perhaps sandwiching a thin strip of primaloft between two layers of zyflex. If you do not know about ZYFLEX they have a site www.zyflex.com . Please keep us informed on your progress, a lot of people I suspect are interested in solving this puzzle.

[peter_pan]

Pardon our lack of organization. Pictures are at Member gallery...Peter Pan, also at member gallery...Smee. Some other pics are posted in the Other photo gallery...hammocks. We liked the green also as it supports our stealth camping style. The inside is black.

[MedicineMan]

Like Sgt Rock, DebW and others I have been working all angles at hammocking....the Ponderosa/CrazyCreekCrib combo is now proven for extreme temps and has proven very very comfortable at 23 degrees (actually too hot at 23F with pants). For those learning about hammocking there are really two angles on cold temps. First the underquilts/tacos, and second the pods (thanks to DebW and Ed Speer pods are the true solution for realy realy cold cold cold temps). My version of the pod, i.e. the POnderosa/CrazyCreebCrib combo was a ready solution of things I had and I think the Speer Pod is a slightly better solution in that it does readily cover the head-I solved that problem with a balaclava by Nunatak....but the POnderosa has a wonderful advantabe...zipped it is pulled up and over the body, that it is doesnt have to be unzipped to get out, just reach up and pull it down, maybe important for those who might feel trapped in a true pod design where the zipper could snag (though doubtful) or in a case when you need to get out quickly...though on the section hike of two weeks ago I crawled in and didnt move for 12 hours (DebW can relate to hiking in this kind of snow and ice-can you say instep crampsons!).....now back to underquilts. I have been using them successfully with the HH, mine being a sil-nyl aluminzed taco with slit matching up with the slit in the HH, and like Risk I have used extraneous insulation (stuff carried in my pack). The taco has a layer of Radiantek perm. sewn onto it for modest insulation...This taco setup has worked well until 32-35degrees and I would not take it if I felt temps were to go below 30F without adding a down underquilt (or Primaloft if you choose). I also have a down underquilt ordered from White Knight at the hammockcamping yahoo group. If any here are interested I will post about it when recieved.....
On another topic, last week we did several rivers/state parks in southwestern florida with a return to the Everglades via the 10,000 Islands. I took this trip as an excuse to try the new (to me) HH Extreme Light Racer....WOW, this hammock is more comfortable than the ultralight backpack A-sym...and since this was luxurious paddling camping/and car camping I put in a huge inflattable pad that is 2inches thick (and a small close cell pad t-style like sgt rock suggested long ago to prevent cold-shoulder-wrap)..it was the most comfortable I have ever been in a hammock OR bed!.....

[CanoeBlue]

A year ago I posted a description of an underquilt to Rock's site and to Thru-hiker - the url is http://iemedia.ca/dk/home.htm

This underquilt has been used quite a bit and the more I use it the better I like it. It is very light, goes on to the hammock quickly and the modifications to the hammock were simple and stress the hammock very little when it is in place. I get the impression that we are going to see a lot of new ideas presented regarding underquilts, and while I won't hold this one up as the only way to solve the problem, it does offer a pretty good starting point for discussion.

I live in Canada so my HH/underquilt gets subjected to some pretty chilly nights. There are three important issues to address with an underquilt, they are: 1.) fit .... 2.) fit ..... and 3.) (you guessed it) ... fit. ..... Because - on really chilly nights it doesn't matter what kind of insulation you have or how much of it you have on the outside of that hammock, if air can circulate freely between the underquilt and the hammock and "short-circuit" the insulation you are going to have cold spots. Furthermore, the shape of the hammock changes somewhat as you move around in it, so the underquilt needs to fit well and the fit needs to be somewhat flexible.

If I were to make the underquilt again, I would:
1.) use a little more loft - Sgt. Rock's thoughts of 2 inches are probably about right, and last fall I opened the baffles and added an additional 3 oz. of down and that took care of any cold spots. The problem that I had was that 1 1/2" seemed to be adequate but it took only minor shifting of the down to cause "thin" spots.
2.) Use a slightly heavier elastic where the elastic stretches between the tie-outs across the underside. When it gets really cold it is nice to slip additional insulation (fleece jacket or ?) between the hammock and the underquilt and the additional weight of elastic would hold that a little better.

The DWR (Durable Water Repellent) rip-stop on the underside of the hammock has worked very well.

Initially I tried to attach it firmly to the hammock (velcro) but the system lacked the flexiblity necessary to move with the hammock. The system of shock cord and elastic has worked very well and I haven't come up with a better method with the exception that I mentioned of increasing the weight of the cross elastic.

I have received questions about leaving a slit in the underquilt to correspond with the entry slot of the hammock. I felt then and I feel now that getting the fit right is complicated enough without adding another component like the slit. If, on the other hand, you can make an underquilt that doubles as something else without sacrificing fit, such as incorporating a hole for your head so you can wear it as Sgt. Rock suggests, then by all means go for it, just don't sacrifice fit for dual purpose.

Some time ago I sent the pattern to Paul at Thru-Hiker and he is working on a computerized pattern and kit for this underquilt. I am not promoting the kit for remuneration, as I am not receiving any, but I will promote the kit as a way of not having to repeat some of the mistakes that I had to make to come up with it.

Good luck with your projects.

[SGT Rock]

Found the picture: http://www.whiteblaze.net/gallery/data/577/1908DSC02752-med.JPG

Does the large slit up the middle reduce the insulation quality of the quilt? I actually had a similar idea a while back and was talked out of it for this reason.

[MedicineMan]

funny think about the slit in my underquilt....when we sewed the taco we modeled the slit after a pair of boxer shorts with the result being that the taco closes on it own just like the HH's slit....now a problem that turned out positite, the radiantek line we sewed onto the sil-nyl will stick to velcro like crazy, at first I thought it an irritant and then realized that it sticks to the velco on the HH slit, once or twice when closing a long tuff of radiantek came into the HH slit, I reckoned that the slit was full and wouldnt leak air.....

And for those newbies to cold weather hammocking note that I first attached underquilts alone and had those air gaps that Canoe-blue refereed to, but after attaching a sil-nyl taco the gaps were reduced in a major way along with blocking wind/rain/splatter rain...with the taco you can use less insulation too.

[peter_pan]

Rock has a point on the slit and leaks. It concerned us too. Actual testing found it not to be a problem if properly attached. The design gives the option to attach the under-quilt slit sides to itself for a complete bottom. this does increase heat retention slightly. it is an option for the extra cold night. Acees degrades to the old, pull the under-quilt aside, get in let it snap back in place. This is no real issue, just not as convient as the HH slit entrance.

[schrochem]

CanoeBlue,
First of all thanks for sharing your design and features. I will probably write to Paul directly, but since you mentioned it here, I was wondering if the pattern will be for multiple models, I have the explorer ultralight or just one?
Also, in your design and for that matter any design out there, how (if possible) is an underquilt adjusted for temperature? I think you covered ways to keep you warmer when it get colder (adding extra insulation via clothing etc) but how about when the temperature starts to rise? Say 40s, 50s, 60s without having another system to haul along or will it not get too "hot" and isn't a problem? or would you just leave an appropriate sized air gap for the conditions?
I would think a "single" variable system would be ideal for weight reasons.
Thanks again for all the great information!
Scott

[SGT Rock]

how (if possible) is an underquilt adjusted for temperature? I think you covered ways to keep you warmer when it get colder (adding extra insulation via clothing etc) but how about when the temperature starts to rise? Say 40s, 50s, 60s without having another system to haul along or will it not get too "hot" and isn't a problem? or would you just leave an appropriate sized air gap for the conditions?
Scott

With the poncho liner underquilt this wasn't an issue and I doubt it would be for another system. It would be like sleeping on the ground in warm weather - just open up your top insulation more. But this is also why I belive a good system should include a pad of some sort so you have a little flexability - for instance you may want to stay in a shelter because there is a real frog strangler out there, you don't want to set up in a drencher, and there isn't enough room in a shelter for setting up the hammock in it.

And the pad also serves as a support for my gearskin, is insulation down to about 50 or so, a good place to lounge when laying under the hammock tarp and cooking in the rain, etc. Oware sells 40"x60" evazote pads that you can cut to your desired size, I have found a 28" wide mummy shape (18" at the foot) works very well with a clothing bag at the head where there isn't any pad. The pads only weigh 7 ounces before trimming, and I figure if I tripple layer them (making it about 3/4" thick) that will only weigh 11.5 ounces or so. http://www.owareusa.com

With my poncho lineruderquilt I found it was very hard to get a good hammock-to-quilt seal because of the rectangular shape - too much space at the head and foot. I also found that I was not always centered well on the middle of the quilt, an elbow or something would be off the center of the quilt and get cold. Of course your quilt is about twice the width of mine so the center isn't an issue, but how do you get a good weld of the hammock bottom to the quilt with a rectangular shape? I can see how CanoeBlue's would work, but it doesn't have the other feature (slit entrance/vest flaxability) of yours.

[MedicineMan]

Scott, if you use the taco method you will stuff insulation between the taco and the bottom of the hammock as you see fit. For me I always carry a WM Flight-all seasons, every hike- I wear it as camp wear and when sleep time comes it goes in the taco, same with the backpack, socks, extra clothing....so all of this can be varied according to temp...CanoeBlues underquilt only weighs 10oz (I think I'm remembering correctly) so it could go on any and all hikes and easily be supplemented by the above.
My Ponderosa/Crib system is simply too hot for anything above 30F but luckily it slides across the hammock easily to vary the amount of insulation and or course you could unzip it....but in totality I think heat rises and getting hot from below in a hammock is less a reality than getting cold....also remember the air bag trick from Risk, especially several air bags that contain filler material---you do have 2 garbage bags with you at all times dont you?

[flyfisher]

Just to get this thread up to date on my experiments:

The two innovations I have been working with this winter have been what I call the WarmHammock and the TravelPod.

The WarmHammock is a modified Speer type home-made hammock with integral insulation in the central 4 feet of the hammock. The pouch of quilted PolarGuard II insulation is sewn to the hammock with a zig-zag stitch to keep the stitch line from stressing the hammock fabric when it stretches.

See:
http://www.imrisk.com/hammock/warmhammock.htm

I tried an earlier down version, which had a technical error on my part. It turns out that pouches under hammocks need to have darts on their edges so the insulation can "pouch out" instead of being smashed against the bottom of the hammock. My fancy 4 ounces of down was smashed against the hamock and gave me no more than an eighth of an inch of insulation! I may re-do that down version which is filled with 4 oz of down for this summer.

I have also been dealing with a variation on Ed Speer's PeaPod. However, instead of using an enclosing pod of insulated material, I have just used a single layer of 1.1 oz DWR ripstop. It is a great way to carry LOTS of cold insulation insurance in an 8 oz package!

See:
http://www.imrisk.com/hammock/travelpod.htm

With these systems combined, and with my down quilt and a standard target foam pad, and a Psolar BX balaclava, I was able to sleep comfortably to a personal record this January: -10 degrees and 10 mph wind, for a wind chill of -28 F.

While I would not go hiking in these conditions on purpose, it is comforting to know that I could not only survive, but go on to enjoying the next day if a very cold night came along.

Risk

[schrochem]

Okay so it looks like I will probably go the route of pad w/ underquilt for flexability. I added it all up and it looks like it is in the 5lb range for shelter and sleep system. To be honest I am perfectly happy with that if the comfort is there. I am 6'3'' so I had to get the explorer ultralight- so with snakeskins-36oz, pad ~12oz (based on your dimensions sgt rock), ~under quilt 10-15oz (this depends on fill I think), over quilt 17-22oz. So on the light range that is 75oz and the high side 85 and the middle is 5lbs.
So a couple of questions. How could a few ounces be shaved off the system? Sgt Rock, I will take your pad dimensions wholeheartedly but is 3/4" necessary or would 1/2'' get you by? Also, 28" how would you pack that? I know you are using the gearskin design, but wouldn't that stick out quite a bit? If using a pad, say 3/4" could you lighten up the fill in the underquilt or what that cause the problems canoeblue said about the fill falling off to the sides? Or would it be better to have 2" fill under quilt and 1/4" or 1/2" pad?
Just tossing out ideas here to come up with a versatile setup.
Thanks for all the pointers
scott

[SGT Rock]

3/4" would probably be overkill, but I an judge that when the pad shows up and i make it. I could reduce the weight by about 1/3 to make it 1/2" thick. I would not reduce the amount of loft in the quilt though because it is so much lighter to have 1/2" of down loft than 1/2" of pad loft.

To pack the pad you couldfold it in half, so that it is about 14" wide at the top and roll it that way, again, I won't know until the pad gets here. With a gearskin I simply put the wide part against my back then the side compression straps fold those sides over like wings and compress them in well.

[Kozmic Zian]

Yea......Quilts. Here's an upload of a down filled quilt (measures 4'x6') I purchased for domestic use that I'm thinking of using for a summer hummer. It's a Woolrich brand, that I bought at Target. Can't remember how much I paid....not much, thou. It's small, light (6oz), and covered in silk. It compresses to nothing. Check it out....might be just what you need to warm the bottom of a hammock. No muss, No fuss! KZ@

[schrochem]

That 1/4" padding sounds pretty good for the versatility/weight. I wonder if sandwiching some mylar between two layers would add to its Rvalue. and replace a third layer.
Also, I was reading someones trailjournal and they mentioned Tom Hennessy is testing a cold weather product and will have it at Trail days. Anyone know specifically what method he is employing?
Scott

[SGT Rock]

Mylar would not add a lot to the R value of a pad.

[Smee]

OK. Here is the deal on “Jacks ‘r’ Better” under-quilts for Hennessey hammocks and other models.

First. We have been actively working and testing hammock insulation ideas and systems for over two years. In our experience, the under-quilt is the best answer. Our homemade models have undergone a fair amount of testing. Our earliest quilts have seen 80 nights of use and 800+ miles of the AT. We are in the final stages of weight reduction and determination of the best overall attachment system. Read simplest, lightest, with adequate durability.

Second, these under-quilts are fairly described as:
* Nominal dimension are 48x78x1.5 inches.
* Fabric is 1.1 oz rip stop w/DWR treatment.
* Box baffle design uses no-seeum netting.
* Design includes a split entrance w/non-snagging, double sex Velcro hook and loop that attaches to the Hennessy’s entrance hook and loop. It can, also, be self fastened to form a flat quilt for cabin use. Further, it can be used as a top quilt, either stand-alone or as a bag liner since it has a foot sack capability.
* It attaches to the hammock without sewing or special hardware.
* Attachment time is generally under a minute.
* It may be comfortably worn as a parka length vest.
* It comes with a silnyl compression sack that allows it to be stuffed to 7x7x7.
* It weighs 18 oz; the compression sack is 1 oz.
* These prototypes are stuffed with “floor down” that has been washed, believed to be approx 750 fill.
* We have used these into the low 30s, wearing only fleece long underwear and using a down top quilt and balaclava, often barefoot.
* Photos are posted in the member gallery under Smee, and in the others gallery under Hammocks.

We are considering getting a booth at Trail Days in Damscus and will have a few prototypes available. The quality of workmanship is really good on these prototypes. They will be for sale at Trail Days or on advance order at $175 with $50 deposit. Send a personal message if interested. See you in Damascus.

NOTE: Regular price for the Jacks "r" Better "Nest" is $199.00 plus shipping and handling (and 4.5% state tax if in VA). Our $175.00 price was an introductory Trail Days special.

[Smee]

I have a HH Explorer and like the idea of the underquilt. I've been following some of the threads and like all the creativity.

I would like an underquilt that is 10-14oz, applied with either velcro or big buttons, and is a machine washable synthetic. I too have tinkered with the sewing idea, but the wife would think I'm nuts for spending that much time on something. Besides, my applied sewing skills are sub par.

So, if you guys put something together that is functional, practical, and priced right, "then I'll probably buy at least one!"

How is that for some feedback!

Thanks for your yankee ingenuity...

Here’s the bottom line to quilt weight.

For a 48” x 78” finished quilt the ripstop nylon alone weighs over 8 oz.

The down fill weight varies based on the desired loft and fill quality. Price varies with fill quality but because lower fill quality requires more down, the cost is the same for 800 fill or 550 fill. Therefore, you might as well use 800 fill to get the lower weight. The weights for 800 fill down are:

1” loft 4.68 oz.
1.5” loft 7.02 oz.
2” loft 9.36 oz.
2.5” loft 11.7 oz.

Loft equates to temperature rating. If you want a quilt capable of keeping you comfortable in sub-freezing temperatures you better be in the 2.5” loft range. Obviously that puts the quilt weight at nearly 20 oz. before you do any sewing. Add a draw string, cordlock(s) and velcro to make a foot box, or gross grain loops and shock cord to attach as a hammock underquilt and you add another couple of ounces or more. You can get a down quilt for under a pound, but it ain’t gonna keep you warm in the Spring and Fall. :)

[Hikerhead]

On my last overnighter I did in WVA a couple of weeks ago, the temps got down into the low 20's. I was in my Clark Hammock.

I just took one of the cheapy Wall Mart open cell pad. Rolls up big but weighs hardly nothing.

I was surprised at how warm I stayed using that. It stayed pretty much in one place too.

[attroll]

$175. My hammock cost less then that. Looks like I will try and make my own. This will be my first homemade project I have ever attempted. It probably will not be pretty.

[MedicineMan]

175$ is not that bad assuming that the quilts are fully baffled....there is a lot and I mean a lot of sewing to get a fully baffled quilt or sleeping bag...but dont despair...remember I got lucky with the WM Ponderosa and the CrazyCreek Crib...you could always find a used down sleeping bag and sew off what you intend to remove to make the quilt....most older hikers (me) have old sleeping bags in the closet to experiment with...........but again I dont fully agree that underquilts are the sole answer, you do have to figet with them in the attachments because any gap will give you a cold spot...the speer pod is another excellent answer to the cold problem but look at what flyfisher is doing at home-truly a testament to all of us, 'cepting those of us (me again) who cant really sew or refuse too! and with sil-nyl or 1.1 ripstop anyone-even me- can sew a taco (with slit to match the HH) and inside that taco anyone can stuff various types/amounts of insulation...the taco stops many of the airgaps/leeks and therefore coldspots that can plaque an underquilt, the taco also blocks rain and scatter from hitting your down underquilt, the taco is very light.....
OK with all that said I have to agree with Sgt. Rock that a pad is always a good thing to have.
2 Weeks ago in Florida I used a small piece of foam to creat the Sgt. Rock T under my shoulders to prevent coldwrap...that foam as Sgt has pointed out could be used to sit on or in a shelter....and it weighs very very little...I'm thinking dont go out without it....mine also acts as my packframe in the Mithril and I can vary the thickness of the foam depending on anticipated weather...on the winter hike of February in Virginia I used a long wide piece of closed cell foam in the CrazyCreekCrib/POnderosa combo and felt certain I was good to zeroF......
Whatever you do find a solution for cold weather that works for you and your budget because sleeping in a hammock is like no other sleep in the world unless you could sleep in water....so again thanks to HammockHanger and Sgt.Rock for exposing me to hammocking!

[peter_pan]

To answer Medicine Man. Yes. They are fully baffled to the stated thickness with no-seeum netting. They fit well to the hammock and requiry no adjustments after attachment. Repeated ins and outs of the hammock to answer natures call do not require re-adjustment. It is as simple as getting into an empty hammock. Just you and your quilt or bag and what ever you choose as a pillow.

[Shoe Leather Express]

$175. My hammock cost less then that. Looks like I will try and make my own. This will be my first homemade project I have ever attempted. It probably will not be pretty.
I priced out the materials for $125 from Outdoor Wilderness Fabrics (http://www.owfinc.com/) and Thru Hiker's home made gear resources (http://www.thru-hiker.com/). That was for a 2" thick 800 down quilt. I'd probably give up the extra $50 just so I don't have to sew it. (Yes, I pay people to do work for me that I don't want to do.:p) Just FYI.

[MedicineMan]

I am interested in purchasing a down underquilt from you, please tell me who to send the check to.
Also, do I have a choice in thickness/loft?
I have several cold weather solutions for my hammocks and I would like to get an underquilt that is as light as possible.
Post when you can.
thanks,
MedicineMan

[peter_pan]

Medicine Man,

Details sent via PM. Thanks for your interest. We're sure you'll be quite pleased withour under-quilt.

[MedicineMan]

I have placed an order for an underquilt from the Smee-PeterPan combine....I put the check in the mail today and of course will keep all here informed of the process and the product. We have a 50mile section at the end of April, hopefully it will arrive for that trip and a full test.

[2XL]

Which models of Hennessy Hammocks will this underquilt fit?
What is the estimated delivery time when an order is placed?



2XL

[Smee]

2XL,

The under quilt will fit all models of the Hennessey with some simple adjustments to the attachment cords. I've also had one attached to an Amazona. Worked great.

Time from order to receipt is a more difficult question. We initiall ordered enough material to make 8 quilts to take to trail days. One of those (the first one we made) we have characterized as a prototype/demo model. It's functional but it's missing a few minor refinements that make the product more professional. Of the remaining seven, three are complete and four are assembled to the point of being ready to stuff. We expect to complete those within the next couple of weeks. Three of the seven are already spoken forand we have to keep a couple to be able to show at trail days. That leaves 2-3 still available for purchase before trail days and they could be in the mail as early as next week and for sure within a few weeks.

Our intent is to take orders in Damascus and order materials the next week. Once the materials arrive (usually a week to ten days) it will probably be a month before the first quilts are completed. Right now we're just two guys working on the weekends. We're guessing we can turn out 3-4 per month.

Hope that helps.

Regards,

Smee

[pharper]

I was wondering if you had any idea of how cold this blanket would work in conjunction with a 0 degree synthetic bag? (I realize that what you are wearing and your personal comfort temperature play a huge part in this... just wondering if people have tested this configuration.)

I am very interested in ordering one of these... but being a poor college student... I want to make sure that this will fulfill all of my needs first!

Thank you in advance for your time!

-Patrick

[peter_pan]

I was wondering if you had any idea of how cold this blanket would work in conjunction with a 0 degree synthetic bag? (I realize that what you are wearing and your personal comfort temperature play a huge part in this... just wondering if people have tested this configuration.)

I am very interested in ordering one of these... but being a poor college student... I want to make sure that this will fulfill all of my needs first!

Thank you in advance for your time!

-Patrick



Pharper,
You are right there are a lot of variables. The UQ which we have named,"nest" is basically good for 40 degrees, Adjusting the dead air space, putting a ground pad between it and the hammock, putting rain gear or other unused soft wear between it and the hammock all add warmth. You can also shield the nest with a wind proof shell, generally good for another5-10 degrees. We will be introducing a microporous polypropolene (read waterproof, windproof, and breathable) shell at Trail Days.I sleep with only a top quilt, someone using a full bag will gain some, but remember that what is between you and the hammock compresses and becomes very inefficient as insulation.

The real issue is what conditions due you want to meet. If you send me a PM with what you want to achieve I'll give you some specific recommendations.

Peter_pan

[SGT Rock]

To add to what Peter Pan said, id also depends on what synthetic fill you are talking about. Some synthetic bads don't compress well which is normally bad for backpackers, but I have found that a bag that doesn't compress well is actually warmer in a hammock than a down bag for pbvious reasons.

[stieg]

It's been so long since I've heard about an HH taco. I can't remember how Ray and others have them set up for HH's. Can somebody point me to Ray's site or others with info that's HH-specific? I don't seem to have any URLs for those.

I've made one of Risk/Flyfisher's TravelPods for my Speer-style double bottom hammock. I haven't been able to test it outside yet. I think it has a little too much bagginess underneath for my weight, but I'm not sure yet. It may be just right with an empty pack in it.

Thanks!

Added:

I just found Ray's pages (http://www.hammockcamping.com/Garlington%20Insulator/GIversion2.htm) on the web. I think if I make a taco I'll make a hole for the side tieouts. It doesn't seem that the side tieouts do that much, but I'd like to keep them "active".

[flyfisher]

It's been so long since I've heard about an HH taco. I can't remember how Ray and others have them set up for HH's. Can somebody point me to Ray's site or others with info that's HH-specific? I don't seem to have any URLs for those.



This has a compendium of various solutions. If Pan would like to add info on their underquilt, it is a user edited page.

http://www.imrisk.com/cgi-bin/hwiki.pl?Staying_Warm

[pharper]

To add to what Peter Pan said, id also depends on what synthetic fill you are talking about. Some synthetic bads don't compress well which is normally bad for backpackers, but I have found that a bag that doesn't compress well is actually warmer in a hammock than a down bag for pbvious reasons.SGT Rock,
The bag that I have is a cheap slumberjack-campmor special... Quallofill insulation. I don't know how it compares to other insulations... but I can tell you that it is hard to get it stuffed into a smallish space!

Thank you,
Patrick

[SGT Rock]

Then you may find that if it doesn't compress well, that this bag with a evazote pad at about 10 ounces or a quilt may be all you need to take you down low. Some low tech gear has it's advantages too.

[Mundele]

Hi Guys!! This is my first ever WhiteBlaze post.

Anyway, I have a Hennessy hammock and love it, except that it freezes me to death. I haven't had much luck with the logistics of getting a pad under me while inside it, and I tend to be a cold sleeper, so this thread really interests me.

This may be old hat to you regulars, but I noticed on the HH page (the new stuff section http://www.hennessyhammock.com/new-products.htm) That there's an announcement about an upcoming product...

"COMING SOON! A cold weather camping solution for the Hennessy Hammock is now in final testing. We expect to have it ready for sale by the end of May. Watch this space for more information as it becomes available!"

Does anyone have any information on this? I am wondering whether it will be an add-on to existing hammocks or if you'll have to buy a new one, and how much it will cost and weigh. I've thought about making my own underquilt, but with my pathetic sewing skills, and no good backyard to test it in, I'd rather just buy something I know will work.

(by the way Sgt. Rock, I love your site.)

--Matt

[SGT Rock]

It has been a while since I talked with Tom about his ideas with this. He and I actually were both skeptics of the possibility to make a working underquilt, but Ed Speer and his Pea Pod design, then others with good working ideas like Canoe Blue and Peter pan & Smee's systems have pointed out the solutions to making an underquilt work. I don't know exactly what his system would look like, but I would guess it will be a synthetic because he mentioned prefering synthetic over down once. I am sure he will show whatever it is at Trail Days.

[Mundele]

I'll be in Damascus the weekend before TrailDays. We're taking our Scouts on a bike trip down the Creeper Trail. Too bad we're not going a week later...

I'd be interested in hearing about the underquilt, if anyone gets a chance to see it or try it out.

--Matt

[SGT Rock]

I will be there using the prototype of the "No Sniveling" Quilt. I will be happy to show it off :D

[attroll]

Hi Guys!! This is my first ever WhiteBlaze post.

Anyway, I have a Hennessy hammock and love it, except that it freezes me to death. I haven't had much luck with the logistics of getting a pad under me while inside it, and I tend to be a cold sleeper, so this thread really interests me.

This may be old hat to you regulars, but I noticed on the HH page (the new stuff section http://www.hennessyhammock.com/new-products.htm) That there's an announcement about an upcoming product...

"COMING SOON! A cold weather camping solution for the Hennessy Hammock is now in final testing. We expect to have it ready for sale by the end of May. Watch this space for more information as it becomes available!"

Does anyone have any information on this? I am wondering whether it will be an add-on to existing hammocks or if you'll have to buy a new one, and how much it will cost and weigh. I've thought about making my own underquilt, but with my pathetic sewing skills, and no good backyard to test it in, I'd rather just buy something I know will work.

(by the way Sgt. Rock, I love your site.)

--Matt
I talked to Tom Hennessey about this product about three weeks ago. What he is designing is not a underquilt from what I understand. It is going to be and add on for the HH. From the way he was explaining it to me is that it is a piece of material that goes under the hammock and goes 3.4 of the way to the top and you can stuff what ever you want between the material and the hammock. He is going to have it set up at Trail Days. It might be a nice concept. You could us and cheap light weight sleeping bag between the material and the hammock. I guess I would have to see it.

Rock or anyone going to Trails Days take some pictures of this for us. I would like to see it.

[SGT Rock]

You can count on it. I plan to take a lot of pictures. Maybe make a names and faces section for the site.

[CanoeBlue]

I think that underquilts are the way to go and I like my down underquilt very much. But I see it's roll as a step in the process of addressing the issue of sleeping cold in a hammock rather than a difinitive answer. I don't feel that we have seen the final answer yet.

My expectation is that the final answer will eventually come from Hennessey, as it will need to eliminate the issue of different quilts for different hammocks etc.

It would be very easy for Tom to offer a H-Hammock with a double bottom that would facillitate stuffing pads, extra clothing, fleece or a primaloft quilt .... or combinations of whatever between the main hammock and the outer layer to fit the situation. The extra layer could be a very light layer of DWR so it would add very little weight, it would eliminate the issues of fitting the underquilt, and it would offer tremendous flexibility.

[SGT Rock]

Actually I like the idea of an underquilt and top quilt combination with a lightweight pad such as evazote, and finally, maybe a barrier that could serve as a groundcloth too.

Top Quilt: about 1 pound - something like an Arc Alpinist
Underquilt: about 1 pound - something like your quilt or Smee/Peter Pan's creation.
Pad: about 10 ounces - evazote pad like the one I made from the Oware pads
Groundsheet: about 2 ounces

It would work something like this:

Warm weather - no pad, light quilt over the sleeper - I like to be covered.

Cool weather quilt on top, quilt or pad on bottom. I prefer a pad because it gives me some flexability if I decide to sleep in a building or shelter.

Cold weather - quilt on top, quilt on bottom, pad under you.

VERY cold weather - quilt on top, underquilt on top as well, pad under you, hammock on the ground to take advantage of the earth.

This would give you the same lot as a 2 pound bag (give or take) and the flexabiltiy in weather to adjust your sleep system, just like a clothing layering system. The tyvek, plastic, or mylar barrier would serve as a ground cloth when using the hammock as a bivy and could also serve as a garlington - something new I just learned about from Brian. Basically just a windproof barrier that you hang around the hammock that could also be used to stuff leaves or other available loft around you but outside the hammock.

I think permanently attaching something to the hammock adds unneccissary weight with a single purpose. It would be more convininent if that is the only way you ever use it. Ed Speer's system of outer quilt, pads, and top quilt seems very similar to this same principle.

[alalskaman]

This doesn't have a whole lot to do with you-alls present issue, but a bit of trivia to show you're on the right track - back in the sixties the old Eddie Bauer company had a canvas cot, with tubes of down insulation on the bottom of the canvas, so the sleeper wouldn't compress it. I believe they called it the "nestle down" cot. Not for backpacking, obviously, but I heard from some car campers that they were wonderful. Cheers, bill

[MedicineMan]

The WM Ponderosa/CrazyCreekCrib combo works well for temps 25F and below but there is almost NO room for adjustment. I talked with Ed Speer two days ago as I ordered his system and flexibility is one of the things he touts about his rig. Down underquilts offer flexibility too, of course not as much as a sleeve where you can vary the amount of insulation or choose none at all.
It will be a millenium or two before the perfect hammock is created-like boots/backpacks/etc nothing is perfect but this is sure fun trying all the possible solutions.
Someone mentioned the tacos, well the taco has a place with the underquilt, remember the taco was simply a windproof/water resistent (hopefully breathable) barrier that held insulation against the bottom of the hammock dissallowing crushing of said insulation. The taco has a role with UQ's whether they be the Nest by PeterPan or a cheapo sleeping bag you have fashioned to snug against your HH or Speer or whatever hammock you use.
I have found the sil-nyl (especially the aluminized sil-nyl) taco to be my favorite but only for short use periods of less than 3-5days. I am curious about PeterPans microporous version.

[pharper]

I am curious about PeterPans microporous version.
I have just sent off an order for a 1.5" nest and a shell. I would offer to post reviews on the shell, but I probably won't be using it for cold weather for a while. (It gets hot in Kansas, I am savoring the lows in the mid 60's right now!)

PeterPan made the good point that in a bit cooler summer situation you might be able to get away with just the shell below you and the nest above you... I will be trying that one for sure (if I get anywhere a little cooler).

Speaking of the nest, I posted over on the Yahoo group to see if you had pictures of your underquilt (nest) in action. I thought that I saw them somewhere, but was unable to find them in your member gallery. I just wanted to look and drool at them while I am awaiting mine! I have already looked at PeterPan/Smee's pictures many, many times!:bse

Thanks,
Patrick

[MedicineMan]

but after a week or two i removed them to save server/disc space...
you will get yours soon enough and know that what you will recieve is a professionally made piece of gear that has (you know this but it deserves repeating) other uses besides UQ......

[pharper]

Thank you for letting me know... I really thought that I was losing it! I could have sworn that I had seen the pictures here, but then they were gone!

I am for sure looking forward to getting my quilt, and I know that it won't be long!

Thank you again,
Patrick

[Smee]

Materials for the next eight "Nests" have arrived. Peter_Pan and I will start the construction process this week. Quilts should be available in early July. Six of the eight are spoken for, although we've only received payment for three. If you're interested, contact us at [email protected]. :)

[rgarling]

Medicineman quote: "remember the taco was simply a windproof/water resistent (hopefully breathable) barrier that held insulation against the bottom of the hammock dissallowing crushing of said insulation"



I've been using silnylon for the 'taco' in very humid conditions without a problem, so I think breatheable fabric needs above rather than below.

on the other hand, I have tried a waterproof, silnylon, peapod-type shell that covered the entire footend to above the shoulders (and posted the report under hammock pants in the yahoo group hammockcamping). I don't remember the precise temperature of the test(about 15*F I think), but they would rapidly (within 2 hours) gather a coating of condensation. This indicates a wrap-around shell definitely needs to be breathable.

[MedicineMan]

Aren't you the inventor of the Garlington Taco???
If so finally ( well my first welcome) welcome to Whiteblaze.
I have enjoyed your contributions to hammocking for some time now.
Like you I've had no problems with sil-nyl on the bottom,,,thinking we were only out no more than 3 days at a time and not long enough for it to accumulate...
Talked with Tom Hennessey last week when ordering his 'winter sol.' ,,,in the discussion we talked about Pertex, a fabric known to me for 2 years via the Rab Top Bag and a 6 day trip on Isle Royale, I'm sure he is studying it for future 'solutions'...WM has embraced it, too bag it took 2 years to reach our shores.
but back to moisture, it would seem that the human body is blowing most moisture up and that from the skin is convected by body heat up as well, so maybe too much emphasis on waterproof bottoms.
I was concerned with 'splatter' rain for a while, and used the sil-nyl taco not only to hold various insulations against the hammock bottom but just as much for the splatter rain,,,,now after many many a moon with various insulations on the bottom I have found that splatter wetness is overrated as well...maybe because I setup my hammock Shane Steincamp fashion and very high off the ground.

[rgarling]

Aren't you the inventor of the Garlington Taco???
If so finally ( well my first welcome) welcome to Whiteblaze.

Yes, that's me & thanks. It took a while to find my way over here, but there is quite a colorful and active community here, which I'm enjoying quite a bit.

I saw the picture of Hennessey's cold weather solution, and like it. Hopefully, the bottom will have some adjustment, so you can get whatever you decide to use for insulation up against the hammock bottom. I'll look forward to your comments on this. It could easily get me back into a HH after a couple of years in a top-loader. The quick pitching and light weight of the HH are hard to beat.

I haven't had much problem with splatter either (except for stuff left lying on the ground), and usually, I'm hanging low enough to use the hammock as a lounge chair. So far, no muddy splatter on the bottom!
Ray

[MedicineMan]

Whatever happened to 'WhiteKnight' at the hammockcamping yahoo group,,,seemed he ripped off many including me on an underquilt scheme?????
That was one reason me and many others were glad to see PeterPan/Smee i.e. Jack r Better underquilts hit the scene.

[neo]

My hiking partner (Smee) and I have been actively working and testing hammock insulation ideas and systems for over two years. In our experience, the under-quilt is the best answer. Our homemade, down filled models have undergone a fair amount of testing. Our earliest quilts have seen 80 nights of use and 800+ miles of the AT. We are in the final stages of weight reduction and determination of the best overall attachment system. Read simplest, lightest, with adequate durability.

The real questions are:
1. Does the hammock community like the idea of under-quilts?
2. What design features should go into under-quilts?
3. What do you think?

not every body can afford your excellent quilts,you can easily spend almost a 800.00 bucks on a set up like yours


1.hennessey ultra light hammock 170.00
2.jacks r better tarp 75.00
3.basic 3 season quilt set 455.00
4.weather sheild set 65.00
5.line tensioners 10.00
6.hammock pack cover 28.00
total approx 800.00

[peter_pan]

If you are a hammocker.... this thread has a lot of history....enjoy!

Pan

[take-a-knee]

Pharper,
You are right there are a lot of variables. The UQ which we have named,"nest" is basically good for 40 degrees, Adjusting the dead air space, putting a ground pad between it and the hammock, putting rain gear or other unused soft wear between it and the hammock all add warmth. You can also shield the nest with a wind proof shell, generally good for another5-10 degrees. We will be introducing a microporous polypropolene (read waterproof, windproof, and breathable) shell at Trail Days.I sleep with only a top quilt, someone using a full bag will gain some, but remember that what is between you and the hammock compresses and becomes very inefficient as insulation.

The real issue is what conditions due you want to meet. If you send me a PM with what you want to achieve I'll give you some specific recommendations.

Peter_pan

Pan, your 40 degree rating for the original Nest was conservative, the older 1.5in baffle model was the version I shortened to 60in (removed the last two baffle sections on the foot end). I slept comfortably down in the mid thirties a couple of weeks ago on the BMT with no extra clothing except a JRB Hood on the colder nights. The one night I did get a bit chilled it was because I had tightened the head end drawstrings a bit too tight (this caused a pucker in the UQ), and the wind was blowing between the UQ and the hammock. The current 2in baffle No Sniveler I was using for a topquilt was plenty warm, as expected.

[Egads]

If you are a hammocker.... this thread has a lot of history....enjoy!

Pan

This thread predates Hammock Forums http://www.hammockforums.net/

Does anyone else recall the turmoil on Whiteblaze then?

Wait...nothing has changed :D

[MedicineMan]

Just two days ago i was looking at one of my first UQs we made, it was out of an aluminized material with a sil-nylon shell, after that I converted a Golite sythetic quilt; all this a while before Jacks-R-Better had hit the scene....now if anyone asks me about an underquilt there is only one answer-the JRB Mt. Washington....the sweetest UQ made.

[take-a-knee]

Just two days ago i was looking at one of my first UQs we made, it was out of an aluminized material with a sil-nylon shell, after that I converted a Golite sythetic quilt; all this a while before Jacks-R-Better had hit the scene....now if anyone asks me about an underquilt there is only one answer-the JRB Mt. Washington....the sweetest UQ made.

What hammock are you using the Mt Washington UQ on?

[MedicineMan]

I'm using it on a Hennesseey Lite Racer (dont think it is made anymore).

[take-a-knee]

I'm using it on a Hennesseey Lite Racer (dont think it is made anymore).

Thanks, I have an older Nest with the shorter baffles, I'm eagerly awaiting the 3-season version of the Mt Washington. I'm betting that will be a solid 20F set-up with a No Sniveler/Hood combo.

I think you are right about that Hennessy Racer, I tried in vain to get them to make one from the same fabric they use to make the Hyperlight (for my 120# daughter) but they said just buy a Hyperlight. I guess I'll have to make it myself from Momentum 90.

[MedicineMan]

think about carrying a 1/4 inch closed cell pad..that's what i do, plus God forbid you go to ground you'll have that covered too. I think I got my last 1/4 inch pad from Speer but not sure. I know with it and the Mt. Wash. on the ground I'm good to 20F no doubt.

[take-a-knee]

think about carrying a 1/4 inch closed cell pad..that's what i do, plus God forbid you go to ground you'll have that covered too. I think I got my last 1/4 inch pad from Speer but not sure. I know with it and the Mt. Wash. on the ground I'm good to 20F no doubt.

Yes, I have a couple of 1/4in evazote pads I got from Oware, I trimmed them 28in wide for my torso and tapered them down to 18in at the foot. An UQ is a lot more comfortable but the pads will keep you warm.

That Mt Washington is supposed to be a heater, Kayak Karl started at Springer JAN 01 and had to hunker down in a snowstorm somewhere along the trail. It got down to zero and he said he stayed warm with just base layers, no jackets or anything.

[east_stingray]

Wow... that's impressive. I might have to go ogle the Jacks' sale page some more :D

[MedicineMan]

pad is amazing in what temp range it will give you...on solid frozen ground I think you need to up it to 1/2 inch though...
That pad you cut down, do you remember the weight? I'm carrying one that is still 'square'; i need to get the scissors out and shave an ounce :)

[take-a-knee]

pad is amazing in what temp range it will give you...on solid frozen ground I think you need to up it to 1/2 inch though...
That pad you cut down, do you remember the weight? I'm carrying one that is still 'square'; i need to get the scissors out and shave an ounce :)

My Oware evazote pad trimmed "coffin shaped" (torso 28in wide) weighs a little under seven ounces (it is only 60in long, Speer's pad is 6 ft). I can sleep down into the forties with one and into the twenties with two. As long as I'm sleeping at the lower end of the comfort range of the pad I don't get back sweats too bad. YMMV. Others have posted here that one pad really pushes a marginal underquilt pretty low, and if you have to go to ground, you have a pad.

[MedicineMan]

I'd say 10-15 more in the hammock and 20 on the ground...at 7 ounces (yours) it's hard insurance not to carry...the weight can almost be made up with a lighter underquilt too.
This story has been told before at WB but when doing Maryland I took the lightest UQ I've got. A surprising cold spell came through and the temps were in the upper 30s....too cold for what I had. So for the newbies I again tell this story. I hung my hammock very low to the ground and raked/scooped a big pile of leaves (took half an hour but the noodles were in the cozy)to get enough, and it took 3 re-ties of the hammock to get it to nestle into the leaves when I was in it. Also took the tarp to the ground and heaved leaves on the outside where it met the ground-result, slept HOT that night even though it was colder than the night before. The other thing was getting off the trail and on the other side of a little ridge that blocked wind.

[CowHead]

All of the above ideas and reasonably price, just can't get into people trying to make their first million by overcharging for things

[kayak karl]

My hiking partner (Smee) and I have been actively working and testing hammock insulation ideas and systems for over two years. In our experience, the under-quilt is the best answer. Our homemade, down filled models have undergone a fair amount of testing. Our earliest quilts have seen 80 nights of use and 800+ miles of the AT. We are in the final stages of weight reduction and determination of the best overall attachment system. Read simplest, lightest, with adequate durability.

The real questions are:
1. Does the hammock community like the idea of under-quilts?
2. What design features should go into under-quilts?
3. What do you think?

I used the Mt. Washington JRB for 510 mi 42 nights(on trail). not a problem. dowm below 0*. will probably never take a pad again

[take-a-knee]

All of the above ideas and reasonably price, just can't get into people trying to make their first million by overcharging for things

Dude, you look at the price of any JRB quilt in their line, note the size of the quilt, multiply it times two and figure out how much nylon is required, plus baffle material, velcro, cordlocks, thread etc. THEN total up what 800 fill down costs in addition to all of that. If you can do arithmetic you should be able to figure out JRB won't be on the NYSE anytime soon. If those guys weren't both retired military they likely never would have gotten their business going, 'cause they'd have starved first. Their products aren't cheap, high quality, American made products never were. A workman is worth his wage.

[peter_pan]

MM, KK, TAK et al,

It is refreshing to see the old UQ views still prevail...

MM, your view on the Mt Washington is well supported by its sales... Best part is it is a zero and sub zero capable UQ for the weight of equivelant 20* products.....

KK, thanks for your testimoney on its winter trail use.

The Mt Washington story gets better, in a few days when the Mt washington-3 will debute at TD (Page is up on JRB site now)....Bad news is, like normal the first batch is the small trial run and we expect them to sell out quick then it will be wait 30-45 for the first true production run.

TAK, thanks for defending the value and workmanship of JRB gear.....

Any who have shopped down quilts and down under quilts know that JRB is $40-$100below other USA down gear makers for similiar items.

Any of ya'll going to TD?

Pan

[athiker67]

I just received the "nest", and I have to say the quality of the sewing and material used is A1. It is well worth the money, the fit and finish is unbeatable. Thank you Jacks. I know that any trip I make will be more comfortable because of your hard work and dedication. Joe

[take-a-knee]

I just received the "nest", and I have to say the quality of the sewing and material used is A1. It is well worth the money, the fit and finish is unbeatable. Thank you Jacks. I know that any trip I make will be more comfortable because of your hard work and dedication. Joe

I love my Nest.