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Singletrack
10-12-2002, 11:44
Jack, Most of us would be interested in what you think are the differences between the CONTEMPORARY Trail ie. the Trail as it exists today, and as it existed several years ago? Also there seems to be an increase in alternative Thru Hikes ie. Flip Flops, Leap Frogs etc. Is this something you would consider? Thanks in advance.

Lone Wolf
02-01-2008, 09:52
yes, enquiring minds want to know

camojack
02-01-2008, 09:57
yes, enquiring minds want to know
Wouldn't this be a perfect thread for your usual "it's just a trail"? :confused:

Lone Wolf
02-01-2008, 10:03
Wouldn't this be a perfect thread for your usual "it's just a trail"? :confused:

it's just a trail. with a lot more sucky shelters than before

camojack
02-01-2008, 10:09
it's just a trail. with a lot more sucky shelters than before
That's my boy. :p

I figured, since you went to all the trouble of doing a virtual "dumpster dive", you'd use at least one of your "trademark" phrases. :D
(And now I've afforded you the opportunity to use two of 'em)

Is this your 'Net version of being a "Freegan"? :confused:

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-01-2008, 10:52
From having read Earl Shaffer's account and my own observations about blue blazes I've done that used to be part of the AT -- the trail is much easier than it used to be.
As LW notes, it is now littered with shelters.
The amount of organized 'Trail Magic' has rendered it much less wild than before.
I consider the AT a great beginner trail or step-down (as for the elderly and injured hikers that can't do the more serious trails anymore) trail for long-distance hiking, but not all that challenging because it really isn't all that remote, it is well blazed and maintained, and it has been extensively redesigned to be somewhat easier than trails like the PCT and CDT. Now those are challenging trails.

hopefulhiker
02-01-2008, 11:01
In some places it is like an extended "block party"

Jim Adams
02-01-2008, 11:10
Alot of the original A.T. ran on existing forest service roads if I'm not mistaken. I remember hearing something about a quoted conversation with Earl during his last thru where he said that the trail was alot harder now and it was killing him.

I did 1000 miles of the PCT in '07 and never found anything as hard or challenging as the A.T. The actual footbed is a sidewalk compared to the A.T.

geek

Footslogger
02-01-2008, 11:17
Ironic ...this thread is a "Question for Jack Tarlin" and he's liable to end up being the only one who doesn't reply :-?

'Slogger

camojack
02-01-2008, 11:21
Ironic ...this thread is a "Question for Jack Tarlin" and he's liable to end up being the only one who doesn't reply :-?
'Slogger
Especially since the question was first posed over 5 years ago, with no responses...until Lone Wolf dug it out of the trash today. :D

weary
02-01-2008, 11:26
From having read Earl Shaffer's account and my own observations about blue blazes I've done that used to be part of the AT -- the trail is much easier than it used to be.
As LW notes, it is now littered with shelters.
The amount of organized 'Trail Magic' has rendered it much less wild than before.
I consider the AT a great beginner trail or step-down (as for the elderly and injured hikers that can't do the more serious trails anymore) trail for long-distance hiking, but not all that challenging because it really isn't all that remote, it is well blazed and maintained, and it has been extensively redesigned to be somewhat easier than trails like the PCT and CDT. Now those are challenging trails.
Earl thought the trail was more difficult when he last walked it in 1998. The Maine trail is certainly more difficult than it was in the 30s, 40s and 50s when it tended to go from sporting camp to sporting camp, and bypassed numerous high mountains. However, the construction of roads has made access easier.

The number of hikers has been on a downward trend for more than a decade, though there was a brief peak in 2000 for the millennial. This makes for a wilder trail, though fewer hikers is a little ominous. People tend not to support things that aren't used.

Then and now, Maine has been the most remote and wildest section. I drove 100 miles last night and attended a three hour meeting as a few of us struggle to keep it that way.

Weary www.matlt.org

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-01-2008, 11:32
I have it on good authority that LW is good at this (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b47/lowcarbscoop/LW-Crockspoon.jpg)

Sly
02-01-2008, 11:33
I did 1000 miles of the PCT in '07 and never found anything as hard or challenging as the A.T. The actual footbed is a sidewalk compared to the A.T.


Not as challenging? You fell 1650 miles short. :rolleyes:

hopefulhiker
02-01-2008, 11:34
I think Jack ought to write a book.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-01-2008, 11:35
Earl thought the trail was more difficult when he last walked it in 1998. The Maine trail is certainly more difficult than it was in the 30s, 40s and 50s when it tended to go from sporting camp to sporting camp, and bypassed numerous high mountains. However, the construction of roads has made access easier.

The number of hikers has been on a downward trend for more than a decade, though there was a brief peak in 2000 for the millennial. This makes for a wilder trail, though fewer hikers is a little ominous. People tend not to support things that aren't used.Weary, do you think Earl's observation had anything to do with the fact that he was 50 years older the second time around?

I, too, am concerned that hiking in general is down somewhat. This more than anything else has lead to me becoming active in the effort to protect trails in general - not just the AT.

dessertrat
02-01-2008, 11:35
I consider the AT a great beginner trail or step-down (as for the elderly and injured hikers that can't do the more serious trails anymore) trail for long-distance hiking, but not all that challenging because it really isn't all that remote, it is well blazed and maintained, and it has been extensively redesigned to be somewhat easier than trails like the PCT and CDT. Now those are challenging trails.

I hope you aren't including Maine in that assessment-- if that ain't serious hiking, I'd hate to see what you call serious.:o

Jim Adams
02-01-2008, 11:35
Not as challenging? You fell 1650 miles short. :rolleyes:

I got burned out on hiking and also ran out of money!

geek

Lone Wolf
02-01-2008, 11:37
I think Jack ought to write a book.

about what?

warraghiyagey
02-01-2008, 11:40
about what?
Not sure he had anything past the Jack ought to write a book idea.

rafe
02-01-2008, 11:44
From having read Earl Shaffer's account and my own observations about blue blazes I've done that used to be part of the AT -- the trail is much easier than it used to be.
As LW notes, it is now littered with shelters.
The amount of organized 'Trail Magic' has rendered it much less wild than before.I consider the AT a great beginner trail or step-down (as for the elderly and injured hikers that can't do the more serious trails anymore) trail for long-distance hiking, but not all that challenging because it really isn't all that remote, it is well blazed and maintained, and it has been extensively redesigned to be somewhat easier than trails like the PCT and CDT. Now those are challenging trails.

Wrong on several counts, Dino. The trail is harder in most cases. Read Earl Shaffer's account from his last hike. He was quite adamant on this issue.

AT as a beginner trail? Maybe, from the point of view of navigation and blazing. But from what I hear, the PCT is a much easier walk than the AT, with far less daily vertical.

Lack of wilderness is regrettable, but then again, the AT is subject to sprawl in a way that the PCT and CDT aren't. OTOH, it was designed to be "maximally accessible" to folks in eastern cities.

I'm not sure the number of shelters has changed significantly. It seems to me that the new shelters being built have been roughly matched by old ones torn down. Certainly in the Whites, there hasn't been a significant change, for at least the last 25 years or so.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-01-2008, 11:44
Not as challenging? You fell 1650 miles short. :rolleyes:Sly, since you have hiked the PCT and the AT, which do you think is more challenging? How about the CDT?

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-01-2008, 11:48
When I said "from having read Earl Shaffer's account" I was referring to his account of his first hike - not to his comments. I can't help but feel his thoughts on his second hike were influenced by his advanced age.

There are many trails I experience as being harder than I remember them being -- and those trails haven't changed - I have.

rafe
02-01-2008, 11:59
When I said "from having read Earl Shaffer's account" I was referring to his account of his first hike - not to his comments. I can't help but feel his thoughts on his second hike were influenced by his advanced age.

There are many trails I experience as being harder than I remember them being -- and those trails haven't changed - I have.

Given that Earl thru-hiked three times, I'll take it on his authority. Time and again, in his newest account, he says, "the trail wasn't like this last time..."

When you move a trail from the road to the ridge, it gets harder.

The changes work both ways, though. The trail got moved off the road onto Pond Mtn. in 89 or 90. I'm told that since then, the path over Pond Mtn. has been made somewhat easier. I also heard from LW recently that the NOBO climb out of Sweetwater Gap has been made easier, somehow. (Maybe with switchbacks, I dunno.)

There's nothing wimpy about the trail in the Whites, and trail reroutings there are rare. ISTM the designers of the AT through the Whites had a bit of a masochistic streak. I cursed my arse off coming down off Wildcat (sobo.)

camojack
02-01-2008, 12:05
Given that Earl thru-hiked three times, I'll take it on his authority. Time and again, in his newest account, he says, "the trail wasn't like this last time..."

When you move a trail from the road to the ridge, it gets harder.

The changes work both ways, though. The trail got moved off the road onto Pond Mtn. in 89 or 90. I'm told that since then, the path over Pond Mtn. has been made somewhat easier. I also heard from LW recently that the NOBO climb out of Sweetwater Gap has been made easier, somehow. (Maybe with switchbacks, I dunno.)

There's nothing wimpy about the trail in the Whites, and trail reroutings there are rare. ISTM the designers of the AT through the Whites had a bit of a masochistic streak. I cursed my arse off coming down off Wildcat (sobo.)
Perfectly understandable. It's pretty treacherous in spots...

rafe
02-01-2008, 12:15
What's particularly ironic about Wildcat is that I've skied there often. On boards, I'd have made the trip from summit to base in well under five minutes. :D
By foot, with a heavy pack, that 2200' vertical drop took nearly three hours. But there's at least 300' of climbing on that descent, so the drop is more like 2500 feet.

Sly
02-01-2008, 12:20
Sly, since you have hiked the PCT and the AT, which do you think is more challenging? How about the CDT?

AT has more elevation per mile (harder in that respect) but IMO both the PCT and CDT are more challenging. What makes them more challenging are length (2650, 2700+), fords, route finding, waterless stretches, desert heat, snow pack, resupply, altitude....

Lone Wolf
02-01-2008, 12:25
AT has more elevation per mile (harder in that respect) but IMO both the PCT and CDT are more challenging. What makes them more challenging are length (2650, 2700+), fords, route finding, waterless stretches, desert heat, snow pack, resupply....

OMG! there's fords? no ferryman? how on earth do you western hikers do it?

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-01-2008, 12:25
AT has more elevation per mile (harder in that respect) but IMO both the PCT and CDT are more challenging. What makes them more challenging are length (2650, 2700+), fords, route finding, waterless stretches, desert heat, snow pack, fords, resupply....Thank you for expanding on what makes the CDT and PCT more challenging. I know it isn't all about elevation gain, but I also knew no one would take my opinion seriously because I haven't hiked the entirety of those trails.

rafe
02-01-2008, 12:27
OMG! there's fords? no ferryman? how on earth do you western hikers do it?

Same way we do all those streams in Maine, right now... :rolleyes: The Kennebec's just a bit deeper and wider, is all.

Sly
02-01-2008, 12:32
OMG! there's fords? no ferryman? how on earth do you western hikers do it?

I don't think there's any as wide as the Kennebec, but many are swift and/or deep. Generally if you can't get across in the afternoon you wait until morning as there's less snow melt. Much like crossing the K before release.

emerald
02-01-2008, 12:41
Dino, you might read Earl Shaffer's journal from his 1965 hike (http://www.trailjournals.com/earlshaffer/).

weary
02-01-2008, 12:56
Wrong on several counts, Dino. The trail is harder in most cases. Read Earl Shaffer's account from his last hike. He was quite adamant on this issue.

AT as a beginner trail? Maybe, from the point of view of navigation and blazing. But from what I hear, the PCT is a much easier walk than the AT, with far less daily vertical.

Lack of wilderness is regrettable, but then again, the AT is subject to sprawl in a way that the PCT and CDT aren't. OTOH, it was designed to be "maximally accessible" to folks in eastern cities.

I'm not sure the number of shelters has changed significantly. It seems to me that the new shelters being built have been roughly matched by old ones torn down. Certainly in the Whites, there hasn't been a significant change, for at least the last 25 years or so.
Earl's age certainly impacted his views. But MATC deliberately made the trail more difficult starting in the late fifties. During the 70s and 80s two thirds of the Maine trail was moved, mostly to more difficult terrain, and a rougher foot path.

Several shelters were relocated, but I can only think of one brand new shelter location. Sadly the new East branch shelter was put in the wrong place -- too close to one existing shelter and too far from the next. Such things sometimes happen when volunteers get enthusiastic.

Weary

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-01-2008, 12:57
Dino, you might read Earl Shaffer's journal from his 1965 hike (http://www.trailjournals.com/earlshaffer/).Thank you for the suggestion. I will try to locate a copy.

Sly
02-01-2008, 13:19
Thank you for the suggestion. I will try to locate a copy.

Just follow the link, his journal is reposted to TJ.

Spirit Walker
02-01-2008, 13:46
The AT has many short steep climbs that are physically challenging, especially for those of us with bad knees. They've rebuilt the trail in many areas to make it easier (i.e. Katahdin), but it still isn't easy, physically. Hand over hand rock climbs don't exist on the other long trails, unless you're hiking where the trail is covered with snow (or you get off trail.)

The PCT is hot and dry, with long long stretches between water, but the treadway is very easy and the grade of most of the climbs quite gentle. If you are in the Sierras in June, snow, altitude and water crossings are a challenge, but most hikers are through that section in about 3 weeks. Unless you're hiking in a high snow year, the snow/snowmelt issue is fairly limited in duration. The challenge on the PCT is more mental - keeping going for long miles for day after day. You start out needing to do fairly big miles because of the lack of water - which is hard for a beginner. You also need to carry a lot of water - we often hiked carrying 6 liters a day. Heavy!

The CDT challenge is in its remoteness and the need to learn how to navigate in areas with faint or no trail. There are some long stretches between resupply, meaning pack weight is an issue. Water is a problem (quality more than quantity) in some places, and snow and river crossings can make life difficult, (southbounders in the Bob Marshall have some interesting fords) and above all the changeability of the weather adds to the challenge. On our SB hike we had snow fall on us on July 4 and September 3 - then 4 more snowstorms after that. NB we had snow fall in the San Juans in mid-June then a couple of snowstorms in September and October. In 2006 hikers a week ahead of us ran into temps around 110 in the Wyoming desert. We hiked at 90 degrees in the high mountains of Colorado. Then there's altitude, which can slow you down or make you sick.

So - IMO, the CDt was the most challenging all around (but also most beautiful and for me the most fun), the AT was the most physically challenging (especially to the knees) and PCT the most mentally challenging.

A-Train
02-01-2008, 14:07
yes, enquiring minds want to know

You have a unhealthy obsession for Jack:eek:

Lone Wolf
02-01-2008, 14:09
You have a unhealthy obsession for Jack:eek:

me and warren both

mweinstone
02-01-2008, 14:13
dear jack,
my ass itches. what can i do?
matty in philly.

pics of baltimore jack tarlin brucein.

A-Train
02-01-2008, 14:27
dear jack,
my ass itches. what can i do?
matty in philly.

pics of baltimore jack tarlin brucein.

Post of the year

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-01-2008, 14:43
Just follow the link, his journal is reposted to TJ.Thank you. I need something to read as I've backed off from this site some.

hobojoe
02-01-2008, 14:50
The trail was originaly in black and white, it was colorized shortly after completion in 1937.

emerald
02-01-2008, 14:58
I wouldn't have believed you had I not seen pictures of it myself.;)

Jack Tarlin
02-01-2008, 15:01
First off, my apologies to Singletrack for never answering his original question, which I must have missed somehow. My guess is that when this thread first appeared, I was either in the woods or on the road somewhere.

But as for how the Trail, or how the thru-hiking experience has changed in recent years, I'd say this:

*The biggest change is the information explosion......the Internet, all the
new guidebooks; maps available On-Line; GPS trackers, etc. Hikers simply
have MUCH more information at their disposal before they even start their
hikes. And while there are certain advantages to this, there are
disadvantages, too. A lot of the spontaneity is gone. In the old days,
hikers would go into a strange town, and only after getting there would
discover that there was a friendly local who took in travellers, or that the
local ice cream gave out free cones to hikers. Nowadays, the hikers know
all about this sort of thing ahead of time, and tend to micro-manage and
overplan their trips, rather than just letting things happen.

*Gear is different. People are travelling lighter and faster. They are getting
to towns faster as a result, but trip-length overall is still 24-27 weeks for
most folks. People are taking the same ammount of time to complete their
journeys, but they're spending less of their journey actually in the woods.

*There are lots more facilities, businesses, hostels than there used to be,
especially down south. People are spending only a few days at a time in
the woods; in the older days, people would be out in the hills for 6-9 days
at a time or more. The trip is getting a lot easier as a result, and the hikers
are getting more pampered, and in some cases spoiled. They get used to
having it easy, or having a cool place to stop and kickback every few days;
when they DON'T get this, they get grumpy. In short, hikers are getting
soft and complacent, and not as self-reliant as they used to be. In the old
days, people would hike in weeklong stretches that would be broken up by
short town layovers. What we see today is people spending massive periods
of time laying over in town, interspersed with short burst of hiking.

*The Trail Magic thing may be getting out of hand. In the old days if some
guy at a parking lot gave you a soda pop or an apple, it was a big deal, and
you'd tell all your friends. Nowadays, you'll see hikers finding a cooler at a
Trail crossing and bitching because there isn't five kinds of organic juice
inside. Hikers are getting pampered and petted, and it gets to their heads
sometimes. The thru-hiker "Air of Entitlement" is seen a lot more often than
it was in the past.

*Hikers take the Trail less seriously. In the old days, if one yellow-blazed or
skipped sections, this was kept private, as most people would be ashamed
to have others know they didn't hike the whole Trail. Nowadays, it's no
big deal, and virtually everyone skips bits here and there. In short, the idea
of a thru-hike being a hike of the Trail in its entirety is no longer important
to most folks.

Anyway, the Trail has changed a lot in recent years; these are only a few things that come immediately to mind.

warren doyle
02-02-2008, 14:25
Post #35 - Very good!

bfitz
02-02-2008, 14:37
Post #35 - Very good!Just curious, what other trails have you hiked on? How about in foreign countries? Any amazing non-AT adventures we haven't heard about? What differentiates the AT from those others the most?

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-02-2008, 14:40
....IMO, the CDt was the most challenging all around (but also most beautiful and for me the most fun), the AT was the most physically challenging (especially to the knees) and PCT the most mentally challenging.Thank you for taking the time to pen this entire post. Excellent info. Kudos to you.

rafe
02-02-2008, 14:47
bfitz: Coastal Path in England. My wife and I did a few day-hikes on it. Mellow and scenic. Never more than 10 miles between pub stops! AT is pretty extreme compared to most public paths in Europe.

bfitz
02-02-2008, 14:54
bfitz: Coastal Path in England. My wife and I did a few day-hikes on it. Mellow and scenic. Never more than 10 miles between pub stops! AT is pretty extreme compared to most public paths in Europe.I have a big dream of hiking the british isles, especially a sort of thru-hike of the ways of Ireland...I've yet to do much research but a couple of buddies of mine did a trip...two guys, one bike. They're sickos with a triathlon problem, but they had a blast...pubs every night and astounded folks trying to get them too hammered to leave the next morning. People would even call ahead to the next town and tell them to try to get these guys too hammered to leave. I'm not sure what kind of daily mileage they did but it was ridiculous. Every morning hung over they would flip a coin to see who got the bike first.

rafe
02-02-2008, 15:02
Europeans have a rather different attitude about their long paths. They're not thought of as venues for feats of physical prowess or deprivation... but rather, as places to visit, often. Preferably with picnic baskets, children, and grannies in tow. Prolly why my wife liked it so much. There are long stretches (on the Coastal path) that are in fact, paved walkways.

bfitz
02-02-2008, 15:14
Europeans have a rather different attitude about their long paths. They're not thought of as venues for feats of physical prowess or deprivation... but rather, as places to visit, often. Preferably with picnic baskets, children, and grannies in tow. Prolly why my wife liked it so much. There are long stretches (on the Coastal path) that are in fact, paved walkways.
Yeah...I imagine that would fit right into my hiking style.

My other dream is to go to New Zealand and hike from Rivendell to Mordor along the Ridges of Noldor.;)

rafe
02-02-2008, 15:17
My other dream is to go to New Zealand and hike from Rivendell to Mordor along the Ridges of Noldor.;)

No joke, there's a lotta good hiking in NZ. My father and stepmother did a 30-mile guided hike down there... both were in their 60s at the time. They had a blast.

bfitz
02-02-2008, 15:20
I know it, New Zealand is like #4 on my list. And only because it's so far away, otherwise I'd hit it immediately.

jrwiesz
02-02-2008, 15:43
Another mans point of view for all to consider.
David Ryan wrote in his book, "Long Distance Hiking on the Appalachian Trail for the Older Adventurer". Quote, "All three trails have difficult hiking. Some claim that the Appalachian Trail, despite its lower elevations, may have the hardest hiking. This is because many trails in the West have been graded to accommodate pack animals. The Appalachian Trail does not have pack animals and in many sections the trail shoots straight up without a switchback. Local clubs who are responsible for trail maintainence have gone out of their way to make their particular section memorable. If you look closely at a trail map you can see how the trail seems to meander to catch every peak, knob or crest. When Earl Shaffer, the first person to hike the trail end to end in 1948, hiked the trail again in 1998 to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of his first thru-hike, he complained that the trail wad too hard. It may be because he was seventy-nine or that the Appalachian Trail is tough." End Quote.

dessertrat
02-02-2008, 16:03
The trail was originaly in black and white, it was colorized shortly after completion in 1937.

We joke, but to this day, I get a bit of a mental block when trying to imagine the early 20th century being in as full color as today. The odd thing is that I have no problem picturing pre-photographic eras as being normal in color.

Heater
02-02-2008, 16:33
dear jack,
my ass itches. what can i do?
matty in philly.

pics of baltimore jack tarlin brucein.

Not jack, but I say... scratch it...

Scratch my ass. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=27TgJjhOt34&watch_response)

Heater
02-02-2008, 16:36
Maybe you have worms?!! :eek:

Heater
02-02-2008, 16:39
Hmmm... dunno whut happened there?!!

mudhead
02-02-2008, 18:48
That reminds me of the time the dog ate some Christmas tinsel. The long silver kind. Intact.

bfitz
02-02-2008, 18:48
Remember the cheech and chong movie when cheech was in a straight jacket and couldn't scratch himself?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYpP9jDGqqw&feature=related

GGS2
02-02-2008, 19:17
We joke, but to this day, I get a bit of a mental block when trying to imagine the early 20th century being in as full color as today. The odd thing is that I have no problem picturing pre-photographic eras as being normal in color.

The bright artificial aniline dyes came in in the mid Victorian era around 1850. Before then there were no permanent greens and purple was very costly, which is why it was a royal color. Now we have uv shifted dyes like hunter orange and flame red. Most colors in the early 20th century were much more subdued than we are now used to. Lots of browns, blues and grays. Much the same with paints. So those times were less colorful in that sense. And color photography didn't really take off until after WW II with Kodachrome.

The sorts of colors you see in the dusty westerns were a fairly true picture of turn of the century America. So black and white, or sepia tones aren't far wrong, either. That said, the natural colors of rocks, feathers, flowers and foliage haven't changed much.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-02-2008, 21:41
dear jack,
my ass itches. what can i do?
matty in philly.
Maybe you have worms?!! :eek:Stay away from Miss Janet's - the last entity there with worms had puppies :eek: