Trail magic question [Archive]

Hoop Time

07-23-2008, 13:11

get ready to be criticized for leaving the cooler.

Personally, I would like to see more beer! But I know that can be illegal with underages hikers partaking. But still, the best trail magic is ice cold beer!

Actually, I feel that criticism would be deserved. I meant to go back out to pick it up and did not get a chance. I plan to check in with the lady who is the farm's caretaker this time to let her know we will be refilling the cooler weekly through the summer and will pick it up to save for next summer when we go on "hiatus."

As for beer, yeah, my first effort at trail magic was driving a bunch of folks I met while doing the half-gallon challenge story into town for beer (and giving them advise on how to stay below the park rangers' radar since it is technically illegal in Pa. state parks). But I would not want to leave beer sitting where anybody of any age could get it.

The hikers will need to wait a day or two to get to the Doyle for the brews.

Lone Wolf

07-23-2008, 13:16

Actually, I feel that criticism would be deserved. I meant to go back out to pick it up and did not get a chance. I plan to check in with the lady who is the farm's caretaker this time to let her know we will be refilling the cooler weekly through the summer and will pick it up to save for next summer when we go on "hiatus."

As for beer, yeah, my first effort at trail magic was driving a bunch of folks I met while doing the half-gallon challenge story into town for beer (and giving them advise on how to stay below the park rangers' radar since it is technically illegal in Pa. state parks). But I would not want to leave beer sitting where anybody of any age could get it.

The hikers will need to wait a day or two to get to the Doyle for the brews.

never leave food, coolers, etc. overnight at road crossings, in the woods or at shelters.

minnesotasmith

07-23-2008, 13:29

Just by refilling all their water jugs with tap water, taking their trash, and giving them a kind word.

Of course, if you want to give them a hot meal and a cold drink, tell them the weather report, and throw in a sandwich for later, that's even better. :)

Hoop Time

07-23-2008, 13:39

never leave food, coolers, etc. overnight at road crossings, in the woods or at shelters.

This spot is a picnic table under the barn overhang at the local trail maint. HQ. Not in the woods, shelter or road crossing. And we really only left about enough for one day of hikers, not wanting to leave stuff that would be there overnight.

Still not a good idea? I had read in trail journals about folks coming upon coolers left for the hikers, so thought it would be OK, but I came here for advice so if it is not a good idea, we won't do it.

Lone Wolf

07-23-2008, 13:41

This spot is a picnic table under the barn overhang at the local trail maint. HQ. Not in the woods, shelter or road crossing. And we really only left about enough for one day of hikers, not wanting to leave stuff that would be there overnight

that seems fine to me then as long as the staff is aware of it

Yahtzee

07-23-2008, 13:51

Wassup Hoop. Harrisburger here. Leaving coolers is cool. Just be responsible.

If I could make a suggestion, tho. There is a severe lack of water between Boiling Springs and Duncannon. Scott Farm is basically the only place for a long, long stretch. So, you want to know what hikers would like? Water at a road crossing other than Scott Farm. Perhaps where the trail crosses Trindle Road. Or where it crosses PA 850. Also, check out the ATC Center in Boiling Springs. It is quaint, but would be a great learning experience for your daughter. If there are some hikers there, I'm sure they would be happy to answer her questions.

Besides water? A lot of hikers go crazy for fruit. Others for soda. Cheap dollar store soda is good enough. Don't have to go overboard or break the budget.

It's getting fairly late in the season for northbounders, tho. You may want to wait for a spell til the Southbounders to start rolling thru. They would REALLY appreciate it because, if I had to guess, they are the receipients of alot less magic than NOBO's. Call Vicki or Pat at the Doyle to get an idea of when southbounders are coming thru.

When I am in town in season, I usually head up to Peters Mountain to dole out the goodies. Always a blast. I get more out of it than they do. Name, I walk away jealous.

Pedaling Fool

07-23-2008, 13:59

Hoop Time

07-23-2008, 14:42

I'm personnaly opposed to the so called "Trail Magic". My best memories (stories), such as the ones probably related to your daughter, are the ones created during the hard-times endured on the trail. I'm not concerned with the issue of trash, that's a short term problem which is easily repaired. I'm more concerned about how "trail magic" will evolve, I can see it leading to commerialization of the AT. True appreciation of the trail will only come through hours of blood, sweat and tears.

Fer Chrissakes, from what I am told, you can get a burger every 20 minutes through the Shenandoah Mountains and there are shelters you can order Dominoes from.

How someone doing something kind for hikers, who from my experience seem to really appreciate it, will lead to commercialization is beyond me.

It's not like we are setting up a lemonade stand and selling it for a buck a cup.

I appreciate your purist views. I have heard about folks like you, who risk wading through flooded streams for fear of not being pure enough if they detour to a bridge.

No doubt the memories of the tough times are a big part of the trail experience for most hikers. But that does not have to be to the exclusion of memories of acts of kindness or the good times they experience.

In fact, I would argue that folks trying to practice a little trail magic actually can help stem commercialization. Mighty tough for someone to sell something if it is being given away by someone else.

emerald

07-23-2008, 14:46

Hoop Time, thank you for showing the courtesy to solicit advice on this important question. It involves a topic about which there are quite a variety of perspectives and some folks can get more than just a little passionate at times about their own point of view.

I would suggest you click on Trail Magic (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.3075131/k.29C2/TrailMagic.htm) to read ATC's web page by that name. It incorporates all of the various viewpoints in a manner which is likely as agreeable to everyone as possible.

So long as those who manage the facility at which you want to conduct your activities do not object, no one else should either and those who might feel so inclined would do more good to express their concerns to the facility's manager.

Pedaling Fool

07-23-2008, 14:50

Fer Chrissakes, from what I am told, you can get a burger every 20 minutes through the Shenandoah Mountains and there are shelters you can order Dominoes from.

How someone doing something kind for hikers, who from my experience seem to really appreciate it, will lead to commercialization is beyond me.

It's not like we are setting up a lemonade stand and selling it for a buck a cup.

I appreciate your purist views. I have heard about folks like you, who risk wading through flooded streams for fear of not being pure enough if they detour to a bridge.

No doubt the memories of the tough times are a big part of the trail experience for most hikers. But that does not have to be to the exclusion of memories of acts of kindness or the good times they experience.

In fact, I would argue that folks trying to practice a little trail magic actually can help stem commercialization. Mighty tough for someone to sell something if it is being given away by someone else.
I don't know you, but it's painfully obvious you don't know me if you think I'm a purist. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm not saying it will lead to commercialization, I just don't know, but I do see the potential. Look how far it has come since the 80s, when the term trail magic meant something. Are we at the peak of this thing now called "trail magic", I don't think so, how much further will this thing evolve? I would like to see it just go away, but I know there's not much chance of that.

Bearpaw

07-23-2008, 14:54

The only time trail magic aggravated me during my thru-hike was when I heard other thru-hikers saying something like "I sure hope there's some trail magic at the next road crossing." It irked me because I felt like they were expecting free stuff.

I was a purist on my hike. IMO, trail magic in no way cheapens the experience. In the times I encountered it, it was always a pleasant surprise that enriched my hiking day. It didn't make a bit of difference in my passing the white blazes or carrying my pack. But it sure was nice to think that in this rough and tumble day and age, people still do nice things for others just because.

And I definitely apreciated a soda out of the blue.

Bearpaw

07-23-2008, 14:56

I don't know you, but it's painfully obvious you don't know me if you think I'm a purist. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm not saying it will lead to commercialization, I just don't know, but I do see the potential. Look how far it has come since the 80s, when the term trail magic meant something. Are we at the peak of this thing now called "trail magic", I don't think so, how much further will this thing evolve? I would like to see it just go away, but I know there's not much chance of that.

You could try the Continental Divide Trail. There's not a lot out there. The AT is just a very different monster of a trail.

However, I did encounter a cooler with sodas and cookies halfway through my Colorado Trail through-hike in 2006. Again, totally unexpected, but very much appreciated.

Pedaling Fool

07-23-2008, 15:08

You could try the Continental Divide Trail. There's not a lot out there. The AT is just a very different monster of a trail.

However, I did encounter a cooler with sodas and cookies halfway through my Colorado Trail through-hike in 2006. Again, totally unexpected, but very much appreciated.
I've heard, maybe one day.

The only time trail magic aggravated me during my thru-hike was when I heard other thru-hikers saying something like "I sure hope there's some trail magic at the next road crossing." It irked me because I felt like they were expecting free stuff.

I was a purist on my hike. IMO, trail magic in no way cheapens the experience. In the times I encountered it, it was always a pleasant surprise that enriched my hiking day. It didn't make a bit of difference in my passing the white blazes or carrying my pack. But it sure was nice to think that in this rough and tumble day and age, people still do nice things for others just because.

And I definitely apreciated a soda out of the blue.
A very good point. Probably a significant factor in why I hate TM. It's just pathetic to see how hikers act like children when expecting TM and even worse how they act when it does not materialize.

jesse

07-23-2008, 15:10

Wassup Hoop. Harrisburger here. Leaving coolers is cool. Just be responsible...

Leaving coolers on public land is irresponsible. Its littering, there is no way to litter responsibly.

Bearpaw

07-23-2008, 15:17

Leaving coolers on public land is irresponsible. Its littering, there is no way to litter responsibly.

In the case of Scott Farm, I'm pretty sure it was private property, owned by the local trail-maintaining club. I hit it on a Saturday and it was closed. A cooler there wouldn't be a big deal, especially with staff there.

In Colorado, the cooler was a big industrial job, with a latch that sealed it closed as well as a bear cannister might. The person who left it even included a bag specifically for the trash remains which stayed inside the cooler.

Call it littering if you want, but I've used a bear cannister as a food cache before on longer hikes, gotten my food en route, when recovered the cannister later when the hike was done. If that's littering then I'm guilty, but I don't see the correlation.

Lead Dog

07-23-2008, 15:23

Trail Magic IS a great thing. I've both given and received. Cold beverages are always nice from sodas to beer. I'm a fruit lover so fresh fruits were a real treet to find. Most folks are chocolate lovers so brownies and cookies are their pick. You will find hikers are appreciative of any trail magic they come accross so just enjoy what you are doing and leave what you can.

Lone Wolf

07-23-2008, 15:28

leave what you can.

but not unattended at road crossings or in the woods

Hoop Time

07-23-2008, 15:33

Thanks for all the input. That link JG provided led to a page that includes a link to some articles on trail magi (http://trailmagicarticles.blogspot.com/)c that actually lend some credence to his commercialization concerns, though I would not characterize the commericalized attempts as trail magic as it has been explained to me.

I will continue to monitor the responses here to decide how to proceed. My guess would be with a combination of things. Maybe we'll just bake a bunch of cookies and see if Trail Angel Mary would be kind enough to pass them out. That would also give me an excuse to stop at the Doyle for a cold beverage and one of their awesome burgers.

Whatever we do, we will take care to avoid any littering. Hikers pass through here, but I live here. I don't want the area trashed either.

Thanks again.

Sly

07-23-2008, 15:35

Hoop, don't be discouraged by the negative critizism. I think it's fine leaving a cooler at Scott farm with the caretakers permission, especially since there's a trash barrel there. However, you may want to switch your styroform cooler for a heavier duty one.

Pedaling Fool

07-23-2008, 15:36

...You will find hikers are appreciative of any trail magic they come accross so just enjoy what you are doing and leave what you can.
Not arguing with you LD, you just reminded me of another point. And that is it's my opinion, based on observation, that hikers nowadays have moved beyond mere appreciation, they've come to expect TM, that's why I see an opening for commercialization.

Lone Wolf

07-23-2008, 15:41

Not arguing with you LD, you just reminded me of another point. And that is it's my opinion, based on observation, that hikers nowadays have moved beyond mere appreciation, they've come to expect TM, that's why I see an opening for commercialization.

just like feeding bears :D real trail magic hardly involves feeding hikers

Yahtzee

07-23-2008, 15:45

Leaving coolers on public land is irresponsible. Its littering, there is no way to litter responsibly.

It is not littering if one plans on returning to pick up the cooler. Now, TrailAngelMary has been through this with the Park Service and they frown on leaving coolers. Thus it is an arbitrary guideline that one can choose not follow if they feel they can do so responsibly. Speeders, I mean nearly every driver on the road, break actual laws everyday. 2 miles over. 5 miles over. All the same. People making a choice. The world hasn't fallen apart because, despite our weak moments, human beings are rational creatures.

The actual facts are completely opposed to your generalized argument. Bearpaw will leave the cooler out in the morning. Pick it up at night. There is nothing irresponsible about that. Against a guideline, possibly. Irresponsible to leave a cooler that one plans on picking back up less than 10 hours later? Not by an rational measure. Littering? Not by any legal measure. PA Code, Title 17, Chapters 11 & 21, which covers this very topic infers that a prerequisite of littering is disposal of the property. CleanPaForests defines littering as "Littering and illegal dumping are acts of improper disposal of trash." Bearpaw's cooler is neither being disposed of nor is it trash.

Therefore, what Bearpaw is doing could not be conceived of as littering by any rational or legal stretch of the imagination. Only moral indignation can supply such weak reasoning.

This is a fun thing for a father and daughter to do together and it is being done responsibly. Why someone not a Park Ranger enforcing an arbitrary guideline would care is beyond me.

emerald

07-23-2008, 15:53

In the case of Scott Farm, I'm pretty sure it was private property, owned by the local trail-maintaining club. I hit it on a Saturday and it was closed. A cooler there wouldn't be a big deal, especially with staff there.

When in doubt, check it out (http://www.geocities.com/cvatclub/).

emerald

07-23-2008, 16:04

Bearpaw's cooler is neither being disposed of nor is it trash.

Therefore, what Bearpaw is doing could not be conceived of as littering by any rational or legal stretch of the imagination. Only moral indignation can supply such weak reasoning.

Maybe so, but could not such an activity have an adverse impact upon wildlife:( including thruhikers;)?

jesse

07-23-2008, 16:10

It is not littering if one plans on returning to pick up the cooler...

is to............

Yahtzee

07-23-2008, 16:16

Maybe so, but could not such an activity not have an adverse impact upon wildlife:( including thruhikers;)?

Certainly coolers could attract wildlife and I am certain this is part of the reason for the Park Service guideline. However, intermittent leaving of a cooler on the side of a road shouldn't cause too much trouble, IMO. And if a cooler is plundered, quit putting the coolers out in that spot. That would be the rational, responsible thing to do.

Just uppity over the needless moralism in the face of several issues facing America and the world where moralism is sorely needed.

I will continue to leave ice and water at the top of Peters Mountain for as long as I visit HBG. I won't give it a second thought. If you are passing thru, enjoy the water and I hope it saves you the trip down to the spring at Peters Mountain Shelter.

Pedaling Fool

07-23-2008, 16:19

...I will continue to leave ice and water at the top of Peters Mountain for as long as I visit HBG. I won't give it a second thought. If you are passing thru, enjoy the water and I hope it saves you the trip down to the spring at Peters Mountain Shelter.
You won't give a second thought to my trail experience, that deeply offends me, but don't worry I'll get over it;):sun

Yahtzee

07-23-2008, 16:24

You won't give a second thought to my trail experience, that deeply offends me, but don't worry I'll get over it;):sun

Bro, if I met you while doing trail magic you wouldn't be able to get away from me. I'd want to hear everything. Like I said, I get more out of it than I give in water and sodas. By a long measure.

Pedaling Fool

07-23-2008, 16:28

Bro, if I met you while doing trail magic you wouldn't be able to get away from me. I'd want to hear everything. Like I said, I get more out of it than I give in water and sodas. By a long measure.
That's cool, but I ain't drinkin' no sodas on the trail:sun

Yahtzee

07-23-2008, 16:33

is to............

Brilliant!

jesse

07-23-2008, 16:34

... intermittent leaving of a cooler on the side of a road shouldn't cause too much trouble...

Not leaving one doesn't cause any problems.

...if a cooler is plundered...

That is is the whole reason why it shouldn't ever be left in the first place

Just uppity over the needless moralism in the face of several issues facing America and the world where moralism is sorely needed.

I have no idea what you are talking about, but uppity is someone who doesn't think the PS guidelines apply to them.

Bearpaw

07-23-2008, 16:40

Yahtzee

07-23-2008, 16:44

Not leaving one doesn't cause any problems.

That is is the whole reason why it shouldn't ever be left in the first place

I have no idea what you are talking about, but uppity is someone who doesn't think the PS guidelines apply to them.

#1 A cooler in the woods is not a problem it is a cooler.
#2 If coolers shouldn't be left out because they might be plundered than shelters and overnight hikers should be banned as well. It is a matter of proportion.
#3 I am more than happy to decide for myself what is responsible or not. The day I cede that decision to any government agency is the day I will cease to be an American.

It's a cooler, for god's sake. Been done for years and years. Nary a soul harmed. This is, again, needless moralism in the face of a non-existent problem.
Guilty as charged. Now if you could, please do something about that person doing 56 mph.

Yahtzee

07-23-2008, 16:46

Folks, this is one where we have to agree to disagree and move on. I don't think any one is going to change any one else's ideas at this point...

That doesn't mean we can't disagree and still be civil. :-?

Point taken, Bearpaw. I leave the last word Mr. Brent.

Have fun with your daughter. I hope the Trail brings her the same joy it has brought me.

Boudin

07-23-2008, 17:01

I have been both the recipient of trail magic and a trail angel. People have fed me steaks, pizza, beer, hot dogs, soda, etc.........Last year on the PCT, a lady was at a road crossing near the Mojave Dam making rootbeer floats. That was the last thing I ever expected to find at a road crossing from a trail angel. Those of you that know me, know I'm not going to pass up a beer; and I really like my bourbon.....but the rootbeer floats were so unexpected and such a different treat, that I think that was my favorite trail magic.

So thank you for wanting to do some trail magic. You know what everbody likes. Maybe use your imagination and come up with something so different that the hikers will always remember it. Make sure the hikers pay you back for your kindness with a good trail story.

The Old Fhart

07-23-2008, 17:10

Yahtzee-"...Thus it is an arbitrary guideline that one can choose not follow if they feel they can do so responsibly...."There is some confusion here. The ATC can have guidelines concerning TM because they are not in law enforcement. However, there are laws and regulations concerning litter and these are not guidelines that you can just choose to ignore. This is what Laurie said about it

Local regulations. Most local regulations prohibit leaving any property unattended. Only the National Park Service, Forest Service, and other land-managing or law-enforcement agencies can enforce these regulations, not ATC. Ridgerunners, who may be employed by ATC, the local club, the local land manager, or some combination thereof, do not have direct law enforcement authority, but work in partnership with local law enforcement. Some land-managing agencies have regulations pertaining to food preparation. There are two NPS law enforcement rangers for the A.T.: one who works out of the ATC Boiling Springs office, and one who works in the Appalachian Trail Park Office in Harpers Ferry. ATC has to respect the laws of our land-managing partners. They provide a whole host of protections for the A.T. corridor. It's because of those laws and regulations that development isn't allowed on the A.T., that ATV and horses can't use the A.T., and that there are restrictions on logging, etc.

Lone Wolf

07-23-2008, 18:25

I will continue to leave ice and water at the top of Peters Mountain for as long as I visit HBG. I won't give it a second thought. If you are passing thru, enjoy the water and I hope it saves you the trip down to the spring at Peters Mountain Shelter.

i guess you never met Bob Barker, a 3 time AT hiker in his 60s who had MS and hiked with wrist-grip crutches. Bob looked forward to going down to the spring. he was tough unlike today's "magical" hikers. i pass up "magic" often. we all should :)

Frolicking Dinosaurs

07-23-2008, 21:01

I agree that TM that causes litter or involves leaving items behind is questionable behavior. However, the AT has its own character independent of other long trails - TM along with the town partying and staying in lots of hostels and shelter is part of the AT experience.

The Old Fhart

07-23-2008, 22:06

Bearpaw-“In the case of Scott Farm, I'm pretty sure it was private property, owned by the local trail-maintaining club.”
Check out this link (http://www.pacounties.org/cumberland/cwp/view.asp?A=1725&Q=493006&tx=1) which says:

Scott Farm Work Center/Appalachian Trail
Scott Farm is a trailhead and work center for the Appalachian National Scenic Trail. This site is located along Bernheisel Bridge Road and owned by the National Park Service. Creek access is permitted on the south side of the bridge. Parking is limited; users must contact the Appalachian Trail Conservancy to determine parking availability. Driving and parking on the grass are strictly prohibited. There are no sanitary facilities and users must pack out all trash. For more information, contact the Appalachian Trail Conservancy at (717) 258-5771, 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Monday through Friday.
Despite erroneous claims that it is not littering if one plans on returning to pick up a cooler, that isn’t how the land owners, the NPS views it. It isn’t an arbitrary guideline that one can choose not follow if they feel they can do so responsibly. What “the PA Code” may say is trumped by Federal laws and regulations. Geocachers found this out in 2006 when a cache (almost within sight of the Scott Farm Work Center, BTW) had to be removed. Despite anyone thinking that a cooler or a geocache isn’t litter (to their way of thinking) is overridden by the NPS considering anything left to be abandon property, i.e., litter. Check out this link from June 2006 (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LUID=ef124a25-bec5-44ca-9ce3-5b63b240d291):

Hi:
I'm the Boundary Program Mgr. for the Appalachian Trail Conservancy, and I work with the National Park Service and 20 different volunteer trail clubs from VA to ME to help them with monitoring and maintaining the boundaries of the National Park Service lands that have been acquired to protect the Appalachian Trail. Your geocache just off the AT is located on National Park Service property. I'm not sure if you're aware, but geocaching on lands managed by the National Park Service is not permitted. I realize that there are many geocaching sites on trail lands, but they are unauthorized and in violation of park service regulations. Besides being located on property where you do not have permission to place a geocache, it's also in a area filled with poison ivy.
As a former geocacher myself, I know it might seem kind of harsh to not be able to have a cache in the woods next to the AT, but per federal law, all recreation activities in national park areas have to be authorized to prevent unforseen impacts to the natural and cultural resources we protect.
Geocaching is a popular and admirable activity, but the park service just hasn't had the time or the manpower to address concerns with impacts. Without going into all the details, there may be very sensitive plant and animal communities on the corridor lands adjacent to the trail. Therefore, I have to ask you to remove your cache at your earliest convenience and not set up any more caches on Appalachian Trail lands as you would be in violation of federal regulations if you did so.
I apologize for any inconvenience and please feel to contact me if you have any questions.
Sincerely,
Sally H Naser
Appalachian Trail Conservancy
4 East First St.
Boiling Springs, PA 17007
Now I love trail magic and have been doing it for over 20 years, but I can't leave anything unattended either. I have also participated in a hiker feed for several years and we have to have a permit, supply a porta-potty, and not put up any signs on the trail advertising it. Doing it by the book eliminates a lot of problems.

Appalachian Tater

07-23-2008, 22:17

The best "Trail Magic" is finding jugs of clean water tied to a tree in a long dry stretch of trail on a hot summer day.

Hoop Time

07-23-2008, 22:20

Again, I appreciate all the feedback. Didn't mean to stir up such a fuss. All I really was looking for were ideas of what kinds of snacks or beverages hikers would prefer because my daughter wants to make some "treats" for them.

We have tried finding hikers in segments of the trail that are either near the road or cross it, but when you figure that even at the busiest of times, maybe 10-15 thru-hikers come through the Cumberland Valley in a day, the idea of waiting someplace for hours for somebody to show up is simply not feasible.

I am not and will never be a thru-hiker. Even if I lost the 30 pounds I would need to lose before even considering a thru-hike, my knees and feet would never take it.

But I am an outdoorsman. I camp and flyfish and do enjoy day hikes and the occasional trail ride on my bicycle (in places where it is appropriate). I practice carry in carry out when I fish and camp. I don't litter or leave stuff behind, not even tiny pieces of microfilament fishing leader (harms the birds) that no humans would ever even notice.

So I guess it comes down to this: We will do whatever we decide to do, knowing full well that you can't please everybody all the time.

I'm not a religious person, but I find the Golden Rule usually works pretty well. I think ultimately that will be what guides us.

rafe

07-23-2008, 22:41

Over the course of my section hikes, I encountered trail magic -- in the form of sodas in streams or coolers -- about four or five times. I must say I was highly appreciative, in each case.

I was a bit less enthralled at finding empty coolers, long abandoned, filled with trash and empties. In fact, there were a couple of these near the road crossing where I finally completed the AT, last summer in southern Virginia. Overall, I encountered that situation maybe five times as well.

The last time this discussion came around on Whiteblaze, I learned that ATC officially discourages this sort of trail magic, and so I can't and won't try to defend it. Though it is well-intentioned, and though I did enjoy it, I've seen that unattended coolers and such can and will turn to trash, and certainly that's not what I want to see in the woods.

I say all this with some sadness and regret, because I do remember how delicious those drinks were when I encountered them. :o

rafe

07-23-2008, 23:03

Call it littering if you want, but I've used a bear cannister as a food cache before on longer hikes, gotten my food en route, when recovered the cannister later when the hike was done. If that's littering then I'm guilty, but I don't see the correlation.

Then there was this (http://www.terrapinphoto.com/cpg143/displayimage.php?album=6&pos=17) arrangement in NJ, just a few miles north of Pochuck shelter. It was located about 100 feet off the main trail, on a side trail that probably led (in short order) to some residences. Anyway, it's a real bear box, with no chance of its contents turning to litter -- unless by hikers themselves. The box itself is going nowhere. This was not your ordinary trail magic box! All kinds of goodies inside.

mudcap

07-24-2008, 18:29

Well said,I never thought doing something kind could be turned into something so negative. Learning all the time I guess.

Folks, this is one where we have to agree to disagree and move on. I don't think any one is going to change any one else's ideas at this point...

That doesn't mean we can't disagree and still be civil. :-?

Hoop Time

07-24-2008, 22:59

Unbelievable what this simple query turned into. this morning at work I got an e-mail from somebody from the NPS ... they actually found my work e-mail (which is not too hard since it is on the end of any stories I write for the paper, but still . . . ).

Anyhow, in addition to cutting and pasting a bunch of the info I had alrerady read thanks to links here, they passed along the e-mail and phone number for Michelle, one of the Scott Farm caretakers saying to talk to here about possible ways to handle this.

I thought, great, I will let them know we plan to drop a cooler Friday morning and pick it up DFriday evening before sundown. No litter concerns. No critters after dark concerns. Even liked the idea that my daughter could check the register there in the morning and again in the evening to get an idea how many hikers came through.

It seemed simple and easy. It was not.

Michelle informed me that the cooler we had left previously had been "discovered" by a guy from the ATC and he was not happy about it (now granted we should have gone back for it sooner, and ignorance is no excuse). She had been told that under no circumstances could we drop anything there for the hikers because it violates NPS regs. Pure bureaucratic BS.

Since we were going to pick it up in the evening, that seemed like pack in pack out to me. Especially since I was being upfront and telling them who I was. Obviously I am easy enough to find if I failed to fulfill that responsibility. This was a simple, common sense approach.

Once again we learn the hard way that it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

My daughter and I discussed placing the cooler elsewhere, but I can't think of anywhere suitable. The Scott Farm was ideal because it is off the road and a popular stop for water and a break already. I don't feel comfortable with leaving something at a road crossing in this area. Although there are crossings that are not exactly suburban, they are still mostly on pretty heavily traveled roads. Besides, since NPS owns the trail, elsewhere would still violate their policy and they have already said no.

Thought about taking some home baked goodies up to Duncannon to let TA Mary pass them out. But really it would not be the same getting food where it is so readily available.

We're not going to give up, but we will have to rethink. By the time the SOBOs start coming through in the fall, we will have come up with something. I have really enjoyed my encounters with the trail community. I dig the culture. It is a lot like the flyfishing community, minus the yuppies in their SUVs. I look forward to writing more trail related stories in the future.

I also think it is the kind of community I want my daughter to be exposed to. As an aspiring athlete, the example set by folks willing to work so hard to reach a goal is great for her. She also really likes camping and the outdoors, and with the AT so convenient to us, it only makes sense we should take advantage of it.

Thanks to all that responded to my initial post. The only other time I can remember an initial post in a forum making such a spalsh was when I was covering a mass arrest of folks attending a rave in Harrisburg and posted on a rave community board looking for people willing to talk about what had gone down (it is now the subject of a federal class action suit for civil rights violations, but that is another story).

Thanks again for the insight and feedback.

ed bell

07-25-2008, 00:25

I am a reporter for the Harrisburg Patriot-News in Pa. who did some stories on the trail this summer. My 12-year-old daughter has become fascinated by the stories I have told her about the hikers I met and the trail lore I learned about. In addition to insisting that next summer her and I are doing a short section hike (probably just an overnighter or two), she is very into the idea of doing some trail magic.

About two weeks ago we loaded a styrofoam cooler and deposited it on the picnic table by the Scott farm (about 4 miles S. of Darlington shelter). She wants to do this more often, and I am happy to support her efforts.

Here is my question: What items would hikers like? Last time we dropped off cookies, fruit, candy bars and sodas. She is planning to bake some whole wheat oatmeal raisin cookies this week. Any other suggestions?

Unbelievable what this simple query turned into. this morning at work I got an e-mail from somebody from the NPS ... they actually found my work e-mail (which is not too hard since it is on the end of any stories I write for the paper, but still . . . ).

Anyhow, in addition to cutting and pasting a bunch of the info I had alrerady read thanks to links here, they passed along the e-mail and phone number for Michelle, one of the Scott Farm caretakers saying to talk to here about possible ways to handle this.

I thought, great, I will let them know we plan to drop a cooler Friday morning and pick it up DFriday evening before sundown. No litter concerns. No critters after dark concerns. Even liked the idea that my daughter could check the register there in the morning and again in the evening to get an idea how many hikers came through.

It seemed simple and easy. It was not.

Michelle informed me that the cooler we had left previously had been "discovered" by a guy from the ATC and he was not happy about it (now granted we should have gone back for it sooner, and ignorance is no excuse). She had been told that under no circumstances could we drop anything there for the hikers because it violates NPS regs. Pure bureaucratic BS.

Since we were going to pick it up in the evening, that seemed like pack in pack out to me. Especially since I was being upfront and telling them who I was. Obviously I am easy enough to find if I failed to fulfill that responsibility. This was a simple, common sense approach.

Once again we learn the hard way that it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

My daughter and I discussed placing the cooler elsewhere, but I can't think of anywhere suitable. The Scott Farm was ideal because it is off the road and a popular stop for water and a break already. I don't feel comfortable with leaving something at a road crossing in this area. Although there are crossings that are not exactly suburban, they are still mostly on pretty heavily traveled roads. Besides, since NPS owns the trail, elsewhere would still violate their policy and they have already said no.

Thought about taking some home baked goodies up to Duncannon to let TA Mary pass them out. But really it would not be the same getting food where it is so readily available.

We're not going to give up, but we will have to rethink. By the time the SOBOs start coming through in the fall, we will have come up with something. I have really enjoyed my encounters with the trail community. I dig the culture. It is a lot like the flyfishing community, minus the yuppies in their SUVs. I look forward to writing more trail related stories in the future.

I also think it is the kind of community I want my daughter to be exposed to. As an aspiring athlete, the example set by folks willing to work so hard to reach a goal is great for her. She also really likes camping and the outdoors, and with the AT so convenient to us, it only makes sense we should take advantage of it.

Thanks to all that responded to my initial post. The only other time I can remember an initial post in a forum making such a spalsh was when I was covering a mass arrest of folks attending a rave in Harrisburg and posted on a rave community board looking for people willing to talk about what had gone down (it is now the subject of a federal class action suit for civil rights violations, but that is another story).

Thanks again for the insight and feedback.Hoop Time,
Wanting to meet thru-hikers and long distance folks to provide snacks, drinks and such is very cool. Nobody said is wasn't. Some mentioned that leaving coolers or items unattended was probably a bad idea or actually against some regulations. Take the suggestions as you will. The input you read here is on an open forum with quite a few members. There is some good advice here.

Yahtzee

07-25-2008, 01:46

I wouldn't go flying anywhere in the near future. Your name is probably on a list now.

Don't let this deter you. Enjoy the AT with your daughter. If you get a citation for leaving a cooler, so be it. Pay it and keep on doing it. That could be another lesson for your daughter. Just because those in authority say it so, doesn't make it so. A healthy disrespect of "the man" is an essential trait of every good American. IMO.

We need more AT people in the 'burg. I didn't hear about it til I got out of the Army.

P.S. If you get a chance, take the old Dauphin exit, bang two quick rights, the last on a dead end road. Drive to the end of the street and park by the train tracks. Walk about 100 yards up the tracks. Bushwack straight up the rocks. In about 20 minutes off to the right, fairly obvious, is an overlook that is the best in the area. Overlooks the Narrows and the Statue of Liberty straight into Perry County. Great view.

ed bell

07-25-2008, 02:05

He ain't getting a citation, and is free to enjoy the AT the same amount as anyone. They would rather nothing be left unattended at that location. The folks there have conveyed that to Hoop Time and he forwarded that info to this thread.

trailangelmary

07-25-2008, 02:25

Hi Hoop time! FYI, NOBOs should be done in this area. There will be a break of about 2 weeks then the SOBOs will start. I heard from Shua, NOBO about 4 days ago and he said he met his first SOBOer. He was in the area of Delaware Water Gap.
If you want to work together to do some kindnesses for SOBOs, give me a call.

ki0eh

07-25-2008, 08:43

Hey, Hoop Time, maybe it would be interesting to write about the creative tension among the administrators, volunteer clubs, Trail angels, day, section, and thru hikers who commonly love our Trail. Trail magic seems to be a nexus for all to talk past each other. Maybe you could write quite an investigative series and get paid to hike while doing it. :)

The Old Fhart

07-25-2008, 08:56

Yahtzee-"...Don't let this deter you. Enjoy the AT with your daughter. If you get a citation for leaving a cooler, so be it. Pay it and keep on doing it. That could be another lesson for your daughter. Just because those in authority say it so, doesn't make it so. A healthy disrespect of "the man" is an essential trait of every good American. IMO...."Advocating that people violate the law is extremely bad advise and violates the TOS at WB. For someone like you who claimed in an unwarranted PM to me that they "will be a licensed attorney in a few months" to suggest this, is scary. Whether you like it or not, these laws, rules, and regulations are in place to protect our public lands and if everyone took your attitude that they can disobey whatever rules they disagree with would only lead to chaos.

Lone Wolf

07-25-2008, 08:58

Hoop Time

07-25-2008, 09:27

this thread should be titled "Trail Feeding Question". leaving coolers and waiting on hikers to feed them has nothing to do with "trail magic". real trail magic is very spontaneous and neither the giver or receiver expects it or plans it

Can you smell the cynicism in the air? I will agree with the hiker expecting it part. But I don't buy that magic planned is not magic practiced. A little girl wanting to bake some cookies for hikers passing through the area does not lack magic because she had to plan it in advance.

Please keep in mind, I started this thread about my 12-year-old daughter wanting to do something. She is not capable of spontaneously doing something. She lives several miles from the trail. She will not encounter hikers randomly.

She just thought it was pretty cool that somebody would try to walk from Ga. to Me. and wanted to do a little something for them.

Advocating that people violate the law is extremely bad advise and violates the TOS at WB. For someone like you who claimed in an unwarranted PM to me that they "will be a licensed attorney in a few months" to suggest this, is scary. Whether you like it or not, these laws, rules, and regulations are in place to protect our public lands and if everyone took your attitude that they can disobey whatever rules they disagree with would only lead to chaos.

In the immortal words of Bill Murray "Lighten up Francis"

It's not like he was advocating we rob a bank. Or for that matter that we do anything irresponsible or threatening to the public lands.

Pretty sure it has been well established that we all want to protect public lands, and private for that matter. After all, the environment could give a rat's butt about boundaries and property lines.

Yahtzee -- I agree with your views on "healthy disrespect." It's what this country was founded on. But there is a difference between that and stupidity, and I hope to convey that to my kids. We can be civilly disobedient (for lack of a better term) without making it easy for them to haul me in for waterboarding.

The standard I try to teach them to apply is pretty simple: Is this the hill you want to die on? Is it worth getting a citation (unlikely, but hypothetically perhaps possible) to do this? Or would that potential fine money be better spent on doing some magic another way?

Of course some of my instinct is that it would be best spent on copying fees for some sort of flyer getting the word out about the NPS' stupidity in this instance. I have a tough time even fathoming a government employee on my tax dollar taking time to look up my e-mail and get involved in something this silly. It is one thing to ban irresponsible behavior like leaving a cooler someplace to turn into a critter and trash problem, and another to do so in a responsible manner with full accountability.

I am tempted to talk about it with one of our columnists. It is the sort of fodder she seems to thrive on. But as a reporter, I am loathe to becaome the story and I try real hard not to ever be perceived as using the paper to my own ends (aside from the paycheck, of course).

Until the NPS e-mail, we had decided to simpky head out to the Scott Farm, knock on the door to let them know we'd be back in the evening to pick up the cooler, follow through on that promise -- no harm, no foul.

I wanted to teach my daughter a lesson about the joy of giving for the sake of giving. This was not about meeting hikers. I can take her to Pine Grove Furnace and sit on the porch of the store in the afternoon to do that (or could have the last several weeks anyhow). I wanted her to appreciate the whole idea of paying forward.

instead she gets a civics lesson.

She will also get a lesson in persistence. We will figure out an alternative approach. Have already heard from Trail Angel Mary and plan to pow wow with her, also got a few messages with some really cool ideas from others.

And although we don't have an AT beat per se at the paper, I am part of a team that covers environmental stuff, so I think I will use that as license to adopt covering the trail. It runs right through a large part of our coverage area and is full of good stories. Might even do one next week on the dismantling of the Earl shelter if I can fit it in my schedule.

After all, what is better than a story that requires you to get out of the office for a walk in the woods to report it?

So again, thanks for all the feedback and ideas. Sorry to have caused such a dustup. All I wanted to know when I started this was if hikers might prefer Oatmeal Raisin or Chocolate Chip.

Hoop Time

07-25-2008, 09:30

OOPs ... that was actually Warren Oates as Sgt. Hulka, not Bill Murray .. my bad

Lone Wolf

07-25-2008, 09:36

Can you smell the cynicism in the air? I will agree with the hiker expecting it part. But I don't buy that magic planned is not magic practiced. A little girl wanting to bake some cookies for hikers passing through the area does not lack magic because she had to plan it in advance.

Please keep in mind, I started this thread about my 12-year-old daughter wanting to do something. She is not capable of spontaneously doing something. She lives several miles from the trail. She will not encounter hikers randomly.

She just thought it was pretty cool that somebody would try to walk from Ga. to Me. and wanted to do a little something for them.

In the immortal words of Bill Murray "Lighten up Francis"

It's not like he was advocating we rob a bank. Or for that matter that we do anything irresponsible or threatening to the public lands.

Pretty sure it has been well established that we all want to protect public lands, and private for that matter. After all, the environment could give a rat's butt about boundaries and property lines.

Yahtzee -- I agree with your views on "healthy disrespect." It's what this country was founded on. But there is a difference between that and stupidity, and I hope to convey that to my kids. We can be civilly disobedient (for lack of a better term) without making it easy for them to haul me in for waterboarding.

The standard I try to teach them to apply is pretty simple: Is this the hill you want to die on? Is it worth getting a citation (unlikely, but hypothetically perhaps possible) to do this? Or would that potential fine money be better spent on doing some magic another way?

Of course some of my instinct is that it would be best spent on copying fees for some sort of flyer getting the word out about the NPS' stupidity in this instance. I have a tough time even fathoming a government employee on my tax dollar taking time to look up my e-mail and get involved in something this silly. It is one thing to ban irresponsible behavior like leaving a cooler someplace to turn into a critter and trash problem, and another to do so in a responsible manner with full accountability.

I am tempted to talk about it with one of our columnists. It is the sort of fodder she seems to thrive on. But as a reporter, I am loathe to becaome the story and I try real hard not to ever be perceived as using the paper to my own ends (aside from the paycheck, of course).

Until the NPS e-mail, we had decided to simpky head out to the Scott Farm, knock on the door to let them know we'd be back in the evening to pick up the cooler, follow through on that promise -- no harm, no foul.

I wanted to teach my daughter a lesson about the joy of giving for the sake of giving. This was not about meeting hikers. I can take her to Pine Grove Furnace and sit on the porch of the store in the afternoon to do that (or could have the last several weeks anyhow). I wanted her to appreciate the whole idea of paying forward.

instead she gets a civics lesson.

She will also get a lesson in persistence. We will figure out an alternative approach. Have already heard from Trail Angel Mary and plan to pow wow with her, also got a few messages with some really cool ideas from others.

And although we don't have an AT beat per se at the paper, I am part of a team that covers environmental stuff, so I think I will use that as license to adopt covering the trail. It runs right through a large part of our coverage area and is full of good stories. Might even do one next week on the dismantling of the Earl shelter if I can fit it in my schedule.

After all, what is better than a story that requires you to get out of the office for a walk in the woods to report it?

So again, thanks for all the feedback and ideas. Sorry to have caused such a dustup. All I wanted to know when I started this was if hikers might prefer Oatmeal Raisin or Chocolate Chip.

end the thread and do your thing

jesse

07-25-2008, 09:49

... Michelle informed me that the cooler we had left previously had been "discovered" by a guy from the ATC and he was not happy about it ...She had been told that under no circumstances could we drop anything there for the hikers because it violates NPS regs.

The ATC guy got it right

Flush2wice

07-25-2008, 09:57

All I wanted to know when I started this was if hikers might prefer Oatmeal Raisin or Chocolate Chip.

That's a no-brainer. Oatmeal raisin.

jesse

07-25-2008, 09:59

Over the course of my section hikes, I encountered trail magic -- in the form of sodas in streams ...

This is the worst form of trail magic there is. Why someone would do such a thing is beyond reasoning.

wilconow

07-25-2008, 10:00

One of the best threads on WB in quite a while.

Lone Wolf

07-25-2008, 10:03

Why someone would do such a thing is beyond reasoning.

some dude does that in vermont and has a register in a wooden box that he bolted to a tree, for signing and thanking him for the sodas. i'm sure the GMC/ATC didn't approve the box and wouldn't approve of sodas in a stream

Nomad94

07-25-2008, 10:04

Chocolate chip.

mister krabs

07-25-2008, 10:36

White chocolate macadamia!! :banana

Bearpaw

07-25-2008, 10:46

If NPS says don't do it, then don't do it.

Simple enough.

You should definitely write a story on this one.

Mags

07-25-2008, 10:58

Until the NPS e-mail, we had decided to simpky head out to the Scott Farm, knock on the door to let them know we'd be back in the evening to pick up the cooler, follow through on that promise -- no harm, no foul.

Why not a compromise? Go on a Saturday. Stay for a couple of hours with the coolers, hand out the beverages/cookies.

You and your daughter get to perform a good deed; the people who make the red tape are happy.

Not as convenient as dropping off and picking up the coolers later.. But, you and your daughter may get to to talk to some hikers directly.

All I wanted to know when I started this was if hikers might prefer Oatmeal Raisin or Chocolate Chip.

They are thru-hikers...they will take any one! :)

rafe

07-25-2008, 10:59

This is the worst form of trail magic there is. Why someone would do such a thing is beyond reasoning.

All I can say is that my reaction was one of appreciation and delight, and that I'm sure it was done with the best of intentions. I also suspect strongly that the perpetrator was the local shelter caretaker. The year was 2002, so this was probably some time before the latest ATC edicts on "trail magic."

Pedaling Fool

07-25-2008, 11:03

Hikers love oatmeal, especially plain oatmeal. That would be real magic, totally unexpected. They usually only see hotdogs/hamburgers.

jesse

07-25-2008, 11:11

It just seems intuitive to me. Don't leave anything, coolers, drinks, bibles, magazines, books, etc.; anywhere, streams, shelters, road crossings; for any length of time, a day a week, a few hours...
I don't not do it, because its against the rules, I don't do it because to do so is just plain wrong.

rafe

07-25-2008, 11:12

Hikers love oatmeal, especially plain oatmeal....

I'm not so fond of the stuff, myself. IMO, it's not that hikers "love" oatmeal but it happens to be a breakfast food that's amenable to a camping and long-distance hiking regimen.

jesse

07-25-2008, 11:20

I'm not so fond of the stuff, myself. IMO, it's not that hikers "love" oatmeal but it happens to be a breakfast food that's amenable to a camping and long-distance hiking regimen.

It reminds me of a cartoon i once saw where this GI in WWII was in a foxhole opening a care package. His folks sent him spam.

Skyline

07-25-2008, 11:22

Leaving "trail magic" in the woods, at road crossings, etc. may be appreciated by most hikers, but it is apparently not legal in some places. There are other repurcussions as well.

The one exception might be water caches during severe drought like we had last year in late summer and fall. Then, the life-saving qualities of H20 trump whatever other objections may crop up, IMHO. The more discreet the location, the better.

The best way to distribute food, drink, and other goodies to hikers is IN PERSON. Pick a day during "prime time" and a good location in the middle of a stretch of trail where other food and water options are scarce or non-existent. That's where it will be most appreciated.

Set up a table or work from a tailgate. Make a day of it. Bring friends and family. Stay as long as you can, or until your "magic" runs out. Have trash bags there so hikers can unburden themselves of their trash, and for placing trash your "magic" generates. Take everything home with you.

You will get a lot more out of it if you do it in person. So will the hikers. There are no littering issues. And only the most anal-retentive hiker will object. I'm betting you won't even meet such a hiker all day.

jesse

07-25-2008, 11:27

Well said Skyline. I will add:
If one feels compelled to do it, road crossings, are better than at shelters, and other established camp sites. Less negative impact.

Lone Wolf

07-25-2008, 11:32

The one exception might be water caches during severe drought like we had last year in late summer and fall. Then, the life-saving qualities of H20 trump whatever other objections may crop up, IMHO. The more discreet the location, the better.

i disagree. hikers make a CHOICE to be out there. they don't NEED to be. there are plenty of roads to hitch to towns and get fluids. nobody will die on the AT from lack of fluids

Pedaling Fool

07-25-2008, 11:53

I'm not so fond of the stuff, myself. IMO, it's not that hikers "love" oatmeal but it happens to be a breakfast food that's amenable to a camping and long-distance hiking regimen.
You're an entertaining fellow.

minnesotasmith

07-25-2008, 12:04

i disagree. hikers make a CHOICE to be out there. they don't NEED to be. there are plenty of roads to hitch to towns and get fluids. nobody will die on the AT from lack of fluids

I found that on the 100+ degree days in July of that year, even with trail angel water caches and massive cameling-up each morning, that I had to start out carrying as much as five liters of water each day to keep from running out of water miles from reliable water resupply points.

As jugs of water are about the last thing for attracting animals, and can genuinely save lives on occasion (much more so than food), I don't see the logic in being against maintained caches of them.

minnesotasmith

07-25-2008, 12:04

i disagree. hikers make a CHOICE to be out there. they don't NEED to be. there are plenty of roads to hitch to towns and get fluids. nobody will die on the AT from lack of fluids

I found that on the 100+ degree days in July of that year, even with trail angel water caches and massive cameling-up each morning, that I had to start out carrying as much as five liters of water each day to keep from running out miles from water resupply points.

As jugs of water are about the last thing to attract animals, and can genuinely save lives on occasion, I don't see the logic in being against caches of them.

mister krabs

07-25-2008, 12:05

i disagree. hikers make a CHOICE to be out there. they don't NEED to be. there are plenty of roads to hitch to towns and get fluids. nobody will die on the AT from lack of fluids

Well, if anyone was going to die, then it would be SAR, not trail magic, so that seems a bit beside the point. Maybe "lifesaving" is not the correct term, but health and well being certainly are important, and contributing to others' is an admirable thing.

-just the thoughts of a pack sniffer. :D

Pedaling Fool

07-25-2008, 12:09

I found that on the 100+ degree days in July of that year, even with trail angel water caches and massive cameling-up each morning, that I had to start out carrying as much as five liters of water each day to keep from running out miles from water resupply points.

As jugs of water are about the last thing to attract animals, and can genuinely save lives on occasion, I don't see the logic in being against caches of them.
I was there too, and I saw the water bottles. Never once did I take from those water caches. I only used the natural water sources.

trailangelmary

07-25-2008, 12:14

So again, thanks for all the feedback and ideas. Sorry to have caused such a dustup
You are not the first nor will you be the last, I'm sure to cause a "dustup". The threads here on whiteblaze concerning trail magic are common:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=36711&highlight=trail+magic

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=33369&highlight=trail+magic (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=33369&highlight=trail+magic)
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18063&highlight=trail+magic
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=35181&highlight=trail+magic
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=35072&highlight=trail+magic
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46&highlight=trail+magic
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32298&highlight=trail+magic
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27511&highlight=trail+magic
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22351&highlight=trail+magic
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16590&highlight=trailangelmary

Lone Wolf

07-25-2008, 12:17

You are not the first nor will you be the last, I'm sure to cause a "dustup". The threads here on whiteblaze concerning trail magic are common:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=36711&highlight=trail+magic

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=33369&highlight=trail+magic (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=33369&highlight=trail+magic)
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18063&highlight=trail+magic
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=35181&highlight=trail+magic
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=35072&highlight=trail+magic
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46&highlight=trail+magic
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32298&highlight=trail+magic
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27511&highlight=trail+magic
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22351&highlight=trail+magic
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16590&highlight=trailangelmary

yeah, so hoop time, ask the mods. to close the thread. it's run it's course.

minnesotasmith

07-25-2008, 12:55

I was there too, and I saw the water bottles. Never once did I take from those water caches. I only used the natural water sources.

Not everybody does as many miles in a day as you do. ;)

Kirby

07-25-2008, 13:06

I know I was always excited when I came across fruit of any kind, Cookie and I loved it all.

Beer is a silly thing to leave, especially when a 12 year old is involved in the trail magic. What you are essentially saying is 'if you are under 21, we don't care that your trying to walk from GA to ME', that's the feeling I got every time I saw beer.

Water is good in dry areas, soda is good all around, avoid alcohol.

Kirby

Skyline

07-25-2008, 14:29

i disagree. hikers make a CHOICE to be out there. they don't NEED to be. there are plenty of roads to hitch to towns and get fluids. nobody will die on the AT from lack of fluids

You're right about the choice part.

But in the Real World, there is a certain type of hiker who doesn't have the word "quit" in his or her vocabulary. Those hikers need, and appreciate, water caches during severe drought. Other leave-behind "trail magic" I consider a luxury. Water I consider a necessity.

Section hikers can cache the water themselves very discreetly by driving the route they are hiking a day or so prior to starting (I did this once myself on the Laurel Highlands Trail in PA because the pump water at shelters was so putrid). Or, get their shuttle driver to do assist.

Last fall, it was so bad in SNP that we wouldn't shuttle most folks with an intention of hiking the southern half of the southern district unless they cached water (a pretty dry stretch under the best of circumstances, totally dry last fall). One exception was a hiker who carried eight liters from Rockfish Gap going north. We drove the others to a couple key places and made sure they did the placements, and that they were out of sight. They each promised to take the plastic jugs with them as they obtained their water (cut them up, put them in their trash bags or packs until they got to a Park trash can). This winter, we checked—and there were no residual water containers to be found in these locations.

rafe

07-25-2008, 14:35

Last fall, it was so bad in SNP that we wouldn't shuttle anyone with an intention of hiking the southern half of the southern district unless they cached water (a pretty dry stretch under the best of circumstances, totally dry last fall). We drove them to a couple key places and made sure they did the placements, and that they were out of sight. They each promised to take the plastic jugs with them as they obtained their water (cut them up, put them in their trash bags or packs until they got to a Park trash can). This winter, we checked—and there were no residual water containers to be found in these locations.

Last August, it was so bad in PA that somewhere around the third day of my section, I seriously considered getting off the trail. You simply can't hike safely without water, and you can't make miles if all you're doing is looking for water. Somehow, though, I managed.

Blissful

07-25-2008, 14:35

some dude does that in vermont and has a register in a wooden box that he bolted to a tree, for signing and thanking him for the sodas. i'm sure the GMC/ATC didn't approve the box and wouldn't approve of sodas in a stream

It was there last year. But there are boxes nailed to trees and posts everywhere for people to sign in. Like every few miles it seemed in some places. Got crazy after a while and I stopped signing.

Hoop Time

07-25-2008, 14:36

yeah, so hoop time, ask the mods. to close the thread. it's run it's course.

I have never been much for closed threads. As a journalist I can't endorse anything that stifles free speech. It will have run its course when folks stop posting to it. Let it die a natural death.

Of course you are free to not click on the thread any longer if that is your choice.

I already know what we are going to do, or at least that we are not going to leave a cooler at the Scott Farm and that we are going to do something kind for those hikers who do not deem themselves above accepting such offerings.

But I must say, the diversity of opinions here has given this newbie some real insight into the trail community. It is not a monolithic bunch of like-minded hippies and tree huggers (I use both terms with great affection and would be flattered to be called either) that it might appear to be to those who just see unshaved scruffy folks with backpacks hiking through the woods. It's actually a mini-America, filled with conservatives and liberals who really seem to struggle with the whole idea of finding common ground in the middle.

Lone Wolf

07-25-2008, 14:38

. But there are boxes nailed to trees and posts everywhere for people to sign in. Like every few miles it seemed in some places. Got crazy after a while and I stopped signing.

those are GMC register boxes not some register box put out by some guy wantin' a pat on the back

A-Train

07-25-2008, 14:49

I know the NYNJTC has brought out the water buffalo in times of severe drought. It used to be below Pochuck Mountain for a few years.

After hiking the PCT and carrying 8 liters of water, I don;t see it ever being necessary to bring out water to the AT. Is it helpful? Hell yes. Is it necessary? No way. As LW says, one can always hitch to civilization. A little planning goes a long way.

Pedaling Fool

07-25-2008, 15:43

...But I must say, the diversity of opinions here has given this newbie some real insight into the trail community. It is not a monolithic bunch of like-minded hippies and tree huggers (I use both terms with great affection and would be flattered to be called either) that it might appear to be to those who just see unshaved scruffy folks with backpacks hiking through the woods. It's actually a mini-America, filled with conservatives and liberals who really seem to struggle with the whole idea of finding common ground in the middle.
I was similarly surprised when I entered the hiking community.

Bare Bear

07-25-2008, 16:37

I really enjoyed meeting the past thru hikers that are usually the ones giving out TM. I feel like it is my lucky day when I find a cooler with ice cold drinks of any knd but yeah, beer is best especially late in the day. That said, I rarely give out alcohol of any kind when I do TM myself. Our 06 Thru HIkers group that do TM were soudly discouraged by the Park Service, due to locals critizing hikers generally. But we managed to have two good years with a toilet even! Whether you call it TM or a Hiker Feed it can be accepted or ignored. Choice is a wonderful thing.

mrc237

07-25-2008, 17:04

I did a section hike LW from Unionville to Bear Mtn. it was extremely dry, Fitzgerald Falls was dry if it wasn't for Trail Angel Water at road crossings I probably would have taken much longer to hike the section.

Lone Wolf

07-25-2008, 18:40

max patch

07-25-2008, 18:53

After hiking the PCT and carrying 8 liters of water, I don;t see it ever being necessary to bring out water to the AT. Is it helpful? Hell yes. Is it necessary? No way. As LW says, one can always hitch to civilization. A little planning goes a long way.

I agree with this sentiment 100%.

Flush2wice

07-25-2008, 19:57

Someone was leaving about 10 gallons of water at Iron MT. Gap all last summer. Milk jugs hanging on the gate. It was well intentioned, but there's a spring that never stops about 200-300 yards down the road on the TN side.

Kirby

07-25-2008, 20:52

Lone Wolf

07-25-2008, 21:12

smart young man, this kirby

ed bell

07-25-2008, 22:01

I have never been much for closed threads. As a journalist I can't endorse anything that stifles free speech. It will have run its course when folks stop posting to it. Let it die a natural death.

Of course you are free to not click on the thread any longer if that is your choice.

I already know what we are going to do, or at least that we are not going to leave a cooler at the Scott Farm and that we are going to do something kind for those hikers who do not deem themselves above accepting such offerings.

But I must say, the diversity of opinions here has given this newbie some real insight into the trail community. It is not a monolithic bunch of like-minded hippies and tree huggers (I use both terms with great affection and would be flattered to be called either) that it might appear to be to those who just see unshaved scruffy folks with backpacks hiking through the woods. It's actually a mini-America, filled with conservatives and liberals who really seem to struggle with the whole idea of finding common ground in the middle.Just a reminder, anyone searching this site about this topic would know that the topic had the potential of getting some opinionated responses, (as trailangelmary has linked to) especially considering the scenario you have provided. Also, keep in mind that around 30 folks have responded here and the site has over 15,000 possible members who could post. The "trail community" is probably an ideal that could never be measured or evaluated. What has been posted here are some opinions on a message board. Having said that, there is all kinds of great info here, and there is also great info on this thread. I say leave the thread open as well. No harm in reading people's takes on the subject. It is also important to remember that two days of folks riffing on a subject doesn't provide the full picture of this website or any issue. Thanks for continuing to post and add to the topic. Stick around, there is a lot of great info here.

ed

rafe

07-25-2008, 22:08

The "trail community" is probably an ideal that could never be measured or evaluated. What has been posted here are some opinions on a message board.

That's worth reiterating from time to time. Thank you.

Hoop Time

07-25-2008, 22:44

I am under no illusion that this thread is statistically representative of the "trail community." But the diversity of views here would seem to indicate that you can't sterotype trail hikers, which really should be no surprise.

Certainly seems everyone is sincerely interested in making sure the trail retains its character and continues to provide the incredible experiences I have heard hikers talk about and read about in journals.

By the way, I have started another thread looking for help on a story on the Earl Schaeffer shelter that will be dismantled next week. It is in the general category. Won't stray to far off this thread's topic to get into details, but please check that thread for more on how you can help me write a fitting "tribute" to that shelter.
getting back on topic, the little one and I might do a short hike out -- it's about three miles from the nearest parking -- to see it if we can get some pressing matters out of the day early enough. She is baking some cookies to carry in her day pack in case we encounter hikers.

Pedaling Fool

07-25-2008, 22:53

...She is baking some cookies to carry in her day pack in case we encounter hikers.
That's cool and would be a treat, even for me.
I just don't like all the BIG organized stuff happening nowadays, but I don't want to discuss it anymore.

Flush2wice

07-25-2008, 22:56

Oatmeal raisin, right?

ed bell

07-25-2008, 22:59

ed bell

07-25-2008, 23:01

Oatmeal raisin, right?I love oatmeal raisin. Got to have it.:)

trailangelmary

07-26-2008, 02:13

I vote for oatmeal raisin too!!

JAK

07-26-2008, 12:35

The only trail magic I have seen on the fundy foothpath, besides the natural wonders and trail maintenance which shouldn't be forgotten, were two items. The first was a heavy mug hanging my its handle where one crossed a small stream. I just had to stop and take a drink, bugs be damned. The other was a balloon with some sort of clown face which washed had up Cradle Brook Beach when I was there on a solo hike in early January, and it was my only company for a few days as I got myself a wee bit lost and snowed in. There is also a huge rhubarb at Goose Creek, perhaps a remnant from the days when a sawmill that was there. Not sure.

I think stuff normally too heavy to carry, or too perishable, would be best, though homemade is always good also. Doesn't have to be super high in calories because when you think about it folks would just be left with their own leftovers to carry out. Apples. Oranges. Lemons for people to make real lemonaid. Oranges and Lemons keep a long time. Lemons are not a bad idea to pack actually.

Regarding alcoholic beverages I have a real fondness for 'near beer', the <0.5% stuff, in non-alcoholic settings when I want the refreshment without it effecting my performance too much. Great thing to drink at work. Maybe that would just piss people off. I don't know. It's not a bad way to teach your kids to drink responsibly either. Get them started on near-beer, into the habit that one or two is more than enough, that it ain't no big deal. Dispell the whole notion of forbidden fruit. A small amount of wine with a meal isn't a bad idea either. Young teenagers tend to resist when offered such things by their parents. Next thing you know their off in the woods drinking their faces off. Better maybe to teach them responsibility that try to teach them totally abstenance. Anyway, just a thought. Off topic.

JAK

07-26-2008, 12:36

How do you drop this stuff off without it attracting animals, or leaving garbage?

emerald

07-26-2008, 13:50

TM along with the town partying and staying in lots of hostels and shelter[s] is part of the AT experience.

It's not an essential part, nor has it always been a part. I reject the notion that hikers should need to travel 1000s of miles to experience what the A.T. was created to provide close to where the majority of those who use it live.

The A.T. is a world-class, managed recreational resource that passes through many areas where multiple management objectives must be met. Standards of bahavior as well as standards of maintenance apply. While it should offer a wide range of opportunities to those who travel it, it cannot be all things to all people.

mudcap

07-26-2008, 18:26

I vote for oatmeal raisin too!!

Another vote here,maybe just a hint of cinnamon.:) Oh,I like them really chewy.

Hoop Time

07-26-2008, 23:30

Ok, an update. It was Oatmeal Raisin ... made with whole wheat flour. Even the burnt ones were pretty good (was my fault). Anyhow, she packed about 20 in a big baggie, stuck them in a day pack and her and I, along with the mrs. and my 14-year-old went after pictures of the Schaffer Shelter (mission accomplished but would still like your stories about the shelter).

She gave about a dozen of the cookies to Berf, a 68-year-old hiker from Florida who we met first at the parking lot of 225, and again at the overlook on the way to the shelter.

We had not seen any other hikers all day, so she unloaded most of what was in the bag on Berf, who said "Thanks Cookie Monster," prompting the 12-year-old to claim that is her trail name "because a hiker gave it to her and that is much cooler than picking your own."

That was why she was out of cookies when we met a bunch of NOBO stragglers on the way back to the parking lot. But it was OK, because Berf is the skinniest hiker I have ever seen. He is carrying a 40-pound pack because he promised his wife to carry more protein because he has lost so much weight.

We had no such issues. We yellow blazed to The Doyle for burgers before heading home, tired but felling real good.

I think we have found our answer to the whole magic question. We all had a great hike and really enjoyed it. I think we'll try to do this more often, but with a bigger stash in Cookie Monster's daypack.

mudcap

07-26-2008, 23:47

Very Cool! That is a great story,especially for the new *cookie Monster*. I bet that trip will never be forgotten. You are doing a great thing. With all the negative out there today it is easy for people to jump on that band wagon. Not sure why anyone would,but they do. Keep it up,stay positive.

emerald

07-27-2008, 00:03

trailangelmary

07-27-2008, 00:48

she unloaded most of what was in the bag on Berf, who said "Thanks Cookie Monster," prompting the 12-year-old to claim that is her trail name "because a hiker gave it to her and that is much cooler than picking your own."

Glad you enjoyed your hike and doing your trail magic. Look forward to meeting you Cookie Monster.
I missed you at Doyle...woke up from a nap too late! Maybe next time.

Yahtzee

07-27-2008, 02:09

There's a wide range of activities that fall within the guidelines. All it takes is a small effort to come up with more creative and interesting alternatives which don't involve others who through no decision of their own are sometimes impacted.

O.K., den mother. We get the point. The man just shared a wonderful story and you gotta spout and make sure we all know what an upstanding law-abiding citizen you are. We get it. You never break a single rule. Ever.

Some of us, however, don't see the rulemakers as the be all and end all of human reasoning. Some of us are fully capable of making decisions for ourselves as to whether or not our activities harm others.

I live by the Golden Rule. As long as I don't break that one, I sleep perfectly fine.

And BTW, everyone everywhere is impacted by everything you do. Rules/No Rules. They are irrelevant. Not a single bit of social change for the better would have occured without people acting outside the guidelines.

Hoop, glad you had a great time. That's my little section there. The section headed south is a bit rockier but with a great payoff about 3 miles in from 225. There is a lookout from where on a clear day you can see TMI.

fiddlehead

07-27-2008, 04:30

Well allow me to put in my 2 cents before the thread gets closed or dies

First of all, i don't see myself hiking the AT in peak season ever again. Way too crowded. I concentrate on other trails with way less or practically no people. Fits my style so much better.

However, i remember on the PCT when people started putting out water at key areas. It was a nice thought. However i had planned ahead and didn't need it.
Then a few years later, i did that trail again. This time, I was shocked to see perhaps 10 times more water put out for hikers than the earlier hike (5 years apart)

It was even almost considered pollution IMO as there were piles and piles of boxes of water and empties laying around. Well, yes, the inevitable happened: I didn't meet them personally but heard thru the grapevine that some hikers were relying on that water being put there and didn't have a plan if it was NOT there. Sure enough, one day they got to one of those stashes and the bottles were all dry. They had a rough time because they counted on it.

THAT is the problem here the way i see it. Hey, i like to yogi some snacks, maybe a hamburger or hot dog on a weekend when hiking through state parks or places like bear mtn or a campground in SNP. However, i would never ask for it outright ( i like to challenge my yogi'ing skills ) and i would never never expect it. But not everyone is the same.

THat being said: I don't think SOBO'ers have this problem.

woodsy

07-27-2008, 07:22

What do humans and animals have in common? They can both be habituated by food hand outs.

The Old Fhart

07-27-2008, 07:50

Hoop Time-"...I think we have found our answer to the whole magic question. We all had a great hike and really enjoyed it. I think we'll try to do this more often, but with a bigger stash in Cookie Monster's daypack.

Shades Of Gray-"There's a wide range of activities that fall within the guidelines. All it takes is a small effort to come up with more creative and interesting alternatives which don't involve others who through no decision of their own are sometimes impacted."It is good to see people take an experience and turn it into something positive. Although Hoop Time was disappointed that his plan on leaving food wouldn't work, he turned this a positive experience for the whole family and the hikers; plus his daughter now has the trail name 'Cookie Monster' she can be proud of as well. Bravo!

Shades Of Gray is spot on with his post. These laws, regulations, and rules are to protect the A.T. for everyone. There is always a way to give to the trail and the people who use or maintain it without causing problems.

oldfivetango

07-27-2008, 09:01

This is the worst form of trail magic there is. Why someone would do such a thing is beyond reasoning.

Actually,I think the reasoning is that it keeps the soda cool for
the next responsible hiker who comes along and will surely dispose
of the can or bottle properly.:D
Oldfivetango

Bare Bear

07-28-2008, 22:50

I always carry a one gallon baggie for trash. When it gets full I stop picking up other peoples and just pack out my own. If we all did this then the problem would be solved without government intervention. I doubt we will ever change those that leave their trash or throw down their cig butts.

Pedaling Fool

07-28-2008, 22:55

Bare Bear

07-28-2008, 23:21

When I day hike in FL I used to carry a regular big garbage bag but it got so heavy I was ruining my hikes so I gave it up. And yeah I recall that mess at 19E. Some Trail Magic folks were cleaning it up but it was trashy along there. I didn't stop for their sandwiches but heard later they were like Subways.........nuts. :)

Mags

07-29-2008, 10:10

I think we have found our answer to the whole magic question. We all had a great hike and really enjoyed it. I think we'll try to do this more often, but with a bigger stash in Cookie Monster's daypack.

Sounds like a wonderful weekend!

Hoop Time

07-29-2008, 17:52

Unbelievable what this simple query turned into. this morning at work I got an e-mail from somebody from the NPS ... they actually found my work e-mail (which is not too hard since it is on the end of any stories I write for the paper, but still . . . ).

Oh my, just when I though this dustup had calmed down and all were happy with the outcome, I check my e-mail at work and find a message from teh superintendent of the trail, complaining that, among other things, "in
(my) haste to bash the National Park Service, Mr. Courogen failed to note
that (the person who sent the first e-mail) work(s) for the Appalachian Trail Conservancy."

My bad. I should have read it closer before attributing it to someone from NPS, although the policy I took issue with was an NPS policy.

I don't feel I "bashed" NPS, just disagreed with their policy in regards to what, at the time, we wanted to do. I won't rehash all that, especially since the whole issue has since been resolved in a very positive manner.

No need to name the ATC person, since I did not name them in the original post. But I did want to clarify the origin of the e-mail. As we say in corrections in the paper, we regret the error.