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How often do you come across an outhouse or some sort of toilet along a thru hike.
minnesotasmith
07-30-2008, 11:01
How often do you come across an outhouse or some sort of toilet along a thru hike.
Often enough, except for the more primitive areas like the GSNP and New Jersey. ;)
Mrs Baggins
07-30-2008, 11:32
At shelters. Trees are far more prevalent however and don't have the stench and flies of the privies.
There are only a couple of sections which don't have a privy at every shelter. One is the Tennessee Eastman Hiking Club section (northern TN), another section is part of the Smokies (some do, some don't have privies), and then there's the bit in NY where the shelters are very far apart.
Note that a lot of the privies are of the mouldering variety where they ask you not to pee in them.
Blissful
07-30-2008, 11:36
The great outdoors. :)
Inevitably you will come to a privy, and don't need to use it. Half an hour later, you need it and it's not there. So the woods becomes your home away from home.
Blissful
07-30-2008, 11:39
Note that a lot of the privies are of the mouldering variety where they ask you not to pee in them.
Well, that depends (and got me a little confused). Most privy signs warn - DON'T PEE. But some others said - go ahead and pee, it helps with decomposition to have moisture (?)
If you have to ask, you're probably not ready for a thru-hike. ;)
Pedaling Fool
07-30-2008, 11:57
I can't remember up north, because I've only been through there once. But down south (Ga - Harper's Ferry), as others have mentioned, they are pretty much at every shelter, exceptions are GSMNP which have ~12 shelters and ~ half don't have privies. Then you got the Tennessee Eastman's section from Spivey Gap to Damascus, Va (~132 miles). Those guys don't like privies, not sure why.
Then you got the privies, all along the entire AT, which you couldn't pay me enough to sit in. Bottom line, if you spend enough time on the AT, it's best to get a system down for doing your business the natural way. It took some practice, but I got my system down, so much so that I've come to hate privies in general.
I was just curious as to what to expect while being out there, i origionally thought there would not be any.
Pedaling Fool
07-30-2008, 12:17
I was just curious as to what to expect while being out there, i origionally thought there would not be any.
What section you planning to hike? Ever been on the AT before?
Never hiked on the AT, Just other trips in ky. Im just very interested in the AT and would like to hike a section of it this year and start planning a thru after that.
Pedaling Fool
07-30-2008, 12:25
Here some info:
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.730555/k.96ED/State_by_State.htm
http://www.aldha.org/comp_pdf.htm
Well, that depends (and got me a little confused). Most privy signs warn - DON'T PEE. But some others said - go ahead and pee, it helps with decomposition to have moisture (?)
Very true.
As a long-time composter of kitchen and garden waste, I agree that decomposition is normally helped by moisture, right up to the point where the compost pile is drowned, then decomposition stops. It may theoretically be possible to drown a mouldering privy with pee, but I've never seen one even approaching that level of wetness. I disagree with the recommendation not to pee in privies, but I don't rule the world.
In the meantime, until I am asked for advice by the powers that be, there are contradictory instructions in the privies constructed by different clubs along the Trail.
Pedaling Fool
07-30-2008, 12:35
Very true.
As a long-time composter of kitchen and garden waste, I agree that decomposition is normally helped by moisture, right up to the point where the compost pile is drowned, then decomposition stops. It may theoretically be possible to drown a mouldering privy with pee, but I've never seen one even approaching that level of wetness. I disagree with the recommendation not to pee in privies, but I don't rule the world.
In the meantime, until I am asked for advice by the powers that be, there are contradictory instructions in the privies constructed by different clubs along the Trail.
I compost also and have come to the same conclusions. I don't see a little pee hurting any thing.
sheepdog
07-30-2008, 12:47
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0898156270/ref=sib_dp_pt/105-0261273-3340414#reader-link
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GNB36BA8L._SL500_BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0898156270/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link)
Perhaps this could help.
Blissful
07-30-2008, 12:53
Never hiked on the AT, Just other trips in ky. Im just very interested in the AT and would like to hike a section of it this year and start planning a thru after that.
Loads of info here on White Blaze. Check out the ATC (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.1423119/k.BEA0/Home.htm) web site for info also.
(oops just saw that link was posted)
Tennessee Viking
07-30-2008, 13:01
I can't remember up north, because I've only been through there once. But down south (Ga - Harper's Ferry), as others have mentioned, they are pretty much at every shelter, exceptions are GSMNP which have ~12 shelters and ~ half don't have privies. Then you got the Tennessee Eastman's section from Spivey Gap to Damascus, Va (~132 miles). Those guys don't like privies, not sure why.
Then you got the privies, all along the entire AT, which you couldn't pay me enough to sit in. Bottom line, if you spend enough time on the AT, it's best to get a system down for doing your business the natural way. It took some practice, but I got my system down, so much so that I've come to hate privies in general.It is mainly due to privy abuse. Our section is one of more popular and accessible sections, bringing more tourists and trail abusers.
We had an incident just recently where a few college kids were camping at the Barn for spring break. Just take a guess; college kids, spring break...They filled the privy half way full of liquor bottles and trash because they didn't want to hike the half mile out with it. We had to go in and smash everything down.
Vandaventer and Laurel Fork Shelters are not allowed to have privies being in wilderness areas.
We may review the privy situation in the future.
Flush2wice
07-30-2008, 13:09
Here's a prototype of the privys that Tennessee Eastman Hiking Club plans to erect along it's section.
http://pinerootpottery.com/privy.jpg
earlyriser26
07-30-2008, 13:25
Just ask any bear
Footslogger
07-30-2008, 13:34
Here's a prototype of the privys that Tennessee Eastman Hiking Club plans to erect along it's section.
http://pinerootpottery.com/privy.jpg
=================================
Well ...the accomodations aren't so hot but at least they've got DISH !!
'Slogger
In 170 miles last May in GA and NC I only used a cat hole twice. This is pretty much what I expected.
that suprizes me a bit, but also sounds good.
angewrite
07-30-2008, 14:28
I was just curious as to what to expect while being out there, i origionally thought there would not be any.
There are no toilets or porta potties. There are composting privies at most shelters. Be prepared to dig cat holes if necessary.
Plodderman
07-30-2008, 14:30
Timing is evrything.
My understanding of why some ask you to refrain from peeing in the toilet is as follows, I may be mistaken on some of the details:
A composting toilet needs some degree of moisture to sustain the bacteria and other organisms, including worms, that are required to decompose the feces. These toilets are designed either within a pit, or built above ground, with the holding area within an solid enclosure. Composting toilets depend on heat to make the feces biologically safe. Some moisture is required, but not a lot, thus some caretakers advise men to use the woods for urine.
Mouldering toilets are those built above ground, with the enclosure for the feces made of chicken wire. These are designed to break down the feces in a dry environment, eventually having it crumble apart. It is these that require all urine to be deposited outside the toilet.
Both of these methods make use of dry forest duff or sawdust to cover the feces and thus control the odors. This dry duff can absorb some of the urine deposited in a composting toilet, but not enough of it in a mouldering toilet.
For excellent information on composting toilets check out the Humanure Handbook. It is available at bookstores, or as a free download from the following website:
http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.html
http://jenkinspublishing.com/humanure_contents.html (free download, PDF format)
Pedaling Fool
07-30-2008, 14:57
...Some moisture is required, but not a lot, thus some caretakers advise men to use the woods for urine....
Shouldn't be much of a concern. I don't know any guy that's going to use a privy to piss in. Except of course when they do their other business, but that doesn't add enough to worry about.
minnesotasmith
07-30-2008, 15:13
There are no toilets or porta potties.
The 501 and RPH shelters had porta-johns, I think.
Blissful
07-30-2008, 16:48
The best privy IMO on the AT was that one at Tumbling Run shelters in PA. Freshly whitewashed on the inside. Four huge rolls of TP. And a doorbell. :)
Blissful
07-30-2008, 16:52
There are no toilets or porta potties. There are composting privies at most shelters. Be prepared to dig cat holes if necessary.
Actually, Partnership Shelter has a nice john - at the Mt Rogers visitor center. And warm showers.
The AT also passes through the middle of several towns where public toilets are available - like at libraries, restaurants etc
Footslogger
07-30-2008, 17:36
The best privy IMO on the AT was that one at Tumbling Run shelters in PA. Freshly whitewashed on the inside. Four huge rolls of TP. And a doorbell. :)
==================================
How about the first one you hit coming out of Caledonia State Park ? Lighted walkway and really clean.
'Slogger
Speer Carrier
07-30-2008, 17:49
The best privy IMO on the AT was that one at Tumbling Run shelters in PA. Freshly whitewashed on the inside. Four huge rolls of TP. And a doorbell. :)
Best facility has to be the rest rooms at the Fontana Hilton. Other than that, I'd vote for the chemical toilet at Woody Gap. After that any new mouldering privy is okay. Can't beat a well place fallen log either.
The Solemates
07-30-2008, 17:50
Privies are disgusting and I prefer to go in the woods....
saimyoji
07-30-2008, 18:16
just carry your own. there are several lightweight options these days :cool:
Skidsteer
07-30-2008, 18:24
I was just curious as to what to expect while being out there, i origionally thought there would not be any.
Some are better than others. I prefer to go in the woods, particularly in Summer.
Here's a short video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPC9rbjzbm8
Hard to tell in the vid but there were bees and flies everywhere. Stench too.
Your choice though.
Analogman
07-31-2008, 10:27
How often do you come across an outhouse or some sort of toilet along a thru hike.
It's interesting the amount of time and energy we humans, especially hikers and campers, expend on a problem that every other species on the planet had figured out eons ago.
My only recommendation - dig a nice hole, I use a tent peg for this function, and make sure you locate it politely. You certainly don't want to leave a surprise for the next guy or gal to happen along.
What would an example of these light weight toilets be that you talk about? maybe a link or a photo would be nice. something like this would be nice for just general camping with friends and family also.
cowboy nichols
07-31-2008, 11:20
The last time I was on the AT the human waste and toilet paper was a discrace. This was 4 years ago between Springer and Harper's Ferry. I hope this problem has improved. My own method is a cathole far off the trail and I try to always burn the paper. Was taught this as a youngster and my Mother was a STRICT teacher.
Odd Thomas
07-31-2008, 11:34
At shelters. Trees are far more prevalent however and don't have the stench and flies of the privies.
Unless there arn't any privies :D
minnesotasmith
07-31-2008, 13:26
It's interesting the amount of time and energy we humans, especially hikers and campers, expend on a problem that every other species on the planet had figured out eons ago.
My only recommendation - dig a nice hole, I use a tent peg for this function, and make sure you locate it politely. You certainly don't want to leave a surprise for the next guy or gal to happen along.
The ground is frozen solid, covered by solid ice (with or without snow above that), and there are no loose rocks or leaves to scatter over your "result". This happened to me on Mt. Glastenbury, VT., around early Nov. 2006. What then?
The ground is frozen solid, covered by solid ice (with or without snow above that), and there are no loose rocks or leaves to scatter over your "result". This happened to me on Mt. Glastenbury, VT., around early Nov. 2006. What then?
Pack it in - Pack it out. Not really much of a problem, especially in winter.
minnesotasmith
07-31-2008, 14:10
Pack it in - Pack it out. Not really much of a problem, especially in winter.
I was slackpacking, with minimal clothes (all my "in-case" stuff was on, and I was still freezing), fighting incipient hypothermia, trying to make it through a minimum of 6" of snow to the next road before dark. Hanging around long enough for "it" to freeze, prying it up, etc., wasn't going to happen. Anyway, I wasn't ON the Trail, but a distance from it.
StarLyte
07-31-2008, 14:19
The ground is frozen solid, covered by solid ice (with or without snow above that), and there are no loose rocks or leaves to scatter over your "result". This happened to me on Mt. Glastenbury, VT., around early Nov. 2006. What then?
WOW - good scenario MS ! Never thought of that, obviously it hasn't happened to me :D
I'm anxious to read the response to this as well :-?
Pedaling Fool
07-31-2008, 14:44
Most animals don't dig cat-holes, which doesn't bother me, but it does bother me that so many do their business on the AT.
P.S. I think the first pic is from a turkey. Looked like crap from a Canadian goose, only a much bigger pile.
I was slackpacking, with minimal clothes (all my "in-case" stuff was on, and I was still freezing), fighting incipient hypothermia, trying to make it through a minimum of 6" of snow to the next road before dark. Hanging around long enough for "it" to freeze, prying it up, etc., wasn't going to happen. Anyway, I wasn't ON the Trail, but a distance from it.
For someone who harps on being prepared this is quite out of character for you
My understanding of why some ask you to refrain from peeing in the toilet is as follows, I may be mistaken on some of the details:
A composting toilet needs some degree of moisture to sustain the bacteria and other organisms, including worms, that are required to decompose the feces. These toilets are designed either within a pit, or built above ground, with the holding area within an solid enclosure. Composting toilets depend on heat to make the feces biologically safe. Some moisture is required, but not a lot, thus some caretakers advise men to use the woods for urine.
Mouldering toilets are those built above ground, with the enclosure for the feces made of chicken wire. These are designed to break down the feces in a dry environment, eventually having it crumble apart. It is these that require all urine to be deposited outside the toilet.
Both of these methods make use of dry forest duff or sawdust to cover the feces and thus control the odors. This dry duff can absorb some of the urine deposited in a composting toilet, but not enough of it in a mouldering toilet.
For excellent information on composting toilets check out the Humanure Handbook. It is available at bookstores, or as a free download from the following website:
http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.html
http://jenkinspublishing.com/humanure_contents.html (free download, PDF format)
Batch bin composting systems, like the ones used for outhouses maintained by the GMC and AMC, use aerobic (in the presence of oxygen) decompostion. The organisms that break down the feces require lots of oxygen to live, colonize, consume and heat up the compost to kill off all the bad pathogens in human feces. Too much moisture (pee) in the compost lowers the oxygen, aerobic decomposition stops and anaerobic (absence of oxygen) starts. The feces in pit toilets decompose anaerobically. This can take a decade and its possible for fecal pathogens to survive for years. Basically the liquid fills up any air channels within the pile. One of the things the bark in composting does is it creates a matrix of air channels all through the pile. The bark also absorbs the liquid, so the more liquid the more bark is required. Most of the outhouses maintained by the AMC (I suspect the GMC too) have added liquid separaters in the last 10 years to help remove moisture while the feces sit in the collector. Near the bottom of the collector is a false floor with dozens of holes. The liquid falls through the holes into the bottom of the collector and flows out via a tube behind the house to a filter barrell. The AMC reduced the amount of bark it need to fly to campsites each year by 1/3rd when it installed liquid separaters on 13 of its 14 outhouses in New Hampshire and Maine. Take it from someone whos maintained composting outhouses, please pee in the woods.
Celt
AMC caretaker
East Rotator 2004 (55 gallons)
Garfield 2005 (220 gallons)
Mahoosuc Rover 2006 (550 gallons of waste composted)
ATC backcountry sanitation manual: http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/1%20Content%20and%20Introduction.pdf
Something disgusting: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=12558&c=653
Pedaling Fool
07-31-2008, 22:36
Batch bin composting systems, like the ones used for outhouses maintained by the GMC and AMC, use aerobic (in the presence of oxygen) decompostion. The organisms that break down the feces require lots of oxygen to live, colonize, consume and heat up the compost to kill off all the bad pathogens in human feces. Too much moisture (pee) in the compost lowers the oxygen, aerobic decomposition stops and anaerobic (absence of oxygen) starts. The feces in pit toilets decompose anaerobically. This can take a decade and its possible for fecal pathogens to survive for years. Basically the liquid fills up any air channels within the pile. One of the things the bark in composting does is it creates a matrix of air channels all through the pile. The bark also absorbs the liquid, so the more liquid the more bark is required. Most of the outhouses maintained by the AMC (I suspect the GMC too) have added liquid separaters in the last 10 years to help remove moisture while the feces sit in the collector. Near the bottom of the collector is a false floor with dozens of holes. The liquid falls through the holes into the bottom of the collector and flows out via a tube behind the house to a filter barrell. The AMC reduced the amount of bark it need to fly to campsites each year by 1/3rd when it installed liquid separaters on 13 of its 14 outhouses in New Hampshire and Maine. Take it from someone whos maintained composting outhouses, please pee in the woods.
Celt
AMC caretaker
East Rotator 2004 (55 gallons)
Garfield 2005 (220 gallons)
Mahoosuc Rover 2006 (550 gallons of waste composted)
ATC backcountry sanitation manual: http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/1%20Content%20and%20Introduction.pdf
Something disgusting: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=12558&c=653
Hey Celt, I don't want to get in a pissing match with you over this subject (yeah slight pun). I don't have any experience with maintaining privies, but I do compost and I know compost needs moisture, but you definitely don't want too much moisture for the reasons you mentioned.
There are two important factors, IMO the most important, in a healthy compost pile (I would imagine privies are the same).
1. Material will decompose quickly if you break up in small pieces or into mash/mush.
2. On a regular basis you must sift your compost to oxygenate it.
Do you know of any other things to make the stuff decompose faster and I have one other question concerning pee. Do you ask females not to use the privies? I believe it's kind of natural for guys (and I guess females) to piss while doing their other business. Do you expect them to hold the piss until they get out of the privy?
Do you ask females not to use the privies? I believe it's kind of natural for guys (and I guess females) to piss while doing their other business. Do you expect them to hold the piss until they get out of the privy?
At Goose Pond Cabin in MA, the privy had two seats; one for #1 and one for #2. The sign says, "If you don't know the difference, please do your business elsewhere."
Pedaling Fool
07-31-2008, 22:48
Hey Celt, I don't want to get in a pissing match with you over this subject (yeah slight pun). I don't have any experience with maintaining privies, but I do compost and I know compost needs moisture, but you definitely don't want too much moisture for the reasons you mentioned.
There are two important factors, IMO the most important, in a healthy compost pile (I would imagine privies are the same).
1. Material will decompose quickly if you break up in small pieces or into mash/mush.
2. On a regular basis you must sift your compost to oxygenate it.
Do you know of any other things to make the stuff decompose faster and I have one other question concerning pee. Do you ask females not to use the privies? I believe it's kind of natural for guys (and I guess females) to piss while doing their other business. Do you expect them to hold the piss until they get out of the privy?
Hey Celt, a couple other thoughts. I was impressed by some organizations including yours of how much work went into the privies. However, I've seen many more that stink really bad (the mouldering type). This is my take on that:
1. Not much maintenance, the pile just sits there.
2. I've come to many privies and had to refill the mulch bucket, so not many people add the catalyst after they do their business. That's is bad, but I wonder how much that actually hurts since there seems to be very little maintenance accomplished. If you have a pile of >>>> it's going to take a while to decompose if it's not turned once in a while, regardless if everyone throws in the mulch.
Hey Celt, There are two important factors, IMO the most important, in a healthy compost pile (I would imagine privies are the same).
1. Material will decompose quickly if you break up in small pieces or into mash/mush.
2. On a regular basis you must sift your compost to oxygenate it.
Do you know of any other things to make the stuff decompose faster and I have one other question concerning pee. Do you ask females not to use the privies? I believe it's kind of natural for guys (and I guess females) to piss while doing their other business. Do you expect them to hold the piss until they get out of the privy?
I don't know of any other tricks. Regularly homogonizing of the collector throughout filling may help but its mostly to make the work of mixing in bark easier (getting those fine pieces). The AMC does use about 30% used bark reclaimed from the previous runs. These hard chunks of wood are good for the structuring of air channels and we mix them in before the new bark to start breaking up chunks.
I never discriminated when I asked hikers not to pee in the privy. I kept my request simple, explaining to everyone that as a composting privy it would help the process if the house wasn't used just for peeing. I tried to suggest a good place to find privacy, important at a busy site. As a first year caretaker everyone was reminded that many people, male and female, go #1 when going #2 and we weren't trying to stop that. The no pee request is directed at visits for pee only.
...a couple other thoughts. I was impressed by some organizations including yours of how much work went into the privies. However, I've seen many more that stink really bad (the mouldering type). This is my take on that:
1. Not much maintenance, the pile just sits there.
2. I've come to many privies and had to refill the mulch bucket, so not many people add the catalyst after they do their business. That's is bad, but I wonder how much that actually hurts since there seems to be very little maintenance accomplished. If you have a pile of >>>> it's going to take a while to decompose if it's not turned once in a while, regardless if everyone throws in the mulch.
Good thoughts. A well maintained muldering privy can smell fine to me but I've also caught a whiff of what your talking about. Muldering's are meant to be low maintenance and are used at un-manned sites with lower use levels but I think they get smelliest during busy periods. Outhouse maintenance that rely on the users will always suffer a bit. Not surprising considering many people's phobias about front-country bathrooms and germs. Again I think the muldering process, because its slow, can stand some neglect as long as it gets good professional, or volunteer, maintenance from time to time. The AMC built a couple of muldering privies on the Grafton Loop Trail in Maine and routine maintenance includes a bag of planer chips which work well to control moisture.
minnesotasmith
08-01-2008, 08:24
For someone who harps on being prepared this is quite out of character for you
I had brought extra clothes with me. They were all on me, as the conditions were grossly unseasonable. A local told me later that winter conditions had hit the mountains over a month early. An hour and a half later, I was back in mud at temps I did not need them all. I was okay as long as I kept moving, which is what I did.
He may be talking about your need for a gallon ziplock, newsprint, and a pack it out mindset.
minnesotasmith
08-01-2008, 11:52
He may be talking about your need for a gallon ziplock, newsprint, and a pack it out mindset.
I had my lunch at the shelter there, but couldn't find the privy in time.
Once you use a couple of privies, you'll prefer using the little bears room.
Late spring in GA, you better know how to do the Dairy Queen swirl.