View Full Version : Southbound thru hike leaving in early October 2010
southernpine85
07-30-2008, 17:10
I am in the early stages of planning a southbound thru hike with a departure goal of October 9, 2010. My goal is to complete the hike in seven months and therefore I am in no rush to break any daily mileage records. Most of my hiking up to this point has been day hiking during all seasons and I enjoy hiking in the winter the most out of all seasons. I have read several of the winter thru hike threads and I am aware of the brutal weather and conditions, especially in Maine/New Hampshire. My thoughts are that I have two years to research, plan, and fully prepare for this trip.
As you can imagine, I have many questions that I wish to have answered. To start off here are two that I have had some trouble finding answers to.
1)How many days worth of food should I carry in the pack? In the winter, I would expect there to be fewer supply points that are open for business in addition to the need for more calories in cold weather and the possible emergency factor.
2)What is the best way to figure out mileage on the trail? I am looking for a good map or book that lists mileage between towns so that I can get a gauge for how far I would travel under various mileage rates.
Thank You
1) You should look at Jack Tarlin's resupply write-up in the articles section where he lays out how many days between resupply. Your progress may be slower with bad weather, and there may be certain places that are closed for the winter. I'd read some trailjournals to start getting an idea of how long people take to clear each section.
2) daily miles depends on fitness level, conditions, packweight and desire. Varies tremendously per individual. Check out the Companion, Thru-hikers Handbook or Appalachian Pages. Also, you can buy map sets from the ATC website. appalachiantrail.org
You might want to check out Grizzly Adam's trailjournals on trailjournals.com I believe he left in October one year and was stopped early and often due to snow. Who knows, you may catch a mild winter, but be prepared for lots of snow, short days, cold and lots of loneliness.
Good luck
The Solemates
07-30-2008, 17:20
I am in the early stages of planning a southbound thru hike with a departure goal of October 9, 2010. My goal is to complete the hike in seven months and therefore I am in no rush to break any daily mileage records. Most of my hiking up to this point has been day hiking during all seasons and I enjoy hiking in the winter the most out of all seasons. I have read several of the winter thru hike threads and I am aware of the brutal weather and conditions, especially in Maine/New Hampshire. My thoughts are that I have two years to research, plan, and fully prepare for this trip.
As you can imagine, I have many questions that I wish to have answered. To start off here are two that I have had some trouble finding answers to.
1)How many days worth of food should I carry in the pack? In the winter, I would expect there to be fewer supply points that are open for business in addition to the need for more calories in cold weather and the possible emergency factor.
2)What is the best way to figure out mileage on the trail? I am looking for a good map or book that lists mileage between towns so that I can get a gauge for how far I would travel under various mileage rates.
Thank You
1) This is personal preference in my opinion. For me, just because I can go into town for resupply is not necessarily a reason to do just that. For instance, on our thru we did not stop in some towns and carried food until the next one. But in all, I would say that in the winter it shouldnt be that much different than a 2-season thru-hike. Sure, some establishments may not be open, but most of these will more than likely be hostels, restaurants/waysides, and perhaps the occasional grocer, but honestly i wouldnt worry about it too much. If you have doubts, do a maildrop.
2) www.aldha.org, whiteblaze pages, thruhikers handbook
Cookerhiker
07-30-2008, 17:53
You didn't ask for this but you're going to hear it eventually: the White Mountains are going to be in full winter mode. I'll assume you're very fit and can reach NH by Nov. 1. You're still likely to have deep snow and cold temps especially in the Presidentials. It's essential that you have the best cold weather gear and that you inform people of your plans and whereabouts.
minnesotasmith
07-30-2008, 18:29
I am in the early stages of planning a southbound thru hike with a departure goal of October 9, 2010.
I wouldn't do that if I were you. I suggest you leave Katahdin at least 6 weeks earlier.
Lone Wolf
07-30-2008, 18:32
if he wanted to leave 6 weeks earlier he would've said so.
minnesotasmith
07-30-2008, 19:29
if he wanted to leave 6 weeks earlier he would've said so.
1) He's all of 23.
2) He has a grand total of 6 posts on WB, with no indication he's lurked (e.g. read much here on what winter in the Whites is like).
3) Most of his hiking experience is dayhiking. You and I both know
there is all the difference in the world between starting and ending a 3-hour walk at a warm house, and hiking while living out in the snow for days at a time.
4) When he asked for how to tell mileage on the Trail, it was obvious he had no idea of the maps nor guidebooks that are out there. That sounds to me as if he had not the slightest bit of research behind him.
5) If I were going to be hiking the AT predominantly in deep winter, starting on the harder end, I would be absolutely obsessed with optimizing gear issues, and physical fitness preparation. This guy may be in great shape, or just figures that BC he's young he can "bull through" most anything.
I think all this adds up to him not having the slightest idea so far what the magnitude or nature is of what he's considering. While not quite at the level of the Wild Cowboy hoax, the impression he gives IMO is that it's still good odds he won't do a single state, given his departure point and date.
southernpine85
07-30-2008, 20:15
Well based on MS's response, I guess two years isn't enough time to research and gain more experience for this trip. Maybe I'll try it when I'm 40+?
Lone Wolf
07-30-2008, 20:18
Well based on MS's response, I guess two years isn't enough time to research and gain more experience for this trip. Maybe I'll try it when I'm 40+?
disregard his post. keep planning and ask questions but the majority of folks on here have not done what you want to do. go for it
1) He's all of 23.
2) He has a grand total of 6 posts on WB, with no indication he's lurked (e.g. read much here on what winter in the Whites is like).
3) Most of his hiking experience is dayhiking. You and I both know
there is all the difference in the world between starting and ending a 3-hour walk at a warm house, and hiking while living out in the snow for days at a time.
4) When he asked for how to tell mileage on the Trail, it was obvious he had no idea of the maps nor guidebooks that are out there. That sounds to me as if he had not the slightest bit of research behind him.
5) If I were going to be hiking the AT predominantly in deep winter, starting on the harder end, I would be absolutely obsessed with optimizing gear issues, and physical fitness preparation. This guy may be in great shape, or just figures that BC he's young he can "bull through" most anything.
I think all this adds up to him not having the slightest idea so far what the magnitude or nature is of what he's considering. While not quite at the level of the Wild Cowboy hoax, the impression he gives IMO is that it's still good odds he won't do a single state, given his departure point and date.
If we learned anything from YOUR hike, it would be that even the unlikeliest people can make it. I don't think it's so wise to be starting then, but he's doing his homework 2 years early.
hammock engineer
07-30-2008, 20:42
Enjoy your hike, don't listen to any bad stuff. If that is what you want to do and you are prepared then go for it.
Something to keep in mind is the option of flipping. No reason you can't hike south until the snow or weather gets too bad, jump farther south or go to Springer and hike north, and finish your hike that way.
One huge thing I learned southbound late last year, I finished January 20th, is to keep your options open and don't try to hike the way you pictured it in your head. Pack extra food, warmth, and entertainment and enjoy.
Feel free to PM me if there is anything I can help or answer for you. Same for any other southbounders.
fiddlehead
07-31-2008, 00:02
Also keep in mind that the nights are getting longer and the days shorter.
You should think about getting up before dawn and cooking so that you are out on the trail at first light. and hike until dark. This means maybe carrying a good headlamp with extra batteries as you will be cooking and eating in the dark.
Here is what the whites looked like one day in 2001 when we started Oct 14 for our SOBO "supported" hike: http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg201/fiddleheadpa/whitessmaller.jpg
This was the day we climbed Moosilauki (sp?) and our last day in the whites. We got lucky the day we went over Mt. Washington and only had flurries and great views.
Have a good hike! (be prepared to bail sometimes and sit out some weather)
Yep, you pretty much have almost everything working against you in winter. Shorter days, longer nights. Cold means extra weight in the pack. Jackets and warmer clothes. Extra fuel to heat water or melt snow. Extra batteries for flashlights, or candles. Extra fuel for yourself. The trail is harder in every respect -- harder to walk, harder to find. Off-trail services will be similarly sparse. Fewer hours in which to walk, and in those fewer hours, the walking's that much harder than it would be in summer.
I'm sure it can be quite rewarding. I've done a few day hikes in the Whites in the winter, and they can be a blast. The views are great. You'll have lots of great stories to tell.
Monkeywrench
07-31-2008, 08:08
Yep, you pretty much have almost everything working against you in winter. Shorter days, longer nights. Cold means extra weight in the pack. Jackets and warmer clothes. Extra fuel to heat water or melt snow. Extra batteries for flashlights, or candles. Extra fuel for yourself. The trail is harder in every respect -- harder to walk, harder to find. Off-trail services will be similarly sparse. Fewer hours in which to walk, and in those fewer hours, the walking's that much harder than it would be in summer.
Yeah, but there's no BUGS! :sun
1) He's all of 23.
2) He has a grand total of 6 posts on WB, with no indication he's lurked (e.g. read much here on what winter in the Whites is like).
3) Most of his hiking experience is dayhiking. You and I both know
there is all the difference in the world between starting and ending a 3-hour walk at a warm house, and hiking while living out in the snow for days at a time.
4) When he asked for how to tell mileage on the Trail, it was obvious he had no idea of the maps nor guidebooks that are out there. That sounds to me as if he had not the slightest bit of research behind him.
5) If I were going to be hiking the AT predominantly in deep winter, starting on the harder end, I would be absolutely obsessed with optimizing gear issues, and physical fitness preparation. This guy may be in great shape, or just figures that BC he's young he can "bull through" most anything.
I think all this adds up to him not having the slightest idea so far what the magnitude or nature is of what he's considering. While not quite at the level of the Wild Cowboy hoax, the impression he gives IMO is that it's still good odds he won't do a single state, given his departure point and date.
I'll second it to disregard this post.
Be aware of some inflated egos here as the above post shows.
Be advised, snow fell on the higher peaks in Maine mid October last year.
No big deal, about mid November, snow was covering all the mountainous areas.
hammock engineer
07-31-2008, 09:13
How could I forget about the short days. I remember spending so much time with my headlamp on. Getting up at 6am, eating, and packing up in the dark. Just to get going at first light. Then getting to camp in time to see where everything is at around 5pm before it got dark.
Still possible to do the 20 mile days, you just need to get a good start and keep trucking. On thing we would do is try to get 10 or 12 miles in by lunch on the big days. Opens up the rest of the day.
Really the pack weight wasn't too much more than my summer weight. Including all the differences maybe 5 lbs more. By that time in my hike I was eating so much anyways, the difference in the weather for more food wasn't much.
The Solemates
07-31-2008, 09:15
I'll second it to disregard this post.
Be aware of some inflated egos here as the above post shows.
Be advised, snow fell on the higher peaks in Maine mid October last year.
No big deal, about mid November, snow was covering all the mountainous areas.
Agreed, and will add that I've been snowed on (2-inches) in October in the Smokies, so it comes to no surprise that Maine/NH/VT will be even heavier snowfall.
The Solemates
07-31-2008, 09:16
Agreed, and will add that I've been snowed on (2-inches) in October in the Smokies, so it comes to no surprise that Maine/NH/VT will be even heavier snowfall.
Actually now that I think about it, it flurried on us in September 2006 while doing Katahdin.
I had snow in the 100-mile wilderness mid-September. A half-inch on the shelter roof in the AM. Brief whiteout at mid-day. All melted and 60 degrees at 6 PM that evening.
Cookerhiker
07-31-2008, 09:37
Back in the second week of October in '88, I section hiked the Wildcat-Carter-Moriah range where there was a snow base of a few inches on top. Across the valley the Presidentials were coverd. It began snowing as I approached Carter Hut and snowed all night and into the morning. Fortunately I had just bought a new winter sleeping bag. I hiked up Carter Dome but with the snow continuing, I decided to bail and took a side trail back to Rt. 16.
The same system affected the entire Appalachian chain; I later heard there was an ice storm in Shenandoah NP.
minnesotasmith
07-31-2008, 13:11
Also keep in mind that the nights are getting longer and the days shorter.
You should think about getting up before dawn and cooking so that you are out on the trail at first light. and hike until dark. This means maybe carrying a good headlamp with extra batteries as you will be cooking and eating in the dark.
Here is what the whites looked like one day in 2001 when we started Oct 14 for our SOBO "supported" hike: http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg201/fiddleheadpa/whitessmaller.jpg
This was the day we climbed Moosilauki (sp?) and our last day in the whites. We got lucky the day we went over Mt. Washington and only had flurries and great views.
Have a good hike! (be prepared to bail sometimes and sit out some weather)
What kind of daily mileage does someone expect to make in that in the Whites or southern Maine, especially when they get to the sustained 50+ degree inclines? Again, I just think there is an air of unreality based on very little information here. I suggest anyone inclined to leave SOBO in what is just about winter should get more info before committing to doing it.
P.S. I will add that I was in Baxter Park from what, October 12-15, 2006 . Katahdin (little different elevation from some of the Presidentials, and lower than Mt. Washington by about a thousand feet) had already had at least one Class IV day before I got there. There was snow and ice in the shade that 2 sunny days in a row had not melted. I can only guess what it would have been like a month later. This is what southernpine is intending to go into. While not like the 3 guys that got themselves killed on Mt. Hood (?) last winter, the 4 Quebecers that started up the Huntingdon Ravine trail late afternoon in street clothes, etc., it still smacks to me of poor judgement/information for someone not already an expert on that activity to do.
There are people on this site who could do this thing, albeit still with some challenges. I'm not yet inclined to think the original poster is one of them.
There's an unequaled planning resource (http://www.nps.gov/appa/planyourvisit/upload/APPA%20Map.pdf) southernpine85 requested, but no one's linked. Download Adobe Acrobat Reader before clicking on the link provided. A link to this software can be located on ALDHA's website where you can also download the files which together comprise The Online Companion, another excellent planning resource.
Blissful
07-31-2008, 19:56
Also keep in mind that the nights are getting longer and the days shorter.
You should think about getting up before dawn and cooking so that you are out on the trail at first light. and hike until dark. This means maybe carrying a good headlamp with extra batteries as you will be cooking and eating in the dark.
Here is what the whites looked like one day in 2001 when we started Oct 14 for our SOBO "supported" hike: http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg201/fiddleheadpa/whitessmaller.jpg
A photo is worth a thousand words. Don't take the Whites for granted and be prepared. But I think suggesting a late August start is good also. Enjoy a Enw England autumn if it works out for you.
Also, the days get real short. You end up with short daylight for hiking. So be sure you either like to hike at night with a headlamp or can book it for the amt of daylight you have to hike in. Something to consider.
You've got two winters between now and then to prepare yourself. Enjoy!
I'd rather be in Hanover on October 14 counting my blessings. GSMP might not be a picnic in winter either.
The advice suggested earlier to pay attention to the weather and sit out the worst of it strikes me as good.
kayak karl
07-31-2008, 20:33
You've got two winters between now and then to prepare yourself. Enjoy! He's got time to test gear and stamina, i would rather see them make this hike, then a ......... run the trail:D Sorry, my opinion!
I hope to leave SOBO in Mid Aug or early September. If I cannot make it by then I will probably sit it out until Feb and go NOBO. I want to winter hike because I hate heat and really hate bugs. I also don't want to be around hundreds of people. Ahhh sweet, sweet, silence. Good fortune in your travels.
What kind of daily mileage does someone expect to make in that in the Whites or southern Maine, especially when they get to the sustained 50+ degree inclines?
It's been done, albeit by stronger and younger hikers than myself. This photo is an example of the challenge you cite. It's near the summit of Mt. Hayes (on the AT, just north of Gorham.) The snow pictured was at least four feet deep. I had snowshoes on, and was struggling to make it up the short incline in the photo. At one point I removed the snowshoes, hoping that might help. Uh, no. I sank in down to my crotch. It then took another 10 minutes to put the snowshoes back on. Overall, the fifty yards in the photo took me at least 20-30 minutes to climb.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com/mt_hayes_snow_scene.jpg
minnesotasmith
08-01-2008, 08:40
Does anyone know where there's a cached copy of Weathercarrot's backup average annual AT snowfall maps? His site's been down over a year, and those maps could be helpful to anyone planning this kind of venture.
============================================
On another note, terrapin's useful post points out that that rate of movement, hiking during ALL of the time there is daylight, is less than a mile of progress per DAY.
On another note, terrapin's useful post points out that that rate of movement, hiking during ALL of the time there is daylight, is less than a mile of progress per DAY.
Well, I wouldn't go that far, MS. Don't extrapolate too much from that story -- it was a worst-case scenario, at least for me, on that trip. I actually walked about a dozen miles that day, on snowshoes, with full pack, up & over Mt. Hayes. The last few miles were in the dark, along the north bank of the Androscoggin River.
What it did teach me was that solo hiking in the Whites in winter might be a good way to die. I mean, if I had broken a leg at the summit... I'd have been as good as dead.
The AT has been thru-hiked in the winter, many times over. There are at least one or two accounts in the 1975 Rodale Press anthology. Wolf_2300 has done the New England stretch, solo, in winter.
hammock engineer
08-01-2008, 15:58
If I wasn't working for tha man I would go with you guys.
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg201/fiddleheadpa/whitessmaller.jpg
If that picture isn't enough to get me to totally rethink my plans, I don't know what is. :) Good luck to you, man.
mtnkngxt
09-08-2008, 11:08
Ice Axe, Crampons, and snow shoes would be mandatory I suppose? Also wht kind of pants, gaiters, and boots would one need to stay dry in those conditions?
The Solemates
09-08-2008, 11:47
Ice Axe, Crampons, and snow shoes would be mandatory I suppose? Also wht kind of pants, gaiters, and boots would one need to stay dry in those conditions?
you dont need an axe on the AT, and I wouldnt carry crampons either (although some sections in the winter they may be beneficial).
snowshoes...yes
IMO I typically avg. 1 mile per hour in winter in Maine and NH . Thats with a "full pack". For me I would have both snowshoes and crampons. I would also carry an axe as it can prove useful and they are not that heavy. I hiked Saddleback Mnt. to Sugarloaf in December. It took me two and a half full days. I consider myself to be a risktaker and my wife didnt want me to do it. But I love camping in the backcountry in the winter. However, to complete a winter thru hike would be a dream of mine too, best of luck and hope you suceed or atleast enjoy yourself!
Thought this thread was a great blast from the past:D. Wondering if Southernpine85 is still planning his trip for this October:-?
IronGutsTommy
08-21-2010, 06:05
if youve got room for a fellow hiker in your party im your huckleberry. sent u a msg pines, get back to me
takethisbread
08-21-2010, 11:15
Thought this thread was a great blast from the past:D. Wondering if Southernpine85 is still planning his trip for this October:-?
Myself and Ron Burgundy are leaving from Katahdin Sept 24. I hope to be around Killington by the end of October.
Well, I've done a reasonable amount of winter hiking and it is more difficult and comes with increased risk and reduced forgiveness of mistakes. Keep this in mind as you prepare.
Do not let others keep you from your attempt, but I would not say "pay no attention". Do pay attention to what others say, then figure out how you will deal with their objections or cautions.
By all means, use your planning time to gain first-hand winter experience. MS made a great point, Winter day hiking is VERY different from Winter Backpacking.
Plan, practice, keep a very open mind, and have a blast.
Last winter it took me 12 days (Dec.30-Jan.10) to get 87 miles on the Susquehannock Trail in central PA (less rugged than the AT). Two winters ago it took me 13 days to get 104 miles on the North Country Trail in NY-PA. Twice last winter I could only get 5 miles/day. It is slow going at times for me in the winter.
As mentioned the hiking window is short – and for me it was very difficult to do anything before first light. It is just too darn cold – I only wanted to get hunkered down deeper into my sleeping bag until daylight. On average I started hiking about 8:30 AM. 5:30 PM darkness was time for me to stop.
Two winters ago my Jetboil fuel froze and could not cook after day 5. Last winter I used Granite Gear’s aquasacks for my fuel container and that helped a lot. But my water bottles still froze if filled overnight (in the aquasack).
I had a 0 bag and it had “cold spots” on occasion and I shivered. Temps went below 0 a couple of times.
I used Nike ski pants and squeezed Outdoor Research crocodile gaiters over them as my top layers and my legs stayed dry. My boots leaked when fording streams and my day socks never did dry. Every morning I put garbage bag “socks” on my feet, then my wet socks, then my boots and then hiked like hell to get warm. It sucked.
Tent pole segments freeze together and require a candle flame to separate and pack up.
It was tough for me – but it was fun. I would say that you need to be real flexible. I’ll bet that ME/NH wind would be your worse enemy.
You’re going to have a great hike. I wish I could join you. Get some winter experience and you’ll be on your way!
takethisbread
08-21-2010, 17:40
I want to remind everyone that Southern Pines is leaving in Early October, not JanuAry.
October is hardly winter.
It's very early autumn.
By the first day of winter, he should be in the centrAl pArt of Virginia .
Thought this thread was a great blast from the past:D. Wondering if Southernpine85 is still planning his trip for this October:-?
Well, I've done a reasonable amount of winter hiking and it is more difficult and comes with increased risk and reduced forgiveness of mistakes. Keep this in mind as you prepare.
Do not let others keep you from your attempt, but I would not say "pay no attention". Do pay attention to what others say, then figure out how you will deal with their objections or cautions.
By all means, use your planning time to gain first-hand winter experience. MS made a great point, Winter day hiking is VERY different from Winter Backpacking.
Plan, practice, keep a very open mind, and have a blast.
bigcranky
08-21-2010, 20:08
I want to remind everyone that Southern Pines is leaving in Early October, not JanuAry.
October is hardly winter.
It's very early autumn.
By the first day of winter, he should be in the centrAl pArt of Virginia .
You know he was planning to go Southbound, right? An October 10 start would put him in the Whites around the beginning of November if all went well, and that's winter for sure. Whole different ball game than early November in Virginia...
kayak karl
08-21-2010, 20:36
since your his PR. will he have a journal??
firemountain
08-21-2010, 21:55
I thru hiked southbound from Sept '06 to Feb '07. Then on Oct 8, 2007 I climbed Katahdin again and started south. I had good weather until I got south of Stratton. During the stretch between Stratton and Gorham which I did without resupply conditions were harsh. The day I did the Bemis Moody Hall mountains it was in the mid 30's and pouring all day. The next day Baldpate was covered in ice and was terrifying. I remember inching my way down rock slabs spread eagle trying to chip away at the ice with my trekking poles. Saddleback and Old Speck were more of the same. On Full Goose I slipped off a bog bridge and broke through the ice into the bog. By the time I made it to Gorham I was happy to be alive! It had taken me an extra day more than I had planned so I had to ration food and was very hungry.
The trail can certainly be hiked in the fall and winter but you aren't going to make things easy on yourself. Wet cold alone and hungry are things you will become intimately familiar with. Once you have the proper gear skills and fitness it is all in your state of mind. If you are mentally disciplined and focused enough you can make it. Your mental health is crucial on a trip like this.
I thru hiked southbound from Sept '06 to Feb '07. Then on Oct 8, 2007 I climbed Katahdin again and started south. I had good weather until I got south of Stratton. During the stretch between Stratton and Gorham which I did without resupply conditions were harsh. The day I did the Bemis Moody Hall mountains it was in the mid 30's and pouring all day. The next day Baldpate was covered in ice and was terrifying. I remember inching my way down rock slabs spread eagle trying to chip away at the ice with my trekking poles. Saddleback and Old Speck were more of the same. On Full Goose I slipped off a bog bridge and broke through the ice into the bog. By the time I made it to Gorham I was happy to be alive! It had taken me an extra day more than I had planned so I had to ration food and was very hungry.
The trail can certainly be hiked in the fall and winter but you aren't going to make things easy on yourself. Wet cold alone and hungry are things you will become intimately familiar with. Once you have the proper gear skills and fitness it is all in your state of mind. If you are mentally disciplined and focused enough you can make it. Your mental health is crucial on a trip like this.This sounded terrifying. This is an instance where it isn't the snow you need to worry about, but the ice sending you to your doom! This was an excellent post, and just reiterates without a doubt that leaving during the winter months most likely will result in a harder hike (as if the hike wouldn't be hard enough). Only those with the mental and physical stamina and proper gear to withstand the added pressures of winter need apply.