Trail Conditions - Split from Maine's Appalachian Trail [Archive]

The Old Fhart

07-31-2008, 07:47

Kirby-"Your also going to discover that the MATC does not believe in actually maintaining their trail.

I take that best, MOST of the trail in Maine is poorly maintained."That is untrue and show complete ignorance of the situation. There are 281 miles of trail in Maine that is basically maintained by the MATC (and others) and the MATC only has 200-300 members, most of them aren't maintainers. The terrain is some of the roughest found anywhere on the trail and therefore the trail is far more primitive than other areas (like the walk through SNP). What you have is a small number of very dedicated people doing a huge amount of work so they can get criticized by hikers who do no trail work.

I have met trail crews in Maine and I make a point to thank them for the great work they do. Anyone who has been over Barren before and after has to marvel at the huge amount of work that went in on the south side of the mountain to build those rock steps and ditch to stabilize that section of trail, and I could go on and on mentioning the work they have done.

Is there work to be done? you bet there is but Rome wasn't built in a day and it takes lots of time and money to build and maintain trails, especially in Maine. What I've done, and I suggest all thru, section, and day hikers in Maine do, is donate to the MATC when you go thru or use their trails. That works far better than belittling the dedicated hard working VOLUNTEERS who do so much to maintain the trail.

emerald

07-31-2008, 07:48

You're also going to discover that the MATC does not believe in actually maintaining their trail.

Don't you just love the gratitude displayed by some hikers?

rafe

07-31-2008, 08:13

Don't you just love the gratitude displayed by some hikers?

Kirby-san seems to have picked up a bit of attitude on his trek.

jersey joe

07-31-2008, 08:14

I for one sort of enjoyed the sections of the trail that weren't maintained meticulously. Where there are some blowdowns and the trail is a bit more "wild". The smokies come to mind. When I thru hiked in 02 there were a decent amount of blowdowns in the smokies and it made for more interesting hiking.

Lone Wolf

07-31-2008, 08:17

dessertrat

07-31-2008, 09:34

I didn't notice the trail in Maine being in terrible shape last year. Is it worse this year?

weary

07-31-2008, 10:07

I didn't notice the trail in Maine being in terrible shape last year. Is it worse this year?
I haven't done a lot of AT hiking this year, but I strongly doubt it. Most of the same maintainers continue year after year. Some decade after decade. Most got a late start this year because of the heavy snow cover. And rain and mud have slowed work a bit, I'm sure.

But it simply is not true that MATC doesn't maintain its trail. Typically, maintainers spend 20,000 hours and $150,000 a year on the trail in Maine, a pretty remarkable record.

MATC has around 600 members, of whom around 100 maintain trail sections ranging in length between two miles and eight miles. Many are simply hikers who join to help the cause with their dues money from a distance.

Others help out in other ways. Like myself, which puts out a 5-time-a-year newsletter, or serve on committees that do planning and raise the needed dollars. Only about $9,000 of our $200,000 budget comes from member dues. The rest we have to beg for.

Weary www.matc.org

RITBlake

07-31-2008, 10:35

Your also going to discover that the MATC does not believe in actually maintaining their trail.

I take that best, MOST of the trail in Maine is poorly maintained.

Wahhhhhh God forbid the trail is not a paved road.

mudhead

07-31-2008, 10:42

Now if you want to talk about poor maintenence, I95 is nasty. Course, that is north of Freeport.

A-Train

07-31-2008, 10:42

I thought the Maine portion of the trail had some of the best maintainance on the trail (great signs, marked trails, blazes, etc) especially considering the rugged nature of the terrain.

I guess things can change in 5 years? :eek:

Skyline

07-31-2008, 10:48

There's truth in a lot of the posts in this thread which seem to be at odds with each other.

The AT in Maine in many places is not maintained to the same standards that much of the rest of the AT is. To someone expecting it to be so, this has got to be a disappointment.

But the trail in Maine is different in other ways.

•It is pretty far from population centers where many of the other trail maintaining clubs draw their larger memberships, from which their corps of volunteers usually come.

•The trail itself is often in remote locations and hard to get to.

•The "season" for trail maintenance is relatively short.

It seems remarkable to me that the AT in Maine gets as much TLC that it does. Especially in years like 2003 and 2008, when it never seems to stop raining and/or the snowmelt is near historic in quantity.

woodsy

07-31-2008, 10:54

Don't you just love the gratitude displayed by some hikers?
Yeah really, whine about trail conditions but probably do nothing to make it better.:rolleyes:
Me?, donating member of MATC.
And do minor trail Maint when out, throw smaller trees and branches off the trail, place rocks/deadfall in muck holes etc...

Alligator

07-31-2008, 10:56

Lone Wolf

07-31-2008, 10:58

some of the worst maintenance i've seen is in an area that has one of the richest clubs. Shenandoah Park. nettles and briars are always overgrown in the trail. i ain't whinin', just sayin'

Sly

07-31-2008, 11:04

Gee, Kirby is starting to sound like MS. I thought Maine rocked.

Pedaling Fool

07-31-2008, 11:05

There's truth in a lot of the posts in this thread which seem to be at odds with each other.

The AT in Maine in many places is not maintained to the same standards that much of the rest of the AT is. To someone expecting it to be so, this has got to be a disappointment.

But the trail in Maine is different in other ways.

•It is pretty far from population centers where many of the other trail maintaing clubs draw their larger memberships, from which their corps of volunteers usually come.

•The trail itself is often in remote locations and hard to get to.

•The "season" for trail maintenance is relatively short.

It seems remarkable to me that the AT in Maine gets as much TLC that it does. Especially in years like 2003 and 2008, when it never seems to stop raining and/or the snowmelt is near historic in quantity.
I was going to say something, but it'd probably look something like this. It does suck what happend to Moody mountain. I specifically remember thinking of all the incredible work that MATC did to make that tough little mountain an enjoyable climb.

DavidNH

07-31-2008, 11:12

I was going to post here in support of the MATC. But reading through the thread.. Old Fahrt said it well and better than I could. He is absolutely correct. 281 miles, few folks to maintain it, far from population centers, very rugged terrain etc etc.

If you want smooth tread way, with little mud, and never be very far from a town..then stayin the southern Appalachians.

DavidNH

Cookerhiker

07-31-2008, 11:13

some of the worst maintenance i've seen is in an area that has one of the richest clubs. Shenandoah Park. nettles and briars are always overgrown in the trail. i ain't whinin', just sayin'

Thanks alot Wolf. I spent 2 full days in early June and another 2 full days in mid-July clearing out my SNP section to keep those nettles & briars in check and received thanks from everyone I met. The work was hot & tiring and my having a bad shoulder certainly didn't help when hoisting the weedwacker.

I also don't understand why you regard PATC as "one of the richest clubs." We have over 1,000 total trail miles (AT, Tuscarora, and others) to maintain, far more than some larger clubs. And we're not swimming in money.

You can make your points about Maine without denigrating other clubs and trail sections (and their maintainers).

Sly

07-31-2008, 11:18

Let's face it, sections of trail are normally only maintained twice a year. If you happen to hike them before the maintainer gets there, it may be overgrown. Anyone that complains, really needs to start volunteering.

weary

07-31-2008, 11:20

I haven't done the whole trail in Maine. On one trip though on Memorial Day I remember running into two maintainers. One was Dave Field. He told us how he and his sibling (sister?) had helped built one of the bat floor shelters so many years ago. He also talked about how he trucked around his chainsaw, having to stash it to make things easier. Great guy. The other fellow had hiked in from who knows where, it was miles in I forget exactly where it was. I do recollect it took him some time just to get to his section. He was moving stones by himself. I salute both gentleman for giving up their holiday weekend for maintenance.
Dave has been maintaining the same section for more than 50 years, while also serving on the MATC Board of Directors and a couple of terms as President of the Appalachian Trail Conservancy. In addition to maintaining his section, he's also MATC's Overseer of Lands.

He lead the effort to relocate two-thirds of the Maine trail from the valleys to the ridgelines in the 70s and 80s. This spring he's building a new campsite and installing a new privy on his section. I suspect no one anywhere has provided more dedicated service to the trail than Dave has.

Weary

Sly

07-31-2008, 11:20

Hmmm trying to figure out why this was moved from MAT to "Thru-hiker specific topics Q&A's" Seems like a statement or opinion.

Cookerhiker

07-31-2008, 11:21

When hiking all of Maine in '05, I thought the trail was well maintained; in fact, it exceeded my expectations in the 100 mile wilderness. I even noted such in my journal one day (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=117259). This was even before I was aware of how few maintaining members MATC has. A while back on another thread, Weary mentioned the membership number and I was even more impressed at how so few members could handle 280 miles, much of it very remote.

Cookerhiker

07-31-2008, 11:22

.... Anyone that complains, really needs to start volunteering.

Amen!

.... I suspect no one anywhere has provided more dedicated service to the trail than Dave has.

Weary

Double amen!

A-Train

07-31-2008, 11:28

rafe

07-31-2008, 11:29

Gee, Kirby is starting to sound like MS. I thought Maine rocked.

I'll second that emotion. I recall a new-ish relo near Bemis Mtn. that was still a bit raw and ugly, no big deal. Maine was AOK by me. All of it.

Lone Wolf

07-31-2008, 11:37

Thanks alot Wolf. I spent 2 full days in early June and another 2 full days in mid-July clearing out my SNP section to keep those nettles & briars in check and received thanks from everyone I met. The work was hot & tiring and my having a bad shoulder certainly didn't help when hoisting the weedwacker.

I also don't understand why you regard PATC as "one of the richest clubs." We have over 1,000 total trail miles (AT, Tuscarora, and others) to maintain, far more than some larger clubs. And we're not swimming in money.

You can make your points about Maine without denigrating other clubs and trail sections (and their maintainers).

then it sounds like the PATC has bitten off more than it can chew. there swanky shelters sure are nice. and cabins too. besides, like i said, it's just an observation. i've hiked through there a dozen times. it's always overgrown. just the truth. not lookin' for a fight

rafe

07-31-2008, 11:40

I was pretty amazed as a Ridgerunner to find out how long folks wait to get a section (usually a mile or two) to maintain, and then they never seemed to come out and maintain when it was needed.

I spent a lot of the summer clipping bushes (and munching on blueberries :)) because I was there and they weren't. The trail in Jersey gets quite overgrown on the ridges by mid-summer.

My impression is that the maintenance is uneven. Depends on the trail club, and even with a trail club, there's not much consistency. Not having done any of this work, I'm in no position to complain. On the contrary, I'm immensely thankful for those who do.

RITBlake

07-31-2008, 11:41

Gee, Kirby is starting to sound like MS. I thought Maine rocked.

Yah I was just thinking the same thing.

minnesotasmith

07-31-2008, 12:45

Let's face it, sections of trail are normally only maintained twice a year. If you happen to hike them before the maintainer gets there, it may be overgrown. .

The solution to THAT is to cut back the brush far enough that it doesn't grow back before it gets cut back again. The longer between times, the farther back it needs to be cut.

Anyone that complains, really needs to start volunteering

Here we go again with that BS red herring that was disproved long ago. A hiker does NOT have to either be a trail maintainer or turn his eyes and brain off about honestly assessing what he sees as he goes through his hike. That's like saying you have to be a doctor yourself to have a right to get mad about a quack screwing up and killing your family member, be a politician yourself to dislike crooked officeholders, be a highway repair guy to be able to discern when there're 5 guys by the side of the road and one tool (that no one has touched all day). Uh, no.

Some help the trail community in other, different but direct ways. Some are part of maintaining the whole society so that trail maintainers can live and function. (Sgt. Rock fighting against national enemies in a foreign land so they aren't here is one example; my helping there even be a modern economy here through working in the oil patch is another.) Then, some hikers help out the Trail community only in subtle ways few or none here will ever see. Lastly, some hikers will be only hikers, due to different lives (than some others who can do more for the Trail more directly) and nothing more.

They all have as much right to be on the Trail, and as much right to be deemed part of the Trail community, mentally as well as physically, as anyone else.

==================================================

Oh, and yeah, the Trail in Maine is not just undermaintained in parts, it's often incomplete and occasionally poorly designed. I'm kind of with Earl Shafer on this one, and not with the MATC officer that insulted him as not being a "real" hiker.

Jack Tarlin

07-31-2008, 12:55

Nevertheless, Smith, it's curious that the people who are the sharpest when it comes to carping about Trail Maintenance invariably are people who haven't done any. :rolleyes:

woodsy

07-31-2008, 12:56

MS: Oh, and yeah, the Trail in Maine is not just undermaintained in parts, it's often incomplete and occasionally poorly designed.Then stay away if you don't like it!

the goat

07-31-2008, 13:05

Anyone that complains, really needs to start volunteering

Here we go again with that BS red herring that was disproved long ago. A hiker does NOT have to either be a trail maintainer or turn his eyes and brain off about honestly assessing what he sees as he goes through his hike. That's like saying you have to be a doctor yourself to have a right to get mad about a quack screwing up and killing your family member, be a politician yourself to dislike crooked officeholders, be a highway repair guy to be able to discern when there're 5 guys by the side of the road and one tool (that no one has touched all day). Uh, no.

it's just like that.....except doctors, politicians and road workers are all paid money for their services.

poor analogy.

Blissful

07-31-2008, 13:10

I thought all in all the trail in Maine was in excellent. Liked the signs very much also. I mean there was some tough stuff via the terrain and a few sinking bog bridges and maybe a few places with limited blazing (hnece the need for a map which hikers should carry anyway) but that's the trail. My thanks to MATC for all they do and for maintainers in general.

But my hat really goes off to the PATC in VA, MD and lower PA. Great trail and shelter areas.

minnesotasmith

07-31-2008, 13:14

it's just like that.....except doctors, politicians and road workers are all paid money for their services.

poor analogy.

All of them made commitments to do something. I think that it's fair to say that some places on the AT, there are commitments made that haven't been followed through on...

RITBlake

07-31-2008, 13:15

it's just like that.....except doctors, politicians and road workers are all paid money for their services.

poor analogy.

Yes terrible analogy.

It takes some pretty serious nerve to complain about the condition of a trail that is 100% free and where maintenance of said free trail is voluntary.

MS = Fail

Old Hillwalker

07-31-2008, 13:21

I walked the Maine AT section from Katahdin Summit to Monson sarting July 15th to the 22nd this summer. As an AT maintainer in Western NH I have no complaints about what I walked in Maine. As a matter of fact, the rockwork on Whitecap and Barren was absolutely stunning. Yes, there are parts were the trail is a bit brushy, but hey, no ticks.

Just north of Fourth Mountain I met maintainers Charles Reitz Sr. and Lloyd Llewellin Dickson who had set up a small base camp and were working on that section of trail. Mr. Dickson is 80 and carries a 55 pound pack. Must have chatted with these two gentlemen for thirty minutes or more. They had a nice little Stihl chainsaw with them.

I also passed Kirby near that point. Knew him from attending the last Trashgiving in Glencliff. He is young and knows not. Didn't we all;)?

minnesotasmith

07-31-2008, 13:21

Nevertheless, Smith, it's curious that the people who are the sharpest when it comes to carping about Trail Maintenance invariably are people who haven't done any. :rolleyes:

Some of us don't live within even 1,000 miles of the AT. I've been east of the Mississippi River all of twice in the last 16 months, both on hurried work-type trips with no time for detours. And, before that, I had no money between finishing the AT and moving out West to go back to work to afford trips back to to where the AT runs. I do what I can for the AT community from here. I'm sorry if that isn't enough for some of the holier-than-thous here to think I am entitled to apply my brain to anything but getting their cars gasoline.

RITBlake

07-31-2008, 13:23

Some of us don't live within even 1,000 miles of the AT. I've been east of the Mississippi River all of twice in the last 16 months, both on hurried work-type trips with no time for detours. And, before that, I had no money between finishing the AT and moving out West to go back to work to afford trips back to to where the AT runs. I do what I can for the AT community from here. I'm sorry if that isn't enough for some of the holier-than-thous here to think I am entitled to apply my brain to anything but getting their cars gasoline.

Bitching about trail conditions and trail maintenance standards from a 1,000 miles away is hardly 'doing something for the AT community'

RITBlake

07-31-2008, 13:25

I'm sorry if that isn't enough for some of the holier-than-thous here to think I am entitled to apply my brain to anything but getting their cars gasoline.

I only buy Middle East certified gasoline.

A-Train

07-31-2008, 13:28

Some of us don't live within even 1,000 miles of the AT. I've been east of the Mississippi River all of twice in the last 16 months, both on hurried work-type trips with no time for detours. And, before that, I had no money between finishing the AT and moving out West to go back to work to afford trips back to to where the AT runs. I do what I can for the AT community from here. I'm sorry if that isn't enough for some of the holier-than-thous here to think I am entitled to apply my brain to anything but getting their cars gasoline.

Ok, well, start with a week or two of trailwork before your next thru-hike, or take a week off when you get to Scott Farm or HF.

Alligator

07-31-2008, 13:31

Hmmm trying to figure out why this was moved from MAT to "Thru-hiker specific topics Q&A's" Seems like a statement or opinion.Hikerranky actually split it from a thread in Thru-hiker specific topics Q & A. I'll work off your suggestion though and move it to Trail Concerns.

Sly

07-31-2008, 13:32

The trail community and TRAIL are two different things entirely and not mutually inclusive. Trail (should be hiker) services and providers, trail magic etc don't necessarily help the TRAIL. Some people just don't get it, and most likely never will.

weary

07-31-2008, 13:40

The solution to THAT is to cut back the brush far enough that it doesn't grow back before it gets cut back again. The longer between times, the farther back it needs to be cut.
.....

Oh, and yeah, the Trail in Maine is not just undermaintained in parts, it's often incomplete and occasionally poorly designed. I'm kind of with Earl Shafer on this one, and not with the MATC officer that insulted him as not being a "real" hiker.
Not everyone does it, but the recommendations generally urge maintainers to cut branches back to the trunks of trail-side trees.

I sometimes didn't because I didn't want the trail to become unnaturally wide. Also it's sometimes important to maintain shade to curtail the growth of sun-loving plants.

Also, I don't know any sections in Maine that are incomplete. It is a continuous trail. But I agree that a few sections are poorly designed. The reason? MATC tried to work out deals with the large landowners and thus keep the NPS out of the state. I thought that was a mistake and it proved to be eventually, since few if any significant agreements were negotiated.

But when the MATC negotiations were abandoned and the NPS was invited in, we faced a Congressional imposed deadline. We wanted the trail to follow the ridgelines. In the rush to meet the deadline, some of the relocations from the valleys to the summits were not well thought out. Overall, we managed to create a better and more challenging and scenic hiking experience. But some of the details got shortchanged.

The worst of these mistakes are being gradually corrected. But it will be awhile before the work is completed.

Weary

minnesotasmith

07-31-2008, 13:43

I only buy Middle East certified gasoline.

Gasoline, like all petroleum, is fungible. That is, it's an interconnected worldwide market. What you buy and use, what I buy and use (or help produce), what anyone buys/uses/produces, are all related to each other.

mudhead

07-31-2008, 13:46

Thank you to all that clear the path, be it weeds or blowdowns.

Jack Tarlin

07-31-2008, 13:51

Good post by Weary.

The only thing I'd add to it is that the allegedly incomplete, unsatisfactory, or "uncorrected" parts of the Trail could get improved or fixed a lot faster if more folks took the time to actually help Trail maintenance crews instead of merely criticizing their performance.

Actions generally speak louder than words.

DavidNH

07-31-2008, 13:55

some of the worst maintenance i've seen is in an area that has one of the richest clubs. Shenandoah Park. nettles and briars are always overgrown in the trail. i ain't whinin', just sayin'

WOW.. it takes some serious reach to complain about the PATC. The Potmac Appalachian Trail Club maintains the trail in Shanendohah National park up through a piece of PA.

as far as Shanendoah National Park goes.. the trail there is INCREDIBLY nice. gradual. graded absolutely gorgeous for the most part. Maybe there was a small section overgrown but not much.

Also this club's section had the nicest shelters BY FAR.

Also in SNP, there were some of the finest camp sites anywhere.

All in all, I think the PATC does a pretty damn fine job!

DavidNH

Monkeywrench

07-31-2008, 13:56

My impression is that the maintenance is uneven. Depends on the trail club, and even with a trail club, there's not much consistency. Not having done any of this work, I'm in no position to complain. On the contrary, I'm immensely thankful for those who do.

I am a member of the Connecticut Section of the GMC, and have been for many years. We maintain 12 miles of the LT/AT in southern Vermont, from the top of Glastenbury Mountain to the crossing of the Arlington-West Wardsboro (Kelly Stand) Rd. This section of trail also includes 3 shelters; Kid Gore, Caughnawaga, and Story Spring. Most years we make three weekend trips to do maintenance; one the weekend before Memorial Day, one in late July or early August, and one in early October. There are also sometimes extra weekends for special projects; last year a half-dozen people spent one weekend hauling in and assembling the new picnic table which is in front of Kid Gore Shelter.A number of years ago we arrived at Kid Gore for our spring maintenance work and discovered that over the winter somebody had smashed up the table inside the shelter and used it to build a fire on the shelter floor; that required another trip in to replace the destroyed table.

The entire section (chapter) membership is usually somewhere around 125 135, and turnout for a weekend of work can be anywhere from 3 or 4 people to 7 or 8 if we're really lucky. The southern end of trail we are responsible for, at Glastenbury Mountain, is far from the nearest trail-head. We usually bushwhack in from forest service roads down in the valley to the east to get quicker access. This makes logistics of hauling in tools and supplies a bit tougher than one might assume at first blush.

Traditionally the first spring trip concentrates on the higher elevations near Glastenbury Mountain so we can clear any big blow-downs that occurred over the winter and make sure the trail is open for early-season hikers, but for the last couple of years the forest service roads down in the valley that we use to get near the area have still been gated closed until later in the spring.

This is all neither bragging nor complaining, just pointing out that trail maintenance is a lot of work, carried out by volunteers who take on the job because they care about the trail and about hiking, and the job is sometimes more involved than it looks to a hiker who passes by and sees us cutting brush, painting blazes, or removing blow-downs. There is work involved just in getting ourselves and our tools and our supplies there to begin with.

earlyriser26

07-31-2008, 14:00

I worked a section of the trail in Maine many years ago and all I know is that my section from Pleasant pond mt to Joe's hole was always well maintained. Not easy since I was doing it from Cleveland (but gas was cheaper then). I've also hiked most of the state and think it is well maintained. Yes, it is more rugged in Maine, but that is not a maintanance issue and is part of the states charm. Also, I've never known anyone from Maine to understand the term "switchback". Maybe its near sissy in the dictionary?

Lone Wolf

07-31-2008, 14:01

WOW.. it takes some serious reach to complain about the PATC. The Potmac Appalachian Trail Club maintains the trail in Shanendohah National park up through a piece of PA.

no where did i complain. i was stating a fact

Mags

07-31-2008, 14:03

Here we go again with that BS red herring that was disproved long ago.

It is not a red herring. Those who kvetch about something should step up to the plate and do something.

Far easier to complain and pontificate than to actually work.

Some of us don't live within even 1,000 miles of the AT

I don't as well. Which I've done trail work/restoration work locally. EVERY area needs some help.

Finally, I thought the maintenance was just fine in Maine. A more wild experience for the person who wants an outdoor journey. If I wanted a perfectly maintained path, I'd stick to bike trails.

Maine is (fairly) wild. And the trail reflects that fact.

the goat

07-31-2008, 14:06

mudhead

07-31-2008, 14:09

Also, I've never known anyone from Maine to understand the term "switchback". Maybe its near sissy in the dictionary?

Switchback is what you got when you were naughty. The magazine down the pants trick didn't fly, either.

emerald

07-31-2008, 14:14

i've hiked through there a dozen times. it's always overgrown.

Maybe it was per your standards when you were there those dozen times, but doesn't the time you spent there represent a small amount of time? Also, your observations may have more to do with the type of vegetation present than the diligence of maintainers. I expect your opinion of the A.T. there didn't change it any.

In my experience, as a hiker, it's better to accept trail conditions as they are rather than evaluate them. When hikers begin to evaluate maintenance and maintainers as they hike, they hike two trails simultaneously, the real trail and an ideal trail that exists only in their imaginations. When they engage their minds in this way, they expend more energy, much of it directed at maintainers and their perceived shortcomings rather than hiking and are apt to have less satisfactory experiences.

Hikers complaining to themselves and comparing what they might do had they unlimited time and resources to what someone else has done or may do the next day with limited time and resources is not a valid comparison. I try to avoid falling into this trap unless it's work with which I am involved where my evaulation is required.

I admit sometimes it's hard for me since I'm a person who tries to uphold high standards and likes to think he knows something about such things. While reading this thread and composing this post, it occurred to me that my expectations are no doubt different when I hike off-trail and these experiences are often more satisfying, but it's true more heavily-trafficked trails need more design work, construction, funding, manpower and maintenance.:-?

StarLyte

07-31-2008, 14:15

.....the people who are the sharpest when it comes to carping about Trail Maintenance invariably are people who haven't done any. :rolleyes:

Well said Jack.

The most humble people I've ever met are those that have volunteered. In any effort, in any environment.

I bow to Trail maintainers as I have been there to witness the work.

It's not just a walk on the Trail with a set of pruners, it's sometimes an engineering project !

Perhaps the Maine trail maintainers are trying to keep this part of the Trail as close to WILDERNESS as possible ? I certainly appreciate that.

KUDOS to Weary, LW & Cookerhikers' posts !

In any event Kirby, this is an awareness thread for volunteerism! Thanks for posting. :sun

minnesotasmith

07-31-2008, 14:26

. Some people just don't get it, and most likely never will.

http://www.plumbingstore.com/images/fr-vanitymirrors-petiteboutique.jpg

Lone Wolf

07-31-2008, 14:28

Maybe it was per your standards when you were there those dozen times, but doesn't the time you spent there represent a small amount of time? Also, your observations may have more to do with the type of vegetation present than the diligence of maintainers. I expect your opinion of the A.T. there didn't change it any.

In my experience, as a hiker, it's better to accept trail conditions as they are rather than evaluate them. When hikers begin to evaluate maintenance and maintainers as they hike, they hike two trails simultaneously, the real trail and an ideal trail that exists only in their imaginations. When they engage their minds in this way, they expend more energy, much of it directed at maintainers and their perceived shortcomings rather than hiking and are apt to have a less satisfactory experience.

Hikers complaining to themselves and comparing what they might do had they unlimited time and resources to what someone else has done or may do the next day with limited time and resources is not a valid comparison. I try to avoid falling into this trap unless it's work with which I am involved where my evaulation is required.

I admit sometimes it's hard for me since I'm a person who tries to uphold high standards and likes to think he knows something about such things. While reading this thread and composing this post, it occurred to me that my expectations are no doubt different when I hike off-trail and these experiences are often more satisfying.:-?
not complaining. just saying it's overgrown every time i hike it. just stating a fact. i'll hike it again

Kirby

07-31-2008, 14:31

Yeah really, whine about trail conditions but probably do nothing to make it better.:rolleyes:
Me?, donating member of MATC.
And do minor trail Maint when out, throw smaller trees and branches off the trail, place rocks/deadfall in muck holes etc...

I've been out with Tom Gorill(sp?) a few times to help build privies on the Grafton Loop Trail. I emailed the MATC volunteer coordinator to let him know I want to help, and he put me in touch with Tom. I volunteered to help maintain the AT, but Tom's big task right now is building privies on the Grafton Loop Trail. Tom oversees the Baldpate section and lives near me, so I am able to get a ride with him.

A big problem, according to an MATC ridge runner, is that the MATC is an aging club. I think the MATC needs to start some youth outreach programs, specifically targetting middle schools along the trail corridor.

That reminds me, I need to email them about that...

Kirby

Pedaling Fool

07-31-2008, 14:34

minnesotasmith

07-31-2008, 14:37

Who's holier-than-thou;)
Anyone who thinks that some hikers are entitled to have opinions about the Trail, and some (even if they've seen far more of the Trail) are not.

TJ aka Teej

07-31-2008, 14:44

MATC VOLUNTEER OPPORTUNITIES:
http://www.matc.org/volntrop.htm
MATC 2008 MAINE TRAIL CREW Activity Schedule:
http://www.matc.org/actvschd.htm
MATC Corridor Monitoring Program:
http://www.matc.org/corridor.htm
Make a Donation to Maine Appalachian Trail Club:
https://secure.groundspring.org/dn/index.php?aid=9190
Baxter State Park Volunteer program:
http://www.baxterstateparkauthority.com/volunteers/index.html
:welcome

rafe

07-31-2008, 14:44

I think you're missing the point, MS. Your opinion isn't the issue here. But it's unseemly and ungrateful to complain about the trail's condition, when you know (or should know) that it's entirely the result of volunteer labor (in fact, vast quantities thereof...) -- and when you haven't done any of that labor yourself. Your own (well paid) labor in the Oil Fields simply doesn't count -- it's utterly irrelevant.

minnesotasmith

07-31-2008, 14:49

Which I've done trail work/restoration work locally. EVERY area needs some help.

And, you got to the local trail to do trail maintenance how?

KG4FAM

07-31-2008, 14:58

I just hiked from Katahdin to Saddleback with my dad and finished up last week. I would say that the conditions in Maine are much better than when I was up there in 2006. I was always waiting for the floating bog bridges, but a lot of them have been replaced. There were some places where the fir trees on top of the mountains were a bit thick and needed trimming back, but I also saw a lot of places where they were freshly cut back. There were no more blowdowns than you would see anywhere else. Even the water had less tannin than last time. I had a blast.

Maine is tough, that is just what it is. There are some amazing places up there and you have to work hard to get to them.

Pedaling Fool

07-31-2008, 14:59

And, you got to the local trail to do trail maintenance how?
OK, thank you MS for providing us with our daily gasoline needs. I guess I need to write a prayer now....

Skyline

07-31-2008, 15:01

Skyline

07-31-2008, 15:14

WOW.. it takes some serious reach to complain about the PATC. The Potmac Appalachian Trail Club maintains the trail in Shanendohah National park up through a piece of PA.

as far as Shanendoah National Park goes.. the trail there is INCREDIBLY nice. gradual. graded absolutely gorgeous for the most part. Maybe there was a small section overgrown but not much.

Also this club's section had the nicest shelters BY FAR.

Also in SNP, there were some of the finest camp sites anywhere.

All in all, I think the PATC does a pretty damn fine job!

DavidNH

Thanks David, from one of PATC's volunteers.

I have no doubt Lone Wolf is sincere in his appraisal of trail conditions in SNP. He certainly is not a whiner. But I have to wonder if he's not letting a few miles here and there with nettles color his assessment of conditions in the entire Park.

My experience here in SNP, where I live and play, has been that trail conditions are usually equal to or better than most of the rest of the AT. That doesn't mean there are not lapses of maintenance here. Each volunteer gets out to his or her section when they are able to. Along the 105+ miles of AT in SNP, I'd be hard pressed to find more than 20% of that not maintained to a high standard on any typical given day. The exception might be after winter before most maintainers get to their sections, or after a big wind or ice storm.

But there could be that 20% (probably less), and that could be affecting Wolf's recollections.

I do hear complaints from a significant minority hiking through SNP that there are too many rules/regs here, that Skyline Drive is too close to the AT, and (gasp!) there are lodges and restaurants too close to the AT. But this is just the way it is, has been, and not a reflection on trail maintenance.

Almost all of the volunteers PATC has who toil in SNP drive from the DC area or further away to get here. No doubt high fuel costs and economic hard times are affecting the frequency that some volunteers get to SNP this year to do routine maintenance.

warren doyle

07-31-2008, 15:15

I like hiking the trail in Maine. Doing most of the Mahoosucs tomorrow (Grafton Notch to Gentian Pond and out).
I have nothing but praise for the MATC (except when they moved the trail prematurely out of Monson).
Maybe some people should stick to hiking the Skyline Drive and Virginia Creeper Trail.

dessertrat

07-31-2008, 15:20

minnesotasmith

07-31-2008, 15:32

For folks who like hiking, why do so many people here seem unhappy and picky? Seems to me that people who go for days without bathing and don't mind *****ting in the woods shouldn't complain about whether someone has recently weed-whacked the trail or not.

Anyone who has had Lyme Disease doesn't want to get it again, I'd bet. If there were no brush on the AT in need of cutting back during nonsnow months, what % of current Lyme victims on the AT do you think the #s would fall to?

dessertrat

07-31-2008, 15:39

Anyone who has had Lyme Disease doesn't want to get it again, I'd bet. If there were no brush on the AT in need of cutting back during nonsnow months, what % of current Lyme victims on the AT do you think the #s would fall to?

I use permethrin on my clothes and wear long pants during prime tick season, along with some deet as an extra precaution, and so should others who are concerned about ticks. Besides, the trail is often already well maintained in areas of highest Lyme risk. It is possible to get Lyme in Maine, but it is not the most endemic area, by far.

Sly

07-31-2008, 15:43

Wow next thing you know some will be blaming the ATC and clubs for getting Lyme. Oh someone just did.

mudhead

07-31-2008, 15:48

And, you got to the local trail to do trail maintenance how?

I am a complete horse's ahss for reading this.

Mags

07-31-2008, 15:48

And, you got to the local trail to do trail maintenance how?

By bike on a few occasions actually (and bus, too) :)

But what does this have to do with your lack of volunteering?

jesse

07-31-2008, 15:49

My hats off to all the maintainers. No complaints here.

I have only hiked in Georgia. I kinda like the BMT, Coosa Backcountry, the trails in the Cohutta, that aren't maintained to the level the AT is.

The best trail anywhere is the one not littered with trash. I don't care about brush and blowdowns as long as it clean.

the goat

07-31-2008, 15:52

if i get lyme disease, i will sue the atc and the maintenance club for not being more generous with their pruning shears.

Bearpaw88

07-31-2008, 15:55

As many of the great posts have mentioned- trail maintenance is a long and hard process done by volunteers who love the trail. There is no such thing as a club that doesn't believe in maintenance.

I volunteer with the Ice Age Trail; which in terms of layout is probably where the AT was 30 years ago. There are counties in WI where there are only 2 volunteers to maintain 45 miles of trail. It is impossible for these numbers to keep the trail well groomed.

To sum it up- go easy on the maintenace clubs. They are volunteers not superheros.

As others suggested if you have a problem with the trail SIGN UP, VOLUNTEER, and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Jack Tarlin

07-31-2008, 15:57

Smith, you're missing the point: If there are places where brush needs cutting, there are all sorts of things you can do about it:

Um, for starters, you can cut some brush.

Failing that, contribute what you can to the local Trail Clubs, all of whom could use cash donations that could be used for hand tools, work gloves, chain saws and saw maintenance, etc. Or even consider a cash grant to a Trail club (especially one of the smaller ones) that volunteers could use to fuel their vehicles. You may not be aware of it, Smith, but many Trail volunteers live quite a distance from the Trail and the number of their maintenance trips in recent times could absolutely be affected by the greatly increased cost of keeping a vehicle on the road.

So help thes folks out. You're going to be hiking again next year; presumably, you're going to be out on the Trail for at least six months and probably longer. Why not plan on taking some of that time to do some Trail work? Plenty of folks (tho not enough) take time out from their hikes every year to work on the Trail, Smith. And there's no reason why you can't do likewise.

But blaming Lyme disease on poor Trail maintenance is a mighty long stretch. If there are sections of the Trail where you feel that the maintenance is spotty enough to merit complaining about, then your options are simple: Help out the folks who maintain these sections that seem to trouble you so, or better yet, try and reserve a few days out of your 6-month vacation to work on the Trail itself.

I also think this might give you a different perspective on Trail work and the volunteers who cheerfully provide it. :D

Mags

07-31-2008, 15:59

As others suggested if you have a problem with the trail SIGN UP, VOLUNTEER, and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

It is easier to complain than to do something.

I'm old fashion. If you don't like something, work to fix it. Then again, I come from a family that that likes to back our words with action. :sun

jesse

07-31-2008, 16:04

Amazing, Kirby complains and people start bitching at MS. I was afraid that WB had lost its soul. Its good to see things back to normal.

Mags

07-31-2008, 16:07

Amazing, Kirby complains and people start bitching at MS. I was afraid that WB had lost its soul. Its good to see things back to normal.

Well MS was his usual charming self... :D

(Also, Kirby complained, then became proactive. Good on him! )

woodsy

07-31-2008, 16:08

Amazing, Kirby complains and people start bitching at MS. I was afraid that WB had lost its soul. Its good to see things back to normal.
Yeah but MS has a long history of whining about trail conditions spanning from GA-ME. He deserves the flak.;)

Jack Tarlin

07-31-2008, 16:09

Jesse, you've missed the point. Smith's complaints about the shape of the Trail in Maine were as baseless as Kirby's.

And you also seem to overlook who's doing the "bitching" and complaining on this thread, too. :D

minnesotasmith

07-31-2008, 16:11

I'm not unclear what it entails. And, again, you're dodging that 1) there are ways of helping the totality of the AT without being a trail maintainer, and 2) that brains of non TMs might just work as well as TMs. Imagine that...

You were present when a package I sent to a major TMs house arrived. As many hikers as the laudable (not being sarcastic here) Bob Peoples gets to do TM, the odds are pretty fair that I fed some people on the days they did TM with food I worked to buy and ship. If you won't accept that my holding a job that actually helps (instead of hindering, stealing from, being completely make-work, or oppressing people, as so many jobs are now) make for a country in which people are able to worry (beyond just survival circa-pre-1800s) about things like the AT, and can get to the thing to work on it, perhaps you'll accept that was a contribution.

Re the "unseemliness" of blunt appraisal of what I've seen of trail design and maintenance on the AT: it has always seemed unseemly to many to point out that the Emperor has no clothes, but it's honest and accurate, too. I guess it comes down to whether seemliness, or timely honesty and accuracy, is a person's higher value.

Lastly, I wonder if anyone has ever charted a comparison of the relative downward slopes of AT thruhikers and trail maintainers. It'd be interesting to see which one the graphs predict will approach zero first...

Jack Tarlin

07-31-2008, 16:19

Smith: This isn't worth arguing about. Yes, I'm aware that you sent gifts to hiker hostels and facilities, and the framed poetry, boot dryers, and pancake mix were nice additions to these places. This was a very nice thing for you to do.

But we're not talking about expanding hiker's knowledge of poetry, or drying their tootsies, or feeding them breakfast. We're talking specifically about Trail maintenance......and some very few of us here are complaining about Trail maintenance.

And all that's happened is that several folks have pointed out that if you are truly troubled about Trail conditions, then there are some very concrete and useful things you can do, if you choose.

In my experience, people that complain about Trail conditions and maintenance without actually doing something concrete about this aren't really concerned that the Trail is in poor shape or that these poor conditions might inconvenience other hikers.

Instead, they are concerned because these alleged poor conditions have inconvenienced THEM. And this is the heart of their concern, period.

Feel free to prove me wrong on this. I expect to be working on the Hardcore project with Bob Peoples next year after Trail Days. It will be the ninth time that some of us have helped Bob with this. I look forward to seeing you there.

Mags

07-31-2008, 16:23

It will be the ninth time that some of us have helped Bob with this. I look forward to seeing you there.

Excellent idea Jack!

If you can't make it to TN, perhaps some local trail org in the Grand Junction area could use some help, too?

Many of us can't get out to the AT. I like to do "cross karma" trail work by working locally if I can. They usually feed you well and have beer, too! :sun

Alligator

07-31-2008, 16:25

The trail is a hand-crafted gift, crafted from the sweat of thousands upon thousands of hours of volunteer maintainers. How you receive that gift is a testament of your character.

emerald

07-31-2008, 16:27

Alligator just posted the perfect closing post. I regret I added another, but I will let stand what I posted with minor changes.

There would be no A.T. without maintainers and it's not the polarizing hikers vs. Mainetainers issue MS seems to love. Many hike and maintain too.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the majority of 2000 milers who have section-hiked the A.T. were A.T. club members. We all know the 1st section-hiker and the 1st thru-hiker were deeply involved with it.

the goat

07-31-2008, 16:30

The trail is a hand-crafted gift, crafted from the sweat of thousands upon thousands of hours of volunteer maintainers. How you receive that gift is a testament of your character.

very well put.

RITBlake

07-31-2008, 16:33

If you won't accept that my holding a job that actually helps (instead of hindering, stealing from, being completely make-work, or oppressing people, as so many jobs are now) make for a country in which people are able to worry (beyond just survival circa-pre-1800s) about things like the AT, and can get to the thing to work on it, perhaps you'll accept that was a contribution.

You are nothing but a cog in the energy wheel. You are easily placed, don't give yourself too much credit.

minnesotasmith

07-31-2008, 16:43

You are nothing but a cog in the energy wheel. You are easily placed, don't give yourself too much credit.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/02/news/economy/oil_jobs/index.htm

http://techrepublic-cnet.com.com/Image+problems+lead+to+worker+shortage+in+oil+indu stry/2100-11395_3-5967211.html

http://www.txcn.com/sharedcontent/dws/txcn/houston/stories/khou080714_tnt_oilworkers.55b74aa3.html

http://galvestondailynews.com/story.lasso?ewcd=85913414d94bb063

jesse

07-31-2008, 16:48

The trail is a hand-crafted gift, crafted from the sweat of thousands upon thousands of hours of volunteer maintainers. How you receive that gift is a testament of your character.

yep..................

Sly

07-31-2008, 17:00

Smith:

Feel free to prove me wrong on this. I expect to be working on the Hardcore project with Bob Peoples next year after Trail Days. It will be the ninth time that some of us have helped Bob with this. I look forward to seeing you there.

He can also helps out as he passes through as Bob is always working on something. For 8 hours work you get a hiker/maintainer patch.

RITBlake

07-31-2008, 17:02

http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/02/news/economy/oil_jobs/index.htm

http://techrepublic-cnet.com.com/Image+problems+lead+to+worker+shortage+in+oil+indu stry/2100-11395_3-5967211.html

http://www.txcn.com/sharedcontent/dws/txcn/houston/stories/khou080714_tnt_oilworkers.55b74aa3.html

http://galvestondailynews.com/story.lasso?ewcd=85913414d94bb063

lol, typical move from the MS playbook. A laundry list of links that links that no one cares enough to click on.

minnesotasmith

07-31-2008, 17:15

lol, typical move from the MS playbook. A laundry list of links that links that no one cares enough to click on.

Guess that leaves you out. (FWIW, they blow your position out of the water.)

minnesotasmith

07-31-2008, 17:20

Lastly, I wonder if anyone has ever charted a comparison of the relative downward slopes of AT thruhikers and trail maintainers. It'd be interesting to see which one the graphs predict will approach zero first...

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.851143/

Using the ATC's #s for thruhike starts (adding up NOBOs, SOBOs, and flipfloppers):
2001 = 2678
2002 = 2187
2003 = 2074
2004 = 1800
2005 = 1640
2006 = 1375

Looks like around 2013 or so the AT runs out of thruhikers. Anyone want to put this in as a best-fit curve?

Mags

07-31-2008, 17:22

While can all certainly disagree with trail maintenance and quality of said maintenance (we can all have opinions and talk about them to say the least)

I am note sure posting links about oil field workers is very germane to this discussion. I really don't care what other people do for a living unless it directly pertains to this discussion. :)

Thanks.

Mags

07-31-2008, 17:24

Looks like around 2013 or so the AT runs out of thruhikers. Anyone want to put this in as a best-fit curve?

I suspect a leveling off, not a running out of, AT thru-hikers. The big bump in the early 2000s was probably because of Bill Bryson.

Probably a lot of people going to Alaska now because of Into the Wild.

minnesotasmith

07-31-2008, 17:29

Probably a lot of people going to Alaska now because of Into the Wild.

I was on an AK State tourism site the other day, there was a specific reference to it. They pulled out all the stops, including referring fairlydirectly each to starving and dying, to dissuade people from going to the site, or emulating McCandless's actions.

woodsy

07-31-2008, 18:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsy http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=675210#post675210)
Yeah really, whine about trail conditions but probably do nothing to make it better.:rolleyes:
Me?, donating member of MATC.
And do minor trail Maint when out, throw smaller trees and branches off the trail, place rocks/deadfall in muck holes etc...

kirby: I've been out with Tom Gorill(sp?) a few times to help build privies on the Grafton Loop Trail. I emailed the MATC volunteer coordinator to let him know I want to help, and he put me in touch with Tom. I volunteered to help maintain the AT, but Tom's big task right now is building privies on the Grafton Loop Trail. Tom oversees the Baldpate section and lives near me, so I am able to get a ride with him.

A big problem, according to an MATC ridge runner, is that the MATC is an aging club. I think the MATC needs to start some youth outreach programs, specifically targetting middle schools along the trail corridor.

That reminds me, I need to email them about that...

KirbyWell I was holding onto hope when I inserted probably into my remark.:D

rafe

07-31-2008, 18:07

I suspect a leveling off, not a running out of, AT thru-hikers. The big bump in the early 2000s was probably because of Bill Bryson.

I suspect economics has something to do with it, though it could cut both ways. Not everyone can "afford" a thru-hike, either in time or in cash. OTOH, it's a relatively inexpensive way to kill 5-6 months, if you happen to be unemployed and care-free.

Dances with Mice

07-31-2008, 18:11

If there were no thru-hikers starting one year would anybody miss them?

minnesotasmith

07-31-2008, 18:18

I suspect a leveling off, not a running out of, AT thru-hikers. The big bump in the early 2000s was probably because of Bill Bryson.

Presumably when the effect of C.A. Bryson's book had died down considerably.

Guess what? It didn't slow down the mathematically predicted progression of AT thruhikers to zero at all.

emerald

07-31-2008, 20:25

Please, find something else to do, get some sleep and go look for oil in the morning, would you? I'm going to bed and won't see your reply for days at the earliest.:sun

3000 posts and I have no idea why it's important I reach that milestone tonight.:rolleyes:

ed bell

07-31-2008, 20:37

If there were no thru-hikers starting one year would anybody miss them?Very interesting question.:-? I suspect that the # of thru-hikers has little to nothing to do with the survival of the Appalachian Trail. While it makes for a newspaper article here and there and plenty of fine folks who go on to support the AT in all sorts of ways, plenty of hikers, backpackers day-hikers and tourists will continue to utilize the AT for vacation, recreation, sight-seeing, exercise and whatever else floats their boat.:)

RITBlake

07-31-2008, 21:26

Guess that leaves you out. (FWIW, they blow your position out of the water.)

Another classic move from the MS trapped rat playbook

Lone Wolf

07-31-2008, 21:28

If there were no thru-hikers starting one year would anybody miss them?

mountain crossings would lose a buttload of $$$

rafe

07-31-2008, 21:56

OK, thank you MS for providing us with our daily gasoline needs. I guess I need to write a prayer now....

The Lord is my shepherd,
He leadeth me in pastures green
He gave us this day
Our daily bread and gasoline

Mark Knopfler, Baloney Again

Pedaling Fool

07-31-2008, 22:21

The Lord is my shepherd,
He leadeth me in pastures green
He gave us this day
Our daily bread and gasoline

Mark Knopfler, Baloney Again

I was thinking something more like this:

The Minnesotasmith is my shepherd,
He leadeth me in pastures green
He gave us this day
Our daily bread and gasoline

Alligator

07-31-2008, 22:34

rafe

07-31-2008, 22:41

The ATC keeps records of 2000 milers by year. (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.851157/k.A5A/2000Miler_Count_by_Year.htm)

I put these into a figure (attached). It's not thruhikers, but it's just as reasonable. There's a third order polynomial fit for you MS. The fourth order was not significant. It's a lot better than using 6 data points:rolleyes:. It doesn't suggest that we're heading to zero.

What's interesting about the ATC data is that the # of starters is declining, but the number of finishers is increasing. The success rate has more than doubled (some might say, tripled) since the bad-old-days. Also worth noting, ATC's finishers in year X may have started their journey any time (perhaps many years!) before year X. ;)

Appalachian Tater

07-31-2008, 22:52

Alligator

07-31-2008, 22:54

What's interesting about the ATC data is that the # of starters is declining, but the number of finishers is increasing. The success rate has more than doubled (some might say, tripled) since the bad-old-days. Also worth noting, ATC's finishers in year X may have started their journey any time (perhaps many years!) before year X. ;)That's true there is a lag for 2000 mile sectioners, but they look to be a not too varying percentage of the finishers for the year. Sectioners are traditionally a smaller percentage of completions <20%. That curve would be reduced by that amount. It wouldn't pull that curve down to zero, it's an increasing curve in the future.

rafe

07-31-2008, 22:59

It may also be that more people are lying about hiking the entire trail and reporting a completed thru-hike to the ATC.

Possibly... but good luck plotting honesty vs. time on a spreadsheet. I can rationalize the improved success rate in all sorts of ways; the gear is better, folks arrive at Springer more knowledgeable and better-prepared, and off-trail support is better. Not to mention the allure of all the hiker feeds. ;)

weary

07-31-2008, 23:26

I've been out with Tom Gorill(sp?) a few times to help build privies on the Grafton Loop Trail. I emailed the MATC volunteer coordinator to let him know I want to help, and he put me in touch with Tom. I volunteered to help maintain the AT, but Tom's big task right now is building privies on the Grafton Loop Trail. Tom oversees the Baldpate section and lives near me, so I am able to get a ride with him.

A big problem, according to an MATC ridge runner, is that the MATC is an aging club. I think the MATC needs to start some youth outreach programs, specifically targetting middle schools along the trail corridor.

That reminds me, I need to email them about that...

Kirby
MATC has always been an "aging club." 35 years ago a promising "environmentalist" took over as president. The environmental community in Maine was appalled that he was wasting his time, since MATC and the trail were dying because of the lack of young people.

Well, we are stronger than ever, but we still have relatively few young people. It's a life cycle thing. Maintaining the trail requires a serious commitment of time. Young adults tend to be busy with education, families and jobs.

The serious maintenance in Maine and I suspect elsewhere is done by those willing to accept responsibility for a specific section, and make a commitment to show up two or three weekends a year to make sure the work gets done. The volunteers tend to be middle aged or older, rather than young adults with jobs and family demands. Though there are a few exceptions..

Maintainers for most of the 100 assigned sections in Maine usually recruit neighbors, kids, scouts, and family members to help. There always is plenty of work.

But without someone assigned to every section, the work tends not to get done. The system works against people like Kirby who are willing to help. Teenagers are only rarely assigned sections, because experience shows they rarely are able to carry on in a systematic way for any length of time. When an overseer has a vacancy, he fills it with the applicant that seems most likely to be around for a while. That only rarely is that a teenager with school and job needs.

The Kirbys of the world need to find a neighbor as he has done who has a section and needs help from time to time.

But there is no lack of opportunity for those willing to take responsibility for a section. My MATC newsletters always have advertisements for maintainers to fill vacancies for section maintainers. Most issues also list club wide activities that need people for a day, a weekend, or a week.

Most of the elaborate rock work that some have praised was done by club wide work projects, usually with an experienced paid leader. All you need to participate is to join MATC (dues $15 a year) and you will find multiple ways to help. Most maintaining clubs use a similar system. Join any of the 30 clubs and you will have many opportunities to work.

Weary

Dances with Mice

08-01-2008, 06:32

mountain crossings would lose a buttload of $$$They could open a Starbucks franchise in the outfitters and a Subway sandwich shop in the hostel. They could keep the front store about the same, stock some motorcycle fashion accessories to pull in the scooter crowd. With a great location like that they could make more money and work fewer hours if they didn't have to be set up to deal with a seasonal rush of thru-hikers.

Thru-hiking may be the worst thing to ever happen to the AT.

Lone Wolf

08-01-2008, 06:39

They could open a Starbucks franchise in the outfitters and a Subway sandwich shop in the hostel. They could keep the front store about the same, stock some motorcycle fashion accessories to pull in the scooter crowd. With a great location like that they could make more money and work fewer hours if they didn't have to be set up to deal with a seasonal rush of thru-hikers.

Thru-hiking may be the worst thing to ever happen to the AT.

oh, i agree. and i've been guilty of it. the trail in georgia is trashed. at least all the shelter and camping areas anyway

Dances with Mice

08-01-2008, 06:53

oh, i agree. and i've been guilty of it. the trail in georgia is trashed. at least all the shelter and camping areas anywayBut considering some people's track record of predicting future events, MC's going to be in the hostel / outfitter biz for many years to come.

Still, a Starbucks franchise wouldn't be a bad idea. I bet they could pick one up pretty cheap right now. Pirate the barista, I can see that.

Lone Wolf

08-01-2008, 06:58

Starbucks is way overpriced. it should be named Fourbucks

max patch

08-01-2008, 07:44

Starbucks doesn't franchise. All stores that serve that overpriced, overroasted crap are company owned.

rafe

08-01-2008, 07:46

Starbucks is contracting. 600 stores closing. Or was it 6000?

Dances with Mice

08-01-2008, 08:04

Starbucks is contracting. 600 stores closing. Or was it 6000?I can see my job here is done.

Bearpaw88

08-01-2008, 08:31

The volunteers tend to be middle aged or older, rather than young adults with jobs and family demands. Though there are a few exceptions..

But without someone assigned to every section, the work tends not to get done. The system works against people like Kirby who are willing to help. Teenagers are only rarely assigned sections, because experience shows they rarely are able to carry on in a systematic way for any length of time. When an overseer has a vacancy, he fills it with the applicant that seems most likely to be around for a while. That only rarely is that a teenager with school and job needs.

Most of the elaborate rock work that some have praised was done by club wide work projects, usually with an experienced paid leader. All you need to participate is to join MATC (dues $15 a year) and you will find multiple ways to help. Most maintaining clubs use a similar system. Join any of the 30 clubs and you will have many opportunities to work.

Weary

Great explanation Weary,

The IAPTF is similar in this regard. Windjammer and I used to be some of the youngest people at meetings and work events. I do not believe it is because young people do not care, but as you said are often bogged down with other responsibilities. Just as there are not many thru-hikers in their 30's.

Middle school and high school students are often not a good idea on trail crews. They can be unfocused and put others in danger if they are goofing off. If all you have to do is use some loppers middle school students are fine, but if you are doing anything technical, like rock work, they can sometimes cause more problems.

I have seen community service from the prison system work out very well on trail crews. Some are uncomfortable with this, but what better way for non-violent criminals to give back.

A big cheer for all maintainers on all trails!!:banana

the goat

08-01-2008, 09:30

Starbucks is contracting. 600 stores closing. Or was it 6000?
it is 600.

Mags

08-01-2008, 09:31

Let's play nice all. We can all disagree without being disagreeable.. :) Try to keep the personal remarks out..'eh?

A-Train

08-01-2008, 12:19

They could open a Starbucks franchise in the outfitters and a Subway sandwich shop in the hostel. They could keep the front store about the same, stock some motorcycle fashion accessories to pull in the scooter crowd. With a great location like that they could make more money and work fewer hours if they didn't have to be set up to deal with a seasonal rush of thru-hikers.

Thru-hiking may be the worst thing to ever happen to the AT.

Try telling that to the dozens of businesses that make a living off of thru-hikers each year.

emerald

08-01-2008, 12:48

Middle school and high school students are often not a good idea on trail crews. They can be unfocused and put others in danger if they are goofing off. If all you have to do is use some loppers middle school students are fine, but if you are doing anything technical, like rock work, they can sometimes cause more problems.

Summer trail crews involving young people make significant contributions to the A.T. These experiences help young people develop work skills and encourage their entry into outdoor careers.

It takes strong backs and discipline to set rock steps heavy enough to withstand the test of time. Crews engaged in this work benefit greatly from some older, more brawny participants with similar, physical work experience. These individuals can also serve to set an example for the younger crew members and keep them focused on their assigned work. Some of the younger crew members with less physical strength can often help in other ways, but can be a more than just a annoyance as Bearpaw88 points out when they are not on-task.

Someone who understands the demands of such work and wants to make the effort can find the right individuals. I had good and bad experiences. The best resulted when participants were carefully selected by someone experienced with staffing a trail crew and I had the opportunity to interview them too.

Dances with Mice

08-01-2008, 12:53

Try telling that to the dozens of businesses that make a living off of thru-hikers each year. And how do they help the Trail?

Lone Wolf

08-01-2008, 12:56

Try telling that to the dozens of businesses that make a living off of thru-hikers each year.

dozens? i know very few that make a "living" off hikers

A-Train

08-01-2008, 13:06

dozens? i know very few that make a "living" off hikers

Maybe not dozens making a living, but certainly all of the outfitters and several motels.

A-Train

08-01-2008, 13:08

And how do they help the Trail?

I can't really answer that, but it's not black and white: section hikers help the trail, thru-hikers don't.

Plenty of thru-hikers have gone on to give back in various different ways

Lone Wolf

08-01-2008, 13:08

all the outfitters and motels are year-round businesses that cater to a lot more than AT hikers

A-Train

08-01-2008, 13:15

all the outfitters and motels are year-round businesses that cater to a lot more than AT hikers

OK, so no more thru-hikers at Neels Gap dropping a grand, no more thru-hikers at Mt Rogers buying ultra light gear, no thru-hikers staying at the Doyle, none of them buying beer, no more thru-hikers staying at Elmers. All of these places are still financially sound?

I'm asking a real question here.

Sly

08-01-2008, 13:16

oh, i agree. and i've been guilty of it. the trail in georgia is trashed. at least all the shelter and camping areas anyway

What do you mean by trashed? It didn't seem much different this year than 10 years ago.

emerald

08-01-2008, 13:19

I no longer know what this thread is about. I thought it had something to do with Maine.

Dances with Mice

08-01-2008, 13:21

What is this thread about? I'm not sure I remember. I thought it had something to do with Maine.Starbucks.

dessertrat

08-01-2008, 13:24

It had something to do with people griping about/defending the condition of the trail in Maine.

emerald

08-01-2008, 13:24

I'll find something else to read.

mudhead

08-01-2008, 13:28

Starbucks.

I had a plain cup from them a few years back. Same price/quality as Dunkin Donuts.

I don't get what all the fuss about Starbucks is about.

Mags

08-01-2008, 13:29

Is this thread about the conditions of Starbucks in Maine?

http://www.starbuckseverywhere.net/Maine.htm

A-Train

08-01-2008, 13:35

I guess we can't have reasonable conversations if they're not on the original topic, or people just grow disinterested?

mudhead

08-01-2008, 13:38

Last I knew, there were only 2 remaining Starbucks in Maine, and they were due to close. Wonder what happened to the rest. Maybe they were early victims of Dunkin.

Premium thread drift. I like coffee.

Lone Wolf

08-01-2008, 13:39

OK, so no more thru-hikers at Neels Gap dropping a grand, no more thru-hikers at Mt Rogers buying ultra light gear, no thru-hikers staying at the Doyle, none of them buying beer, no more thru-hikers staying at Elmers. All of these places are still financially sound?

yes they are. Neel gap makes more off Atlanta tourists than hikers. MRO has an on-line business and tourists buy tons of t-shirts etc., the Doyle does a damn good local bar/food business year-round. Elmers has lots of retreats and "regular" guests year round. none of these businesses NEEDS thru-hikers. they're just some frosting on the cake

Lone Wolf

08-01-2008, 13:41

I don't get what all the fuss about Starbucks is about.

marketing and fru-fruness. Micky D's puts out a damn good cup of coffee these days

emerald

08-01-2008, 13:43

I guess we can't have reasonable conversations if they're not on the original topic, or people just grow disinterested?

I thought the program called for creating another thread when someone wants to discuss another topic.

mudhead

08-01-2008, 13:48

They will even give a senior discount on that cup of coffee in at least one store. (Mc'd)

Sorry SOG. Coffee was more pleasant than the earlier stuff. I'll be quiet now.

Mags

08-01-2008, 14:03

I thought the program called for creating another thread when someone wants to discuss another topic.

Think of this as a campfire.

Sometimes the discussion is serious and philosophical, sometimes it shifts to another discussion, sometimes we tell jokes to make light of a possible contentious issue.

If you want a strictly moderated discussion, may I suggest STRAIGHT FORWARD? Feel free to start a thread of your choice..on straight forward or another area.

A-Train

08-01-2008, 14:15

yes they are. Neel gap makes more off Atlanta tourists than hikers. MRO has an on-line business and tourists buy tons of t-shirts etc., the Doyle does a damn good local bar/food business year-round. Elmers has lots of retreats and "regular" guests year round. none of these businesses NEEDS thru-hikers. they're just some frosting on the cake

Thank you, I stand corrected. Didn't realize how much business they all do "off-season". I still think DWM's comment about thru-hikers being the worst thing for the AT is something most trail business proprietors would disagree with, though it's from a financial perspective, not a trail impact one.

emerald

08-01-2008, 14:41

Think of this as a campfire.

Sometimes the discussion is serious and philosophical, sometimes it shifts to another discussion, sometimes we tell jokes to make light of a possible contentious issue.

If you want a strictly moderated discussion, may I suggest STRAIGHT FORWARD? Feel free to start a thread of your choice..on straight forward or another area.

Thanks for the invitation to start another thread, but I had an interest in this one which has become about other things.

Could you please define for me what constitutes hijacking a thread since we are sitting around a campfire? Just the idea makes me hot. Please excuse me, I need to get myself a glass of iced water.

Lone Wolf

08-01-2008, 14:46

Thanks for the invitation to start another thread, but I had an interest in this one which has become about other things.

Could you please define for me what constitutes hijacking a thread since we are sitting around a campfire? Just the idea makes me hot. Please excuse me, I need to get myself a glass of iced water.

just don't start a story telling contest around the campfire

minnesotasmith

08-01-2008, 15:02

emerald

08-01-2008, 15:10

They can make themselves useful when they set an example and not act like idiots, but locals are more apt to know more about local conditions and thruhikers can learn something from them.

Say, MS, find any oil today?

A-Train

08-01-2008, 15:11

1) I get the strong impression that most are more LNT that weekenders/large groups commonly are. That means IMO less littering, less cutting trees down/cutting branches to sleep on/digging trenches around tents/properly protecting food from wildlife so as not to encourage it to become problems, less likely to use boomboxes/firearms/ fireworks, let dogs loose, etc.

2) Thrus spread their hiking out in space if not so much in time (given the late Feb-early April NOBO rush every year). The thrus that don't quit do close to the whole Trail, not concentrating on certain popular parts (GSNP, SNP, Whites, etc.)

3) Surely thrus are somewhat more likely to hammock, tent well off-trail, etc., than campground/shelter flock compared to weekenders/large groups?

For those reasons, I think that thruhikers aren't all that bad for the trail in terms of impact/wear.

Agreed. My experience as a Ridgerunner exposed me to lots of harm and damage people were doing to the trail, specifically around Sunfish Pond and Backpacker campsite: illegal camping, littering, illegal fires, drugs, large consumption of alcohol, noise late at night, etc. These acts were done for the most part by weekenders. I didn't witness the same behavior by most thru-hikers but YMMV

emerald

08-01-2008, 15:16

By the time you encountered them, they'd already hiked at least 1000 miles give or take.

minnesotasmith

08-01-2008, 15:35

Say, MS, find any oil today?

The rig I'm on has been trying and failing to cement intermediate casing for about 3 days. (The bond logs keep looking terrible.) Once that's done, we're back to drilling. If we can get past the Trinidad Sandstone and into the Pierre Shale, it should be easier going, at least with drilling mud losses. Can still get stuck and twist off, to be sure...

Mags

08-01-2008, 16:01

Thanks for the invitation to start another thread, but I had an interest in this one which has become about other things.

Then, rather than kvetch, continue with the thread and post your thought on this topic like others just did. Pretty simple.

Thanks.

emerald

08-01-2008, 16:13

The rig I'm on has been trying and failing to cement intermediate casing for about 3 days. (The bond logs keep looking terrible.) Once that's done, we're back to drilling. If we can get past the Trinidad Sandstone and into the Pierre Shale, it should be easier going, at least with drilling mud losses. Can still get stuck and twist off, to be sure...

What is the oil-bearing formation you seek, how old is it and and how deep beneath the surface do you expect to find it at your location?

Pedaling Fool

08-01-2008, 16:16

I'll find something else to read.
:welcome

emerald

08-01-2008, 16:26

It's getting better. Besides, oil is A.T.-related and the drilling crew seems to be having a tough time of it today.

Dances with Mice

08-01-2008, 16:28

1) 3) Surely thrus are somewhat more likely to hammock, tent well off-trail, etc., than campground/shelter flock compared to weekenders/large groups?You MUST be joking.

Mags

08-01-2008, 16:30

re: Weekenders using shelters vs. thru-hikers

In my experience, it seems to be opposite.

Prior to long distance hiking, I seldom used a shelter and found a site away from public areas.

minnesotasmith

08-01-2008, 16:32

What is the oil-bearing formation you seek, how old is it and and how deep beneath the surface do you expect to find it at your location?

It's pretty shallow stuff, in the 3-6000' bracket. It's generally Cretaceous in age (65+ m.y.). Actually, this one is primarily a gas field. The Pierre Shale is the zone of interest, having to be fraced to produce. (All this is public info, I'm not giving anything away here not findable online by anyone who cares.) This is the Raton Basin I'm in. Usually, I work further north in CO, sometimes in WY or UT, in fields that where drilling is as deep as over 12,000'.

minnesotasmith

08-01-2008, 16:39

You MUST be joking.

Page 63, Chapter 9 of Roland Mueser's book "Lessons From the Applachian Trail", he reports that in his survey of thruhikers, they spent only 56% of nights in trail shelters. I suspect that by your mainly seeing the GA/NC ones (while often still relatively green), you may have have a skewed sample.

emerald

08-01-2008, 16:47

I see the Pierre Shale is fossiliferous.

Hope you can overcome today's difficulties and make some headway.:)

Mags

08-01-2008, 16:54

I see the Pierre Shale is fossiliferous (http://www.itano.net/fossils/pierre/pierre.htm).

Hope you can overcome today's difficulties and make some headway.:)

Hi SOG!

If you could please continue the discussion of minerals and such on a different thread (or better yet PM, since it is only between two of you), it would be appreciated.

There is a fine line between side banter and threadjacking; the above discussion crosses it. :)

If you have further comments, please PM me.

Thanks!

Dances with Mice

08-01-2008, 17:13

walkin' wally

08-01-2008, 18:58

I haven't done a lot of AT hiking this year, but I strongly doubt it. Most of the same maintainers continue year after year. Some decade after decade. Most got a late start this year because of the heavy snow cover. And rain and mud have slowed work a bit, I'm sure.

But it simply is not true that MATC doesn't maintain its trail. Typically, maintainers spend 20,000 hours and $150,000 a year on the trail in Maine, a pretty remarkable record.

MATC has around 600 members, of whom around 100 maintain trail sections ranging in length between two miles and eight miles. Many are simply hikers who join to help the cause with their dues money from a distance.

Others help out in other ways. Like myself, which puts out a 5-time-a-year newsletter, or serve on committees that do planning and raise the needed dollars. Only about $9,000 of our $200,000 budget comes from member dues. The rest we have to beg for.

Weary www.matc.org

Thank you for all you do and have done Weary :sun

ed bell

08-01-2008, 19:41

re: Weekenders using shelters vs. thru-hikers

In my experience, it seems to be opposite.

Prior to long distance hiking, I seldom used a shelter and found a site away from public areas.I can understand your point from a "weekend warrior" standpoint. That's always been my M.O.

rafe

08-01-2008, 19:55

My attitude toward shelters hasn't changed much -- from the POV of a weekend warrior, thru-hiker wannabe, or long-term section hiker. To wit: if conditions are right, I'm happy to use a shelter, and if not, I'm always prepared to tent. "Positive" signals would be: an empty shelter, or at least not too full; friendly people, a nice site, and not too trashy. If anything "feels wrong" about it... there's always the tent.

One advantage of section hiking (or at least, hiking apart from the thru-hiker wave) is that you're more likely to find shelters unoccupied.

ed bell

08-01-2008, 20:00

1) I get the strong impression that most are more LNT that weekenders/large groups commonly are. That means IMO less littering, less cutting trees down/cutting branches to sleep on/digging trenches around tents/properly protecting food from wildlife so as not to encourage it to become problems, less likely to use boomboxes/firearms/ fireworks, let dogs loose, etc.

2) Thrus spread their hiking out in space if not so much in time (given the late Feb-early April NOBO rush every year). The thrus that don't quit do close to the whole Trail, not concentrating on certain popular parts (GSNP, SNP, Whites, etc.)

3) Surely thrus are somewhat more likely to hammock, tent well off-trail, etc., than campground/shelter flock compared to weekenders/large groups?

For those reasons, I think that thruhikers aren't all that bad for the trail in terms of impact/wear.It sounds like you had little or no interest in backpacking prior to your thru-hike. You are making quite a few questionable assumptions. Cutting down branches to sleep on? Boomboxes and fireworks? Thrus don't concentrate on popular parts? The AT in general is the most popular hiking trail on the east coast if not the country. Sounds like your perspective is skewed and you actually come off sounding elitist.

woodsy

08-01-2008, 20:18

ed bell: Sounds like your perspective is skewed and you actually come off sounding elitist.What'd he say? LOL
minnesotasmith (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php?u=3390) This message is hidden because minnesotasmith is on your ignore list.

Red Hat

08-02-2008, 13:33

emerald

08-02-2008, 14:40

Some of those old tote roads weren't and wouldn't necessarily today be an easier, more pleasant hike. Walking on partially submerged, rotted corduroy wasn't much fun. I'm doubtful this earlier route now replaced by a route that favors the heights of land would be a better route.

Maintaining the old route or another similar route with a combination of public and private funding might be more expensive and problematic than maintaining the current route. I'd enjoy hearing from MATC, especially weary, on this observation I just posted.

weary

08-02-2008, 14:52

Well, I did just over 100 miles on the AT in Maine and I thought, all in all, it was pretty well maintained. The folks that were griping about maintenance were mostly talking about brush needing to be cut back in the bog areas. I didn't mind my legs getting a little wet from brush. I wasn't prepared for the rock climbs, but that's not the fault of maintainers. I certainly don't expect them to build rock stairs over every mountain. I did kind of wish, from time to time, that they had kept on using the old logging roads from the old days.
Using the old logging roads was not a serious option. One the legislation passed by Congress talked about a ridgeline trail. More importantly, the original trail was pushed through during the depression on a handshake, when paper demand was low and logging was minimal.

During the post war economic expansion, the big companies wanted their roads back. They pretty much just ignored the trail. I once saw a full load of big logs near Gulf Hagas, a couple of which still had the white AT blaze on them.

Had MATC insisted on keeping their valley routes, we'd probably have faced years of litigation.

Plus most maintainers are not long distance hikers. Most are weekend warriors, looking for a challenging hike. There instinct was to design a trail as physically challenging and as scenic as possible, not as easy to hike as possible.

Weary

minnesotasmith

08-02-2008, 15:14

Some of those old tote roads weren't and wouldn't necessarily today be an easier, more pleasant hike. Walking on partially submerged, rotted corduroy wasn't much fun. I'm doubtful this earlier route now replaced by a route that favors the heights of land would be a better route.

After his 2nd thruhike in what, the early 1970s, didn't he bitterly complain that the new route in Maine was just "rocks, roots, and puddles", in contrast to how it was when he did it in ~1948?

emerald

08-02-2008, 15:25

MS, my point was that those roads were on private property much of it owned and maintained by paper companies for the purpose of hauling out wood fiber to supply their mills. Those roads were something now of a bygone era, much like the log drives on the rivers or fire towers.

I believe you are referring to comments Earl Shaffer made during or following his 3rd hike in 1998. His 2nd was in 1965 before those changes mostly in the 1980s. Earl's journal (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?trailname=3328) from his SOBO, 99-day 2nd hike captures what the A.T. was like during those days. In some ways hiking the A.T. then was different and in others it remains the same.

Mags

08-04-2008, 10:02

After his 2nd thruhike in what, the early 1970s, didn't he bitterly complain that the new route in Maine was just "rocks, roots, and puddles", in contrast to how it was when he did it in ~1948?

He was also close to 80 yo. Makes for a more difficult hike to say the least.

I suspect that may have a something to do with how he felt about the thru-hike vs being 29 yo (1948) and 46 yo (1965).

Skyline

08-04-2008, 10:27

I can't speak with certainty about hostels, motels, restaurants, or outfitters that are near the AT, but I can say with certainty that shuttlers that do not also operate hostels/motels derive very little $$$ from thru-hikers. It's almost always section hikers who make the reservations for longer shuttles, which pay the bills. They seem to understand and appreciate the service at its legitimate costs, while many (not all) thru-hikers expect to receive shuttles for free or for a little gas money.

warren doyle

08-07-2008, 15:24

He was also close to 80 yo. Makes for a more difficult hike to say the least.

I suspect that may have a something to do with how he felt about the thru-hike vs being 29 yo (1948) and 46 yo (1965).

Precisely.

I had three face-to-face conversations with Earl on his last hike.
He wasn't a 'happy hiker' and seemed to blame the trail for the difficulty he was having rather than recognizing that his age was a bigger factor.
This line of reasoning was disappointing to me.

The trail is becoming more difficult for me for only two reasons: my age and my body weight. I have no control over the former but only over the latter. I need to adapt to the trail, not the other way around.

vonfrick

08-07-2008, 15:37

............

warraghiyagey

08-07-2008, 15:41

Your also going to discover that the MATC does not believe in actually maintaining their trail.

I take that best, MOST of the trail in Maine is poorly maintained.

Sorry after your thru that you feel the need to communicate this. If you wanted a road or sidewalk journey there's a few million miles to choose from within U.S. borders. That's why it's called a trail. I've hiked the Northeast starting at Katahdin three years running now and the AT in Maine is exactly what it's supposed to be. . . a trail. . . and it's beautiful, and an honor to walk on.

dessertrat

08-18-2008, 10:05

Page 63, Chapter 9 of Roland Mueser's book "Lessons From the Applachian Trail", he reports that in his survey of thruhikers, they spent only 56% of nights in trail shelters. I suspect that by your mainly seeing the GA/NC ones (while often still relatively green), you may have have a skewed sample.

But how many nights in hostels, hotels/motels, and at campgrounds or designated tentsites? There are a lot of those on the trail as well. Also, does "in shelters" mean they slept inside the building, or does it include pitching a tent next to a shelter, which gives one all of the advantages (privy, water source, picnic table) without the downsides (mice, snoring, etc).