Sleeping Bag Question...

[SurferNerd]

Since my gear list critics were so awesome, I thought I'd drop another question. Several people mentioned my choice of 20* bag leaving March 1st next year is way too cold. Well, not only is the bag over $300, its 1lb 11oz. I'm here to ask if you know of either a light, cheaper alternative, or if just throwing in a sea to summit mummy liner would add enough to work, then once the temps warm up just send it home? Or even a light cheaper alternative, with a bag liner.

[Chance09]

i think this one is up to you man. I've spent nights in 0 degree weather in my 32 degree bag with just a micro fleece and long johns on and been fine. I'm starting march 7th and taking a 20 deg quilt so we'll. I like the idea of a quilt a bit more because i won't be switching it out later on in the hike when it gets to hot because i can just loosen it up around me or use it as a blanket.

Another tip for the cold nights is to wake up in the middle of the night and eat something. I have been told that this keeps your metabolism going strong all night by digesting the food and keeps you warmer. Someone else might be able to confirm or deny this, but i've found that it never feels as cold waking up in the mornign if i ate something in the middle of the night.

[taildragger]

As long as you can make your bag work for the lower temps, then go for it.

[The Solemates]

this winter, spend several nights outside in your sleeping bag with your hiking set-up in 10-15 degree weather, and see how you feel....then imagine doing that for several nights straight....thats the best advice.

[jesse]

Use liners, and thermal underwear, other clothes, etc. Whatever it takes to stay warm. In Dec/Jan when temps fall, check it out in a safe place like your back yard, or a State Park, where your car is nearby. You should know, first hand, what your capabilities are before you leave. I have found my balaclava is one of the most important pieces of winter sleeping clothes I have.

[Blissful]

My son used a Cats Meow 20 degree with a silk liner for a March 1st start and did fine. If you get chilly, that's what long undies and a hat are for.

[gravityman]

I wouldn't start with a 20 deg bag march 7th, but it's up to you.

Personally I like to be able to get in my bag and KNOW I'll be warm. It's the night after night problem for me. I can tough out just about anything (and have).

Sleeping pad is also SUPER important. A z-rest will freeze me, a prolite 3 is plenty for me.

If you flee to town whenever it looks like it is going to be too cold, then you'll probably be just fine with a 20 deg, but if you want to know you will be warm in the Smokey's in the single digits (like we had in 2001) then bring the warm bag.

Gravity

[SurferNerd]

Well as a lot of you stated, I'd love to take it out and test it. But the return policy and the handmade bags are impossible to return. So if I buy it, its mine... It's looking like good underwear, the bag, and a decent liner.

[Blissful]

I'll tell you the weather is so unpredictable in March / April. We had 70 degrees in the SMokies in March, 07. This year they got snow. If you are a fairly warm sleeper, you should be okay. If you know on the trail cold weather or a front is coming with cold and wind, try to get to a town or hostel. You will also stay warmer by tenting, by far, so plan for that. I also used hand warmers and put them at my body core to stay warm and that helped tremendously. On our trip, we had only one single digit night but we were in Franklin that night. The coldest it got for us was 18 in early April outside Erwin, but again, my son did okay.

And someone said to eat cayenne pepper or something too - ? ! ?

[simplespirit]

What kind of clothing are you taking? What about shelter? That'll help me answer your question a lot better. Also, what brand of bag are you looking at? Sounds like 800+ fill down by the weight and price.

I believe they say to sprinkle some cayenne powder in your socks before you hit the sack. Supposedly it increases circulation or something along those lines.

[George]

I like insulated pants/down jacket to boost a bags range then you can use it around camp for cold evenings and early mornings, send them home when it warms up and consider getting them back for a safety margin in the whites when your 20F bag will be worn and crushed to about 35F

[simplespirit]

I like insulated pants/down jacket to boost a bags range then you can use it around camp for cold evenings and early mornings, send them home when it warms up and consider getting them back for a safety margin in the whites when your 20F bag will be worn and crushed to about 35F

That's partly why I was asking about clothing. A down bag is not going to be worn and crushed to a higher temp rating though unless you're extremely careless.

[SurferNerd]

What kind of clothing are you taking? What about shelter? That'll help me answer your question a lot better. Also, what brand of bag are you looking at? Sounds like 800+ fill down by the weight and price.

I believe they say to sprinkle some cayenne powder in your socks before you hit the sack. Supposedly it increases circulation or something along those lines.

It's a Feathered Friends Hummingbird. I'll be taking 3 layers at first, full thermal underwear, a layer of wicking tshirt and columbia zipoff pants, and a third layer of rainsuit. Shelter for the winter section is my MSR Hubba, and considering a switch to HHammock in the warmer months. Hope this helps.

[Jim Adams]

I did a 13 month trip which involved an AT thru in 1990 with a 20* for the entire trip. At one point it was -6*F outside but because I was in a tent the bag was fine. You may have 1-3 nights where you get cold but I think that for the most part you will be fine.

geek

[simplespirit]

It's a Feathered Friends Hummingbird. I'll be taking 3 layers at first, full thermal underwear, a layer of wicking tshirt and columbia zipoff pants, and a third layer of rainsuit. Shelter for the winter section is my MSR Hubba, and considering a switch to HHammock in the warmer months. Hope this helps.

The tent should add 5-10 degrees of warmth when it's closed up. If you're a warm sleeper you might ok with just what you have. If you're a cold sleeper or just don't want to sleep cold at all consider taking an insulating jacket and insulating pants.

You can't really go off other's experiences such as someone else being warm at -6 in a 20 degree bag. For all you know they could burn calories like a raging wildfire or could've been wearing several layers of insulated clothing.

[NICKTHEGREEK]

Since my gear list critics were so awesome, I thought I'd drop another question. Several people mentioned my choice of 20* bag leaving March 1st next year is way too cold. Well, not only is the bag over $300, its 1lb 11oz. I'm here to ask if you know of either a light, cheaper alternative, or if just throwing in a sea to summit mummy liner would add enough to work, then once the temps warm up just send it home? Or even a light cheaper alternative, with a bag liner.
You can deal with it the mountaineers do, wear all your clothes to supplement the bag.

[buz]

I vote you would be fine, but with a couple of comments. Buy the bag if you are sure it fits you. How do you know this? My only way is to test sleep in the bag, or at minimal be in the bag. Can't see just buying one and be stuck with what shows up. What exactly is their policy?

Test sleeping in the bag at low temp is the best way, because then you can evaluate your pad as well, and your layering systems. If you live in cold climate, no problem. Maybe put off buying the bag until very late this year, when you can test sleep and return it quickly if it doesn't work out.

Or look at other bags, there are many good choices that you could deal with better return policys. REI, if you have a store near you, is great. They carry Marmot bags, which are very quality pieces. Test sleeping with REI product would be no problem. Just pay shipping back if you didn't get what you want. I would advocate practice sleeping at temp as the best choice, if practical. Practice camping for a weekend in the late fall, depending on where you live would be my evaluator.

Also, overall, I think any quality 20 degree bag with good well thought out layering system will get you thru very cold nights when needed.

[SurferNerd]

I vote you would be fine, but with a couple of comments. Buy the bag if you are sure it fits you. How do you know this? My only way is to test sleep in the bag, or at minimal be in the bag. Can't see just buying one and be stuck with what shows up. What exactly is their policy?

Test sleeping in the bag at low temp is the best way, because then you can evaluate your pad as well, and your layering systems. If you live in cold climate, no problem. Maybe put off buying the bag until very late this year, when you can test sleep and return it quickly if it doesn't work out.

Or look at other bags, there are many good choices that you could deal with better return policys. REI, if you have a store near you, is great. They carry Marmot bags, which are very quality pieces. Test sleeping with REI product would be no problem. Just pay shipping back if you didn't get what you want. I would advocate practice sleeping at temp as the best choice, if practical. Practice camping for a weekend in the late fall, depending on where you live would be my evaluator.

Also, overall, I think any quality 20 degree bag with good well thought out layering system will get you through very cold nights when needed.

Thanks for the opinion, Feathered Friends warranty is quite normal, 30 days return money back, minus shipping costs. So if I was to buy it and not like it, I'm out $30 bucks. But I'm pretty sure I'll like it. here's the specs:

Hummingbird (58/52/38)Loft: 5"
Fill weight: 13.4 oz
Average Weight: 1lb 11oz

I'll be tent camping for the winter months for sure, my MSR Hubba keeps me quite warm with its little circulation. I'm from Florida and normally a warmbodied person. This past winter I was out making a snowman in shorts and a tshirt, so cold weather really doesn't affect me.

An REI is about 10 minutes from here, Thank God I was blessed to live local to one. I was thinking of buying using ship to store, and that would let me try it out to keep it or not. They've been amazing, and if I ever worked in retail again, thats where I'd be. I think I'll just go with testing once it gets cold.

[mudhead]

Curious. Why did you opt for FF over Western Mountaineering?

[SurferNerd]

Curious. Why did you opt for FF over Western Mountaineering?

Well, I had never heard of them until 10 seconds ago. I did some hunting on their site. And here's my differences. The closest one in comparison is 1 oz heavier, $35 more expensive, and even though its made in the US, you can't buy directly from them, dealers only, which means buying local, paying taxes, and premium prices from their MSRP. And I can't find a word about a warranty anywhere on their site. But I did like the opinion. Thanks

[taildragger]

Thanks for the opinion, Feathered Friends warranty is quite normal, 30 days return money back, minus shipping costs. So if I was to buy it and not like it, I'm out $30 bucks. But I'm pretty sure I'll like it. here's the specs:

Hummingbird (58/52/38)Loft: 5"
Fill weight: 13.4 oz
Average Weight: 1lb 11oz

I'll be tent camping for the winter months for sure, my MSR Hubba keeps me quite warm with its little circulation. I'm from Florida and normally a warmbodied person. This past winter I was out making a snowman in shorts and a tshirt, so cold weather really doesn't affect me.

An REI is about 10 minutes from here, Thank God I was blessed to live local to one. I was thinking of buying using ship to store, and that would let me try it out to keep it or not. They've been amazing, and if I ever worked in retail again, thats where I'd be. I think I'll just go with testing once it gets cold.

Could always get some overstuffing if your worried

[mudhead]

But I did like the opinion. Thanks

No opinion, am just curious. Might have some birthday dough in the pipeline!

http://www.spadout.com/p/western-mountaineering-badger-mf/

[gravityman]

Well, I had never heard of them until 10 seconds ago. I did some hunting on their site. And here's my differences. The closest one in comparison is 1 oz heavier, $35 more expensive, and even though its made in the US, you can't buy directly from them, dealers only, which means buying local, paying taxes, and premium prices from their MSRP. And I can't find a word about a warranty anywhere on their site. But I did like the opinion. Thanks

As the owner of a hummingbird and a Western Mountaineering Versalite, I suggest the Western Mountain bags by far over the Feathered Friends. They have a lot more loft and the loft has held up better.

The extra 1 oz and $35 is worth every penny.

Buy online to avoid taxes. Many deals online...

Gravity

[mudhead]

How do the zippers compare? Snag wise, I am talented.

[SurferNerd]

As the owner of a hummingbird and a Western Mountaineering Versalite, I suggest the Western Mountain bags by far over the Feathered Friends. They have a lot more loft and the loft has held up better.

The extra 1 oz and $35 is worth every penny.

Buy online to avoid taxes. Many deals online...

Gravity

You Sir, rock! An opinion from an owner of both models in question. I was looking at the Western Mountaineering UltraLite, its about compared to the FF. How about the zipper, the snag question is good. I've seen a few models at different places that save weight by eliminating the zipper completely and instead using a light velcro with overlapping flaps, and I've also seen one minus the zipper all together, just elastic expanding seem to get in.

[SurferNerd]

No opinion, am just curious. Might have some birthday dough in the pipeline!

http://www.spadout.com/p/western-mountaineering-badger-mf/

Your a lucky duck to spend that much for one. I thought my $350 for one was expensive...shoosh.

[mudhead]

Just clicked on one.

Go to spadout, search WM. The Badger is oversized.

[gravityman]

You Sir, rock! An opinion from an owner of both models in question. I was looking at the Western Mountaineering UltraLite, its about compared to the FF. How about the zipper, the snag question is good. I've seen a few models at different places that save weight by eliminating the zipper completely and instead using a light velcro with overlapping flaps, and I've also seen one minus the zipper all together, just elastic expanding seem to get in.

Use to own the ultralite. Sold it and replaced with the Versalite for a March 1 2005 start. You will have a number of cold nights in the Ultralite, but you will survive (most likely :).

Both bags get the zipper snagged. Neither has been damaged by the zipper. The WM have a stiffener near the zipper, but the zipper still seems to find somewhere to grab.

Gravity

[SurferNerd]

Use to own the ultralite. Sold it and replaced with the Versalite for a March 1 2005 start. You will have a number of cold nights in the Ultralite, but you will survive (most likely :).

Both bags get the zipper snagged. Neither has been damaged by the zipper. The WM have a stiffener near the zipper, but the zipper still seems to find somewhere to grab.

Gravity

How's the warranty, I still can't find anything about it. I'm thinking if I REALLY like it, maybe I'll make a custom sleeping bag, by removing the zipper.

[gravityman]

From their website : Guarantee & Warranty
All Western Mountaineering products are guaranteed against manufacturer's defects for an unlimited time. Should a product fail due to a defect in materials or craftsmanship, we will, at our option, repair or replace the item at no cost to the original owner. This guarantee does not cover normal wear and tear or misuse. Please clean your sleeping bag before returning it for repairs.


I called and talked with them in order to get a mating zipper for a mitylite bag we made in to a quilt that zipped to a sleeping pad coupler. They were very helpful and sold me the zippers.

The zippers don't weigh enough to bother replacing. Carry a thimble full less water ;)


Gravity

[SurferNerd]

From their website : Guarantee & Warranty
All Western Mountaineering products are guaranteed against manufacturer's defects for an unlimited time. Should a product fail due to a defect in materials or craftsmanship, we will, at our option, repair or replace the item at no cost to the original owner. This guarantee does not cover normal wear and tear or misuse. Please clean your sleeping bag before returning it for repairs.


I called and talked with them in order to get a mating zipper for a mitylite bag we made in to a quilt that zipped to a sleeping pad coupler. They were very helpful and sold me the zippers.

The zippers don't weigh enough to bother replacing. Carry a thimble full less water ;)


Gravity

Awesome, I just couldn't find that on the site. That lifetime warranty right there, that makes that $35 worth it now..

[simplespirit]

Well, I had never heard of them until 10 seconds ago. I did some hunting on their site. And here's my differences. The closest one in comparison is 1 oz heavier, $35 more expensive, and even though its made in the US, you can't buy directly from them, dealers only, which means buying local, paying taxes, and premium prices from their MSRP. And I can't find a word about a warranty anywhere on their site. But I did like the opinion. Thanks

Western > FF

You only looked at total weight. The WM Ultralite (29 oz) has 16 oz fill which is more comparable to the FF Swallow (31 oz) than the Hummingbird. WM bags have a lifetime warranty against defects.

http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=About&page=Product%20Details&viewpost=2&ContentId=3

You can also buy them online through dealers (no taxes but you might pay shipping). http://backcountrygear.com/catalog/bagdetail.cfm/WE2199 is one site. You can occassionaly find them on sale but it's very rare.

Edit: Little late on the warranty but the rest of the info is good.

[futureatwalker]

If you know it's going to be a bitter cold night - clear skies, high pressure, even fresh snow - one possibility is to boil some water, place it in your water bottle and make sure it's closed (!), and put it in the bottom of your bag.

I've done this using a nalgene bottle, which works well because it is so thick. Your feet will be warm all night!

[SurferNerd]

If you know it's going to be a bitter cold night - clear skies, high pressure, even fresh snow - one possibility is to boil some water, place it in your water bottle and make sure it's closed (!), and put it in the bottom of your bag.

I've done this using a nalgene bottle, which works well because it is so thick. Your feet will be warm all night!

I was considering this idea using my MSR Dromlite 2 liter.

[Johnny Swank]

I think you'll be fine as long as you had a few trick up your sleeve for the really cold nights. I used a mylar emergency bag as a liner for a few bitter nights during my SOBO. It was loud as hell, but worth its weight in gold for the 6-8 uses I got out of it before it shredded.

[buz]

Surfer,

How big are you? The FF model and some WM models are not very "girthy" and depending on how you sleep can be too confining, at least for me. I am a side sleeper, 6', 175#, not a big person, and the WM smaller models were not workable for me. Again, test sleeping before committing big money is the only way I would buy something so significant. Perhaps going to REI and looking carefully at girth specs, getting in some smaller girth bags at the store will let you figure out ahead of time what would be best size. Also, don't rule out Marmot bags, which the REI near me has in stock. They are very quality bags, and you can try them out for free, at least laying in them at the store for size.

[SurferNerd]

Ladies and Gentleman, I have a winner. I went down to REI this morning and fell in love with the REI Sub Kilo 20* Bag. It weighs 2oz more than my FF or WM models, and its unreal at $239.99. So thanks for all the input, I'm gonna make this bag work, whether I use a liner or pad yet I'll wait until winter to know.

[buz]

Well, good for you. I think fit is the most important feature and you got in one and it obviously works well, size wise. Any decent made bag with enough "stuffing" can work to very low temps with proper layering and pad selection. That is stuff you will need to fine tune now. And that is really only achievable in cold weather. Good luck.

[Monkeywrench]

I have a Western Mountaineering Summerlite Long. It's a beautiful piece of gear.

[Monkeywrench]

If you know it's going to be a bitter cold night - clear skies, high pressure, even fresh snow - one possibility is to boil some water, place it in your water bottle and make sure it's closed (!), and put it in the bottom of your bag.

I've done this using a nalgene bottle, which works well because it is so thick. Your feet will be warm all night!

I do that when winter camping. I don't boil the water, but I do heat it until it's very warm. You have to sleep with your water bottles anyway to keep them from freezing, and I'd much rather sleep with warm water bottles than cold ones! One down by my feet and another tucked into my stomach feel wonderful.

[Pickleodeon]

on the cayenne pepper.. take capsules with you. (you can get them at Wal-mart, etc, with the supplements) take one or two before bed. It's like alcohol's "sweater on the inside" feel minus the weight. Increases blood flow.

[SurferNerd]

on the cayenne pepper.. take capsules with you. (you can get them at Wal-mart, etc, with the supplements) take one or two before bed. It's like alcohol's "sweater on the inside" feel minus the weight. Increases blood flow.

That's definitely a new one..since I adore hot foods and eat habanero's like candy, I'm sure I could concock something to battle the cold internally. I was at REI again today, got to play with a Sea to Summit Mummy Liner, its like the size of a nalgene bottle, weighs 8 ounces, and adds 10* warmth.

[Mister Bow Willow]

Ladies and Gentleman, I have a winner. I went down to REI this morning and fell in love with the REI Sub Kilo 20* Bag. It weighs 2oz more than my FF or WM models, and its unreal at $239.99. So thanks for all the input, I'm gonna make this bag work, whether I use a liner or pad yet I'll wait until winter to know.

I've had one for a couple of years and plan on taking it on my thru hike.

Pros:
- Good weight / temp rating / price tradeoff;
- it works fine in a tent with a silk liner at 20* -- at least for me. I'd be willing to use it down to single digits with extra clothes and a hot water Nalgene.

Cons:
- I'd really prefer a bit more girth, particularly in the upper leg area;
- If you are a side sleeper and switch sides, it takes a while for the down to fluff back up; previously I used a synthethic North Face bag and that wasn't an issue
- most reviews claim that the temp rating is overstated by at least 10 degrees. For, me sleeping without a tent and moderate breeze in the 30's is right on the edge of its capabilities.

All in all, I've been happy with it.

[Frosty]

- most reviews claim that the temp rating is overstated by at least 10 degrees.That's always the problem buying bags. The temp rating is decided upon by the marketing department.

My 30* Wm is a lot warmer than my 20* NF.

[SurferNerd]

on the cayenne pepper.. take capsules with you. (you can get them at Wal-mart, etc, with the supplements) take one or two before bed. It's like alcohol's "sweater on the inside" feel minus the weight. Increases blood flow.

I bought 500 empty capsules last night, and since I've got about a pound of cayenne in my spice rack, I'll fill the caps myself. Thanks for the idea!

[SurferNerd]

I've had one for a couple of years and plan on taking it on my thru hike.

Pros:
- Good weight / temp rating / price tradeoff;
- it works fine in a tent with a silk liner at 20* -- at least for me. I'd be willing to use it down to single digits with extra clothes and a hot water Nalgene.

Cons:
- I'd really prefer a bit more girth, particularly in the upper leg area;
- If you are a side sleeper and switch sides, it takes a while for the down to fluff back up; previously I used a synthethic North Face bag and that wasn't an issue
- most reviews claim that the temp rating is overstated by at least 10 degrees. For, me sleeping without a tent and moderate breeze in the 30's is right on the edge of its capabilities.

All in all, I've been happy with it.

I'm definitely bringing the Sea to Summit Mummy Liner then, and I've been looking at a sleeping pad. Any ideas there?

[Dazzy001]

Just get a silk liner, for that bag and go for it, if it gets real chilly use your emergancy blanket too....

[SurferNerd]

Just get a silk liner, for that bag and go for it, if it gets real chilly use your emergancy blanket too....

Probably a good idea, I've already got the emergency blanket

[gravityman]

Probably a good idea, I've already got the emergency blanket

My crystal ball is saying you'll be dropping some serious cash at Neel's Gap to get a WM when you find out this bag just ain't warm enough. But it's been known to be wrong :)

[buz]

Just reading the reviews at REI would have me personally concerned about temp rating. But again, you have a lot of time, and practice camp in the low temps would be your best way to figure this out. But I think you live in florida, a tougher proposition to get low temps this fall. Maybe look a little harder at your planned warm layers and maybe more importantly again figure out fit of the bag. Can you put your warm layers on you or in the bag without compressing the insulation?

[SurferNerd]

Just reading the reviews at REI would have me personally concerned about temp rating. But again, you have a lot of time, and practice camp in the low temps would be your best way to figure this out. But I think you live in florida, a tougher proposition to get low temps this fall. Maybe look a little harder at your planned warm layers and maybe more importantly again figure out fit of the bag. Can you put your warm layers on you or in the bag without compressing the insulation?

I live in TN, we get snow here every year at least once. I'm thinking of this Marmot I also tried out, but I just can't justify the extra funds. We'll just have to wait until winter and find out. I'm taking the bag, a liner, and so far a sleeping pad

[buz]

Well then save your receipt, keep it clean, camp on a very cold weekend and see. Best and only way to figure out pretrail. Practice will be good anyway. Hope it works for you. If not, take it back, or buy better layers or better/warmer bag. Sleep temp is very individual thing.

[gravityman]

I live in TN, we get snow here every year at least once. I'm thinking of this Marmot I also tried out, but I just can't justify the extra funds. We'll just have to wait until winter and find out. I'm taking the bag, a liner, and so far a sleeping pad

Can't justify $100 extra for a bag that will keep you warm? Wait until you're first really cold night, 3 days away from town, and cold temps predicted. Then you'll justify it. Even better for the first time you decide not to leave town because of the cold temps.

A good sleeping bag is worth the money, as it will last 20 years... (although my oldest 'good' one is only 7 years old right now, it looks new. Doesn't smell new, but it looks new :)

[Red Hat]

Can't justify $100 extra for a bag that will keep you warm? Wait until you're first really cold night, 3 days away from town, and cold temps predicted. Then you'll justify it. Even better for the first time you decide not to leave town because of the cold temps.

A good sleeping bag is worth the money, as it will last 20 years... (although my oldest 'good' one is only 7 years old right now, it looks new. Doesn't smell new, but it looks new :)

I was cheap and bought an off brand down bag back in 2003. It was okay but I sure was glad to find a deal on a used Western Mountaineering. There is no comparison! It is really warm and cozy comfy. I suggest you take that one back to REI as soon as you can and start looking for deals on WM bags...

[Marta]

One of the differences in the down with 650 fill power and 800 fill power is that the lower numbered one has spinier feathers. Those spiny feathers break up and lose their loft much more quickly than the all-fluff down of the higher fill power down.

The really nice bags have all sorts of other features, like a slight stiffening along the zipper so you don't get the flap stuck when you're zipping up the bag, and that sort of thing.

If you can't spring for the expensive bag, you can't. But a really nice bag will last so much longer, and perform so much better over its lifetime, that it's worth some effort to try to find a used one, or one on sale.

[SurferNerd]

I got the Sub Kilo 20 on sale at REI two days ago, so far I've slept in it once, and I plan to take it NC with me labor day weekend for a 3day hike. I bought the sea to summit reactor liner, and I have not had any issues yet or feel I will.

[The Old Fhart]

Pickleodeon-"on the cayenne pepper.. take capsules with you. (you can get them at Wal-mart, etc, with the supplements) take one or two before bed. It's like alcohol's "sweater on the inside" feel minus the weight. Increases blood flow."There is no free ride. alcohol makes your extremities feel warm by dilating blood vessels and increasing flow to the extremities but that heat comes from the body core. Any substance like alcohol, coffee, etc., that acts as a diuretic should not be used because the overall effect is loss of more energy in the form of heat and this could lead to hypothermia.

The best plan is to carry a warm enough bag to get you through the coldest night, or a bag/extra clothing/tent combination that will keep you warm. Keep in mind that all other thing being equal, more loft equals more heat retention. If you wear the biggest fluffy down parka inside a tight fitting bag so you're compressing the bag's and parka's insulation, you're not getting any more loft or more heat retention. You should either get a bag with a little extra room to allow wearing extra clothing without compression, use an overbag to increase heat retention, or carry a bag with a lower rating.

As others have said, insulation between you and the ground is very important as well. the bags insulation under you will be compressed and add little to keeping you warm. A thicker pad in winter is a good idea.

[SurferNerd]

There is no free ride. alcohol makes your extremities feel warm by dilating blood vessels and increasing flow to the extremities but that heat comes from the body core. Any substance like alcohol, coffee, etc., that acts as a diuretic should not be used because the overall effect is loss of more energy in the form of heat and this could lead to hypothermia.

The best plan is to carry a warm enough bag to get you through the coldest night, or a bag/extra clothing/tent combination that will keep you warm. Keep in mind that all other thing being equal, more loft equals more heat retention. If you wear the biggest fluffy down parka inside a tight fitting bag so you're compressing the bag's and parka's insulation, you're not getting any more loft or more heat retention. You should either get a bag with a little extra room to allow wearing extra clothing without compression, use an overbag to increase heat retention, or carry a bag with a lower rating.

As others have said, insulation between you and the ground is very important as well. the bags insulation under you will be compressed and add little to keeping you warm. A thicker pad in winter is a good idea.

Since my pack weight is so low, I'm looking into a pad to take the entire trail.

[hoyawolf]

the best thing you can do is a short brisk walk before you get into your sack - or some pushups, etc. this will get the blood flowing to warm you. alcohol is counterproductive - for warming you that is!

if you are worried about weight with a pad go with a 3/4 or cut a foam pad in half and use your pack under legs/feet.

[Bare Bear]

A cheap safety item is to take a HD trash bag and on really cold nights use it as an outer cover around your feet and legs. Problem is it can make you sweat as there is no venting or moisture release. I always carry a bag cut so that I can lay it down on the shelter floor as floors are filthy, and it blocks the wind from blowing up. It also works well as the tent footprint when I tent out which is 90% of the time. Shelters are for really rainy nights.

[trouthunter]

One word of caution about wearing thermals in your bag, do not wear the same thermals you wore during the day, they will be holding your bodies moisture. It is best to put on dry, fresh thermals to supplement your bag.
You should be okay with a 20* bag if you have sufficient base layers to make up the difference, don't underestimate the importance of a cap.

You should never take anything damp in your bag either, the old wives tale about drying your boots in the bag with you is a terrible idea. Moisture is your enemy!!

[Lyle]

Sleeping pad is also SUPER important. A z-rest will freeze me, a prolite 3 is plenty for me.

Gravity

In my experience in making a three-season bag work year-round, I would agree whole-heartedly with this statement. The pad will be much more critical. You can add a lot of extra warmth with very little weight by adding a cheap blue pad to whatever else you will be carrying. You will be amazed at what a difference that makes. Adding more clothing will not solve the problem if the ground or shelter floor is sucking the heat from you.

During real cold, I like to have one full-length pad and one 3/4 or torso length. This usually means a 3/4 TR and full-length blue pad. A cheap, light, and effective solution. You can then add some extra clothing if it's needed and will actually notice the difference.

That's been my experience when stretching a 15* bag into sub-zero temps relatively successfully.

[gonewalkabout]

Remember as you "20 degree" bag if that is really what it is gets drity from you and you surrendings and as you sweet into it night after night the dirt and oils along with the mositure will cause it to lose its loftand thus wramth. How's that for a run on sentrance! I general find I need to wash my bag after 20-30 nights to get the loft back and I tend to keep my bag clean. You may want to start with a warmer bag or a down sweater you can use as a balnket in you bag. It also keep you warm around the camp. On the LT in Nov of 04 I froze my you know off usingan EMS 20 degree bag while wearing a down sweater and using a bivy sac. This time around I am going to use a better bag like a mountain hardware phanptom 15 or a momot 15. Be sure t use goodground insulation as well. A z rest opnly has an R value of 2.3 not enough for 20 or lower. Add a second pad and give it away when it warms up.

[gonewalkabout]

PS I now belavie its better to use you down sweater as a blanket in the bag rather than wearing it. While wearing it might keep you core warmer you arms, hands,, etc won't transfer heat as easily to you upper body or the other way around since they will be insulated from eachother. Only a theory. Let me know what you experience is.

[mudhead]

Plus when you crawl out, you have one less thing to put on.

[daddytwosticks]

"I now belavie its better to use you down sweater as a blanket in the bag rather than wearing it." Gonewalkabout, I've heard this theory before about using an insulated jacket draped over you in the bag, rather than wearing it. Not to hyjack the thread, but can someone explain the science about this technique, or is it a myth? Thanks.

[Blissful]

A silk liner is a great way to keep your bag clean and add warmth at the same time. Then you wash the liner. Some don't like the way it bunches, but that really didn't happen to me except getting in and out of the bag in the middle of the night.

[TheChamp]

Test out the REI bag this winter, if you're cold at 25-30*, take it back and buy the Western Mountaineering bag (Alpinlite is sweet) like everyone else recommended. You might as well spend the extra money now, rather than later. You asked for advice, it's been given...numerous times.

[SurferNerd]

Well after hitting a nice cold chilly 42*F night last week, I spent a night in the backyard in my tent. I had my Tarptent Contrail, my ThermaRest Prolite 3, REI Sub Kilo 20, and my Sea to Summit Liner. I didnt use the liner , and I ended up waking up sweaty. So we'll see when it gets colder in a few weeks.

[gonewalkabout]

"I now belavie its better to use you down sweater as a blanket in the bag rather than wearing it." Gonewalkabout, I've heard this theory before about using an insulated jacket draped over you in the bag, rather than wearing it. Not to hyjack the thread, but can someone explain the science about this technique, or is it a myth? Thanks.

While wearing a down jackect in your bag will keep you core warmer (assuming the bag is bigger enough that its loft is not compressed from the inside by you and your thick jacket) the jacket will trap heat and you will not warm the air in the bag as much as if you were not wearing the jacket so you limbs and extermities may get colder. Its like wearing a mitten Vs. a glove with fingers. Each finger in a mitten helps to keep the one next to it warm. To keep you hands as warm in a glove as in a mitten you need a much thicker glove. By using a blankect (your down sweater) in the bag you increase loft and heat the air in the bag more thus staying warmer.

[taildragger]

Use the jacket to increase overall heatloss prevention. A jacket on the bag will provide a wider range of insulation (range being amount of body affected) since it is focused on a point of heat removal from the bag itself instead of just part of the body.

Thats my theory, and I'm currently sticking to it.

[Montana AT05]

20 degree bag is fine.

Your current bag will be fine.

Just throw a silk liner in (square cut if possible--easier to get in an out of).

Just be sure to have one warm and DRY set of camp clothes. For early season, check out Merino Wools stuff (expensive though). Icebreaker makes awesome stuff.

It's wetness that will hurt you out there--on the AT in March. Not cold.

I used a cheap 20 degree bag for the first 450 miles of trail. Yes, there were some cold nights, but nothing dangerous. I also used the silk liner and at the time, fleece. Ick.

A bag with a good neck baffle helps too.

If you find you want a new bag, check into Montbell Brand (Super Stretch Down Huggers). I use a few of those (15 degree and a 35 degree). They are VERY warm for their ratings and they aren;t confining due to the stretch technology--plus they pack down really small for their rating.

Also, if you plan to tent, a tent will add warmth (though beware, most bag temp ratings already factor in the added warmth from a tent-like shelter).

[SurferNerd]

So last night gave my the best example of cold weather hiking yet. I had my REI Sub Kilo, my Sea to Summit Liner, and slept in my Patagonia 3 long johns over a Prolite3. I was toasty the entire night with no issues of cold. The weather went down to 19*F, and we had good gusts of 20mph winds in the shelter. I feel confident my setup will function properly.

[buz]

good for u, testing is the only way to tell. I think u live in TN, so maybe one more extreme test if u can during the winter will clear up any questions. Try a weekend or overnight coming up when the temp will get maybe 10 degrees colder with same set up, and I think you will be for sure good to go for your hike if you stay warm on your practice. There is a major difference, (besides 10 degrees lol) in 19 and like 10 temp at night in your gears' ability to fight it. But you also should only see that temp very rarely in your hike at the beginning, if you start early March.

[Zia]

I plan on starting my nobo thru hike the first week of April. I own a WM 30 degree bag. Do ya'll think it will work with my spring start?

[garlic08]

Zia;

I left on April 4 and had several nights down to 15*. But I knew they were coming and decided to keep hiking, since I was prepared. I could easily have bailed, which I would have if I had a 30* bag.

[Zia]

thanks Garlic. I just didn't want to carry an extra pound if I didn't have too.

[Chicken Feathers]

Why not mail light bag and start off with 15-20 degree bag. You for sure want a 15-20 degree bag thru the Smokies. Thats my 2 cents worth Have a great trip

[SurferNerd]

I plan on starting my nobo thru hike the first week of April. I own a WM 30 degree bag. Do ya'll think it will work with my spring start?

The REI Sub Kilo I'm using is just over a pound. It's great quality, and very lightweight. It works down into the teens with a liner. But I'm also warm-blooded.

[Colter]

It's a very subjective subject, as you're finding out. If I were you I'd feel pretty confident with that bag now that you've tested it. Boosting the rating by wearing insulating layers and carrying a good pad is smart. Last summer on the CDT I wore my Montbell down jacket in my Feathered Friends Rock Wren bag (a valued veteran of thousands of trail miles) pretty often. I was delighted with both items. Personally, I feel I get more warmth out of a jacket by wearing it rather than using it as a blanket because it's staying where I want it to be, and the sleeves, for example, are covering my arms rather than just dangling off to the sides somewhere.

On a(nother) side note I frequently wear damp (not soaked) clothing to bed, mostly because I rarely have a second set of dry clothing. I DO try to keep a set of dry socks to sleep in, and in general my long underwear is dry because when I hike I'm warm enough without them. If my legs are cold while hiking I'll put on rain pants. Standard for me in cold weather is to slip on my dry long bottoms and dry socks before I crawl into my bag. I dry damp stuff in my bag often and under normal conditions your body heat will not allow moisture to build up too much because your bag will breathe. You may get some condensation on the shell of the bag, but your insulation will stay dry and fluffy and that's what counts.