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Rain Man
08-06-2008, 17:05
From Yahoo/AP news--

"Convoy rescued after GPS led them to Utah cliff"

GPS led group to a dead end. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_travel/20080806/ap_tr_ge/travel_brief_lost_convoy)

Some excerpts--

"A GPS device led a convoy of tourists astray, finally stranding them on the edge of a sheer cliff.

"With little food or water, the group of 10 children and 16 adults from California had to spend a night in their cars deep inside the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument.

"They used a global positioning device to plot out a backcountry route Saturday from Bryce Canyon National Park to the Grand Canyon.

"But the device couldn't tell how rough the roads were. One vehicle got stuck in soft sand, two others ran low on fuel. And the device offered suggestions that led them onto the wrong dirt roads, which ended at a series of cliffs.

"The group was so lost it couldn't figure out how to backtrack and started to panic. Kids were crying, and one infant was sick with fever, according to a member of the party. ...

"Glover said a GPS device is no substitute for good judgment or detailed topographical maps. ...

"It took a lot of back-and-forth cell phone calls, but sheriff's deputies were able to find the group Sunday and lead them back out to Cannonville.

"It wasn't the first time Staircase visitors have wandered into near oblivion. Dozens have been stranded since the monument was created in 1996, often with the false encouragement of a GPS device, said Bureau of Land Management spokesman Larry Crutchfield."

Lesson? Carry and know how to use a compass and topo maps! And if you do use GPS as a crutch, ... know how to use, and not use, it too.

Rain:sunMan

.

Mags
08-06-2008, 17:10
It is WILDERNESS in that part of Utah.

They are lucky.

Beautiful terrain, but not terrain for the ill-prepared.

ChinMusic
08-06-2008, 17:18
I'm guessing that if they can't read a map on a GPS that they can't read a map on paper either.

This reads as "user error" to me, with the blame being placed on the tool.

wilconow
08-06-2008, 17:25
I am in no way advocating having a car GPS and no map, but in a driving adventure on unpaved roads through a holler near the northern part of the Smokies, I was quite impressed with the accuracy of my TomTom

Skidsteer
08-06-2008, 17:27
Good thing they had a cell signal.

gravityman
08-06-2008, 18:01
It's one thing when you are on foot in a fairly normal terrain and you can hike more or less point to point. However, when you are in a vehicle and relying on roads that aren't on the GPS unit, how do you expect to know how to get out other than backtrack.

They should have backtracked LONG before.

You always carry extra gas and 2 spare tires in that kind of backcountry. It's for real in Utah! Even if you are in a car.

ed bell
08-06-2008, 19:32
I'm guessing that if they can't read a map on a GPS that they can't read a map on paper either.

This reads as "user error" to me, with the blame being placed on the tool.


Good thing they had a cell signal.Both of these observations are right on. Although I'll wager that the GPS gave them confidence that got them in trouble. Anybody that has used a vehicle GPS knows that they can be pretty handy while traveling in unknown areas. Problem is that once the pavement runs out, there are no guarantees of road quality or continuity, especially in the wilderness in canyon country.

whitefoot_hp
08-06-2008, 20:00
this incident says nothing for GPS technology. the gps did its job. just as any fool looking a map can assume he is equipped to get from point a to point b, some fool can look at a gps and assume that it shows him a route that his car can take.

the issue here is information literacy. the GPS provides a certain amount of information. it tells you a road is here. does it tell you if your vehicle can make it? no. it takes not being an ignorant fool to decipher that one. a map nor a gps can take care of that for you.

fiddlehead
08-06-2008, 20:32
Well, I'm using a GPS to help me try designing a trail.

Without it, I don't know if i could do it.
There are no maps available here (Phuket) with any detail that would show any of the small roads, steep mtns, that i am coming across. Google Earth and my GPS are the only ways.

Of course, it these people would've had Google Earth and knew how to use it, they wouldn't have had these problems.

Sometimes there is no substitute for a GPS.

Rain Man
08-06-2008, 23:08
I have read lots of reports of GPS sending big trucks down tiny roads and dead-ends, especially in England, and generally causing problems.

I agree that the problems are dummies relying on the technology to substitute for good judgment and actual knowledge.

Rain:sunMan

.

Sly
08-06-2008, 23:26
I suspect dummies would have trouble reading a map too.

ed bell
08-06-2008, 23:38
<snip>

I agree that the problems are dummies relying on the technology to substitute for good judgment and actual knowledge.

Rain:sunMan

.A map and compass ain't fixing that.

Bob S
08-06-2008, 23:41
It sounds like these people were stupid; a map would not have given them any more brain cells.

The gene pool need a little chlorine.

Marta
08-07-2008, 04:54
...Sitting outside at Standing Bear Farm as car after car comes down the gravel road asking, "Is this the way to Gatlinburg?"

I think that was MapQuest, though.

Catnip
08-07-2008, 05:44
I have a hand-held GPS, Garmin 60CSx, not primarily for in-car use, but I told it to take me to the local YMCA just to see how it would do. It had me jumping off a bridge from a limited-access highway to get to a local road, didn't realize there was no interchange there, LOL! So I know better than to trust the turn-by-turn directions while driving (though it works great for my intended backpacking and geocaching uses).

take-a-knee
08-07-2008, 08:02
A few people in this thread have opined that there was nothing wrong with these folks GPS, that it was user error on their part. Their first and biggest mistake was not having a paper map and a magnetic compass. Any GPS unit, and this includes those with digital maps (with their nearly useless tiny little screens) is no substitute for a map/compass and the skill to use them.

I own and use a Garmin Etrex, I'm not foolhardy enough to carry it sans map. A GPS cannot impress into your brain a 3D perspective of the terrain you are surrounded by, only a map and map skills can do that. The GPS can only locate your location on said map, if it works and if you have a map.

Western hunters use the term getting "cliffed out" to refer to what happened to these folks.

Two Speed
08-07-2008, 08:07
Western hunters use the term getting "cliffed out" to refer to what happened to these folks.Never heard that phrase, but it makes sense and must suck in a big way. Got that "I am such a stinkin' dim bulb" problem attached to it if you do it to yourself more than once. :cool:

Sly
08-07-2008, 08:47
Western hunters use the term getting "cliffed out" to refer to what happened to these folks.

Western hikers too. ;)

take-a-knee
08-07-2008, 09:11
Never heard that phrase, but it makes sense and must suck in a big way. Got that "I am such a stinkin' dim bulb" problem attached to it if you do it to yourself more than once. :cool:

To prove I'm not anti-GPS, the track-back function on a GPS will prevent getting cliffed-out from happening to you during a period of limited visibility, enabling you to retrace your steps. A GPS unit is a valuable tool, but it is only part of the tool kit.

mudhead
08-07-2008, 09:23
No shame in having to backtrack.

My opinion.

OregonHiker
08-07-2008, 09:49
To prove I'm not anti-GPS, the track-back function on a GPS will prevent getting cliffed-out from happening to you during a period of limited visibility, enabling you to retrace your steps. A GPS unit is a valuable tool, but it is only part of the tool kit.

Not to nit pick but...

Cliffed out actually refers not to arriving at the top of a cliff, but the act of climbing partially up, or down, and then becoming stuck on said cliff.

Two Speed
08-07-2008, 09:51
Wouldn't be surprised to find out the phrase is used in a coupla ways, kinda like the way we use the phrase "stealth camping."

Mags
08-07-2008, 09:55
I've always used "cliffed out" in the same way TAK says: Coming to an area where you can't ascend/descend because of, well, cliffs. :)

Others I know use the word the same way.

As Two Speed said, it probably can be used several different, but similar, ways.

Climbers and hikers may use it different, for example.

mudhead
08-07-2008, 09:57
After you edit that, I agree.

fiddlehead
08-07-2008, 10:00
I only have an etrex myself with no topo lines.
But my brother has an expensive Garmin (don't know which model) that shows topo lines the same as the 7 1/2 min. USGS maps.

Anyway, i was out on an awesome bushwhack today with only my etrex and a few points i put in there from google earth. Saw one 2 metre long cobra.

I do believe it's the way of the future and for me, sometimes the future is now. (especially when there is no map available)

Ideally, (eventually) we'll have google earth with us on a decent screen. (with the tilt feature) But, i'm just trailblazin, so no hurry. I do what i can in a day, put in a few waypoints, go back to the internet and GE and put a few more waypoints in. Going back out tomorrow. So far, i've gone out about 12 days and covered about 6 miles. (straight line miles, or crow flies miles anyway)

Mags
08-07-2008, 10:02
After you edit that, I agree.


Er..yes, just noticed that. :)

Danke!

The Old Fhart
08-07-2008, 10:06
Topo maps on a GPS do give you the information you need but it is annoying to try to see the 'big picture' and having to scroll or zoom out and lose detail. However GPS units like the Garmin 60CSx do a pretty good job of displaying the contours. Just so people can get some idea what is being discussed here, I've attached a rather lo-res screen shot of the Mount Washington summit area. Just above the '5052' you can see the cirque of the Great Gulf and know that that has very steep sides. The Garmin 60CSx also has a real time flux gate compass as well as using the vector math to calculate direction.
4522

fiddlehead
08-07-2008, 10:13
Topo maps on a GPS do give you the information you need but it is annoying to try to see the 'big picture' and having to scroll or zoom out and lose detail. However GPS units like the Garmin 60CSx do a pretty good job of displaying the contours. Just so people can get some idea what is being discussed here, I've attached a rather lo-res screen shot of the Mount Washington summit area. Just above the '5052' you can see the cirque of the Great Gulf and know that that has very steep sides. The Garmin 60CSx also has a real time flux gate compass as well as using the vector math to calculate direction.
4522

Wow, that's pretty incredible. Sure wish i had some detail like that here. But then, i guess i wouldn't be going out there trailblazin.

mudhead
08-07-2008, 10:20
But then, i guess i wouldn't be going out there trailblazin.

That was the first thing that came to my mind, after reading about 2' cobras.

Part of life there, I suppose.

ChinMusic
08-07-2008, 10:26
Western hunters use the term getting "cliffed out" to refer to what happened to these folks.
I was CLOSE to getting "cliffed out" once in Arizona. Not a fun deal, could have been ugly. This flat-land, Illinois boy learned a lesson that day.......:eek:

fiddlehead
08-07-2008, 10:36
That was the first thing that came to my mind, after reading about 2' cobras.

Part of life there, I suppose.

He was big but moving fast away from me.
Thai people think i'm nuts because of cobras but when you ask them if they know anyone who has been bit, they almost always say no.

They seem to like me about as much as i like them. (by the way: 2 metres, not 2 feet)(that's about 6 1/2 feet!)
Hey, you get tired of the beach after a while.

The Old Fhart
08-07-2008, 10:43
Here is a screen capture of Baxter Peak on Katahdin. The Knife Edge goes between South Peak and Chimney Peak and you can see the drop-off on the north (Chimney Pond) side. There is an error on the map because Pamola is the peak just to the NE of Chimney Peak where the Dudley Trail comes up, it isn't part way down the cliff on the Knife Edge.

All mapping software databases have some problems, some intentional. One map database I had showed the 'Gonic Institute of Technology', which doesn't exist. This is the way the map program owners can spot copies of their databases by other companies.
4525

Alligator
08-07-2008, 11:14
...
All mapping software databases have some problems, some intentional. One map database I had showed the 'Gonic Institute of Technology', which doesn't exist. This is the way the map program owners can spot copies of their databases by other companies.
4525NOW you tell me:datz. I drove around all day looking for that:(. I thought Gonic was just misspelled.

Mags
08-07-2008, 11:18
http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&q=Gonic+Institute+of+Technology&fb=1&view=text&latlng=5259056439712877267

:)

The Old Fhart
08-07-2008, 11:21
Alligator-"NOW you tell me:datz. I drove around all day looking for that:(. I thought Gonic was just misspelled."Two other misconceptions I'd like to clear up: 1) Gonic isn't the name of a social disease; 2) residents of Gonic aren't called 'gonicologists'.;)

Alligator
08-07-2008, 11:25
http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&q=Gonic+Institute+of+Technology&fb=1&view=text&latlng=5259056439712877267

:)Thanks, but I saw my regular doctor when I got home and he gave me some cefixime.

Sly
08-07-2008, 11:26
Hey TOF, how do you do the Garmin screenshots??

The Old Fhart
08-07-2008, 12:28
Sly-"Hey TOF, how do you do the Garmin screenshots??"
Sly, xImage is a Garmin free download. Get it here (http://www8.garmin.com/support/agree.jsp?id=545). Check that your GPS is on the list to make sure it will work.

Sly
08-07-2008, 13:18
Sly, xImage is a Garmin free download. Get it here (http://www8.garmin.com/support/agree.jsp?id=545). Check that your GPS is on the list to make sure it will work.

Thanks. The Legend C is on the OK to download list. Neat feature.

NICKTHEGREEK
08-08-2008, 06:09
I suspect dummies would have trouble reading a map too.
Yeah, what they need are a white stripe painted on trees every 30 yards or so.