electrolytes

[wanashunkaha]

I normally drink a lot of water. I'm sure that intake will increase while hiking. Is there any way to maintain electrolyte levels other than gatorade type drinks?

[Phreak]

Endurolytes (http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=PRODUCT&CAT=ELECT&PROD.ID=4037&OMI=10104,10082,10047&AMI=10104). I've been using 'em for years and they do the trick.

[Skidsteer]

Bananas and other high potassium foods (http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/food/potassium-foods.htm). Cytomax (http://www.trisports.com/cytomax.html), Emergen-c (http://www.emergenc.com/).

Do a search on WB for dehydration and electrolytes. You'll find lots of suggestions.

[FritztheCat]

I actually drink Pedialite (yeah, the kid stuff) after a particularly long hike. They make flavors and even single-size servings.

[orangebug]

Gorp, cheese and other snacks can help replace electrolytes. The type of electrolytes are important. Ceasar said that salt is worth its weight in gold for an army on the march. Replacement is vital, giving you the opportunity to eat much of the bad stuff you shouldn't have at home. Calcium is suprisingly helpful to reduce your risk of muscle cramping. Of course you can bring your favorite variety of sports drink mixes. They are all good.

[Tennessee Viking]

I usually carry some Propel powder. I just started using Emergen-C. If you can find them, salt pills.

Some good snacks are
Peanut Butter crackers, trail mix, granola, jerky

[Cuffs]

Theres new stuff out NUUN. NO sugar, http://www.nuun.com/

I like it!

[minnesotasmith]

IMO they have way too much sodium and too little potassium, the vitamins are all synthetic-origin, and they tend to be pointlessly supplemented with loads of sugar. Most people, including hikers, get way more sodium than they need in their food. Better to stay with water, decaf green tea, fruit juice such as actual orange juice (NOT oil-refinery-origin seeming fakes such as Tang or Sunny unDelight) or purple grape juice, skim milk, etc. With freezing quarts or half gallons of milk/juice the night before, powdered skim milk quart envelopes, the juice concentrate cans, tea bags or the 1-serving powder packets of green tea concentrates, etc., it's possible for hikers to enjoy these drinks frequently on the trail.

[sonic]

I have used "sport beans" for some time. I have an issue with potassium and they help in that regard as well. They can be purchased at REI, most bike shops, etc. I like jelly beans so they are perfect for me.:D

[CherrypieScout]

This summer I used Emergen-C and took potassium tablets. No problem with muscle cramps

[budforester]

I’ve been conscientious about electrolytes, this summer: Doctor had been threatening to medicate my elevated blood pressure, so I cut daily sodium to less than 2400 mg and fixed it myself. Friends here on WB had excellent suggestions in a previous thread (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30973&highlight=sodium), for supplementing other electrolyte ions. I prefer to use food choices, rather than pills or formulated performance products, and the following are some food choices that I have been pleased with. Foremost is orange juice… thanks for that tip, guys! I haven’t located a suitable dry mix, but the shelf- stable brick packs that are marketed for kids are workable for day hikes and weekenders. Here's a link (http://www.minutemaid.com/products/OrangeJuice_and_Blends/KidsPlus.jsp). The 100% juice has a helpful amount of potassium, and is fortified with some calcium and vitamins; it’s an amazing pick- me- up! Cheese, yogurt, and powdered milk are good electrolyte sources (and protein, too). I don’t drink much milk, but milk powder goes well in cereals, soups, and sauces. I have been using more instant potatoes: in stews and soups, as side dishes, and as thickening ingredient… contributes calcium and potassium, trace sodium, good carbohydrate source. In trail snacking, dried apricots and figs are good sources; unsalted sunflower kernels add more potassium to my GORP. Unsalted or lightly- salted potato chips provide carbohydrates and fat- calories, with more calcium and potassium than some of the other snack chips.

[f8lranger4x4]

I think camelbak has tablits for your water

[darkage]

I use propel, strawberry lime myself ..

[Blissful]

I tried to eat bananas any chance I got. They really helped with muscle cramping. That and using the elctrolyte tabs that dissolve in water or similar envelope type powder..

[minnesotasmith]

I tried to eat bananas any chance I got. They really helped with muscle cramping. That and using the elctrolyte tabs that dissolve in water or similar envelope type powder..

Did you manage to find ones that were higher in potassium than in sodium? The times I've looked at them, they've all been grossly in reverse (like Gatorade, which I recommend avoiding).

[Wags]

gatorade has been working well for atheletes for like 50 years. it works fine for hikers. a simple multivitamin works for the stuff gatorade doesn't take care of

[minnesotasmith]

gatorade has been working well for atheletes for like 50 years. it works fine for hikers. a simple multivitamin works for the stuff gatorade doesn't take care of

They've been drinking it for 50 years, okay. People have been eating anti-nutritious food like Vienna sausages longer than that, too. Longevity of a mistake doesn't change it into being right.

If someone A) was on a low-salt diet otherwise, and (not "or") B) was in seriously hot, humid weather doing truly heavy exercise (harder than most hikers hike) for hours on end, then Gatorade and its many knockoffs would almost make sense IMO. That does not describe hikers as a rule. Hikers almost always get more salt than they need via sodium-heavy hiker food, and often are hiking on cooler days. Only someone who made virtually all their trail food from scratch might qualify on the low-sodium item.

Oh, and re multivits containing what hikers need that's not in Gatorade? Please give me a link to info on a vit pill that has even half of the day's potassium needs. They don't have that, any more than they commonly have more than 10% or so of calcium needs, as it's too bulky.

[orangebug]

Again, depending on sports drinks for electrolyte replacement is pretty lame. Gatorade and such are good for limited uses for dehydration and avoidance of water toxicity - but aren't all that great for hikers with sustained exertion. Dried fruit, nuts, milk powder and such can do the job quite nicely. A balance is needed, including sodium.

This topic looks like it has the chance of getting toxic, with the back and forth of one supplement versus others. The bulk of hikers will sweat more than in the city and manage to benefit with dietary sources. The trail isn't littered with dead and dying hikers with hypocalcemia, hyponatremia or hypokalemia along with dehydration.

[Trailbender]

IMO they have way too much sodium and too little potassium, the vitamins are all synthetic-origin, and they tend to be pointlessly supplemented with loads of sugar.

I don't worry about the synthetic thing. Whether "natural" or "manufactured" the vitamins are exactly the same. If the chemical structure, bond placement, location of atom, ect is the same, then it is exactly the same thing, whether manufactured or not.

[Newb]

If you come across a salt-lick...well..they're not just for deer anymore.

[earlylight]

My doctor says that you can get all the electrolytes you need from just eating regular food. I don't normally trust doctors, so I did the math. If you want some sodium, eat some crackers. If you want potasium, have some smokehouse almonds.

[map man]

It seems hikers often need to work harder to get enough potassium in their diets than sodium (I know I do). I usually bring along raisins, figs and dried apricots for potassium. They aren't quite as rich in potassium as bananas, but they keep a lot better (and don't smush!). Raisins and figs, if in a resealable bag, keep for a long time without refrigeration. Dried apricots, if in the resealable bags, will keep for three or four days without refrigeration. The drawback to these foods is that they contain 15% to 30% water and are thus heavier per calorie than some other trail foods.

[fiddlehead]

Was talking to a doctor the other day about this. Told him i used to use the sports drinks but now just eat a bag of chips and water after a strenous run.

He told me that a glass of water, with a spoonful of salt and a cut up lime in it would do the same as the sports drinks at a much reduced price.

As for vitamins: "an apple a day keeps the doctor away"
Why help make those vitamin companies all that money when you could be using it to save for your next hike?

[Appalachian Tater]

I take a multi-vitamin with minerals every day and eat what I'm hungry for. If I'm craving salty food, I eat it.

[Cuffs]

gatorade has been working well for atheletes for like 50 years. it works fine for hikers. a simple multivitamin works for the stuff gatorade doesn't take care of

Gatorade was created in 1965, so its 43...

[Cuffs]

They've been drinking it for 50 years, okay. People have been eating anti-nutritious food like Vienna sausages longer than that, too. Longevity of a mistake doesn't change it into being right.

If someone A) was on a low-salt diet otherwise, and (not "or") B) was in seriously hot, humid weather doing truly heavy exercise (harder than most hikers hike) for hours on end, then Gatorade and its many knockoffs would almost make sense IMO. That does not describe hikers as a rule. Hikers almost always get more salt than they need via sodium-heavy hiker food, and often are hiking on cooler days. Only someone who made virtually all their trail food from scratch might qualify on the low-sodium item.

Oh, and re multivits containing what hikers need that's not in Gatorade? Please give me a link to info on a vit pill that has even half of the day's potassium needs. They don't have that, any more than they commonly have more than 10% or so of calcium needs, as it's too bulky.

And your medical or dietary nutritionist degree is from what school again?

[take-a-knee]

I don't worry about the synthetic thing. Whether "natural" or "manufactured" the vitamins are exactly the same. If the chemical structure, bond placement, location of atom, ect is the same, then it is exactly the same thing, whether manufactured or not.

You got one of them there atom analyzers? If so the Nobel folks should be calling anyday now.

[take-a-knee]

And your medical or dietary nutritionist degree is from what school again?

Cuffs, your phrasing of the question implies you shouldn't have asked it in the first place. MD's have about the same nutritional knowledge as the average high school gym teacher (we all remember what Apollos and Amazons most of those folks were) and often a lot less. A dietician is trained to nourish those with a plethora of medical maladies while lying supine in a hospital bed.

If you wanted to sharpshoot MS you should have asked how much biochemistry training he's had, you'd have sounded a lot smarter.

MS has some advanced scientific training, maybe you should do likewise.

[Cuffs]

Im only stating that he has no qualifications to make the claims that he is making. I could give a rats a$$ about the proper phraseology...

[take-a-knee]

Im only stating that he has no qualifications to make the claims that he is making. I could give a rats a$$ about the proper phraseology...

I'm sure your English profs/teachers would agree:-?

So you aren't saying MS is wrong, your are just saying knowledge unaccompanied by a certain socially approved imprimater is invalid? You'd sound a lot smarter if you'd tell him he's FOS and tell us all why, if you have any idea.

[Dances with Mice]

You got one of them there atom analyzers? If so the Nobel folks should be calling anyday now.Hell, I gots me dad-gum rooms chock full of'em. I didn't know the Nobel dudes were so easily impressed.

[take-a-knee]

Hell, I gots me dad-gum rooms chock full of'em. I didn't know the Nobel dudes were so easily impressed.

Shucks, I shoulda known you'd have the most up to date scanning electron technology lying around, I'm sure you can freeze frame an electron cloud and pick it apart. I know you ain't pulling my leg by reffering to some spectral crap, are you DWM?

[Dances with Mice]

Shucks, I shoulda known you'd have the most up to date scanning electron technology lying around, I'm sure you can freeze frame an electron cloud and pick it apart. I know you ain't pulling my leg by reffering to some spectral crap, are you DWM?I can, with precision, tell when someone's trying to cloud a discussion. Let's recap:
I don't worry about the synthetic thing. Whether "natural" or "manufactured" the vitamins are exactly the same. If the chemical structure, bond placement, location of atom, ect is the same, then it is exactly the same thing, whether manufactured or not.Trailbender says, in so many words, that chemically identical substances are, well, identical. That seems reasonable since its freakin’ obvious. TAK couldn't argue with that, nobody sane can, but instead he chose to make the snarky comment:
You got one of them there atom analyzers? If so the Nobel folks should be calling anyday now. Determining chemical structure to include bond types with their relative molecular locations and associated atomic identifications down to isotopic percentages is element(-hah!-)ary, my dear TAK. Well, I'll admit some of these analyses are rather recent in the history of chemistry, having only been around for over one century now. Off-the-shelf brand name instrumentation for determining most of that has been available for about, oh say 50 years or so. Since this seems to be news, I must assume you’ve fallen seriously behind reading the technical literature.

I know what you're thinking. "Did he forget about optical isomers or not?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I might have lost track myself. But being as I have x-ray crystallography, nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy and polarized light microscopy, I could blow that argument clean off. So you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do yah, punk?

For any given substance, solid, gas, liquid or gel, including mixtures, I can determine exactly what Trailbender said, qualitative and/or quantitative, using at least two different methodologies to verify all results. You got the dough I’ll do the show. But still the Nobel Committee isn’t calling.

Life is unfair.

[minnesotasmith]

I don't worry about the synthetic thing. Whether "natural" or "manufactured" the vitamins are exactly the same. If the chemical structure, bond placement, location of atom, ect is the same, then it is exactly the same thing, whether manufactured or not.

Some synthesized vitamins commonly are actually 50/50 mixtures of the two possible orientations, called racemic mixtures. Only one of the two orientations is usable by humans, so half is waste right there. Then, there's the issue of possible interference by the waste half with the good half...

The lesson is to try as much as possible to ensure that your food can meet all your vitamin needs. That means making good decisions about what you eat, so that you frequently eat enough of high-nutrient foods (dark green vegetables, whole-grained carbohydrates, oily fish, skim milk, occasional organ meats, legumes, certain other (non-lettuce, say) vegetables).

Mineral supplements are simple enough compounds that they usually are indistinguishable from high-quality natural sources and synthetic ones. Calcium is the main exception in this area; all Ca supplements are not created equal...

[take-a-knee]

I can, with precision, tell when someone's trying to cloud a discussion. Let's recap:Trailbender says, in so many words, that chemically identical substances are, well, identical. That seems reasonable since its freakin’ obvious. TAK couldn't argue with that, nobody sane can, but instead he chose to make the snarky comment: Determining chemical structure to include bond types with their relative molecular locations and associated atomic identifications down to isotopic percentages is element(-hah!-)ary, my dear TAK. Well, I'll admit some of these analyses are rather recent in the history of chemistry, having only been around for over one century now. Off-the-shelf brand name instrumentation for determining most of that has been available for about, oh say 50 years or so. Since this seems to be news, I must assume you’ve fallen seriously behind reading the technical literature.

I know what you're thinking. "Did he forget about optical isomers or not?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I might have lost track myself. But being as I have x-ray crystallography, nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy and polarized light microscopy, I could blow that argument clean off. So you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do yah, punk?

For any given substance, solid, gas, liquid or gel, including mixtures, I can determine exactly what Trailbender said, qualitative and/or quantitative, using at least two different methodologies to verify all results. You got the dough I’ll do the show. But still the Nobel Committee isn’t calling.

Life is unfair.

Okay Obiwan, since you are on a roll, elucidate to us all why in vivo studies have shown a great deal of variation in the bioavailability of various vitamin pills, some of which are referred to by experienced nurses as "bedpan bombs". Maybe your certified "identical" vitamin pill ain't.

Oh, and if you've actually seen an atom lately, I'm sure the Nobel folks will be in touch.

[minnesotasmith]

And your medical or dietary nutritionist degree is from what school again?

I was a pre-med for 3 years as an undergraduate, graduating (aside from my geology) with 3 years of bio-major biology and comparable chemistry coursework. I have around 5 years of working in biotech. That includes: food chemistry research at General Mills, running food micro tests at another testing lab, both running the lab and overseeing the fermentation side of things at two fuel ethanol plants (propogation also at one), with publishing two papers in technical journals on the latter, not to mention a 9-month contract stint doing fermentation research (yeast and bacteria) at Cargill.
Encouraging growth of yeasts is primarily a nutrition issue (aside from pH, temperature, oxygen transfer, and limiting bacterial contamination), and much of their needs, and many of the supplements used to meet them, are similiar or identical to those of humans.

I also used to raise exotic finches for years, having a whole room full of cages. Birds having higher metabolisms than people (intensifying nutritional issues), and nutrition being a main limiting factor on breeding, meeting their nutritional needs as well as possible was a primary concern. Being reasonably scientifically literate, I was able to comprehend what I read at my university's vet school library, where I made a fair study of the subject. Birds have nutritional needs that have much in common with those of humans (aside from not generally needing vitamin C), so again I learned much that overlapped human nutrition. I managed to get several wildcaught species that rarely breed in captivity to produce, so I must have been doing something right...

I've also had an interest in the subject of human nutrition from before any of these endeavors, and have read serious (e.g., nonfad) material off and on the subject as time permitted for decades. Again, being in that small minority able to read and comprehend scientific literature has been IMO of help in becoming something of an autodidact in these fields.

Does that settle for you that I'm not some TV-addict who saw 15 minutes of a program on the Discovery channel, and thinks he knows everything on the subject?

[Dances with Mice]

Okay Obiwan, since you are on a roll, elucidate to us all why in vivo studies have shown a great deal of variation in the bioavailability of various vitamin pills, some of which are referred to by experienced nurses as "bedpan bombs". Maybe your certified "identical" vitamin pill ain't.

Oh, and if you've actually seen an atom lately, I'm sure the Nobel folks will be in touch.I don't touch body fluids without a longterm committed relationship.

We've been 'seeing' atoms (http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV1003.html)for decades. No big thing.

(Get it? 'No big thing'? Did you catch that?)

[take-a-knee]

I don't touch body fluids without a longterm committed relationship.

We've been 'seeing' atoms (http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV1003.html)for decades. No big thing.

(Get it? 'No big thing'? Did you catch that?)

Pointy electron clouds huh? Goes against all that stuff you were taught in school doesn't it?

[minnesotasmith]

1) No one has ever seen an atom, and I can't imagine they ever will. (DETECTED an atom, sure, but not the same thing.) The wavelengths of visible light are just too long to resolve something the size of an atom. (I can provide Angstrom #s for each to prove it if desired.)

2) Identical would be identical, but the definitions in use in the supplement industry for what constitutes a vitamin are often too loose. There often are discernable differences (by analytical techniques such as DWM was referring to) between vitamins of biologic and factory origin that result in differing utility when humans ingest them.

3) Dances With Mice and take a knee, you're both well-informed clever guys that I like & respect, and would enjoy hiking with anytime. I think you're both arguing different points that you're respectively correct on. Why not save the venom for the real idiots, and not each other? There are plenty of chemistry-equivalent version of Flat Earthers, young-Earth creationists, proponents of the stork hypothesis for where babies come from, vegans who say they don't need B-12 (the concentrated essence of meat), believers in the validity of astrology (not to mention the honesty of professional wrestling and career politicians), etc., to rightly castigate here on WB. Go to it. :D

[take-a-knee]

1) No one has ever seen an atom, and I can't imagine they ever will. (DETECTED an atom, sure, but not the same thing.) The wavelengths of visible light are just too long to resolve something the size of an atom. (I can provide Angstrom #s for each to prove it if desired.)

2) Identical would be identical, but the definitions in use in the supplement industry for what constitutes a vitamin are often too loose. There often are discernable differences (by analytical techniques such as DWM was referring to) between vitamins of biologic and factory origin that result in differing utility when humans ingest them.

3) Dances With Mice and take a knee, you're both well-informed clever guys that I like & respect, and would enjoy hiking with anytime. I think you're both arguing different points that you're respectively correct on. Why not save the venom for the real idiots, and not each other? There are plenty of chemistry-equivalent version of Flat Earthers, young-Earth creationists, proponents of the stork hypothesis for where babies come from, vegans who say they don't need B-12 (the concentrated essence of meat), believers in the validity of astrology (not to mention the honesty of professional wrestling and career politicians), etc., to rightly castigate here on WB. Go to it. :D

MS, thanks for succinctly stating what I poorly attempted to do, mainly that the term "identical" gets bandied about in the food/supplement industry by people who don't have a clue what they are talking about, and by those who do ,who aren't truthful about it. What happens biochemically in the human body is a young science, what we know pales in comparison to what there is left to learn. We have learned enough to start making some scientifically sound dietary choices to improve health and longevity, a topic you have contributed greatly to here at WB.

DWM, no barbs or venom intended, I doubt anyone with your sense of humor would be bothered by anything a smarta$$ like myself would offer up anyway. I really think you just like dicking with me, and, in a twisted way, I'm enjoying it.:eek:

I'd hike with either of you guys, I'm certain the campfire conversation would be most interesting, at least for me.

[Footslogger]

(not to mention the honesty of professional wrestling ...

=====================================

Oh man ...talk about bursting a guy's bubble. You mean professional wrestling isn't legit ?

'Slogger

[TFin04]

A fancy schmancy nutrition guru from one of the big name colleges around here recommended Vitalyte powder. It's what most of our troops are using overseas to stay hydrated.

I must say, for taste, price, ease of use, and digestion, this stuff works awesome. REI sells enough powder for 5 gallons of drink for about $10. I like the fruit punch flavor.

Gatorade gets on my nerves after a while. Too much sugar.

[Dances with Mice]

DWM, no barbs or venom intended, None taken. I'd tell you not to worry about it if I thought you were.

My job is to detect differences in materials. It's a lot of fun and by happy coincidence it's also where some money is.

But that pro wrestling crack was funny as an unintentionally insult to a famous trail host and tireless shuttler as .... oh, I don't know ....

... as offering to cite wavelengths to a vibrational spectroscopist.

[minnesotasmith]

But that pro wrestling crack was funny as an unintentionally insult to a famous trail host and tireless shuttler as .... oh, I don't know ....

... as offering to cite wavelengths to a vibrational spectroscopist.

I've worked as a polarized light microscopist for, oh, around 5 years myself, so kind of have some ideas on light physics. Anyway, I knew your college coursework alone (Technical Physics!!!) made you aware of the diff; didn't think everyone reading would, though.

[leprechaun]

I have read that the peel of a banana has even more potassium than the inside. im not sure if its true, but the info seems to check out

[Blissful]

I have read that the peel of a banana has even more potassium than the inside. im not sure if its true, but the info seems to check out


Blah. :p

I'll take the insides anyday.

:)

[BumpJumper]

Some of you may have read my post in the ladies forum about my hike yesterday but I need some electrolyte when hiking from now on. I am looking for a powder that I can take in single serving type size so I can just pour it on my tongue and down some water. I dont want to mix it and carry it that way or use my water for it. Any ideas?

[Blissful]

Maybe like one of those gel pac things? I've seen them sold at places like REI but have never used them though.

[Erin]

I leaned about the gels and such when I was training for and did a marathon. I was very skepital, until I used them at five mile intervals. Alot of sugar, but sometimes the glucose is the boost you need. If you are anti this, honey packet has the same effect. On desert hike and AT, I took the little packs of Propel powder and put it in water. It does work and reduces the chance of over water sturation which can be a killer. And I believe that a banana and an ibuprophin can work wonders for a sore body after a hard day. One of my miliary friends taught me that one. It works. Why they have bannanas at all the stations at rides and runs, with peanut butter. Don't forget your protein.

[BumpJumper]

Wonder if I can just put it on my tongue then follow with a chaser of water?

[Tinker]

A real refreshing way to get some needed vitamin C is to buy a can of frozen concentrated orange juice in town and reconstitute it on the trail. If you have a small tupperware-type container you can spoon out a little at a time rather than making the whole serving at once. It doesn't weigh that much, especially if real fruit juice is what you're craving.

[rgarling]

I used gookinade with good results. It looks like they are changing their name to vitalyte, which is probably a good idea.

[volleypc]

Coming from a beach volleyball/triathlon background and always having problems with cramps.. I second Phreaks recommendation on endurolytes. I also carry a accelerade and add it to my water on hot days or days when I can feel lactic acid buildup.

[Serial 07]

haven't read the whole thing, but celtic sea salt, the grey colored kind, has trace minerals galore...

[.5step]

Go to the dried fruit section at your local trader joes and look for dried bananas (not those banana chip things you find in gorp) but actual flattened dried bananas. Plus, they are easy to pack. They are amazing and actually taste like bananas. I also like the dried blueberries.