View Full Version : Cookpot metal irrelevant to cook time--REPORT
minnesotasmith
08-11-2008, 17:08
From:
http://www.thru-hiker.com/articles/debunking_cookware_myths.php
"Debunking Cookware Myths
I'm a born skeptic. When I read people making claims on internet message boards regarding the performance or failure of their gear, I duplicate the experiment to either confirm or refute their results. This article reports on an experiment I ran to determine if people's claims that there is a significant difference between boil times and fuel consumption for the three common cookware materials get the [profanely bogus] award. Pots tested:
MSR Titan kettle (titanium)
MSR Stowaway (stainless steel)
Camping Gaz (Bluet) aluminum
generic stainless steel 2 L pot
Experimental: A large basin of water was set out and allowed to equilibrate with room temperature (72 degrees Fahrenheit). Two cups of water were transferred to each of the pots using a cooking grade measuring cup. The boiling point at my altitude was determined to be 212 degrees F. A Primus Alpine Titanium canister stove was used to heat the water to boiling as determined by the temperature probe (see sidebar for details of temperature data collection). The probe was suspended in the center of each pot so that the sensor was about one centimeter below the surface of the water. The weight of the canister after heating the water to a boil was subtracted from the weight of the canister before to determine the mass of fuel used. The time to reach a 212 degree boil was recorded in seconds. In each case the initial starting temperature of the water was 72 degrees F and final was 212 degrees F.
Results:
Material/ Fuel weight consumed/ Time to reach a full, rolling boil (212 degrees F)
MSR Stowaway stainless steel 0.3 oz 2 min 38 seconds
Generic stainless steel 0.3 oz 2 min 22 seconds
Blue aluminum 0.3 oz 2 min 33 seconds
MSR Titantitanium 0.3 oz 2 min 34 seconds
Conclusion: Even though aluminum, stainless steel, and titanium have different heat transfer properties, no significant differences were observed for boiling times and fuel consumption between the different materials for the pots tested and stove used. Unsubstantiated claims to the contrary receive (fanfare & cheering) the [profanely bogus] award.
Weight, cost, and design should be at the forefront of your cookware research. Another equally important conclusion you should consider is that well-meaning people often spread misinformation on internet message boards with regard to the performance or drawbacks of gear."
I never heard that one pot boils faster than another.
I never heard that one pot boils faster than another.
A small round pot takes longer then a big round. 4in. is longer 8in. is faster i know i boil water ever night on lots of stoves like a whole work shop full
A small round pot takes longer then a big round. 4in. is longer 8in. is faster i know i boil water ever night on lots of stoves like a whole work shop full
OK, then I guess the myth isn't debunked. ;)
Not to stir the pot, but doesn't aluminum spread the heat better than titanium, therefore my omelet comes out much better in my aluminum pan?
Not to stir the pot, but doesn't aluminum spread the heat better than titanium, therefore my omelet comes out much better in my aluminum pan?
Make a frittata; much tastier...
No word if ti vs alum has an effect... :-?
gravityman
08-11-2008, 17:48
The physics (for boiling water - not cooking an omelet):
The rate of heat flow (how fast the heat will go from the 'hot air' under the pot to the 'cold liquid in the pot) is the Thermal Conductivity of the material x the area x Delta Temp Divided by the thickness of the material.
Or dQ/dt = k times A times dT divided by x
Assume the same size pot and the same thickness pot then time difference is just the ratio of thermal conductivities.
thermal conductivity of Al alloy 7075 = 120 W/m/deg C
thermal conductivity of Ti (various alloys)= 17 to 7.5 W/m/deg C = 13 W/m/deg C
So, a pot with the same thickness bottom and same area made out of titanium would take 9 times longer to heat.
However, as everyone knows, the titanium pot is MUCH thinner. How much thinner? It needs to be 1/9th as thin to make up for the heat transfer problem.
The real world test is interesting, and it does seem to be that there is very little difference in the end.
However, from the simple physics, as was suggested, pick the pot with the largest surface area.
Gravity
pssst..we are just making mac n' cheese on small backpacking stoves.
Does it really matter? :)
All i got to say
Man play with fire man get burnt
pssst..we are just making mac n' cheese on small backpacking stoves.
Does it really matter? :)
Checking my menu: Omelets, pancakes, quesadillas, steaks, sausages, special rice/chicken/spices/soup/onion dinner. Um, no mac n' cheese - thank god.
sheepdog
08-11-2008, 18:50
Checking my menu: Omelets, pancakes, quesadillas, steaks, sausages, special rice/chicken/spices/soup/onion dinner. Um, no mac n' cheese - thank god.
Do not slander the mighty mac n' cheese!!!!:mad:
Do not slander the mighty mac n' cheese!!!!:mad:
No need, it is self slandering. :D
I hear that makes you go blind! :eek:
There are all kinds of myths that people take for law that aren’t true.
People believe that a microwave cooks from the inside out, this is false. In order for the center to cook, the micro waves of energy have to go through the outside of food to cook the inside. Simple experiment, put a piece of bread in a microwave and set the timer for 20-min and watch what part burns first.
As far as camping cookware I have used Stainless Steel for 25-years, because it’s easier to keep clean. Don’t really care about the cook time.
Dances with Mice
08-11-2008, 19:57
What isn't being considered is that the heat given off by the cannister stove is overwhelming any differences in heat transfer effects caused by pot compositions. Water in all these pots would boil at practically the same times if placed under a blowtorch.
That being said, where were all these discussions about boil times being influenced by pot compositions? Is the myth just a myth itthelf?
whitefoot_hp
08-11-2008, 20:25
A small round pot takes longer then a big round. 4in. is longer 8in. is faster i know i boil water ever night on lots of stoves like a whole work shop full
i second this, as i have observed it with my own two eyes. cookware shape plays an important role in cook time.
saimyoji
08-11-2008, 20:59
Not to stir the pot, but doesn't aluminum spread the heat better than titanium, therefore my omelet comes out much better in my aluminum pan?
maybe, but it'll also make your boobs grow. right MS?
Shape as important to the tone of the pot as material (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ApGlFUk1CY). But what shape cooks the slowest?
Skidsteer
08-11-2008, 21:03
maybe, but it'll also make your boobs grow. right MS?
No, aluminum causes alzheimer's. You're thinking of Nalgenes.
Get your irrational fears straight.
Dances with Mice
08-11-2008, 21:07
Shape as important to the tone of the pot as material (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ApGlFUk1CY). But what shape cooks the slowest?cone-shaped, point down.
saimyoji
08-11-2008, 21:07
No, aluminum causes alzheimer's. You're thinking of Nalgenes.
Get your irrational fears straight.
oops. better switch my aluminum pots to Ti. :D
whitefoot_hp
08-11-2008, 21:15
interesting info here about aluminum
http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=99
I've never noticed any cooking difference with my pots. I typically carry titanium due to the lightweight.
Skidsteer
08-11-2008, 21:27
oops. better switch my aluminum pots to Ti. :D
Yeah, before you forget....:D
Dances with Mice
08-11-2008, 21:32
interesting info here about aluminum
http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=99 (http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=99) In that link under the sub-heading
Evidence linking aluminium and Alzheimer's disullet ease,
the second and third bullet points are particularly interesting.
Skidsteer
08-11-2008, 21:32
interesting info here about aluminum
http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=99
More interesting info from Snopes:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=is-there-any-proof-that-a
whitefoot_hp
08-11-2008, 22:57
yeah it seems the fear of aluminum is not well founded.
Checking my menu: Omelets, pancakes, quesadillas, steaks, sausages, special rice/chicken/spices/soup/onion dinner. Um, no mac n' cheese - thank god.
Mea culpa...
Let me rephrase it..
We are cooking meals over a tiny stove...it really doesn' t matter!
My Grandma cooked with a pot, a pan, a knife and some simple spoons. Something most "foodies" would sneer at as they buy their overpriced yuppie cookware at Peppercorn.
I suspect (I know!) that the dishes Grandma cooked is far superior to what the yupsters cook on their expensive pots. I now see that the "peasant food dishes" Grandma made are now served in chi chi restaurants that specialize in "Rustic Southern Italian food" (i.e. not the "red sauce " joints most Americans think of as Italian food). These dishes cost an arm and a leg....not bad for something made for starving peasants from il mezzogiorno. I also see the recipes posted on foodie websites and at Whole Foods (something I doubt my ancestors could afford...or whatever the equivalent of the 1910 Whole Paycheck was.. :D)
So..what does all this rambling mean?
In the same way my Grandma was able to able to make these wonderful meals with the most basic of tools, why do we as backpackers obsess over titanium pots? Heat transfer rates? Etc? Backpacking is about simplicity. Getting back to the basics. Lightweight backpacking is about paring down to the uber essentials.
Yet, backpacking seems to have become about the gear. Lightweight backpacking has become less about simplicity and more about what "gee whiz" toys you can buy to get lightweight.
A pot, a knife, a spoon, some heat. It worked for Grandma Mags when she made eggplant caponata. Surely the simple tools can work for our backcountry concoctions?
In the end, no one cared what kind of pot the good cooks used. Perhaps we should take that philosophy towards enjoying the outdoors, too.
Gear is to used to enjoying hiking in the outdoors. Hopefully we don't hike so we can enjoy gear. :)
(Sorry for the rambling post...just an observation I've been meaning to write for a while. This thread just brought it about. Not aiming this at anyone).
I bet she had at least one good knife, tho.
Read a review of home coffee makers. At the prices they were talking, I bet Nescafe would work.
The bottom line is BTU's.
And please Aluminum is the killer.
I bet she had at least one good knife, tho.
Read a review of home coffee makers. At the prices they were talking, I bet Nescafe would work.
It was a sharp knife. Don't know about good.
This is the type of coffee maker my Grandfather used:
http://www.kitchenemporium.com/kitchenemporium/images/co270b.jpg
My Dad now has it and uses it. Probably 60+ yrs old at this point.
Makes a damn fine cup of joe.
maybe, but it'll also make your boobs grow. right MS?
I hear that makes you go blind! :eek:
More myths to dispell!:D
mister krabs
08-12-2008, 10:35
It was a sharp knife. Don't know about good.
This is the type of coffee maker my Grandfather used:
....
Makes a damn fine cup of joe.
You ain't kiddin. There's one on my stove right now.
atraildreamer
08-12-2008, 12:44
I never heard that one pot boils faster than another. I thought that a watched pot never boils??? :banana
gravityman
08-12-2008, 13:06
pssst..we are just making mac n' cheese on small backpacking stoves.
Does it really matter? :)
I like to know how things work in general. Does it matter if my water boils a few seconds faster? No... But I do like to know WHY!
But it also CAN make great gear. Suppose when Henry Shires was wondering why his tent fabric was always slack, he didn't realize that if he cut the ridge with a catenary curve, but rather he just said, well it still keeps me dry. Do you think the tarptent would have been as well embraced?
Plus it's a great distraction from work when I'm stuck on a problem...
Gravity
Actually, you've given the physics for heating a pot. The relevant conductivity in this whole scenario is that of the water in the pot, which is significantly less than that of any of the metal pots. Thus, the water will boil at about the same time (as seen by the empirical test). The difference in the thermal conductivities of the pots will be seen in the temperature of the pots (and the gradient of temperature across the metal of the pot).
Plus it's a great distraction from work when I'm stuck on a problem...
Gravity
It is just when gear obsessiveness overshadows the actual joy of backpacking, then something is amiss.
Just noticed this trend more and more in books, magazines and websites.
Then again, I am curmudgeon in training. :)
gravityman
08-12-2008, 14:42
Actually, you've given the physics for heating a pot. The relevant conductivity in this whole scenario is that of the water in the pot, which is significantly less than that of any of the metal pots. Thus, the water will boil at about the same time (as seen by the empirical test). The difference in the thermal conductivities of the pots will be seen in the temperature of the pots (and the gradient of temperature across the metal of the pot).
Higher gradient across pot material = less energy to heat water = longer boiling time. The heat conductivity of the water is irrelevent (and actually quite high because of convection in the pot). It's the heat capacity of water that's imporant in boiling time (or amount of energy it takes to heat a set amount of water by a set number of degrees) but it's the same in all tests.
Gravityman
gravityman
08-12-2008, 14:44
It is just when gear obsessiveness overshadows the actual joy of backpacking, then something is amiss.
Just noticed this trend more and more in books, magazines and websites.
Then again, I am curmudgeon in training. :)
I've noticed your posts have started to take on a "You kids, these days" kind of tone :) But you are absolutely right, a lot of people focused on the 'wow' factor rather than the fun of backpacking. I agree...
Shape as important to the tone of the pot as material (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ApGlFUk1CY). But what shape cooks the slowest?
The shape that presents the least amount of surface area to the flame and/or hot gasses ...... so, a cone, point down, if only the point is exposed to the flame, would certainly be the slowest.
A tall can, with a small diameter, would be rather inefficient as well if only the bottom is exposed to the heat.
NICKTHEGREEK
08-12-2008, 15:14
It was a sharp knife. Don't know about good.
This is the type of coffee maker my Grandfather used:
http://www.kitchenemporium.com/kitchenemporium/images/co270b.jpg
My Dad now has it and uses it. Probably 60+ yrs old at this point.
Makes a damn fine cup of joe.
They sell them in all the yuppie cook stores and goomba markets.
They sell them in all the yuppie cook stores and goomba markets.
Yep. What was used by southern Italian peasants (and their children) is now an expensive item.
As for "goomba" store...er,um..I am not sure how to take that term....ahem.
NICKTHEGREEK
08-12-2008, 17:09
Yep. What was used by southern Italian peasants (and their children) is now an expensive item.
As for "goomba" store...er,um..I am not sure how to take that term....ahem.
Take it without offense, that was how it was sent.
I picked up one of those pots last month at a Goodwill shop for $3.50. I had no idea I was a yuppie goomba!
Admittedly, it had a cracked handle, but it was pretty easy to fix.
JumpInTheLake
08-27-2008, 13:43
maybe, but it'll also make your boobs grow. right MS?
You must be thinking of unfermented soy.
I've noticed your posts have started to take on a "You kids, these days" kind of tone :) But you are absolutely right, a lot of people focused on the 'wow' factor rather than the fun of backpacking. I agree...
Get off my damn lawn! :p
(SHakes fist....)
On a serious note, it is easier to talk about gear. It is something tangible. Something most people can readily relate to.
When I do slideshows, I get more questions about the type of shoe I wore, or the water treatment method I used. Less questions about the flowers, or the scenery or what it is like to be on a wilderness pilgrimage for a few months at a time.
As I said though, easier to ask about a cook pot and give a concrete answer than to relate the less tangible, the less obvious...but the really good part about backpacking.
Damn..I need more coffee... ..
taildragger
08-27-2008, 15:28
It is just when gear obsessiveness overshadows the actual joy of backpacking, then something is amiss.
Just noticed this trend more and more in books, magazines and websites.
Then again, I am curmudgeon in training. :)
As an engineer, I love to see well engineered items. Thats why I like my cat stove (uber KISS) and my catalyst (no uneeded frills, unless you count a frame as a frill). Thats about where my gear snobbiness ends. I got a good hit of the anyone can hike with anything while in the winds. I saw people out fishing on their 10 day excursion with old swiss gear packs, and heavy old lowe alpines. They weren't hiking big miles, just lake to lake, and they didn't care about the pack as long as it worked. OTOH, they probably cared a lot about their fly rods.
HMHDI:mad:
HMHDI:mad:
I hear that is a wonderful book! :D
Yeah, I am all about the KISS principle to. Anything that works, and makes it so I DON'T have to think about gear is great.
Gear is just the means to get into the wilderness. It really shouldn't be the means itself... (to paraphrase something I said earlier).
Footslogger
08-27-2008, 16:34
I'm not an engineer but have a technical bent. A while back I did a side by side experiment with a 1.3 Liter Titanium and the same size aluminum with the exact same amount of water (and the same temperature) using my trusty Trangia alcohol stove.
Both cookpots showed gas bubbles gathering at the bottom simultaneously and rolling boild ocurred at the same time.
So ...I've known this for quite a while but still carry the Ti cookpot because it is lighter.
'Slogger
JumpInTheLake
08-27-2008, 20:32
But doesn't food taste better in a $50.00 titanium pot? My salesperson promised me it would.
minnesotasmith
08-28-2008, 01:22
You must be thinking of unfermented soy.
I believe that violent treatment of soy products tends to deactive the phytases (also called "antinutrients" for their negative effects in that area) more than it does their estrogen analogs. You would thus still get the testosterone-suppressant effect from pretty much any soy product.
taildragger
08-28-2008, 01:30
my lead pot cooks faster than those times
What you cook the food in is not as important as where you cook the food.
Cook at home on a big gas range = bad.:(
Cook out in the wild on a puny stove = good. :sun
JumpInTheLake
08-28-2008, 10:49
I believe that violent treatment of soy products tends to deactive the phytases (also called "antinutrients" for their negative effects in that area) more than it does their estrogen analogs. You would thus still get the testosterone-suppressant effect from pretty much any soy product.
I'll agree with that. Soy is not a health food as far as I'm concerned, and I completely avoid it.