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TheKO
08-17-2008, 23:05
Just wondering. Does anyone use GPS units instead of maps? Do any of the GPS units out there provide the capability to downlaod additional info such as shelter information?

Seems as if some of the newer units provide current weather data as well as aerial photographs. Are these any good?

Cuffs
08-17-2008, 23:10
While I use both maps and gps, I would not rely soley on gps. Yes, they can be loaded with all kinds of data (AT centerline, shelter locations, geocaches along the trail...)

The Garmins are excellent, but again, I would not rely on just the gps.

Bob S
08-17-2008, 23:14
I love my Garman GPS, it tells you right where you are. Assuming it never breaks down and keeps working you can live without a map. But I still like to have a map with me. It gives you a better idea (a big picture) of the area you are traveling in.

SmokeHouse
08-18-2008, 01:05
I always carry a Map and a compass. I may or may not carry a GPS.

mystic
08-18-2008, 02:14
Garmin Forerunner 305 fits on your wrist.
https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=349&tab=forerunner305

I downloaded all the shelter waypoints and geocaches along my route. It is nice to know approximately how close you are to the next shelter. No detailed mapping function but it does display your track. It was a nice compliment to a map. Being able to mark a location (say you hide your pack while you get water) and track back to it is nice. And for emergency situations (getting off trail, having to call for aid) it is invaluable.

rafe
08-18-2008, 02:23
I'm no expert on this... but I acquired my first GPS a few weeks ago (Earthmate PN-20.) In my short experience so far, I found that acquiring a lock on the AT was difficult due to the dense foliage overhead (I was trying it in Vermont, near Killington, last week.) It had no such problems in the less-dense foliage of the PCT. I've never needed a GPS on the AT... but PCT maps are far more sketchy.

fiddlehead
08-18-2008, 09:19
I use GPS instead of maps. (there are no maps where i have been hiking recently so, if i want to have an idea where i am, the GPS works for me)
Yes, sometimes tree cover makes you look for some sky to get a signal.

You would have to download the shelter coordinates into the GPS as far as i know. I'm sure it's coming where there will be an easy file to upload for them all but it's not easy yet. Mainly because the company that sells you the GPS wants to also sell you the mapping software that would be necessary.

There's a lot of threads on here about whether to carry maps or not. Just search, it's been hotly debated many times. I think carrying a GPS is not a bad idea.

Cuffs
08-18-2008, 09:59
I use GPS instead of maps. (there are no maps where i have been hiking recently so, if i want to have an idea where i am, the GPS works for me)
Yes, sometimes tree cover makes you look for some sky to get a signal.

You would have to download the shelter coordinates into the GPS as far as i know. I'm sure it's coming where there will be an easy file to upload for them all but it's not easy yet. Mainly because the company that sells you the GPS wants to also sell you the mapping software that would be necessary.

There's a lot of threads on here about whether to carry maps or not. Just search, it's been hotly debated many times. I think carrying a GPS is not a bad idea.

The new Garmin X models are the latest and greatest. Ive been in deep Alabama canyons with walls on all 4 sides, covered in trees and never lost a signal.

I like the idea of a gps where no maps are available, hadnt thot of that before.

Using Easy GPS or GSAK, you can just upload the AT shelters into the unit (that file is on the ATC website!)

bkrownd
08-20-2008, 03:50
The new Garmin X models are the latest and greatest. Ive been in deep Alabama canyons with walls on all 4 sides, covered in trees and never lost a signal.

DITTO. They are well worth the extra money, and vastly outperform the other models. No canyons here, but I've never lost lock in any kind of rainforest. The electronic compass is fairly crude and easily confused, so keep a real compass at hand, but the barometric altimeter feature can be really handy.

NICKTHEGREEK
08-20-2008, 06:25
DITTO. They are well worth the extra money, and vastly outperform the other models. No canyons here, but I've never lost lock in any kind of rainforest. The electronic compass is fairly crude and easily confused, so keep a real compass at hand, but the barometric altimeter feature can be really handy.
Why would you want a Barometric altimeter when you have altitude from a GPS that never looses lock?

bkrownd
08-21-2008, 01:22
Why would you want a Barometric altimeter when you have altitude from a GPS that never looses lock?

Good question. The answer AFAIK is that GPS elevation isn't very accurate and tends to suffer from systematic errors of an origin I've never bothered to investigate. For instance, in the area I explore most, ca. 6000 feet elevation, totally flat and unforested, and under clear sky the GPS elevation is always 60-120 feet too high. (Numerous USGS benchmarks to compare to) The barometric altimeter is fairly sensitive, on the other hand, so I always use it, calibrating from a known elevation. I can't give you any authoritative answer, though.

fiddlehead
08-21-2008, 03:50
The new Garmin X models are the latest and greatest. Ive been in deep Alabama canyons with walls on all 4 sides, covered in trees and never lost a signal.
)

I'm gonna have to keep my eye on one of those on ebay.
I was out there today in thick jungle here in Thailand and only had signal on my etrex legend when i would stop at a clearing. Clearings are rare.

Any X model ok? I'm not familiar with them.

NICKTHEGREEK
08-21-2008, 07:04
Good question. The answer AFAIK is that GPS elevation isn't very accurate and tends to suffer from systematic errors of an origin I've never bothered to investigate. For instance, in the area I explore most, ca. 6000 feet elevation, totally flat and unforested, and under clear sky the GPS elevation is always 60-120 feet too high. (Numerous USGS benchmarks to compare to) The barometric altimeter is fairly sensitive, on the other hand, so I always use it, calibrating from a known elevation. I can't give you any authoritative answer, though.
Thanks for giving it a shot.
After some research it seems like the math in the GPS equation calculates the satellite position relative the center of the earth (the axis of the satellite rotation). Because the earth is kinda round here, kinda egg shaped there, a model of the earth's surface (geoid) is used to "predict" where sea level is based on your lat lon position. The model ain't tweaked 100% just yet, so there's a big part of the error. The rest is pretty much where the satellites are at any time and some geometry that put me to sleep. Basically the altitude (z axis) error is 3 times the lat lon (x y axes) errors.
So really the short answer is it's good to have a baro altimeter in your GPS.

Jaybird
08-21-2008, 07:48
Just wondering. Does anyone use GPS units instead of maps? Do any of the GPS units out there provide the capability to downlaod additional info such as shelter information?.........Are these any good?


I DONT take my GPS...it stays in the car...
the trail is BLAZED with those BIG WHITE marks for a reason!:D


i'll be hikin' (with "DAKS") Ashby Gap/Hwy 50 SOBO to Thornton Gap Sept.26-29...maybe i'll see some of you WHITE BLAZERS out there!
(with or without your GPS!)

fiddlehead
08-21-2008, 07:50
Nice one Nick.
I always wondered why the elevation on the GPS's weren't very accurate.
That makes sense.

Barometric altimeters must be set every day to be accurate. (and then are still not exact)

Cuffs
08-21-2008, 09:04
I'm gonna have to keep my eye on one of those on ebay.
I was out there today in thick jungle here in Thailand and only had signal on my etrex legend when i would stop at a clearing. Clearings are rare.

Any X model ok? I'm not familiar with them.

Yes, The X models all have the same technology (AFIK).

Cuffs
08-21-2008, 09:06
Nice one Nick.
I always wondered why the elevation on the GPS's weren't very accurate.
That makes sense.

Barometric altimeters must be set every day to be accurate. (and then are still not exact)

Yea, reset frequently to local conditions. I have a local municipal airport that I can check in with and they will allow me out to the runway to calibrate. The benchmarks in my area are not as accessible....

TheKO
08-21-2008, 13:46
Actually, I was planning on using a "watch" that has Temperture, Altitude and barometer readings on it - oh yeah and time. GPS was going to be used in lieu of maps.

Anyone using the newer GPS that has the current weather on it? They look heavy and I am not sure of the battery life.

DavidNH
08-21-2008, 15:05
I have a GPS Earthmate PN 20. Bought it a month or so ago.

Frankly I prefer to use maps.

With GPS

you have to pause while it gets a fix on the sattelites
you can run out of juice in your batteries
cover like tree canopy and buildings hinders communication with the sattelites and thus impedes the GPS

With maps
no batteries
with compass works in all weather types
frankly maps are more fun.

David

Footslogger
08-21-2008, 15:15
Pretty much been said by many ...but I've owned 3 - 4 different units since the birth of consumer level GPS. If you are hiking with USGS quad maps they are a handy way to precisely locate yourself at a given point in time. If you have beginning and end coordinates for your hike and cross-country hiking or bushwhacking is possible (like out here in Wyoming) they can come in handy. Otherwise they are often more of a hindrance than a help WHILE you are hiking.

'Slogger

Cuffs
08-21-2008, 15:39
I have a GPS Earthmate PN 20. Bought it a month or so ago.

Frankly I prefer to use maps.

With GPS

you have to pause while it gets a fix on the sattelites
you can run out of juice in your batteries
cover like tree canopy and buildings hinders communication with the sattelites and thus impedes the GPS

With maps
no batteries
with compass works in all weather types
frankly maps are more fun.

David

I think some of the problems are Brand and Model specific. With my Garmin 60csx, I can get a signal, moving or stationary in 30 seconds, and even faster if the unit had been on previously in the day.

Batteries are an issue for everyone!

Tree canopy, like signal strength is model specific. I have never lost signal in full summer, in a 400' deep canyon covered in trees with my unit.

And I totally agree with the use of maps (no batts, all weather and I too enjoy reading/working with them in unison with my gps)

fiddlehead
08-21-2008, 15:53
with compass works in all weather types

David

Whiteout? Heavy fog?

MOWGLI
08-21-2008, 16:02
Whiteout? Heavy fog?

FH:

A few weeks back, you were going to bushwhack a route you had drawn in Thailand for a new trail. How did that go?

fiddlehead
08-21-2008, 21:30
I've been working on it about 2-3 days a week when i get time.
It's going great. I'm really lovin it.

Yesterday I did about my best day so far. I probably did 3 miles in only 4 hours.
The first 8 miles took me 7 days.

When i have to bushwhack here, it is really tough. It's the middle to late end of rainy season so the jungle is really thick. But usually i can find a way with old trails, or old roads that are getting overgrown.
I have been writing it up bit by bit on my blog. Here is my latest entry and today i hope to write some more about yesterday's adventure: www.fiddlehead.wordpress.com
It is complete with pictures although yesterday, i forgot the camera which is a shame cause i had some nice views of quite a few of the beaches around both the east and west side.
So, in this double and sometimes triple canopy jungle, my old etrex legend isn't cutting it too good. When i see sky, i stop and let it catch up.
I have created a route on google earth which i explain somewhere else on that blog and download it to my gps. This is the line i basically try to follow when i'm out there but sometimes it is easier to go a little astray and i hopefully will figure out how to download the tracback feature to google earth.

When i have more time, i will create a special kml (or kmz i get them mixed up) file and upload it to my blog. Eventually, people should be able to read the blog, download the kml file, load it into their gps, and go out and hike it. I might start taking a machete along to clear some thick brush sometimes. I thought i would possibly get in trouble with landowners but so far have only met rubber tree farmers and most of them are from neighboring Myramar and probably illegal and they are friendly as can be to me.
And the hash house harriers here in Phuket tell me not to worry about that. THey say i should be afraid of stepping into a hole and breaking my leg and not being able to get out. Or hornet's nests or snakes. I told them i hiked a lot in the states by myself but i don't think they understand what that means.

Anyway, thanks for asking. I will try to keep that blog somewhat up to date but already i have done about 6 or 7 more miles that aren't on there.

I am starting to think that the project will take at least 3 years. But it is worthwhile as there is total silence up there. (no airplanes fly over southern Phuket)

fiddlehead
08-21-2008, 21:41
Sorry, that link was for the whole blog, here (http://fiddlehead.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/trailblazing-in-phuket/) is the article about the bushwhacking i've done so far.

And this (http://fiddlehead.wordpress.com/2008/04/28/gps-problems-solved-trailblazing-starts-in-phuket-thailand/) one is the article i wrote about how to transfer from google earth to my gps

Hammock Hanger
08-21-2008, 22:19
I have trouble finding a cache in a local park with my POSSESSED GPS. I would definately not want to use it in a wilderness location where I was depending on it getting me out... Come to think of it I remember being lost in the Big Swamp when my companions whipped out their GPS units. We continued to be lost! :)

Wise Old Owl
08-21-2008, 22:44
Why would you want a Barometric altimeter when you have altitude from a GPS that never looses lock?


I am still working on that one... I struggled to understand why it would be good to have. but I did find this

The following table generally summarizes wind and barometer indications in the United States. The amateur forecaster should modify the table in accordance with his or her own observations. The following show the wind direction, the barometer reduced to sea level and the character of the weather indicated:

SW to NW, 30.10 to 30.20 and steady - Fair with slight temperature change for 1 to 2 days.
SW to NW, 30.10 to 30.20 and rising rapidly - Fair, followed within 2 days by rain.
SW to NW, 30.20 and above and stationary - Continued fair, with no decided temperature change.
SW to NW, 30.20 and above and falling slowly - Slowly rising temperature and fair for 2 days.
S to SE, 30.10 to 30.20 and falling slowly - Rain within 24 hours.
S to SE, 30.10 to 30.20 and falling rapidly - Wind increasing in force, with rain within 12 to 24 hours.
SE to NE, 30.10 to 30.20 and falling slowly - Rain in 12 to 18 hours.
SE to NE, 30.10 to 30.20 and falling rapidly - Increasing wind, and rain within 12 hours.
E to NE, 30.10 and above and falling slowly - In summer, with light winds, rain may not fall for several days. In winter, rain within 24 hours.
E to NE, 30.10 and above and falling rapidly - In summer, rain probably within 12 to 24 hours. In winter, rain or snow, with increasing winds, will often set in when the barometer begins to fall and the wind sets in from the NE.
SE to NE, 30.00 or below and falling slowly - Rain will continue 1 to 2 days. SE to NE, 30.00 or below and falling rapidly - Rain, with high wind, followed, within 36 hours by clearing, and in winter by colder.
S to SW, 30.00 or below and rising slowly - Clearing within a few hours, and fair for several days.
S to E, 29.80 or below and falling rapidly - Severe storm imminent, followed within 24 hours, by clearing, and in winter by colder.
E to N, 29.80 or below and falling rapidly - Severe northeast gale and heavy precipitation; in winter, heavy snow, followed by a cold wave.
Going to W, 29.80 or below and rising rapidly - Clearing and colder.

Wise Old Owl
08-21-2008, 22:48
Ok here is something else I am struggling with.. The Garmin HCX has a poor quality base map preloaded. So you buy a cheap upgrade chip and load their unsupported Garmin Mapsource and most of the trail is missing. So you get the data off the internet to overlay on the Garmin Mapsource as a Track and guess what ..... Can't figure out how to convert or display - Talk about a huge learning curve.

fiddlehead
08-21-2008, 23:54
Ok here is something else I am struggling with.. The Garmin HCX has a poor quality base map preloaded. So you buy a cheap upgrade chip and load their unsupported Garmin Mapsource and most of the trail is missing. So you get the data off the internet to overlay on the Garmin Mapsource as a Track and guess what ..... Can't figure out how to convert or display - Talk about a huge learning curve.

Here's (http://fiddlehead.wordpress.com/2008/04/28/gps-problems-solved-trailblazing-starts-in-phuket-thailand/) some info that might help you from my experiences transferring a google earth kml file (which you can get off of the "net" for the AT) to my old Garmin Legend. Then i go out and follow the path from the kml (or kmz file, sorry i get them mixed up) ( using the TracBack feature)

Hope this helps.

bkrownd
08-22-2008, 16:32
Any X model ok? I'm not familiar with them.

Specifically the GPSMap 60CSX and eTrex Vista HCX are supposed to be the most sensitive. I have the 60CSX. (you'll have to investigate the differences between the Legend HCX and Vista HCX) The HCX is supposed to have longer battery life than the 60CSX.

bkrownd
08-22-2008, 16:36
Yes, The X models all have the same technology (AFIK).

Actually the models have different components, but they're comparable in sensitivity.

fiddlehead
08-22-2008, 17:05
Specifically the GPSMap 60CSX and eTrex Vista HCX are supposed to be the most sensitive. I have the 60CSX. (you'll have to investigate the differences between the Legend HCX and Vista HCX) The HCX is supposed to have longer battery life than the 60CSX.

Just checked em both out on ebay.
Seems the 60CSX is bigger (better for my sorry eyes) so that would explain the shorter battery life. But it seems to cost at least $50 more. (ebay)

I'm tired of squinting at my small etrex and i DO Want better reception in triple canopy jungle so, i will keep looking on ebay and see if i can get a deal.

Last time i sold an old Magellan Pathfinder on ebay, i got almost as much as i paid for the etrex. That thing was one of the first handhelds that ever came out ('97 i believe?)

Anyway, thanks for the info. I hope to get a 60 CSX at least for Christmas.

Hammock Hanger
08-22-2008, 17:40
The 60CSX is the one my husband was thinking of getting me for my bday. The little eTrex I have is usless in the woods. It is okay if I have my husband and can get him with in 30 feet of a cache... then he just knows. Good geo-sense.

I still doubt I will use a GPS for hiking. I want ot just relax and follow a blazed trail.

JumpInTheLake
08-22-2008, 21:26
Check out the Garmin 60CSX. It works well under dense foliage, and it does everything else well too.

bkrownd
08-23-2008, 02:27
One thing that's annoying me about my 60CSX is that I've exhausted the 500 waypoint memory (I do a lot of exploring), and Garmin doesn't allow waypoints to be stored on the SD card even though it has all that free memory to use! I need to learn how to take all my waypoints and tracks and build my own basemap and install it on the SD card to free up the tiny waypoint memory again. Unfortunately the newer models are still limited to 500 waypoints, AFAIK. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr

fiddlehead
08-23-2008, 03:37
You should be able to transfer them to your software and then delete them and start over. I know that is not the answer you are looking for but it is an option.

I had my etrex of 5 years stolen last winter with about 280 waypoints from all over the world in it and gone for good. I wish i would've had them backed up.

The Old Fhart
08-23-2008, 07:50
Brownd-"One thing that's annoying me about my 60CSX is that I've exhausted the 500 waypoint memory (I do a lot of exploring), and Garmin doesn't allow waypoints to be stored on the SD card even though it has all that free memory to use! I need to learn how to take all my waypoints and tracks and build my own basemap and install it on the SD card to free up the tiny waypoint memory again. Unfortunately the newer models are still limited to 500 waypoints, AFAIK. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr"Not correct. If you check this Garmin 60CSx FAQ site (http://www.gpsfaqs.org/faqs/garmin/xseries/g60cx/waypoints.html#howmany) you will find the maximum is 1000. I just tried maxing out the waypoint memory on my 60CSx and it actually loaded 999, so the answer is almost correct. If you can't load 1000, check the firmware version in your 60CSx, it's probably an older version. The firmware is stored in non-volatile memory in your GPS and can be updated. You can use the Garmin Web Updater (http://www8.garmin.com/products/webupdater/howtoinstall.jsp) to bring the firmware version in your 60CSx up to date in a few minutes.

How can you tell what version of firmware is in your Garmin GPSMap 60CSx? Press the following buttons to get to the correct screen. MENU > MENU > Setup > ENTR > System > ENTR > MENU >Software Version > ENTR . The current software version is 3.70, GPS SW Version is 3.00. I think you'll find you have a much older version that is limiting the number of waypoints you can load.

ki0eh
08-23-2008, 09:52
I have a GPS Earthmate PN 20. Bought it a month or so ago.

Frankly I prefer to use maps.

With GPS

you have to pause while it gets a fix on the sattelites
you can run out of juice in your batteries
cover like tree canopy and buildings hinders communication with the sattelites and thus impedes the GPS


The newer Garmins that end in "x" have much better receivers and much longer battery life than the Earthmate PN-20 from my personal side-to-side comparison. Consequently models like the Garmin 60CSx are much more useful in the woods.

But I agree, maps are still more fun. I still get more out of the paper DeLorme Atlas than colleagues' car GPSr's on rural back roads.

Edit: I thought I did but guess I didn't hit the next page before responding. Page 2 sure has an unusual display of unanimity for WB regarding the Garmin "x" units. :)

The Old Fhart
08-23-2008, 10:13
This may clear up some of the confusion on which Garmin models have the high sensitivity receiver that have no problem maintaining satellite track in deep woods or even inside some buildings.
"High-sensitivity SiRF equipped models include: eTrex H/Venture HC/Summit HC/Legend HCx/Vista HCx, GPSMAP 60Cx/ 60CSx/ 76Cx/ 76CSx, Rino 520HCx/530HCx, StreetPilot c530/c550/c580, entire nüvi series, zūmo 450/550, Astro, and Mobile 10"
Go to this site (http://www.gpsnow.com/gmmap60csx.htm) for a comparison of the various Garmin 60 series models and complete operating instruction manuals you can download for more information.

Sly
08-23-2008, 10:57
I'm gonna have to keep my eye on one of those on ebay.
I was out there today in thick jungle here in Thailand and only had signal on my etrex legend when i would stop at a clearing. Clearings are rare.

Any X model ok? I'm not familiar with them.

Legend HCx

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=8701

bkrownd
08-25-2008, 14:41
The current software version is 3.70, GPS SW Version is 3.00. I think you'll find you have a much older version that is limiting the number of waypoints you can load.

I will try that tonight, thanks. Of course now I will be lazy and put off making my new custom basemap by a couple months. ;)

bkrownd
09-02-2008, 05:27
Well, turns out I had 1000 waypoints already, not 500, and that was the limit I was bumping up against all along.

However, while updating my GPS firmware I found and loaded the "POILoader" program, and I'm converting many of my more permanent waypoints to POI status which should give me plenty of room....for a little while. ;) Hundreds of bird survey stations will be the first to get converted, since they're very "stationary", haha. Tomorrow I'll convert lots of other geographic features that aren't going anywhere. My waypoint memory should be mostly free soon. :) :) :)

I still eventually intend to make custom maps, but it's hard to stay out of the wilderness long enough to get around to that kind of thing. ;)

NICKTHEGREEK
09-02-2008, 06:12
I think some of the problems are Brand and Model specific. With my Garmin 60csx, I can get a signal, moving or stationary in 30 seconds, and even faster if the unit had been on previously in the day.

Batteries are an issue for everyone!

Tree canopy, like signal strength is model specific. I have never lost signal in full summer, in a 400' deep canyon covered in trees with my unit.

And I totally agree with the use of maps (no batts, all weather and I too enjoy reading/working with them in unison with my gps)

I guess you'd have to define what you mean by loss of signal and how wide that 400 ft deep canyon is. You need line of sight on 4 satellites at the same time for a "traditional" un-augmented X,Y, and Z axis fix. (Augmented means external input of very accurate altitude or position info to help the math along) The probability of having 4 satellites in contact happening all the time or even most of the time in a canyon is pretty darn thin unless the canyon is very wide. The analogy would be standing at the bottom of a deep well and being able to see both the big and little dippers at the same time.
No argument that receiver sensitivity and antenna pattern varies from model to model and some are way better than others. Looks like the Garmin 60csx is pretty good.