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WhiteBlaze
08-23-2008, 00:50
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Teens hit the Appalachian Trail (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/1-0&fd=R&url=http://www.newstimes.com/ci_10281509&cid=0&ei=ArivSOOdOZXK8AT_nujuAg&usg=AFQjCNEJefK4ZtF-PmE1NJTEmXpsULBsWg)
Danbury News Times, CT - <NOBR>30 minutes ago</NOBR>
By Sandra Diamond Fox Some of the hikers who participated in The Child and Family Institute of Fairfield County’s Appalachian Trail trip are, ...
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More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/1-0&fd=R&url=http://www.newstimes.com/ci_10281509&cid=0&ei=ArivSOOdOZXK8AT_nujuAg&usg=AFQjCNEJefK4ZtF-PmE1NJTEmXpsULBsWg)

minnesotasmith
08-23-2008, 04:03
"The purpose of the trip was to give teens -- who are at high risk for social and academic failure and negative risk-taking behaviors"

It's about another "hoods in the woods" group.

The Old Fhart
08-23-2008, 08:25
There is also "Teens To Trails" (T3) in Windham, Maine that this year had 375 people attend. I have been a volunteer presenter at this event and it is well worth supporting. Check out this nonprofit's web site here (http://www.teenstotrails.org/).

The Old Fhart
08-23-2008, 08:34
On my second day on the trail in Georgia in 1998 I met a group of high risk girls and their leaders. They had stopped because one of the girls was having a melt-down. I talked to one of the leaders and told him I was impressed with how they were calmly handling the situation. We chatted for a few minutes. These leaders were doing a good job and really trying to help these kids.

lunchbx
08-23-2008, 11:14
I have recently applied to a job over in NC at a place called Timber ridge to take groups of teens out on hikes and such. I am going to go for a tour/interview next week. Is there anyone on WB who has done this type of work and can give me some advice, or share thier experience. This seems like a perfect job for me and I do understand the patience that will be required of me for this type of work. I am just wondering about others' experiences.

ed bell
08-23-2008, 11:56
"The purpose of the trip was to give teens -- who are at high risk for social and academic failure and negative risk-taking behaviors"

It's about another "hoods in the woods" group.Incorrect, this program does not involve teens who are incarcerated or on supervised probation. It appears to be an outreach program for teens who have unstable family and economic situations. These kids are not juvenile delinquents.

ed bell
08-23-2008, 11:59
I have recently applied to a job over in NC at a place called Timber ridge to take groups of teens out on hikes and such. I am going to go for a tour/interview next week. Is there anyone on WB who has done this type of work and can give me some advice, or share thier experience. This seems like a perfect job for me and I do understand the patience that will be required of me for this type of work. I am just wondering about others' experiences.My wife worked at a Wilderness Camp for teenagers incarcerated by the SC Juvenile Justice System. I will PM you later this afternoon after I speak to her.

Lyle
08-23-2008, 12:11
"The purpose of the trip was to give teens -- who are at high risk for social and academic failure and negative risk-taking behaviors"

It's about another "hoods in the woods" group.

Many of these programs work. I was employed by VisionQuest for 5 years back in the
80's and early 90's. Yep, same organization that has one of their Wilderness Camps at South Mountain, PA. It is a very intense program for both the youth and the staff. Three-week backpacking (or other outdoor activity) Quests are an integral part of the year-long program.

I'm still very close friends with one young man I met in VisionQuest. His Mom credits VQ with literally saving his life. He credits VQ with giving him an alternative way of looking at and dealing with his life. He is, by no means, an isolated case. It was the toughest, most rewarding "job" I've ever had!

My hats off to all of these "alternative" treatment programs that are attempting to help out our youth. Traditional lock-ups rarely have a positive outcome. Many of these youths are 11 or 12 years old. Do we, as a society, really think they are unsalvagable and are we ready to throw them away. I certainly hope not. Please be supportive of the folks trying to make a real difference, as I said, it is an EXTREMELY difficult job.

Lyle
08-23-2008, 12:19
I have recently applied to a job over in NC at a place called Timber ridge to take groups of teens out on hikes and such. I am going to go for a tour/interview next week. Is there anyone on WB who has done this type of work and can give me some advice, or share thier experience. This seems like a perfect job for me and I do understand the patience that will be required of me for this type of work. I am just wondering about others' experiences.

Lunchbox,

Thank you. You are undertaking an very difficult task. I'm not familiar with the program You are joining, or the type of youth involved, but I do have experience working with juveniles in the outdoors (see my post above). Besides patience, you will need to develop a very TOUGH skin. Many of these youth can have an intimate and very advanced knowledge of "pushing buttons" to get a negative response. That, for me, was the most difficult aspect. When things go well, however, it is EXTREMELY rewarding. Best of luck. If you have any specific questions ask or PM.

minnesotasmith
08-23-2008, 16:39
It appears to be an outreach program for teens who have unstable family and economic situations. These kids are not juvenile delinquents.

Which kids do you think are most likely to become such? These. The point stands.

Lyle
08-23-2008, 17:25
Which kids do you think are most likely to become such? These. The point stands.

You are generalizing about a group of people about whom you know absolutely nothing. I for one find your comment and especially your attitude offensive.

And so what if they are "Hoods" as you call them. They have every bit as much right to use the calming and healing powers of mother nature as you do. Your statement was meant to be derogatory and it was.

ed bell
08-23-2008, 18:01
Which kids do you think are most likely to become such? These. The point stands.
Wrong. These kids are capable, functional kids. They are getting the opportunity to participate in a program that utilizes hiking/backpacking to give them skills that they can't get at home due to circumstances beyond their control. Calling them "hoods in the woods" is wrong. They are not in the same boat. Plenty of kids in well adjusted homes end up in the juvenile justice system. I would suggest refraining from putting the kids from the above article in that box. They already have enough things to overcome in life.

minnesotasmith
08-23-2008, 20:09
You are generalizing about a group of people about whom you know absolutely nothing. I for one find your comment and especially your attitude offensive.

And so what if they are "Hoods" as you call them. They have every bit as much right to use the calming and healing powers of mother nature as you do. Your statement was meant to be derogatory and it was.

1) There is no Constitutional clause forbidding being negative, or "derogatory". It's completely okay to have a less than stellar assessment of something or someone, and even -gasp- to express it. There are terms that are slanderous/libelous to use, but as the saying goes, "Truth is a defense against libel".

2) From what I know of such programs (my mother was a counselor for many years, and I heard about them over many a dinner table), kids don't get put in them just BC their mothers divorced their fathers or they flunked math once. They had had to be pulling something significant repeatedly as a rule to get put in them. That doesn't mean perfect attendance at school, good grades, volunteer work, church attendance, etc., but petty shoplifting, truancy, minor to moderate chemical abuse, running away, and such. Odds are pretty good these kids aren't.

Yeesh. State a simple fact, and people lose their entire brains.

Lyle
08-23-2008, 20:40
I'm certainly glad I'm not as jaded or judgmental as you. Your Mother experienced one program, so you feel you can judge every kid associated with any program. Unbelievable.

You are right, not all the kids are in there for failing Math.

Some are there because their father thought it was a good idea to spend Saturday afternoons getting his 14 year old son drunk, then taking him into the backyard and shooting a 22 at each other for kicks.

Some are there because they lived in a neighborhood where at about 12 years old they had to pledge allegiance to either the Bloods or the Crips. Join one or the other or you are the enemy of both and probably dead within a few days. To show your loyalty, you are required to participate in a drive-by shooting of a perfect stranger.

Some are there because their parents set them up on street corners to sell drugs for the family business when they were 10. The kid then had to talk his family out of opening fire and breaking him out of the camp with the weapons they brought for a Sunday family visit. The family's reasoning? Having the kid in VisionQuest was hurting their bottom line.

One thing that never ceased to amaze me in the five years I worked at VisionQuest, was how absolutely normal many of these kids were when they were removed from their abnormal environment and could feel safe. One of our most effective night-time tools for maintaining quiet and order at bedtime was threatening not to read to them. Most had never experienced someone taking the time to read a story to them. These were the 14, 15, 17 and 18 year old "Hoods" that you refer to.

Minnesotasmith, you have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about.

I will not respond to further of your postings.

modiyooch
08-23-2008, 20:45
Minn,

the article says that the kids involved "who are at high risk for social and academic failure and negative risk-taking behaviors -- " It also says
"These kids lead very difficult lives. Their parents may be drug or alcohol abusers, in prison or have emotional issues. Many of the kids are separated from their families or are being raised by their grandparents"
_______________
I didn't go through a program or counselors, but my encounter in the woods, one on one with nature and God, was a life saver for me. I was not from the best home life, but I was not a delinquent. I was at risk. It was a death wish when I started; and a wish to live when I came off.

minnesotasmith
08-23-2008, 21:01
I'm certainly glad I'm not as jaded or judgmental as you. Your Mother experienced one program, so you feel you can judge every kid associated with any program. Unbelievable.

She discussed her experiences with many hundreds of kids in scores of programs. This was her primary career over many years. There are some pretty consistent central tendencies about them:

1) The ones from broken/never-formed homes, not to mention if one or both parents were druggies and/or had spent time in prison, were FAR more likely to be seriously screwed-up longterm.

2) I define the latter as including being thieves and/or chemical users. CUs typically will steal to fund buying their chemicals (often included cigarettes) if they don't have honestly-received money at any point to cover supplying their habits.

3) #2 makes camping/sheltering on the Trail by such a group a questionable thing to do; might wake up with some stuff irretrievably missing...

4) I had a long private conversation once on the AT with the adult counselor head of such a group. He volunteered that such programs were primarily just a way to warehouse such minors at minimum risk to the productive part of the society until they were old enough for jail (if male) or jail and/or single motherhood on welfare (if female). The woods setting was more so the kids had less access to theft/vandalism opportunities, more than BC the woods would be healthy or pleasing to them.

5) Identifying something as what it is is called the Law of Identity. Being able and willing to do this on a regular basis is IMO a fundamental part of being an honest, intellectually competent person. That status does seem rarer and rarer these days, sad to say...

modiyooch
08-23-2008, 21:08
or maybe this program is trying to get to these kids BEFORE the point of no return

minnesotasmith
08-23-2008, 21:11
or maybe this program is trying to get to these kids BEFORE the point of no return

That would IMO take stringency of treatment (isolation from all similiar peers/family members, forced education, forced employment until it's a habit, etc.), not to mention money and counseling talent, far beyond what's usually allowed and budgeted. #4 covers what the purpose in the program usually really is, I expect.

Lyle
08-23-2008, 21:13
Unbelievable.

modiyooch
08-23-2008, 21:19
#4 is outlandish. Why even bother? Just through them in jail. Have you never invested in someone else life? specifically a child? They are not tarnished goods.

ed bell
08-23-2008, 22:00
"The purpose of the trip was to give teens -- who are at high risk for social and academic failure and negative risk-taking behaviors"

It's about another "hoods in the woods" group.Wrong, and you won't admit that or the fact that this topic is beyond your realm of expertise. Admit your mistake or drop it and start another thread.

sasquatch2014
08-23-2008, 22:30
Smith once again you prove that ignorance prejudice and fear walk hand in hand in your world. I am truly sorry for you. Having worked in a counseling environment in the past I have seen what giving a child an opportunity for success can bring. But you are entitled to continue to paint your world view with the wide brush that you seem to prefer to use. Its much easier that way to white wash things rather than look at the details that make things unique and different. I for one would prefer to share a camp with this group of kids rather than you than you I believe that their view on the world, even given their current station in life, would be much more bright.

modiyooch
08-24-2008, 08:01
How many people actually come from a perfect home life? There are many success stories out there. Greg Laurie and Joyce Meyers quickly comes to mind. Then there is my mother-in-law, all my brothers and sisters, ...... I think that we sometimes have to walk this path in our life in order to help someone else on the same path. It also builds character, strength and faith and I guess compassion.

Grey Fox
08-31-2008, 13:17
Lunchbx- i worked at Timber Ridge in NC and can tell you all about it...I'll send you a PM. Hope to talk to you soon!

Grey Fox
08-31-2008, 13:26
4) I had a long private conversation once on the AT with the adult counselor head of such a group. He volunteered that such programs were primarily just a way to warehouse such minors at minimum risk to the productive part of the society until they were old enough for jail (if male) or jail and/or single motherhood on welfare (if female). The woods setting was more so the kids had less access to theft/vandalism opportunities, more than BC the woods would be healthy or pleasing to them.


Wow- try working at one of these programs and tell me that the wilderness doesn't help out these boys. While i was working at Timber Ridge two of the boys got into a fight over something idiotic. One attacked another one with a large stick- after we got them apart we sat in a huddle and tried to clam them down they noticed a bug that had got caught in a spider web. The two boys (and one other) watched the spider catch and spin the bug in its web for twenty minutes without a word. Afterwards they acted like best friends talking about how cool it was. The calming ability of nature has been proven many times over. Try reading "Last Child in the Woods" by Richard Louv- it'll shed light on the subject.

minnesotasmith
08-31-2008, 14:25
4) I had a long private conversation once on the AT with the adult counselor head of such a group. He volunteered that such programs were primarily just a way to warehouse such minors at minimum risk to the productive part of the society until they were old enough for jail (if male) or jail and/or single motherhood on welfare (if female). The woods setting was more so the kids had less access to theft/vandalism opportunities, more than BC the woods would be healthy or pleasing to them.


Wow- try working at one of these programs and tell me that the wilderness doesn't help out these boys. While i was working at Timber Ridge two of the boys got into a fight over something idiotic. One attacked another one with a large stick- after we got them apart we sat in a huddle and tried to clam them down they noticed a bug that had got caught in a spider web. The two boys (and one other) watched the spider catch and spin the bug in its web for twenty minutes without a word. Afterwards they acted like best friends talking about how cool it was. The calming ability of nature has been proven many times over. Try reading "Last Child in the Woods" by Richard Louv- it'll shed light on the subject.

It wasn't my opinion, but that of someone whose job it was (and had been for quite a while, surely years) to supervise groups of delinquents in the woods. I believed at the time (and still do) that he was giving not only his opinion of the main use to the programs as they actually operated, but also what he had observed were the apparent goals of those overseeing them at high levels. I think he was entitled to opinions in this area worth taking seriously, whether or not they're politically correct.

Oh, and it's not "ignorance" or "bigotry" to have a negative opinion of people who act a certain way (e.g., commit petty crimes like theft from an early age, refuse to work or attend school, litter, set fires in the woods, whatever). It can be greater knowledge that leads to such considered judgements. Arguably, the more-positive opinion holders may often be the far more ignorant or bigoted ones (just in a different direction)...

Lyle
08-31-2008, 15:09
Someone I truly hope to never have the misfortune to meet.

minnesotasmith
08-31-2008, 15:28
Someone I truly hope to never have the misfortune to meet.

Do you prefer to associate only with ignorant and/or dishonest people?

MOWGLI
08-31-2008, 15:29
Oh, and it's not "ignorance" or "bigotry" to have a negative opinion of people who act a certain way ...


When MS starts talking about ignorance & bigotry, pay close attention. Those are two subjects he is an expert on.

ed bell
08-31-2008, 15:32
<snip>
2) From what I know of such programs (my mother was a counselor for many years, and I heard about them over many a dinner table), kids don't get put in them just BC their mothers divorced their fathers or they flunked math once. They had had to be pulling something significant repeatedly as a rule to get put in them. That doesn't mean perfect attendance at school, good grades, volunteer work, church attendance, etc., but petty shoplifting, truancy, minor to moderate chemical abuse, running away, and such. Odds are pretty good these kids aren't.

Yeesh. State a simple fact, and people lose their entire brains.Again, the kids in this program are not juvenile delinquents. Read the article: http://www.newstimes.com/ci_10281509
It's a community outreach program. Here is the website:http://www.facfc.org/cs.php

daibutsu
08-31-2008, 16:59
Too bad an opinion can ignite such PC fervor; in Minnesota's defense there are big time indicators of anti social behavior and mostly these kids corraled into "outdoor programs," end up in long term "indoor confinement." Jumping around from the specific to the general, like this entire thread has done; generally, if trends, profiling, and predetermination are so unfair why isn't 50 percent of the prison population female? Why do insurance companies charge big premiums for under 25 yo drivers ? Why am i more nervous in a dark alley with low hanging head bangers than rugby players? I'll tell you why, there are traits that follow groups of people.

MOWGLI
08-31-2008, 17:35
Too bad an opinion can ignite such PC fervor....

Since when did fact morph into political correctness?

minnesotasmith
08-31-2008, 17:45
Since when did fact morph into political correctness?

I'd say hardly ever. ;)

smokymtnsteve
08-31-2008, 17:51
I'd say hardly ever. ;)

when is you cummin to AK, MS...

MOWGLI
08-31-2008, 17:57
Well, since you're the one spouting factual inaccuracies about the program discussed in this article, and replacing facts with trite generalizations, it's pretty clear who being PC, and who is not. ;)

minnesotasmith
08-31-2008, 18:06
when is you cummin to AK, MS...

No later than April after next year's thruhike. (May have to go back to work in "Outside" to get a stake for moving first.) The GF is all fired up to go there, loving what she has seen in my Alaska books, what she's seen online, and what little I've been able to tell her from my modest time in Alaska. The latter consists solely of a few days in Anchorage, and working a little on the North Slope and in Kenai. I want more of Alaska than that, much more...

daibutsu
08-31-2008, 18:36
Well, since you're the one spouting factual inaccuracies about the program discussed in this article, and replacing facts with trite generalizations, it's pretty clear who being PC, and who is not. ;)


Generalizations are just that; generalizations. It's typically cited trite specifics that somehow are supposed to defeat obviously established generalizations. I knew a few kids that benefitted from forced woodsmanship; IMHO most do not. Heck, there is likely a fraction of Boy Scouts that don't !! Blasphemy!!!

minnesotasmith
08-31-2008, 18:42
Too bad an opinion can ignite such PC fervor; in Minnesota's defense there are big time indicators of anti social behavior and mostly these kids corraled into "outdoor programs," end up in long term "indoor confinement." Jumping around from the specific to the general, like this entire thread has done; generally, if trends, profiling, and predetermination are so unfair why isn't 50 percent of the prison population female? Why do insurance companies charge big premiums for under 25 yo drivers ? Why am i more nervous in a dark alley with low hanging head bangers than rugby players? I'll tell you why, there are traits that follow groups of people.

One collection of statistics on what can be expected from many such "high-risk" children: (Warning! Contains facts! Those offended by such should NOT click on this link!)

http://www.childrensjustice.org/fatherlessness2.htm

And, that doesn't even touch on the ones growing up around (or even using) controlled substances from an early age.. :(

MOWGLI
08-31-2008, 18:52
Generalizations are just that; generalizations. It's typically cited trite specifics that somehow are supposed to defeat obviously established generalizations. I knew a few kids that benefitted from forced woodsmanship; IMHO most do not. Heck, there is likely a fraction of Boy Scouts that don't !! Blasphemy!!!

Well, when those trite generalizations tow the typical party line, facts be damned, and are offered to try and advance an agenda (see post #38), then it crosses the line and becomes political correctness.

Back to the subject at hand, I have met quite a few groups (and their leaders) in the woods working with troubled youth. Fact is, violent youth and kids who are a real threat to themselves or others are rarely eligible for such programs. Those kids are incarcerated.

minnesotasmith
08-31-2008, 18:55
Fact is, violent youth and kids who are a real threat to themselves or others are rarely eligible for such programs. Those kids are incarcerated.

That top adult leader of such a group I talked at length to told me that the kids were all thieves, if not overly cunning/bright about it.

Lyle
08-31-2008, 19:05
Generalizations are just that; generalizations. It's typically cited trite specifics that somehow are supposed to defeat obviously established generalizations. I knew a few kids that benefitted from forced woodsmanship; IMHO most do not. Heck, there is likely a fraction of Boy Scouts that don't !! Blasphemy!!!

When I started working for Vision Quest the Rand Corporation had just completed a study of 100 youth who had successfully completed the VisionQuest program. In the study they found that at one year 60% of the youth had had no further contact with law enforcement. Pretty good odds to help some of these most hard-core juveniles.

The following excerpt is taken from the US Government's "Helping America's Youth" website:

Evaluation

The evaluation employed a quasi-experimental design with nonequivalent comparison-groups design. The first group studied consisted of 257 male juveniles placed at a probation camp. The second group (the treatment group) consisted of 90 males released from the VisionQuest program. Notably, one fourth of the juveniles rejected their assignment to the VisionQuest program and became the third group in the study. These 66 males were assigned to various placements. Although the experimental VisionQuest group consisted of more serious offenders than the comparison group, the differences between the groups were controlled statistically through the careful selection of relevant variables. Recidivism was the primary outcome measure in an 18-month follow-up.

Outcome

The evaluation revealed that VisionQuest youths were substantially less likely to be rearrested in the 1st year after release than the traditional group (55 percent compared with 71 percent). When differences in group characteristics were statistically controlled, 1st year re-arrest rates for VisionQuest youths were about half that of the control youths. In addition, a cost–benefit analysis showed that VisionQuest was more expensive to implement than the comparison programs, but the authors show that the benefits of reduced recidivism outweigh these higher costs.

Seems to me that these results are encouraging, at the least, that a good portion of the youth who end up placed in a program are salvageable.

One of the problems with some of the programs that others have mentioned on this post may be in the expectations given to the youth. If the counselors and staff involved do not believe in the program or the youth, the kids will pick up on this. These staff/counselors should do everyone a favor and find other lines of work. They certainly are not part of the solution, but an affirmation of the problem.

ed bell
08-31-2008, 19:10
One collection of statistics on what can be expected from many such "high-risk" children: (Warning! Contains facts! Those offended by such should NOT click on this link!)

http://www.childrensjustice.org/fatherlessness2.htm

And, that doesn't even touch on the ones growing up around (or even using) controlled substances from an early age.. :(Precisely why folks working in programs like the one my wife ran for SCJJ for a couple years attempt to make a difference by tackling the tough job of reforming troubled youth. Recidivism rates in my wife's Wilderness Camp were around 30% compared to 70% when the kids ended up in the juvenile detention center. I have no trouble with acknowledging that "high risk" adolescents can end up with destroyed lives. Having said that, believing that "high risk" kids are doomed is pessimistic and fatalistic. I do have a problem with disparaging and maligning programs that attempt to turn the tide for these kids.

BTW, the kids in the original article are not even close to being in the same ballpark as the adolescents my wife dealt with. That is why I still contend that MS has incorrectly called that program "yet another hoods in the woods". It's not. It's that simple.

ed bell
08-31-2008, 19:16
Back to the subject at hand, I have met quite a few groups (and their leaders) in the woods working with troubled youth. Fact is, violent youth and kids who are a real threat to themselves or others are rarely eligible for such programs. Those kids are incarcerated.100% correct. There is an interview process that has many factors taken into account before an adolescent is selected. Part of the reason these programs work is the fact that the kids are kept away from the more hard core offenders that tend to do nothing but negatively influence the ones around them. Visit a Juvenile Detention Center and you will understand why all juvenile delinquents do not need to experience that.

ed bell
08-31-2008, 19:18
Good post, Lyle.

Tin Man
09-01-2008, 08:55
Generalizations are for those who think they are Generals on certain topics and are about as useless as their lack of basis in facts. In this case, I personally know one of the kids mentioned in the article. The kid's father is in jail and his mother took off to parts unknown. The kid is being raised by an aunt and uncle, who are upstanding citizens and parents. The kid does well in school, plays sports, and in all respects is just another great kid.

MS, you ass is showing... again.

minnesotasmith
09-01-2008, 11:15
Generalizations are for those who think they are Generals on certain topics and are about as useless as their lack of basis in facts. In this case, I personally know one of the kids mentioned in the article. The kid's father is in jail and his mother took off to parts unknown. The kid is being raised by an aunt and uncle, who are upstanding citizens and parents. The kid does well in school, plays sports, and in all respects is just another great kid.

A member of the "Well, MY grandpa smoked 4 packs of cigarettes a day and lived to be 100, so obviously this stuff about smoking can cause cancer is complete BS" club. You should look up the term "central tendencies" sometime. There are exceptions to many rules, but the rules are valid enough of the time, so they remain useful if imperfect predictors.

People with screwed-up upbringings end up screwed-up adults often enough that if the option's there (whether looking for an employee, a spouse, a business partner, or whatever), the odds are still better to find someone who chances are aren't maimed inside. Harlow's experiments and the axiom "as the twig is bent, so [usually] goes the tree" are particularly instructive...

Tin Man
09-01-2008, 11:27
A member of the "Well, MY grandpa smoked 4 packs of cigarettes a day and lived to be 100, so obviously this stuff about smoking can cause cancer is complete BS" club. You should look up the term "central tendencies" sometime. There are exceptions to many rules, but the rules are valid enough of the time, so they remain useful if imperfect predictors.

People with screwed-up upbringings end up screwed-up adults often enough that if the option's there (whether looking for an employee, a spouse, a business partner, or whatever), the odds are still better to find someone who odds are aren't maimed inside. Harlow's experiments and the axiom "as the twig is bent, so [usually] goes the tree" are particularly instructive...

Useful predictors? Maybe if no one steps into help. In this case, an aunt and uncle took in the boy and there are volunteers with a program to help. I am sure many of the other kids are supported by strong families as well. I hope you run into many of these groups on your next thru, so you can see for yourself that kids starting with a disadvantage are just kids and the programs are merely one piece to help keep them on track to lead normal lives. At a minimum, I would guess they will grow up with a broader, more open perspective than you appear to have.

Oh, and I don't belong to any dang club that is blind to the world around me... but you seem well entrenched in the Archy Bunker Club.

modiyooch
09-01-2008, 11:53
we are beating a dead horse. He is not going to budge. We cannot compete with what has been drilled into his head at dinner time nightly by his momma.

as we have been told, the fruit bears what the tree produces. It cannot change.

It not some of the facts that we are having problems, but the absolutes, generalizations and hopelessness.

Tin Man
09-01-2008, 11:55
we are beating a dead horse. He is not going to budge. We cannot compete with what has been drilled into his head at dinner time nightly by his momma.

as we have been told, the fruit bears what the tree produces. It cannot change.

It not some of the facts that we are having problems, but the absolutes, generalizations and hopelessness.

I know. I think he needs more help than these kids.