View Full Version : How did native americans
rootball
08-30-2008, 19:20
Having done some trail maintenance -and wishing at times for a chainsaw and a brush cutter - I wonder how did the native americans clear blow downs from their roads and trails?
sasquatch2014
08-30-2008, 19:29
Having done some trail maintenance -and wishing at times for a chainsaw and a brush cutter - I wonder how did the native americans clear blow downs from their roads and trails?
They weren't as concerned with the idea that the trail should be this way or that if a blow down occurred I figure they just made a new trail around it. If it was too bad they just yellow blazed around it.;)
buff_jeff
08-30-2008, 19:31
They weren't as concerned with the idea that the trail should be this way or that if a blow down occurred I figure they just made a new trail around it. If it was too bad they just yellow blazed around it.;)
They were cheaters???? :eek:
Gray Blazer
08-30-2008, 20:17
Prolly made the women do it.
Lone Wolf
08-30-2008, 20:41
Having done some trail maintenance -and wishing at times for a chainsaw and a brush cutter - I wonder how did the native americans clear blow downs from their roads and trails?
they didn't. they went around. made new trails. simple
Slo-go'en
08-30-2008, 20:49
You got to remeber, the forests were completly different back before the white man showed up and started clear cutting (and making raods). Today, we have no concept of what the east coast forest used to look like. Plus, they usually followed water paths.
Silver Bear
08-30-2008, 20:55
Mule and ox teams. Hard work didn't upset them, they were used to it.
fiddlehead
08-30-2008, 21:10
You got to remeber, the forests were completly different back before the white man showed up and started clear cutting (and making raods). Today, we have no concept of what the east coast forest used to look like. Plus, they usually followed water paths.
I agree.
Old Growth forests have WAY less blowdowns.
Which native Americans are you talking about?
The ones that followed the buffalo herds didn't have many trees around i believe.
How many old growth forests are there around anymore? Not many, but the ones that are are pretty nice walking around in: especially the redwoods, aye? I would bet if they had a huge cyclone type storm and few of those fell down, they would move to a place with less blowdowns as THEY would really hamper their style. But removing them? I don't think so.
Gray Blazer
08-30-2008, 21:12
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but, if there was any work to do they prolly made the women do it. Unless they were Amazon's.
fiddlehead
08-30-2008, 21:24
You are probably right Gray Blazer.
Many cultures still have the women do most of the work.
Until it comes time to get the big game or go to war.
In Asia, the women do most everything except: drive trucks or taxis, play football (soccer), catch fish.
Maybe that's why they won 2 medals in Olympic weightlifting (Thai women)
Old growth forests wouldn't have had nearly as much undergrowth as what we see today ..... walking around a blowdown wouldn't have been much trouble. With a few years, the new trail would become the only trail.
You are probably right Gray Blazer.
Many cultures still have the women do most of the work.
Until it comes time to get the big game or go to war.
In Asia, the women do most everything except: drive trucks or taxis, play football (soccer), catch fish.
Maybe that's why they won 2 medals in Olympic weightlifting (Thai women)
hoyawolf
08-30-2008, 21:55
slo go-en, you should relook the book 1491 for a good overview of recent scholarship on how native americans influenced and shaped their natural environment.
Nicksaari
08-30-2008, 22:26
as stated above, most trails were already imprinted through a lot of gaps, at least. indians used these trails for minor and major navigation through most gaps. for instance, rockfish gap and northward, as ive read in Albemarle county public history archives, the Anglos used the already "buffalo blazed" trails through such gaps as Jarman, McCormick, and Beagle gaps.
The Native American Indians that lived in Virginia's blue ridge were skilled hunters and game in a abundance. Im sure they had hunting trails that were blazed to their liking, as well as numerous navigational trail that were most likely blazed with some sort marking on trees or cairns at trail junctions.
dropping bombs of historical knowledge after drinking sierra nevada.
Nicksaari
08-30-2008, 22:28
im sure the forest back then was magical. impossible to grasp the abundance of wildlife, the game, flora, immeasurably aged hardwoods, no beer...
Wise Old Owl
08-30-2008, 23:55
The Balds at Shanendoah are "claimed" to be cleared by indians - so I can agree that they would go around in an old growth forest - How did they make the balds for better hunting grounds of deer?
Periodic burns of undergrowth... most of the east coast was parkland forest when europeans got here. trails were footpaths and major commerce was conducted by water. There was no need for 'roads' until the spanish showed up with horses in the 1500's. Load weight before that was limited to what a person could carry on their back which, contrary to all you ultralight weenies out there is about 100 pounds... :D
Tha Wookie
08-31-2008, 01:27
I would imagine that in a society supported by myriad path networks, they probably didn't follow one single path as much as we did, making a blowdown much less of an issue.
I would imagine some people thanked the creator for such a gift and stopped in their travels to utilize the bark, the leaves, the wood, the roots, the rocks upturned at the roots, the fruits and flowers, the shaken out nests, nuts, branches, burls, buds, etc. etc.
or maybe just walked around with some passing words under the breath.
Odd Thomas
08-31-2008, 02:10
Having done some trail maintenance -and wishing at times for a chainsaw and a brush cutter - I wonder how did the native americans clear blow downs from their roads and trails?
I wouldn't have thought agricultural people would have traveled all that much before we showed up and scattered them, and brought horses.
Having done some trail maintenance -and wishing at times for a chainsaw and a brush cutter - I wonder how did the native americans clear blow downs from their roads and trails?
I have often thought that the label "native" American as applied to the American Indian was a misnomer because they really aren't-just the first group to migrate to this hemisphere.
Now, the camel and the horse, those are, in fact, "native" American!
sasquatch2014
08-31-2008, 11:55
There was a National Geographic Article about a year or so ago on Jamestown and in this one of the things that they pointed out was how much of a difference the Earth Worm has made to the forests. The article stated that pre European arrival the debris on the forest floor was so deep that it blew into drifts at time several feet deep. The arrival of the earth worms often in root balls of plants brought by settlers and other times as ballast for the ships has changed this depth and changed the growth of undergrowth especially. It was interesting to think that something as simple as a worm could have such an impact. It is possible years later that the Native Americans learned to use the worms to their benefit and possibly harnessed them to move blow downs. ;)
Tipi Walter
08-31-2008, 12:02
I have often thought that the label "native" American as applied to the American Indian was a misnomer because they really aren't-just the first group to migrate to this hemisphere.
Now, the camel and the horse, those are, in fact, "native" American!
If being here for 20,000 years doesn't constitute "native", what does? And anyway, according to the latest research we all started as hominids in Africa and spread across the globe from there. So, in your definition, none of us are native except for those few around that special spot in Africa.
mtnkngxt
08-31-2008, 12:39
Actually they are not. The horse was brought to the Americas by the Spanish. About 15000 years BP (Before Present) nomadic hunters from Asia crossed across the land bridge of Beringia what is now the Bering Straight and formed small hunting groups that traveled into the Americas. When the last Ice Age ended and these people became trapped in America around 10,000 BP. They began to settle in the north and migrate south. As can be seen in evidence found in the Rock Fish Caves in Alaska. It is believed that some from Asia may have come over in boats around then and they would have settled the southern americas. Over the years they evolved into what is now considered native americans. It is uncertain the exact dates "white men" came over first, but it is assumed they first colonized in the Americas around the time of the Vikings. So in fact until further proven the direct descendants of these nomadic hunters that became trapped after the end of the last Ice Age would be the true native americans. Administration of Justice and History Major here.
sasquatch2014
08-31-2008, 12:50
Actually they are not. The horse was brought to the Americas by the Spanish. About 15000 years BP (Before Present) nomadic hunters from Asia crossed across the land bridge of Beringia what is now the Bering Straight and formed small hunting groups that traveled into the Americas. When the last Ice Age ended and these people became trapped in America around 10,000 BP. They began to settle in the north and migrate south. As can be seen in evidence found in the Rock Fish Caves in Alaska. It is believed that some from Asia may have come over in boats around then and they would have settled the southern americas. Over the years they evolved into what is now considered native americans. It is uncertain the exact dates "white men" came over first, but it is assumed they first colonized in the Americas around the time of the Vikings. So in fact until further proven the direct descendants of these nomadic hunters that became trapped after the end of the last Ice Age would be the true native americans. Administration of Justice and History Major here.
I still don't understand where the UFO's fit into all of this? Or were they like Contract employees and only here for big building projects and lines in the deserts and stuff?:-?
Having done some trail maintenance -and wishing at times for a chainsaw and a brush cutter - I wonder how did the native americans clear blow downs from their roads and trails?
dude, where you think Native American Totem Poles come from? when they found a nice blow down... chop! chop! chop! and definitely not the women, they were doing the paint job on them:D (on the totems)
Pedaling Fool
08-31-2008, 13:12
Blowdowns were just as common before we arrived as they are today. Four major reasons I see as causing blowdowns:
1. Steep terrain
2. Rocky soil
3. Heavy rains
4. Wind
Look around when you are hiking, the trail may or may not be steep, but the surrounding terrain is, and it's rocky. Look at the trees, they're on a steep slope, plus their root system is exposed because of the rocks underneath. This is common through out the length of the AT, not all sections, but in a significant portion. For reasons 1 & 2, trees cannot obtain a firm foundation in this environment, so when the rain and wind comes it knocks them down, much quicker than it would if the trees were on level, non-rocky ground.
That is why trees are not big along the AT corridor, not because of deforestation.
mtnkngxt
08-31-2008, 13:12
UFOs were too busy fighting the Russians man.
Pedaling Fool
08-31-2008, 13:16
I would imagine that in a society supported by myriad path networks, they probably didn't follow one single path as much as we did, making a blowdown much less of an issue...
Someone must have used them or else nature would have reclaimed their trails. If people don't hike on trails then it would require much more trail maintenance to maintain the trail. In a way hikers do trail maintenance.
Gray Blazer
08-31-2008, 13:20
not the women, they were doing the paint job on them:D (on the totems)
Talk about blowdowns!!
Gray Blazer
08-31-2008, 13:24
If being here for 20,000 years doesn't constitute "native", what does? And anyway, according to the latest research we all started as hominids in Africa and spread across the globe from there. So, in your definition, none of us are native except for those few around that special spot in Africa.
Dude, you've been here 20,000 years?!? Have you ever met the Highlander? I'm a native, but, I've only been here 54 years.
I can't believe he said the horse was more native than you.
If being here for 20,000 years doesn't constitute "native", what does? And anyway, according to the latest research we all started as hominids in Africa and spread across the globe from there. So, in your definition, none of us are native except for those few around that special spot in Africa.
yep, you are right. So far it would appear all of us are "native" Africans, at least that is where our mitochondrial DNA has been traced to, indicating that, in deed, there may very well have been an 'Eve'..
The horse originated in the Americas, migrated westward across the land bridge, expanded in Asia, died out in the Americas, and were returned here by the Spaniards.
minnesotasmith
08-31-2008, 15:26
I wouldn't have thought agricultural people would have traveled all that much before we showed up and scattered them, and brought horses.
1) There were horses native to the Americas, but the American aborigines (term I consider more accurate than "Native American", a title I claim) hunted them into extinction long before.
2) Hunter-gatherers do have to move around a fair amount as they hunt out the game and pull up nearly all the edible roots, etc. , rather more than do primarily agricultural societies. The latter are the ones where people commonly lived out their entire lives in a 10x10 mile area.
3) I think the AAs mainly used fire and/or girdling (removing tree bark in a ring all the way around a tree so as to kill it) when they wanted to clear land. Their philosophy was apparently that patience is easier than effort, especially with the low level of technology their societies supported (no use of the wheel, metal smelting, gunpowder, etc).
Tha Wookie
08-31-2008, 17:28
Someone must have used them or else nature would have reclaimed their trails. If people don't hike on trails then it would require much more trail maintenance to maintain the trail. In a way hikers do trail maintenance.
Animals use trails too -quite a lot actually. Two-leggeds and four-leggeds alike tend to follow the path of least resistance.:D
smokymtnsteve
08-31-2008, 17:41
Animals use trails too -quite a lot actually. Two-leggeds and four-leggeds alike tend to follow the path of least resistance.:D
esp. those darn moose in the winter..
trouthunter
09-01-2008, 00:15
Native Americans did not "clear" blowdowns. It was considered part of the way things were.You did not alter the path that nature chose.
Tha Wookie
09-01-2008, 01:33
Native Americans did not "clear" blowdowns. It was considered part of the way things were.You did not alter the path that nature chose.
As someone else already said, read the book 1491. It's very interesting.:D
Pedaling Fool
09-01-2008, 10:51
Do not alter the path nature chose?:datz
A new religion evolving. :rolleyes:
trouthunter
09-01-2008, 12:08
I have read 1491. There is a lot of speculation in the book, as is the case with most books of that nature. Indians were/are of the mindset that you do not alter nature just to satisfy your needs or whims. They were not wasteful, using their resources wisely and trying to live in harmony with nature. You know, go with the flow.
I am part Cherokee, I have spent a good bit of time in Cherokee country doing trail maintenance, establishing primitive campsites ect. I have dug Ginseng side by side with full Cherokee and I am familiar with their way of thinking.
You would not move a blow down just to clear the path for your own convenience. Lots of times blow downs actually serve the purpose of erosion control on the trail, depends on the terrain of course.
Not only did they conserve resources from nature, they also conserved their own time and energy as a necessity. They would not have carried a blow down all the way back to a tribal area to be used as a Totem Pole or a dug out. The native Indians were very ceremonial and that just wouldn't be the way they would do that.
Walk around or hop over! You don't have time to "clear" blow downs when the meat you are carrying HAS to get back Quickly, or you need to hurry to meet other natives waiting on you for the purpose of trading. They were a very busy people and did not have time to do trail maintenance the way we think of it today. They were used to the forest and didn't give it a second thought. They were not spoiled by sidewalks like people today!
I'm not saying they did not alter the landscape, they did, but not miles away from the tribal areas as it would be too time consuming, They spent many hours every day hunting, gathering, repairing, taking care of animals and farming. They also had to make all the tools and weapons they needed to survive.
They did not waste time moving some tree that happened to fall across the path 20 miles from home. How often do we stop to do that as we hike, trying to get somewhere before dark?
Pedaling Fool
09-01-2008, 12:14
I have read 1491...
Is this the actual title of that book (1491)? I'm kind of interested in reading it, who's the aurthor?
Pedaling Fool
09-01-2008, 12:20
http://www.amazon.com/1491-Revelations-Americas-Before-Columbus/dp/140004006X
Never mind, I found it.
hoyawolf
09-01-2008, 12:31
to answer the charges above i would say that archeology is the science of speculation and interpretation based upon recovery of physical evidence.
Tha Wookie
09-01-2008, 13:22
http://www.amazon.com/1491-Revelations-Americas-Before-Columbus/dp/140004006X
Never mind, I found it.
make sure you follow through. It's a great book.:D
Dances with Mice
09-01-2008, 14:32
The forests that the AT traverses today is in no way, shape or form the forests of the 13th or 14th centuries. Or even the forests that Davey Crockett blazed.
Well, that is unless you can spend months hiking through a mature (200+ years) grove of Amerian Chestnut trees. When you can do that get back to me.
The forests you see today are not the forests of history. Nope. Not at all.
hoyawolf
09-01-2008, 14:38
hard to believe that a squirrel could at one point could go from the atlantic to the miss. river valley on huge chestnuts and elms.
oh for the good old days!
dessertrat
09-01-2008, 16:10
The Balds at Shanendoah are "claimed" to be cleared by indians - so I can agree that they would go around in an old growth forest - How did they make the balds for better hunting grounds of deer?
There is more forage for deer in grasslands and new growth. The Indians probably cleared the land intentionally, to make a "new growth" zone which would attract deer.
dessertrat
09-01-2008, 16:12
There was a National Geographic Article about a year or so ago on Jamestown and in this one of the things that they pointed out was how much of a difference the Earth Worm has made to the forests. The article stated that pre European arrival the debris on the forest floor was so deep that it blew into drifts at time several feet deep. The arrival of the earth worms often in root balls of plants brought by settlers and other times as ballast for the ships has changed this depth and changed the growth of undergrowth especially. It was interesting to think that something as simple as a worm could have such an impact. It is possible years later that the Native Americans learned to use the worms to their benefit and possibly harnessed them to move blow downs. ;)
They didn't have earthworms until the Europeans came? Are you sh**ting me?:eek:
Pedaling Fool
09-01-2008, 16:26
They didn't have earthworms until the Europeans came? Are you sh**ting me?:eek:
That was pretty funny:D
Tipi Walter
09-01-2008, 16:35
They didn't have earthworms until the Europeans came? Are you sh**ting me?:eek:
The northern latitudes of North America did not have many earthworms before Columbus, but just 33% of all North American earthworm types are exotic or introduced from Europe, the other 67% of worm types were already here. It's just another blight the immigrants and boat people from Europe and England brought to this continent.
im sure the forest back then was magical. impossible to grasp the abundance of wildlife, the game, flora, immeasurably aged hardwoods, no beer...no beer. no magic.
Ya gotta love those mesopotamians .... their great contribution to history .... Beer.
That, and the modern alphabet, but that's just a little thing.
hard to believe that a squirrel could at one point could go from the atlantic to the miss. river valley on huge chestnuts and elms.
oh for the good old days!
Ime doutful the bushy-tailed rats coodah hopt frum 1 elmta anothah unless they was sumwheres along a rivah.
hard to believe that a squirrel could at one point could go from the atlantic to the miss. river valley on huge chestnuts and elms.
oh for the good old days!
Ime doutful the bushy-tailed rats coodah hopt frum 1 elmta anothah unless they was sumwheres along a rivah.
A Flying Squirrel coulda dunit non stop :rolleyes: :D
sasquatch2014
09-01-2008, 20:08
They didn't have earthworms until the Europeans came? Are you sh**ting me?:eek:
I'll try to dig up the Nat Geo article so I can tell you exactly what they said.
Nearly Normal
09-01-2008, 20:50
I only fish with American worms.................
................................................us ing Chinese tackle.
I find it funny that we are arguing about unrecorded historical trivia, as if we had knew what people thought and did hundreds of years ago.
Even funnier is someone claiming to be an authority on how Native Americans thought and acted in the 1400's because he is part Native American.
Well, I'm Caucasian and I don't think it gives me any special insight into how the Sheriff felt about trees that blew down in Nottingham Forest, or whether the Druids used scythes or sheep to keep the grass neat at Stonehenge.
trouthunter
09-01-2008, 22:57
Frosty, sorry didn't mean to come across as some know it all authority. I'm not! Only claiming to know how they think and act today, and just the ones I have been around that still live somewhat primitive. I will try to be more specific here on.
If you spend lots of time with them in the woods you see that they don't think the way a lot of hikers think. They would not clear a blow down because there is no need to.
Of course being any particular race does not instantly give you insight that others do not have. But being around a particular culture some that has not changed much until recent history gives you a unique perspective.
For example, when most people harvest Ginseng root, they dig it, and move to the next plant. When I was harvesting up in Cherokee we only harvested at a time when the plants were in bloom and the plants seeds were ready to be planted.
This way you plant 3 or 4 plants for each one you harvest. Not as quick in the short run but makes for a bigger harvest in subsequent years. They have a way of working with nature instead of against it.