View Full Version : Women Should Not Hike Alone
Appalachian Tater
09-01-2008, 14:15
http://www.blueridgenow.com/article/20080830/OPINION/808280216/1016/opinion02&title=Women_should_not_hike_alone
Yes, yes I realize I’m old fashioned to think of women alone in the woods as targets. In some warped and soulless men that is exactly what women are. And yes, I know statistics prove that for the majority of women who hike alone it is perfectly safe.
That is small comfort indeed for women such as Karen Styles, killed a few years ago in the woods, or Meredith Emerson, one of the victims Ms. Davis is memorializing.
The fact is, contrary to what good and idealistic people may think, there really are goblin-like men who literally haunt out-of-the-way places to do horrible things to women. Especially women who think statistics will protect them. These men love to torture and kill. It is more than a mere thrill. It is the very thing that keeps them going.
I would no more advise my 34-year-old daughter or any woman for that matter to go alone in the woods than I would advise them to take a nice leisurely stroll through an inner city neighborhood at 3 in the morning.
Walkie Talkie
09-01-2008, 14:32
The problem isn't women hiking alone. It is the men who stalk them. Your post should be "Men should not harm women".
Men should be men enough to not prey on women...
Be that there are predators out there, women should be prepared to defend themselves when they go hiking alone.
It used to be called wilderness because it was wild, uncivilized. The "law of the wilds" rules here, and only the thin veneer of civilization that people take with them protects any of us.
Unfortunately, predators are social deviants, psycho-pathically incapable of compassion, and see women (or children, or sometimes just the weak) as prey. The thrill of the hunt, and the twisted gratification of dominance imposed on victims drives them.
Hard to stop that in the wilderness. That's why one needs to be prepared to defend oneself, mentally and tactically. (Whatever that means to you...):-?
NICKTHEGREEK
09-01-2008, 15:25
Men should be men enough to not prey on women...
Be that there are predators out there, women should be prepared to defend themselves when they go hiking alone.
It used to be called wilderness because it was wild, uncivilized. The "law of the wilds" rules here, and only the thin veneer of civilization that people take with them protects any of us.
Unfortunately, predators are social deviants, psycho-pathically incapable of compassion, and see women (or children, or sometimes just the weak) as prey. The thrill of the hunt, and the twisted gratification of dominance imposed on victims drives them.
Hard to stop that in the wilderness. That's why one needs to be prepared to defend oneself, mentally and tactically. (Whatever that means to you...):-?
You can't possibly be referring to the AT as a wilderness.:-?
Yanks have a reputation as being lousy lovers? What his wife tell him that! Stephen Black needs get a grip and hike his own hike.
Pedaling Fool
09-01-2008, 15:56
Yanks have a reputation as being lousy lovers? What his wife tell him that! Stephen Black needs get a grip and hike his own hike.
I don't know who Stephen Black is, but if that's a pic of him in the link, then he just needs to get out and hike. Weather it's his hike or someone elses' hike, just get out there and hike-off some of them pounds:D
dessertrat
09-01-2008, 16:02
The problem isn't women hiking alone. It is the men who stalk them. Your post should be "Men should not harm women".
And there should also be no wars. Why does anyone think that broad exhortations to "be good" have any effect on evil people?
Thinking thusly is sure to make such individuals vaporize!:rolleyes:
rubyvermonter
09-01-2008, 16:24
The author equated hiking alone on the AT to strolling through an inner city at 3 a.m. That is not an accurate analogy. Neither women nor men are safe walking in an inner city at 3 a.m. I have hiked alone several times. I feel safe on the trail and when off the trail I avoid hitchhiking alone and going to bars. This past August, when I hiked for 18 days from PA to VA, I read in the shelter logs about two incidents of concern earlier in the season -- one man had been mooching food and gear off of people and about a family which had been the victim of theft (food and gear). I did not read of anyone reporting negative behavior towards women. I'd like to encourage male hikers to note in the logs any suspicious men they encounter on the trail.
Rubyvermonter
This article is a load of crap.
Blue Jay
09-01-2008, 16:37
What a crock.
I second that. Americans love being afraid and trying to make others afraid. We're all going to die, many just like to stop living long before they stop breathing.
Old Hillwalker
09-01-2008, 16:54
I second that. Americans love being afraid and trying to make others afraid. We're all going to die, many just like to stop living long before they stop breathing.
Amen - :sun
Tipi Walter
09-01-2008, 17:02
I second that. Americans love being afraid and trying to make others afraid. We're all going to die, many just like to stop living long before they stop breathing.
I was gonna post something earlier about our culture of fear but you beat me to it. The news media-jackals are experts at instilling fear but it's all been said before. Anyone that does a lot of something(like backpacking), laughs at the trembling fears of those standing outside the backpacking world and what they see and spew with their quivering Nanny State hot air: Bear fears, lightning fears, cold fears, soloing fears, copperhead fears, woman-alone fears, etc etc etc. Some of the worst non-hackers are the pinhead wrinkled weathermen. If the temps dip to below 30, they warn about staying indoors as it will be "dangerously cold." If it's a sunny day they applaud and howl in glee whilst the region is in a serious drought and 26 inches behind in rainfall.
"Don't do that!" "Stay away from there!" "Wild animals will bite!" "Don't go out in winter!" "Watch out for the heat!" "Good god! There's bears out there!" "Ain't that a rattlesnake!" "You'll get lost!" "What if something happens and you're all alone!"
On and on. It's the mother you thought you left long ago now returned and henpecking us to death.
take-a-knee
09-01-2008, 17:58
removed
What a crock.
This article is a load of crap.
The problem isn't women hiking alone. It is the men who stalk them. Your post should be "Men should not harm women".
I agree completely. Apparently the author feels that women should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen as well... full-scale douschebaggery.
doggiebag
09-01-2008, 18:22
I don't know who Stephen Black is, but if that's a pic of him in the link, then he just needs to get out and hike. Weather it's his hike or someone elses' hike, just get out there and hike-off some of them pounds:D
The dude does look like he's got the capabilities and reflexes of an aging panda, if it comes down to a survival situation -
I'm betting on the female hikers I've met than panda man to come out on top. I think the guys projecting some personal issues.
http://images.blueridgenow.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=HT&Date=20080830&Category=OPINION&ArtNo=808280216&Ref=AR&Profile=1015&MaxW=250&border=0 (http://www.blueridgenow.com/article/20080830/OPINION/808280216/1016/opinion02&title=Women_should_not_hike_alone#)
Stephen Black
smokymtnsteve
09-01-2008, 18:28
I second that. Americans love being afraid and trying to make others afraid. We're all going to die, many just like to stop living long before they stop breathing.
why BJ what makes you think we are all going to die??...hehehe ...I'm here to stay!
be afraid ..very afraid ....and watch out for those wild Alaskan women ..they can really hurt you!
Neither women nor men are safe walking in an inner city at 3 a.m.
That's not true either. Manhattan, excepting a few neighborhoods, is safe at 3 AM. It's the city that never sleeps.
But people who have never been there and who need fear in order to advance their agenda will surely tell you otherwise.
smokymtnsteve
09-01-2008, 18:50
That's not true either. Manhattan, excepting a few neighborhoods, is safe at 3 AM. It's the city that never sleeps.
But people who have never been there and who need fear in order to advance their agenda will surely tell you otherwise.
still in NYC huh mowgli?:D
NICKTHEGREEK
09-01-2008, 18:51
This article is a load of crap.
That load of crap is no article
still in NYC huh mowgli?:D
Just in my head. You can take the Yankee out of New York...
daibutsu
09-01-2008, 19:04
Taking risk is taboo; that's why kids don't get out, video games trump tag, seeing old reruns of "Animal Planet" suffice for bee stings, knee pads reduce scarring, bike helmets avoid injury, sunlight causes cancer, strangers are strange, it goes on... Thank God the real Pioneers didn't watch tv. We'd all be bunched up on the East Coast worried about people in New Jersey.
minnesotasmith
09-01-2008, 19:20
But it's a waste of time. A small minority of people in any social strata would agree to the measures it would take to make the whole country safe for lone women. Far easier to make women not lone.
smokymtnsteve
09-01-2008, 19:31
But it's a waste of time. A small minority of people in any social strata would agree to the measures it would take to make the whole country safe for lone women. Far easier to make women not lone.
PLEASE STAND FOR THE GOSPEL OF ABBEY!
"Women who love only women may have a good point."
THANKS BE TO ABBEY!
CherrypieScout
09-01-2008, 20:15
I always hike alone, but I tell my family that there are always lots of other hikers out and about. I've only felt nervous a couple of times so I moved on. I did purchase a little gun this past January to carry, took lessons and read the book, Trail Safe - Averting Threatening Human Behavior in the Outdoors. It is about how to be smart and alert and, sadly, how to think like a predator. This July the Rangers in SNP were looking for a certain hiker wanted for asaulting a woman along the Blue Ridge Parkway. I spent a few anxious hours, but when I called to report a journal entry by him, I was told that he was in custody as of that afternoon. But when the Ranger first told me of him, I was first somewhat afraid, than angry that my hike might be messed up by him. The further off in the woods I am, the safer I feel. I stay in contact with home as much as possible, I leave a very detailed itenerary and do not share any information about my plans with other hikers, unless I really feel safe with them after a few hours of conversation. I also tune in to my intuition as I pass people along the way. It is not always possible to find hiking partners.
Pedaling Fool
09-01-2008, 21:34
I was gonna post something earlier about our culture of fear but you beat me to it. The news media-jackals are experts at instilling fear but it's all been said before. Anyone that does a lot of something(like backpacking), laughs at the trembling fears of those standing outside the backpacking world and what they see and spew with their quivering Nanny State hot air: Bear fears, lightning fears, cold fears, soloing fears, copperhead fears, woman-alone fears, etc etc etc. Some of the worst non-hackers are the pinhead wrinkled weathermen. If the temps dip to below 30, they warn about staying indoors as it will be "dangerously cold." If it's a sunny day they applaud and howl in glee whilst the region is in a serious drought and 26 inches behind in rainfall.
"Don't do that!" "Stay away from there!" "Wild animals will bite!" "Don't go out in winter!" "Watch out for the heat!" "Good god! There's bears out there!" "Ain't that a rattlesnake!" "You'll get lost!" "What if something happens and you're all alone!"
On and on. It's the mother you thought you left long ago now returned and henpecking us to death.
Here, Here! Or is it: Hear, Hear! Or maybe it's Hear, Here! Or possibly Here, Hear!
What I'm trying to say is: YEAH!:banana You pegged it Tipi!
Hammock Hanger
09-01-2008, 22:34
And I could get hit by a bus or in a car crash tomorrow. God willing I will never again fall victim to one of those craze men....
But I will continue to try and live my life to the fullest.
smokymtnsteve
09-01-2008, 22:42
nor I to a crazed woman, or man for that matter:eek:
Blue Jay
09-02-2008, 07:39
why BJ what makes you think we are all going to die??...hehehe ...I'm here to stay!
be afraid ..very afraid ....and watch out for those wild Alaskan women ..they can really hurt you!
You are correct about Alaskan Women, you can't even hide under your bed, because they find you.:banana Also if you're going to stay, I will too, hiking the AT forever.
skinny minnie
09-02-2008, 09:22
I completely agree with Tipi Walter. Culture of fear.
And this man is a tool.
I'm 25 and female and I have lived in a city (Boston) in a fairly rough area. I have lots of stories I could tell about bad things happening in my neighborhood, even to my roommates. But I felt unsafe only once in 3 years... and the men who approached me turned out to be lost and needed directions. And I walked by myself at 2 am or later... on a regular basis. Anywhere there are human beings you have to accept there might be a few bad apples. You may never encounter them, though. No way am I going to cloister myself up or require an escort because of that. You just need to be alert and aware, and accept that there will be risks no matter where you go or who you are with.
Same with the woods. I'd venture a guess that I feel safer out hiking than that author does. Woman (and men) get murdered many places. It stands to reason that the woods is not exempt. Does that mean I should avoid it or venture out only with a chaperone or armed with a weapon? No. I think the odds of me getting raped or murdered are about the same in the woods as they are at home: slim to none. Judging from what I've read in articles*, it appears that since the 70's there have been 10 known murders on the trail. That's not too bad of a statistic, given the fact that thousands of people hike the AT each year. In fact, it's pretty good.
* Do a search online. There are articles as recent as May 2008 stating these numbers.
Jason of the Woods
09-02-2008, 10:17
I agree that this is silly. Anyone can be a target in the woods. I'm a skinny disabled fella so I suppose that I shouldn't either. You are more likely to have something happen in a trail town along the way. Besides I'm single now so if any ladies need a hiking partner just let me know.;)
superman
09-02-2008, 10:27
Folks keep moving to this small NH town from mostly NJ, NY, CT, MA. I live across the road from a 70 mile long rail/trail. It's not a remote trail. It's where the rail road tracks used to be. Walking, biking and snow mobiles are approved uses. No one has ever heard of a crime of any kind being commited on it. Yet every new comer is afraid to use it for fear of some unknown danger. Those of them who exercise do so on the major road (rte 4) that runs through this little town. In fact, more bad things have happened on that road than any where else in town. Car accidents are the biggest danger here. We have a one man police dept. who primarily has to deal with the out of staters who aren't used to driving on winding back roads. To re-cap...newbies fear the safe rail-trail but feel safe on the dangerous major road.
Blissful
09-02-2008, 11:03
I agree completely. Apparently the author feels that women should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen as well...
Actually we can do both - be a solo hiker and be barefoot and pregnant making a tasty meal in the kitchen. There's nothing wrong with either.
Actually we can do both - be a solo hiker and be barefoot and pregnant making a tasty meal in the kitchen. There's nothing wrong with either.
Very good point! :)
HikerRanky
09-02-2008, 11:26
As someone that has been in the media industry going on 35 years now, articles like this are nothing more than justification of having a person like Stephen Black on staff.... They read about something and then pontificate on the difficulties or the risks associated with what they read about.... It's about THEIR agenda. They wouldn't get out there and do it, they would rather sit behind a keyboard and talk about why others shouldn't do it.
Tipi, you hit the nail on the head there....
Randy
Randy, I was talking to some teachers at the middle school, and when one of them heard that I walk on the greenway, alone, they were shocked and asked me if I weren't afraid of being molested. I almost fell out of my seat laughing. Can you imagine being afraid to walk the greenway in White House? She was dumbfounded when I told her how I backpack alone. She's sure I'll be murdered.
HikerRanky
09-02-2008, 18:03
Randy, I was talking to some teachers at the middle school, and when one of them heard that I walk on the greenway, alone, they were shocked and asked me if I weren't afraid of being molested. I almost fell out of my seat laughing. Can you imagine being afraid to walk the greenway in White House? She was dumbfounded when I told her how I backpack alone. She's sure I'll be murdered.
Hey Mary!
I can believe it..... Many people believe that the only place they are secure is their house, work, or car.... yet that is exactly the places where most crimes happen....
My wife (5'2") goes out there a lot as well.... Sometimes she's by herself, and sometimes she has our 2 dogs (male and female German Shepherds)... I'm sure that most people think the same when she is out there by herself, and then they fear for their lives when she is out there with a 115 pound German Shepherd, and a 60 pound German Shepherd.... and both are EXTREMELY protective of her...
Again, it gets back to the media making everything out to be bad.... Good news doesn't bring in ratings.... Most days on the website I work at the page views stay the same until bad news happens.... Today Jerry Reed passed away.... when we put that up on the home page, the page views jumped thru the ceiling.... and inbound referrals from all sorts of places have increased.... Just like Don Henley said, "Give us dirty laundry"
Randy
minnesotasmith
09-02-2008, 19:03
My wife (5'2") goes out there a lot as well.... Sometimes she's by herself, and sometimes she has our 2 dogs (male and female German Shepherds)... I'm sure that most people think the same when she is out there by herself, and then they fear for their lives when she is out there with a 115 pound German Shepherd, and a 60 pound German Shepherd.... and both are EXTREMELY protective of her...
Randy
She doesn't neglect to keep them leashed and (not "or") muzzled 100% of the time she's on public land, just as a CCW-license-holder is expected to keep his pistol holstered and/or concealed, rather than waving it around and pointing it at random passersby. Her fears (valid or not) don't entitle her to make other innocent people feel threatened.
She doesn't neglect to keep them leashed and muzzled 100% of the time she's on public land, just as a CCW-license-holder is expected to keep his pistol holstered and/or concealed, rather than waving it around and pointing it at random passersby. Her fears (valid or not) don't entitle her to make other innocent people feel threatened.
Good point.
superman
09-02-2008, 19:57
Folks keep moving to this small NH town from mostly NJ, NY, CT, MA. I live across the road from a 70 mile long rail/trail. It's not a remote trail. It's where the rail road tracks used to be. Walking, biking and snow mobiles are approved uses. No one has ever heard of a crime of any kind being commited on it. Yet every new comer is afraid to use it for fear of some unknown danger. Those of them who exercise do so on the major road (rte 4) that runs through this little town. In fact, more bad things have happened on that road than any where else in town. Car accidents are the biggest danger here. We have a one man police dept. who primarily has to deal with the out of staters who aren't used to driving on winding back roads. To re-cap...newbies fear the safe rail-trail but feel safe on the dangerous major road.
Many americans don't know what to be afraid of or when.
HikerRanky
09-02-2008, 20:29
She doesn't neglect to keep them leashed and (not "or") muzzled 100% of the time she's on public land, just as a CCW-license-holder is expected to keep his pistol holstered and/or concealed, rather than waving it around and pointing it at random passersby. Her fears (valid or not) don't entitle her to make other innocent people feel threatened.
MS,
She does keep them leashed... Here in our area, dogs are not required to be muzzled when walking around.
Don't make this into a dogs are evil thread...
Randy
HikerRanky
09-02-2008, 20:33
Good point.
All due respect, she is just as entitled to walk our dogs around on public land that she pays the same taxes on....
I'm just saying that there are people that will evidently fear a dog, be it a German Shepherd or a tea cup poodle... something in their past has caused that fear....
Randy
I'm just saying that there are people that will evidently fear a dog, be it a German Shepherd or a tea cup poodle... something in their past has caused that fear....
Randy
Good point. ;)
"Don't do that!" "Stay away from there!" "Wild animals will bite!" "Don't go out in winter!" "Watch out for the heat!" "Good god! There's bears out there!" "Ain't that a rattlesnake!" "You'll get lost!" "What if something happens and you're all alone!"
On and on. It's the mother you thought you left long ago now returned and henpecking us to death.
It's worse than that I'm afraid .... next time you watch the news ask yourself what is the product they are actually selling?
They Sell FEAR .... and Americans line up by the millions to buy.
I'm just saying that there are people that will evidently fear a dog, be it a German Shepherd or a tea cup poodle... something in their past has caused that fear....
Randy
Yeah, like being attacked and bitten by one.
I don't want to go down the "dogs (particularly German shepherds) are evil" road either, but some of us have good reasons not to trust either the dogs or the assurances of dog owners that the dogs are harmless.
I like horses a lot. But last Sunday in the Smokies, a guy had his horse's butt right next to the AT. I went wide around it. He told me the horse wouldn't kick me, or, if it did, he'd take a stick to it.:rolleyes:
Not good enough.
HikerRanky
09-02-2008, 22:05
Yeah, like being attacked and bitten by one.
I don't want to go down the "dogs (particularly German shepherds) are evil" road either, but some of us have good reasons not to trust either the dogs or the assurances of dog owners that the dogs are harmless.
I like horses a lot. But last Sunday in the Smokies, a guy had his horse's butt right next to the AT. I went wide around it. He told me the horse wouldn't kick me, or, if it did, he'd take a stick to it.:rolleyes:
Not good enough.
I completely understand the attacked and being bitten by one.... I was attacked and bitten by a neighbor's dog, have been kicked by a horse, thrown over a fence by a bull.... so I am very sensitive to what has happened to people in the past...
To that end, we exercise extreme control over our dogs. Our dogs only respond to our voices in a language other than English... When we see people coming down the greenway here in White House, we get to the extreme opposite side, and down our dogs.... We do NOT allow people to pet our animals when they are out....
Randy
I completely understand the attacked and being bitten by one.... I was attacked and bitten by a neighbor's dog, have been kicked by a horse, thrown over a fence by a bull.... so I am very sensitive to what has happened to people in the past...
To that end, we exercise extreme control over our dogs. Our dogs only respond to our voices in a language other than English... When we see people coming down the greenway here in White House, we get to the extreme opposite side, and down our dogs.... We do NOT allow people to pet our animals when they are out....
Randy
You do the right thing then...but you're in a minority of owners.
HikerRanky
09-02-2008, 22:11
It's worse than that I'm afraid .... next time you watch the news ask yourself what is the product they are actually selling?
They Sell FEAR .... and Americans line up by the millions to buy.
You are exactly right..... I can say that, with 99.9999% certainty, that the daypart ratings for the Hurricane Gustav weather coverage on TV over the weekend was higher than the average TV Ratings during the week...
We have become obssesed with bad news....
Randy
Was on the MST trail Sat. Dude had a rottweiller, kept it between himself and my 5 year old as we passed...What the hec was the dude scared of?
HikerRanky
09-02-2008, 22:18
You do the right thing then...but you're in a minority of owners.
I agree Wilson.... I know that we are in the minority..... Most people feel that because we live out in the "country", that they can let their dogs run loose, make more puppies, and get mad when we get after them for not having their dogs under control....
But to get back on the subject thread, I still believe that people are safer on the trail than off the trail.... the author of the article quoted simply lives inside his box, and doesn't want to get outside of it because he has been programmed by the very media that he works in that it's NOT safe out there.
Randy
HikerRanky
09-02-2008, 22:22
Was on the MST trail Sat. Dude had a rottweiller, kept it between himself and my 5 year old as we passed...What the hec was the dude scared of?
Maybe he wasn't scared of anything, just letting his dog have a unique experience....
Our dogs love to track.... We take them out into the area behind our house, hide a toy, and then let them try and find it.... The area is covered with trees, tall grass, leaves.... It's not because we are scared, we are just good parents to them....
Randy
Women should not hitch-hike alone... Would anyone second that?
Panzer
Women should not hitch-hike alone... Would anyone second that?
PanzerJust as a general rule hitch-hiking alone is not a safe practice, IMO.
Pokey2006
09-03-2008, 00:26
This kind of "women shouldn't do things alone" attitude is exactly what men in other cultures use to justify keeping women out of sight and under lock and key, with men making all of their decisions for them. Supposedly for our own good or for our own protection...hogwash!
Is there a risk for women hiking alone? Absolutely. But gals just need to be armed with the tools they need to keep themselves safe: common sense, a little intuition and some pepperspray. And a belief in hey, what will be will be...
Advising women not to go hiking alone? The guy's living in the dark ages.
fancyfeet
09-03-2008, 00:54
BTW, I notice this sadly misleading editorial doesn't mention the men who have been murdered on the AT. In at least 3 cases of women murdered on/near the AT, they weren't alone, 2 couples and 1 pair of women are among the victims. In late 2002, I was diverted from the trail by a crime scene. Only that wasn't trail-related (it was just off the trail head) and the victim was a man.
I travel alone, drive cross-country alone and hike alone. I know that nothing is completely safe, but what should we women do? Stay home with the doors locked until we have an able-bodied to man to look after us? How sexist. Not old-fashioned, sexist. He says he "wouldn't let" his 34-y.o. daughter hike alone. Sorry, but legally, he can't prevent her from doing so if she chooses.
There are risks everywhere, but I'd rather say I lived life to the fullest than lived life to the utmost degree of caution.
i guess i shouldn't work, i should stay home and pop out little babies....
i'm so sick of this society of fear, fdr (i think) said 'the only thing to fear is fear itself' we need to get back to that thinking, we shouldn't be soo afraid, we should be respectful but not afraid
take-a-knee
09-03-2008, 08:53
i guess i shouldn't work, i should stay home and pop out little babies....
i'm so sick of this society of fear, fdr (i think) said 'the only thing to fear is fear itself' we need to get back to that thinking, we shouldn't be soo afraid, we should be respectful but not afraid
No, you should get a Khar PM9 9mm and learn how to use it, then you can walk into to valley of the shadow or wherever else you'd care to tread. Fear is a biochemical response (fight or flight response), courage is the conquest of fear, not the absence of it. The modern technique of the pistol factors in the human fear response and allows you to overcome it, with enough training. In psychology it is called the conditioned response. Under a high enough stress level your body becomes incapable of rational thought, you will only perform those tasks that you have conditioned your brain/body to be able to do without thought.
Blue Jay
09-03-2008, 08:54
Women should not hitch-hike alone... Would anyone second that?
Panzer
Sorry, but clearly no. Why, women just cannot drive by another woman hitch hiking, so they can give them the exact same lecture you just did. All a woman has to do to be safe is do not accept rides from men, which is not a problem because a woman will be by shortly. After years of hitch hicking and speaking to women who hitch, I strongly believe it's actually safer for women because they get picked up by women and men get picked up by men.
leeki pole
09-03-2008, 09:22
She doesn't neglect to keep them leashed and (not "or") muzzled 100% of the time she's on public land, just as a CCW-license-holder is expected to keep his pistol holstered and/or concealed, rather than waving it around and pointing it at random passersby. Her fears (valid or not) don't entitle her to make other innocent people feel threatened.
Muzzled and leashed. Waving a pistol around. Sounds like Rambo 7. Maybe the muzzle and leash could find a higher and better purpose than on her dogs. Just sayin'.
minnesotasmith
09-03-2008, 09:24
It's not because we are scared, we are just good parents to them....
Randy
Owners, HR, owners. You can only be parents to human children. Dogs are animals, and thus property, however emotional attachments may lead an owner astray from reality.
Tipi Walter
09-03-2008, 09:28
No, you should get a Khar PM9 9mm and learn how to use it, then you can walk into to valley of the shadow or wherever else you'd care to tread. Fear is a biochemical response (fight or flight response), courage is the conquest of fear, not the absence of it. The modern technique of the pistol factors in the human fear response and allows you to overcome it, with enough training. In psychology it is called the conditioned response. Under a high enough stress level your body becomes incapable of rational thought, you will only perform those tasks that you have conditioned your brain/body to be able to do without thought.
There are a couple of ways of looking at this. Gandhi has a very interesting quote: "When there is a choice between cowardice and violence, I advise violence. (But) I cultivate the quiet courage of dying without killing. But to him who has not this courage I advise that of killing and being killed rather than of shamefully fleeing from danger."
So, when we defend ourselves(with whatever weapons we think we need), we have to decide what exactly it is we're defending. The common "fight or flight" human takes a kick and gives back a couple more and maybe a bullet, but is this the only alternative? The Bible says to forgive our enemies and turn the other cheek. The natural man on the other hand likes to snarl with exposed fang and fight to the death . . . or run like heck.
All I'm saying is that there might be another way. The way of the buddhist and the monk, the way where a person finds courage by not defending himself, and knowing like the Amish that forgiveness is the key. Otherwise, the tit for tat blood revenge so common in the world today will never end.
In a violent situation the macho normal reactionary Tipi Walter would try to stand up, fight and face his fears. But the spiritual self would say to his attacker, "Do what you will, my death means nothing to me, I only pray for your wholeness and recovery."
superman
09-03-2008, 09:39
There are a couple of ways of looking at this. Gandhi has a very interesting quote: "When there is a choice between cowardice and violence, I advise violence. (But) I cultivate the quiet courage of dying without killing. But to him who has not this courage I advise that of killing and being killed rather than of shamefully fleeing from danger."
So, when we defend ourselves(with whatever weapons we think we need), we have to decide what exactly it is we're defending. The common "fight or flight" human takes a kick and gives back a couple more and maybe a bullet, but is this the only alternative? The Bible says to forgive our enemies and turn the other cheek. The natural man on the other hand likes to snarl with exposed fang and fight to the death . . . or run like heck.
All I'm saying is that there might be another way. The way of the buddhist and the monk, the way where a person finds courage by not defending himself, and knowing like the Amish that forgiveness is the key. Otherwise, the tit for tat blood revenge so common in the world today will never end.
In a violent situation the macho normal reactionary Tipi Walter would try to stand up, fight and face his fears. But the spiritual self would say to his attacker, "Do what you will, my death means nothing to me, I only pray for your wholeness and recovery."
Nice but I'll take the rush of out living my enemies.
leeki pole
09-03-2008, 09:44
Owners, HR, owners. You can only be parents to human children. Dogs are animals, and thus property, however emotional attachments may lead an owner astray from reality.
How wrong this statement is. I guess you just don't get it.
Tipi Walter
09-03-2008, 09:55
Nice but I'll take the rush of out living my enemies.
These thoughts remind me of the old Lakota Oglala and Hunkpapa Indian warriors who had a rich and ritualized form of warfare, much of it dream inspired and personal. One story is about Sitting Bull going into battle and right in the middle of it sitting on the ground with his pipe and doing a pipe prayer ceremony as the bullets flew.
Another is how the old geezors in the tribe would dress up in their finest regalia and buckskin and go out with the young warriors to do battle and hopefully get killed with honor instead of withering away in some cold lodge.
And then there's the story of two Cheyenne warriors who killed a white man over a cow and so the Army arrested them and put them in the fort to be hung. The Indian elders pleaded with the Army to let the two die in a good way and so they agreed and on the appointed day the whole group of Army soldiers lined up outside the fort. The two Indians were given horses and they rode screaming and shouting trying to count coup on the soldiers when they were both quickly shot and killed.
HikerRanky
09-03-2008, 09:57
Owners, HR, owners. You can only be parents to human children. Dogs are animals, and thus property, however emotional attachments may lead an owner astray from reality.
Definition of parent, courtesy of the Random House Unabridged Dictionary:
1) a father or a mother.
2) an ancestor, precursor, or progenitor.
3) a source, origin, or cause.
4) a protector or guardian.
Definition of parent, courtesy of the Random House Unabridged Dictionary:
1) a father or a mother.
2) an ancestor, precursor, or progenitor.
3) a source, origin, or cause.
4) a protector or guardian.
He is blinded by his fear of dogs. He was traumatized by a wiener dog when he was young. :eek: Me, I was bitten by a German Shepard. but somehow I've managed not to become cynophobic.
Rain Man
09-03-2008, 10:41
i guess i shouldn't work, i should stay home and pop out little babies....
It does seem there are always going to be folks who look down on folks not like them, not quite up to snuff. Women aren't stable enough to have the right to vote or own property. Blacks shouldn't be allowed to vote or marry whites or serve on juries. Gays shouldn't be allowed to do much of anything. Spanish-speakers shouldn't be allowed in the land of the free. And let's not even talk about one religion looking down on another.
And, apparently, among their many frailties, women should not hike alone, per the title of this thread. What would we do without those good folks knowing what's best for everyone else and willing to belittle and protect all us lesser creatures from ourselves?
Rain:sunMan
.
minnesotasmith
09-03-2008, 11:20
Definition of parent, courtesy of the Random House Unabridged Dictionary:
4) a protector or guardian.
You're claiming your DOG is your parent??
Grow up, and take responsibility for your own life. It's kind of scary at first, this adulthood thing, but really great once you're used to it (presuming you have what it takes to live that way; not everyone does...).
minnesotasmith
09-03-2008, 11:24
i guess i shouldn't work, i should stay home and pop out little babies....
Those who don't replace themselves, will be supplanted by those who do. Check out current basic macrodemographics' trends sometime.
take-a-knee
09-03-2008, 11:36
It does seem there are always going to be folks who look down on folks not like them, not quite up to snuff. Women aren't stable enough to have the right to vote or own property. Blacks shouldn't be allowed to vote or marry whites or serve on juries. Gays shouldn't be allowed to do much of anything. Spanish-speakers shouldn't be allowed in the land of the free. And let's not even talk about one religion looking down on another.
And, apparently, among their many frailties, women should not hike alone, per the title of this thread. What would we do without those good folks knowing what's best for everyone else and willing to belittle and protect all us lesser creatures from ourselves?
Rain:sunMan
.
Not one person brought up minorities, gays, xenophobes etc until you rode your little hobby horse out of the barn. Sorry but I ain't taking the bait. You really need some couseling, or maybe you just need to come in out of the rain, dry off, and get a life.
Let's focus on the original post and get back on topic folks. Too much off topic info here. Thanks for your help.
leeki pole
09-03-2008, 11:43
Those who don't replace themselves, will be supplanted by those who do. Check out current basic macrodemographics trends sometime.
Gosh, I thought 17 letter words were banned in these forums. My bad.
By the way, it should be singular, and not plural. Grammar, you know.
superman
09-03-2008, 11:51
These thoughts remind me of the old Lakota Oglala and Hunkpapa Indian warriors who had a rich and ritualized form of warfare, much of it dream inspired and personal. One story is about Sitting Bull going into battle and right in the middle of it sitting on the ground with his pipe and doing a pipe prayer ceremony as the bullets flew.
Another is how the old geezors in the tribe would dress up in their finest regalia and buckskin and go out with the young warriors to do battle and hopefully get killed with honor instead of withering away in some cold lodge.
And then there's the story of two Cheyenne warriors who killed a white man over a cow and so the Army arrested them and put them in the fort to be hung. The Indian elders pleaded with the Army to let the two die in a good way and so they agreed and on the appointed day the whole group of Army soldiers lined up outside the fort. The two Indians were given horses and they rode screaming and shouting trying to count coup on the soldiers when they were both quickly shot and killed.
and the moral of the story is beef is bad for you?:)
Pokey2006
09-03-2008, 12:00
No, the moral of the story is: cows shouldn't hike alone.
The Old Fhart
09-03-2008, 12:07
Pokey2006-"No, the moral of the story is: cows shouldn't hike alone."Some posters would say that's no bull!;)
Good point.
That dogs should be muzzled? What's good for the goose... MS should be muzzled.
Jason of the Woods
09-03-2008, 12:20
We had a group come up as we were eating lunch at Cold Spring Shelter with a pitbull just running free. The dog came at me and I proceded to beat it with my hiking pole until it yelped and ran away. The way that I see it is if you want to let your mean dog run free on a public trail then you should expect this to happen.:D
Alligator
09-03-2008, 12:24
Let's focus on the original post and get back on topic folks. Too much off topic info here. Thanks for your help.That's a great suggestion Ed, I'll second that.
le loupe
09-03-2008, 13:36
[quote=Tipi Walter;692002]The Bible says to forgive our enemies and turn the other cheek. The natural man on the other hand likes to snarl with exposed fang and fight to the death . . . or run like heck.quote]
There is no way "turn the other cheek" should be construed to mean that when bodily harm is threatened or inflicted that a "strong" person should or would allow that to happen.
As was noted before - you have to know what it is you are going to fight for. There is a big difference between using physical force to protect your pack or protect your life.
I think physical force, even deadly force, is appropriate to protect innocent body & life. The bible does not contradict this...
superman
09-03-2008, 14:07
I've hiked for awhile with an annoying woman. It deamonstrated that some women should hike alone.:)
take-a-knee
09-03-2008, 14:31
I've hiked for awhile with an annoying woman. It deamonstrated that some women should hike alone.:)
Now that is some funny stuff.
Pedaling Fool
09-03-2008, 19:22
Last time I logged on everyone was on the same "page" on this issue. Now it’s turned into the typical WB slugfest. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside; kind of like the feeling I have after returning home from a very, very long trip away from my beloved family – albeit a demented family, but it’s my family.:sun
superman
09-03-2008, 19:38
Last time I logged on everyone was on the same "page" on this issue. Now it’s turned into the typical WB slugfest. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside; kind of like the feeling I have after returning home from a very, very long trip away from my beloved family – albeit a demented family, but it’s my family.:sun
If your referring to the Whiteblaze ADD condition I resemble that.
On the other hand women can, should and do hike alone. My guess is that women who hike with self confidence and an "in case of plan" do better. It beats having a woman Klingon because they hike with the "fear ofs.".
wilconow
09-03-2008, 19:50
Let's focus on the original post and get back on topic folks. Too much off topic info here. Thanks for your help.
That's a great suggestion Ed, I'll second that.
Yeah, or don't complain when it's locked
It would be great to read more responses from WOMEN since the article was about their safety (or lack thereof) rather than guys chiming in on what they think is safe or not for women.
I'm pretty sure that if women were talking among themselves about safety on the trail without worrying about being ridiculed by guys or told that their concerns are groundless, I bet they'd voice more concerns than what is reflected in this thread.
Women should not hitch-hike alone... Would anyone second that?
Panzer
Sorry, but clearly no. Why, women just cannot drive by another woman hitch hiking, so they can give them the exact same lecture you just did. All a woman has to do to be safe is do not accept rides from men, which is not a problem because a woman will be by shortly. After years of hitch hicking and speaking to women who hitch, I strongly believe it's actually safer for women because they get picked up by women and men get picked up by men.
So if a male motorist stops to give a female hitch-hiker a ride she should decline a ride from a man just because he's a man even if there does not seem to be anything suspicious about him. Just because he's a man. That doesn't seem right. If she' not going to accept a ride just because your a man, she shouldn't be hitch-hiking in the first place. Still I say a woman shouldn't hitch-hike by them self anyway.
Panzer
Hammock Hanger
09-03-2008, 22:29
Years ago I was told never travel ALONE, never be out after DARK, do not be in remote places. I was raped, as was my girlfriend as we were NOT ALONE, it was during DAYLIGHT hours and it was in a very very BUSY area. Sometimes these terrible things happen. Even when you think you are doing all the right things.
I hike alone, I have hitched alone (probably the scariest part of all my hikes). I do have some rules that I have set up for myself. I don't get into large vans with no windows or darkened windows, I don't get into a car that has two men.
One time 2 guys pulled over, I was torn... I explained that I had made up certain rules or guidelines for myself as a solo woman hiker and that I was going to decline the ride but thanked them for there thoughtfulness to stop and hoped that they would bestow that courtesy on another hiker. They said they understood and were very pleasant about it.
Another time 2 guys in a pick-up stopped and I did get in the back of the pick-up. They were pig farmers and the truck was pretty bad, but they were nice and made room for me.
It is definitely a gamble... I say a pray, use my intuition and hold my breath. I never get too trusting.
I have twice moved on from a camping spot when I got a bad vibe... As a woman it is a bit scarier but bad things can happen on or off the trail. I choose to live my life and pray for the best.
Pokey2006
09-03-2008, 23:27
HH, thanks for sharing a bit of your story. It's every woman's worst nightmare. But, what's actually worse is letting that fear keep you from doing what you love. In our case, hiking alone.
You guys want us gals to chime in on the subject? Well, maybe we don't because we have in the past been ridiculed or beat up in these forums for talking openly about our fears, etc. I particularly recall having to slug it out when trying to say that you guys shouldn't ask us things like where we're headed for the night. So I'm not surprised that many female hikers would just not want to bother putting in their two cents.
Girls need to take extra precautions when hiking alone. Precautions men don't even have to think about. We can't tell people where we're planning to camp for the night, for example. Do men even consider that an issue? Of course not. But women hiking alone do. Or they should.
On the other hand, I was extremely offended by that guy's notion that I essentially need a bodyguard in order to go out into the woods by myself. Chances are I'd be the one rescuing the man, not the other way around. The idea of needing a chaperone is just so belittling, and so backwards.
I, too, would like to see other women chime in on this.
cowboy nichols
09-03-2008, 23:54
I've made this statement before on other threads but I think it bears repeating, I have hike mostly always solo for about 60 years . I use common sense and follow some basic rules. I don't ever say where I'm headed or where I plan to camp. Never camp near a highway, I usually stealt camp. I've always hiked with a dog well trained. I walk off trail to resuply,I'm hiking , why would I want to hitch a ride. I rarely hike well used trails.The A T was and is the exception. I've always tried not to be seen out in the woods not because I'm afraid but it was a game I played as a kid and it is still a challenge to see if I can remain unseen. I've never been afraid but I always stay allert to what is going on around me.
How would Meredith have weighted in on this?
No, you should get a Khar PM9 9mm and learn how to use it, then you can walk into to valley of the shadow or wherever else you'd care to tread. Fear is a biochemical response (fight or flight response), courage is the conquest of fear, not the absence of it. The modern technique of the pistol factors in the human fear response and allows you to overcome it, with enough training. In psychology it is called the conditioned response. Under a high enough stress level your body becomes incapable of rational thought, you will only perform those tasks that you have conditioned your brain/body to be able to do without thought.
my first response to this H____ bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep NO!
my second response, to me that is just the same as saying women shouldn't hike alone, what, do i really need a gun to hike alone, really??? i think i'll hike w/ my brain instead. thanks but no thanks
And when u understand the difference btn fear and respect, u respond differently, like i said its our society that has confused the two...
and in keeping with politeness I will stop typing now
Let's review the facts again:
1) Most of the murders on the AT were of pairs of people, including mixed male/female pairs.
2) GMH probably murdered the Bryants, who were hiking as a male/female mixed pair.
3) The lunatic in Virginia who murdered the couple on the AT recently shot a pair of men.
4) The rape incident near 19E was perpetrated by a group of men on a group of young women, i.e., they were not hiking or camping alone.
5) The movie sex crime that worries new and non-hikers is from Deliverance, which was male on male.
My conclusion is that gender does not provide safety to one sex and victimhood to the other. (As a parent of one girl and two boys, I was always conscious that children of BOTH genders are vulnerable to sexual predators, and I should teach them not to take candy from strangers, etc.)
The fact that most perpetrators are male does not mean all males are evil and all females are good.
In fact, being the victim of a violent criminal is something like being struck by lightning--it is relatively rare, but devastating when it happens. You can choose to stay indoors all the time in hopes that it won't find you there. You can wear a lightning rod/gun all the time. as T-A-K advocates. You can have a plan for minimizing risk while still pursuing your favorite activities, as Hammock Hanger does.
I'm in the HH camp myself.
sheepdog
09-04-2008, 08:48
Well said Marta and Hammock Hanger.
I think that men shouldn't hike alone. :P
Hammock Hanger
09-04-2008, 10:39
I think that men shouldn't hike alone. :P
In most backpacking courses they will tell you not to hike alone, be it male or female. However, there are many of us that just really love the solo hike. Group hikes are fun but there is something you get from a solo hike that is truly unique.
As I stated in a FTA article the solo hiker needs to be much more aware, always have a plan B, have maps so you know where you are and where there is alternatives if needed. You are on your own out there and you need to know how to handle accidents and things that go off course. Have some one back home who has an itinerary and a game plan of when to start to worry.
In most backpacking courses they will tell you not to hike alone, be it male or female. However, there are many of us that just really love the solo hike. Group hikes are fun but there is something you get from a solo hike that is truly unique.
As I stated in a FTA article the solo hiker needs to be much more aware, always have a plan B, have maps so you know where you are and where there is alternatives if needed. You are on your own out there and you need to know how to handle accidents and things that go off course. Have some one back home who has an itinerary and a game plan of when to start to worry.
I agree... I usually hike solo myself, and there's always an extra level of prep that goes into these trips, and an extra level of awareness during the hikes. Male, female, neutered... everyone should take extra care when hiking solo, but no one should be excluded from doing so.
MyName1sMud
09-04-2008, 11:54
people will always be crazy.
no way to stop it!
Blue Jay
09-04-2008, 17:04
Years ago I was told never travel ALONE, never be out after DARK, do not be in remote places. I was raped, as was my girlfriend as we were NOT ALONE, it was during DAYLIGHT hours and it was in a very very BUSY area. Sometimes these terrible things happen. Even when you think you are doing all the right things.
I hike alone, I have hitched alone (probably the scariest part of all my hikes). I do have some rules that I have set up for myself. I don't get into large vans with no windows or darkened windows, I don't get into a car that has two men.
One time 2 guys pulled over, I was torn... I explained that I had made up certain rules or guidelines for myself as a solo woman hiker and that I was going to decline the ride but thanked them for there thoughtfulness to stop and hoped that they would bestow that courtesy on another hiker. They said they understood and were very pleasant about it.
Another time 2 guys in a pick-up stopped and I did get in the back of the pick-up. They were pig farmers and the truck was pretty bad, but they were nice and made room for me.
It is definitely a gamble... I say a pray, use my intuition and hold my breath. I never get too trusting.
I have twice moved on from a camping spot when I got a bad vibe... As a woman it is a bit scarier but bad things can happen on or off the trail. I choose to live my life and pray for the best.
Great post HH. This is exactly why you are one of the most respected hikers on the AT.
this is hilarious. i fell out of my chair reading this stuff. most of the comments just left me with my mouth hangin down to the floor, tho.
some people really should interact with normal society more so that they would have a better grip on reality. but that's just coming from a blue-blazing, solo-hitchin, solo-hiking, non-leashed dog/child-owning country girl (and i don't even take my walther or my nra card with me hiking - i'm just asking to be attacked).
i'm gonna go strip and chain myself back to the stove now.
Years ago I was told never travel ALONE, never be out after DARK, do not be in remote places. I was raped, as was my girlfriend as we were NOT ALONE, it was during DAYLIGHT hours and it was in a very very BUSY area. Sometimes these terrible things happen. Even when you think you are doing all the right things.
I hike alone, I have hitched alone (probably the scariest part of all my hikes). I do have some rules that I have set up for myself. I don't get into large vans with no windows or darkened windows, I don't get into a car that has two men.
One time 2 guys pulled over, I was torn... I explained that I had made up certain rules or guidelines for myself as a solo woman hiker and that I was going to decline the ride but thanked them for there thoughtfulness to stop and hoped that they would bestow that courtesy on another hiker. They said they understood and were very pleasant about it.
Another time 2 guys in a pick-up stopped and I did get in the back of the pick-up. They were pig farmers and the truck was pretty bad, but they were nice and made room for me.
It is definitely a gamble... I say a pray, use my intuition and hold my breath. I never get too trusting.
I have twice moved on from a camping spot when I got a bad vibe... As a woman it is a bit scarier but bad things can happen on or off the trail. I choose to live my life and pray for the best.
i cannot imagine. my heart goes out to you both.
bad things can happen anywhere and at any time of day. i've had several occasions to wish i was not in the situation where i found myself. they were usually not where i expected them to be.
i am a firm believer in being aware of ones surroundings and making rational, well-thought out decisions, but i refuse to be one of those people that live in fear. i was not given a spirit of fear.
as a matter of fact, i was given a great spirit of adventure. however, i was also given a good dose of bitchiness and quite frankly some of the boneheaded comments on this thread have irritated me to no end.
Hammock Hanger
09-04-2008, 18:29
i cannot imagine. my heart goes out to you both.
bad things can happen anywhere and at any time of day. i've had several occasions to wish i was not in the situation where i found myself. they were usually not where i expected them to be.
i am a firm believer in being aware of ones surroundings and making rational, well-thought out decisions, but i refuse to be one of those people that live in fear. i was not given a spirit of fear.
as a matter of fact, i was given a great spirit of adventure. however, i was also given a good dose of bitchiness and quite frankly some of the boneheaded comments on this thread have irritated me to no end.
I lost some of my B-ness as I aged, guess you can say I mellowed... :sun
However, in my younger days... Oh!!
I lost some of my B-ness as I aged, guess you can say I mellowed... :sun
However, in my younger days... Oh!!
Nah, surely it wasn't your fault. Everyone else just wouldn't cooperate!:D
Blissful
09-04-2008, 19:04
I've hiked for awhile with an annoying woman. It deamonstrated that some women should hike alone.:)
...Esp one with PMS - Ask my hubby about our hike through Grayson Highlands last year.... :eek:
I lost some of my B-ness as I aged, guess you can say I mellowed... :sun
However, in my younger days... Oh!!
the 30-something's are doing wonders...:eek:
Hammock Hanger
09-04-2008, 19:25
the 30-something's are doing wonders...:eek:
My daughters are all in their 30's, where i may have mellowed with age, they are just hittin' their prime. WOW!!! :D
wilconow
09-05-2008, 15:46
Oh well, it was an interesting discussion while it remained on-topic. Locked