Difficulty on Descents... Scale back?

[WetBottom]

Hi, I'm new here. I hope I can explain my situation without being too wordy- I'd really appreciate advice from some more seasoned hikers.

My boyfriend and I have been hiking our local woods for the past few years. Recently (the past year) I've gotten stars in my eyes for bigger and longer hikes. Really- I dream of doing the AT... but currently can't even afford enough equipment to make one overnight hike.

So, we've been doing more challenging day hikes. During this August we hiked several small summits in Western, MA, and summited Mt. Greylock. Now, I believe we got to thinkin' we was a little too big for our britches. We did hike to the HIGHEST peak in MA (I say this with a bit of humor) afterall.

Now I am a SLOW hiker, but I'm not ashamed. I'm not the smallest gal, but I'm dripping with enthusiasm and I always perservere.

So, we went camping in the White Mountains for the weekend. So, believing we were fancy-schmancy hikers we thought we should summit one.

We hiked up Beaver Brook trail to the summit of Moosilauke. The hike up was tough- but I just slowly huffed and puffed my way up. Since we were so slow by the time we summited the fog had cleared and the view was spectacular.

My problem? The descents. I find it much more difficult than going up. I constantly feel like I'm going to fall, or roll my ankle. I wore ankle braces on both ankles for support- which helped- I DIDN'T roll my ankle. But I just feel so nervous the whole descent down, that I can't enjoy my hike the way I do on the way up!

So, more experienced hikers- should I scale back? Take up ankle exercises (got any?)? Pick easier routes up the mountain? Am I doing something wrong?

Sorry to be so wordy!

[buff_jeff]

Trekking poles should help. You'll also gain confidence the more you do.

[KG4FAM]

The descents are harder for a lot of folks and if you came down by beaver brook then you did a pretty tough downhill. The first time I climbed Katahdin I went up it in 4 hours and down it in 5 so sometimes it takes longer.

[Tipi Walter]

Wait till you do it with a 50 pound pack on your back. We have a trail here in my neck of the woods and it falls(or climbs)about 3000 feet in short increments. Some sections are rugged and dangerously steep, and so I've been up it many times but down it only three. The simple secret is to go slow. Just go slow.

[Tipi Walter]

And my rule of thumb is:

Steep ups require endurance, while steep downs require concentration. Two different things.

[WetBottom]

I do have hiking poles. I often didn't use them on the descent, and used my hands instead. In fact... I crab-walked some boulders on my bottom.


We took Beaver Brook up and down. Going up I was slow- but as hikers past us I didn't think they were doing anything different than I was, they were just faster.

On the descent on the other hand- I watched hikers seem to effortlessly skip from boulder to boulder hopping down the mountain. I only saw one other person that took slow careful steps like me. Maybe it is just my confidence?

[Hammock Hanger]

As someone else said, trekking poles help. However, going down can be more dangerous and we tend to be nervous. When I first start out I pick and choose my steps much more then after being out there for awhile. Soon you get in to a rhythm and you feel things with your feet and are not as nervous.

Good luck.

[buff_jeff]

hmmm... does it physically hurt or is it more of a mental issue? I know I had much more trouble on the downhill at the beginning of my hike this summer partly because it put the hurt-piece on my knees, but also because I was a little scared of falling and prematurely ending my hike. The mental component wore away over time and my legs gradually adjusted.

[buff_jeff]

I also came in to my hike with really bad shin splints that developed from running with a 50 lb. ruck at the beginning of the year and consistently running on blacktop after that, and the hike seemed to ameliorate those over time, so I think some things do get stronger rather than weaker during a long distance hike.

[WetBottom]

Well, I certainly can't say my legs DIDN'T hurt on the descent, but I wasn't in horrible pain. My leg muscles certainly felt fatigued.

I'm fairly certain my problems lie in a combination of lack of trail fitness, lack of confidence, and lack of skill.... wow, I'm currently lacking a lot! :)

I joked several times on our trip that in MA we were fancy-hikers, but in NH were annoying tourists in the way of the real hikers.

[MOWGLI]

We took Beaver Brook up and down. Going up I was slow- but as hikers past us I didn't think they were doing anything different than I was, they were just faster.



Take heart. That's about the toughest downhill on the entire trail.

[WetBottom]

MOWGLI- I'm fairly certain you're just saying that to make me feel better, but thanks. It helped! :)

[buff_jeff]

Well, I certainly can't say my legs DIDN'T hurt on the descent, but I wasn't in horrible pain. My leg muscles certainly felt fatigued.

I'm fairly certain my problems lie in a combination of lack of trail fitness, lack of confidence, and lack of skill.... wow, I'm currently lacking a lot! :)

I joked several times on our trip that in MA we were fancy-hikers, but in NH were annoying tourists in the way of the real hikers.

Honestly, it sounds like a mental thing. I think a lot of people have a lot of trepidation going in to a long distance hike, naturally. I saw plenty of people who SHOULDN'T have made it as far as they did, and plenty who SHOULD HAVE made it further but quit. It's a mental game, it really is. I think you just need to gain more trail experience. It takes most people a little while to adjust to life on the trail, whether for a day, week, or months.

There isn't much difference between an 'expert' hiker and a 'beginner." I still don't know what I'm doing. All I know is that I wake up everyday and walk in one direction!:D

[Tipi Walter]

I also came in to my hike with really bad shin splints that developed from running with a 50 lb. ruck at the beginning of the year and consistently running on blacktop after that, and the hike seemed to ameliorate those over time, so I think some things do get stronger rather than weaker during a long distance hike.

More bone mass over time, etc. I saw a fotog of a human femur from a couch potato and one from a competitive swimmer, and the latter was noticeably larger in diameter. Similar body types and weights, etc. Long term backpacking will strengthen bones and muscles, tendons, etc. Anything done repeatedly over a long period of time will transform a person's body to form around that activity.

Professional clarinetists, for instance, will form a callus cushion on their right thumbs and a strong callus on their inner lower lip. It's like the body grows new parts to help in some activity. Backpacking is no different, just in different parts.

Beyond this, anyone who hikes or backpacks will fall. Stumble, slip, slide, and bounce off their butts. Or twist an ankle going downhill and take out a bush. It's all part of backpacking, even more so because of the added weight. Eventually you learn to anticipate each skid and do a quick arrest, but you'll still fall now and again.

[rootball]

You are normal. Just relax and the more you do the better it will feel. Concentrate and take your time. You gotta keep your head and your focus - lack of either is how accidents happen. I am glad to hear that you were challenged, thats hot.

[WetBottom]

Thanks everyone. It's good to hear this is at least marginally normal.

It's hard to be new at a sport I think... Never quite sure if you're catching on as fast as you should be.

I horseback ride, I'm quite experienced. My horse is a nervous animal who is prone to hysterics, but I know if I get nervous it only compounds her fear... so I don't. I've had several people tell me they wouldn't be brave enough to ride out my horses hysterics, but I like to explain to them that after a while you have no choice. You either toughen up and be brave, or you don't ride this horse. And I'd rather die young doing what I love, than live in bubble-wrap to the ripe old age of 90.

My point- I'm not used to being the nervous new-gal at an activity... I thought maybe I was doing something wrong.

[buff_jeff]

Nope. You're fine. I camped in a pile of rocks my very first night out. I'm pretty much the epitome of 'yahoo.' :banana

[Gray Blazer]

I like to make good time while I'm hiking (it's all relative) and I realize that if I twist my ankle or worse on a rocky downhill ascent, I won't be making any time. So what I'm trying to say is I am slow and careful on the rocky ascents. I try to make up time on the level smooth parts.

Remember, if someone zooms by you jumping and hopping from rock to rock, you may see them later hobbled by the side of the trail.

[Hammock Hanger]

Thanks everyone. It's good to hear this is at least marginally normal.

It's hard to be new at a sport I think... Never quite sure if you're catching on as fast as you should be.

I horseback ride, I'm quite experienced. My horse is a nervous animal who is prone to hysterics, but I know if I get nervous it only compounds her fear... so I don't. I've had several people tell me they wouldn't be brave enough to ride out my horses hysterics, but I like to explain to them that after a while you have no choice. You either toughen up and be brave, or you don't ride this horse. And I'd rather die young doing what I love, than live in bubble-wrap to the ripe old age of 90.

My point- I'm not used to being the nervous new-gal at an activity... I thought maybe I was doing something wrong.

I so know how you feel. I've been in the backpacking world for over 30 years. I am comfortable out there and I'm comfortable dishing out advise. Just recently my husband and I got into geocaching. We went to an event where I didn't know a soul, which is unusual for me. I was full of questions and it just felt so weird to be the NEWBIE!!!:)

[Blissful]

I hate downwhills. Give me an uphill anyday! They wreck knees, are treacherous as all get out. I was a nervous wreck thinking I would die - esp in the Whites like at Carter, etc. I know it big time. My son sailed by me down Mt Madison. It took me twice as long. I didn't care. I did it my way, safely, esp to preserve my knees.

But - I would not use ankle brace unless you have a very unstable ankle from an injury. I only use a brace when absolutely necessary - like for an obvious injury that is healing, not as a preventative solution. You end up babying them and they never strengthen fully. If you want to build them up, do ankle exercises that you can find online to strenghten them. They also strengthen as you use them in hiking. Good footwear is a must. And as everyone said - invest in good poles.

[Summit]

I've been using trekking poles less than a year and feel I'm still honing the 'technique' of proper use. Here's one of many sites (google 'trekking pole technique') that offers some tips on how to get more support from your poles. I think that may be your 'saving grace' in this situation. Good luck with it, and don't give up! ;)

http://www.ideal-hiking-equipment.com/using-trekking-poles.html

[skinny minnie]

If you felt like investing some time in cross training... it really helps. Since I started about a year ago I've seen a huge difference. I have weak ankles too. They used to roll a lot more. Of course, just hiking more will help.

I do trail running and yoga. Yoga for balance (I used to be SO wobbly) and for every muscle group possible. Trail running for better trail vision/agility/leg strength/endurance. It sucks at first but give it a few months and it's really worth it if you stick with it and put in some time and effort. Even if you intersperse walking the trail with running it, it will help. Or at the least, just hike more and things will get better. But it's nice to have other options when you can't actually make it out for a longer/more challenging hike. I was really surprised at how if you focus you can move really fast on downhills, even treacherous ones. I never used to do downhills quickly before. Basically the more you do it the more comfortable you feel and the stronger/better you get at it. Both with running and hiking.

Plus when you're in Massachusetts, as you know... you kind of have to make things a little more challenging for yourself if you reach a certain comfort level and you can't seek out difficult mountains in other states on a regular basis. So that's why I started running trails. Because we can't really compete with the Whites in terms of elevation and I needed to do something to prepare for them!

I don't think you are doing anything wrong at all. You're getting out there, which is what you need to do. Working on endurance and stamina will definitely help, but so will just plain old experience. And all of the above just take time and effort.

[Homer&Marje]

Marje has the same problem. Definitely double hiking sticks is the way to go. Always keeping 3 points of contact builds your confidence and helps the joints. Just like I tell her, pay attention to every step instead of fearing every step. You'll enjoy yourself much more.

[littlelaurel59]

A physical therapist once explained the reason we have difficulty with the downhills- it forces our muscles to work in a very different way than normal.

Normally, our muscles shorten when we put them under a physical load. Think of a pull-up: as we lift our bodies, our biceps muscle shortens. Bench press: as we lift the weights, the triceps shortens.

When we walk downhill, something different happens: our leg starts out straight. As our foot touches down, and lowers our weight to the ground, our quads must lengthen while bearing the load. Unless you hike a lot, your muscles are not used to working in that direction.

There are several things that I find help. Several people mentioned hiking poles. Walk as much as possible, especially on hills and steps. Forward and backward lunges (Step forward on you right foot and lower yourself so that you left knee almost touches the ground, then repeat the process stepping forward on your left foot). Step down exercises (Face down a flight of steps. With you right foot on a tread, start down with you left foot slowly, but do not touch. Return the left foot to its original postion, and repeat until your right thigh burns. Then do it for the other leg.
In the gym, squats and leg presses can help if you focus on slowly bending the knees under wieght (rather than on straightening the leg as you lift the weight). It helps me more if I do the exercises on my toes.

The leg pain is not due to doing something wrong. It is just hard- and most of us will say it gets harder with age.

[WetBottom]

That website on how to use the poles is great! I've been using them the past year, and I keep trying out new ways.

I have a tendency to think I've planted my pole well, and then as I go to get down it sinks. I need to be more careful about that, and I need to learn to stride with my poles.

It's just great to hear I'm not the only hiker that's nervous on the descent.

Around here the problem is, there's plenty of steep boulders to climb up and down, but once you've climbed down 100ft, you're on flat ground again. It doesn't come with the same sort of fatigue that climbing a mountain comes with.

My father gets up every morning at 5AM and hikes three miles with his dogs. I wish I could be more of a morning person and hike more frequently like that. You'd also think having an experienced hiker in my family would be useful. My father grew up in Washington state and used to do search and rescue on Mt. Rainier.

I told him my tale about being scared on the descent and all I got was jokes about how I should've brought my climbing rope. :)

[Many Walks]

I think what you are experiencing is normal. Don't worry about how fast or slow you are compared to other hikers. Just continue and your confidence will build. Some sections are so difficult they should be considered rated climbs rather than trail. In those areas it's hand over hand climbing and descending grabbing roots, branches or rocks to get you through. Crab walk and sliding on your butt is acceptable. Hey, go with whatever works. The good thing is you're out there, take it easy and be safe so you can hike another day. And, keep that dream alive for doing a thru hike, it's a trip of a lifetime you'll never regret! My 2 cents.

[knicksin2010]

Other than the fact that trail is one of the toughest downs on the whole AT and the advice about trekking poles, I'd only add that keeping "nose over toes" and trusting the step seems to work for me even in the Whites and Southern Maine. Sometimes going slowly and cautiously worked well and other times it made it worse. A lot of times just running down the rocks worked for me better.

[Spirit Walker]

Don't worry about it. I've been backpacking for 20 years and I still have problems on steep downhills. Actually, as I've gotten older, in some ways it's gotten worse as I've lost flexibility in my knees and ankles. I had a couple of falls years ago that made me cautious, and a couple of sprains that make me not trust my ankles entirely, so I've learned to just be very slow and careful when I need to be. I use a stick for balance and it helps a lot, but I also am willing to slide on my backside when I need to, or to crawl if necessary. Speed isn't essential - getting out is.

[LIhikers]

Just do what you have to, to have a safe and enjoyable hike.
Don't worry about people going faster, or slower than you.

[Homer&Marje]

I think what you are experiencing is normal. Don't worry about how fast or slow you are compared to other hikers. Just continue and your confidence will build. Some sections are so difficult they should be considered rated climbs rather than trail. In those areas it's hand over hand climbing and descending grabbing roots, branches or rocks to get you through. Crab walk and sliding on your butt is acceptable. Hey, go with whatever works. The good thing is you're out there, take it easy and be safe so you can hike another day. And, keep that dream alive for doing a thru hike, it's a trip of a lifetime you'll never regret! My 2 cents.

Marje slid on her butt all the way down South Twin in the whites:D she split the backside of her nylon shorts:D all in all... it was hilarious. And when she explained it to the caretaker at Galehead Hut, it was even funnier:D

But she didn't let that 1000' descent get the best of her and two banged up knees. I get the ol' wobbly legs a lot on some steep descents, it's an odd feeling like losing complete control of a particular muscle that you never knew you had, but now has become so critical to landing you don't know what you ever did without it:rolleyes:

[ki0eh]

I'm very fumbly and not successful with trekking poles, though I realize they are helpful to many.

As an alternative approach I was once taught in a workers' comp avoidance class to pay attention to the belly button (close to center of gravity). Imagine a string tied to your belly button holding you back from going downhill or uphill or on a slippery surface.

They also phrased the "nose over toes" advice as "keep your crown" - look down with your eyes not your head.

This way if you do fall you fall on butt not face (for no or cheaper injuries).

I feel this approach works for me. I've been fortunate so far to conserve my knees and I've been told it's not good for bad knees.

With poles or without, slow and easy seems pretty unanimous advice. (But when I was lighter I used to run downhill too, playing out that invisible string real fast. :) )

[WetBottom]

Thanks for all the support!

Now I'm going to have to decide on what my next hike in the whites should be! I think we could probably fit one or two more in sometime this fall. (I live about a 2 hour drive away, and work 6 days a week. So time is always an issue with me.) We are in no way ready for winter hiking in the Whites, so come winter I'll stay hiking close to home.

I also need to get a feel for how many hours I should be adding to expected hiking times for my slowness.

[littlelaurel59]

[quote=ki0eh;692377] They also phrased the "nose over toes" advice as "keep your crown" - look down with your eyes not your head. quote]

Re: looking down with your eyes: a little over a year ago, age caught up with my eyes, and I got bifocals. The first time I tried to hike in them was NOT a good experience! I now use the old glasses with correction for distance in the lower half. I can see the roots and rocks that way:)

[middle to middle]

You use a different set of muscles in a different way on decent. Practice, once in Vermont I had my wife drive me up the mountain and I just walked down all day. 4x that really toughened me up. And my wife was happy not to do it.

[Barbarosa]

A good downhill technique is to shorten your stride and lead with the ball of your foot (vs. heel). Some people do this naturally others have to work on it (i did and it helped my downhill a lot).

[Tom Murphy]

Practice at Mt. Monadnock

- Close to you.

- Fairly short trails, 5 miles round trip

- Lots of semi steep rock filled descents.

For me it is mostly physical, I got ITBS from trying to keep up with 10 year olds. I use poles and just go slow downhill. As far as I know it isn't a race.

For my 14 yr old niece, it is totally mental. She is afraid she is going to fall and get hurt. I haven't been able to help her with that and poles didn't help her much either. Sorry.