Making your own Smoked Salmon.

[Wise Old Owl]

I didn't know.....
Those expensive prepackaged salmon with just a few ounces in a plastic package were brine soaked for a few hours and then commercially packaged & pressurized at 25-35 psi with 230 - 500 degrees depending how long they want to keep it in the cooker. They are doing something like "pasteurized", trying to avoid Botulism!

I have a "donated" Vertical Stainless Steel Smoker that is electric, I picked up two pounds of Salmon and a bag of Hickory Chips. I lucked out as two pounds filled the smoker, any more would be too much.

While getting set up, cut the fish into workable squares. Soak in 1 cup of salt to 7 cups of warm water, for hour or more. Afterwards pat dry with a towel to loose excess moisture.

Half the bag of chips or a "Pie Plate was put in the bottom, a quart of hot water in the next tray, with the fish on top. The system was plugged in for 10 minutes to bring it up to temp 170 or higher. (Preheat)

The squares of Salmon were done after two hours of smoking, the temp has to be 225 for a minimum of 30 minutes to kill bacteria.

I use a fast Grilling digital thermometer to find how the fish is progressing, the analogs take too long and I loose the heat & smoke.

Overall we had a awesome dinner, the Salmon is fully cooked and safe. The smoking flavor was awesome. The meat was not dry, and what was not eaten was put into vacume sealed freezer bags for later. The packages should last five days if everything is done right.

By the way this was my first attempt.

more Reading! (http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalog/pdf/pnw/pnw238.pdf)

[Homer&Marje]

I just came into possession of a , what I believe is, cast aluminum smoker, it doesnt seem heavy enough to be stainless steel but anyways...

It's not electric, its a charcoal smoker. I was wondering if you had any experience in using one of these for the same process, it's harder to control the heat and I don't know if I want to gamble with fish... I love salmon, and would love it on my hikes with ramen noodles... ooh lunch idea, anyways, I would love to use my smoker for dehydrating all sorts of foods anyone know of good techniques or recipes for that application??

[Fiddleback]

As long as one is breaking down and using, or considering using, an electric smoker (reason for this long time Texan to be refused reentry at the Texas border:rolleyes:) then check out the Old Smokey Electric Smoker available from Old Smokey Products Company, Houston, TX, www.oldsmokey.com (http://www.oldsmokey.com) , (at least it's built in Texas).

It does not use water, it takes only the smallest handful of wood chips, and requires no monitoring while smoking the food ("if you're lookin', you're not cookin' "). I have yet to fail, more accurately, it has yet to fail, to deliver gosh-awful good food...beef, pork, chicken, salmon. And the ribs! Extremely easy, no bother cooking. Mine cost a little over $100 about ten months ago...

I rinse a hunk of room temperature salon, (maybe) sprinkle some Worchestershire sauce on it, add some ground pepper and put it in the smoker. Two to three hours later the salmon is sweetly smoked. The temp guidelines above are certainly safe. But, more specifically, an internal temperature of 140 is sufficient for safe food. I keep the temp inside the smoker between 210 and 220 during the smoking process.

FB

[Wise Old Owl]

The charcoal version of what I have will work as well it just takes more practice & time to hit the numbers.

After watching a few Good Eats with Alton in this case as well as I would, use natural charcoal chunks - Not Bricks! too many chemicals & other stuff.

Using Charcoal can add 6 more hours to the process.

[SunnyWalker]

You can smoke cheese too! And it is good. The "hard" variety. I am envious. Smoked Salmon is so delicious.

[Dances with Mice]

There is a smoker called "The Big Green Egg". Ceramic. Works great, costs a bundle.

I demo'd a $100 version at the last SoRuck. Ceramic smoker. Works great, all the parts came from Home Depot and/or the local hardware or gardening store. It's 8:30 right now, but 10 tonight I could build another from a standing start. Right now mine is smoking a pork shoulder out on the deck.

Smokes fish, turkey, chicken, pork shoulder and loins, uses lump charcoal, temperature controllable, all that. You problably already have most of the parts.

This ain't a BBQ discussion board but if anyone's interested I can give details and show pictures.

[Wise Old Owl]

I just came into possession of a , what I believe is, cast aluminum smoker, it doesnt seem heavy enough to be stainless steel but anyways...

It's not electric, its a charcoal smoker. I was wondering if you had any experience in using one of these for the same process, it's harder to control the heat and I don't know if I want to gamble with fish... I love salmon, and would love it on my hikes with ramen noodles... ooh lunch idea, anyways, I would love to use my smoker for dehydrating all sorts of foods anyone know of good techniques or recipes for that application??

I am sorry I missed this post... Homer you can do fish, the link explains the process you fill the bottom of the smoker for 2-3 pound of charcoal Pre heat and get it going. I would add chips sprinkled in (half gallon) shoud do, Process time can be up to six hours (see chart) And a smoker generally isn't a good dehydrator in my mind, Too Hot.

[Fiddleback]

I am sorry I missed this post... Homer you can do fish, the link explains the process you fill the bottom of the smoker for 2-3 pound of charcoal Pre heat and get it going. I would add chips sprinkled in (half gallon) shoud do, Process time can be up to six hours (see chart) And a smoker generally isn't a good dehydrator in my mind, Too Hot.

Which points out another benefit of electric smokers. Some, or at least mine (see post above), allow you to keep temps low. Although I do all my dehydrating in my oven, the smoker can maintain temps well below the oven's minimum 170° setting on top of the benefits of no charcoal, very few wood chips, no fire watching...:)

The smoked salmon was exceptional.

FB

[Wise Old Owl]

FYI I just wanted to point this out.
With smoking salmon at home....
the temp has to be 225 for a minimum of 30 minutes to kill bacteria. (Botulism)

Click here.
Reading! (http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalog/pdf/pnw/pnw238.pdf)

[Fiddleback]

Actually, to prevent illness from the botulism toxin, the internal temp of the food needs to be 158°-176° (60-70°C), the lower temp promulgated by the Canadians, I think, and the higher temp that pushed by the FDA's Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition. The cooking temp is of little consequence as long as the internal temp is reached for a sufficient time. Specific to the botulism toxin, the FDA says that's 10 minutes.

Most food borne botulism cases in the U.S. are sourced to home canning and/or fermented food and many if not most foods are subject to botulism contamination; meats, fish, vegetables, salads...even apple pie has been a source.:eek: A while back there was a recall of canned chile and dog food...ya' just can't trust anybody...especially those that make both canned chile and dog food!:D Just as importantly, refrigeration plays a crucial role...a couple years ago botulism was traced to carrot juice which, while initially pasturized and safe, was not properly refrigerated.

It's a serious threat but not a common one. Despite all the home canning done, all the Native foods, all the food recalls, the U.S. averages 'just' 20 to 30 cases per year.

FB

[budforester]

OK, I gotta discourage trying to preserve salmon in a home smoker: smoke- cooked is not preserved. The very helpful link from WOO stresses that smoked fish must be kept refrigerated or frozen. However, it may be possible to dehydrate the product down to salmon- gravel (or splinters) for trail- cooking.

[Fiddleback]

Absolutely. Smoking is not preservation and, when it comes to botulism, many if not most of the cases comes from improper/failed preservation, i.e., poor refrigeration. In the home, the dangerous food often is cared for improperly before preparation but many times it's improper handling (usually a shortfall in refrigeration) after preparation that causes the problem.

Unless specific preservation techniques have been applied, e.g., salting, any smoked meat or fish should be consumed immediately or, at the least, treated as any other leftover.

FB

[oldbear]

Hi guys
Without giving y'all a long Food Service Sanitation lecture about this subject I do feel obligated to clear up a couple of untruths that showed in these posts
Food poisoning >Properly called a food borne illness>comes in two big classes:
Food infection i.e E. Coli which can be cooked out and
Food intoxication i.e Botulism which cannot be cooked out ....ever
Food intoxication is the result of toxins being released during the life and death of the organism that wind up inthe food ...and those poisons can't be cooked out
In addition botulism is anaerobic so it thrives in very low/no oxygen environments
In FoodServSan there is a commonly used acronym called F.A.T.-T.O.M. which stands for the six things that life needs in order to exist >or not exist as the case may be
They are
F:Food>especially proteins
A: Atmosphere as in pH too high or too low
T:Time >How long the bugs have to do their stuff
T:Temperature:40 -140 F is called the Danger Zone
O:Oxygen or lack thereof
M:Moisture or absence therof
One of the reasons that High Fructose Corn Syrup shows up in so many food products is not because it's sweet but rather because like all sugars it's hygroscopic which means that it retains water thereby denying it to the little buggeers that need it and help helping to preserve to palatability and shelf-life of the product in question
One more acronym to go and then you can tie it all together and try to make sense of it
It's called HACCP
Which stand for
Hazard
Analysis
(and )
Critical
Control
Point
In practice you flip that over and make this question out of it
At what Point was it Critical for me to properly Analyze the Hazard so that I could Control the outcome ?
Go back to FATTOM ,evaluate your food handling practices and arrive at answer.
Sorry about the lecture .

[Fiddleback]

And yet, as I posted above, the FDA's Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition seems to say differently. "Foodborne botulism (as distinct from wound botulism and infant botulism) is a severe type of food poisoning caused by the ingestion of foods containing the potent neurotoxin formed during growth of the organism. The toxin is heat labile and can be destroyed if heated at 80°C for 10 minutes or longer." (emphasis mine) http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap2.html

So, am I reading this wrong? Is someone who ingests the 'destroyed' toxin still at risk? I think that answer is, "No", as the Center for Disease Control and Prevention states the same as above, "Because the botulism toxin is destroyed by high temperatures, persons who eat home-canned foods should consider boiling the food for 10 minutes before eating it to ensure safety." http://www.cdc.gov/nczved/dfbmd/disease_listing/botulism_gi.html#8

The seeming contradiction between posts, I think, is because of the difference between the spores and the toxin that they produce. The bacteria/spores themselves are very heat resistant and will survive the temps referenced above (pressure cooking/212°+ required). Yet, at the same time, they are harmless. It's not ingestion of the spores that makes one ill...it's the ingestion of the toxin. And that risk is virtually eliminated at the referenced temps (assuming rapid consumption and/or refrigeration at relatively cold temps...)

At least, that's the way I read it.:-?

FB

[budforester]

And yet, as I posted above, the FDA's Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition seems to say differently. "Foodborne botulism (as distinct from wound botulism and infant botulism) is a severe type of food poisoning caused by the ingestion of foods containing the potent neurotoxin formed during growth of the organism. The toxin is heat labile and can be destroyed if heated at 80°C for 10 minutes or longer." (emphasis mine) http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap2.html

So, am I reading this wrong? Is someone who ingests the 'destroyed' toxin still at risk? I think that answer is, "No", as the Center for Disease Control and Prevention states the same as above, "Because the botulism toxin is destroyed by high temperatures, persons who eat home-canned foods should consider boiling the food for 10 minutes before eating it to ensure safety." http://www.cdc.gov/nczved/dfbmd/disease_listing/botulism_gi.html#8

The seeming contradiction between posts, I think, is because of the difference between the spores and the toxin that they produce. The bacteria/spores themselves are very heat resistant and will survive the temps referenced above (pressure cooking/212°+ required). Yet, at the same time, they are harmless. It's not ingestion of the spores that makes one ill...it's the ingestion of the toxin. And that risk is virtually eliminated at the referenced temps (assuming rapid consumption and/or refrigeration at relatively cold temps...)

At least, that's the way I read it.:-?

FB

I concur, heating adds a measure of protection from botulism. However, it should not be viewed as a means of making spoiled/ toxic food safe to eat. BTW, Staph toxin is quite resistant to heating.

Bottom line is that there is not much new in food preservation: it’s best to follow a recipe from a trustworthy source. Be creative with flavors and ingredients, but deviating from proven processes can be risky.

[Wise Old Owl]

OK, I gotta discourage trying to preserve salmon in a home smoker: smoke- cooked is not preserved. The very helpful link from WOO stresses that smoked fish must be kept refrigerated or frozen. However, it may be possible to dehydrate the product down to salmon- gravel (or splinters) for trail- cooking.


Absolutely. Smoking is not preservation and, when it comes to botulism, many if not most of the cases comes from improper/failed preservation, i.e., poor refrigeration. In the home, the dangerous food often is cared for improperly before preparation but many times it's improper handling (usually a shortfall in refrigeration) after preparation that causes the problem.

Unless specific preservation techniques have been applied, e.g., salting, any smoked meat or fish should be consumed immediately or, at the least, treated as any other leftover.

FB

Now we have an interesting argument. If I purchase a turkey breast and smoke it in the smoker it looses some moisture and gets oil's and carbon and a whole new flavor. If I purchase sliced processed sandwich Turkey breast and (pay twice as much) why does it go bad in the refrigerator so far more quickly than what I am doing?

Please remember smoking meats before refrigeration was the standard method to gain a number of days. The invention of Gravy was to cover up rancid meat. George Washington wrote many times how he liked & missed smoked meats &/or barbeque when he was away from home.

Oh the Salmon from the smoker was "cooked" all the way through and lasted a few weeks in the refrigerator, 1 piece is vacume sealed and still in the freezer, (will be eaten soon)

[Fiddleback]

Here I'm gonna spill opinion and guess work...no scientific study need apply.:rolleyes:

I think the 'old time' smoking preservation techniques either included salting or drying. Or both. Without drying, salting or some other preservation technique, smoking is not much more than a flavor additive. I think. That's one reason why smoked salmon (remember that topic?:D) should be handled with at least the same food safety considerations as any other food. It's cooked...but it's not necessarily preserved.

My other unsupported thought is that sliced 'anything' will have a shorter life span (spoil faster) than when it's not sliced. My guess is that with the slicing, more surface area is revealed to the air, utensils, handling, and other vectors that transport 'spoiling' pathogens. With some (many?) foods, you can scrape the mold or slime off the surface, and safely consume the food because only the surface has been contaminated. 'Fine' cheese and aged beef are two examples. But when the food is sliced, every piece has a surface subject to rapid spoilage. Time plays a role and, over time, sliced or whole, most things are gonna spoil.

At least, that's my logic this early Monday morning...:-?

FB

[oldbear]

Here I'm gonna spill opinion and guess work...no scientific study need apply.:rolleyes:

I think the 'old time' smoking preservation techniques either included salting or drying. Or both. Without drying, salting or some other preservation technique, smoking is not much more than a flavor additive. I think. That's one reason why smoked salmon (remember that topic?:D) should be handled with at least the same food safety considerations as any other food. It's cooked...but it's not necessarily preserved.

My other unsupported thought is that sliced 'anything' will have a shorter life span (spoil faster) than when it's not sliced. My guess is that with the slicing, more surface area is revealed to the air, utensils, handling, and other vectors that transport 'spoiling' pathogens. With some (many?) foods, you can scrape the mold or slime off the surface, and safely consume the food because only the surface has been contaminated. 'Fine' cheese and aged beef are two examples. But when the food is sliced, every piece has a surface subject to rapid spoilage. Time plays a role and, over time, sliced or whole, most things are gonna spoil.

At least, that's my logic this early Monday morning...:-?

FB
>>>>
You just introduced idea of cross contamination into this conversation
The meat slicer blade is clean but not sanitized and it transfers it's pathogens onto everything it touches.You mingle your contamiated turkey slices in with your uncontaminated turkey slices and Shazaaam!! everything becomes contaminated

[smokymtnsteve]

we always let the salmon winter over at 40 below, then smoke it in the spring, folks have been eating airdryed, smoked, salty salmon for a long time.


you can even eat raw salmon after it has sat at forty below.

make sure to store your salmon where bears can't get to it, bears like salmon.

[Wise Old Owl]

Ok slicers add contamination. I am talking about a difference of days vs weeks and I wish I still had my kids microscope for bac counts.