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SunnyWalker
09-26-2008, 17:44
Anyone here ever swim or float the Kennybunc instead of using the "ferry"? Looks pretty tame to me. OK, hit on me. :sun

JAK
09-26-2008, 17:52
I just wanna know if its safe to moon this ferry?

Bearpaw
09-26-2008, 17:54
I got there in the evening in September '99. The water was high and moving fast. I camped near the river.

I forded first thing in the morning. The water was plenty low, and I had no problems.

Pedaling Fool
09-26-2008, 17:58
I crossed it with a massive hangover. I had a hard enough time just walking to the river, but those slippery rocks were hell.

JAK
09-26-2008, 18:12
How far? How deep? How cold? How fast?
Would a single hiking staff help?

Jim Adams
09-26-2008, 18:19
If you were to attempt to swim it at the canoe crossing, I feel sure that you would be swept downstream before you could reach the far shore. I eyeballed that in 1990 and decided it was to much current and I am a good swimmer and a whitewater guide.
OTOH, I forded it at the correct spot upstream the next morning w/o incident.
Water was warm and hiking sticks helped alot.

geek

emerald
09-26-2008, 18:40
Next time try Kennebec and be correct.:welcome

rafe
09-26-2008, 19:02
For starters, its' the Kennebec. To go on... it's reasonably wide, deep, and with a good current. Without a pack, yes, you could swim across... and you'd probably end up at the opposite bank a good half-mile downstream of where you started.

emerald
09-26-2008, 19:19
For starters, it's the Kennebec.
Thanks for the backup _terrapin_.;)

Blissful
09-26-2008, 19:27
Uh oh, here we go....

Hold your breath.

Oops, no - this is the new and improved WB! :)

Anyway, we liked the ferry - a great ride.

Pedaling Fool
09-26-2008, 19:31
These threads are a good test of our maturity.;)

Disclaimer to my previous post. I acknowledge the Kennebec is a river that can kill and is to be respected. However....

Tinker
09-26-2008, 19:49
If you're a real purist, you can be assured that you will be on the AT when in the canoe as there is a white blaze painted on the keel line.
There are enough ways to hurt or kill yourself on the Trail. Since the dam releases are based on the need for electricity and not a time table, you could be half way across and the river could rise an easy two feet before you could make it to the other side. The current would be much, much stronger, too.
Take the ferry. Enjoy the experience and the company of the ferryman. It's just as much a part of the "Trail Experience" as the ford. Of course, I have to add, HYOH and enjoy!

ed bell
09-26-2008, 19:54
Next time try Kennebec and be correct.:welcome


For starters, its' the Kennebec. To go on... it's reasonably wide, deep, and with a good current. Without a pack, yes, you could swim across... and you'd probably end up at the opposite bank a good half-mile downstream of where you started.Fixed. Who says moderators are good for nothing.:p

ed bell
09-26-2008, 19:59
Uh oh, here we go....

Hold your breath.

Oops, no - this is the new and improved WB! :)

Anyway, we liked the ferry - a great ride.


These threads are a good test of our maturity.;)

Disclaimer to my previous post. I acknowledge the Kennebec is a river that can kill and is to be respected. However....No need to hold your breath. Listen to John. Keep to the subject and refrain from personal attacks and we'll be fine.:cool:

emerald
09-26-2008, 20:05
Fixed. Who says moderators are good for nothing.:p

Not me. Some have made themselves quite useful.:) I wouldn't have complained if you deleted my post when you made the correction. Toss this one too if you like.


Uh oh, here we go....

Sorry to disappoint you. I'm not crossing or arguing about it this time around. Done both before and have other things I'd rather do.

TJ aka Teej
09-27-2008, 08:37
Anyone here ever swim or float the Kennebec
I've spent several afternoons swiming at the ferry crossing.

How far?
It varies.

How deep?
It varies.

How cold?
A seldom asked question. It varies.

How fast?
It varies.

Would a single hiking staff help?
Yes.
Last week the icy water rose quickly two feet between crossings.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=27996&catid=newimages&cutoffdate=1
That's Zenon on shore, with paddling Hoot and Sundance as passengers.
Dave "the new guy" is great, a master Maine guide, and a skilled boatman.
edit to add this pic taken of the same crossing minutes before for comparision:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=28004&c=563

ed bell
09-27-2008, 11:58
Great photos of the water level change, TJ.

fiddlehead
09-27-2008, 14:23
Anyone here ever swim or float the Kennybunc instead of using the "ferry"? Looks pretty tame to me. OK, hit on me. :sun

Yeah, my hiking partner "Party Animal" swam it in '89.
Put his pack in a garbage bag with his shoes and swam across right where the boat crosses and lost perhaps 30 or 40' to the current and we camped on the north side and he built a fire and dried out his shorts.

Gotta love these Kennebec threads.
Where's Steve Longely with his "Try it and you'll die" posts?

Jack Tarlin
09-27-2008, 15:36
No need to disrespect Steve Longley here, Fiddlehead.

Fact is, people HAVE died fording the Kennebec, and no matter how often people try and overlook this truth, it doesn't alter history. The canoe ford was put in place because some very well-informed, very knowledgable people came to the conclusion that crossing the river on foot is dangerous.

And the fact the person how knows this part of the river better than anyone alive, Steve Longley, also feels this to be true, is something to be respected, and not scoffed at.

Lone Wolf
09-27-2008, 15:41
1 person drown fording, quite a few have been murdered walking the trail. fording is safer than walking. lotsa fun too

Lone Wolf
09-27-2008, 15:42
Yeah, my hiking partner "Party Animal" swam it in '89.
Put his pack in a garbage bag with his shoes and swam across right where the boat crosses and lost perhaps 30 or 40' to the current and we camped on the north side and he built a fire and dried out his shorts.

Gotta love these Kennebec threads.
Where's Steve Longely with his "Try it and you'll die" posts?

i asked steve many times if he ever forded. he never answers which tells me no.

Jack Tarlin
09-27-2008, 15:46
Yeah, and I've never hang-glided.

But I know it's a risky, inherently dangerous thing to do.

And Wolf, your point was......... :rolleyes:

Lone Wolf
09-27-2008, 15:48
And Wolf, your point was......... :rolleyes:

the kennebec is low on the list of dangers on the AT

dessertrat
09-27-2008, 17:19
i asked steve many times if he ever forded. he never answers which tells me no.

Why wouldn't he answer if he had never done it? He says it's dangerous, so of course he shouldn't do it, so no would be the answer you should expect. It's more likely he has forded, if he won't answer you, isn't it?

OregonHiker
09-27-2008, 17:20
the kennebec is low on the list of dangers on the AT

They should build a bridge :p

slow
09-27-2008, 17:29
From the pic,it looks ...well easy if you can swim?

JAK
09-27-2008, 17:35
Something tells me there wouldn't be so much controversy over people fording the Kennebec if there wasn't money involved.

JAK
09-27-2008, 17:38
I've spent several afternoons swiming at the ferry crossing.

It varies.

It varies.

A seldom asked question. It varies.

It varies.

Yes.
Last week the icy water rose quickly two feet between crossings.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=27996&catid=newimages&cutoffdate=1
That's Zenon on shore, with paddling Hoot and Sundance as passengers.
Dave "the new guy" is great, a master Maine guide, and a skilled boatman.
edit to add this pic taken of the same crossing minutes before for comparision:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=28004&c=563Looks very fordable, and fun.
Also looks like the ferry would be a better option for many people.

I don't undestand the controversy.

JAK
09-27-2008, 17:43
There are sections of the Fundy Footpath where people can go along the beach at low tide, which can be very dangerous if you are caught between the tides. There have been some very close calls, and maybe some fatalities. Not sure. Anyhow, people tell you to be careful and discuss how to do it and when you shouldn't but nobody gets all worked up about it. No money involved. That's the difference.

Great that there is a ferry service, but its nice to discuss the fording option also.

slow
09-27-2008, 18:01
Something tells me there wouldn't be so much controversy over people fording the Kennebec if there wasn't money involved.

Any way to make money on fear.

wrongway_08
09-27-2008, 18:10
The river is around 6 - 8 feet at a few areas, even at low tide. Strong current to top it off.

I say go for it - of course I just want to see if you can make it :) !

The river bottom changes every year due to ice flow during the winter. So it may not be the same as some remember it year to year.

slow
09-27-2008, 18:27
What is the cost to cross?

woodsy
09-27-2008, 18:37
What is the cost to cross?
0.00$ if you take the ferry
Possibly your life if you hit it wrong on a ford :eek:

Walkie Talkie
09-27-2008, 18:54
What is the cost to cross?

Priceless

bathtub boy
09-27-2008, 19:11
i grew up where the kennebec is tidal, we swam across it once. outward tide pulled us nearly a mile downriver before we got across. once a long time ago i was sleeping on the east bank near the AT and the next thing we know we were surrounded by water because of dam activity. it came up fast, everything got soaked, it was laughable the next morning but but very creepy in the night

bathtub boy
09-27-2008, 19:19
...oops, hit the reply button
the kennebec in caratunk is indeed fordable, done it several times with my dog. the thing is if your halfway across and the water starts to come up you would be hard pressed to make it to either bank before the water got swift enough to carry you.

Lone Wolf
09-27-2008, 21:20
Why wouldn't he answer if he had never done it? He says it's dangerous, so of course he shouldn't do it, so no would be the answer you should expect. It's more likely he has forded, if he won't answer you, isn't it?

he's never forded. he has no knowledge of the act. he's a boat guy

fiddlehead
09-27-2008, 21:32
No need to disrespect Steve Longley here, Fiddlehead.


Sorry, you are right Jack.

Just have seen so many of these fording the Kennebec threads now (this is actually a little different as it is a "swimming the Kennebec" thread), and it seems a little too open minded comparatively.

I know it's an age old argument and it's all been said.

Dirty Harry
09-27-2008, 21:35
I forded the canoe route this year with a pack. It got chin level, I couldn't tip toe any more because of the current, I had to get my pack off which was floating-because of wieght and pack liner-thank god, and had to start swiming across harder then Michael Felps. I made it about 100 feet past the designated route. Fun as heck, but stupid as hell.

Lone Wolf
09-27-2008, 21:36
Sorry, you are right Jack.

Just have seen so many of these fording the Kennebec threads now (this is actually a little different as it is a "swimming the Kennebec" thread), and it seems a little too open minded comparatively.

I know it's an age old argument and it's all been said.

actually steve has disrespected all those that choose to take an alternative way across the river. his way is the only way. plus he gets paid to canoe you across

ed bell
09-27-2008, 21:42
Go to advanced search. Type in Kennebec in the subject line. There have been plenty of threads on this. If you have not seen those threads, start there.

fiddlehead
09-27-2008, 22:13
actually steve has disrespected all those that choose to take an alternative way across the river. his way is the only way. plus he gets paid to canoe you across

I guess we all tend to protect where are money comes from.

I remember you LW, praising your EXON.

I've been known to praise the garment manufacturers still left in the US. (although now my last one has gone south to Guatemala or Mexico i believe)

Sorry for thread drift but, bummer about Richard Wright aye?
We opened and closed every set this week with a Floyd tune in memorence.

fiddlehead
09-27-2008, 22:54
Oh No!
Looks like another Kennebec thread getting closed soon.

Don't we all know everyone's opinion's on this by now?

Question? Anyone swim it THIS year?

Lone Wolf
09-28-2008, 07:20
i didn't swim the kennebec this year. yet. and i haven't stayed in a holiday inn express

THEmapMAKER
09-28-2008, 09:02
Is there a ferry everyday of the year?

MOWGLI
09-28-2008, 09:21
Is there a ferry everyday of the year?

No. There is a season. The river is jammed with ice in the winter. Go to the Maine Appalachian Trail Club home page for the most up to date info.

fiddlehead
09-28-2008, 10:01
I brought up Steve's name on this thread and apologized for it later (to Baltimore Jack)

There are so many of these Kennebec threads and they all end up the same.

Lone Wolf likes to ford when he can. So do others (me included)
Sometimes it's safe, sometimes not.
This thread is on swimming it. I've seen that done too.
It was a calm day, the current wasn't strong, my buddy was a good swimmer. He had no problems.
I believe that my buddy, LW, me, and many others have an open mind when it comes to getting across the Kennebec.
I think LW was just pointing out that the ferryman's mind might not be quite as open in this regard.

I say: swim it if you're a really strong and confident swimmer if it appears to be a mellow current and you are sure of yourself.

TJ aka Teej
09-28-2008, 11:59
Looks very fordable, and fun.

You can tell that from a still picture taken one afternoon showing just the top of the water?


I don't undestand the controversy.

The subject, to ford or ferry across the Kennebec, involves a choice that could end your hike, seriously injure you, or even be fatal. This isn't tarp v tent.
The risks: There is no "safe" time of day, releases can come at anytime, even when the river's already running fast and deep. People repeating this lore are remembering a time 20 years ago, things have changed. You might have to dodge flotillas of rafts, canoes, limbs, logs, and whole trees. Hypothermia. Slipping or turning an ankle on the loose cannon ball sized algae covered river stones. Sinking into soft sandbars over your head. Stepping off into a hole. Eddys, pools, and rips. Tripping on sunken debris, fishing line, or weeds. Losing all your gear in a dunking. Getting swept downstream and beaten against mid-river boulders.
The controversy: A few hikers posting on the Internet encourage new AT hikers to ford claiming there's no risk at all, there's only a question of courage.
There always have been boats taking hikers across here. Myron Avery placed the trail here to take advantage of the ferry traffic from the train station to the sporting camps. When I first crossed the Kennebec in the 70s there were numbers posted at the payphone for people who'd take you across, and you could call from the camps if you were heading north. No one knows why she decided to ford that day two decades ago, but since Alice Ferrence's accident, the MATC and ATC have contracted with skilled and dedicated people to provide a regular, daily, free, and safe way across for all.
Please, take the canoe.

TJ aka Teej
09-28-2008, 12:12
I think LW was just pointing out that the ferryman's mind might not be quite as open in this regard.
No one has paddled that crossing more than Steve. No one has witnessed more fording than Steve. No one has fetched more swept away hikers and their gear than Steve. No one has seen the Kennebec crossing, at all seasons and in all conditions, more than Steve. If he's formed an opinion regarding fording there, it's by no means the result of a closed mind.

Sly
09-28-2008, 12:48
From the pic,it looks ...well easy if you can swim?

I can't swim and didn't ford the 1st time, but since I have much more experience now than then fording, I'd give it a try.

Sly
09-28-2008, 12:52
No one has witnessed more fording than Steve. No one has fetched more swept away hikers and their gear than Steve.

Just curious, any one know how many hikers and their gear, Steve has "fetched"?

JAK
09-28-2008, 13:17
People have swam the Niagara Gorge. Now that IS crazy.
When I said it was fordable or swimmable I didn't mean by everybody.

I think it's important to let people know that it is tidal, which is predictable if you are aware of it, and that there is also dam above also that could release water, unpredictably.

Don't want to stir up a fuss. I just wish people could get informed and make informed decisions.

I've had fisherman tell me I should never paddle or sail on the Bay of Fundy, EVER.
I have alot of respect for the fisherman. They know the Bay better than I ever will.
I think people should get as much information as they can though.

fiddlehead
09-28-2008, 13:57
If he's formed an opinion regarding fording there, it's by no means the result of a closed mind.

I believe this is a thread about "swimming" the Kennebec. Not fording. (that threads been done many times)

I also believe that open minded people would perhaps try it before chastising those who do. Wouldn't you agree?

As I mentioned before, i have not tried swimming the Kennebec as i am not a real strong swimmer. But was there and watched my buddy do it and he said it was pretty easy.

JAK
09-28-2008, 14:03
I don't think the fisherman that tell me not to paddle or sail on the Bay of Fundy have closed minds, they just treat all non-fisherman the same. I can understand that.

But I think it should still be possible for sailors and paddlers to have an informed and intelligent conversation about sailing and paddling on the Bay, even though its not a safe place for everyone all of the time or anyone some of the time. Otherwise you get more mis-information.

It's a trade-off between encouraging people that shouldn't and mis-informing people that can and will anyway.

Lone Wolf
09-28-2008, 14:05
Maineak swam the kennebec in 88 on his first thru hike. floated actually. he carried an inner tube and pump from Stratton, blew it up when he got to the river and went across

rafe
09-28-2008, 14:09
I also believe that open minded people would perhaps try it before chastising those who do. Wouldn't you agree?

You're talking about something that can be hazardous to one's health. I wouldn't chastise anyone for doing it -- but I'd chastise them for suggesting that others should.

I believe I've seen certain statistics claiming that most Americans can't swim 100 yards. And that's saying nothing about swimming in current. Even if some small percentage have done it safely and without incident, that doesn't suggest that anyone or everyone else ought to try it.

JAK
09-28-2008, 14:13
I think it would be better to discuss the hazards of fording and swimming in current than say it should never be done.

boarstone
09-28-2008, 14:14
I can't swim and didn't ford the 1st time, but since I have much more experience now than then fording, I'd give it a try.

I think you'awl need to read and retain post #48 fromTJ...
and anyone else for that matter thinking of swimming, the bottom changes season by season if not weekly/daily

Lone Wolf
09-28-2008, 14:15
"it's the same old story, same old song and dance...my friend". this thread ain't gonna last much longer :)

JAK
09-28-2008, 14:22
So basically get your information elsewhere then. :)

fiddlehead
09-28-2008, 14:36
You're talking about something that can be hazardous to one's health. I wouldn't chastise anyone for doing it -- but I'd chastise them for suggesting that others should.

I believe I've seen certain statistics claiming that most Americans can't swim 100 yards. And that's saying nothing about swimming in current. Even if some small percentage have done it safely and without incident, that doesn't suggest that anyone or everyone else ought to try it.

The river is only about 20 yards where the trail is (that's where my buddy swam it in '89) (he never touched bottom except the first and last 5' also as the river is too deep at the white blazes for foot entrapment or similar)

And I really believe that anyone who tries it probably knows if they can swim 100 yards or not. I doubt anyone is going to just go and jump in with their pack on because they read something on this thread telling them to do so.

I didn't see anyone say that everyone should swim it.

I even said i didn't try it because i'm not a strong swimmer and to consider it "IF" you are a strong swimmer and it is an easy current.

rafe
09-28-2008, 16:31
The river is only about 20 yards where the trail is (that's where my buddy swam it in '89) (he never touched bottom except the first and last 5' also as the river is too deep at the white blazes for foot entrapment or similar)

We'll have to disagree on that distance. Look at these photos in the links that teej posted earlier in the thread. Bear in mind also that the (nobo) crossing is not the shortest way across, but a diagonal heading upstream.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/...s&cutoffdate=1 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=27996&catid=newimages&cutoffdate=1)

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/...?i=28004&c=563 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=28004&c=563)

And my own photo, from around 8 AM, while waiting to cross (looking downstream)

http://www.terrapinphoto.com/kennebec.jpg

The Old Fhart
09-28-2008, 16:47
The Maine guidebook/map says 70 yards which is the figure I've always heard and seen in print. No way anyone could believe it's only 20 yards.

Pedaling Fool
09-28-2008, 16:49
We'll have to disagree on that distance. Look at these photos in the links that teej posted earlier in the thread. Bear in mind also that the (nobo) crossing is not the shortest way across, but a diagonal heading upstream.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/...s&cutoffdate=1 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=27996&catid=newimages&cutoffdate=1)

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/...?i=28004&c=563 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=28004&c=563)

And my own photo, from around 8 AM, while waiting to cross (looking downstream)

http://www.terrapinphoto.com/kennebec.jpg
I don't know how wide it is, I've heard 70 yards, but that all depends on where you're at (I'm sure it varies) and also depends on water level at any given time. But dude!!! Your pic (and you admit it) is looking down steam, how does that help? Nice pic though;)

rafe
09-28-2008, 17:48
I don't know how wide it is, I've heard 70 yards, but that all depends on where you're at (I'm sure it varies) and also depends on water level at any given time. But dude!!! Your pic (and you admit it) is looking down steam, how does that help? Nice pic though;)

Well, for one... if you were to swim it, downstream is where you'd end up. ;)

Pokey2006
09-28-2008, 18:38
I think it's important to let people know that it is tidal, which is predictable if you are aware of it, and that there is also dam above also that could release water, unpredictably.


Is it tidal where the AT crosses it??? Seems to me that's a little far away from the ocean for the tides to have much of an impact...

MOWGLI
09-28-2008, 19:07
Is it tidal where the AT crosses it???

No, it isn't.

Lone Wolf
09-28-2008, 19:07
Is it tidal where the AT crosses it??? Seems to me that's a little far away from the ocean for the tides to have much of an impact...

if you're NOBO, get to the river around 7 AM, go upstream 150 yards or so, you'll see the rock bar, and cross there. pretty tame till the last 20 yards or so where it gets about waist deep. just have 2 sticks for balance and you'll be fine. lotsa fun :)

The Old Fhart
09-28-2008, 19:41
Once again, dangerous, misleading, and totally false advice. If you want the facts, read the ATC Maine guide, The Thru-Hiker's Handbook, or any publication on the trail rather than listen to people with an agenda who are encouraging others to put themselves in danger.

Lone Wolf
09-28-2008, 19:45
Once again, dangerous, misleading, and totally false advice. If you want the facts, read the ATC Maine guide, The Thru-Hiker's Handbook, or any publication on the trail rather than listen to people with an agenda who are encouraging others to put themselves in danger.

calm down. you've never forded. neither has steve. my info is good

dessertrat
09-28-2008, 19:49
Now that I've got an air mattress, I'll raft across!

mrc237
09-28-2008, 19:54
Sos Sos Sos Give It A Break!!!!!!!!---idiots Ford Smart Hikers Ferry

Lone Wolf
09-28-2008, 20:03
Sos Sos Sos Give It A Break!!!!!!!!---idiots Ford Smart Hikers Ferry

you've never forded. give it a break. idiots spout off about stuff they know nothing about

The Old Fhart
09-28-2008, 20:06
LW-"calm down. you've never forded. neither has steve. my info is good"I'm calm. Totally false. You have no knowledge of this. The info in the publications is good, not yours.

Lone Wolf
09-28-2008, 20:08
I'm calm. Totally false. You have no knowledge of this. The info in the publications is good, not yours.

nope. you're in a lather

Lone Wolf
09-28-2008, 20:13
nope. you're in a lather

most folks spend their life doing everything by a book that someone else wrote, never wanting to test themselves. fear and self doubt bogs them down.

The Old Fhart
09-28-2008, 20:15
From the 2008 Thru-Hiker’s Handbook p.161:
“A dangerous river to ford because of its unpredictability. The water can rise and surge at any time ( a dam upstream releases automatically when power generation is needed, not on a set schedule as believed by many), and you cannot cross faster than the water rises once it starts to rise.” You can believe people who have knowledge of the river or you can choose to believe someone with an agenda who is intent in putting others in danger.

Lone Wolf
09-28-2008, 20:18
put it to rest fahrt. it's a thread about swimming the river. stay on topic

vonfrick
09-28-2008, 21:48
They should build a bridge :p

that is the worst idea i have ever heard, it's bad enough every dayhiker in their uncle can drive up to pierce pond and booger up your day.


put it to rest fahrt. it's a thread about swimming the river. stay on topic

me and warrghy hiked through maine with a kid this summer, 24 years old, small frame, like 5'4" tops. anyway the little dork after paying for a bed and comfort at Northern Outdoors and getting totally hammered with us, got up at like 3 am and swam it- yes, after first walking the 3+ miles or so down to where the boat is he swam his little self across, and then he and his now 80+ lbs of soaking wet gear had to drag their sorry hungover selves to pierce pond where we made fun of them and were damn glad they were alive.

my overall impression? i could do it and i'm a 39 year old woman. do i want to do it and get my pack wet? no.

Blissful
09-28-2008, 22:25
Uh oh, here we go....

Hold your breath.



Ah...it was inevitable, I suppose....
There are subjects that will always be taboo on WB. This is one of them... :D

Anyway, I liked the canoe. And it was an enjoyable ride with the Ferryman.

Tin Man
09-28-2008, 23:18
this is one of those topics that should be closed as soon as it pops up. just drop in some links to some of the more interesting threads from the past. we even had commentary from the ATC on one of the last go rounds and still people argue. folks need to try the search button once in a while. :rolleyes:


http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=665682&postcount=261

ed bell
09-29-2008, 00:29
I want to share a snip from a post SGT. Rock made a few months ago. I share his views about moderating and attempt to remain true to that. Threads like this one seem to be inherently difficult because the topic of crossing the Kennebec invites disagreement on several different levels. Every single time this topic comes up the same disagreements surface and folks cannot seem to simply state their opinion and move on. Instead of disagreeing without being disagreeable posts spiral out of control and the thread goes down the tubes. In case anyone hasn't noticed, very few posts have actually answered the original question in the original thread starter.



If you run a website as large as this you cannot go around policing every single thread and post - it gets impossible. At a certain point you have to decide what needs more attention than other threads based on past performance of certain topics or reaction to certain topics or maybe just which direction a topic is heading based on past experience. If you try to run a bunch of flat-ass-rules you end up driving yourself nuts trying to keep up with everything. The idea is to actually moderate as little as possible to keep people interacting. As I have experienced, any moderation comes across as either censorship, or a perception of agreement or disagreement with a topic. Most of the time this perception is wrong, but people hate being moderated - period.

So, in the end, we moderate as little as we feel we can get by with because we want people to feel that can participate and interact. Occasionally a topic or thread gets to be a victim because some people will always go to dragging it down, but for the most part, as you have pointed out, we let people discuss what they want to discuss.
As SGT. Rock often says "think about it".

drastic_quench
09-29-2008, 04:11
So who would buy a T-shirt that read:

FORD THE COG
MOON THE FERRY

mudhead
09-29-2008, 04:54
that is the worst idea i have ever heard, it's bad enough every dayhiker in their uncle can drive up to pierce pond and booger up your day.







So sorry. I try to be quiet.

Tin Man
09-29-2008, 05:52
I want to share a snip from a post SGT. Rock made a few months ago. I share his views about moderating and attempt to remain true to that. Threads like this one seem to be inherently difficult because the topic of crossing the Kennebec invites disagreement on several different levels. Every single time this topic comes up the same disagreements surface and folks cannot seem to simply state their opinion and move on. Instead of disagreeing without being disagreeable posts spiral out of control and the thread goes down the tubes. In case anyone hasn't noticed, very few posts have actually answered the original question in the original thread starter.


As SGT. Rock often says "think about it".

I agree, but that's funny given the new rules, heavy moderation, and the fact a Kennebec discussion is one of those that helped kick off the new, "improved" WB.

The Old Fhart
09-29-2008, 06:59
Tin Man –“this is one of those topics that should be closed as soon as it pops up. just drop in some links to some of the more interesting threads from the past. we even had commentary from the ATC on one of the last go rounds and still people argue. folks need to try the search button once in a while.:rolleyes:“
Surprisingly this thread was going fine with pretty reasonable back and forth discussions and disagreements until one poster started his usual personal attacks on the Ferryman and others with opposing points of view. Scan the posts in this thread and you can see this.

Lone Wolf
09-29-2008, 08:25
Surprisingly this thread was going fine with pretty reasonable back and forth discussions and disagreements until one poster started his usual personal attacks on the Ferryman and others with opposing points of view. Scan the posts in this thread and you can see this.

i didn't read any posts on this thread by anyone "attacking" the ferryman. does anybody else besides fart see these "personal attacks"?

The Old Fhart
09-29-2008, 08:27
...a rhetorical question or boast?:-?

Worldwide
09-29-2008, 08:38
Whoiever is urging people to ford the Kennebac versus take the ferry must make their living off obituary pages. I have done it and urge everyone to not even consider it. Someone asks a life or death question, and every dope with a PC comes out of the woodwork with an opinion. These people don't know your swimming skills, woodmanship, or river condition when you arrive at the river. At damn release the river flows at 6500 cfs ( cubic feet a second) the bottom is slippery with big drop offs and holes that appear and disappear with water flow, and it is cold I mean real cold maybe 40 degrees. You get hypothermia at around the 10 minute mark in 37 degree water. It flows fast and cold and one spill and you can get so busted up you can't swim. Don't be a fool this is not a river to be messed with. I just hope all the proponents of fording the Kennebac are willing to stand behind their replies in front of the deceased persons loved ones at the funeral. The risk isn't worth the reward. The ferry has reasonable hours they scale down later in the season due to less hiker need. However, this is when the river is the coldest and in my opinion the most dangerous.

Worldwide

Lone Wolf
09-29-2008, 08:40
when did you swim it?

mrc237
09-29-2008, 08:47
you've never forded. give it a break. idiots spout off about stuff they know nothing about

Being a good union member I know whats safe and whats stupit!!!

Lone Wolf
09-29-2008, 08:58
Being a good union member I know whats safe and whats stupit!!!

i ain't even gonna go there :D

jersey joe
09-29-2008, 08:59
I took the ferry when I crossed, but I always wondered, if you swim the kennebec River, what should you do with your pack? I'm thinking if you ford(walk) you wear it, but if you swim?

Lone Wolf
09-29-2008, 09:02
I took the ferry when I crossed, but I always wondered, if you swim the kennebec River, what should you do with your pack? I'm thinking if you ford(walk) you wear it, but if you swim?

an inner tube

jersey joe
09-29-2008, 09:04
an inner tube
Yes, i read the post where maniak used an inner tube. Good idea. But what if you didn't have a tube? I was thinking toss all your gear into a garbage bag and tie it to your leg while you swim?

Lone Wolf
09-29-2008, 09:06
Yes, i read the post where maniak used an inner tube. Good idea. But what if you didn't have a tube? I was thinking toss all your gear into a garbage bag and tie it to your leg while you swim?

swimming is foolish. just camp at the river and wait til early morning then walk across

mrc237
09-29-2008, 09:06
Might as well tie it around yer neck! :rolleyes:

The Old Fhart
09-29-2008, 09:19
LW-"swimming is foolish. just camp at the river and wait til early morning then walk across "
From the 2008 Thru-Hiker’s Handbook p.161:
“A dangerous river to ford because of its unpredictability. The water can rise and surge at any time ( a dam upstream releases automatically when power generation is needed, not on a set schedule as believed by many), and you cannot cross faster than the water rises once it starts to rise.”Prevarication and equivocation personified.:D

fiddlehead
09-29-2008, 09:21
My buddy "Party Animal" who i talked about earlier in this thread who swam it in '89, put his pack in a big garbage bag and blew as much air in it as he could. It floated and he pulled it behind him tied to a parachute cord.
It worked for him.

As i stated about a year ago on a similar thread, there were some hiking friends of mine from out west (ALDHA-West) who hiked a trail in the yukon and carried a small inflatable mattress (the kind you see in swimming pools) with them to put a pack on, then swam along side of it when they had to cross the Fraser river i believe it was.

If you search thru ALDHA-West's newsletters, i'm sure you could find it.
Point is, there are trails out there that require swimming of rivers that are too deep or too big to ford. If you want to hike these trails, you'd better have a plan.
If not, stay home or stick to the AT.

As I've also said before, fording the Kennebec on a day when we haven't had tons of rain before hand and early in the morning before the release, can be good practice for the PCT and CDT fords which are much harder/bigger/more numerous than the AT fords.

If you don't ever plan on hiking these more arduous trails, take the ferry and enjoy the ride. Chances are you'll never need those skills anyway.

If you feel unsafe about swimming or fording, then you shouldn't do it. It is not for everyone obviously. Doesn't mean it's not done and doesn't have important lessons to be learned.

Lone Wolf
09-29-2008, 10:19
From the 2008 Thru-Hiker’s Handbook p.161: Prevarication and equivocation personified.:D

you've never forded or swam either

Lone Wolf
09-29-2008, 10:27
you've never forded or swam either

maybe you should set up a lifeguard chair at the river and volunteer your time during hiking season seeing as how you're so very concerned about hiker's safety

Two Speed
09-29-2008, 10:42
Paging Two Speed, Two Speed, please come to the front desk.

OregonHiker
09-29-2008, 10:45
that is the worst idea i have ever heard,


psssttt....I included the "stick your tongue out smiley thingy" as a humorous reference to a thread about building a bridge over the Kennebec from a few months ago.

The Old Fhart
09-29-2008, 10:50
LW-"you've never forded or swam either "I don't swim and never said I did so that's a moot point. I have forded as I have explained in past threads. Try to stick to facts if that's possible.:rolleyes:

MOWGLI
09-29-2008, 10:52
If anyone decides to ford the Kennebec because they read it on the internet or in a shelter register... then they are accountable for their own actions. A hike on the AT or any other trail is and remains an effort in self sufficiency. As it should be.

I very well may ford the Kennebec if I ever get up that way again. But I'll do so with my eyes wide open, knowing that I''m a strong swimmer, and that the river could rise without notice.

woodsy
09-29-2008, 11:22
Y'all need some help stirring this bubbling cauldron ?:rolleyes::D

oso loco
09-29-2008, 15:56
My buddy "Party Animal" who i talked about earlier in this thread who swam it in '89, put his pack in a big garbage bag and blew as much air in it as he could. It floated and he pulled it behind him tied to a parachute cord.

It worked for him.

As i stated about a year ago on a similar thread, there were some hiking friends of mine from out west (ALDHA-West) who hiked a trail in the yukon and carried a small inflatable mattress (the kind you see in swimming pools) with them to put a pack on, then swam along side of it when they had to cross the Fraser river i believe it was.


That would be the Canol Trail.


Point is, there are trails out there that require swimming of rivers that are too deep or too big to ford. If you want to hike these trails, you'd better have a plan.


If not, stay home or stick to the AT.

As I've also said before, fording the Kennebec on a day when we haven't had tons of rain before hand and early in the morning before the release, can be good practice for the PCT and CDT fords which are much harder/bigger/more numerous than the AT fords.

It’s about time someone made that point – thank you.


If you don't ever plan on hiking these more arduous trails, take the ferry and enjoy the ride. Chances are you'll never need those skills anyway.


If you feel unsafe about swimming or fording, then you shouldn't do it. It is not for everyone obviously. Doesn't mean it's not done and doesn't have important lessons to be learned.

Now – a couple points that seem to have been overlooked –

1. There’s been ONE death at the Kennebec ford
2. The most elementary safety rule for fording ANY stream is to unfasten your pack belt. The woman who died failed to do so.
3. Higher power demands (meaning – downstream water surges) aren’t necessarily “scheduled” but are well known to be directly related to either weather conditions (high temps) or to time of day. There’s nothing particularly unpredictable about water level surges due to power demands. The question here is the knowledge and cerebration level of the hiker.
4. Dangerous??? If you want a dangerous ford, try Strawberry Creek in the Bob Marshall during snowmelt – or the Green River if the bridge is out – or Bear Creek on the PCT – or the Moose River or Yates-Torrent (that bridge IS gone) on the GDT.
5. The ferryman made the Kennebec ford more dangerous by refusing to take packs so the hikers could ford without their packs. For anyone who can swim, the danger is minimal if one is not carrying a pack – even in the event of a surge. With a pack, it gets more difficult – and “dangerous”.
6. Finally – the 2 pictures that purport to show a difference in water level fail to do so. Compare the 2 pictures and you’ll find the same rock in the lower right of one picture and the lower left on the other. There is no significant difference in water level between the two photos.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/...s&cutoffdate=1 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=27996&catid=newimages&cutoffdate=1)

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/...?i=28004&c=563 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=28004&c=563)


There’s a lot more nonsense here, but I don’t have time to play with it right now.

Ginny and I did the Kennebec ford in ’92. I’d do it again – she might not. But that would be her choice – and it wouldn’t be anybody else’s business. It would certainly not be a decision that would be made for her by the ATC – or ALDHA – or Whiteblaze - or me.

The other 3 hikers that were with us that day in “92 took the ferry – they all had leather boots and, in their own words, they didn’t want to spend the next week drying out their boots. That day, BTW, was our “perfect day” on the AT.

As Fiddlehead said – if you’re comfortable doing the ford, then go for it – whether you “ford” it or “swim” it.

If not, then take the ferry.

Either way, nobody has either right or reason to question your decision. It’s your hike – so hike it “your way”.

Tin Man
09-29-2008, 16:07
My buddy "Party Animal" who i talked about earlier in this thread who swam it in '89, put his pack in a big garbage bag and blew as much air in it as he could. It floated and he pulled it behind him tied to a parachute cord.
It worked for him.

As i stated about a year ago on a similar thread, there were some hiking friends of mine from out west (ALDHA-West) who hiked a trail in the yukon and carried a small inflatable mattress (the kind you see in swimming pools) with them to put a pack on, then swam along side of it when they had to cross the Fraser river i believe it was.

If you search thru ALDHA-West's newsletters, i'm sure you could find it.
Point is, there are trails out there that require swimming of rivers that are too deep or too big to ford. If you want to hike these trails, you'd better have a plan.
If not, stay home or stick to the AT.

As I've also said before, fording the Kennebec on a day when we haven't had tons of rain before hand and early in the morning before the release, can be good practice for the PCT and CDT fords which are much harder/bigger/more numerous than the AT fords.

If you don't ever plan on hiking these more arduous trails, take the ferry and enjoy the ride. Chances are you'll never need those skills anyway.

If you feel unsafe about swimming or fording, then you shouldn't do it. It is not for everyone obviously. Doesn't mean it's not done and doesn't have important lessons to be learned.

This is about the best advice on fording I have read. Common on more remote trails and almost taboo on the AT, fording can be safe if you follow LW's directions and do it as Mowgli suggests, with your eyes wide open... and, I would add, be prepared to turn back if you don't feel comfortable.

Most should stick to the ferry and not feel you are getting any less of the full AT experience by doing so. There is a lot to be said for following the white blazes all the way, including the one in the bottom of the canoe. Although, a little blue blazing along the way only enriches the adventure, simply pick the ones that make sense for you. :cool:

jersey joe
09-29-2008, 17:25
My buddy "Party Animal" who i talked about earlier in this thread who swam it in '89, put his pack in a big garbage bag and blew as much air in it as he could. It floated and he pulled it behind him tied to a parachute cord.
It worked for him.
Besides an inner tube, this seems like the best approach for swimming across the Kennebec that I can think of. And it has been successfully done before.

MOWGLI
09-29-2008, 17:35
The "crazy one" makes sense.

The Old Fhart
09-29-2008, 18:38
From post #107:

"As I've also said before, fording the Kennebec on a day when we haven't had tons of rain before hand and early in the morning before the release…."

"Higher power demands (meaning – downstream water surges) aren’t necessarily “scheduled” but are well known to be directly related to either weather conditions (high temps) or to time of day. There’s nothing particularly unpredictable about water level surges due to power demands. The question here is the knowledge and cerebration level of the hiker….."The second quote directly contradicts the first. The only part of the second that is fact is that there can be unscheduled releases any time.

Unfortunately the "cerebration level of the" poster is in question because they don't understand how the power grid works. If you are at the ford and the weather is cool, that doesn't mean that is a predictor of no demand for power and no dam release. Any demand for power on the entire grid, from anywhere in New England, could call for a dam release.

Here is a description of the Harris dam. FPL is Florida Power and Light, the dam owners since 1999.


"FPL Energy owns and operates six electricity generating stations on the Kennebec River and one on the Sebasticook River. Harris: 85.9 megawatts, built in 1954, FPL Energy’s largest hydro generation facility in Maine…"

"Electricity from Harris is fed into the New England grid and moves throughout the state and the surrounding areas."
4864(click for large image of Harris Dam

oso loco
09-29-2008, 19:04
From post #107:
The second quote directly contradicts the first. The only part of the second that is fact is that there can be unscheduled releases any time.

Unfortunately the "cerebration level of the" poster is in question because they don't understand how the power grid works. If you are at the ford and the weather is cool, that doesn't mean that is a predictor of no demand for power and no dam release. Any demand for power on the entire grid, from anywhere in New England, could call for a dam release.


ROTFLMAO!!!

The first quote came from a different post than the first one. You should pay more attention to what you're answering. :)

As for 'cerebration" - while it's been a long time, I've done some power plant design - coal, nuclear and hydro. I could be wrong, but I suspect I have a better handle on how the grid works than you do. Demand profiles are more predictable than you seem to understand. It IS a fact, though, that most hikers would have no clue about that. It's not part of the ATC or ALDHA literature. :D

Your reference to the dam itself has nothing whatever to do with power demand on the grid - or with the discussion at hand. now if you'd provided information on dam operation, that might have been useful - and even relevant.

Lone Wolf
09-29-2008, 19:17
ROTFLMAO!!!

The first quote came from a different post than the first one. You should pay more attention to what you're answering. :)

As for 'cerebration" - while it's been a long time, I've done some power plant design - coal, nuclear and hydro. I could be wrong, but I suspect I have a better handle on how the grid works than you do. Demand profiles are more predictable than you seem to understand. It IS a fact, though, that most hikers would have no clue about that. It's not part of the ATC or ALDHA literature. :D

Your reference to the dam itself has nothing whatever to do with power demand on the grid - or with the discussion at hand. now if you'd provided information on dam operation, that might have been useful - and even relevant.ol fart took care of cats during the winter one time on mt. washington. he knows all about dams and stuff

Jim Adams
09-29-2008, 19:18
I have never worked at a power plant or power station and I really don't understand alot about it as far as the into and out of the grid but after guiding and paddling whitewater on energy demand dam release controlled flow levels for 30 years I can reasonably make the statement that releases are indeed predictable....as well as arrival times down stream.
PADDLE THE BUBBLE!

geek

woodsy
09-29-2008, 19:32
I have never worked at a power plant or power station and I really don't understand alot about it as far as the into and out of the grid but after guiding and paddling whitewater on energy demand dam release controlled flow levels for 30 years I can reasonably make the statement that releases are indeed predictable....as well as arrival times down stream.
PADDLE THE BUBBLE!

geek
Not so easy as that on the Kennebec, cause the all mighty Dead River dumps into the Kennebec in the Forks adding substantial water(CFS) to the flow in Carratunkk. Sorry to bust your bubble Jim but we are talking some serious watershed here beyond the Kennebec.
Ain't nobody fording or swimming the Kennnebec today with 4 inches of rain recently...
It's unpredicticable... just sayin...:)

Worldwide
09-29-2008, 20:15
Sorry for the delay in response Lonewolf. I swam it on Oct 3rd or 4th in 2007, and I constructed a small pack raft out of deadwood with some 550 cord, my yak trax and doggy paddled behind it. Before the swim attempt I took a picture of the raft and made a video saying by to my loved ones before the attempt ( no joke ). Serious it isn't to be taken lightly, and my suggestion is to wait for the ferry. Please don't take what I did as a how to instruction manual.

The Old Fhart
09-29-2008, 20:25
oso loco-“ROTFLMAO!!!

The first quote came from a different post than the first one. You should pay more attention to what you're answering.”
I’m glad you’re so easily amused but you should really pay attention to what you post. You did indeed include that first quote in your post #107. If you need your memory refreshed, check the 4th quote you included in post #107. Apparently you forgot that. If you like I can repost your entire post for all to see. Feel free to admit that you did indeed post that. Also please explain how the first quote can be different than the first one?:-?


oso loco-“As for 'cerebration" - while it's been a long time, I've done some power plant design - coal, nuclear and hydro. I could be wrong, but I suspect I have a better handle on how the grid works than you do. Demand profiles are more predictable than you seem to understand.

Glad to see you were gainfully employed and you probably used some of the power distribution equipment the company I worked for designed but none of that prior work experience will tell you what the load put on the grid from Boston is going to be when you get to a river crossing in Maine. You even admit that “It IS a fact, though, that most hikers would have no clue about that” which pretty much fits the meaning of unpredictable, and Woodsy has also pointed that out to you. This information is also included in all the handbooks


oso loco-“Your reference to the dam itself has nothing whatever to do with power demand on the grid - or with the discussion at hand

Actually as I explained to you, the load comes from anywhere on the grid, not the dam. The size of the dam and its capacity is important because it will give you an idea of the amount of water that could be released when demand is put on the dam. I could give you the email address of a friend of mine that owns several small hydro dams to explain that if that would help you.

Pedaling Fool
09-29-2008, 20:29
Sorry for the delay in response Lonewolf. I swam it on Oct 3rd or 4th in 2007, and I constructed a small pack raft out of deadwood with some 550 cord, my yak trax and doggy paddled behind it. Before the swim attempt I took a picture of the raft and made a video saying by to my loved ones before the attempt ( no joke ). Serious it isn't to be taken lightly, and my suggestion is to wait for the ferry. Please don't take what I did as a how to instruction manual.
Maybe "no joke" - but it's funny

Kirby
09-29-2008, 21:12
The way to determine if it's "safe" or not is to look upstream and see if there are sand bars. If there are, you can most likely complete it.

Would I advise it? Nah. Canoing the river is one of the neat parts of a thru hike.

Kirby

rafe
09-29-2008, 21:25
I have never worked at a power plant or power station and I really don't understand alot about it as far as the into and out of the grid but after guiding and paddling whitewater on energy demand dam release controlled flow levels for 30 years I can reasonably make the statement that releases are indeed predictable....as well as arrival times down stream.
PADDLE THE BUBBLE!

geek

My memory's just a bit hazy... but I think I remember a chapter in Nature Noir (by Jordan Fisher Smith) in which an unexpected/unplanned release on the American River (in CA) led to the death of a paddler. I'll try to look it up. The book is a good read, all around.

PS: Looked it up; it's not quite as I remembered it. In Ch. 10 ("As Weak as Water") he describes a rafting trip that went dangerously (but not fatally) haywire from an unexpected ebb in the river's flow.
Meanwhile, I thought, somewhere deep in the control rooms of dams and electric grids, men and women were sitting in front of angled panels on which little LEDs blinked... Could they have any idea what the filp of a switch could do to us here? Probably not. The world was not founded upon such empathy and imagination. (P. 185)

fiddlehead
09-29-2008, 21:56
My memory's just a bit hazy... but I think I remember a chapter in Nature Noir (by Jordan Fisher Smith) in which an unexpected/unplanned release on the American River (in CA) led to the death of a paddler. I'll try to look it up. The book is a good read, all around.

PS: Looked it up; it's not quite as I remembered it. In Ch. 10 ("As Weak as Water") he describes a rafting trip that went dangerously (but not fatally) haywire from an unexpected ebb in the river's flow.
Meanwhile, I thought, somewhere deep in the control rooms of dams and electric grids, men and women were sitting in front of angled panels on which little LEDs blinked... Could they have any idea what the filp of a switch could do to us here? Probably not. The world was not founded upon such empathy and imagination. (P. 185)


Paddler's who die, usually die because they are trapped in their boat and it is upside down. Sometimes that's because of what's called a "strainer" in the whitewater boating world.
There are no "strainers" in the vicinity of the AT where it crosses the Kennebec.

Other's die from foot entrapment (where your foot get's caught between two rocks, and the current pushes you downstream into a position that you cannot get your foot out. This is a possibility on a ford of the Kennebec but not a swim. (this thread is about swimming)

I paddled class 4-5 whitewater for 10 years and didn't have a great eskimo roll. I swam a lot of rivers and came close to foot entrapment once or twice.
I also forded a lot of dangerous rivers in my hiking career.

The worst part about my Kennebec ford was the temperature of the water.
i hate ice cold water and we did it in late oct. 2001.

Here's a video from that cold day of our SOBO hike in '01:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEPxDtepd_8

(there's some other stuff in there too but it starts and ends with the ford)

rafe
09-29-2008, 22:17
FH, the point of my last post was about the alleged predictability of flows on controlled rivers. And maybe a gratuitous plug for Jordan Smith's book. There is a death-by-drowning in the book (on the same river) but it's in a different chapter. Pretty much the whole book is about recreational rivers and dams.

Jim Adams
09-30-2008, 00:45
Not so easy as that on the Kennebec, cause the all mighty Dead River dumps into the Kennebec in the Forks adding substantial water(CFS) to the flow in Carratunkk. Sorry to bust your bubble Jim but we are talking some serious watershed here beyond the Kennebec.
Ain't nobody fording or swimming the Kennnebec today with 4 inches of rain recently...
It's unpredicticable... just sayin...:)

Been on the Dead too. Still predictable.
You have to consider the entire watershed anytime that you want to determine upcoming flow and their patterns. Knowing the current local weather patterns (of north central Maine, ) the weather that may place more or less demand on power production, the possibility of flooding or the possibility that more water may be needed down stream for commerce and the actual view you see at the crossing or boating put-in all have to be taken into consideration in determining the safety of the any river. I am confident in my skills at determining swimming or fording FOR ME. I have no idea of your swimming or fording skills this is not offered as advice to swim or ford, simply an explaination of alot of the factors involved with river safety.:-?

geek

oso loco
09-30-2008, 01:23
I’m glad you’re so easily amused but you should really pay attention to what you post. You did indeed include that first quote in your post #107. If you need your memory refreshed, check the 4th quote you included in post #107. Apparently you forgot that. If you like I can repost your entire post for all to see. Feel free to admit that you did indeed post that.

Sorry, sonny, but the first quote came from post #99. Check it out. The fact that it was included as a quote in my post doesn't make it "my" words. I didn't forget -

In any case, the words are accurate even if they weren't mine. Fiddlehead and I seem to agree about most things - which is passing strange for two Triple Crowns.


Also please explain how the first quote can be different than the first one?:-?

You're right about this - it should have read:
"The first quote came from a different post than the second one."



Glad to see you were gainfully employed and you probably used some of the power distribution equipment the company I worked for designed but none of that prior work experience will tell you what the load put on the grid from Boston is going to be when you get to a river crossing in Maine. You even admit that “It IS a fact, though, that most hikers would have no clue about that” which pretty much fits the meaning of unpredictable, and Woodsy has also pointed that out to you. This information is also included in all the handbooks

The fact that hikers generally don't know anything about power plant operation or demand profiles doesn't make either the demand or the water surge "unpredictable". It just makes the hikers ignorant about that particular subject. If you want to redefine words, you need to find someone who'll buy into your game.


Actually as I explained to you, the load comes from anywhere on the grid, not the dam. The size of the dam and its capacity is important because it will give you an idea of the amount of water that could be released when demand is put on the dam. I could give you the email address of a friend of mine that owns several small hydro dams to explain that if that would help you.

Yes dear - I know that - I knew that 45 years ago when I played in that sandbox. Then I spent 40+ years playing systems engineering and operations with more systems (and more advanced systems) than I think you can imagine. You need to talk to your friends about what used to be called demand profiles - I'm not sure what the latest words are, but it doesn't matter, the concept and application are the same. Then maybe you won't be ignorant about them. If you want to snow me, you're gonna have to try a lot harder than this. :D

Last question - have you ever been able to actually participate in a discussion without either wandering off-topic or getting mired in the details?

Finally - I'd still ford the Kennebec unless it had been raining for a couple days. I made worse fords last month in Canada.

Oh - yeah - the name DOES fit.

The Old Fhart
09-30-2008, 05:24
oso loco- "Sorry, sonny, but the first quote came from post #99. Check it out. The fact that it was included as a quote in my post doesn't make it "my" words. I didn't forget -"First, I'm not your son, which pleases me to no end. Second, I didn't say that the first quote you used was yours, I correctly pointed out that the second quote (yours) contradicted the first, which is true.

oso loco-"You're right about this..."It doesn't stop there.;)


oso loco-"Yes dear - I know that - I knew that 45 years ago when I played in that sandbox."Sorry, I'm straight, find someone else to play in your 'sandbox'.


oso loco-"The fact that hikers generally don't know anything about power plant operation or demand profiles doesn't make either the demand or the water surge "unpredictable". It just makes the hikers ignorant about that particular subject."Unfortunately the majority of hikers don't possess the supreme intellect you have or have up-to-date 'demand profile' information on the New England Power Grid so the bottom line is for thru hikers, the river is unpredictable, as stated by every publication on the Appalachian Trail. Fortunately the knowledgeable hikers will rely on the correct and prudent information available from experts on the river to make an intelligent decision rather than take the word of someone who may have stayed at a Holiday Inn.

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 06:06
he river is very predictable early in the morning during the hiking season

rickb
09-30-2008, 06:55
he river is very predictable early in the morning during the hiking season

At about what time in the AM does the river become less predictable?

For those who wish to be conservative, are poor swimmers, and/or buy into the stories about how the water level can rise faster than one can get to the other side even as you are 1/2 way across, is there a conservative cut off time to begin a ford by? During hiking season, I mean.

MOWGLI
09-30-2008, 06:57
At about what time in the AM does the river become less predictable?

For those who wish to be conservative, are poor swimmers, and/or buy into the stories about how the water level can rise faster than one can get to the other side even as you are 1/2 way across, is there a safe cut off time to begin a ford?

If you're a "poor swimmer", you really have no business being in that river. There is a canoe route.

rickb
09-30-2008, 07:13
Perhaps I should reword my question...

Is there a conservative time in the morning by which you should start your ford if you want to insure that the water level won't rise once you are half way across?

Or do you always need to assume that it can rise at any time, and make retracing your footsteps under the same conditions that got you to where you find yourself impossible?

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 07:22
Perhaps I should reword my question...

Is there a conservative time in the morning by which you should start your ford if you want to insure that the water level won't rise once you are half way across?

Or do you always need to assume that it can rise at any time, and make retracing your footsteps under the same conditions that got you to where you find yourself impossible?

7 AM is a good time

Blue Jay
09-30-2008, 07:41
Old Phart and Loco, thank you for not only your enjoyable argument but also doing so surrounded by Terminators itching to kill it. Name calling in the face of certain Termination, you guys rock.:confused:

MOWGLI
09-30-2008, 07:49
7 AM is a good time


I would add that you ALWAYS have to assume that the water level could rise. Because you are not in control of the dam upriver. Someone else is.

woodsy
09-30-2008, 08:08
he river is very predictable early in the morning during the hiking season


7 AM is a good time

Wasn't swimmable/fordable yesterday, the day before or today and it is the hiking season isn't it?
Well?

Nearly Normal
09-30-2008, 08:57
"New and improved":banana
This is some funny ****:D

MOWGLI
09-30-2008, 09:00
Just about every river in the US is unpredictable. Very few run wild and free, and even those that do could rise unexpectedly due to a storm event up river.

The ATC & MATC have some serious liability issues that result in the way that their publications are written. I let them worry about their liability. As for me, the liability issues would never factor into my decision to ford or not. My physical condition, the level, current and temperature of the river, the time of day I was there, the availability of a canoe, the degree of confidence that my gear will stay dry. These are the sort of factors that would shape my decision to ford or not. Not what somebody wrote on the internet or in a shelter register. But then again, I'm a strong swimmer, and always have been. I'm also pretty confident in my physical abilities.

ed bell
09-30-2008, 09:34
Old Phart and Loco, thank you for not only your enjoyable argument but also doing so surrounded by Terminators itching to kill it. Name calling in the face of certain Termination, you guys rock.:confused:I'm no Terminator and I'm not "itching" to kill it, but I will request that they tone down the snark and condescension.

jersey joe
09-30-2008, 09:44
How far away is the closest bridge across the kennebec and could one hike to it to cross if necessary?

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 09:46
Just about every river in the US is unpredictable. Very few run wild and free, and even those that do could rise unexpectedly due to a storm event up river.

The ATC & MATC have some serious liability issues that result in the way that their publications are written. I let them worry about their liability. As for me, the liability issues would never factor into my decision to ford or not. My physical condition, the level, current and temperature of the river, the time of day I was there, the availability of a canoe, the degree of confidence that my gear will stay dry. These are the sort of factors that would shape my decision to ford or not. Not what somebody wrote on the internet or in a shelter register. But then again, I'm a strong swimmer, and always have been. I'm also pretty confident in my physical abilities.

a bridge needs to be built before someone falls out of the canoe and drowns

MOWGLI
09-30-2008, 09:47
a bridge needs to be built before someone falls out of the canoe and drowns

That's pretty funny. :D

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 09:52
Wasn't swimmable/fordable yesterday, the day before or today and it is the hiking season isn't it?
Well?

some mornins' it just ain't fordable is all

oso loco
09-30-2008, 09:52
First, I'm not your son, which pleases me to no end. Second, I didn't say that the first quote you used was yours, I correctly pointed out that the second quote (yours) contradicted the first, which is true.
It doesn't stop there.;)

"Sorry, I'm straight, find someone else to play in your 'sandbox'.

Unfortunately the majority of hikers don't possess the supreme intellect you have or have up-to-date 'demand profile' information on the New England Power Grid so the bottom line is for thru hikers, the river is unpredictable, as stated by every publication on the Appalachian Trail. Fortunately the knowledgeable hikers will rely on the correct and prudent information available from experts on the river to make an intelligent decision rather than take the word of someone who may have stayed at a Holiday Inn.


ROTFLMAO!!!!

Yep - the Fhart isdefinitely predictable.

Have a good day anyway.

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 09:53
That's pretty funny. :D

'ol steve used to stand up in the canoe when he paddled you across. that ain't good canoemanship

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 09:54
ROTFLMAO!!!!

Yep - the Fhart isdefinitely predictable.

Have a good day anyway.

he'd be a great broken record salesman

oso loco
09-30-2008, 09:57
At about what time in the AM does the river become less predictable?

For those who wish to be conservative, are poor swimmers, and/or buy into the stories about how the water level can rise faster than one can get to the other side even as you are 1/2 way across, is there a conservative cut off time to begin a ford by? During hiking season, I mean.

Under those conditions - take the canoe.

And never, never, ever hike the PCT, the CDT or the GDT.

If you remember my attitude about all this garbahge, you might remember that I consider the AT to be the "training ground" for other trails.

oso loco
09-30-2008, 10:09
Old Phart and Loco, thank you for not only your enjoyable argument but also doing so surrounded by Terminators itching to kill it. Name calling in the face of certain Termination, you guys rock.:confused:

Jay - I've been "terminated" more times than you'd believe - starting with atml.

Mowgli -you're right. The pubs (ATC/ALDHA) that Fahrt is so fond of are required by liability considerations to put in the disclaimers about the danger, unpredictability, etc. of the river and to PUSH the canoe as the only safe and reasonable alternative. Given the litigious nature of the present society, I can't really fault them for that. But that doesn't mean I have to live by their fear-based philosophy. I HMOH - damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.

Ed - I'm finished - Phart is just too predictable - and doesn't try hard enough. Amateurs...... pffft.

TJ aka Teej
09-30-2008, 10:15
There is no "safe" time of day, releases can come at anytime, even when the river's already running fast and deep. People repeating this lore are remembering a time 20 years ago, things have changed.

7 AM is a good time
Those were the days, eh LW? Way back when the first release was scheduled for 7:30 every morning?
At 7 AM today the temp was in the 40s and the sun had just come up in Caratunk.
How's that trail from Pierce Pond in the dark?
Had it been raining upstream last night? What was the water temp, what was the flow rate, and when were the last and next dam releases?

TJ aka Teej
09-30-2008, 10:23
Ed - I'm finished - Phart is just too predictable - and doesn't try hard enough. Amateurs...... pffft.

You consider this topic a contest for 'gotcha' cyber-sniping?
Why not start a 'how to ford' thread, and try teaching instead, Jim?

weary
09-30-2008, 10:25
Just about every river in the US is unpredictable. Very few run wild and free, and even those that do could rise unexpectedly due to a storm event up river. .....
One fourth of July weekend, I took two inexperienced families canoeing on the Saco River south of Fryeburg. This is usually a very easy and fun stretch of the river. It hadn't been raining, but the river was high which puzzled me.

But we set off anyway. The river kept getting higher, and I worried when I saw several trees had been undercut along the shore, but their was no easy escape.

I told the lead paddler in one of the canoes to stay in the middle of the stream. I thought he understood what I had said, and why.

But five minutes later he and his wife and a kid were in the water, all caught up in the branches of a tree. The wife was on the outside and was being forced under water every few seconds as the tree bobbed up and down in the current.

We managed to extricate her from the branches and found the canoe a half mile down stream. I asked the guy why he had ignored my advice. "I wanted to be safe, so I stayed closed to shore," he replied.

There are several dams on the Saco, but none up stream from where we put in. I discovered later that there had been six inches of rain in the mountain headwaters, 10 or 15 miles upstream, resulting in a flash flood.

This could easily been a fatal situation, given that I was the only one there with even middling canoeing experience.

I tell this tale to suggest that sometimes the unexpected happens on rivers that no amount of river profiles will warn you about.

The same thing happened to me on the Lower Dead River once. The dam owners had assured us that they were going to release just enough water to making canoeing as easy as the Dead gets. But again nature intervened in the form of unpredicted rain. As a result I wrapped my canoe around a rock and had to walk 10 or 15 miles to the Forks. Anyone fording the Kennebec River that day would have been in for a surprise, even at 7 a.m.

Weary

MOWGLI
09-30-2008, 10:27
5. The ferryman made the Kennebec ford more dangerous by refusing to take packs so the hikers could ford without their packs. For anyone who can swim, the danger is minimal if one is not carrying a pack – even in the event of a surge. With a pack, it gets more difficult – and “dangerous”.

I'm not an attorney, but the above is probably the result of legitimate liability concerns. The ferryman, ATC & MATC don't want to be seen as enabling anyone to ford.

MOWGLI
09-30-2008, 10:31
One fourth of July weekend, I took two inexperienced families canoeing on the Saco River south of Fryeburg. This is usually a very easy and fun stretch of the river. It hadn't been raining, but the river was high which puzzled me.

But we set off anyway. The river kept getting higher, and I worried when I saw several trees had been undercut along the shore, but their was no easy escape.

I told the lead paddler in one of the canoes to stay in the middle of the stream. I thought he understood what I had said, and why.

But five minutes later he and his wife and a kid were in the water, all caught up in the branches of a tree. The wife was on the outside and was being forced under water every few seconds as the tree bobbed up and down in the current.

We managed to extricate her from the branches and found the canoe a half mile down stream. I asked the guy why he had ignored my advice. "I wanted to be safe, so I stayed closed to shore," he replied.

There are several dams on the Saco, but none up stream from where we put in. I discovered later that there had been six inches of rain in the mountain headwaters, 10 or 15 miles upstream, resulting in a flash flood.

This could easily been a fatal situation, given that I was the only one there with even middling canoeing experience.

I tell this tale to suggest that sometimes the unexpected happens on rivers that no amount of river profiles will warn you about.

The same thing happened to me on the Lower Dead River once. The dam owners had assured us that they were going to release just enough water to making canoeing as easy as the Dead gets. But again nature intervened in the form of unpredicted rain. As a result I wrapped my canoe around a rock and had to walk 10 or 15 miles to the Forks. Anyone fording the Kennebec River that day would have been in for a surprise, even at 7 a.m.

Weary

My daughter was hit by lightening on July 3, 2006 when a pop-up thunderstorm occurred in the Nantahala NF. There was no prediction for storms on that day. It came out of the blue.

So yes, Ma Nature can always drop a surprise on you when you least expect it. That's why I said that you ALWAYS have to expect the river to rise if you choose to ford it. To do otherwise could prove fatal.

TJ aka Teej
09-30-2008, 10:32
How far away is the closest bridge across the kennebec and could one hike to it to cross if necessary?
Hi Joe.
The nearest bridge is in Bingham, 20+ miles south of Harrison's via woods roads, and about 16 miles south of the AT crossing on 201 in Caratunk.

TJ aka Teej
09-30-2008, 10:34
Originally Posted by oso loco
5. The ferryman made the Kennebec ford more dangerous by refusing to take packs so the hikers could ford without their packs.

So... you agree fording the Kennebec with a pack is dangerous.
:welcome

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 10:37
So... you agree fording the Kennebec with a pack is dangerous.
:welcome

nah. it just sucks getting your bread wet if you slip

Gumbi
09-30-2008, 10:47
Here's a video from that cold day of our SOBO hike in '01:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEPxDtepd_8

(there's some other stuff in there too but it starts and ends with the ford)

Loved the video Fiddlehead. That glissade looked like fun.

Being a strong swimmer, I would definitely try fording it.

Bottom line is, there is risk in anything you do. How many of you have run into people who think you are crazy for hiking the AT because it's "dangerous"? And now you are doing the same thing to others who may very well be qualified to swim or ford the river, just because you are afraid to do it.

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 10:50
Bottom line is, there is risk in anything you do. How many of you have run into people who think you are crazy for hiking the AT because it's "dangerous"? And now you are doing the same thing to others who may very well be qualified to swim or ford the river, just because you are afraid to do it.

there's been a heck of a lot of murders, rapes and assaults of hikers over the years. 1 drowning. fording seems pretty damn safe to me

Pokey2006
09-30-2008, 10:55
I'm more ascared of crossing the Palisades Parkway.

weary
09-30-2008, 12:17
'ol steve used to stand up in the canoe when he paddled you across. that ain't good canoemanship
I know. That's what you may have learned in boy scouts and summer camp, but standing is a common and safe technique.

I once canoed the St. John River in Maine, the most remote canoeing river in the east. a second person in one of the canoes backed out at the last minute. So he went by himself in a 20-foot homemade wood and canvas canoe. He paddled most of the 125 miles of fast water with a couple of white water stretches standing up. He had no bow man to read the water. Standing was the safest way to go down, especially the white water sections.

I've given up paddling while standing. I tend to be a bit unsteady on land, right alone on fast water. But good paddlers stand frequently.

Steve knew what he was doing, he was ferrying hikers using the safest techniques for conditions on the river, whether standing, sitting or kneeling.

Weary

oso loco
09-30-2008, 13:15
You consider this topic a contest for 'gotcha' cyber-sniping?
Why not start a 'how to ford' thread, and try teaching instead, Jim?

No, Teej - but if I get shot at, I shoot back. Been doin' that since I was 14. See no reason to allow anyone a free shot now. Did that once - and she took my lack of response as acquiescence to her lies - and 4 years later the slander goes on.

Lemme think about that "how to ford" thread - this isn't the right time, but maybe after the Gathering. I've got a slide show to put together - from about 26,000 photos and videos.

oso loco
09-30-2008, 13:28
So... you agree fording the Kennebec with a pack is dangerous.
:welcome


uh - I never said it wasn't dangerous Teej. Life is dangerous, crossing the street is dangerous, falling out of bed is dangerous. The question is - what dangers does one choose to accept - and why.

I have major agita about the current "eliminate all hazards" culture that we live with, because elimination of all hazards is foolishness. I lived with that attitude when I worked on the Hubble program - the management thought they could eliminate ALL future flight problems by detailed planning for all possible contingency situations. Anyone who follows the Hubble program knows how that worked out. But only those who had to deal with the attitude know ALL about it. You really don't want to know.

Pedaling Fool
09-30-2008, 13:47
uh - I never said it wasn't dangerous Teej. Life is dangerous, crossing the street is dangerous, falling out of bed is dangerous. The question is - what dangers does one choose to accept - and why.

I have major agita about the current "eliminate all hazards" culture that we live with, because elimination of all hazards is foolishness. I lived with that attitude when I worked on the Hubble program - the management thought they could eliminate ALL future flight problems by detailed planning for all possible contingency situations. Anyone who follows the Hubble program knows how that worked out. But only those who had to deal with the attitude know ALL about it. You really don't want to know.
That's true, attempting to remove all hazards is foolish and presents a new set of hazards. You might say that nature will not allow us to live hazard free. Don't hate the Player, hate the Game. The problem is you got to play the game; I guess you could kill yourself - yeah that'll teach nature:D

rafe
09-30-2008, 14:51
I lived with that attitude when I worked on the Hubble program ...

Hey, smartie, why doncha get to work on the bailout. They need a few geniuses. :rolleyes:

Tin Man
09-30-2008, 14:58
Hey, smartie, why doncha get to work on the bailout. They need a few geniuses. :rolleyes:

Talking about crapping up the threads, are you having a bad day terrapin?

rafe
09-30-2008, 15:00
Talking about crapping up the threads, are you having a bad day terrapin?

The thread was plenty fark'ed up without my help. But thanks so much for your concern.

Tin Man
09-30-2008, 15:13
The thread was plenty fark'ed up without my help. But thanks so much for your concern.

you are most welcome :)

woodsy
09-30-2008, 16:32
i'm really happy to see things getting back to normal here at whiteblaze.net,
as this thread shows.
i'm taking my donation to WB off hold now and gonna annie up again.
Thanks WB for showing some tolerance to these very important
discussions:)
I'll be green again soon:D
yours truly
woodsy

slow
09-30-2008, 18:49
To swim it seems much less danger,due to prep?

JAK
09-30-2008, 19:16
Some good information here. Thanks.

rickb
09-30-2008, 19:19
I have major agita about the current "eliminate all hazards" culture that we live with, because elimination of all hazards is foolishness. I lived with that attitude when I worked on the Hubble program -

Screwing up that mirror was one hazard that could have been avoided. Glad everything worked out OK in the end.

As for the Kennebec, I think the key there is that one of the principal hazards is not inherently knowable to one without local knowledge-- except for the efforts of the ATC and MATC.

If you know a hazard is there-- whether it be an erratic release from a dam upstream, or the consequences of not double checking your specs on an engineering project, smart people can plan accordingly.

Most of the time things tend to work out in the end, regardless. Of course, that's probably what those Wall Street types were thinking as they gambled with other people's money.

I am glad the ATC has taken a different approach. As for one's individual decision on fording, I could care less. I do hope its an informed one, however.

TJ aka Teej
09-30-2008, 19:21
Lemme think about that "how to ford" thread - this isn't the right time, but maybe after the Gathering.
Excellent. A new chapter to The Papers, perhaps. WB always needs helpful input. With all the miles under your boots I always look forward to and read with interest your trip reports and advice.

slow
09-30-2008, 19:31
How many posts are SWIM?

Just close it.:o

ed bell
09-30-2008, 19:35
Hey, smartie, why doncha get to work on the bailout. They need a few geniuses. :rolleyes:


Talking about crapping up the threads, are you having a bad day terrapin?


The thread was plenty fark'ed up without my help. But thanks so much for your concern.


you are most welcome :)Well now that I'm home I'll say that the day went well in here except for the above needless banter. Thanks everyone!:sun

ed bell
09-30-2008, 19:38
How many posts are SWIM?

Just close it.:oWell this isn't straight forward and there have been some good points made here. I think it is more constructive to keep it open and for the most part folks are keeping fairly civil.

slow
09-30-2008, 20:17
Well this isn't straight forward and there have been some good points made here. I think it is more constructive to keep it open and for the most part folks are keeping fairly civil.

I understand...ed.:)

jersey joe
09-30-2008, 20:42
Hi Joe.
The nearest bridge is in Bingham, 20+ miles south of Harrison's via woods roads, and about 16 miles south of the AT crossing on 201 in Caratunk.
Thanks TJ, that is certainly too far. On my 02' thru I was meeting family in caratunk and got to the river in the evening...I had to get across since they traveled 8 hours to see me. Luckily the ferry man made a special run for me otherwise I would have swam it for sure.

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 20:48
Thanks TJ, that is certainly too far. On my 02' thru I was meeting family in caratunk and got to the river in the evening...I had to get across since they traveled 8 hours to see me. Luckily the ferry man made a special run for me otherwise I would have swam it for sure.

it would be so easy to build a bridge. a 600 foot bridge was built over the james river when a bridge already existed

oso loco
09-30-2008, 20:51
Hey, smartie, why doncha get to work on the bailout. They need a few geniuses. :rolleyes:


With apologies to Ed Bell -

Terrapin - do you really hate me that much? :D

Getting involved with the bailout would require working with politicians - yech.

Several years ago I was offered a job to help reorganize NASA. That was two months before I was gonna retire - and I knew I was gonna go hike the CDT again. So --- NASA or CDT, NASA or CDT, NASA or --- aaahh - that was a no-brainer. At this point anything that interferes with hiking is a loser.

Seriously - I don't have a clue about the bailout. I have an "opinion" (which I won't post here), but the solution is not something I have any real knowledge about. Apparently neither does anyone else. I do, however, think it's gonna be painful - probably extremely painful - for all concerned. I may even have to go back to work.

Dang - I don't want to even think about that - I'm havin' too much fun NOT working.

Have a good night anyway

Hikerhead
09-30-2008, 20:55
it would be so easy to build a bridge. a 600 foot bridge was built over the james river when a bridge already existed

Like one of those pull yourself across bridges, like the one on the Creeper Trail just north of Damascus.

Those could not cost much to build. That one on the Creeper looks like it just goes over to a river gage. I wonder how many times a month it gets used. It's made of steel, 20 feet off the river.

Lets build it!!!!

rafe
09-30-2008, 21:11
Terrapin - do you really hate me that much? :D


Nah. You remind me of Winston Niles Rumfoord. Every 59 days you materialize out of the chrono-synclastic infundibulum, sprout your wisdom, and disappear. Kind of amusing, actually.

Jack Tarlin
09-30-2008, 21:12
There has been talk of a bridge for years, and there are many reasons why the bridge has never been built.

For starters, among the folks here who are advocating the project, please tell us how much money you're willing to donate to the project or to the groups charged with its creation, or how many volunteer hours you're willing to devote to its construction.

JAK
09-30-2008, 21:13
Fording and swimming rivers can be a good experience and is a good option. Ferrying across in a canoe with an experienced guide can also be a good experience. I haven't seen the site but I am not sure if any other options are neccessary at this site. It is sad to here about the hiker that drowned but people can drown at supervised public beaches, and others can swim across English Channels. I would have to take a look when I got there, but the posts in this thread have given some useful descriptions of what I might expect when I got there. It depends alot on what related experience folks have, but its always good to get local knowledge also. There are always going to be some that over-generalize the risks, for one reason or another, and more adventurous people have to learn to deal with that sort of thing, and figure things out for themselves with each new adventure at the end of the day. I guess I'll just have to cross that stream when I come to it.

fiddlehead
09-30-2008, 21:19
Well, glad to see this thread was allowed to live.
Thanks Ed.
Lots of trash talking. Good entertainment for my morning coffee.

Back to topic (sort of)
There's been talk from time to time about a bridge.

I know on the last thread about 4 months ago on this subject, the ATC came on here and explained how they had done a study 10 years ago or so and deemed it too wide and too expensive.

At the time, i went to my favorite cyber tool in the world, Google Earth and started looking for a good place for a bridge.
I found (by holding the shift key and using he mouse wheel, and tilting the earth so you can see high and low ground), that if you go exactly 2 miles (as the crow flies) upstream from the AT, there is a place just west of a parking lot, where a 300 foot bridge could be built.
I highly doubt the ATC or whoever they contracted to do the study, had this great tool available to them at the time and wonder if they would reconsider if they knew this?

I also realize it would take a lot of money to build one the way that they would build it. (safe for even 2 year olds).

I would imagine, the hill people from Nepal could build one there for a few hundred dollars but probably those that won't even think about fording or swimming, probably wouldn't want to cross it.

I'm sure there are options in between the million dollar bridge they built last time (VA) and the hundred dollar or so bridge the Nepali's would probably be fine with.

Anyway, thanks Jim for the praise and Gumbi. (you are right, the glissade was more fun than the cold ford)
Jim, i often remember what you told me about fear after that sniper was in DC 5 years ago. Thanks for a good lesson. Keep on truckin!

Jack Tarlin
09-30-2008, 21:22
JAK:

It's good to see that you're interested in acquiring "local knowledge."

With that in mind, it might be prudent to remember that Steve Longley, whose knowledge of that stretch of the river is absolutely, indisputedly, second to nobody else, has been consistently on public record as stating that crossing the river on foot is a manifestly dangerous thing to do.

This was his opinion when he made part of his living taking people across the river in a canoe.

This remains his opinion even after he has stopped running the canoe ferry.

In short, the person equipped with the most "local knowledge" is very clear where he stands on this matter.

Longley worked the river every day for years.

Yet there are folks here who've been to the Kennebec only a handful of times. Some people have posited their opinions here who have never even seen the river.

What do these folks know that Mr. Longley doesn't? :rolleyes:

Gray Blazer
09-30-2008, 21:25
I would imagine, the hill people from Nepal could build one there for a few hundred dollars but probably those that won't even think about fording or swimming, probably wouldn't want to cross it.

I'm sure there are options in between the million dollar bridge they built last time (VA) and the hundred dollar or so bridge the Nepali's would probably be fine with.


Funny, I was thinking the same thing.

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 21:36
JAK:

It's good to see that you're interested in acquiring "local knowledge."

With that in mind, it might be prudent to remember that Steve Longley, whose knowledge of that stretch of the river is absolutely, indisputedly, second to nobody else, has been consistently on public record as stating that crossing the river on foot is a manifestly dangerous thing to do.

This was his opinion when he made part of his living taking people across the river in a canoe.

This remains his opinion even after he has stopped running the canoe ferry.

In short, the person equipped with the most "local knowledge" is very clear where he stands on this matter.

Longley worked the river every day for years.

Yet there are folks here who've been to the Kennebec only a handful of times. Some people have posited their opinions here who have never even seen the river.

What do these folks know that Mr. Longley doesn't? :rolleyes:

steve has never forded

Hikerhead
09-30-2008, 21:41
This is what I'm talking about. Not a good shot but good enough.

Jack Tarlin
09-30-2008, 21:49
Hey, Wolf, since you evidently want to discuss Mr. Longley's experience and qualifications, lemme ask you a direct question, and being a direct guy, I'm sure you'll happily answer it:

Over the last few years, Longley has been on the banks of the Kennebec, and has had to deal with the river, in all sorts of weather, several hundred times.

And that's just the last few years. This doesn't even cover the 20-odd years before this.

So tell us. In the last couple of years, how many times have YOU been there?

MOWGLI
09-30-2008, 21:54
Steve Longley, the ATC, the MATC and a number of other dedicated and knowledgeable people and organizations will tell you that it is dangerous to ford. Ultimately, the decision whether to swim, ford, or take the canoe across the river lies with the individual hiker -and no one else. As it should. The consequences of that decision also lies with the individual hiker. Let the buyer beware.

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 21:56
Hey, Wolf, since you evidently want to discuss Mr. Longley's experience and qualifications, lemme ask you a direct question, and being a direct guy, I'm sure you'll happily answer it:

Over the last few years, Longley has been on the banks of the Kennebec, and has had to deal with the river, in all sorts of weather, several hundred times.

And that's just the last few years. This doesn't even cover the 20-odd years before this.

So tell us. In the last couple of years, how many times have YOU been there?

steve has never forded

JAK
09-30-2008, 21:57
That's a great pic. Thanks. I think its nice to have a variety of different things along the AT and other trails.Too boring if they are all the same. Kirby makes a good point that getting ferried by canoe is worth doing once in its own right. I would still like to ford/swim the Kennebec I think, but would have to take a good look when I got there. I think everyone should try swimming with their pack though, under controlled conditions, just to see what its like. Never know when you might take a spill. I always undo the belt unless its more of a rock hop than a stream ford. When fording/swimming I sometimes carry it over my head and sometimes push it in front and might tow it behind in some cases. For serious crossings it should be bouyant and airtight, just as with a kayak, otherwise its like wrestling with a croc. I'm not a strong swimmer but I've done alot of sailing and paddling, some with current, but mostly open water. Everyone has different skills and experience and physical abilities and every situation is different. Dangerous to over generalize but good to share information.

Jack Tarlin
09-30-2008, 22:00
JAK, with all due respect, if you think you'd like to ford the Kennebec sometime, especially with a full pack, I'd wait til you consider yourself a better swimmer.

JAK
09-30-2008, 22:07
Jack, you can interpret my posts however you wish, and I will cross the Kennebec however I wish when I get there. I've paddled and sailed small boats through the Reversing Falls and on the Bay of Fundy and I think I can handle the Kennebec.

JAK
09-30-2008, 22:09
*** is 'due respect' around here exactly?

Jack Tarlin
09-30-2008, 22:13
JAK:

Don't get the panties in a wad. My interpretation of your abilities was based entirely on your own admission that you weren't a strong swimmer. In that good swimmers have had problems on the Kennebec crossing, especially while wearing a backpack, I thought this might be something to think about. But by all means, proceed as you see fit.

And Lone Wolf, thanx for entirely avoiding a very simple direct question.

I guess answering it was either too difficult or too embarassing. For a guy who prides himself on blunt honesty and forthrightness, tho, I must say your non-answer was kind of a disappointment, sort of what one would expect from a politician.

I guess when the fording's too tough or too scary, I guess it's easier to just walk away from the river.

JAK
09-30-2008, 22:13
Like I said, interpret my posts however you wish.

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 22:14
JAK:

Don't get the panties in a wad. My interpretation of your abilities was based entirely on your own admission that you weren't a strong swimmer. In that good swimmers have had problems on the Kennebec crossing, especially while wearing a backpack, I thought this might be something to think about. But by all means, proceed as you see fit.

And Lone Wolf, thanx for entirely avoiding a very simple direct question.

I guess answering it was either too difficult or too embarassing. For a guy who prides himself on blunt honesty and forthrightness, tho, I must say your non-answer was kind of a disappointment, sort of what one would expect from a politician.

I guess when the fording's too tough or too scary, I guess it's easier to just walk away from the river.
steve has never forded. he's not an authority

Jack Tarlin
09-30-2008, 22:17
You STILL haven't answered a direct answer about YOUR OWN recent experience, Wolf.

Why is that, exactly?

People that deign to question other people's "authority" should have the stomach to field a few queries about their own.

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 22:19
You STILL haven't answered a direct answer about YOUR OWN recent experience, Wolf.

Why is that, exactly?

People that deign to question other people's "authority" should have the stomach to field a few queries about their own.

steve has no experience fording. i have lots of experience

rickb
09-30-2008, 22:21
You ever swim, L. Wolf?

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 22:22
You ever swim, L. Wolf?

the kennebec? yes. in 92

Hikerhead
09-30-2008, 22:25
Jack, what about my bridge. Is that doable?

rickb
09-30-2008, 22:25
the kennebec? yes. in 92

Was that the time you were helping someone who was struggling and might have been in real trouble without your assistance?

Jack Tarlin
09-30-2008, 22:27
So tell us about it, Wolf. How many times you been anywhere near the Kennebec in the last three or four years?

With such vast recent knowledge and experience of the river and the crossing, surely you're eager to tell us all about it, right? :D

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 22:28
Was that the time you were helping someone who was struggling and might have been in real trouble without your assistance?

kinda. the canoe guy failed to show up so we started across

weary
09-30-2008, 22:29
steve has never forded
Are you sure? Did you ask him? Steve messed around these rivers for a lifetime. I'd be surprised to learn that someone who can cross the river perpendicular to the current standing up in a canoe, day, after day, after day, for two decades, has never forded the Kennebec, and/or more difficult streams.

Steve was a rafting guide on the most difficult rivers in the east for much of his adult life. He knows white water rivers. And he knows all the difficulties such rivers present. If you have evidence to the contrary, tell us Lone Wolf.

Weary

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 22:29
So tell us about it, Wolf. How many times you been anywhere near the Kennebec in the last three or four years?

With such vast recent knowledge and experience of the river and the crossing, surely you're eager to tell us all about it, right? :D

steve's feet have never touched the river bottom.

rickb
09-30-2008, 22:30
kinda. the canoe guy failed to show up so we started across

and then what...

Hikerhead
09-30-2008, 22:31
steve's feet have never touched the river bottom.

Maybe he can't swim?

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 22:31
Are you sure? Did you ask him? Steve messed around these rivers for a lifetime. I'd be surprised that someone who can cross the river perpendicular to the current standing up in a canoe, day, after day, after day, for two decades. Has never forded the Kennebec, and/or more difficult streams.

Steve was a rafting guide on the most difficult rivers in the east for much of his adult life. He knows white water rivers. And he knows all the difficulties such rivers present. If you have evidence to the contrary, tell us Lone Wolf.

Weary

i've asked him a dozen times on the dozen different kennebec threads how many times has he forded and no answer just the same lame how dangerous it is

JAK
09-30-2008, 22:32
I would like to know how cold the water is before I swam it. A lot of folks seem to think they know the temperature of body of water all year round without every measuring it. Most people say the Bay of Fundy is 40 degF all year round. It ain't. It gets as low as about 35F end of March and as high as 55F by the end of August. Varies a little from one year to the next also. Early June is most dangerous I think, because it might be very sunny, and people are less likely to be dressed properly. Rivers of course are different, but can be much colder where you get into trouble than where you first poke your toe in.

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 22:33
and then what...

i left the guys in the middle, swam to the north shore and started to hacksaw the lock off the canoe when steve showed up

Jack Tarlin
09-30-2008, 22:34
Not talkin' about anyone's feet, Wolf.

But let's talk about backbone instead.

You've been asked a very simple, very direct question like half a dozen times.

You're obviously too timid to answer it, perhaps because you think that an honest answer would somehow diminish your voice of authority in this argument.

And in thinking that Wolf, ya know what?

You'd be exactly right. :D

This discussion is going nowhere. Kinda hard to rationally debate someone's replies when he's terrified of the questions. G'night.

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 22:34
I would like to know how cold the water is before I swam it. A lot of folks seem to think they know the temperature of body of water all year round without every measuring it. Most people say the Bay of Fundy is 40 degF all year round. It ain't. It gets as low as about 35F end of March and as high as 55F by the end of August. Varies a little from one year to the next also. Early June is most dangerous I think, because it might be very sunny, and people are less likely to be dressed properly. Rivers of course are different, but can be much colder where you get into trouble than where you first poke your toe in.

i ain't cold at all in summer

rickb
09-30-2008, 22:34
i left the guys in the middle, swam to the north shore and started to hacksaw the lock off the canoe when steve showed up

Why did you leave them in the middle?

And do you alway carry a hacksaw blade?

When did you pick up that habit? And where?

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 22:35
Not talkin' about anyone's feet, Wolf.

But let's talk about backbone instead.

You've been asked a very simple, very direct question like half a dozen times.

You're obviously too timid to answer it, perhaps because you think that an honest answer would somehow diminish your voice of authority in this argument.

And in thinking that Wolf, ya know what?

You'd be exactly right. :D

This discussion is going nowhere. Kinda hard to rationally debate someone's replies when he's terrified of the questions. G'night.

you and steve are weird. i'm an authority. i was t the kennebec last year

take-a-knee
09-30-2008, 22:37
Why did you leave them in the middle?

And do you alway carry a hacksaw blade?

When did you pick up that habit? And where?

And likely a lock pick and a 1/4# of C4.

Jack Tarlin
09-30-2008, 22:38
Oh, last year, eh?

Gee, that wasn't so tough now.

And what about the year before that?

Or the one before that?

Or are you saying that your recent experience of the river consists of exactly one visit in recent years? :D

Yup, that's expertise all right. You and Mr. Longley's experience and knowledge is obviously on the same plane.

Um, no. It isn't. And never has been.

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 22:39
Why did you leave them in the middle?

And do you alway carry a hacksaw blade?

When did you pick up that habit? And where?

to get the canoe to retrive them and our packs.

no, just that year

i picked up the habit that year in some town

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 22:41
Oh, last year, eh?

Gee, that wasn't so tough now.

And what about the year before that?

Or the one before that?

Or are you saying that your recent experience of the river consists of exactly one visit in recent years? :D

Yup, that's expertise all right. You and Mr. Longley's experience and knowledge is obviously on the same plane.

Um, no. It isn't. And never has been.

you said goodnight, now go. steve has never forded. he's no authority

rickb
09-30-2008, 22:43
to get the canoe to retrive them and our packs.

Were your friends stuck in the middle of the mighty Kennebec, or just too damn lazy to cross all the way over?

Either way, you were a good guy to help them out. If they were stuck, you were a hero.


i picked up the habit that year in some town

Boys Town?

Pokey2006
09-30-2008, 22:43
I would imagine, the hill people from Nepal could build one there for a few hundred dollars but probably those that won't even think about fording or swimming, probably wouldn't want to cross it.

I'm sure there are options in between the million dollar bridge they built last time (VA) and the hundred dollar or so bridge the Nepali's would probably be fine with.


That's no lie. Some of those bridges over there are way scarier than any river ford! Well, except for river fords in Nepal. Now, those are some REAL rivers, even outside of monsoon season. Fording THOSE would lead to certain death. But their bridges are simple and very effective, shuttling thousands of tourists across those dangerous rapids every year.

If the Nepali people (many of whom live in poverty, by the way) can build bridges that withstand monsoon season, surely a bridge can be built -- on a budget -- in Maine that can withstand a harsh New England winter.

Then again, more people have died in a single Nepali bridge collapse (thinking of one in particular a couple years ago) than have ever died fording the Kennebec...

Why not just a simple rope strung across the river for people to pull themselves across on, or hold onto as they ford? Or a canoe with a rope attached to it so you could pull it back across when you get there?

weary
09-30-2008, 22:46
Jack, what about my bridge. Is that doable?
Jack can answer for himself, I'm sure. But this subject has been studied again and again. The ferry has been found to be the cheapest alternative, both economically, and environmentally.

I have no way of knowing whether there is a feasible site up stream. But I do know that in addition to the cost of the bridge, there would be the cost of buying the land to the new site, and connecting it to the existing trail.

People persist in believing that because Maine is the wildest portion of the entire trail, it is somehow protected, and is all owned by some government agency. It isn't Outside a narrow corridor, the land adjacent to the AT is mostly owned by developers, looking to make a buck on their holdings.

Weary www.matlt.org

rafe
09-30-2008, 22:47
All the things you suggest, Pokey, would be fraught with liability issues. ATC has hashed these issues over in depth, I'm sure -- and it seems the canoe was their best answer. And hey, it seems to be working.

For folks that regret missing the adventure of a ford, be aware that there are some fun fords (albeit a bit tamer) between Monson and Abol Bridge. In fact, for early season southbounders, some of the fords in the 100-mile can be pretty exciting.

Jack Tarlin
09-30-2008, 22:48
Whatever, Wolf. :D

But you did yourself really proud tonight. If you don't agree with Steve's opinion on things, fine. But to disrespect his authority, his expertise, or his knowledge of the Kennebec crossing really doesn't do you any credit.

This sort of talk merely elevates him, and demeans his critics.

But if you want to keep repeating yourself about his lack of authority, have at it, it merely puts you deeper in the river.

But at least you're getting your boots wet. :rolleyes:

Lone Wolf
09-30-2008, 22:49
Whatever, Wolf. :D

But you did yourself really proud tonight. If you don't agree with Steve's opinion on things, fine. But to disrespect his authority, his expertise, or his knowledge of the Kennebec crossing really doesn't do you any credit.

This sort of talk merely elevates him, and demeans his critics.

But if you want to keep repeating yourself about his lack of authority, have at it, it merely puts you deeper in the river.

But at least you're getting your boots wet. :rolleyes:

goodnight remember? steve is no authority. he's never forded

Pokey2006
09-30-2008, 22:50
All the things you suggest, Pokey, would be fraught with liability issues. ATC has hashed these issues over in depth, I'm sure -- and it seems the canoe was their best answer. And hey, it seems to be working.

For folks that regret missing the adventure of a ford, be aware that there are some fun fords (albeit a bit tamer) between Monson and Abol Bridge. In fact, for early season southbounders, some of the fords in the 100-mile can be pretty exciting.

Well, it's not working all that well if we all keep arguing about it over and over and over again...maybe there's another solution that will put it to rest once and for all, is all I'm saying.

rafe
09-30-2008, 22:53
Well, it's not working all that well if we all keep arguing about it over and over and over again...maybe there's another solution that will put it to rest once and for all, is all I'm saying.

The incessant arguments with respect to the Kennebec are another WhiteBlaze "singularity." I honestly had no idea, before partaking of this website, that there was any controversy involved.

Pokey2006
09-30-2008, 22:54
Well, I will agree it does provide a certain level of entertainment...

rafe
09-30-2008, 22:55
Well, I will agree it does provide a certain level of entertainment...

Yup. Where's that "popcorn" icon when you need it? :-?

Gray Blazer
09-30-2008, 22:57
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

rickb
09-30-2008, 22:58
The incessant arguments with respect to the Kennebec are another WhiteBlaze "singularity." I honestly had no idea, before partaking of this website, that there was any controversy involved.

Its one of our black holes. Hard to understand why, but the attraction is over powering.

rafe
09-30-2008, 22:59
Its one of our black holes. Hard to understand why, but the attraction is over powering.

And no light ever escapes.

Jack Tarlin
09-30-2008, 23:04
Truly, the only thing more predictable than the recurrence of certain threads (the Kennebec; dogs; shelters, etc.) is the recurrence of the same people whining about them.

If a subject doesn't interest you folks, then avoid it. It's not hard.

Unless of course, you actually PREFER to whine about it. :rolleyes:

Tin Man
09-30-2008, 23:06
Jack, what about my bridge. Is that doable?

The ATC's thoughts on the bridge option...


http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=665682&postcount=261

Tin Man
09-30-2008, 23:07
Truly, the only thing more predictable than the recurrence of certain threads (the Kennebec; dogs; shelters, etc.) is the recurrence of the same people whining about them.

If a subject doesn't interest you folks, then avoid it. It's not hard.

Unless of course, you actually PREFER to whine about it. :rolleyes:

those who are always wrong, whine

Hikerhead
09-30-2008, 23:10
The ATC's thoughts on the bridge option...


http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=665682&postcount=261


Back to the drawing board...thanks Tin Man and you too Weary.

Jack Tarlin
09-30-2008, 23:13
Hikerhead:

Sorry I missed your question, I think others beat me to it. At present, there are too many problems involved with building a "real" bridge here, mainly involving cost and land acquisition. And a simple bridge, like some sort of cable thing, would be completely impractical, both in terms of safety, but also potential liability. So for the time being, I'm afraid, we're not about to see a bridge here. But as has been discussed here (yet again!) folks have other options.

Tin Man
09-30-2008, 23:15
the kennebec ferry, the AT shelters and the frequent road crossings are what make the AT a pedestrian trail. real hiking trails can be found in the west.

OregonHiker
09-30-2008, 23:15
[..................................

rafe
09-30-2008, 23:16
the kennebec ferry, the AT shelters and the frequent road crossings are what make the AT a pedestrian trail. real hiking trails can be found in the west.

Once you've walked it, you might have the authority to diss it. 'Till then, you're just wanking. :rolleyes:

Jack Tarlin
09-30-2008, 23:20
Um, the stores around here closed hours ago, Oregon. And I don't drink Jack Daniels. Any other ignorant comments or are you all done for the night?

Thanx for your comments. As always, they contribute so much here. :D

fiddlehead
09-30-2008, 23:21
Why not just a simple rope strung across the river for people to pull themselves across on, or hold onto as they ford? Or a canoe with a rope attached to it so you could pull it back across when you get there?

I don't think the rope idea would work. It would catch too much debris including trees that would break it in flood times.

I worked in Maine one year on contruction and one of our jobs was to build a log boom fence across the river (was it the Kennebec or the Androscoggin) in Brunswick Me. We spent about a month chaining huge logs together and pulled them across the river with a propeller/hovercraft kind of thing you see in the Everglades.
Anyway, it lasted until the next big rain (about 2 months) and broke apart.
Bad decision and a waste of money.
But we had fun building it.

Also, your idea about pulling a boat across with a rope would never fly. How many would steal the boat, or let it go and lose many boats.

But i like your way of thinking. Open minds can find a way.
Trashing each other over and over is not going to get it done.

Here's an idea i've had for a while:
You put a river guage upstream a few miles (after the dead comes in) with a satellite feed to a guage reading at either bank (both north and south) where the AT is. And you put a sign up that would tell you what is considered safe ( i know that would be a problem but we could always have a thread dedicated to what WE think vs. what the ATC thinks and sort of have an unwritten code)

That way, people could experience the ford IF the level is down enough and any surge in the river rising would be shown well before it gets there.

Of course, the problem is: what if the river is too high? then you still need the ferryman or a bridge.

But, it wouldn't cost THAT much to do this i don't think. You'd need solar polar and a battery at each station of course and someone to paint a sign and put it where it wouldn't get washed away, and a little research into what is safe.
Could be a fun project.

Just a thought.

Tin Man
09-30-2008, 23:23
Once you've walked it, you might have the authority to diss it. 'Till then, you're just wanking. :rolleyes:

pay attention once in awhile. i ain't dissing it. just saying the AT ain't that hard, since you can have a roof over your head, a boat under your feet, and a deli stop every 2-3 days.

Hikerhead
09-30-2008, 23:24
Hikerhead:

Sorry I missed your question, I think others beat me to it. At present, there are too many problems involved with building a "real" bridge here, mainly involving cost and land acquisition. And a simple bridge, like some sort of cable thing, would be completely impractical, both in terms of safety, but also potential liability. So for the time being, I'm afraid, we're not about to see a bridge here. But as has been discussed here (yet again!) folks have other options.

Thanks Jack. But when it comes to money, it sure does seem like ol' uncle Sam has the cash flowing out of him like a garden hose right now, you know? :D

That was not a political statement.

Tin Man
09-30-2008, 23:26
let's see, we have covered fording, swimming, getting in a boat, bridges, and rope holds. have we covered catapults?

Hikerhead
09-30-2008, 23:28
let's see, we have covered fording, swimming, getting in a boat, bridges, and rope holds. have we covered catapults?

I was thinking...those Roman fireball launchers. That might work.

Tin Man
09-30-2008, 23:31
I was thinking...those Roman fireball launchers. That might work.

with forders on one side and ferrys on the other?

fiddlehead
09-30-2008, 23:32
Back to the bridge idea: i know that Weary has said land acquistion would cost too much.
Well, it makes me wonder who owns the land and if perhaps they would be interested in a land trade?
I'd be willing to bet they've never been asked.

And a 300' bridge 2 miles upstream on the northern side would be closer to the trail anyway i believe.

Perhaps it could work.
I'd rather not hear that they have completed their study and came to their conclusion. Like i said before, i really doubt they had GE in those days when they did the study and it makes things a lot easier to find the best place.

Now, if they knew who owned the land, who might be interested in a land trade, and would be open to a less than a steel, expensive, montrosity bridge, well, maybe something could be built. maybe. maybe not.

In the meantime...........sorry to interrupt the exciting entertainment going on with a possible solution rather than telling terrapin he needs to ford or swim some rivers
just kiddin!
Really!

rafe
09-30-2008, 23:34
pay attention once in awhile. i ain't dissing it. just saying the AT ain't that hard, since you can have a roof over your head, a boat under your feet, and a deli stop every 2-3 days.

Oh, BS. "Pedestrian," as you used it, is derogatory, as was saying it's not a "real trail."

You can make any trail as hard or as easy as you want. In terms of the actual difficulty of the hiking, the JMT was a cakewalk compared to anything on the AT north of Glencliff.

Putting up a tent (vs. staying in a shelter) doesn't make you Edmund Hillary. Get over yourself.

Tin Man
09-30-2008, 23:36
Putting up a tent (vs. staying in a shelter) doesn't make you Edmund Hillary. Get over yourself.

edmund hillary didn't like sleeping with vermin either. that man had class. :)

ed bell
09-30-2008, 23:37
Thanks to everyone who decided to take the high road and remain civil while discussing this. Just a couple observations: discussing whether or not Steve has forded is unnecessary if he is not here to speak for himself. Let's let that go. This thread seems to be the poster child for Sensitive Trail Subjects. I think it's time for a new home. Thanks to everyone who remained civil, stated their points and added to the discussion. The rest of you know who you are. I'll wait a while to move this thread. The destination is a free subscription forum.