View Full Version : Invasive Technologies
Pedaling Fool
10-02-2008, 11:21
There’s a lot of talk about invasive species, but I believe it's not a big problem, nature and man’s management will overcome; however, what about invasive technologies?
When I first entered this hiking community in late 2005, cell phone use on the trail was a very contentious subject; it has somewhat died down now, as if everyone has accepted defeat. So the question is, does it stop with cell phones...figure the odds? It's called slippery slope or evolution or call it what you want, but the AT will never be the same and there will be other invasive technologies (the writing is on the wall) to further degrade our wilderness experience.
I know there are many that carry cell phones and don’t ever use them in the presence of others, that’s not the point here. The point is that there are many that do. Many never even heard of Whiteblaze, but what can you do, it’s not illegal, there are no official National Park Service rules (LNT is not enforceable WRT use of technologies on the trail) to prohibit use. But the question is, what new technologies will further change the AT?
I don’t have any answers; it’s just a sad fact that hit me hard, like a brick, this morning.
To me cell phones are not as sad an invasion as the music machines. Yeah, I'm a dinosaur, but walking along with your head full of canned music seems like it's a different experience than walking along listening to the sounds around you--whatever they are, from the wind in the trees to the roar of the Interstate--and whatever earworms your head provides to take up the slack.
Christus Cowboy
10-02-2008, 11:39
There’s a lot of talk about invasive species, but I believe it's not a big problem, nature and man’s management will overcome; however, what about invasive technologies?
When I first entered this hiking community in late 2005, cell phone use on the trail was a very contentious subject; it has somewhat died down now, as if everyone has accepted defeat. So the question is, does it stop with cell phones...figure the odds? It's called slippery slope or evolution or call it what you want, but the AT will never be the same and there will be other invasive technologies (the writing is on the wall) to further degrade our wilderness experience.
I know there are many that carry cell phones and don’t ever use them in the presence of others, that’s not the point here. The point is that there are many that do. Many never even heard of Whiteblaze, but what can you do, it’s not illegal, there are no official National Park Service rules (LNT is not enforceable WRT use of technologies on the trail) to prohibit use. But the question is, what new technologies will further change the AT?
I don’t have any answers; it’s just a sad fact that hit me hard, like a brick, this morning.
I'll give you credit here John.... this topic has some real discussion potential and should be interesting what direction or directions this goes. I think one of the reasons this has stirred such emotions on both sides of the technological divide is probably because the technology is moving faster than generally accepted trail etiquette. In the absence of generally accepted practices such technology can create a rather divisive environment. Just like LNT has been come an accepted standard a similar approach needs to be taken with this issue as well..... Especially when Backpacker magazine a couple issues back had an entire section in their magazine entitled "IHike" complete with product reviews of all the latest gizmos.....
The central problem one will find with "banning" certain devices is that there's always a new device just around the corner ready to hit the market which would make things more complicated.... Then would come spitting match over what is acceptable and what is not and what is allowed and what is not (ad nauseum), etc. Whatever that middle ground winds up being, I find that the general irritant is that such technologies can "magnify" obnoxious behavior on the trail. One thing I have found is that the hiking community has been pretty good at "regulating" wayward elements within the community when there's widespread acceptance of certain conventions and expectations.
Just my thought..... let the dialogue begin!
I don’t think it’s any given item, thing, device, cigarette or a dog or anything else people do and have that can intrude on others.
It’s more the way a person interacts with others. An obnoxious uncaring person can intrude on others in any environment with whatever he has on hand.
But at the same time a civilized person will be much more aware of his environment and try to be considerate of others and take or keep his activities or items away from others while he’s doing them. Or in the case of a dog on the trail, keep it on a leash and camp away from others.
I don’t think it’s any given item, thing, device, cigarette or a dog or anything else people do and have that can intrude on others.
It’s more the way a person interacts with others. An obnoxious uncaring person can intrude on others in any environment with whatever he has on hand.
But at the same time a civilized person will be much more aware of his environment and try to be considerate of others and take or keep his activities or items away from others while he’s doing them. Or in the case of a dog on the trail, keep it on a leash and camp away from others.
Good point. A group of loud, obnoxious people--or even one by him or herself--can be just as intrusive as any amount of technological devices.
Cell phones and MP3 players are no different than digital cameras. You would be hard pressed to find someone opposed to digital cameras, but all they are are a different combination of transistors. Its the people that use them, not the item itself.
NICKTHEGREEK
10-02-2008, 11:52
I don’t think it’s any given item, thing, device, cigarette or a dog or anything else people do and have that can intrude on others.
It’s more the way a person interacts with others. An obnoxious uncaring person can intrude on others in any environment with whatever he has on hand.
But at the same time a civilized person will be much more aware of his environment and try to be considerate of others and take or keep his activities or items away from others while he’s doing them. Or in the case of a dog on the trail, keep it on a leash and camp away from others.
Some can't tolerate the fact that there are others in their "space" you know the type who get pissed because they can't find a parking space at the mall on Christmas Eve, or get a dinner reservation for 12 on Mothers Day. Some folks who hate phones simply have no one who will call them or take their calls. Bitter people allow the normal actions of normal people to bother them excessively.
Check this out...
http://www.wildebeat.net/
Parts One and Two of "Keep me connected" discuss this very issue.
Your truly read an essay and discussed this isssue as well.
Part one:
http://www.wildebeat.net/index.cgi/shows/wild_places/E156.html
Part two:
http://www.wildebeat.net/index.cgi/shows/wild_places/E157.html
My essay:
http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/Outdoor-Writings/The-Changing-Culture-of-Connectivity.html
Wilderness managers of the NPS were interviewed, Derek Moore of SPOT and a cranky triple crowner... :D
Back from a few days in NH. Ate way too much of mom's home cooking here in RI. :O
Lone Wolf
10-02-2008, 12:03
cells don't bother me. i'm thankful i can hear. being deaf can't be too fun. yak away cell users!
I understand that MP3 players may take away from the wilderness expeience. But when you are out hiking for days and weeks at a time, a little music can make the hiking a bit more enjoyable. I also seem to cover ground more quickly when listening to tunes.
Ziggy Trek
10-02-2008, 12:40
Nannyism is more disturbing and intrusive than any technologies that some may choose to lug into the wilderness. But that's just me.:rolleyes:
Pedaling Fool
10-02-2008, 12:54
Cell phones and MP3 players are no different than digital cameras. You would be hard pressed to find someone opposed to digital cameras, but all they are are a different combination of transistors. Its the people that use them, not the item itself.
As with invasive species some added are a plus to the environment and some are just there and benign and some are very destructive. Yes a camera is an invasive technology. However, I’m using an analogy here and like any analogy you can only take it so far. Invasive technologies don’t have much impact on the environment, as do invasive species; they impact something less tangible – our wilderness experience. So that means there’s no clear answer to how it affects, very subjective, you know how that goes. However, as more technologies make it to the market - just use your imagination - the impact will be greater and greater, regardless of your own subjective view point.
My point was not so much about our current invasive technologies, rather the onslaught I perceive as possible. And as already mentioned, advancements come very quickly. I can only imagine what the next invasive technology will be, and the next…
This is very cool technology that could make its way to the trail one day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hologram
superman
10-02-2008, 12:58
It is just darn amazing how far humankind managed to get without being connected 24/7 or diddle bopping down the bunny trail to noise in a can.
Sparky the communication officer ran up to Christopher Columbus and said "We've got to turn back now...we've lost cell phone reception...my god...we have zero bars...the horror.":D
It is just darn amazing how far humankind managed to get without being connected 24/7 or diddle bopping down the bunny trail to noise in a can.
Sparky the communication officer ran up to Christopher Columbus and said "We've got to turn back now...we've lost cell phone reception...my god...we have zero bars...the horror.":D
We now live in a world where instant gratification is what everyone wants and every toy out there they feel is needed and deserved.
Marketing is a wonderful thing, it has talked almost every adult that they are cruel or lacking if their kids (most 8-year olds have cell phones) don’t have a cell phone or a computer and an MP3 player with 1000 songs on it.
Most people really don’t need a cell phone on them all the time.
When out camping I can’t wait to turn the phone off. Being tied to it for my work, it’s very nice to not have to think about it once in a while when out in the wild.
I have trouble seeing a problem with cell phones. It all comes down to the user. You can be rude with any number of things, cell phone being one.
I saw a few people carrying laptops this year too. To each their own, not everyone is out on the AT for a big escape from everything that is modern life. As long as they dont other me, keep me awake at night I really don't care..
What I find interesting is many people step up to knock technology, yet most of the gear we use is highly commercialized materials. More and more of this ultra light gear is produced using a lot of the technological processes being shunned here.
superman
10-02-2008, 13:54
How about some of you tech folks come up with a code of etiquette
for your use of the contraptions. The electronics are a reality and an annoying reality for many. Since these are relatively new things they are seen to be outside of the old trail does and don’ts. I can’t do it because it would just be “you don’t need it, leave it home.” If this code of etiquette already exists many of the users aren't aware of it.
Cell phones and MP3 players are no different than digital cameras. You would be hard pressed to find someone opposed to digital cameras, but all they are are a different combination of transistors. Its the people that use them, not the item itself.
Wish it were so. But sadly, cell phones, and digital cameras have totally different impacts on the trail.
Those of us that seek a wild trail, are appalled by the near universal practice of carrying phones. A trail in which everyone must cope with emergencies on their own is different from a trail in which hikers know that probably everybody near by has the ability to call instantly for help when you run into difficulties.
A cell phone laden trail is a safer trail. But also a less wild trail. I don't go to trails seeking safety, I go to experience a little of the rare bit of wildness that remains in an over civilized world.
It's a psychological thing. But a real thing. Though I know that many can't understand what I'm talking about.
As for digital cameras, unlike cell phones, they in no way impact the basic nature of the trail. Among the joys of backpacking is the sense of independence from the artifacts of civilization. Carrying a digital camera is no more a handicap to wildness than does carrying a modern pack, or a down sleeping bag, or carrying a film camera, for that matter.
Weary
A cell phone laden trail is a safer trail. But also a less wild trail. I don't go to trails seeking safety, I go to experience a little of the rare bit of wildness that remains in an over civilized world.
Bill Bryson (one of your heroes :D) remarks somewhere that "the essential feature of [a thru-hike] is deprivation." He's onto something. Personally, I like to pick and choose my level of deprivation. And since I'm happily married, my wife's level of deprivation needs to be reckoned with, when I'm on an extended hike. A cell phone isn't a necessity, of course, but it makes the overall experience a bit more comfortable for both of us. She worries a bit less when she can hear from me regularly, and I enjoy chatting with her, after a heavy dose of solitude in the woods.
take-a-knee
10-02-2008, 14:55
Wish it were so. But sadly, cell phones, and digital cameras have totally different impacts on the trail.
Those of us that seek a wild trail, are appalled by the near universal practice of carrying phones. A trail in which everyone must cope with emergencies on their own is different from a trail in which hikers know that probably everybody near by has the ability to call instantly for help when you run into difficulties.
A cell phone laden trail is a safer trail. But also a less wild trail. I don't go to trails seeking safety, I go to experience a little of the rare bit of wildness that remains in an over civilized world.
It's a psychological thing. But a real thing. Though I know that many can't understand what I'm talking about.
As for digital cameras, unlike cell phones, they in no way impact the basic nature of the trail. Among the joys of backpacking is the sense of independence from the artifacts of civilization. Carrying a digital camera is no more a handicap to wildness than does carrying a modern pack, or a down sleeping bag, or carrying a film camera, for that matter.
Weary
The AT has been getting "less wild" every year you've been alive, and it'll likely continue. Anyone who's ever been to Germany knows how the Germans love to walk, they have trails everywhere through the woods (in Bavaria anyway), nothing most of us would describe as a "wilderness experience" but accessible and available to all. That is the future for most of what we call backcountry in the east. Get over it, embrace it, and get busy trying to preserve what is still held in common in the US and state park/NF systems.
As for cell phones and MP3's, what the hell is any of it your business, if you don't like them, don't carry them. There are still lots of places (that don't have shelters and many don't have trails) where you'll not see a soul most of the year. Most of this is all about you shelter whores having your "wilderness experience" disturbed. GIVE ME A BREAK! STAY AWAY FROM SHELTERS AND YOU WON'T HEAR A ONE-SIDED CELL CONVERSATION!
GIVE ME A BREAK! STAY AWAY FROM SHELTERS AND YOU WON'T HEAR A ONE-SIDED CELL CONVERSATION!
Why do you suppose I'd restrict my cell-phone usage to shelters? :-?
take-a-knee
10-02-2008, 15:15
Why do you suppose I'd restrict my cell-phone usage to shelters? :-?
"I feel like I playin' cards with my brother's kids again."
If you happen to be walking with someone with a cell phone who continually answers it/uses it, and it bothers you, stop walking with him. If they are headed in the opposite direction on the trail, just how are they bothering you by talking on their phone? This is a shelter issue, and away from shelters it isn't an issue unless you are a self-centered, deluded-Walter Mitty/Daniel Boone wannabe.
Wish it were so. But sadly, cell phones, and digital cameras have totally different impacts on the trail.
Those of us that seek a wild trail, are appalled by the near universal practice of carrying phones. A trail in which everyone must cope with emergencies on their own is different from a trail in which hikers know that probably everybody near by has the ability to call instantly for help when you run into difficulties.
A cell phone laden trail is a safer trail. But also a less wild trail. I don't go to trails seeking safety, I go to experience a little of the rare bit of wildness that remains in an over civilized world.
It's a psychological thing. But a real thing. Though I know that many can't understand what I'm talking about.
As for digital cameras, unlike cell phones, they in no way impact the basic nature of the trail. Among the joys of backpacking is the sense of independence from the artifacts of civilization. Carrying a digital camera is no more a handicap to wildness than does carrying a modern pack, or a down sleeping bag, or carrying a film camera, for that matter.
Weary
Yes but by asking others not to bring something you impact their experience, much the way you are claiming they impact yours..
Maybe not everyone is out there for a rare bit of wildness, could be someone wants the challenge of backpacking 2000+ miles.
Homer&Marje
10-02-2008, 15:54
Listen to my Mp3 player while hiking. But I hang it right behind my head with the volume on medium, Only I can hear it (And not at all if I am breathing too hard) Reason being that I don't want to disturb anyone else, I do like to listen to music, although not the whole day, and it allows me to still hear everything around me.... Kinda like having your own theme music:D
With regards to cell phones, I carry mine, although I usually use it to check the time or for it's digital video and picture features. If I am solo I check in with the wife once a night so she knows I got where I planned.
If either of those are that hideous, I apologize in advance.
NICKTHEGREEK
10-02-2008, 16:20
cells don't bother me. i'm thankful i can hear. being deaf can't be too fun. yak away cell users!
Wisdom! Life w/o ever hearing John Coltrane (or your favorite) ever would be sad, having heard him then knowing you'll never hear him again would be far worse.
Serious thanks Wolf, I hope I'll remember that next time some real estate Muffy won't give the cell a rest at the next table. :cool:
fiddlehead
10-02-2008, 22:12
Cell phones are here to stay.
Mp3 players or some kind of similar music sharing/playing is here to stay.
I worry about something much worse than both: CCTV cameras.
My British friends tell me horror stories of the millions of these things they now have in tiny England.
They even now have speakers in some of them and someone watching live and if you do something like litter, they'll yell at you and tell you to pick it up.
Imagine the implications of this on the AT. You wanna see people stop staying in shelter's, just put them in.
LIhikers
10-02-2008, 22:26
I don't think it's about any one device or technology, it's more about change.
And the only thing we can be sure of is that there will always be change in liffe.
It boils down to how we use or manage that change.
I use a MP3 player occasionally, usually when I am having a tough time on a long uphill.
What's really annoying is when people arrive at the shelter and plug speakers into their MP3 player and force me to listen to their choice of music which is always something I don't like.
hopefulhiker
10-02-2008, 23:06
I carried a weather radio, for about a week and later an MP3 player during the Green tunnel. I gave it up once I got to Maryland, no cell phone though... i mostly listened to audio books..
Wise Old Owl
10-02-2008, 23:11
Too Funny, here we are arguing about cell phone usage in shelters, and MP3 on the trail, etc....
When civilization encroachment impinges on the trail and the only route is to walk parallel with the highway.. Now that really sucks.
take-a-knee
10-02-2008, 23:40
Too Funny, here we are arguing about cell phone usage in shelters, and MP3 on the trail, etc....
When civilization encroachment impinges on the trail and the only route is to walk parallel with the highway.. Now that really sucks.
BS, just keep it a nice 2-lane, with a bike lane, and then move the trail up on the ridge. The AT is, for the most part, a woodland trail, not the Oregon Trail. Don't try to make it something it isn't, just be glad we have what we have, enjoy it and support it.
Christus Cowboy
10-03-2008, 00:02
I don't think it's about any one device or technology, it's more about change. And the only thing we can be sure of is that there will always be change in liffe. It boils down to how we use or manage that change.
This one of the general points that I was trying to make (maybe not very well) when I stated that some technology can magnify obnoxious behavior. Some people handle change better than others, some people balance the use of techology in the wilderness better than others.... It is generally a question of maturity I guess. Of course change itself is not always bad however, and as stated in numerous posts it's the individual's use of the technology that poses many of the problems. I should also state for the record that I do own a cellphone, digital camera, and other devices as well.....and yes I have taken a cellphone in the backcountry which use to keep up with the time and use in emergencies... but I wonder why because I generally keep it turned off and don't use it....
But there's something to be said of a backcountry where individuals can reflect and seek renewal. I take teenagers out frequently to the backcountry and I am always amused at their reaction when their cellphone stops working and they can no longer text message their friends about the benefits of dying one's hair pink. At first, they start suffering withdrawal symptoms from the electronic fog that marks their existence and a funny thing starts to happen.... they start to reflect and appreciate some of life's simplicities, they start to see the value in taking a break from the electronic fog and by the end of the trail they see where the temporary denial made them appreciate those conveniences in life such as the technology that we discussing in this thread. By the end of the trail they are asking me when they can go on the next trip and generally leave the cellphones behind much to the horror of their parents but that's entirely different thread.......
The AT has been getting "less wild" every year you've been alive, and it'll likely continue. Anyone who's ever been to Germany knows how the Germans love to walk, they have trails everywhere through the woods (in Bavaria anyway), nothing most of us would describe as a "wilderness experience" but accessible and available to all. That is the future for most of what we call backcountry in the east. Get over it, embrace it, and get busy trying to preserve what is still held in common in the US and state park/NF systems.
As for cell phones and MP3's, what the hell is any of it your business, if you don't like them, don't carry them. There are still lots of places (that don't have shelters and many don't have trails) where you'll not see a soul most of the year. Most of this is all about you shelter whores having your "wilderness experience" disturbed. GIVE ME A BREAK! STAY AWAY FROM SHELTERS AND YOU WON'T HEAR A ONE-SIDED CELL CONVERSATION!
What a bunch of crap. Maybe I'm misreading this, but are you saying it's now a persons right to be a rude jerk. Somehow the shelter ethics and manners has to be controlled by a-holes who don't have the courtesy to walk away from a shelter or other people when they use thier phone?
It ain't the music box or cell phone or laptop that is a problem. The problem is the way and manner they are used. Common courtesy goes a long way. Unfortunatley there are just alot of folks out there with very little or no character, class or upbringing.
Tipi Walter
10-03-2008, 06:49
Gadgets are gadgets, you have to carry them and their batteries just like a book or some candles. Hump what you want. The worst gadget invasion I ever saw was a group of 12 hunters with 18 dogs all walking in a row on a trail in the Citico Wilderness and each guy had a radio antenna with a GPS homing device. Pathetic. The local boys sure hate to backpack but they love using their wired-in dogs.
Most of the places I backpack do not have cellphone coverage, so I guess I'm one of the lucky few. If the AT gets complete cell coverage then I pity the backpackers always tethered and in reach of the still warm teat of Sypilization.
Superman had a good post on Columbus and I agree. How did Lewis and Clark ever make it across the country without a cellphone or a SPOT? As for me, I take a digital camera and a little pocket radio with headphones AND a cellphone cuz occasionally I'm atop an open bald and can check in with family members for any emergencies. This is why I got the phone to begin with, in case something happens at home and I need to return.
Homer&Marje
10-03-2008, 07:25
What a bunch of crap. Maybe I'm misreading this, but are you saying it's now a persons right to be a rude jerk. Somehow the shelter ethics and manners has to be controlled by a-holes who don't have the courtesy to walk away from a shelter or other people when they use thier phone?
It ain't the music box or cell phone or laptop that is a problem. The problem is the way and manner they are used. Common courtesy goes a long way. Unfortunatley there are just alot of folks out there with very little or no character, class or upbringing.
thats the one. well spoken.
Homer&Marje
10-03-2008, 07:29
Gadgets are gadgets, you have to carry them and their batteries just like a book or some candles. Hump what you want. The worst gadget invasion I ever saw was a group of 12 hunters with 18 dogs all walking in a row on a trail in the Citico Wilderness and each guy had a radio antenna with a GPS homing device. Pathetic. The local boys sure hate to backpack but they love using their wired-in dogs.
Most of the places I backpack do not have cellphone coverage, so I guess I'm one of the lucky few. If the AT gets complete cell coverage then I pity the backpackers always tethered and in reach of the still warm teat of Sypilization.
Superman had a good post on Columbus and I agree. How did Lewis and Clark ever make it across the country without a cellphone or a SPOT? As for me, I take a digital camera and a little pocket radio with headphones AND a cellphone cuz occasionally I'm atop an open bald and can check in with family members for any emergencies. This is why I got the phone to begin with, in case something happens at home and I need to return.
I should have read this before posting before. I agree with you in many ways... I am actually glad when my cell phone doesn't get reception...makes me feel farther from the world.
I do have to somewhat disagree. I think Columbus and all the other early explorers did just fine without cell phones, and could do it again. Because they did not have the technology. But in an age where so many technological advances were being brought in (similar to today) even the simplest things back then were considered "Witchcraft to the World"
I think the hypothetical would have been, would they have taken a cell phone if they had them? I think after they got over the sheer amazement of the R-Kelly ringtone... probably:D
Hoop Time
10-03-2008, 07:42
"When someone asks 'How can I reach you' I thoroughly enjoy saying 'You can't, I'll be fishing.' I'm still waiting for Americans to realize that being in constant communication is not an advantage, but a short leash. Cell phones have changed us from a nation of self-reliant pioneer types into a bunch of men standing alone in supermarkets saying 'Okay, I'm in the tampon aisle, but I don't see it." -- John Gierach
May favorite fishing/camping spot is in a deep valley where there is absolutely no cell signal. We have a system worked out where the wife/kids know the code if I call collect from the nearest pay phone to check in and let them know I am OK at night when I get off the stream. But I have no more use for a cell phone than I do for a watch when I am out there.
That said, I usually do carry my cell when I hike. But it is not turned on, and I would only use it in an emergency. The problem, to me, with cell phones, is that they allow others to bother me precisely when I am trying to get away from it all.
As for Ipods, I like to hear the sounds of nature. My only big complaint about my house is that I can't leave windows open or sit outside without hearing the constant drone of a nearby highway. One of my favorite things when I am out in the woods is to be in a spot where I can't hear any manmade sound. I love to just stop, close my eyes, and listen to "nothing." Few things relax me more.
So I would not be likely to hike with the Ipod on, but I do enjoy some music around the campfire at night, and I can see how some who are on the trail for days on end might want the music to help them get going some days.
Seems it all goes back to HYOH, which includes making sure your hike doesn't have a negative impact on mine. Have your cell conversation away from others if you need to make a call. Keep it on silent, or turned off when it's not in use, and you won't impact anybody else.
Lone Wolf
10-03-2008, 08:09
What a bunch of crap. Maybe I'm misreading this, but are you saying it's now a persons right to be a rude jerk. Somehow the shelter ethics and manners has to be controlled by a-holes who don't have the courtesy to walk away from a shelter or other people when they use thier phone?
if one is foolish enuf to stay in a cramped shelter or hostel then one must put up with all kinds of nonsense. after all there's millions of acres to camp. no need to flock to one area
superman
10-03-2008, 08:27
We need a code of conduct for the use of electronic devices on the trail. The things will be on the trail and those who bring them should know how to use them on the AT according to some rules of etiquette.
Lone Wolf
10-03-2008, 08:29
We need a code of conduct for the use of electronic devices on the trail. The things will be on the trail and those who bring them should know how to use them on the AT according to some rules of etiquette.
hikers can't follow rules in town what makes you think they will in the woods
superman
10-03-2008, 08:37
hikers can't follow rules in town what makes you think they will in the woods
Your right, it would be the same ones who do stupid things in town that wouldn't care about any code for electronic use on the AT. I was trying to be optimistic that for those who didn't know what was acceptable that a code of conduct would give them something to guide their electronic use on.
Well, it's time to get on with the day.
The AT has been getting "less wild" every year you've been alive, and it'll likely continue. Anyone who's ever been to Germany knows how the Germans love to walk, they have trails everywhere through the woods (in Bavaria anyway), nothing most of us would describe as a "wilderness experience" but accessible and available to all. That is the future for most of what we call backcountry in the east. Get over it, embrace it, and get busy trying to preserve what is still held in common in the US and state park/NF systems.
As for cell phones and MP3's, what the hell is any of it your business, if you don't like them, don't carry them. There are still lots of places (that don't have shelters and many don't have trails) where you'll not see a soul most of the year. Most of this is all about you shelter whores having your "wilderness experience" disturbed. GIVE ME A BREAK! STAY AWAY FROM SHELTERS AND YOU WON'T HEAR A ONE-SIDED CELL CONVERSATION!
Hmmm. Let's see. I've been busy for years "trying to preserve" the trail and its environs. Two or us founded the Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust 5 or 6 years ago, and bought a mountain that abutts the trail and are now working to preserve the other undeveloped mountains in the "High Peaks" region near Saddleback.
As for cell phones, it's my opinion that the presence of devices that enable instant access for help, diminishes the sense of wildness that a few still go to wild places to experience.
I have never advocated banning the phones. Just expressing a fact -- well a fact for me, and at least one or two others that I've heard from over the years.
However, if you want an easy way to help preserving the trail, let me suggest you open www.matlt.org.
Weary
We need a code of conduct for the use of electronic devices on the trail. The things will be on the trail and those who bring them should know how to use them on the AT according to some rules of etiquette.
Codes of conduct are for suckas! :D:D:D
Seriously, do we really need more people out of touch with reality making rules and expect everyone else to adhere to them... i think not.
We all should HYOH and stop telling people how to hike theirs. We have this thing in America called the Constitution, and while we don't always like some to things it lets people do, it is what this nation was built on. I can deal with someone wanting to use a cell in the woods... its people talking or texting on I-85 that really pisses me off. Anyhoo, i like to have at least one cell in the group for emergencies. As for an MP3 player, I really do not have much use for one on the trail. In cube land, its a whole different story. Of course wind in the trees sounds a helluva lot better than people bitchin' b/c someone drank the last cup of coffee and did not make more.
Gotta run, I hear the boss coming.
middle to middle
10-03-2008, 12:00
The Green Tunnel may be Green but the air waves are clear and colorless. I recall making camp just off the trail on the down mountain side. Further down the slope in the flat lands I could hear dishes being washed in a kitchen, a radio playing in a house, a baseball game being played in a park, and a competing radio in another house.
I know a bad place to stop. The spring was there, I was tired and hungry and lonely when I heard all the sounds of civilization. I have always resisted the urge to go to town unless necessary for supplies. We are tough us hikers.
Tom
middle to middle
10-03-2008, 12:06
You know the noise barriers along the beltways in cities ? Some day the AT may have them with little doors you have to go through to get to a town. Scares me and I am fearless.
Tom
superman
10-03-2008, 12:07
Codes of conduct are for suckas! :D:D:D
Seriously, do we really need more people out of touch with reality making rules and expect everyone else to adhere to them... i think not.
We all should HYOH and stop telling people how to hike theirs. We have this thing in America called the Constitution, and while we don't always like some to things it lets people do, it is what this nation was built on. I can deal with someone wanting to use a cell in the woods... its people talking or texting on I-85 that really pisses me off. Anyhoo, i like to have at least one cell in the group for emergencies. As for an MP3 player, I really do not have much use for one on the trail. In cube land, its a whole different story. Of course wind in the trees sounds a helluva lot better than people bitchin' b/c someone drank the last cup of coffee and did not make more.
Gotta run, I hear the boss coming.
OK, I'll put you down as a maybe for the Code Committee. :D:D
Ziggy Trek
10-03-2008, 12:21
Cell phones, Pot, weapons for self protection -- Don't ask, don't tell
take-a-knee
10-03-2008, 13:01
Hmmm. Let's see. I've been busy for years "trying to preserve" the trail and its environs. Two or us founded the Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust 5 or 6 years ago, and bought a mountain that abutts the trail and are now working to preserve the other undeveloped mountains in the "High Peaks" region near Saddleback.
As for cell phones, it's my opinion that the presence of devices that enable instant access for help, diminishes the sense of wildness that a few still go to wild places to experience.
I have never advocated banning the phones. Just expressing a fact -- well a fact for me, and at least one or two others that I've heard from over the years.
However, if you want an easy way to help preserving the trail, let me suggest you open www.matlt.org (http://www.matlt.org).
Weary
Then quit complaining Weary, and take up skydiving if you need more danger in your life, cause AT hiking ain't very dangerous for the properly prepared. Oh, and kudos to you for your preservation efforts.
My whole point with this rant is let's not make the AT out to be something it isn't, let's just enjoy it and be thankful we have it.
OK, I'll put you down as a maybe for the Code Committee. :D:D
Glad you could tell I was being a smarta$$. I just wish there was a sarcastic smiley.... until then let the banana dance...:banana
My whole point with this rant is let's not make the AT out to be something it isn't, let's just enjoy it and be thankful we have it.
When people ignore traditions and codes of ethics used by previous hikers on the AT, they change the AT experience. When you define the AT as it is today, you fail to undrstand the impact of what becomes "acceptable" on the trail. When you demand that you have the "right" to make these changes and ignore these traditions and ethics, you have made a decision that my rights and other peoples rights are not important, or at least as important as yours. It shows a complete lack of respect and sefishness that according to my code, may deserve an a--kicking.
Those who have hiked the AT for a few or many decades know what it used to be and see what it has become. We all have to adapt and change and learn to live with things we may not like, but we do not have to lower our standards of decency, ethics and the nature of our of behavior just because someone has decided to ignore the wisdom and common sense teachings of previous generations. A jerk is a jerk and only the jerk can cure his own jerkiness, however I have noticed over the years that nothing cures a jerk like a good old fashioned a--whoopin', or stealthy payback.
Nannyism is more disturbing and intrusive than any technologies that some may choose to lug into the wilderness. But that's just me.:rolleyes:
I would argue that PLBs, SPOT, 24/7 communication etc will make nannyism worse!
I am all for HYOH..what happens when your hike imposes upon others?
If I am hearing some of you correctly, you really don't care?
My big fear is not that you are connected...it is that society will expect and demand that we all be connected. Culturally, it is happening now.
But, you all enjoy your nanny state. Know you can be reached at all times. The government and society will pat you on the head for being a good boy. ;)
Also was able to enjoy some local hikes in my former neck of the woods. Did not see a soul for 2 hrs. Not bad for the 2nd most crowded state in the country.
I suspect where I hiked would be less wild if I was yakking on a phone for two hours. :)
Enough for now..off to eat some braciole and stuffed peppers for a late lunch.
Then quit complaining Weary, and take up skydiving if you need more danger in your life, cause AT hiking ain't very dangerous for the properly prepared. Oh, and kudos to you for your preservation efforts.
My whole point with this rant is let's not make the AT out to be something it isn't, let's just enjoy it and be thankful we have it.
I remember when every fireplace had its own can dump a few feet away. When we tried to stop this practice in the 60s and early 70s, we were confronted with what was the then version of HYOH. I spoke to one "conservation" group in 1973 about the can dumps.
The response was unanimous: "What do you expect us to do with the trash? The nearest dump is 100 miles away."
Gradually, that has become the minority view. There's a new litter these days, the trash of cell phone chatter and electronic music.
I like to think that if we complain enough, a new trail ethic may emerge. It's a test. Are we less able to understand and change, than the generation of four decades ago? Stay tuned.
Weary www.matlt.org
I remember when every fireplace had its own can dump a few feet away. When we tried to stop this practice in the 60s and early 70s, we were confronted with what was the then version of HYOH. I spoke to one "conservation" group in 1973 about the can dumps.
The response was unanimous: "What do you expect us to do with the trash? The nearest dump is 100 miles away."
Gradually, that has become the minority view. There's a new litter these days, the trash of cell phone chatter and electronic music.
I like to think that if we complain enough, a new trail ethic may emerge. It's a test. Are we less able to understand and change, than the generation of four decades ago? Stay tuned.
Weary www.matlt.org (http://www.matlt.org)
Some of us don't consider music or communication devices garbage. I am still not sure I see the harm of my text messaging my girl friend at night from my tent. Or using an MP3 player to drown out the snoring of others in shelters.
I am happy to hear you managed to help change peoples views on real trash on the trail, that is a good thing. However to equate trash with a device others find useful is silly. You are imposing your idea of right and wrong on someone else. In this case the electronic device itself does not harm the trail or the experience of anyone, including you. The user (yes, yapping away loudly at a shelter) can, but that same user can ruin it many other ways if they are rude and inconsiderate.
I spent time with a blind guy this year who had a cell phone and a SPOT, there is nothing wrong with a safety net. For everyone here complaining, if something ever did happen and you were hurt, would you refuse help via a cell phone call ?
Good luck with your crusade against modern devices on the trail, I have a feeling you are not going to get too far with it.
Some of us don't consider music or communication devices garbage. I am still not sure I see the harm of my text messaging my girl friend at night from my tent. Or using an MP3 player to drown out the snoring of others in shelters.
I spent time with a blind guy this year who had a cell phone and a SPOT, there is nothing wrong with a safety net. For everyone here complaining, if something ever did happen and you were hurt, would you refuse help via a cell phone call ?
Good luck with your crusade against modern devices on the trail, I have a feeling you are not going to get too far with it.
I don't see a crusade to ban modern devices, rather, there appears to be an effort by some to point out how these devices can be used in such a way as to be rude at the least, and to have a serious negative impact on an individuals experience on the trail at worst. Texting in your own tent is not the problem, nor is listening to music with headphones.
take-a-knee
10-03-2008, 20:17
When people ignore traditions and codes of ethics used by previous hikers on the AT, they change the AT experience. When you define the AT as it is today, you fail to undrstand the impact of what becomes "acceptable" on the trail. When you demand that you have the "right" to make these changes and ignore these traditions and ethics, you have made a decision that my rights and other peoples rights are not important, or at least as important as yours. It shows a complete lack of respect and sefishness that according to my code, may deserve an a--kicking.
Those who have hiked the AT for a few or many decades know what it used to be and see what it has become. We all have to adapt and change and learn to live with things we may not like, but we do not have to lower our standards of decency, ethics and the nature of our of behavior just because someone has decided to ignore the wisdom and common sense teachings of previous generations. A jerk is a jerk and only the jerk can cure his own jerkiness, however I have noticed over the years that nothing cures a jerk like a good old fashioned a--whoopin', or stealthy payback.
--SNIP- Take the political statements and Internet tough guy act else where...
As for the "AT experience" whatever that is, just mind your own damn business and enjoy the trail, and be thankful you have a life and a trail, and you'll have a much better "experience".
fiddlehead
10-03-2008, 20:55
Ah, I see TAK is working on his friend's list again. Good luck with that.
Weary, as usual has thoughtful opinions and they make one think about the history and future of the trail. Thanks.
Mags, as usual, i agree with you. I see a need of phone ethics in so many places in the world anymore. I believe it will happen, but will take time.
Who likes it when you are in a line somewhere and the person in front of you gets a phone call and starts telling stories and ignoring the people waiting for them or you are having a discussion at a table full of people, and one of them gets a call and starts talking very loudly into the phone so that other's can't even hear themselves anymore.
These people either don't know they are disrupting too many others or, certainly need to be told.
Cell phone users need to walk away from others. If not, they need to be told about it.
I see little difference in this pollution than the obvious disposing of your trash at shelters. It used to be the norm. It has been stopped (usually). Good analogy Weary.
Take a Knee, Take a Hike. Chill out on the yankee go home attitude and learn to get along with people, aye?
Some of us don't consider music or communication devices garbage. I am still not sure I see the harm of my text messaging my girl friend at night from my tent. Or using an MP3 player to drown out the snoring of others in shelters.
I am happy to hear you managed to help change peoples views on real trash on the trail, that is a good thing. However to equate trash with a device others find useful is silly. You are imposing your idea of right and wrong on someone else. In this case the electronic device itself does not harm the trail or the experience of anyone, including you. The user (yes, yapping away loudly at a shelter) can, but that same user can ruin it many other ways if they are rude and inconsiderate.
I spent time with a blind guy this year who had a cell phone and a SPOT, there is nothing wrong with a safety net. For everyone here complaining, if something ever did happen and you were hurt, would you refuse help via a cell phone call ?
Good luck with your crusade against modern devices on the trail, I have a feeling you are not going to get too far with it.
I can relate to that view. I heard it many times in the past. No one equated a can dump with damage to the trail or any damage to anyone else, Most agreed that, "Afterall, they said, it was only a tiny campsite on miles of trail. An occasional campsite among miles of a wild river. The rivers and trail remained wild, they said. And believed it. I didn't. I still don't.
Nor do I expect a chorus of agreement with my views. But I sense that an increasing few will eventually speak. Truly there is nothing like an increasingly few to change practices. Anyway, I keep trying to encourage buffers to an endangered trail, now mostly owned by developers,, and to encourage rational restraint when using invasive devices on a wild trail, or a wild river.
Weary
Maybe I am in a minority, but I was thinking about fiddlehead's post and it made me consider a few things relative to cellphones and my everyday life.
I first considered the impact of someone talking on a cellphone while being serviced at the checkout at a grocery store. That, to me is the epitome of rudeness. That led me to the problem of folks on the cellphone while driving. While some can pull this off, most seem to be distracted to the point where the surrounding cars are being unnecessarily subjected to someones negligence. These are just a couple of examples of people being selfish and inconsiderate of others.
That leads to a quandary in regards to the device itself. Hell, it ain't even a quandary. Pure and simple, the device is not the problem at all. The use of it is. I'm not a fan of movies and I have not spent much time in church lately, but cellphone use is most likely frowned upon in either location. If it was necessary to utilize the phone in either place, I imagine folks would excuse themselves to take care of that. Why would anywhere in the woods be any different, if not far more easy to pull off. The electronic devices are not going to magically disappear but with a little consideration and respect, the use of such devices would have little to no impact on any fellow traveler. That is and will be the reality from this point forward.
I carry a cellphone in my backpack. It stays powered off. I don't get it out in "public". No other hiker I encounter knows I have it. I like it that way and I can't see how that would be troublesome to anyone. I would say that the same could be said for an MP3 player or radio providing that the sound coming from either is strictly controlled. These things seem easy and obvious to me.
I'm sure that some feel that those devices have no business being in my pack. I'm also sure that some feel that they can utilize their devices any way they want and could care less who hears them, after all, those folks can walk away, or camp else where.
I think that with little consideration and respect, this issue could become the molehill that seems to be, and is, growing into a mountain.
Well, unfortunantly it ain't worth the fuel for me to come to Delaware so's you can kick my a$$, not that I'd want to come to Delaware anyway. Did Joe Biden teach you to be a rude SOB? I guess you are an FDR fan also.
The AT is what it is, at least to the realistic non-morons among us.
As for demands, it is you "head up your 4th point of contact types" who want to demand that others comport to whatever idiotic standard you dream up. I couldn't give a rat's a$$ whether someone listens to an MP3 or carries a cell. That is his business, that is hard for a lot of yankee, meddling busybodies to come to grips with, I know, but you'd really be a lot better off for it.
As for the "AT experience" whatever that is, just mind your own damn business and enjoy the trail, and be thankful you have a life and a trail, and you'll have a much better "experience".
Never said a person doesn't have the right to carry these devices
, I carry them myself. Don't care if you carry laptop and watch movies at night, It's not my business, at least not if it has no impact on me and my space and my environment. But once you make another person uncomfortable with what you are doing in a shared space and environment, and a person lets you know in a polite way that they are uncomfortable with your activity, you have to make a decision. Sounds like you took my comment about jerks personal, like that shoe fit, sorry 'bout that, I was not talking to you directly to you, rather jerks in general and how they can be dealt with.
As for the "At experience" that seems to leave you mystified and to be beyond your ability to understand, I'm sorry for that.
It is not the device that is the problem....it's the people. More and more, our society is becoming more selfish and less considerate of others. It seems to be the way we are raised. A song comes to mind and we should all listen to the lyrics. It's the "Dickhead Song". I don't know who wrote it, but Jimmy Buffett sings a version of it and I think Todd Snider does too. One line of the song goes something like this:
He's just a ****ing dickhead.
He's been one all his life.
If he ever gets married
He'll be a dickhead with a wife.
That being said, I don't think that it is technology that is the problem. It's not the cell phone, the MP3, the stove we use, whether we hang, tarp or tent. It's not how extremely lite our pack is. All of these can be a great tool and bring us pleasure as an individual if used properly and considerately. It is however a plain and simple fact....some people are just dickheads.
take-a-knee
10-04-2008, 12:22
It is not the device that is the problem....it's the people. More and more, our society is becoming more selfish and less considerate of others. It seems to be the way we are raised. A song comes to mind and we should all listen to the lyrics. It's the "Dickhead Song". I don't know who wrote it, but Jimmy Buffett sings a version of it and I think Todd Snider does too. One line of the song goes something like this:
He's just a ****ing dickhead.
He's been one all his life.
If he ever gets married
He'll be a dickhead with a wife.
That being said, I don't think that it is technology that is the problem. It's not the cell phone, the MP3, the stove we use, whether we hang, tarp or tent. It's not how extremely lite our pack is. All of these can be a great tool and bring us pleasure as an individual if used properly and considerately. It is however a plain and simple fact....some people are just dickheads.
We are all dickheads, more or less, some quite a bit more than others. A dickhead is simply a selfish person, that is the natural human condition. Even those who desire to suppress such selfish urges secretly look up to the full-blown dickheads. IE, who would most people rather trade lives with, Donald Trump or Mother Teresa?
--More poltical drivel snippage --
Some dickheads are rude and have loud cell chats at shelters, other dickheads get exercised about it. Sounds like two sides of the same coin to me.
"If there is no God, all things are permissable" Dostoyevski
Sheesh....
I thought I'd check my e-mail real quick to confirm my flight info back to Colorado. And I see my in-box with a few "Political remark statements".
Since I am going to be away from e-mail until Tues:
PLEASE CAN THE POLITICAL CRAP!
And to those who lodged complaints:
WE HAVE A G-D LIFE OUTSIDE OF WHITE BLAZE! HOLD YOUR FRIGGIN HORSES! I AM NOT ON THE COMPUTER 24/7! I AM VISITING THE FAMILY!
To paraphrase the words of William Shatner: People, it's just a BBS. Get a life!
If I can manage to squeeze in local hikes (http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/component/option,com_gallery2/Itemid,36/?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=18454)while vitising in Rhode Island, surely those of you at home can enjoy this nice fall weather too. :)
Go out. Hike. Enjoy yourself.
saimyoji
10-04-2008, 16:27
And of course, don't dare to mention the creator of us all (and the earth, universe , AT, adinfinitum), unless of course you'd like to take his name in vain, right Mags?
I know i've been touched by his noodly appendage. All hail the FSM. :dance
Then quit complaining Weary, and take up skydiving if you need more danger in your life,.....
The I've jumped out of planes, hear me roar, routine is getting old. :rolleyes:
What a bunch of crap. Maybe I'm misreading this, but are you saying it's now a persons right to be a rude jerk. Somehow the shelter ethics and manners has to be controlled by a-holes who don't have the courtesy to walk away from a shelter or other people when they use thier phone?Do you maintain strict silence in a shelter? If you need to ask someone a question, do you take him aside so your conversation doesn't bother those in the shelter? If not, then have you ever considered that you might be of those "a-holes who don't have the courtesy to walk away from a shelter or other people"?
It's just a conversation, dude. Don't get all bent out of shape because a guy is talking out loud. People talk out loud in shelters all the time. At least when a guy is using a cell phone I am only forced to hear one side of the conversation, half as much talking.
This is all crazy talk, anyway, complaining about new technology. Who here hasn't used aluminum or titanium cookpots, or a stove, or synthetic clothing. The claim someone made that cell phones change the basic wildness of the trail but that all the new gear developments don't is simple the whining of someone who can only see one view - his own. He does not insist that people wear animal skins and sleep in blowdowns because he likes fabric and synthetic and plastic and etc etc so they are okay. He doesn't use cell phones so they are not.
Someone said it: cell phones are here to stay, and whining that they make hiking less wild is like the guy who whines about GPSs but uses a compass. Just different levels of technology, that's all.
--SNIP- Take the political statements and Internet tough guy act else where...Thanks. :)
Dances with Mice
10-04-2008, 19:42
The I've jumped out of planes, hear me roar, routine is getting old. Yeah. I'd like to say I've jumped out of a perfectly good airplane but I haven't.
It was a C-130.
If we want to go back to the good 'ol days we'd all be wearing pith helmets. But that ithn't going to happen.
take-a-knee
10-04-2008, 20:31
Do you maintain strict silence in a shelter? If you need to ask someone a question, do you take him aside so your conversation doesn't bother those in the shelter? If not, then have you ever considered that you might be of those "a-holes who don't have the courtesy to walk away from a shelter or other people"?
It's just a conversation, dude. Don't get all bent out of shape because a guy is talking out loud. People talk out loud in shelters all the time. At least when a guy is using a cell phone I am only forced to hear one side of the conversation, half as much talking.
This is all crazy talk, anyway, complaining about new technology. Who here hasn't used aluminum or titanium cookpots, or a stove, or synthetic clothing. The claim someone made that cell phones change the basic wildness of the trail but that all the new gear developments don't is simple the whining of someone who can only see one view - his own. He does not insist that people wear animal skins and sleep in blowdowns because he likes fabric and synthetic and plastic and etc etc so they are okay. He doesn't use cell phones so they are not.
Someone said it: cell phones are here to stay, and whining that they make hiking less wild is like the guy who whines about GPSs but uses a compass. Just different levels of technology, that's all.
Well stated. Thanks, I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw this issue that way. I think someone called it, "Live and let live".
....This is all crazy talk, anyway, complaining about new technology. Who here hasn't used aluminum or titanium cookpots, or a stove, or synthetic clothing. The claim someone made that cell phones change the basic wildness of the trail but that all the new gear developments don't is simple the whining of someone who can only see one view - his own. He does not insist that people wear animal skins and sleep in blowdowns because he likes fabric and synthetic and plastic and etc etc so they are okay. He doesn't use cell phones so they are not.
Someone said it: cell phones are here to stay, and whining that they make hiking less wild is like the guy who whines about GPSs but uses a compass. Just different levels of technology, that's all.
Ah, Another who doesn't understand. Just as few could understand our diatribes about litter, and can dumps. Don't be discouraged. They will come around, maybe.
Weary
Ah, Another who doesn't understand. Just as few could understand our diatribes about litter, and can dumps. Don't be discouraged. They will come around, maybe.
Weary
I don't see how you can compare the two. You keep bringing up litter and can dumps, like somehow it relates in some way to someone carrying a cell phone and or an mp3 player.
Litter has a near permanent impact on the area, the cell phone has zero impact on the area.
Anyway, I was out on trail for good long time this year. Met a lot of people. Stayed at many shelters and cell phones were never an issue. The few times I saw one actually used for a voice call, the person usually got up to get privacy. Nor did I see anyone complain about those that stepped away to make a call or sent text messages during dinner.
More often then not when someone saw I had a working cell, they asked to use it. Go figure.
Litter has a near permanent impact on the area, the cell phone has zero impact on the area.
What's the problem with litter if you can't see it? Why not put a can dump/trash pit 100 yards into the woods and forget about it? Along the AT only 1 in 1807 hikers wander that far off trail. Ever.
The ecosystem wont be affected in any measurable way, and volunteers' efforts can be employed in other pursuits than worrying about that sort of thing.
Think about it.
Of course if you think that simply having a mound of crap just out of view and not directly impacting anyone really isn't the way to go, then you might have to rethink some basic assumptions regarding phones and stuff on the Trail.
Lone Wolf
10-04-2008, 21:19
i used to bury my tuna cans. now i just burn the foil packs in the fire pits at shelters
If you have tuna for lunch, do you make sure to put the package under a rock when you are done with it?
Cell phone: each to their own. We took one for emergency. I was in a museum once and heard someone call to another person in the same musuem..hey, I am looking at sharks, what are you looking at? Wierd. But that shoule not affect me.
MP3; I have one now for airplanes. But I saw people with I-pods on the trail. I like 3 listening to the nature. However, we drove 4
sticks&stones
10-04-2008, 21:24
[quote=take-a-knee;705436]The AT has been getting "less wild" every year you've been alive, and it'll likely continue.
Thats actually not the case. I dont know how far back your involvment with the AT goes, but not to long ago a lot of the trail was on roads. In fact even maine had many road walks along its route. From my exspirence the AT has actully gotten more wild due to this change.
As far as cell phones go I could care less, I guess the only thing that bothers me about cells are there popularity amoung the masses has spawned many of those towers that are view spot eyesores along the trail.
What's the problem with litter if you can't see it? Why not put a can dump/trash pit 100 yards into the woods and forget about it? Along the AT only 1 in 1807 hikers wander that far off trail. Ever.
The ecosystem wont be affected in any measurable way, and volunteers' efforts can be employed in other pursuits than worrying about that sort of thing.
Think about it.
Of course if you think that simply having a mound of crap just out of view and not directly impacting anyone really isn't the way to go, then you might have to rethink some basic assumptions regarding phones and stuff on the Trail.
Uhh ok, Kinda feel like im in the twilight zone here or maybe im being screwed with.
How is a pile of garbage (on the trail or 100 yards off) anything like a cell phone in someone's pocket ?
One again, a cell phone that may or may not get seen or used at a shelter is nothing like a mound of crap that may or may not get seen. Im not sure I need to rethink any of my basic assumptions. I do think perhaps you and others making this ridiculous argument need to rethink live and let live..
If we want to go back to the good 'ol days we'd all be wearing pith helmets. But that ithn't going to happen.
How pithy!
i used to bury my tuna cans. now i just burn the foil packs in the fire pits at shelters
Aluminum foil is almost never burned at a shelter. It's possible. I've done it. But I've yet to see a shelter fire that I didn't nurture hot enough to do so. Lone Wolf. You are a litterer, as much as the rest of us. Like all of us. You are part of the problem.
Weary
Dances with Mice
10-04-2008, 22:02
How pithy!Pretty pith-poor, Mowg.
Weary, I do believe Mr. Wolf is pulling your hooter.
Uhh ok, Kinda feel like im in the twilight zone here or maybe im being screwed with.
How is a pile of garbage (on the trail or 100 yards off) anything like a cell phone in someone's pocket ?
One again, a cell phone that may or may not get seen or used at a shelter is nothing like a mound of crap that may or may not get seen. Im not sure I need to rethink any of my basic assumptions. I do think perhaps you and others making this ridiculous argument need to rethink live and let live..
I'm truly sorry that you can't understand. But the knowledge, that civilization is just a phone call, just a minute away, truly changes the trail. Until the cell phone revolution, safety had to await the first hiker, or your own efforts to reach safety. That is a dramatic change in the nature of the trail -- far more revolutionary than music devices, recorders, and digital cameras.
I don't expect to reverse the change. But I am appalled that so few people seem to appreciate the truth of the change.
Weary
Once something is invented, you can’t un-invent it.
Like guns, autos, camp stoves and millions of other things cell phones in one form or another are here to stay. Get use to it…
Once something is invented, you can’t un-invent it.
Like guns, autos, camp stoves and millions of other things cell phones in one form or another are here to stay. Get use to it…
I know like can dumps next to each fire place. What can one possibly do?
Weary
I know like can dumps next to each fire place. What can one possibly do?
Weary
Thats it, you've convinced me weary. From this day forward shall leave all my empty cans at the fire pits!
Originally Posted by Bob S http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=706381#post706381)
Once something is invented, you can’t un-invent it.
Like guns, autos, camp stoves and millions of other things cell phones in one form or another are here to stay. Get use to it…
I know like can dumps next to each fire place. What can one possibly do?
Weary
Weary you do more harm to your cause then good to adopt extreme (whacko) views by saying a person using a cell phone is polluting just as a person that leave garbage on the trail. People read your off based comments and dismiss what you say because they see you as a nut job. You may not be that way, but standing on this of my computer screen that’s what it looks like.
There seems to be no understanding on your part as to how cell phones and garbage left about are different.
Argue for no garbage on the trail.
Argue for reasonable cell phone use on the trail.
But compare both and say they are the same, you get dismissed as a nut job.
I’m sure you will have a comment to rationalize your view thinking it makes sense to others. But in truth it just reinforces their opinion. You want to make headway on the cell phone argument, argue their reasonable use, not that they are no different then trash thrown about.
Originally Posted by Bob S http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=706381#post706381)
Once something is invented, you can’t un-invent it.
Like guns, autos, camp stoves and millions of other things cell phones in one form or another are here to stay. Get use to it…
Weary you do more harm to your cause then good to adopt extreme (whacko) views by saying a person using a cell phone is polluting just as a person that leave garbage on the trail. People read your off based comments and dismiss what you say because they see you as a nut job. You may not be that way, but standing on this of my computer screen that’s what it looks like.
There seems to be no understanding on your part as to how cell phones and garbage left about are different.
Argue for no garbage on the trail.
Argue for reasonable cell phone use on the trail.
But compare both and say they are the same, you get dismissed as a nut job.
I’m sure you will have a comment to rationalize your view thinking it makes sense to others. But in truth it just reinforces their opinion. You want to make headway on the cell phone argument, argue their reasonable use, not that they are no different then trash thrown about.
I disagree. Weary makes some very good points, and tells people some unpleasant facts. IMO, the technology is just as intrusive as trash, only the cell phone litter can't be picked up. Weary has the perspective over time. You shouldn't be so dismissive. He has probably forgotten more about the AT than you know Bob. And I don't say that to insult. It's just a fact.
Then there is the issue of the signals that emit radiation. I think we're going to soon find out that there are tremendous health impacts associated with this intrusive technology. And no one has a choice about that.
PS: I worked for Verizon for 19 years. Dismiss away if you like.
fiddlehead
10-05-2008, 05:54
Originally Posted by Bob S http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=706381#post706381)
Once something is invented, you can’t un-invent it.
Like guns, autos, camp stoves and millions of other things cell phones in one form or another are here to stay. Get use to it…
Weary you do more harm to your cause then good to adopt extreme (whacko) views by saying a person using a cell phone is polluting just as a person that leave garbage on the trail. People read your off based comments and dismiss what you say because they see you as a nut job. You may not be that way, but standing on this of my computer screen that’s what it looks like.
There seems to be no understanding on your part as to how cell phones and garbage left about are different.
Argue for no garbage on the trail.
Argue for reasonable cell phone use on the trail.
But compare both and say they are the same, you get dismissed as a nut job.
I’m sure you will have a comment to rationalize your view thinking it makes sense to others. But in truth it just reinforces their opinion. You want to make headway on the cell phone argument, argue their reasonable use, not that they are no different then trash thrown about.
Weary makes valid points, unlike you Bob S. So who's the whacko here?
It's all pollution. be it noise or trash on the ground.
Sort of like the guys who like to drive the big Harley's with the straight pipes.
Hey, so, i was just sitting here writing this line above when my wife started screaming and I looked and there was a 2 meter snake right behind me in our house.
There is a backhoe outside digging and the snake apparantly was dug up, squirmed out of the bucket, and ran into my open front door with 2 construction workers chasing it and yelling.
We all ran around, the snake turned around, went out and took a fast run/squirm for the jungle nearby. Pretty amazing. never had a scared snake come to me for protection before.
The neighborhood all gathered to talk about it of course.
I took some pictures too.
Anyway, talk about invasive technology to a snake? A big backhoe.
I guess each species has their pollution. We're better off it being a cell phone than a backhoe 100 time bigger than us, aye?
Hey, so, i was just sitting here writing this line above when my wife started screaming and I looked and there was a 2 meter snake right behind me in our house.
There is a backhoe outside digging and the snake apparantly was dug up, squirmed out of the bucket, and ran into my open front door with 2 construction workers chasing it and yelling.
We all ran around, the snake turned around, went out and took a fast run/squirm for the jungle nearby. Pretty amazing. never had a scared snake come to me for protection before.
The neighborhood all gathered to talk about it of course.
I took some pictures too.
Anyway, talk about invasive technology to a snake? A big backhoe.
I guess each species has their pollution. We're better off it being a cell phone than a backhoe 100 time bigger than us, aye?
Soiled underwear guy? :D
Great story Fiddlehead. Was it a venomous snake?
I think my point about trash that will never be seen by hikers was lost. Perhaps it was never there in the first place. My bad, if that's the case.
My thought on that is that trash left in the backcountry really does matter, even if we never see it. Why? Because it spoils the wildness of the place and part of what we really value about it. Even if we never see the crap because its well hidden. Just knowing its there is enough.
I think phones are similar in that regard. Perhaps worse. Does that mean I want to ban your phone and will get all worked up if I see one? No. Not sure why I would even need to make that clarification, however. I just think their existence diminishes the sense of wildness found in the backcountry. Even if I never see one.
I hope I am allowed to think that. And I hope I am allowed to consider my values with regard to maintaining a sense of wildness when I hike off trail without my phone.
Others have made their choice about phones, and that's the American way. Good, practical choices I am sure. But isn't it obvious that they impact the senses of wildness when out backpacking. At least in some places, on some trips and some times of the year?
I took some pictures too.
Well lets see them! :banana
The Old Fhart
10-05-2008, 11:48
I believe it's unfair to single out one or two of the 'invasive technologies' and cast a blind eye to the blatant use of other invasive technologies that are almost universal. You have to add to this list of banned items:
-Goretex
-nylon
-polypro
-non-leather boots
-all stoves
-----ad infinitum:rolleyes:
I believe it's unfair to single out one or two of the 'invasive technologies' and cast a blind eye to the blatant use of other invasive technologies that are almost universal. You have to add to this list of banned items:
-Goretex
-nylon
-polypro
-non-leather boots
-all stoves
-----ad infinitum:rolleyes:
Some invasive technologies like cell phones, impact the nature of the trail, at least for discerning hikers, damaging their sense of remoteness and wildness. Others, like radios and music players, at least when used with discretion, only impact the person who uses them. Your list doesn't really qualify for either category.
Goretex is marginally useful on a winter hike. It's more expensive but no better than, and quite a bit heavier than traditional waterproof fabrics on a summer thru hike. Non leather boots are simply a balance between weight, longevity, and cost. Stoves are simply another way to use fire, if anything a way of using fire that has a lesser impact on the trail environment, as opposed to more traditional open fires.
Polypro alleged benefits are mostly advertising hype. I'm not sure what if anything nylon does, either for or against the trail. Nor would I call it particularly innovative. Nylon has been around almost as long as the trail has been.
Weary
Mr. Parkay
10-05-2008, 12:27
Personally, I like most forms of technology on the trail, including cell phones, as long as people are discreet about it.
A couple of years ago I was in a situation where I needed to use a cell phone to call an ambulance for someone who had a heart attack on the trail. Unfortunately, the person passed away too quickly for the phone call to help, however, if the circumstances were slightly different, it could have made the difference between life and death.
Anyhow, I just wish there was better reception on the trail!
The Old Fhart
10-05-2008, 13:51
Weary-"Some invasive technologies like cell phones, impact the nature of the trail, at least for discerning hikers, damaging their sense of remoteness and wildness. .......Your list doesn't really qualify for either category."Your 'discerning hikers' argument is the same as the pious old lady who wanted the Claude Rains movie "The Invisible Man" banned because he obviously had to be nude even though no one could see him.:D
In the rest of your post you actually agree with me (although you may not realize it). The simple point is that hikers equip themselves with what they feel will work best for them whether it be canvas tents and fire rings, or backpacking stoves and silnylon.
Backpacker magazine used your same argument to claim that hikers should choose earth-tone colors instead of the common bright colors for all their clothing/tents/etc., so as not to offend the sensitivities of other hikers.
You can draw the line anywhere you want to but unless someone is actually building a fire that fills a shelter with smoke, or someone uses a cell phone in that same shelter, it's your precieved problem not theirs.
Wise Old Owl
10-05-2008, 14:16
Stop targeting each other – not worth it.
I embrace the changes, the polypro, and the tech pants that are clearly better than blue jeans. But how does one take issue with cell phones? I remember the hazards of Nextel and the screaming speakers that could not be understood, and that has definitely gone away. I haven’t seen a contractor do that for months. If you see someone quietly talking to himself in the middle of the woods, how does that mess up your hike? MYOB and hike your own hike. Stop Whining.
Wise Old Owl
10-05-2008, 14:23
Cell phones are here to stay.
Mp3 players or some kind of similar music sharing/playing is here to stay.
I worry about something much worse than both: CCTV cameras.
My British friends tell me horror stories of the millions of these things they now have in tiny England.
They even now have speakers in some of them and someone watching live and if you do something like litter, they'll yell at you and tell you to pick it up.
Imagine the implications of this on the AT. You wanna see people stop staying in shelter's, just put them in.
Now that's a picture! That would be my idea of a invasive tech.
And Weary, Poly Pro is NOT advertizing hype, Poly Pro is based on something you might not be aware about. Forget UnderArmor for a moment. This is nylon that is spun finer than human hair. The fine & fuzzier material is held close to the skin to trap air to add a layer of skin protection. Persperation passes thru unlike cotton (which is better for summer arid areas) If it is worn too loose, it has no effect. A undershirt & leggings in Fall & Spring worn right can make a world of difference.
fiddlehead
10-05-2008, 14:28
Well lets see them! :banana
Ok, here's the best one. Sorry i didn't get one while it was in my living room, i was rather busy with getting it to change it's mind.
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg201/fiddleheadpa/zzsnake01.jpg
Wise Old Owl
10-05-2008, 14:39
Looks like a Black Racer, moved pretty fast didn't it?
fiddlehead
10-05-2008, 14:42
Polypro alleged benefits are mostly advertising hype.
Weary
Can't agree with this one Weary.
Obviously, you have not compared it to cotton.
I first heard of polypro's benefits in 1981 in the whitewater kayaking world.
Found out it makes a huge difference over the cotton i had been wearing (didn't know any better)
Later on, i found out it works great for hiking too.
Even later, i took up jogging. One winter day, i wore 2 layers of polypro, with one of cotton sandwiched in between. When i finished, the cotton was soaked with my sweat and both polypro layers were practically dry.
I'd like to know your experiences that show you that it is all hype.
Wise Old Owl
10-05-2008, 14:48
Yea what he said, I agree, A couple of years ago I was helping a group of scouts with a canoe trip downriver. The kid in the front "froze" in fear a couple of times and swamped the canoe due to lack of action. I was in Nylon head to foot including Solomon waterproof treking sneekers. Each time I felt warm & dry after 10-15 minutes on a summer day. Ultra dry after 45 minutes. Sure beats changing cotton. Some of the adults took a soak and wondered why I didn't get changed.
fiddlehead
10-05-2008, 14:49
Looks like a Black Racer, moved pretty fast didn't it?
Wasn't as black as black snakes in the states. More like dark grey with lines that you can see in the pic. around it.
They are fairly friendly snakes from what i've found out.
It moved pretty fast. There were 3 construction workers chasing it with sticks. All the neighbors had to come in and see the pictures.
My next door neighbor was a little bummed that it got away as he loves eating them.
Anyway, didn't want to hijack the thread but it did happen while i was typing my post above.
Can't agree with this one Weary.
Obviously, you have not compared it to cotton.
Maybe Weary is comparing the new stuff to wool, not cotton. Wool is still pretty good stuff.
dessertrat
10-05-2008, 15:52
Maybe Weary is comparing the new stuff to wool, not cotton. Wool is still pretty good stuff.
Yes, wool is still excellent. I take a real wool sweater with me oftentimes in place of a synthetic fleece, and I don't notice much difference, except the wool weighs just a bit more for the same warmth.
fiddlehead
10-05-2008, 16:07
Ok, you want to compare the two for hiking?
Which one is heavier? cost? drying time? bulky-ness?
You'll have a hard time convincing me that polypro is mostly hype or whatever his original quote was.
Ok, you want to compare the two for hiking?
Not really, but I happen to be wearing a Pendleton (wool) shirt as I write this. It's too nice to take hiking. Sometimes I bring an acrylic flannel shirt on my hikes. Wool as underwear (base layer) doesn't work for me. I mostly wear synthetics for hiking.
Homer&Marje
10-05-2008, 16:27
I guess it's a little off- topic by this point:D
Just got back from New Hampshire though, some guy trounced through our campsite last night talking on his cell phone.
Normally doesn't bother me, a lot of people have mentioned the "one sided conversation" Well, he had a nextel, or sprint, whatever it is now....So I got both extremely loud conversations with intermittent BEEP BEEPS to let me know which part I would hear. Heard the guy talking for about 10 minutes, 5 minutes before he ever showed up, and 5 minutes after he walked by.
Didn't bother me too much but it was pretty annoying.
I used to hate cell phone users.
Now I are one.
As with anything else, including religion and politics, use with concern for others around you.
Some may think that it makes "wilderness" feel safer.
I believe that it makes hiking the AT safer, not only for you, but for those you may come into contact with who need outside aid.
Agreed, a cell may be a crutch for the unprepared, but better the cell be a crutch than you.
I, personally, have no use for personal music devices, but I won't criticize those who do.
My opinions are not necessarily due to the use of my brain. :)
Wise Old Owl
10-05-2008, 19:22
I guess it's a little off- topic by this point:D
Just got back from New Hampshire though, some guy trounced through our campsite last night talking on his cell phone.
Normally doesn't bother me, a lot of people have mentioned the "one sided conversation" Well, he had a nextel, or sprint, whatever it is now....So I got both extremely loud conversations with intermittent BEEP BEEPS to let me know which part I would hear. Heard the guy talking for about 10 minutes, 5 minutes before he ever showed up, and 5 minutes after he walked by.
Didn't bother me too much but it was pretty annoying.
Yea that's what I mentioned on the previous page, But I haven't heard someone doing that in months since the new channel arrangement. He must have had an old phone.
Wise Old Owl
10-05-2008, 19:30
I used to hate cell phone users.
Now I are one.
As with anything else, including religion and politics, use with concern for others around you.
Some may think that it makes "wilderness" feel safer.
I believe that it makes hiking the AT safer, not only for you, but for those you may come into contact with who need outside aid.
Agreed, a cell may be a crutch for the unprepared, but better the cell be a crutch than you.
I, personally, have no use for personal music devices, but I won't criticize those who do.
My opinions are not necessarily due to the use of my brain. :)
Actually I think in a emergency situation a cell phone is a poor crutch, How do you tell people where you are after a couple of days hiking unless you have a GPS? or a new phone with it built in?- maybe we should make that a seperate thread.
Actually I think in a emergency situation a cell phone is a poor crutch, How do you tell people where you are after a couple of days hiking unless you have a GPS? or a new phone with it built in?- maybe we should make that a seperate thread.
A MAP,possibly??
fiddlehead
10-05-2008, 20:46
With that new google phone coming out at $179 with a built in GPS along with just about everything else, it won't be long before most hikers will have a gps whether they need one or not.
I guess for now it will only work on T-mobile but you can see the change coming.
We all like to have 2 or even 3 uses for any piece of gear but let's see, this new google phone can be used as: phone, camera, possible video camera (with open source available), GPS, internet access with full keyboard, journal (complete with pictures), alarm clock, calender, I imagine the guidebook can be downloaded to go in there as well as all the maps or at least a track to follow on the GPS, does it have a TV so you can watch the games on Sunday? probably not yet.
Yeah yeah, it's invasive but really it's only invasive when you allow people to interrupt your hike. If they can't be cool about your privacy, i say they must be told about it.
I wonder if they'll come out with a model that has a built in flashlight soon?
Ziggy Trek
10-05-2008, 21:05
I would argue that PLBs, SPOT, 24/7 communication etc will make nannyism worse!
I am all for HYOH..what happens when your hike imposes upon others?
If I am hearing some of you correctly, you really don't care?
My big fear is not that you are connected...it is that society will expect and demand that we all be connected. Culturally, it is happening now.
But, you all enjoy your nanny state. Know you can be reached at all times. The government and society will pat you on the head for being a good boy. ;)
Also was able to enjoy some local hikes in my former neck of the woods. Did not see a soul for 2 hrs. Not bad for the 2nd most crowded state in the country.
I suspect where I hiked would be less wild if I was yakking on a phone for two hours. :)
Enough for now..off to eat some braciole and stuffed peppers for a late lunch.
Sorry. Have no clue what you are saying, but it is either filled with contempt, passion or something I missed. I love the diversity of opinions!
Allow me to rephrase and expand. There are bigger issues than cell phones or plasma ray-guns. I respect other and HOPE they respect me. If they don't respect who cares. I doesn't ruin my day because I won't let it.
I have a HUGE family and circle of friends, acquaintances. I love being around folks OFF of the trail. However, for me, the trail is for solitude and to get away from society, culture, technology, "rules", etc. I hate shelters and usually go Southbound if practical.
The main reasons I avoid shelters and other hikers is that anything I might do may be imposing on others. I can't hike my own hike if I have to be worried and considerate of your experience. That's just they way I am. I snore. I like to fart whenever I feel like it, or pick my nose (only when absolutely necessary of course).
I like most of the hikers that I meet. But humans are humans.
The up-tight or legalism kind seem to feel that humans will change their hearts and minds if enough rules are made. They don't get it. They remain in a pack, huddled together in shelters, while whining like baby's and crying for Nanny to come and fix it. That ain't working so good down in the lowlands is it? God gave us the gift of free will. Churches, governments, and whiners try to take it away. Rules are only obeyed by those who probably don't need them in the first place. Fear or peer pressure is a failed, yet over-used, tactic. Love others unconditionally, take the good with the bad. Develop a thick hide.
That's all I'm saying. If you have contempt for those that don't think and act like you, simply avoid them on the trail. If you can't avoid them, suck it up and respect them anyway, and be considerate. It is sad that HIKE YOUR OWN HIKE needs explanation. If I don't want to be annoyed, why in God's Green Tunnel, would I want to annoy others. Common sense is definitely not common -- only a fool would expect it.
At the trail-head, my battery is taken out of the cell phone: I don't need connection and have no desire to know the exact time. If I see trash, it hikes with me. If I have excess supplies, another hiker experiences trail magic. I become at ease and enjoy the outdoors. BUT WHO AM I? Nobody. I am no example.
People don't bug me talking on the cell phone or bee-bopping to an MP3 because I am comfortable with not getting all worked up. I am comfortable letting it go. Just like hearing the roar of civilization below, whining never changes the sound level. If I see puke, I walk around it, common people it's not rocket science!
Sorta like when a tree falls in the forest. There must be an ear (receiver) to have a sound exist. Invasive technology only impacts those who are easily disturbed. "No sniveling!", says Sgt Rock.
I found the secret to contentment (other than changing my attitude toward TIME) is changing my attitude toward others and my circumstances. Only PRACTICE will make it second nature.
Thin skin is an inescapable prison.
When you have thin skin EVERYTHING is invasive. I pity those with thin skin but I'm not going to suggest making a rule about it. Technology has it's place. Not everyone can aggree where.
BUT THAT'S JUST ME.:sun
I used to hate cell phone users.
Now I are one.
As with anything else, including religion and politics, use with concern for others around you.
Some may think that it makes "wilderness" feel safer.
I believe that it makes hiking the AT safer, not only for you, but for those you may come into contact with who need outside aid.
Agreed, a cell may be a crutch for the unprepared, but better the cell be a crutch than you.
I, personally, have no use for personal music devices, but I won't criticize those who do.
My opinions are not necessarily due to the use of my brain. :)
Cell phones certainly make the AT safer as I said several pages of posts ago. And that, as those who have been really listening, know, is my point. A safe trail is different from a trail where there is still a bit of a challenge, a requirement to plan and think and take care of yourself, and not to be tempted when mishaps occur to ask the next hiker to come along to borrow their phone.
This seems quite obvious to me. And I puzzle why so few are able to understand. But anyway, I prefer to hike with a sense of wildness, rather than to hike with a sense that I'm as safe as current technology can achieve.
That's not whining. That's just a point of view. The whiners are those who can stand a point of view different from theirs.
Weary
fiddlehead
10-05-2008, 21:14
That's all well and good ziggy, and happy farting.
But it is post #105 that is bothering me and i believe most people on here.
I too will hike the AT southbound or even better, do another less popular trail and probably won't be stuck in the situation that happened to Homer up in that post.
But it is like farting in church IMO. It's not against the law but it is not cool.
Now, what happened that made it an unwritten rule that you don't fart in church?
That's what i believe some of us are talking about here.
We all walk around puke, most of us don't stay in shelters because of snorers and dogs, but sooner or later, that cell phone loudmouth is going to piss you off.
.....Also was able to enjoy some local hikes in my former neck of the woods. Did not see a soul for 2 hrs. Not bad for the 2nd most crowded state in the country......
But also truly sad. Our town land trust has built 20 + miles of trails in our small town. All are well signed and over blazed, and traverse some quite remarkable and beautiful coastal Maine landscape of hills, rock faces, the shore of a man made pond, beaver flowages.... We are a small town with a lot of protected open spaces -- 5,000 acres at last count. Hunters traverse the areas (illegally) on their ATV's during gunning seasons, but only a relative handful walk the trails.
And many of those do so in a state of fear. None of the trails are more than a half mile from a public road. But I also know almost instantly when our map box is empty. I get a call from someone afraid to leave the parking lot until I refill the box with maps.
We have truly become a nanny town. The fire and ambulance chief lobbies regularly to build roads into the heart of the preserves for his rescue vehicles and fire trucks. Parents refuse permission for their kids to wander the preserves for fear they may not be safe, while their over weight kids waddle from school bus to a game sofa with their incipient diabetes, facing a likely lifetime of heart problems.
Weary
Ziggy Trek
10-05-2008, 21:56
That's all well and good ziggy, and happy farting.
But it is post #105 that is bothering me and i believe most people on here.
I too will hike the AT southbound or even better, do another less popular trail and probably won't be stuck in the situation that happened to Homer up in that post.
But it is like farting in church IMO. It's not against the law but it is not cool.
Now, what happened that made it an unwritten rule that you don't fart in church?
That's what i believe some of us are talking about here.
We all walk around puke, most of us don't stay in shelters because of snorers and dogs, but sooner or later, that cell phone loudmouth is going to piss you off.
You're right. The guy was definitely intruding on Homer. I suppose it's not a big deal until it happens to you. Since I sleep with earplugs, I may be a little insensitive to what folks have to endure. thanks
People intrude on other people's space everyday everywhere. Nothing you can do but deal with it or avoid common places where people gather. Electronics is just another of a long line of stuff people find intrusive, when in reality it is the people not the stuff that is the problem.
You want a sense of wildness? As other's have said, the AT is probably not the best place to find it.
Wise Old Owl
10-05-2008, 23:31
A MAP,possibly??
Dohhh!
Wise Old Owl
10-05-2008, 23:37
This seems quite obvious to me. And I puzzle why so few are able to understand. But anyway, I prefer to hike with a sense of wildness, rather than to hike with a sense that I'm as safe as current technology can achieve.
That's not whining. That's just a point of view. The whiners are those who can stand a point of view different from theirs.
Weary
Sorry Weary, When I said stop whining I ment people in general, I did not mean your specific post - I went back and looked and I can see what I wrote was misplaced.
No one is protesting that technology has given us nearly all of our current gear & apparel. They only complain about the electronics. Consider the gear & apparel revolution in our lifetime. Now take it back 150 years (watch Jeremiah Johnson if you don't have a clue)
lightweight waterproof shoes with tread instead of leather
quick drying nylon & polyester pants & shirts instead of cotton or wool
lightweight packs
lightweight shelters
head lamps
water bladders
lightweight sleeping bags
lightweight waterproof shells
the convenience of stoves
dehydrated foods
3 oz trekking poles
Homer&Marje
10-06-2008, 07:22
That's all well and good ziggy, and happy farting.
But it is post #105 that is bothering me and i believe most people on here.
I too will hike the AT southbound or even better, do another less popular trail and probably won't be stuck in the situation that happened to Homer up in that post.
But it is like farting in church IMO. It's not against the law but it is not cool.
Now, what happened that made it an unwritten rule that you don't fart in church?
That's what i believe some of us are talking about here.
We all walk around puke, most of us don't stay in shelters because of snorers and dogs, but sooner or later, that cell phone loudmouth is going to piss you off.
I understand that you are defending my position in the post, but I clearly posted that although it was annoying there are much worse things that can happen. He could have stopped and shared our tent site:D
I didn't get so annoyed that I donned the buck knife with some Rambo mud on the face and stalked him through the woods to scare the crap out of him....although that's really funny.
I am also glad he did not stop because who knows which one of my habits or creature comforts might have pissed him off. I am all about going into the mountains to see less people. As someone posted before, I like hiking out west because you go a few days without seeing someone, and it's almost a relief when you do. When you live in over populated areas like I do, and many others, the conglomeration of bad habits around you really erks your nerves. Not that I am thin skinned, I just hate people...75% of them.
Strive to meet the 25% in life folks, you'll be happier.
(Not trying to sway anyone's opinion of trails, hiking me, or WB. Not trying to offend, harm, or piss any one off. Not trying to take your cell phone, make you stop talking, shut off your ipod or tell you to stop farting. This is my disclaimer.)
Hoop Time
10-07-2008, 08:44
The problem is not the technology. The problem is the people. You don't need a high tech device to demonstrate bad manners. Look around in the next restaurant you eat in and count the number of guys eating with a baseball hat on. You don't ban baseball hats because those yahoos lack the manners to remove them at the table.
Ditto for the cell phone on the trail. The phone is not the problem. The rude person infringing on others while using it is. In that respect, it is not much different from people using them in the line at the grocery checkout.
Take away their phones and those folks will find some other way to demonstrate their lack of manners, on or off the trail.
Christus Cowboy
10-07-2008, 08:54
God gave us the gift of free will. Churches, governments, and whiners try to take it away. Rules are only obeyed by those who probably don't need them in the first place. Fear or peer pressure is a failed, yet over-used, tactic. Love others unconditionally, take the good with the bad. Develop a thick hide.
Zig you make some very good points here and I too enjoy the diversity of opinion this thread has brought out..... I would like to add a thought to some of your observations.... There's no doubt that God gave us the gift of free-will and I honestly believe it is a gift that many take for granted. Unfortunately, we see many individuals who fail to understand that responsibility comes with many of the gifts we enjoy. That said, it seems to me that many want to exercise free-will and enjoy the privileges thereof but when the consequences of bad choices come to fruition they are the first ones to demand that others insulate them from the consequences that they themselves created. Now I understand that I'm narrowly framing my point here.... I understand that bad things can happen to individuals independent of their free-will and it should also be noted that many of our choices don't just affect but touch the lives of others as well.... but as you said "Loving others.... taking the good with the bad.... and developing a thick skin....." is good advice for all of us......
We all walk around puke, most of us don't stay in shelters because of snorers and dogs, but sooner or later, that cell phone loudmouth is going to piss you off.
I've told this story numerous times before, and it was told to an AP Reporter who re-told it in a story that appeared nationwide back in 2004.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_/ai_n11457968
I was in Icewater Spring Shelter a bit before 6 AM in early April 2000. It was pitch black. Suddenly, from the upper loft comes a BOOMING voice from a jackass lawyer/hiker I'd met the previous evening. He was on the phone with his wife, confirming that she was going to pick him and his buddy up at the trail head later that morning. He wanted her to bring him some Diet Coke, so that's why he was calling.
Woke the whole damn shelter. I couldn't believe it - then or now. Diet frigging Coke!
I know i've been touched by his noodly appendage. All hail the FSM. :dance
Yes, I would never take the FSM's name in vain.. :D
To be serious, we don't think of using a cell phone in a cathedral (unless it is an emergency), should we not show the same level of respect for the other cathedral in the woods, the mountains, the lakes? Etc?
Yes, wool is still excellent. I take a real wool sweater with me oftentimes in place of a synthetic fleece, and I don't notice much difference, except the wool weighs just a bit more for the same warmth.
I actually prefer wool for winter use. Find it breathes better than synthetics, sheds the snow, etc.
Too bulky for summer, though, I find.
Allow me to rephrase and expand. There are bigger issues than cell phones or plasma ray-guns. I respect other and HOPE they respect me. If they don't respect who cares.
Ziggy, I am not saying this to be sarcastic, but your explanation is as clear as mud.
take-a-knee
10-07-2008, 15:39
I've told this story numerous times before, and it was told to an AP Reporter who re-told it in a story that appeared nationwide back in 2004.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_/ai_n11457968
I was in Icewater Spring Shelter a bit before 6 AM in early April 2000. It was pitch black. Suddenly, from the upper loft comes a BOOMING voice from a jackass lawyer/hiker I'd met the previous evening. He was on the phone with his wife, confirming that she was going to pick him and his buddy up at the trail head later that morning. He wanted her to bring him some Diet Coke, so that's why he was calling.
Woke the whole damn shelter. I couldn't believe it - then or now. Diet frigging Coke!
Well Mowgli, did you tell him he's a rude SOB and threaten to do your best Steven Segall impersonation on him (and mean it)? If not, you deserved what you got...CAUSE YOU SPENT THE NIGHT IN A SHELTER!
At the very least I would have launched that cell phone into orbit and seen what happened next.
threaten to do your best Steven Segall impersonation on him (and mean it)?
Heh..acting like Segal would not be very effective.....
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/scams/steven_seagal/index.html
On the FBI tape, they say that the tough-guy actor was "petrified." At this meeting Anthony "Sonny" Ciccone, an alleged capo in New York's Gambino organized-crime family, and his "right-hand man," Primo Cassarino, joked with Vincent Nasso about Seagal's less than heroic reactions to their shakedown attempts. The whole situation brought out the "Paulie Walnuts" in Cassarino. "I wish we had a gun on us," he says on the tape, "that
would have been funny."
I find people who act and talk tough in non-reality (if you will) are rarely tough in real life. :)
My grandfather was true tough guy. Never raised his voice. Never threatened. Always calm. No bravado.
He simply spoke firmly and evenly.
More effective.
Somehow I don't think he'd want a cell phone in the backcountry either. ;)
Well Mowgli, did you tell him he's a rude SOB and threaten to do your best Steven Segall impersonation on him (and mean it)? If not, you deserved what you got...CAUSE YOU SPENT THE NIGHT IN A SHELTER!
At the very least I would have launched that cell phone into orbit and seen what happened next.
Thanks Rambo. :p
PS: You have to spend the night in the shelter in the Smokies.
Heh..acting like Segal would not be very effective.....
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/scams/steven_seagal/index.html
On the FBI tape, they say that the tough-guy actor was "petrified." At this meeting Anthony "Sonny" Ciccone, an alleged capo in New York's Gambino organized-crime family, and his "right-hand man," Primo Cassarino, joked with Vincent Nasso about Seagal's less than heroic reactions to their shakedown attempts. The whole situation brought out the "Paulie Walnuts" in Cassarino. "I wish we had a gun on us," he says on the tape, "that
would have been funny."
I find people who act and talk tough in non-reality (if you will) are rarely tough in real life. :)
My grandfather was true tough guy. Never raised his voice. Never threatened. Always calm. No bravado.
He simply spoke firmly and evenly.
More effective.
Somehow I don't think he'd want a cell phone either. ;)
Thanks Rambo. :p
PS: You have to spend the night in the shelter in the Smokies.
Actually, Rambo, er Sylvestor Stallone, would not travel to Cannes after one of the Rambo flicks and during some heightened terrorist alert, when most other actors did go. The French boycotted his flick and called him a sissy. The same story said he was putting the finally touches on a major league wall around his compound to hide behind. Funny to see some of these folks build up an image only to let others tear it down...easily.
take-a-knee
10-07-2008, 16:33
Thanks Rambo. :p
PS: You have to spend the night in the shelter in the Smokies.
That has a lot to do with why I haven't been there yet.
That has a lot to do with why I haven't been there yet.
I would suggest that you hike the Benton MacKaye Trail through the park. There are some great campgrounds that free you up to tent or hang. Whatever your pleasure. You also get to see the rich cove forests along the BMT. To me, that's the prettiest part of the park.
take-a-knee
10-07-2008, 16:41
Heh..acting like Segal would not be very effective.....
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/scams/steven_seagal/index.html
On the FBI tape, they say that the tough-guy actor was "petrified." At this meeting Anthony "Sonny" Ciccone, an alleged capo in New York's Gambino organized-crime family, and his "right-hand man," Primo Cassarino, joked with Vincent Nasso about Seagal's less than heroic reactions to their shakedown attempts. The whole situation brought out the "Paulie Walnuts" in Cassarino. "I wish we had a gun on us," he says on the tape, "that
would have been funny."
I find people who act and talk tough in non-reality (if you will) are rarely tough in real life. :)
My grandfather was true tough guy. Never raised his voice. Never threatened. Always calm. No bravado.
He simply spoke firmly and evenly.
More effective.
Somehow I don't think he'd want a cell phone in the backcountry either. ;)
Well Mags, the probability of you and I spending the night in a shelter approach zero, so it really is a moot point. If the improbable happens, and you wake me up at dawn shouting into a cell phone, I promise you I'll change your mind.
take-a-knee
10-07-2008, 16:48
You guys should contact Oprah's producer and put this thread on TV, it would fit right in.
max patch
10-07-2008, 16:48
More like Jerry Springer.
take-a-knee
10-07-2008, 16:50
I would suggest that you hike the Benton MacKaye Trail through the park. There are some great campgrounds that free you up to tent or hang. Whatever your pleasure. You also get to see the rich cove forests along the BMT. To me, that's the prettiest part of the park.
I plan to do just that one day on a BMT through, thanks.
max patch
10-07-2008, 16:51
Look around in the next restaurant you eat in and count the number of guys eating with a baseball hat on. You don't ban baseball hats because those yahoos lack the manners to remove them at the table.
If YOU wear a baseball hat in a restaurant it doesnt affect ME in any way at all.
take-a-knee
10-07-2008, 16:58
If YOU wear a baseball hat in a restaurant it doesnt affect ME in any way at all.
I was thinking the same thing myself.
Well Mags, the probability of you and I spending the night in a shelter approach zero, so it really is a moot point. If the improbable happens, and you wake me up at dawn shouting into a cell phone, I promise you I'll change your mind.
The probability of me talking on a cell phone in the Smokies is a moot point as well. ;)
Finally, in honor of this thread... (http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/League_of_Cantankerous_Misanthropes/InternetToughGuy.jpg)
Or maybe this one? (http://bp1.blogger.com/_vGlBUID_WM8/RxDgT_jQAfI/AAAAAAAAAJ0/BdM0sf_9S2g/s1600-h/itg_quarterly.jpg)
:D
I'm a short little guy myself.. I'd say I'm a pasty face geek. However, I am a naturally tan geek instead.
come on guys. be polite. Better than me even polite. 74 years after kindergarten, I've been placed on restrictions. But I have to say that this debate is a bit silly.
Wise hikers near to screw up their courage and challenge a$$holes on the trail, not that I always do so. But I've failed to do so enough times to recognize the importance of my advice.
Anyway, my final judgment is to welcome kids to the trail, no matter how obnixious. We absolutely need more young kids enthusiastic about wild places. Let's try to subtly educate them while also welcoming them.
The future of wild places requires it.
Weary
take-a-knee
10-07-2008, 21:22
The probability of me talking on a cell phone in the Smokies is a moot point as well. ;)
Finally, in honor of this thread... (http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/League_of_Cantankerous_Misanthropes/InternetToughGuy.jpg)
Or maybe this one? (http://bp1.blogger.com/_vGlBUID_WM8/RxDgT_jQAfI/AAAAAAAAAJ0/BdM0sf_9S2g/s1600-h/itg_quarterly.jpg)
:D
I'm a short little guy myself.. I'd say I'm a pasty face geek. However, I am a naturally tan geek instead.
Your short? That makes two of us. 5' 8"/ 165#. I'm not nearly as good-looking, and nowhere near as manly as your "models".
I don't know if I'm qualified (haven't done my hike yet) to comment yet, but it kind of seems like a "to each their own, live & let live, etc." thing. As long as it's on vibrate I can't see it being bothersome. & it could be practical for safety reasons. As long as my Led Zep Black Dog ring tone's not set on high as I hike near you, it's an outta sight outta mind thing. I would think that iPod's are better than 25 years ago when people might have carried small radios or tape-players. That would be more intrusive, yes? Just conjecturin' here...
Jim Adams
02-22-2009, 12:48
I don't know if I'm qualified (haven't done my hike yet) to comment yet, but it kind of seems like a "to each their own, live & let live, etc." thing. As long as it's on vibrate I can't see it being bothersome. & it could be practical for safety reasons. As long as my Led Zep Black Dog ring tone's not set on high as I hike near you, it's an outta sight outta mind thing. I would think that iPod's are better than 25 years ago when people might have carried small radios or tape-players. That would be more intrusive, yes? Just conjecturin' here...
In 1990 most hikers carried a little Radio Shack FM radio with ear buds that was about the size of a credit card. It was not considered intrusive then and actually once thru Virginia, most of the "non" carrying hikers wished that the radios had speakers instead of the ear buds.
OTOH, Dead Ahead carried about 20 Grateful Dead tapes which he played thru the 6" x 8" x 4" speakers that were mounted to the top corners of his external frame. Alot of hikers considered that intrusive to their "wilderness experience" however by Erwin alot of those hikers were hiking with Dead Ahead just for the entertainment of the music.
I guess that the lesson here is that technologies may change but most thru hikers still have the same outlook on the trail no matter what decade you're hiking.
geek
Rockhound
02-22-2009, 13:50
If "invasive technology" is your biggest gripe count your blessings. In shelter areas you will deal with trash, mice, crowds, smells, dogs, smoking, drinking and yes, cell phones and music. Nobody is making you stay at shelters. That's your choice. As far as on the trail, if someone comes bebopping down the trail playing music without headphones or talking on a cell phone (and it bothers you that much) take a 5 minute break. HYOH and let others hike theirs. This is just much ado about nothing. If you want quiet and solitude 24/7 picking the AT (the I-95) of trails is your first mistake. For me I would rather listen to someones music than to listen to someone whine and complain about it from atop their high horse.
Lone Wolf
02-22-2009, 13:54
For me I would rather listen to someones music than to listen to someone whine and complain about it from atop their high horse.
me too as long as it's not that grateful dead or phish crap
hikingshoes
02-22-2009, 14:04
well put nickthegreek
hikingshoes
02-22-2009, 14:07
Well put nickthegreek #7.sorry for two post.
Rockhound
02-22-2009, 14:12
me too as long as it's not that grateful dead or phish crap
"I let up from Reno. I was trailed by 20 hounds. Didn't get to sleep that night til' the morning came around...."
Blue Jay
02-22-2009, 21:36
we Need A Code Of Conduct For The Use Of Electronic Devices On The Trail. The Things Will Be On The Trail And Those Who Bring Them Should Know How To Use Them On The At According To Some Rules Of Etiquette.
Bwaaahahahahahahahaha
Blue Jay
02-22-2009, 21:43
In shelter areas you will deal with trash, mice, crowds, smells, dogs, smoking, drinking and yes, cell phones and music.
You forgot fleas and skunk urine but if you put drinking first you nailed the top 10 reasons I stay at shelters (and those who know me, know I am not joking). Remember, we all have to get used to being third worlders. Thrus are just ahead of the game.
randyg45
02-23-2009, 13:36
Great thread, JG; thanks for starting it.
I'm of the general opinions that:
A. My cell phone has a greater capacity to ruin my day than does yours. But I have kids, wife, etc, so it's just about a necessity at least every couple days or so.
B. That doesn't mean that using yours at an inappropriate time is something that I won't tell you about. That goes double or triple for trying to make me listen to your music.
C. The AT is increasingly about the party, not the wild. IMHO, the world, the country, the AT- all could do with fewer people and far less drugs and booze.
Blue Jay
02-23-2009, 19:11
IMHO, the world, the country, the AT- all could do with fewer people and far less drugs and booze.
BWAAAHAHAHAHA, you people are killing me. Fewer people, they're having them in 8 packs now. Less drugs, more than half of america is on prescription drugs every single day, add booze and illegal drugs and you are an extreme minority. What planet do you want to live on as it's clearly not this one? The AT and the hikers on it are fine the way they are (including the weird pole/crutch religion).
nitewalker
02-23-2009, 19:24
If "invasive technology" is your biggest gripe count your blessings. In shelter areas you will deal with trash, mice, crowds, smells, dogs, smoking, drinking and yes, cell phones and music. Nobody is making you stay at shelters. That's your choice. As far as on the trail, if someone comes bebopping down the trail playing music without headphones or talking on a cell phone (and it bothers you that much) take a 5 minute break. HYOH and let others hike theirs. This is just much ado about nothing. If you want quiet and solitude 24/7 picking the AT (the I-95) of trails is your first mistake. For me I would rather listen to someones music than to listen to someone whine and complain about it from atop their high horse.
amen rockhound!! i see no problem with any tecno gadgets on the trail. if people really have a problem with those gadgets on the trail then away from the trail those people must really hate life with all its noise pollution..deal with it because it is what it is...
Jack Tarlin
02-23-2009, 19:33
Randy:
You stated that the Trail is "increasingly about the party, not the wild".
Interesting statement.
I personally disagree. There have always been partiers and folks more interested in the social aspects of the trip, but I don't think this has changed dramatically. There's more socializing amongst hikers because there are more facilities, and hikers spend more time in hostels and towns than they used t , but this doesn't mean they're all partying or acting irresponsible when they do so.
Just out of curiousity, when did you hike the Trail and how far did you go?
superman
02-23-2009, 19:52
Bwaaahahahahahahahaha
OK, I'll put you down as a maybe for the Code Committee. :D:D
randyg45
02-23-2009, 19:57
"Just out of curiousity, when did you hike the Trail and how far did you go?"
Jack, I hiked part/most of Georgia in the late 60s early 70s, much of it several times. (Hunted deer and squirrel on/near parts of it, too). I've hiked different sections of southern Va, early 90s, rarely more than a weekend at a time.
One
randyg45
02-23-2009, 20:18
Sorry- I don't know how to edit/delete on this forum and inadvertantly posted the above before I was finished, so I'll just pick up where I left off....
One of the things that I've learned here is that I'm not really so much a hiker as I am a backpacker who hikes in to fish or hunt or camp. It's never been about the miles for me, especially out West, where I've done the majority of my hiking, but about what was at the end of those miles.
But, my God, look at the number of threads here concerned with little more than booze. When I first set foot on the trail literally all of N Ga was dry (unless you knew the bootlegger who owned the service station on hwy 129- I think- just south of Vogel SP, nad even then the prices were terrible). No one went to the AT for booze and music, believe me. Go back just a little way and things have changed a lot; sometimes for the better and sometimes not- but a lot. "Change" and "improvement" are not synonyms.
I'm hoping to do a thru next year for various reasons, one of which is just to see it before it becomes, evidently, one raucous drunken slackpack, but I have my own ideas about avoiding the crowds and noise and whatall. I have a life that includes family and friends; I don't have some lame unfulfilled need for social interaction. For me the woods- hiking, fishing, hunting- have always been about getting away from civilization- including people.
randyg45
02-23-2009, 20:24
Less drugs, more than half of america is on prescription drugs every single day, add booze and illegal drugs and you are an extreme minority.
Yes, I am; and quite grateful for it.
Homer&Marje
02-23-2009, 23:14
Sorry- I don't know how to edit/delete on this forum and inadvertantly posted the above before I was finished, so I'll just pick up where I left off....
One of the things that I've learned here is that I'm not really so much a hiker as I am a backpacker who hikes in to fish or hunt or camp. It's never been about the miles for me, especially out West, where I've done the majority of my hiking, but about what was at the end of those miles.
But, my God, look at the number of threads here concerned with little more than booze. When I first set foot on the trail literally all of N Ga was dry (unless you knew the bootlegger who owned the service station on hwy 129- I think- just south of Vogel SP, nad even then the prices were terrible). No one went to the AT for booze and music, believe me. Go back just a little way and things have changed a lot; sometimes for the better and sometimes not- but a lot. "Change" and "improvement" are not synonyms.
I'm hoping to do a thru next year for various reasons, one of which is just to see it before it becomes, evidently, one raucous drunken slackpack, but I have my own ideas about avoiding the crowds and noise and whatall. I have a life that includes family and friends; I don't have some lame unfulfilled need for social interaction. For me the woods- hiking, fishing, hunting- have always been about getting away from civilization- including people.
I feel the exact same way. But I also bring my flask. Odd:rolleyes:
austinlowes17
02-23-2009, 23:43
How are cell phones invasive? Sometimes it's nice to get in touch with your family and girlfriend. Opponents argue that phones rob them of their "wilderness experience." I'd hardly call the Appalachian Trail a wilderness. If that's what you're seeking go out west or up to Alaska. Quit trying to make others conform to your illusion.
There are many on this site that would like you to believe that thru hiking the AT is one big blue blazing/ pot smoking 6 month party. I am happy to report that they are wrong. The majority of thru hikers walk past every white blaze and do not do drugs.
As for cell phones and other technologies on the trail, I like them more than out of control boy scouts.
randyg45
02-24-2009, 01:06
I feel the exact same way. But I also bring my flask. Odd:rolleyes:
There's a post here somewhere- I think in this thread- wherein the poster says he expects to step over puke at/in shelters. That is what I would see as a problem, not a guy taking a couple snorts out of a flask.
There are many on this site that would like you to believe that thru hiking the AT is one big blue blazing/ pot smoking 6 month party. I am happy to report that they are wrong. The majority of thru hikers walk past every white blaze and do not do drugs.
Are today's hike very much like those depicted in the 2,000 Miles to Maine Movie?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0424758/
If so, things have changed bid time.
Rockhound
02-24-2009, 20:35
There are many on this site that would like you to believe that thru hiking the AT is one big blue blazing/ pot smoking 6 month party. I am happy to report that they are wrong. The majority of thru hikers walk past every white blaze and do not do drugs.
As for cell phones and other technologies on the trail, I like them more than out of control boy scouts.
what does smoking pot have to do with invasive technologies? unless of course they're using an elecic powered bong.:-?
Jack Tarlin
02-24-2009, 20:36
While I agree with Pootz who says that the perception of the Trail as a massive six-month party is unfair and untrue, I can't say I agree with his other statements.
I won't go as far as to say that most thru-hikers get high, but the percentage who do is awfully high.
And as for most thru-hikers walking past every white blaze, i.e. being committed to hiking the Trail in its absolute entirety and not skipping anything, well this is certainly not the case.
While I agree with Pootz who says that the perception of the Trail as a massive six-month party is unfair and untrue, I can't say I agree with his other statements.
I won't go as far as to say that most thru-hikers get high, but the percentage who do is awfully high.
And as for most thru-hikers walking past every white blaze, i.e. being committed to hiking the Trail in its absolute entirety and not skipping anything, well this is certainly not the case.
Used to be that hikers looked forward to the trail ahead when in town, as much or more as they looked forward to towns ahead when on the trail.
Probably still true. Sometimes that reality seems missing in current journals and on WB, though.
One thing is for sure, hikers spend way more time in town than they ever did. I wonder if it goes up each year?
Nearly Normal
02-24-2009, 21:00
I won't go as far as to say that most thru-hikers get high, but the percentage who do is awfully high.
Most are young people.
The percentage that choose that particular is probably not much different than the 70's generation. Most State laws are less strict these days too.
I predict increased use.
Jack Tarlin
02-24-2009, 21:08
Rick's right.
People spend a lot more time off the Trail than they used to.
Lots of different reasons for this, but first off, there are a lot more places to stay than there used to be, and new places open every year. In the old days, people would go seven, eight, nine days or more without staying under a roof. In many cases, it was lots longer.
Now, most folks crash under a roof twice a week or more. There are simply more opportunities to do so.
Plus, hikers are better informed. Thanx to more inclusive Guidebooks and thanx to the Internet and websites like this one, the hikers know all about these places well in advance and make plans to stay there, instead of making these decisions spontaneously as they go along.
In any case, Rick's right.
The old school hikers were a much tougher breed. For them, a six month Walk in the Woods meant exactly that.
Lone Wolf
02-24-2009, 22:12
Used to be that hikers looked forward to the trail ahead when in town, as much or more as they looked forward to towns ahead when on the trail.
Probably still true. Sometimes that reality seems missing in current journals and on WB, though.
One thing is for sure, hikers spend way more time in town than they ever did. I wonder if it goes up each year?
yup. it goes up. come spend a season in damascus. hikers like the party and socializing more than walking
johnnybgood
02-24-2009, 22:18
The times they are a changin' - Robert Zimmerman ( aka Bob Dylan )
randyg45
04-13-2009, 10:07
Randy:
You stated that the Trail is "increasingly about the party, not the wild".
Interesting statement.
I personally disagree.
Did people 20- or even 10- years ago seem to have the attitude that pot was semi legal and they could smoke it, or at least carry it, wherever they damned well pleased? Somehow, in my 57 years, I just haven't been a part of that (small) segment of our society.
Try this thread, Jack: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=49052&highlight=rules+enforced
Rockhound
04-13-2009, 10:31
Again I must ask, what the hell does smoking pot have to do with invasive technologies? Answer: absolutely nothing. May I suggest you go over to the "pot bust at the Place thread Randy?
traildust
04-13-2009, 11:59
Fighting a loosing battle folks. Times change, the trail changes, totally evolving. Carried a phone, digital camera, and IPOD and I am guessing no one even knew I had them. As gizmos get lighter and smaller more of these will make there way to the far reaches of the wildnerness. We can morn the loose of the "true wilderness" experience or we can just walk faster and seperate ourselves for the moment from those who use them. By the way, where would we be without the new headlamps that we wear on our heads, or those LED flashlights that use less power but provide brighter lights? Technologies and wilderness experiences can work together to make it a great experience.
Lone Wolf
04-13-2009, 12:37
Again I must ask, what the hell does smoking pot have to do with invasive technologies? Answer: absolutely nothing. May I suggest you go over to the "pot bust at the Place thread Randy?
can' t post on it cuz dopers got it closed
Technologies and wilderness experiences can work together to make it a great experience.
I like to make a distinction between what I call "passive" and "interactive" technology.
Passive technology (head lamps, petrol based clothing) do not functionally change a hike.
Interactive technology (cell phones, PLBs, etc.) have the potential to change the nature of a hike.
If that potential is a good or bad depends upon your view point.
DRUGS: Wrong thread folks. As Rock Hound said, unless we are discussing solar powered bongs with a satellite phone, please move the discussion elsewhere. Thanks! :sun