View Full Version : down jacket for winter hiking
vtdrifter
10-02-2008, 22:14
I'm going to be doing a bunch of winter hiking starting this winter, mostly in New England and Northern New York (the Whites, the Adirondacks, the Green Mountains). I need a down jacket, and am looking for some advice.
I haven't done any serious winter camping - the coldest it got on my thru was consecutive days in the twenties, so I'm not entirely sure what the best layering system is. Here's what I'm envisioning:
With temps in the twenties, I'm comfortable in a t-shirt and frogg toggs jacket. I haven't hiked much below there, but basically, I generate a lot of heat while hiking, and I sweat a lot. Is the general practice to hike mostly in a fleece, saving the jacket for camp/breaks, unless it's really really cold, and then hike in the jacket?
Assuming that's the case, I've found a bunch of jackets that seem like good camp jackets - warm, light, not too expensive, and I have no idea how to choose between them.
Most of them are the Montbell Alpine Down (16oz, $175), Mountain Hardware Phantom (18oz, $170 or less on backcountryoutlet), Mountain Hardware Sub Zero (27oz, $120 or less on backcountryoutlet), Golite Inferno (19oz, $230), Marmot Guides Down Sweater (28oz, $120 or less on backcountryoutlet.com), North Face Elysium (19oz, $175 or less on backcountry.com).
The price difference between all these isn't enough to bother me too much, it's more a question of warmth, weight and quality. Is there a compelling reason one of the heavier jackets would be preferable? Does any one (or two) of these jackets/companies stand out as better than the others? Do you know of another jacket that would be as good or better?
And of course, am I reasoning correctly that I want a down jacket for camp/breaks that would be comfortable in zero/sub zero temps, possibly with the addition of a midweight fleece jacket?
I have a Western Mountaineering Vapor Jacket. It is very warm and it really stops the wind. But I wish it had a removable hood.
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Jackets%20%26%20Vests&viewpost=2&ContentId=64
Take a look at it and the Feathered Friends Volant jacket & pants
http://www.featheredfriends.com/Picasso/Garments/Mid/VolantJacket.html
Take what I say with a grain of salt - layering systems are a very individual thing. What works for me may or may not work for you.
During the day, I'm comfortable hiking only in a baselayer with a baselayer long underwear and some goretex on my legs. That's dependant on a number of things, such as wind and sun. While hiking and a lot of times while resting, I'm fine in just my baselayer and something to block the wind when I rest.
Early in the morning, while I wait for anyone else to get going, I wear mainly a layer of fleece. That's likely to be the coldest time you hike.
At night, you're going to need a thick layer to hang out around camp. If you go with down, which it seems like you really want to, keep in mind the areas you've listed are known to be wet areas. Do your best to keep your parka dry. If it's raining, you're going to want a layer of goretex over that parka.
I do know that MH Sub Zero jacket's a hot parka. I love Marmot products.
I would still consider a synthetic layer. Granted, when the temp drops low enough, it's not possible that any precipitation will be falling. In the areas you're talking about, it's in my opinion, that as a layer you'll wear around, synthetic might be a better choice.
If you're looking synthetic, Patagonia's DAS parka is a good parka. Wild Things (small North Conway, NH brand) makes some good ones as well.
It's a hard choice, overall, this whole synthetic over down.
if it'll be that cold at camp don't forget about your legs :o
For your legs, i suggest the Mountain Hardwear Compressor pants! Hot!!
Feral Bill
10-02-2008, 23:05
when the temp drops low enough, it's not possible that any precipitation will be falling.
I have seen plenty of precipitation at -20 in these areas. It might not melt on your jacket, though.
Old school gear, back when I did this a lot, was Micky Mouse boots, wool socks, cotton (yes, cotton) long johns, surplus wool pants, cotton(again!) net T shirt, wool sweater, 60/40 parka, surplus mittens, wool balaclava, scarf, poncho, and a thick down parka. This was universal, and it worked.
Modern gear adds comfort and subtracts weight. I believe the AMC has a book on winter camping that would help you.
Sorry, I meant probable, not possible.
And yeah, at those temps, you'll be able to just brush it off your jacket. It won't be able to soak in much.
Just don't plan on hiking in it...down is camp insulation.
Whatever combination/layers you decide on, think what you'll hike in and what you'll wear in camp and don't mix them up, i.e. you don't want to hike too warm and sweat soak stuff you're depending on for warmth in camp. Polyester long underwear bottoms under Marmot Precip pants is a good combination to keep your legs warm in camp.
If you do get your hiking clothing sweaty and it's not dry the next morning, you should hike in them again that day also. Kinda unpleasant to put on when it's early and cold, but once you get going and get the blood flowing, you'll be fine and might even dry them out while hiking if conditions are not still wet. You can't/shouldn't carry more than two sets of clothing, so what becomes wet becomes your hiking clothes and keep the other set dry at all costs.
Experiment on drying damp/sweaty clothing either in your sleeping bag or between your sleeping bag and ground pad/mattress during the night.
I'm a synthetic guy and don't use down. I would if hiking in the Yukon in winter, but not in the wet/damp Eastern US. My 2 cents, for what it's worth. :)
take-a-knee
10-02-2008, 23:43
Whatever combination/layers you decide on, think what you'll hike in and what you'll wear in camp and don't mix them up, i.e. you don't want to hike too warm and sweat soak stuff you're depending on for warmth in camp. Polyester long underwear bottoms under Marmot Precip pants is a good combination to keep your legs warm in camp.
If you do get your hiking clothing sweaty and it's not dry the next morning, you should hike in them again that day also. Kinda unpleasant to put on when it's early and cold, but once you get going and get the blood flowing, you'll be fine and might even dry them out while hiking if conditions are not still wet. You can't/shouldn't carry more than two sets of clothing, so what becomes wet becomes your hiking clothes and keep the other set dry at all costs.
Experiment on drying damp/sweaty clothing either in your sleeping bag or between your sleeping bag and ground pad/mattress during the night.
I'm a synthetic guy and don't use down. I would if hiking in the Yukon in winter, but not in the wet/damp Eastern US. My 2 cents, for what it's worth. :)
Well stated. I agree that your warm clothing is your last refuge, in a cold wet environment it makes sense to carry something you can dry by a fire if need be. You can't do that with down.
Wise Old Owl
10-02-2008, 23:49
LL Bean 16 oz $69 and takes a beating, compresses to a baseball and for the price - who cares. Only misgiving - no snap hood - the only oversight.
http://www.llbean.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?categoryId=51590&storeId=1&catalogId=1&langId=-1&from=SR&feat=sr
summit's main ideas are good, but if he's gonna be facing sub-zero temps, he's gonna need insulation on his legs.
wise i see that and kind of want to cut the arms off, stuff all the down from the arms right into the chest area and sew it up for a overstuffed vest. good post/great price
Tipi Walter
10-03-2008, 07:10
This is a subject I've spent some time researching. For basecamp comfort, down is the way to go. How much down and how cold it gets are two important questions. Although the WM jackets are a bit too light for me, here's one that may work:
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Jackets%20%26%20Vests&viewpost=2&ContentId=56
Here's one of the best and would be a serious consideration for any real winter backpacking where staying warm at camp is important:
http://www.featheredfriends.com/Picasso/Garments/Exp/Icefall.html
And if you're really serious about staying warm in deep freeze:
http://www.featheredfriends.com/Picasso/Garments/Exp/RockandIce.html
I'd stay away from all North Face down products as they seem to consistently underfill both their bags and their jackets. I have a Nupste down jacket and it is mostly shell material with very little fill. I use it in the winter but I've been eyeballing some of the above products for future reference.
NICKTHEGREEK
10-03-2008, 07:36
This is a subject I've spent some time researching. For basecamp comfort, down is the way to go. How much down and how cold it gets are two important questions. Although the WM jackets are a bit too light for me, here's one that may work:
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Jackets%20%26%20Vests&viewpost=2&ContentId=56
Here's one of the best and would be a serious consideration for any real winter backpacking where staying warm at camp is important:
http://www.featheredfriends.com/Picasso/Garments/Exp/Icefall.html
And if you're really serious about staying warm in deep freeze:
http://www.featheredfriends.com/Picasso/Garments/Exp/RockandIce.html
I'd stay away from all North Face down products as they seem to consistently underfill both their bags and their jackets. I have a Nupste down jacket and it is mostly shell material with very little fill. I use it in the winter but I've been eyeballing some of the above products for future reference.
Wow!!!! The WM meltdown was 200 when I bought it 4-5 yrs ago. The FF jackets are through the ceiling.
Tipi Walter
10-03-2008, 07:50
Wow!!!! The WM meltdown was 200 when I bought it 4-5 yrs ago. The FF jackets are through the ceiling.
When it comes to down products, it pays in the long run to get the best. If you're living outdoors thru the winter, one month's rent would pay for either the best sleeping bag or a couple of jackets, so what's the problem? And once purchased, these items can allow a person to permanently ditch his apartment/mortage and live outside in some comfort w/o resorting to building a daily fire or toting a light tent woodstove. All Hail therefore the goose and his down, etc.
Pickleodeon
10-04-2008, 09:31
When carrying down for a while, like on a March start nobo, how does it hold up for long periods of time when compressed? I'm worried about my jacket and my sleeping bag, if I'm storing them all day. Any storage suggestions?
For down garments, especially if they can be custom made for you - don't order them with a waterproof/breathable shell. The breathability of the shell in dry conditions is less than a basic nylon fabric, and the shell limits the "comfort range" of the garment. If you do anything strenuous in a wp/b shelled down garment, the moisture stays in it far longer than a basic nylon fabric shell.
Order the wp/b shell separately. That way you can use it with other insulation layers as well, including fleece, which is a much better mate to wp/b shells than down.
When carrying down for a while, like on a March start nobo, how does it hold up for long periods of time when compressed? I'm worried about my jacket and my sleeping bag, if I'm storing them all day. Any storage suggestions?
Down is very resiliant. It will last through many more compression cycles than fiber filled garments. In warm weather, switch it out for fleece, which dries faster and can be wrung by hand enough to keep you relatively warm even if it's damp.
Old school gear, back when I did this a lot, was Micky Mouse boots, wool socks, cotton (yes, cotton) long johns, surplus wool pants, cotton(again!) net T shirt, wool sweater, 60/40 parka, surplus mittens, wool balaclava, scarf, poncho, and a thick down parka. This was universal, and it worked.
60/40 parkas, State of the Art!!! Net T shirts. Add to this HEAVY 100% wool Woolrich knickers with Ragg wool, knee-high knicker socks and you have a "flexible" system. :D
It did provide some excellent times in extreme weather.
60/40..................I remember it well.............
For all the wrong reasons!!!!!! :O or is that :D?
take-a-knee
10-05-2008, 23:26
60/40..................I remember it well.............
For all the wrong reasons!!!!!! :O or is that :D?
I still have my "Gerald McCraney" forest green Sierra Designs 60/40.
Wise Old Owl
10-06-2008, 00:09
how does it hold up for long periods of time when compressed? I'm worried about my jacket and my sleeping bag, -- Any storage suggestions?
Some loft will be lost over time, feel free to air out as you make camp, if you arn't wearing it, hang it on a tree or line,
For down garments, especially if they can be custom made for you - don't order them with a waterproof/breathable shell. The breathability of the shell in dry conditions is less than a basic nylon fabric, and the shell limits the "comfort range" of the garment. If you do anything strenuous in a wp/b shelled down garment, the moisture stays in it far longer than a basic nylon fabric shell.
Order the wp/b shell separately. That way you can use it with other insulation layers as well, including fleece, which is a much better mate to wp/b shells than down.
Most shell's today "cheat" water a small cup of water from the bathroom dropped on a sleave will tell you pretty quickly. It might not be Goretex - but its still better than what was sold years ago. The cheap LLBean Jacket I mentioned passes that test.
I have the MontBell Alpine down jacket and love it. I use it in November, December and early spring AT hikes. I don't hike with it on – it is the first thing I go for when we get into camp after a long day. I like knowing I can put it on in an emergency if I get too cold for some reason during the day. I have a GoreTex shell that I can put over it if there is precip or crazy winds. You need to be careful of the shell fabric because it is very thin (what helps to make it so light).