View Full Version : Young kids on the trail
wrongway_08
10-03-2008, 11:28
So is it just me or does anyone else get tired of people bringing their young kids out and allowing them to yell, grab hiker stuff and general run around like little brats without telling them its uncool to act that way.
You know your sitting there, sun is setting, its peacefull, the fire is going, all is well....... then some family that think its cute when their youngster decides to toss the fire wood back in the woods ...."awwww, hes/she is sooo cute!" .... of course the lazy parent doesnt go get the wood or make the kid get it. Attention idiot parent .... your kid (s) is not cute - you need to be smacked for thinking its cute.
Then at night, the shelter is peacefull and that "cute" kid gets scared and starts cry'n, "oh, thats funny, he/she thinks the bears are going to get him/her .... how cute" AGAIN, he/she is NOT cute and is now keeping me up. Give the kid a bottle of Nyquil so he/she will fall asleep.
Its great when the kids go through everyones crap because they have not been told to not touch every damn thing in sight. To the parent : its not cute when my crap falls on the ground and gets wet because your kid wanted to see it.
Its rude to think that everyone thinks your snot nosed brat is cute and the trouble they cause is okay because they are "learning" - well let them "learn with your junk at home.
I think these parents and their kids should tent and let the shelter be used by well mannered hikers and their dogs.
I have to say I haven't seen many young kids in shelters.
Small kids can't walk nearly as far as dogs can.
Lone Wolf
10-03-2008, 11:48
simple. don't stay in or near shelters.
jersey joe
10-03-2008, 11:49
I think most people can tolerate bad kids far more then they can tolerate bad parents.
sasquatch2014
10-03-2008, 11:50
Now now Wrongway. Not all of us think that the kid is being cute. when My son does something like that I know he is being a little ***** but my uneasy smile on my face is just masking my embarrassment and the thoughtful look in my eye is really just me thinking how I can get him out of eye sight and "educate" him.;) Now and days when we get to a shelter even when we are not staying there he knows its his job to go and find firewood for the hikers that will be coming by. I subscribe to the theory that a very very tired child causes less trouble.
Midway Sam
10-03-2008, 11:52
Hmmmm.... I thought that this thread was going to be about the pot smokin' drunkard 18-21 year olds I met at Hawk Mtn. shelter who ruined a perfectly good evening on the AT with my two boys (8 and 10 at the time). My 10yo picked up all their beer cans and empty liquor bottles and we packed them out.
Everyone has their own perspective I suppose.
Blissful
10-03-2008, 11:56
I don't think I ever saw little kids at shelters, maybe a few young teens on occasion, but they were fine.
At any rate, that's when you go seek out a nice place to tent.
lonehiker
10-03-2008, 12:03
Well....why didn't you just tell the "cute" kid to take his hands off of your "*****" (stuff)?
I find it useful to remember that not all folks like kids in their space, just as not all folks deal well with dogs in that space.
Therefore, just as with dogs, parents backpacking should carry one's own shelter, and use it, before being asked.
Parents aren't going to make high miles with a kid, and shouldn't try because the journey truly is the destination for a young kid.
Shelters might be a good thing for a kid in the evening to visit, but surely not to sleep in. It's just going to happen that a young kid is going to wake up in the night and need reassurance, even when they are disciplined to leave others' things alone.
Midway Sam
10-03-2008, 13:11
It's just going to happen that a young kid is going to wake up in the night and need reassurance.
Mine don't.
BipolarStroller
10-03-2008, 13:11
That's funny, I read AT Journals while in the thunderbox and I seen where the ATC got $35,000 to get kids on the trail, it' their world, we're just borrowing it. It takes a village to raise children to be members of society, good thing Wong Ways folks didn't take him hiking when he was a kid, maybe someone would have taught him it's rude to not be direct and talk smack on the internet about brats, or maybe not, just my opinion. And we don't use shelters, cuz the drunken pot heads would keep us up, you can have the shelter and all the mosquitoes and mice in it all to yourself, since you think you own the trail, haha? What? I laughed when I read his post........
Mine don't.
I thought that, until my wife told me I just slept through it. ;) Hopefully it's age dependent since mine's 5 and certainly doesn't wake up every night. She just will do that a lot, and so do her friends on sleepovers, so do unrelated folks I see out, so did I as a young Boy Scout, etc.
I do not think most parents of young kids are in a position in life where they can routinely take them out backpacking, so it's a novel experience to most kids to carry their things in the woods and sleep away from the ticking clock, cycling refrigerator, highway noise, etc.
So it's likely that a significant fraction of those young kids for whom backpacking is not a common experience, might exhibit behaviors not common to them under other circumstances, and not within the experience of many young adults not exposed to young children.
Kind of like: "My dog's never done THAT before!"
Accordingly, I still think the general advice for parents out with kids is to prepare to and use a tent and not to rely on the shelters.
Sad as it is to say, not only do other folks not necessarily like your dog, they aren't necessarily going to like my kid.
Surely, there will be particular exceptions to the general advice - just as there are to many other aspects of hiking.
Rather like: Just because oso loco might choose to ford the Kennebec, doesn't mean I'm going to, myself, in the presence of a serviceable alternative; and doesn't mean that folks talking generalities, would recommend fording to all others.
Lone Wolf
10-03-2008, 14:20
I find it useful to remember that not all folks like kids in their space, just as not all folks deal well with dogs in that space.
Therefore, just as with dogs, parents backpacking should carry one's own shelter, and use it, before being asked.
Shelters might be a good thing for a kid in the evening to visit, but surely not to sleep in.
bullcrap. shelters are first come, first served for humans regardless of age
JaxHiker
10-03-2008, 14:21
Seems like you should be ranting about irresponsible parents. Maybe I don't like your dog in my shelter.
Wow. I run into this sort of parental oblivion in the paved world all the time, but I've never had anything like this happen to me on the trail. Was this a common occurrence for you? Since I'm done raising my own kids, I find that I now have no inhibitions when it comes to correcting small children and/or their parents. I would have just spoken up then and there.
wrongway_08
10-03-2008, 14:52
That's funny, I read AT Journals while in the thunderbox and I seen where the ATC got $35,000 to get kids on the trail, it' their world, we're just borrowing it. It takes a village to raise children to be members of society, good thing Wong Ways folks didn't take him hiking when he was a kid, maybe someone would have taught him it's rude to not be direct and talk smack on the internet about brats, or maybe not, just my opinion. And we don't use shelters, cuz the drunken pot heads would keep us up, you can have the shelter and all the mosquitoes and mice in it all to yourself, since you think you own the trail, haha? What? I laughed when I read his post........
what, hua....... work on one train of thought at a time please. Finish each one before begining the next. Make the train of thoughts make sense . . . . . I heard the Urban journalist is giving $35,000 to get people to be able to have complete thoughts. Just my opinion. Haha? What? I am still laughn after reading your post.................
wrongway_08
10-03-2008, 15:00
Wow. I run into this sort of parental oblivion in the paved world all the time, but I've never had anything like this happen to me on the trail. Was this a common occurrence for you? Since I'm done raising my own kids, I find that I now have no inhibitions when it comes to correcting small children and/or their parents. I would have just spoken up then and there.
I am talking about the kids who even when you say something to the kids they dont stop and then the parents just look at you and they dont correct the kids either.
Most kids will stop, even when its me correcting them and not the parents - they have been tought respect.
I'll correct kids, parents and other adults anywhere.
Outrider
10-03-2008, 15:07
Regardless of how parents let their children act on the trail or at a shelter, who are you to say they don’t have the right to be there? Last time I checked the trail was there for everyone to use. Old, young, rude, kind, pot heads, and the like. Just because you don’t like the way someone acts does not give you the right to say that they don’t belong. Don’t get me wrong, I am not defending their behavior. But the fact of the matter is that it is not your place to pick and choose who gets to use the trail.
bloodmountainman
10-03-2008, 15:10
That's funny, I read AT Journals while in the thunderbox and I seen where the ATC got $35,000 to get kids on the trail, it' their world, we're just borrowing it. It takes a village to raise children to be members of society, good thing Wong Ways folks didn't take him hiking when he was a kid, maybe someone would have taught him it's rude to not be direct and talk smack on the internet about brats, or maybe not, just my opinion. And we don't use shelters, cuz the drunken pot heads would keep us up, you can have the shelter and all the mosquitoes and mice in it all to yourself, since you think you own the trail, haha? What? I laughed when I read his post........
My Wife and I raised up and taught our children...... no thanks to your "village". Please keep your damned village out of my living room!:mad:
wrongway_08
10-03-2008, 15:12
Regardless of how parents let their children act on the trail or at a shelter, who are you to say they don’t have the right to be there? Last time I checked the trail was there for everyone to use. Old, young, rude, kind, pot heads, and the like. Just because you don’t like the way someone acts does not give you the right to say that they don’t belong. Don’t get me wrong, I am not defending their behavior. But the fact of the matter is that it is not your place to pick and choose who gets to use the trail.
Who said they shouldnt be on the trail? I said they shouldnt be at the shelter if they are going to bother everyone, just like a badly behaved dog or a total a-hole adult hiker.
wrongway_08
10-03-2008, 15:15
My Wife and I raised up and taught our children...... no thanks to your "village". Please keep your damned village out of my living room!:mad:
Thank you for raising your childern, not pushing the responsibility onto the "village" ! :sun Wish more parents would do this - the world would be a better place. :cool:
bullcrap. shelters are first come, first served for humans regardless of age
yep, unfortunately, mice/spiders/vermin have other ideas on who's first. tenting away from the shelter solves a lot of issues
Yeah, loud kids can be annoying, but it comes with the territory. Like others said, avoid shelters or simply move further down the trail to remedy the situation.
wrongway_08
10-03-2008, 15:26
Yeah, loud kids can be annoying, but it comes with the territory. Like others said, avoid shelters or simply move further down the trail to remedy the situation.
hmm... then the first come first serve comes into play..... I was there first and they are the problem causers.
I have a problem with me having to move on because some inconsiderate people come in after me and think this behaivor is normal.
bloodmountainman
10-03-2008, 15:30
Thank you for raising your childern, not pushing the responsibility onto the "village" ! :sun Wish more parents would do this - the world would be a better place. :cool:
Thank you Wrongway.... thought I would get flamed for that one!!
I agree with you about these little "golden" children who do no wrong.
A product of "village" raised kids no doubt!!
It is good for self-esteem to be smashed! After a while, discipline takes over,
and self reliance emerges. Way too many parents and their offspring think the World revolves around them.
hmm... then the first come first serve comes into play..... I was there first and they are the problem causers.
I have a problem with me having to move on because some inconsiderate people come in after me and think this behaivor is normal.
I'm not saying it is right, but it is what it is. If it's not loud children, it could be drunken college kids, loud people arriving after dark, etc. Just another reason to camp 'off the beaten path'.
BipolarStroller
10-03-2008, 15:37
My Wife and I raised up and taught our children...... no thanks to your "village". Please keep your damned village out of my living room!:mad:
really ALL BY YOURSELF? no school, no doctors, no churches, no after school activities, chances are once they're old enough to escape your basement, you'll never see tham again and someone else will have to show them to be social, and as far as your living room, not in a million years
BipolarStroller
10-03-2008, 15:39
Thank you for raising your childern, not pushing the responsibility onto the "village" ! :sun Wish more parents would do this - the world would be a better place. :cool:
if you never have children, it will be, and that nyquil reference, is that what your momma did?
BipolarStroller
10-03-2008, 15:44
what, hua....... work on one train of thought at a time please. Finish each one before begining the next. Make the train of thoughts make sense . . . . . I heard the Urban journalist is giving $35,000 to get people to be able to have complete thoughts. Just my opinion. Haha? What? I am still laughn after reading your post.................
not one simple train, many, or is that too much for you to sort out?
and no it was pg 4o and i quote,"REI outreach coordinator Mark Nelson presents ATC chief operating officer Steve Paradis with a $35,000 grant to support getting youth on the trail"
written and published as above, maybe you should read something other than your own well thought out words, BAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
wrongway_08
10-03-2008, 15:44
if you never have children, it will be, and that nyquil reference, is that what your momma did?
Not only did "your momma" jokes go out in the early 70's but thats the best you could come up with? Come on - make me wanna think of a come back. :rolleyes:
wrongway_08
10-03-2008, 15:48
not one simple train, many, or is that too much for you to sort out?
and no it was pg 4o and i quote,"REI outreach coordinator Mark Nelson presents ATC chief operating officer Steve Paradis with a $35,000 grant to support getting youth on the trail"
written and published as above, maybe you should read something other than your own well thought out words, BAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
What are you talking about? I never said anything about the $35,000 grant not being real. Stop defending what you dont need to.
Seems to me that your "many" trains of thought got ahead of you.
Oh yea, I forgot... BAHA..a..ha.., forget it, its not worth wasting my breath.
The trail needs little kids on it, you need to instill a desire to be on the trail and have a respect for it. If you don’t let them experience and enjoy the outdoors they will not understand how important it is, and want to protect it when they are adults. And they will care much less what happens to it. We all argue about dogs, shelters, stoves and the like, but I think for all our differing opinions we all have a respect and desire to protect trails and outdoor places, we must instill this in our children.
There are so many things for kids to do, computers, game systems like Play Stations, it’s a good idea to get them interested in things other then electronic related while they are young and you can still shape their interests.
My son is now 17-years old and loves to camp, he and I have been camping together since he was 4-years old. He has a complete backpacking setup that he loves to use when we are out. I think he will continue to do it for the rest of his life.
dessertrat
10-03-2008, 16:49
I don't see that many small children out on the AT, probably because I seldom camp near roads, and most kids don't walk miles and miles with their parents. I did see a large youth group the other weekend on the AT (not cub scouts-- or at least not in uniform, but similar ages, with adult leaders, etc.) who were very polite and well behaved, some of them had never hiked before, they were carrying all their gear (a lot of it crappy and heavy gear), and had gone 8 miles one day and 8 miles the next. I could tell that they were bone tired, but they were also determined not to wimp out and very supportive of each other. It made me glad to see.
The trail needs little kids on it, you need to instill a desire to be on the trail and have a respect for it. If you don’t let them experience and enjoy the outdoors they will not understand how important it is, and want to protect it when they are adults. And they will care much less what happens to it. We all argue about dogs, shelters, stoves and the like, but I think for all our differing opinions we all have a respect and desire to protect trails and outdoor places, we must instill this in our children.
There are so many things for kids to do, computers, game systems like Play Stations, it’s a good idea to get them interested in things other then electronic related while they are young and you can still shape their interests.
My son is now 17-years old and loves to camp, he and I have been camping together since he was 4-years old. He has a complete backpacking setup that he loves to use when we are out. I think he will continue to do it for the rest of his life.
i dont think anyone gets what was being said?? whats being said is kids and parents who are disrespectful noisy and rude, parents that cannot control or are to wussy to control there kids should stay outside the shelter.. not off the trail.. nobody said that kids should not be allowed on the trail what are you all reading??
actually, what is being said is people hang at shelters, you cannot control people, if you don't like what is going on with the people at shelters, don't whine, leave. simple.
actually, what is being said is people hang at shelters, you cannot control people, if you don't like what is going on with the people at shelters, don't whine, leave. simple.
Says the TinMan, elsewhere...
1. Sleeping with strangers is creepy
2. Sleeping with mice is disgusting
3. Sleeping with snorers is not sleeping
Of course, this isn't "whining." These are serious grievances!!! Moral of the story: The other guy's complaint is always "whining." But when I complain, it's legit.
Says the TinMan, elsewhere...
1. Sleeping with strangers is creepy
2. Sleeping with mice is disgusting
3. Sleeping with snorers is not sleeping
Of course, this isn't "whining." These are serious grievances!!! Moral of the story: The other guy's complaint is always "whining." But when I complain, it's legit.
That ain't whining, that's called choice. Whining is complaining about other's choices.
Another good reason not to sleep in shelters: leave them for those who think sleeping with strangers, mice and snorers is cool.
WalkingStick75
10-04-2008, 08:14
Bad parenting makes bad kids. Personally the kids I have met on the trail were respectful probably because their parents were backpackers and good parents.
Never experienced anything bad regarding little kids on the trail. Love to see them, even if they don't have all the proper etiquette down yet - they're kids.
Fourteen, Fifteen, Sixteen year olds should have the etiquette down, and I expect them to act like adults. You know, police themselves, take appropriate action when they annoy others, give proper consideration to requests of their fellow hikers, and to feel free to make reasonable requests of these same fellow hikers. In other words, they should be old enough to know that if they want to be treated as adults, they need to act like adults. By far most I have met on the trail have acted better than a lot of the adults.
Sometimes large groups of young adults can get rowdy - one of the challenges of Scout or church groups. Some of these probably need more discipline imposed on them than they would if they were not a part of a group. But that has more to do with group dynamics than with individual behavior.
Keep the young people on the trail, and encourage more. They are the future supporters of the trail. Besides a 15 year old can lend a whole lot of muscle power when needed to rescue us old farts who want to keep hiking.:D
saimyoji
10-04-2008, 10:31
The young ones are the tastiest.
right?
River Runner
10-04-2008, 18:19
So is it just me or does anyone else get tired of people bringing their young kids out and allowing them to yell, grab hiker stuff and general run around like little brats without telling them its uncool to act that way.
I think its just you. I haven't had that problem.
If I did, I think I'd probably just pack up and move on & tent somewhere on my own. As others have said, we can't dictate who does and doesn't use shelters. Even ill mannered people have as much right to use them as anyone else - they are open to all, and if there's room the family with the kid has just as much right to stay there as the solo hiker who got there earlier.
Sorry that's happened to you, but its just one of the downfalls of choosing to stay in a shelter - you never know who your companions may be later.
Bulldawg
10-04-2008, 19:39
Way too many parents and their offspring think the World revolves around them.
Often times it is not the "parents" who have instilled this idea into our children. My kid's school makes all kids share supplies. NOTHING belongs to only my child. The supplies I buy are pooled together and handed out as needed. My daughter is not allowed to have a Hannah Montana notebook for example, because all the other girls might not be able to afford one. I had to go to a parent teacher conference the other day because my 6 year old son was biting on pencils. I was told it was upsetting other students because all the supplies were community property and my son was ruining the pencils. I sat there and thought, what in the hell has the world come to? I offered to buy a box of a thousand pencils if the worse thing the kid did all day was bite on some pencils. I was lectured to about how the supplies were community property and when my son destroyed that property it was disturbing other students and interfering with their learning. I think I know who is disturbed, those communists running the school system. Who is going to teach these kids about the real world. Everything they learn in school contradicts our teachings that life is not fair, that not everyone will have the same job for the same pay, and that if you want the nicest of things you had better be willing to work your a$$ off for it.
So........I do know parents who are irresponsible and teach their children that world revolves around them, but sometimes the blame it not always on the parents.
Dances with Mice
10-04-2008, 19:46
I really like seeing young kids on the trail. There aren't enough.
Complaining old farts, on the other hand, of them there are more than enough
Bulldawg
10-04-2008, 19:50
I really like seeing young kids on the trail. There aren't enough.
I think DWM can attest to the fact that at least one of my kids is a decent trail companion. She (and I) had a great night up on Springer with DWM back in April. Wouldn't mind doing it again soon.
Dances with Mice
10-04-2008, 19:54
I think DWM can attest to the fact that at least one of my kids is a decent trail companion. She (and I) had a great night up on Springer with DWM back in April. Wouldn't mind doing it again soon.Too true. And next weekend I'm going out with a workmate and his 10'ish year old. We can't leave until after the kid's soccer game.
Don't know where we're going yet, but we'll be out there.
Often times it is not the "parents" who have instilled this idea into our children. My kid's school makes all kids share supplies. NOTHING belongs to only my child. The supplies I buy are pooled together and handed out as needed. My daughter is not allowed to have a Hannah Montana notebook for example, because all the other girls might not be able to afford one. I had to go to a parent teacher conference the other day because my 6 year old son was biting on pencils. I was told it was upsetting other students because all the supplies were community property and my son was ruining the pencils. I sat there and thought, what in the hell has the world come to? I offered to buy a box of a thousand pencils if the worse thing the kid did all day was bite on some pencils. I was lectured to about how the supplies were community property and when my son destroyed that property it was disturbing other students and interfering with their learning. I think I know who is disturbed, those communists running the school system. Who is going to teach these kids about the real world. Everything they learn in school contradicts our teachings that life is not fair, that not everyone will have the same job for the same pay, and that if you want the nicest of things you had better be willing to work your a$$ off for it.
So........I do know parents who are irresponsible and teach their children that world revolves around them, but sometimes the blame it not always on the parents.
Thanks for being real in life.:)
Bulldawg
10-04-2008, 19:58
Too true. And next weekend I'm going out with a workmate and his 10'ish year old. We can't leave until after the kid's soccer game.
Don't know where we're going yet, but we'll be out there.
My 6 year old just joined Cub Scouts and I will have the entire crew (even the wife) on a two night camp out next weekend in Rabun County myself. I haven't car camped in like 4 years. I asked the cub master the other night if I could hammock up there and he looked at me like I had a booger hanging out of my nose or something. Then today at an event and he told me "It's supposed to rain Saturday night, I guess you won't be sleeping in that hammock will ya?". I was like "What does rain have to do with where and how I sleep?"
Anyway, we are looking forward to the trip. I hope I acclimate to car camping again fast. I think I going to carry all my stuff in my pack anyway. You have to wing yourself off backcountry camping I hear. I don't want to do too much too fast. I don't even have to worry about cooking, I won't know how to act!!
Hit me up when you are going out with another young kid, I'd love to join ya with one or two of mine!!
Dances with Mice
10-04-2008, 20:08
Cool. I'm thinking park at Gooch Gap then walk to G-Mtn shelter. Don't know yet, we're playing it by ear. Might even car camp at Winnie Scott or Dockery Lake.
We won't figure it out until we get there. But it will be fun.
River Runner
10-04-2008, 20:20
Often times it is not the "parents" who have instilled this idea into our children.
<SNIP>
So........I do know parents who are irresponsible and teach their children that world revolves around them, but sometimes the blame it not always on the parents.
Good point. 'Self-esteem' has been a big emphasis in youth programs and schools. Some schools were not requiring the students to be able to spell properly or use proper grammar in order to get good grades. The explanation was that the content and thinking were more important than spelling and grammar.
Too much self-esteem can be worse than too little.
Ah, Such a complex issue. Too many points of view. I'm disapponted that all this chatter about a "villiage" is not recognized by the administrators as politics, which they profess to ban. Perhaps they have not read, or heard about Hillary's best selling book. Not that I'm opposed. Just that I kind of hope, that at some point reality will be recognized.
Whatever. My youngest (of three) was on the trail by age of three. My oldest grandchild was on the trail at age seven, had done 300 miles by nine, and 600-700+ by age 11.
He's still dreaming at age 20+ something. But life as everybody has experienced gets in the way of dreams.
Weary
Bulldawg
10-04-2008, 20:45
Weary, I think you were the first one to interject the "P" word here?? Maybe some trolling on your part perhaps?
Please don't feed the trolls.
Weather holds next weekend, I plan to take my boys out for a couple nights... they asked me. :cool:
it was pg 4o and i quote,"REI outreach coordinator Mark Nelson presents ATC chief operating officer Steve Paradis with a $35,000 grant to support getting youth on the trail"
That sounds a little scary. Like the end of Paint Your Wagon when Lee Marvin leaves because civilisation is movin in. I've got nothing against kids on the trail, but I'd hate to see them change it to make it more kid friendly. So few places left for us miserable misfits to hide from the world.:-?
Bulldawg
10-04-2008, 21:35
That sounds a little scary. Like the end of Paint Your Wagon when Lee Marvin leaves because civilisation is movin in. I've got nothing against kids on the trail, but I'd hate to see them change it to make it more kid friendly. So few places left for us miserable misfits to hide from the world.:-?
I am pretty sure the trail ain't changing. I would be almost positive that the money would go towards gear and trips for kids.
.....! I think I know who is disturbed, those communists running the school system. Who is going to teach these kids about the real world. Everything they learn in school contradicts our teachings that life is not fair, that not everyone will have the same job for the same pay, and that if you want the nicest of things you had better be willing to work your a$$ off for it.
.....
A wise post. For a paragraph. And then a display of ignorance, that negated the message. Especially, this week. The world is far more complicated than communists and non-communists. Until we learn this, nothing very constructive is possible.
Weary
Bulldawg
10-04-2008, 21:55
A wise post. For a paragraph. And then a display of ignorance, that negated the message. Especially, this week. The world is far more complicated than communists and non-communists. Until we learn this, nothing very constructive is possible.
Weary
So you are trying to tell me that....no no nevermind........
Folks don't feed the trolls!! PLEASE!
aufgahoban
10-05-2008, 10:15
Often times it is not the "parents" who have instilled this idea into our children. My kid's school makes all kids share supplies. NOTHING belongs to only my child. The supplies I buy are pooled together and handed out as needed. My daughter is not allowed to have a Hannah Montana notebook for example, because all the other girls might not be able to afford one. I had to go to a parent teacher conference the other day because my 6 year old son was biting on pencils. I was told it was upsetting other students because all the supplies were community property and my son was ruining the pencils. I sat there and thought, what in the hell has the world come to? I offered to buy a box of a thousand pencils if the worse thing the kid did all day was bite on some pencils. I was lectured to about how the supplies were community property and when my son destroyed that property it was disturbing other students and interfering with their learning. I think I know who is disturbed, those communists running the school system. Who is going to teach these kids about the real world. Everything they learn in school contradicts our teachings that life is not fair, that not everyone will have the same job for the same pay, and that if you want the nicest of things you had better be willing to work your a$$ off for it.
So........I do know parents who are irresponsible and teach their children that world revolves around them, but sometimes the blame it not always on the parents.
Why is your child still attending that school???????? That's YOUR choice to send him there. (or if he's out on the trail, he can chew on all the sticks he wants to.)
bloodmountainman
10-05-2008, 10:16
A wise post. For a paragraph. And then a display of ignorance, that negated the message. Especially, this week. The world is far more complicated than communists and non-communists. Until we learn this, nothing very constructive is possible.
Weary
No display of ignorance . Everything Bulldawg posted is dead-on correct!
The job of parental teaching HAS BEEN TAKEN OVER by a way too Liberal Educational System , intent on indoctrinization instead of education.
Until we learn this, nothing very constructive is possible.
Kids on the trail, camping, fishing, hunting, or any other outdoor activty is the best way for a parent and child to spend time together. It is a good chance for a parent to Over-ride the nonsense thier children are exposed to in Public Education. Real teaching is best done at home, by parents.
Bulldawg
10-05-2008, 10:24
Why is your child still attending that school???????? That's YOUR choice to send him there. (or if he's out on the trail, he can chew on all the sticks he wants to.)
There is no such thing as school choice in Georgia young lady. You are required to send your child to the school in the district in which you reside. The only other choice you have is homeschooling or private school. I have looked into private schools here. Cheapest one is $15K per year, I have two kids, no way that is gonna happen and still make the bills. Homeschooling is great if you are independently wealthy or one spouse makes enough to pay all the bills. But on the other hand, I also think a child needs lots of interaction with other children.
We are not rich by any means at my house, so I am stuck with what we have. No choice, no other option other to fight what the schools teach each and every day.
I deal with this by not giving my children everything they want. I just returned from the store with my 6 year old son. He asked for 4 things while in the store; he returned with none. He knows he gets rewarded for good behavior, good grades, and chores. But he is a boy and still pushes the limits and tries to get things when they aren't due him. It just takes parents that stand up to the pressure. Kids can be tough. My daughter tells me an awful lot that I don't love her when she don't get her way. She is 8 going on 16. But she always shortly apologizes and knows she was wrong. They are kids. They are going to push authority, they are going to test the limits. I'd rather my kids push authority and test limits than be robot sheeples who fall in line and become hypnotized the way the school system desires.
Actually, the private schools are worse than the public schools, at least around here. Full of rich problem kids and the teachers are paid less, mainly cause you don't need the same credentials and they cannot get a job in the low quality public schools. Tutors do well around here, but good luck finding a quality tutor.
sasquatch2014
10-05-2008, 11:19
The young ones are the tastiest.
right?
I love children...............
But I can never finish one by myself.
Some say that I have the heart of a small child...............
I keep it in a jar in my desk.
splash1986
10-05-2008, 11:26
Speaking as someone who was a young'n not too long ago, i'll throw my .02 in, even though I don't have kids and don't plan on it for a while. Schools fill their purpose (sometimes), but the majority of education begins at HOME, with the parents. That is who will instill morals, values, and life lessons in children, no matter what they learn in school. So parents---- please, please, please introduce kids to the outdoors early and often- whether it be hiking, hunting, scouts, fishing, etc. I was introduced to all of these very early on by my dad, and for that I am extremely thankful. I can't imagine what my life would be like without the lessons I've learned from nature and the outdoors, many of which carry over into everyday, "civilized" life. So bring on the kids!
sasquatch2014
10-05-2008, 11:57
Speaking of schools and young children about 2 years ago I got a call from my sons teacher because during recess he was eating bugs out on the play ground. Now mind you we are not talking a really young kid at the time he was in 4th grade. He had been watching discovery channel where they were talking about how insects were a prime source of protein for a number of cultures. He was doing it more to freak people out than anything, and he succeeded with the teacher. When she called I think she expected me share her horror in this behavior. I began to tell her about the "educational" tv that he and I had watched together and that he simply was looking to share this information with others. I don't get a lot of calls from the school anymore. :-?
Speaking of schools and young children about 2 years ago I got a call from my sons teacher because during recess he was eating bugs out on the play ground. Now mind you we are not talking a really young kid at the time he was in 4th grade. He had been watching discovery channel where they were talking about how insects were a prime source of protein for a number of cultures. He was doing it more to freak people out than anything, and he succeeded with the teacher. When she called I think she expected me share her horror in this behavior. I began to tell her about the "educational" tv that he and I had watched together and that he simply was looking to share this information with others. I don't get a lot of calls from the school anymore. :-?
I once explained to my students that worms are a solid source of protein in a survival situation and are relatively easy to find, as long as you clean them up enough that the dirt on them doesn't give you diarhea. They didn't really believe me. So a few days later, after a rain, there were LOTS of worms on the basketball court. My students started talking about how I wouldn't eat one. So OF COURSE I cleaned one up and downed him.
Of the nine boys out there, all but two proceeded to down a worm. It's so much fun sometimes when you work in an all special-ed school.:o
I think I know who is disturbed, those communists running the school system.
And this from a "moderator." The inmates are running the asylum. Mr. Moderator, please read and familiarize yourself with the TOS.
bloodmountainman
10-06-2008, 11:39
And this from a "moderator." The inmates are running the asylum. Mr. Moderator, please read and familiarize yourself with the TOS.
What do you call school supplies being "community property"?
There is an underlining message there!
What do you call school supplies being "community property"?
There is an underlining message there!
Yup. It's known as politics, a banned subject on WB.
There's plenty of elbow room for everyone on the trail no matter how irritating. The people who are the most irritating are the people who don't realize this. No one has any right to expect a quiet night in the shelter. If kids don't cry you can expect some noisy bodily functions or latecomer or hikers staying up later than you socializing. When some jerk in a shelter tells me to be quiet because he wants to sleep I simply tell him no. When he wakes up at 5 am clanking pots and pans and noisily packing, that's when I fill him in on the idea that he's an inconsiderate jerk. A good night's sleep is your own responsibilty and if you don't get it it's your fault. Period. Tents aren't that expensive.
Public school is a safety net concept. You are responsible for educating your kids, not the state. Look at our government! You expect them to educate your kids properly? That is ridiculous.
As a school teacher, I took junior high age kids backpacking quite a bit. Like adults, some were great others were a pain. One time a couple of the kids were running around the campsite, so I called them over and gave the usual saftey speech about why running around in the wilderness was not a good idea....fall, break something, and you are a long way fom an emergency room,..etc. Having listend attentively, the boys said they understood. They then turned around and RAN back to their tent!
Luckily my own three kids were quiet and repsectful around adults and one of the first times my wife and I took them camping, we spent one night at a Hut in NH and another night in a tentsite of our own down the trail. They enjoyed the time tenting with us much more than having to behave around the other adults in the hut and put up with strangers who snoared. After that we almost always camped alone. With the school kids, I tried to take the trails "less traveled" and slept in the woods.
NICKTHEGREEK
10-06-2008, 12:50
I once explained to my students that worms are a solid source of protein in a survival situation and are relatively easy to find, as long as you clean them up enough that the dirt on them doesn't give you diarhea. They didn't really believe me. So a few days later, after a rain, there were LOTS of worms on the basketball court. My students started talking about how I wouldn't eat one. So OF COURSE I cleaned one up and downed him.
Of the nine boys out there, all but two proceeded to down a worm. It's so much fun sometimes when you work in an all special-ed school.:o
And you get your picture in the yearbook twice- Once under class of xx and later under faculty:D
This past weekend I was out with a couple of people who haven't done all that much backpacking. For both of them, it was their first experience with stealth camping. We loaded up on water and then hiked on to a flattish area, went off the Trail, and set up on deep beds of dry leaves. They were both amazed--soft, quiet, clean, etc. I think they're both addicted. I doubt I'll get them to stay in an established campsite, let alone a shelter, anytime again soon.
BTW, all of us are mature adults who value a good night's sleep.
Seriously, unless you are seeking out the companionship of others--whatever age, gender, and training in being considerate of others--stealth camping is the way to go.
If you're going the group camping route, sometimes you'll win (and meet some interesting new people), and sometimes you'll lose (have a real jerk or two around for a few hours), and sometimes you'll draw. Just accept it, and move on.
Public school is a safety net concept. You are responsible for educating your kids, not the state. Look at our government! You expect them to educate your kids properly? That is ridiculous.
What does this have to do with kids on the trail? C'mon bfitz, cut the politics already.
Bulldawg
10-06-2008, 12:58
What does this have to do with kids on the trail? C'mon bfitz, cut the politics already.
I don't think this is politics. No one here even mentioned the P word until Weary brought it into the discussion (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=706330&postcount=50). No where in this thread is there mention of Dems vs. Repubs, etc. It started as a discussion about kids on the trail, evolved into a discussion of how the trail is a good place for kids to teach them things the school system refuses to teach them, then into how kids are being taught these days.
It is only you and Weary who want to keep screaming the "P" word. So, if discussion of how kids are being shortchanged these days by public schools and how the trail can help overcome some of those shortfalls bothers you or offends you, I think you can always choose not to click on this thread and move onto another thread that interests you. Maybe this one. (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=41898)
No one has any right to expect a quiet night in the shelter... When some jerk in a shelter tells me to be quiet because he wants to sleep I simply tell him no. When he wakes up at 5 am clanking pots and pans and noisily packing, that's when I fill him in on the idea that he's an inconsiderate jerk.
This strike anyone else as inconsistent? :rolleyes::D
taildragger
10-06-2008, 13:35
On to the original topic at hand.
I've got no qualms with kids in the woods. If they are annoying, I just slip past them and let them be, hoping that eventually they'll grow up to be someone who respects the woods. I'd rather see kids out in the woods than getting fat playing some wii.
This strike anyone else as inconsistent? :rolleyes::D
yeah, i saw that. i think he meant "also, an inconsiderate..." :)
So is it just me or does anyone else get tired of people bringing their young kids out and allowing them to yell, grab hiker stuff and general run around like little brats without telling them its uncool to act that way.
You know your sitting there, sun is setting, its peacefull, the fire is going, all is well....... then some family that think its cute when their youngster decides to toss the fire wood back in the woods ...."awwww, hes/she is sooo cute!" .... of course the lazy parent doesnt go get the wood or make the kid get it. Attention idiot parent .... your kid (s) is not cute - you need to be smacked for thinking its cute.
Then at night, the shelter is peacefull and that "cute" kid gets scared and starts cry'n, "oh, thats funny, he/she thinks the bears are going to get him/her .... how cute" AGAIN, he/she is NOT cute and is now keeping me up. Give the kid a bottle of Nyquil so he/she will fall asleep.
Its great when the kids go through everyones crap because they have not been told to not touch every damn thing in sight. To the parent : its not cute when my crap falls on the ground and gets wet because your kid wanted to see it.
Its rude to think that everyone thinks your snot nosed brat is cute and the trouble they cause is okay because they are "learning" - well let them "learn with your junk at home.
I think these parents and their kids should tent and let the shelter be used by well mannered hikers and their dogs.
is this what you were talking about?:
And this from a "moderator." The inmates are running the asylum. Mr. Moderator, please read and familiarize yourself with the TOS.
Yup. It's known as politics, a banned subject on WB.
I don't think this is politics. No one here even mentioned the P word until Weary brought it into the discussion (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=706330&postcount=50). No where in this thread is there mention of Dems vs. Repubs, etc. It started as a discussion about kids on the trail, evolved into a discussion of how the trail is a good place for kids to teach them things the school system refuses to teach them, then into how kids are being taught these days.
It is only you and Weary who want to keep screaming the "P" word. So, if discussion of how kids are being shortchanged these days by public schools and how the trail can help overcome some of those shortfalls bothers you or offends you, I think you can always choose not to click on this thread and move onto another thread that interests you. Maybe this one. (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=41898)
yep, nothing political about kids on the trail or in school. people need to stop trying to insert it here or anywhere kids are discussed.
max patch
10-06-2008, 13:42
This strike anyone else as inconsistent? :rolleyes::D
He's the type of hiker I hate to run into on the trail. You may recall that he also thinks alcohol parties are ok at shelters and that he wished that hiker feeds were at every shelter.
And he's wrong. Everyone "should" expect to get a good nights sleep at a shelter. Thats what they're there for. But because many many hikers are inconsiderate in shelters its best to take a tent and avoid sleeping in them whenever possible.
Alligator
10-06-2008, 13:42
Could we keep this thread on topic please? Thanks;).
He's the type of hiker I hate to run into on the trail. You may recall that he also thinks alcohol parties are ok at shelters and that he wished that hiker feeds were at every shelter.
And he's wrong. Everyone "should" expect to get a good nights sleep at a shelter. Thats what they're there for. But because many many hikers are inconsiderate in shelters its best to take a tent and avoid sleeping in them whenever possible.
everyone has a different expectation and preconceived notion of what the shelter "rules" are. well, there ain't no rules, there is only common sense and civility. since these are in short supply at shelters, i would hope people could at least show some civility and behave appropriately when kids are present.
Bulldawg
10-06-2008, 13:55
But back to the topic at hand. I LOVE seeing kids on the trail. I always try to stop and talk to them, ask them where they are going, what they have enjoyed about the hike, etc. I LOVE seeing kids on the trail, I love talking to them learning from them, them perhaps learning from me. But I have kids and have that innate ability to "turn them off" when are getting on my nerves.
But back to the topic at hand. I LOVE seeing kids on the trail. I always try to stop and talk to them, ask them where they are going, what they have enjoyed about the hike, etc. I LOVE seeing kids on the trail, I love talking to them learning from them, them perhaps learning from me. But I have kids and have that innate ability to "turn them off" when are getting on my nerves.
Ditto.
...And I also have the ability to speak up directly to any kid who is annoying me, as in, "You need to stay away from my stove because you will spill my food and start a fire if you get too close to it."
Ive been hiking since i was a child (with a school backpack with a sleeping bag, some water and a pad tied to it. The problem lies not with the child, but with the bad parents.
All you have to do is see what is being taught in schools, and how much MOST parents actually care (about zero). Respect is not taught any longer, and authority figures are no longer authorities. Most children are taught that they are the center of the universe, and are never diciplined. It scares me to think about where society will be as a whole in maybe the short future.
In Short: Bring kids on the trail, and use it as a learning tool about how life actually works, and not how the "community" wants it to work.
Ive been hiking since i was a child (with a school backpack with a sleeping bag, some water and a pad tied to it. The problem lies not with the child, but with the bad parents.
All you have to do is see what is being taught in schools, and how much MOST parents actually care (about zero). Respect is not taught any longer, and authority figures are no longer authorities. Most children are taught that they are the center of the universe, and are never diciplined. It scares me to think about where society will be as a whole in maybe the short future.
In Short: Bring kids on the trail, and use it as a learning tool about how life actually works, and not how the "community" wants it to work.
that's a pretty big generalization. are you a parent, teacher, or involved in education in some way? in my experience as a parent and friend of other parents, most do care, a lot in fact. and parents do discipline their kids. sure some do a better job than others and the best advice i have heard on discipline is not to ground them or deny them stuff, but make them do chores above and beyond the norm.
and I agree, trail time, as well as sports, are valuable learning tools.
So is it just me or does anyone else get tired of people bringing their young kids out and allowing them to yell, grab hiker stuff and general run around like little brats without telling them its uncool to act that way.
You know your sitting there, sun is setting, its peacefull, the fire is going, all is well....... then some family that think its cute when their youngster decides to toss the fire wood back in the woods ...."awwww, hes/she is sooo cute!" .... of course the lazy parent doesnt go get the wood or make the kid get it. Attention idiot parent .... your kid (s) is not cute - you need to be smacked for thinking its cute.
Then at night, the shelter is peacefull and that "cute" kid gets scared and starts cry'n, "oh, thats funny, he/she thinks the bears are going to get him/her .... how cute" AGAIN, he/she is NOT cute and is now keeping me up. Give the kid a bottle of Nyquil so he/she will fall asleep.
Its great when the kids go through everyones crap because they have not been told to not touch every damn thing in sight. To the parent : its not cute when my crap falls on the ground and gets wet because your kid wanted to see it.
Its rude to think that everyone thinks your snot nosed brat is cute and the trouble they cause is okay because they are "learning" - well let them "learn with your junk at home.
I think these parents and their kids should tent and let the shelter be used by well mannered hikers and their dogs.
I'm with you on the bad parent= bad kid thing, Rick, but I have to admit that I'm in agreement with poster #3, too.
On the flip side, at least the kids are exposed to the beauties of nature, as long as they aren't preoccupied with trying to impress the adults with their cuteness.
As a kid, I was taken camping without my consent (I was too young, really, to protest). I learned to love the woods and to allow others the same grace to adjust that I was shown.
Man made structures in the woods attract those who (not surprisingly) are dependent upon them while at home in the sity/'burbs, etc. AND those city/'burbanites bring with them the same bad habits that they get away with at home.
"Teach your children well" (CS&N) - and other people's children (if you can).
max patch
10-06-2008, 15:18
If you want the trail (in particular) and the woods (in general) protected 20 years from now then you want to see kids and scouts in the woods today.
If you want the trail (in particular) and the woods (in general) protected 20 years from now then you want to see kids and scouts in the woods today.
EXCELLENT point!
Dances with Mice
10-06-2008, 19:48
... Everyone "should" expect to get a good nights sleep at a shelter. Thats what they're there for. Not quite, but that may be a common misperception. Shelters provide a dry area. That's all.
If you expect a good night's sleep go to a hotel.
Blissful
10-06-2008, 20:02
Not quite, but that may be a common misperception. Shelters provide a dry area. That's all.
If you expect a good night's sleep go to a hotel.
Or tent! The snoring and other noises alone will drive you away...the heck with the kids! (I've had to abandon a shelter at night after a storm because of snoring and coughing) :)
This strike anyone else as inconsistent? :rolleyes::DMaybe my wording wasn't perfect, but it points out the jerks hypocrisy, expecting everyone else in the shelter to to be quiet when he wants to sleep but expects them to tolerate his noise when they want to sleep (I have to get an early start!). I almost never sleep in shelters, but I do like to hang out and chat with those that do. And after I've kept that guy awake for a while, I go back to my tent so I don't have to listen to him snore.
Maybe my wording wasn't perfect, but it points out the jerks hypocrisy, expecting everyone else in the shelter to to be quiet when he wants to sleep but expects them to tolerate his noise when they want to sleep (I have to get an early start!). I almost never sleep in shelters, but I do like to hang out and chat with those that do. And after I've kept that guy awake for a while, I go back to my tent so I don't have to listen to him snore.
good to hear... you were scaring me :D
I have a pet peeve about folks who tell me what to do on the trail, but especially someone who wants quiet early in the evening but insists on sleeping in close quarters with others. It's moronic.
I have a pet peeve about folks who tell me what to do on the trail, but especially someone who wants quiet early in the evening but insists on sleeping in close quarters with others. It's moronic.
no need to get worked up. trails a big place, plenty of room for all hikers... unless you plan to stay at a shelter, then it is first come, first served, which works fine ... if you don't have any pet peeves. :)
taildragger
10-06-2008, 20:34
no need to get worked up. trails a big place, plenty of room for all hikers... unless you plan to stay at a shelter, then it is first come, first served, which works fine ... if you don't have any pet peeves. :)
You could quickly rid the shelter of other people if you let your pet bobcat come in with you. Once he growls at them and takes his "death from above" perch, they'll get his message and leave. Plus, only dogs need to be leashed, bobcats can free range.
Don't even get me started on the "our group has the shelter tonight" people when there's clearly room. However, every time a child has a chance to experience the trail it's a good thing, even if their parents are the jerks hogging the shelter.
Not quite, but that may be a common misperception. Shelters provide a dry area. That's all. .....
Well except when you get stuck under the leak in the roof of the shelter, which happens to someone in almost every serious rain in most shelters.
Weary
NICKTHEGREEK
10-07-2008, 06:50
This strike anyone else as inconsistent? :rolleyes::D
:-?:-?:-?:-?:-?:-?
Jim Adams
10-07-2008, 09:00
The trail needs little kids on it, you need to instill a desire to be on the trail and have a respect for it. If you don’t let them experience and enjoy the outdoors they will not understand how important it is, and want to protect it when they are adults. And they will care much less what happens to it. We all argue about dogs, shelters, stoves and the like, but I think for all our differing opinions we all have a respect and desire to protect trails and outdoor places, we must instill this in our children.
There are so many things for kids to do, computers, game systems like Play Stations, it’s a good idea to get them interested in things other then electronic related while they are young and you can still shape their interests.
My son is now 17-years old and loves to camp, he and I have been camping together since he was 4-years old. He has a complete backpacking setup that he loves to use when we are out. I think he will continue to do it for the rest of his life.
Very nicely put!
I took my son car camping when he was 3 weeks old....he is now 35 y/o and camps, canoes and helps protect the wilderness every chance that he gets.
I myself don't care to see dogs on the trail but I have alot of friends who hike with their dogs and I see the enjoyment it gives them and I do understand because of my cat BUT neither your dog or my cat is going to vote or speak out for environmental protection but I'll bet that kid does when he grows up!:-?
geek
TJ aka Teej
10-07-2008, 10:37
I think these parents and their kids should tent and let the shelter be used by well mannered hikers and their dogs.
Stooping to posting a stealth dog thread? You can do better, WW.
wrongway_08
10-07-2008, 21:25
Stooping to posting a stealth dog thread? You can do better, WW.
6 freaking pages for someone to notice!!!!!!! MAN I wish I could give you a prize, was wondering if anyone would catch it. :D
Wow, I almost gave up hope!! - You rock! :banana
By the way, dogs are better then young kids at the shelter, they smell better and act better!!!
wrongway_08
10-07-2008, 21:31
http://ts4.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=2475372120431&id=e24c3c200099a42b14d7705790ce4694
6 pages to finally get a bite...... you all disapoint me!!!! :p
I have to say I haven't seen many young kids in shelters.
Small kids can't walk nearly as far as dogs can.
Come on...I remarked on the dog thing in the second post!
taildragger
10-07-2008, 21:40
http://ts4.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=2475372120431&id=e24c3c200099a42b14d7705790ce4694
6 pages to finally get a bite...... you all disapoint me!!!! :p
I'd just been wondering if these was going to deteriorate into leash laws with kids, I say that all children below 5'2" or 16, whatever comes first, must be leashed.
wrongway_08
10-07-2008, 21:42
Hmmm, I'm a little :o now. Hey... the only ones that picked up on it were the MODS..... thats why they run things.... nothing gets pass them :D.
wrongway_08
10-07-2008, 21:43
I'd just been wondering if these was going to deteriorate into leash laws with kids, I say that all children below 5'2" or 16, whatever comes first, must be leashed.
Now thats what I'm talking about.. :cool:
taildragger
10-07-2008, 22:06
Nothing worse than the smell of a wet child in a shelter, or so I've been told since I don't stay in shelters, but I can imagine that it makes the barking spiders look tame, even when they hit home runs