White gas along the trail [Archive]

The Old Fhart

03-19-2004, 15:28

If you would like to see stove reviews, try http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Cook%20Gear/Stoves/.
They even review the Pepsi can stoves you can make.

I found a new MSR XGK stove in a hawk shop for $20 and added that to my large collection of stoves. The XGK will burn almost any fuel and weighs about 32oz. with a full small fuel bottle (cookset weight not included). I had to use unleaded gas in it at Elkwallow wayside in the Shenandoahs but it doesn't seem to burn quite as clean on unleaded gas as it does on white gas. My all time favorite white gas stove is the Svea 123 with a pump. With a full tank and nested inside a large stainless steel cup I use for the pot, it weighs about 24oz.. The Trangia is quiet, burns alcohol, and weighs about 16oz. with cookset and is a lot more rugged than a Pepsi can stove which would work about the same.

If you are going to run into cold weather I'd highly recommend any kind of pressurized white gas stove. The alcohol type stoves and the butane stoves just don't work well in the cold. While weight is generally a consideration, I want a stove that is reliable under any conditions, has widely available fuel, and is fast. The ability to simmer isn't even on my list of requirements. After a few days on the trail you just want to heat and eat. Simmering only wastes fuel and prolongs the wait to eat.

gravityman

03-19-2004, 15:51

If you are going to run into cold weather I'd highly recommend any kind of pressurized white gas stove. The alcohol type stoves and the butane stoves just don't work well in the cold. While weight is generally a consideration, I want a stove that is reliable under any conditions, has widely available fuel, and is fast. The ability to simmer isn't even on my list of requirements. After a few days on the trail you just want to heat and eat. Simmering only wastes fuel and prolongs the wait to eat.

A couple of myths to debug here. First, iso-butane stoves are the stove of choice for mountaineers. They do perform just fine under extreme cold. You just have to know how to get them to perform. Check out how msr rates their stoves for high altitude mountaineering if you don't believe me : http://www.msrcorp.com/stoves/simmerlite.asp and click on stove comparison chart.

There are several tricks:
1) Sleep with the cansiter. This will solve most problems. Worked down into the teens for me. Never tested it lower.
2) Once you have the canister going, heat up some water in it, and then place the canister and stove into this water (only good if you have something extra to put the water in. My wife's dinner bowl (tupperware) works for us.
3) Build a heat exchanger. just wrap some copper wire around the canister and then close to the flame. This will conduct the heat to the canister. Be very careful or you will end up exploding the canister! This will eliminate the need for the hot water.

When we left the canister out all night in the mid teens, it still light in the morning, but it took a little while to warm the water up. Once the water was steaming, we put the canister stove in it, and it started cooking full blast.

Next, simmering DOES NOT waste fuel. In fact, it conserves it. By only putting enough heat (i.e. energy, i.e. fuel) into the water to make it boil, you are still cooking at the same temperature (boiling water is always at 100C at sea level, no matter how hard you try to make it boil hotter :) This is why water is GREAT to cook in. Very controlled temperature) and you aren't wasting fuel by turning more water into vapor.

Gravity Man

deeddawg

03-19-2004, 16:21

The alcohol type stoves and the butane stoves just don't work well in the cold. While weight is generally a consideration, I want a stove that is reliable under any conditions, has widely available fuel, and is fast.

Shhhhhh!!!! Don't tell my alcohol stove it doesn't work well in the cold. So far I've shielded it from discovering this "truth" and it's been quite happy to work well down into the low 20's and after a 19F overnight low. Haven't personally been out in lower temps so I don't have direct experience with anything lower than this.

Sub-zero temps and such, yeah I'd probably leave the alcohol stove home. But for the AT in most times thru's will be on it, alcohol should work just fine.

Also, speed-to-boil is overrated IMHO. A couple minutes one way or another IMHO is not worth the extra weight. While I'm not familiar with the XGK, comparing alcohol to a buddy's Dragonfly I'm halfway done cooking dinner before he's got it lit.

Funny how setup and teardown times never seem to be a part of the equation in "which is faster". :bse

deeddawg

03-19-2004, 16:27

Next, simmering DOES NOT waste fuel. In fact, it conserves it. By only putting enough heat (i.e. energy, i.e. fuel) into the water to make it boil, you are still cooking at the same temperature (boiling water is always at 100C at sea level, no matter how hard you try to make it boil hotter :)

Not to nitpick, Gman, but could you compare the fuel usage of simmering on the stove to the fuel usage of putting the boiling-hot pot into a cozy and letting it "simmer" there?
:jump

Sorry, couldn't resist. I'll agree that for most purposes the fuel usage isn't a big deal one way or the other. But one of the two does use more fuel than the other... Since switching to alcohol stoves and using a cozy I've come to realize that for the meals I cook simmering on the stove is unneccessary and can be accomplished fine in the cozy.

The Old Fhart

03-19-2004, 17:59

The problem with trying to keep a post short is that you can’t explain every detail of what you actually mean.

Gravityman is right saying isobutane works at colder temps but I said butane and I have put a butane canister in the freezer and the pressure dropped to zilch and it was useless. I also say that gravityman helps to prove the point that white gas is better. Read the convoluted proceedure he recommends to get the isobutane canisters to work at low temps, that is something I don't want to worry about at the end of a long cold day. I want something simple and readily available. Finding the correct canister for your butane or isobutane stove will be a lot harder than finding white gas or unleaded gas.

As for simmering, I don’t “simmer” water. That generally is used as a cooking term relating to soups, etc. Simmering wastes fuel because after you get your meal to a boil you cut the heat back and simmer it to help bring out the flavors or whatever. I’m not quite as concerned about the time to boil from stove to stove as long as it is reasonable.

As to comparing alcohol to white gas stoves, yes they are simple but I still maintain in a side by side test, the white gas will win every time. I ask that you read reviews of stoves, like the link I posted before, and decide what is most important to you. The other posts here have raised valid points but I’m comfortable with the choice I made. I have about 30 stoves, some up to 70 years old, and have used them all depending on the conditions, length of the hike, whatever. I still use pressurized white gas on the A.T. or when it is going to be cold.

gravityman

03-19-2004, 18:15

That's right, it's a personal thing. Some people find handling a blackened pot nasty (i.e. alchohol and white gas stove) while others don't like to deal with the setup of a white gas. While others don't want to have to deal with canister stove while it is cold. But it's important to know the REAL limitations of the stove before making a decision. Saying "butane and alcohol stoves just don't work well in the cold" really isn't true. They are just more hassel than you are willing to put up with... And yes, butane doesn't work as well as isobutane. Although almost all canisters are isobutane now... I don't think that I have seen anything else for stoves...

Yes, obviously a cozy is more fuel efficient than simmer, DUH :) I was just talking about using simmering for fuel conservation when the food is a longer than usual cooking time. But cozying is a good alternative (although I would be interested in a weight anaylsis of fuel used verses the weight of a cozy too... I bet they come out pretty gosh darn close)

Anyway, I use all three, although the white gas stove isn't getting much use now adays. What I am going to use on the long trail this summer, I'm still not sure. Cansiter or alcohol. Weight wise they are very much the same. The canister is a little easier to use, the alcohol is a little easier to get fuel for. Sigh... I only have 4 months to decide :)

Gravity man

The Old Fhart

03-19-2004, 20:01

Here is some more info on stoves that will help those trying to make a decision although the original post was just asking about the availability of white gas along the trail. I assume that Roee Dotan has a stove and just wanted to know how difficult it would be to find. That being said, the following links will give some comparative information on the different types of stoves. Also keep in mind that I didn’t just say, off the top of my head, that alcohol and canister stoves don’t work “well” in the cold, it is well proven in comparative testing and I’ll defer to science over emotion. Maybe saying “as well” would be more acceptable to the devotees of those stoves.

Checking http://www.gearreview.com/stovereview98.asp gives this info:

“Most canisters cannot be carried on planes or shipped through commercial companies, so you must be sure to bring enough, or call ahead to see if the destination has them available. Generally, canister fuels do not perform as well as liquid fuels in cold temperatures.
Liquid fuel stoves utilize white gas, kerosene, or automobile gas-occasionally specific stoves allow you to burn other types of liquid fuel. In our tests we used white gas. These stoves burn well at high elevations and perform great in cold weather. The down side of liquid fuel is the potential for spilling when refilling the fuel bottle, and the need to pressurize the fuel through some sort of pumping.“
And on http://art.simon.tripod.com/Stoves/

.....Alcohol stoves never flare up. Unpressurized alcohol stoves are quiet and don't intrude on the wilderness experience the way pressurized stoves can.
--Alcohol doesn't vaporize well in freezing temperatures, so for best performance in cold weather, the stove should be heated.
--The biggest downside to unpressurized alcohol stoves is that they only produce about half the heat output of a white gas, butane or propane stove. This means cooking times are slower and you need to carry more fuel.
If you want to find a stove that fits your needs, check the gearfinder at: http://www.gearfinder.com/ss.asp?Fam=Stoves&Family=Packs. I do have to admit that the term “cozy” used in the previous post isn’t one I’m familiar with, maybe it is regional. I’ll have to ask my scientist friends at NCAR in Boulder, CO to explain it for me.

smokymtnsteve

03-19-2004, 20:42

old phart for your info a cozy is isulation that some folks use to put there pot in to hold heat and allow there food to "cook" after taking it off the stove....IMO what happens is that the food sets for a while at temps that bacteria love instead of cooking at a boil or simmer that kills bacteria, be careful.

2XL

03-19-2004, 21:49

The temperature range for bacteria to grow is from 40-160 degrees. Within that temp. range you have a window of safety, about 3 hours.

smokymtnsteve

03-19-2004, 22:52

oruoja

03-19-2004, 23:53

I have been using white gas stoves for 23 years and am interested in the alcohol stoves for summer use just to try it, but as I have read from several sources the fuel requirement is double that of white gas. If I am out for five to seven days where is the weight savings by using a Pepsi can stove. Granted, they are virtually maintenance free, but my Whisperlite Int'l is going on nine years with no problems, just a routine annual inspection and cleaning to keep it running. I personally like the speed and efficiency of white gas and the stove fits right into my pot so space and size is a not an issue. I have never needed to burn gasoline or kerosene, but it's nice to know in a pinch I can. Also, as far as boiling goes to kill the crud, you don't need to keep the water at a boil for three to five minutes, so save that gas.

deeddawg

03-20-2004, 00:54

better safe than sorry...make sure to include immodium or your favorite anti- diarrhea medicine in your first aid kit..you should have this in your first aid kit anyway....dehydration really sucks on the trail.

smokymtnsteve: I've got to assume you're either joking, you don't know much about microbiology, or you have a really misguided notion about how cozies are used. Are you honestly saying that you'd be concerned about a boiling pot of food sitting sitting in a cozy for ten minutes??? What on earth do you do when dinner is served at home and it's sitting there in the serving bowl for twice as long at significantly lower temperatures and open to the air?

Old Fhart: You say white gas "wins" every time in a side-by side comparison. In my book, white gas LOSES every time for the hiking I do. So who's right? Both of us, actually. Our needs/preferences are different.

Use whatever works best for ya, but watch the categorical statements based on subjective criteria.

On another note, there's an obvious difference in meaning between "don't work as well" and "don't work well". Since I know for a fact that alcohol stoves work fine for me in cold weather, then clearly the latter statement is false. And since I've used white gas, cannister, and alcohol stoves in the cold, I don't need some random webpage or second-hand information to tell me the advantages/disadvantages of each. In some circumstances, sure white gas is best. But those aren't circumstances that I've ever been in. (note: also depends on subjective definition of "best")

And yes, the original point of the thread was to request info regarding white gas availability. Are you suggesting that that is license for false information go uncommented upon?

The word "cozy" is not a regional thing as far as I know unless it's an east/west thing; I'd heard of tea cozies long before I ever heard of them in hiking; I think the origin may have been English. Check www.m-w.com and look at the "noun" form.

Gman: glad you took the simmering comment in the spririt intended. Just having fun.

On the other hand, I use alcohol most of the time these days and have never had a blackened pot. Did you possibly use isopropyl one time? My alcohol stoves burn as clean as my butane and white gas stoves. That seems to be another myth folks like to spread for some reason.

For what it's worth, my cozy weighs 32 grams. How many minutes simmer time do you get on that much fuel? (not trying to be smart, I'm actually curious and too tired to go try it out on my cannister stove) With alcohol fuel, that's about as much alcohol as I need to boil water for dinner and a cup of tea (~3 cups)

Cheers all...

Peaks

03-20-2004, 09:27

OK guys, let's make this real simple.

White gas burns much hotter. There is a time and place for it. It's great when cooking for a group. It's great in cold temperatures.

Alcohol works for the typical long distance hiker because most cooking consists of heating 2 cups of water to a boil. It's doesn't take much heat to do that. Plus, I'm more apt to use a wind screeen with alchohol than white gas.

The Old Fhart

03-20-2004, 09:32

Deeddawg, referring to my post #11 above, states:

On another note, there's an obvious difference in meaning between "don't work as well" and "don't work well". Since I know for a fact that alcohol stoves work fine for me in cold weather, then clearly the latter statement is false. And since I've used white gas, cannister, and alcohol stoves in the cold, I don't need some random webpage or second-hand information to tell me the advantages/disadvantages of each. In some circumstances, sure white gas is best. But those aren't circumstances that I've ever been in. (note: also depends on subjective definition of "best")

And yes, the original point of the thread was to request info regarding white gas availability. Are you suggesting that that is license for false information go uncommented upon?

I’m glad that we have heard from the final authority on stoves and now know that the laws of thermodynamics have been rewritten to conform to Deeddawg’s myopic view of the universe. As Deeddawg says: “I know for a fact that alcohol stoves work fine for me in cold weather, then clearly the latter statement is false.” Comments like this are called “anecdotal evidence” and are not based on fact. I’d suggest that the “works fine” be replaced by “works for me but not as well as….”.

If any one makes comments on stoves without evidence to back them up, they’re biased. When one give scientific facts they are accused of giving “false information” or quoting “some random webpage or second-hand information”. However, not everyone reading this thread is so enlightened so I referenced some sites that have extensive and factual reviews of different stove types.

I would suggest that Deeddawg actually read the info on http://art.simon.tripod.com/Stoves/. This link is devoted to alcohol stoves and, if anything, is biased toward the use of alcohol stoves. The review starts by saying:
“I've come to love hiking with my alcohol stove. It's simple, safe, cheap, small, light, quiet and reliable. What else could you ask of a stove?” The FACTS that you get from that site say:
.....Alcohol stoves never flare up. Unpressurized alcohol stoves are quiet and don't intrude on the wilderness experience the way pressurized stoves can.
--Alcohol doesn't vaporize well in freezing temperatures, so for best performance in cold weather, the stove should be heated.
--The biggest downside to unpressurized alcohol stoves is that they only produce about half the heat output of a white gas, butane or propane stove. This means cooking times are slower and you need to carry more fuel. How this can be considered “false information” is ludicrous. How does my quoting a pro-alcohol stove site reflect my bias toward white gas stoves? Obviously Deeddawg’s comments are a knee-jerk reaction and the information on this site was never read.

The statements I made are correct and the sites I referenced are informative and give good factual information on all types of stoves. I recommend that anyone wanting to get a stove refer to the sites I listed and form their own opinion but don't ignore "the facts". The fact that different types of fuel have different BTU outputs per unit of fuel is correct and white gas clearly wins over alcohol. I find it humorous that Deeddawg chastises me for referencing web sites but is so quick to refer me to www.m-w.com. Should I respond in kind with:” I don't need some random webpage or second-hand information to tell me………………………”.

smokymtnsteve

03-20-2004, 09:45

smokymtnsteve: I've got to assume you're either joking, you don't know much about microbiology, or you have a really misguided notion about how cozies are used. Are you honestly saying that you'd be concerned about a boiling pot of food sitting sitting in a cozy for ten minutes??? What on earth do you do when dinner is served at home and it's sitting there in the serving bowl for twice as long at significantly lower temperatures and open to the air?

Cheers all...

sanitation levels at home and on the trail are two different things....but to answer your question about home ..we serve directly from the stove hot ...we would never consider letting food sit for 20 min.(twice as long as your 10 in the cozy) in a serving bowl on the table...

On the trail I even boil my spoon each and every time before I use it, and I alcohol gel my hands about twice during the cooking process....that cozy that you put your food in time and time again will be just crawling with bacteria..esp if you spill a little food from time to time on it..this would create a perfect breeding ground for the little boogers..warm pot ..food spills ..warm pot...back in the bacteria...then you handle the cozy and pot...yep perfect place for bacteria...

but then again I have had a couple rounds of chemo so I'm over cautious...

deeddawg

03-20-2004, 11:36

Old Fhart,

I'm sorry that you feel the need to resort to ad hominem attacks such as "we have heard from the final authority on stoves" and "laws of thermodynamics have been rewritten to conform to Deeddawg’s myopic view". Such stuff as this is not constructive.

You made the assertion "alcohol type stoves and the butane stoves just don't work well in the cold". That is the statement I called false, based on my own personal observations. You seem to have read into this something completely different; I apologize if I was not sufficiently clear in what I was saying.

Does white gas provide more BTU output? Sure thing. Does it heat stuff faster than alcohol in cold weather? Sure does. I'm not in disagreement over those facts, so I'm not sure why you keep referring to websites and such to support those statements when it is the "just don't work well in the cold" statement that is in question?

Fact: I have used all three types of fuels in cold weather.
Fact: All three have successfully provided me hot meals in the conditions I've been in.
Fact: None have failed me in any conditions.

Yet you maintain that "alcohol type stoves and the butane stoves just don't work well in the cold".

*shrug* Like the bumblebee in the story about the aeronautical engineers who determined that it was impossible for the bumblebee to fly, I'll just keep on using alcohol fueled stoves in cold weather regardless of your claims to the contrary.

Oh, and about your website references vs. my reference to Merriam-Webster's online dictionay; you must have missed where the m-w.com reference was to assist you with the definition of a word with which you weren't familiar.

That's vastly different from listing a few websites to try to tell someone that his directly-observed experiences are wrong. How many websites would I have to trot out to convince you that the sky is really green instead of the blue you can see with your own eyes? At what point does second-hand evidence overrule direct observations to the contrary?

deeddawg

03-20-2004, 11:50

smokymtnsteve,

fair enough -- having had a couple members of my wife's family deal with chemo I can certainly understand your cautiousness. Sorry about the tone of my previous post on the subject.

I have experienced mild (no hospitalization) food poisoning first-hand and follow the usual food handling/preparation guidelines; I certainly don't wish to repeat such an episode.

To clarify a couple perceptions about my cozy usage (I only speak for myself):

It is rare that I ever spill any food on my cozy, and if I do it is wiped clean. Mine is made out of Reflectix, a multi-layered bubble-wrap & aluminum foil composite used in home construction. Foam rubber or fleece cozies would be more of a concern due to their being more porous than aluminum.

Food is brought to a rolling boil on the stove, boiled as long as the charge of alcohol lasts, which is typically two or three minutes of a full rolling boil, then with the lid still on the entire pot is placed in the cozy and sits for five to ten minutes.

When I take the pot out of the cozy, the food is typically still too hot to eat. As such, I believe that the food temperatures within the pot stay a fair bit higher than 160F through the ten minutes the food may sit in there. I have not, however, tested this with a thermometer. If I have time this weekend, I will test it out and see.

-- Lew

The Old Fhart

03-20-2004, 14:07

Deeddawg,
I hate to drag this out ad nauseam but you seem to be misunderstanding what I have said. When you say: “Old Fhart: You say white gas "wins" every time in a side-by side comparison. In my book, white gas LOSES every time for the hiking I do.” you totally misrepresent the point of comparing stoves to see what their strengths and weaknesses are. Consumer Reports and other testing organizations do side-by-side testing to see how different units perform and the sites I listed give valuable information to anyone wanting to compare stoves. Not everyone has the time or money to buy every stove on the market to do their own testing so these sites perform a valuable service. I already admitted one of the sites was biased because it was devoted to alcohol stoves and flat-out stated they preferred alcohol stoves over other types. Even they admitted the shortcomings of alcohol stoves so mentioning the shortcomings certainly isn’t heresy, it is valuable information in helping others make an informed decision. To try to give your arguments legitimacy by referring to the sites I listed as “some random webpage or second-hand information” and saying that this is “ false information” is an emotional attack on what I have said and doesn’t deal with the real differences between stoves. “Such stuff as this is not constructive” to quote you. To complain about some of my comments while flinging the same my way is like calling the kettle black, if you will excuse the sooty pun.

You keep implying that alcohol works for you so any criticism of alcohol stoves is invalid. Geez, I own 3 alcohol stoves that I use and have nothing against them, quite the contrary. I just don’t try to convince everyone that alcohol is THE way to go. Fifty years ago they generally use wood cook fires and that “worked well” but if you compare wood to any modern method, it falls short. However the idea of comparing cooking methods is to show strengths and weaknesses of each system. While my backpacking stove “works well” I don’t use it at home to cook supper. Comparing the electric range to the backpacking stove, the backpacking stove cost less, is lighter, is portable, etc., but that isn’t the criteria I use at home. I listed the stove sites so others who aren’t dogmatic can make an informed decision.

Finally, on your closing lines: ” How many websites would I have to trot out to convince you that the sky is really green instead of the blue you can see with your own eyes? At what point does second-hand evidence overrule direct observations to the contrary?”
Let’s stick to reality and science. Actually the sky is black in space but varies in color depending on the suspended pollutants and the angle of the sun, hence the colorful sunrises and sunsets. The sky can actually be green during intense solar flares that produce the northern lights. Working for the Mount Washington Weather observatory for four winters with scientist from NCAR did teach me a little about the sky. I’ll concede the sky can be green so don’t bother looking for those web sites but I’ll bet you won’t be flexible in your decision on stoves.

smokymtnsteve

03-20-2004, 15:15

like any food handling method "cozy cooking" has benefits and draw backs....I have to admit the one I hve seen were made from a foam material... and I have seen some nasty ones.

safe food handling on the trail is important,

and on this I think we agree.. :sun

also after having suffered a heliobacter pylori infection back in the late 80's after drinking untreated water from a well in the desert of southern CA...I'm kinda "picky" about h2o tx also. but I'm still walking :banana

deeddawg

03-21-2004, 03:37

Old Fhart,

This really has gone on too long and it is getting rather tiresome; Please reread my posts and look at what I have said; it really seems as if you are misunderstanding what I write and think I am saying things I am not saying.

I have been very specific that my comments are in light of my specific usage and preferences. Alcohol stoves get the job done for me on the trail and do so without some of the aspects of white gas stoves I don't like. Does that mean everyone should drop their other fuels and follow my lead? Does that mean alcohol stoves are the Holy Grail of trail stoves and have no drawbacks? Certainly not; it'd be ludicrous for anyone to think that I'm saying anything of the kind.

I spoke against your categorical statement: "alcohol type stoves ... just don't work well in the cold". That is the statement I called false. It's simple logic really, for a categorical assertion to be proven false all you need is a single example of where it is not true. I provided such an example. Your website citations and quotes What I don't understand is why you then cited some websites to support a completely different assertion?

You bring back up your claim that white gas wins every time. That may be true in a very focused test where nothing but BTU's and/or boil time is tested. Fine for the lab or tests on the kitchen stove. On the trail, however, there is far more to any cooking system than BTU's and boil times; most of which is subjective. I covered that in post #16 and won't repeat it here.

If you'll pardon the pun, let's boil this down to the original point of my posting in this thread. Can you, or can you not defend your assertion "The alcohol type stoves and the butane stoves just don't work well in the cold"?

You know, you almost nipped this whole thing in the bud in post #11 when you said "Maybe saying “as well” would be more acceptable to the devotees of those stoves.". In fact, had you said "as well" in the first place you would actually have been making a correct statement instead of a false one.

Why not just say you misspoke? Why the adherence to a statement which is clearly incorrect?

Oh, also -- Your final paragraph of the previous post is amusing. Did you really not see the analogy? A discussion of Rayleigh scattering really wasn't the point.

Youngblood

03-21-2004, 08:23

I suspect that a lot of the previous discussion has to do with each individual's definition of cold weather. Living in the southeastern USA, cold weather to me is about 20 degrees F. Folks in other regions probably consider this cool weather and consider cold weather to be sub-zero temperatures. I use my alcohol stove for my cold weather camping of 20 degrees, but I don't think I would want to try it for someone else's cold weather camping of 0 degrees... I think I would take my white gas stove and buy warmer gear; bag, pad, gloves, boots, clothes, etc. I suspect that if folks would define what they mean when they say 'cold weather', that there would probably be less disagreement as to which stoves would be more appropriate.

BTW, this applies to most of the gear we use. The ultra-light gear that I like to use has its limitations and 'cold weather' is certainly one of them. I wear my 'trail runners' for my 20 degree cold weather hiking (no snow) on the Georgia AT, but I wouldn't expect that would work to well for sub-zero degree cold weather hiking in New Hampshire.

Youngblood

deeddawg

03-21-2004, 14:55

smokymtnsteve,
I did a test of my cozy today while puttering around getting some stuff ready for next weekend. I think you may find the results interesting, I certainly did.

Started with two cups ambient-temp water (70F) and brought to a rolling boil using a meat thermometer sitting in the pot which read 212F during the boil. It fits with the lid on, so I left the thermometer in the pot and placed the pot in my cozy. This was in my basement, so obviously these are "ideal" conditions; 70F and no wind. Cozy sat on my wooden workbench. Pot is a Primus Litech Trek Kettle.

Times are counted from when I placed the pot in the cozy using a stopwatch. Temperature readings were performed by taking the lid off the cozy, then the lid off the pot and observing the thermometer reading. Lids were replaced as soon as possible.

0 min -- 212F
10 min -- 204F
15 min -- 195F
30 min -- 182F
45 min -- 170F

I was rather surprised; the cozy held the heat in the pot a fair bit better than I'd expected, and definitely much longer than I'd expected.

I'm curious as to your thoughts.

-- Lew

The Old Fhart

03-21-2004, 19:09

First I would like to thank the other posters for responding in a reasonable manner and adding to the discussion.

Deeddawg,
You disagree with my saying you are the final authority on stoves but you criticize and try to belittle everyone who post any thing you disagree with. Just look at your responses.

To smokymtnsteve: I've got to assume you're either joking, you don't know much about microbiology, or you have a really misguided notion about how cozies are used.
To Gman: On the other hand, I use alcohol most of the time these days and have never had a blackened pot.
To The Old Fhart: ” since I've used white gas, cannister, and alcohol stoves in the cold, I don't need some random webpage or second-hand information to tell me the advantages/disadvantages of each.

No matter what any one says, if it doesn’t fit in with your narrow idea of what is right, you attack them. You say: “…but watch the categorical statements based on subjective criteria” and then proceed to say: “Since I know for a fact that alcohol stoves work fine for me in cold weather, then clearly the latter statement is false.” I suggest you check www.m-w.com and look up the definition of “subjective”. Any thing that applies to you on a single event is subjective, if it is universal and reproducible, then it is objective and that is what the sites I listed have tried to show. Your unique experiences are subjective and highly biased toward alcohol.

As to why you are puzzled about my references when you say:
“What I don't understand is why you then cited some websites to support a completely different assertion?” The reason is that, unlike you, I have tried to present information to help others make up their own minds and I have presented information that could be different that my preferences. It is called being informative and I am not trying to stifle any viewpoint. On the other hand you feel it is you mission to defend alcohol stoves and brow beat any one who isn’t of the true faith. You even criticize a pro-alcohol link I used because it points out some universally recognized negatives of using alcohol.

And you say:
“Oh, also -- Your final paragraph of the previous post is amusing. Did you really not see the analogy? A discussion of Rayleigh scattering really wasn't the point.”
I know exactly what the point was. Again it was a sophomoric attempt on your part to say you are right and the rest of the world, particularly me, is wrong and you are the authority on every thing relating to stoves, you just used a poor analogy. You also say:
” Can you, or can you not defend your assertion "The alcohol type stoves and the butane stoves just don't work well in the cold"?
Obviously no one could prove that to your satisfaction because you will always say that because it works for you, everyone else is wrong. Any reasonable person checking the sites I listed or reading Backpacker Magazines gear reviews would come to the conclusion that alcohol has its limitations. If they want to use alcohol realizing its limitations, fine.

I’ll leave it for you to have the final word and I’m sure you will. I just ask others reading these posts to check into the links I’ve listed or find others that will help them decide what stove works best for them. They may very well choose alcohol but they should come to that conclusion by informed comparison without having some zealot force it down their throats.

Blue Jay

03-22-2004, 14:44

No matter what any one says, if it doesn’t fit in with your narrow idea of what is right, you attack them.

No one attacked you. Every time anyone disagrees with you, you call it an attack. It's just a stove.

deeddawg

03-22-2004, 15:52

Old Fhart,

I think I now understand where some of your misunderstanding of my statements is coming from. It seems that there is a difference between us in an understanding of logic; I don't mean this as an insult, so please don't take it as such. What I mean is this: Let's take a generic categorical statement such as "Given conditions A, then B is always true". If an example can be found where B is NOT true under conditions A, then the statement is logically false based on standard rules of logic.

It seems as if you think I'm saying "Given conditions A, then B is NEVER true." That is not the way logical operations work, and all that is said by claiming the original statement is false is "Given conditions A, then B may or may not be true". It hadn't occurred to me that you wouldn't be familiar with this, since basic logic is fundamental to scientific experimentation. But maybe you are familiar with it and somehow have just misunderstood the point.

What I still don't understand is why you continue to attack me with false claims regarding my intentions and reasons? You say you wish to be informative and helpful, but when you categorically say that w.g. is best for all people, and I claim to be one who has tried it and chooses differently, I get blasted. How informative is that? Who is claiming to be the be-all/end-all authority on stove usage in the cold? I'm just one lone person who chooses to go my own way and use what I find works best for me given the broad picture of the entire cooking system and the conditions in which I use it.

Of course my statements are subjective; they're based on my personal preferences and experimentation to find what system works best for me. Despite your insulting insinuations as to my motives, my choice of cooking system is based on what works for me in the conditions I experience. It has nothing to do with any adherence to any particular fuel. People should use whatever they feel works best for them given the big picture; and I will continue to point out when incorrect statements are made regardless of the system.

Let me try to explain the comment on the links again, as I don't seem to have been clear enough yet. I did not criticize the links themselves, but instead criticised your assertion that what I have directly observed on multiple occasions is untrue and your citing of anecdotal (second-hand) evidence to try to disprove my empirical evidence. Obviously, this is speaking from my frame of reference; from your frame of reference my experiences are anecdotal evidence as well. Somehow, I've missed where you've posted your actual experiences using other than white-gas; though I did see mention of some 70 stoves in your posession, I didn't see what sorts they were. Anyway, I'm sorry if the point wasn't clear enough.

Obviously no one could prove that to your satisfaction because you will always say that because it works for you, everyone else is wrong.The trouble is, I never said what you claim I said. See the opening paragraphs of this message. I said only that the statement you made is incorrect. I define "works well" as being able to cook my meals reliably with no fuss. Alcohol does this, white-gas does this, isobutane does this. So when someone tells me that two of the three don't "work well", I question the validity of the statement since I have successfully cooked meals with all three systems in the cold. We're not talking about one working "better" or "faster", but whether it "works well" as in gets the job done reliably and feeds the hungry hiker hauling it around.

alcohol has its limitations. If they want to use alcohol realizing its limitations, fine.Finally we agree on something. Each system has its limitations and benefits. Each person should weigh these against their personal preferences and choose what system which best fits their needs. Care should be taken to look at the whole of the system and the conditions in which it will be used instead of focusing on certain attributes such as weight, cooking times (so long as they're reasonable), potential failure modes, fuel availability, etc. As Youngblood wisely points out, the cold of North Georgia isn't the same cold as NH, but 20F is still cold if you ask folks around here.

they should come to that conclusion by informed comparison without having some zealot force it down their throats.Still the insults keep flowing. I apologize for whatever I have done to foster such visciousness on your part. I leave it to the readers of this thread to determine who is and is not a zealot.

The Old Fhart

03-23-2004, 10:21

Deeddawg, Your first two paragraphs could be clearer. Basic logic courses give the false logic version of what you are trying to say is: “a dog is an animal therefore all animals are dogs”. Even if you are referring to set theory or Boolean operators what you’re trying to say is unrelated to the difference between subjective statements and objective data on stoves or the point of the original post. To say: “It hadn't occurred to me that you wouldn't be familiar with this, since basic logic is fundamental to scientific experimentation”, again is intended as a personal slam. Same as your reply to Smokymtnsteve concerning the cozies which says: “I've got to assume you're either joking, you don't know much about microbiology, or you have a really misguided notion about how cozies are used.” You casually make personal remarks like that to try to discredit anyone who has a different opinion.

One thing I’ll certainly agree with is your statement “but watch the categorical statements based on subjective criteria” followed by your recent admission that “Of course my statements are subjective.” The whole point of checking the sites I referenced which you still don’t understand is so any one could get objective comparisons on all types of stoves or to get more points of view other than yours or mine. And, in case you missed it last time, the purpose of these references isn’t to try to convince you of anything, I know your mind is made up. The purpose is to provide information, pro and con on all types of stoves, to the other readers of this thread who might want some good information.

Deeddawg: “Somehow, I've missed where you've posted your actual experiences using other than white-gas; though I did see mention of some 70 stoves in your posession, I didn't see what sorts they were.” Note once again you misread and misstated what I said about my stoves in post #9 and it is repeated correctly, below. (actually the stoves I have are solid fuel, butane, propane/butane mix, alcohol-homemade and comercial, white gas, kerosene, military, etc.)

I’ve stated my experience with stoves in three different post so I don’t see how it could be continually be missed but here it is once again.

Post #5)My all time favorite white gas stove is the Svea 123 with a pump. With a full tank and nested inside a large stainless steel cup I use for the pot, it weighs about 24oz.. The Trangia is quiet, burns alcohol, and weighs about 16oz. with cookset and is a lot more rugged than a Pepsi can stove which would work about the same.
Post #9)I have about 30 stoves, some up to 70 years old, and have used them all depending on the conditions, length of the hike, whatever.
Post #22)Geez, I own 3 alcohol stoves that I use and have nothing against them, quite the contrary.

So when you say of me that: “You say you wish to be informative and helpful, but when you categorically say that w.g. is best for all people”, that is NOT what I have said and is a flat-out lie. Show any part of all my posts where I have said “w.g. is best for all people”, or even best for that matter. You won’t find it because I never, ever said that. The closest I came to that was saying “If you are going to run into cold weather I'd highly recommend any kind of pressurized white gas stove”. If you’re going to “quote” me please use cut-and-paste to show what I actually said rather that use your distorted rewording. For example, use my saying: “Geez, I own 3 alcohol stoves that I use and have nothing against them, quite the contrary” to show that I say white gas is best.

While we’re all glad that alcohol works for you under limited conditions in Georgia keep in mind that the original post was a question about white gas availability along the trail. Obviously the poster’s intent is to eventually hike the entire trail with white gas, not just do short controlled hikes in Georgia. Because we all know that some thru hikers start at Springer mountain as early as January 1st it is safe to state that there are some hikers who start between New Year’s day and spring who do indeed see temps that are in the 0 degree range in the southern Appalachians. Therefore my saying:” If you are going to run into cold weather I'd highly recommend any kind of pressurized white gas stove” is entirely reasonable. For you to try to restrict the meaning of “cold” to be 20 degrees and above, unless you’re a hiker is in New Hampshire, is not looking at how some people might hike and admitting to the realistic temps they can expect to see, even in the mountains in your own back yard.
The same poster that started this thread has another in Gear Talk where they ask: “Guys, I need to choose a liquid stove. Which should I choose between the Simmerlite and DragonFly ? Leave the weight fact aside, lets talk about the cooking abilities.” Please don’t try to continue your alcohol debate over there, it is clear what the poster wants and the answers doesn’t involve alcohol or any other stove types.

deeddawg

03-23-2004, 11:49

Old Fhart,

You must have missed the second half of my statement, here's the whole piece: It hadn't occurred to me that you wouldn't be familiar with this, since basic logic is fundamental to scientific experimentation. But maybe you are familiar with it and somehow have just misunderstood the point.

This statement indicates that my first assumption was that you were familiar with basic logic operations, yet the continued discussion suggests that either you are not familiar with such or through some unknown means continue to miss the point. I'm at a loss to otherwise explain your actions.

Back to basic logic one last time: When someone says A -> B and I can show an instance where A is true and B is not true, then logically I have proven ~(A -> B), or in other words that the original assertion is false. Your arguments suggest that you think I'm saying A -> ~B or perhaps ~B -> ~A, neither of which which logically follow and are not what I have said. Your dogs/animals example is more set theory than logic, and is indeed incorrect as you indicate; dogs are a subset of animals, but animals are not a subset of dogs. Not sure how that applies though.

You keep returning to my statement to Smkymtnsteve; a statement of incredulity not insult. Sharp, yes, and the tone apologized for already. For the record, what is the mean doubling time of e. coli or salmonella (or other aerobic food-borne pathogen)? How large a bacterial load is typically required for a normally healthy individual to experience illness? I'll let you do the research for the specific numbers, but last I checked it was nearly impossible for a sanitized item to grow enough pathogenic bacteria in twenty or thirty minutes to cause problems. I would, of course, welcome information to the contrary.

I'm glad to hear you agree about being careful regarding categorical statements based on subjective criteria. That's why I try to be very careful about making categorical statements and qualify my statements as my personal experience/preferences. Did you ever read the content of my first post?
work well down into the low 20's and after a 19F overnight low. Haven't personally been out in lower temps so I don't have direct experience with anything lower than this. ... Sub-zero temps and such, yeah I'd probably leave the alcohol stove home. But for the AT in most times thru's will be on it, alcohol should work just fine.

Seems I gave pretty concrete information as to the specific conditions I've used it in, and even recommend AGAINST alcohol given colder conditions. So much for your claims that I'm some sort of alcohol zealot.

I did misremember your stove experience, thanks for the clarification on that point.

You ask: Show any part of all my posts where I have said "w.g. is best for all people", or even best for that matter.. Sure thing: have a look at post #9 where you write:
As to comparing alcohol to white gas stoves, yes they are simple but I still maintain in a side by side test, the white gas will win every time. I ask that you read reviews of stoves, like the link I posted before, and decide what is most important to you. and post #5,
alcohol type stoves and the butane stoves just don't work well in the cold Hmm... win every time and don't work well in the cold Then when I dare to claim that for me these statements are not true, you get your dander up and start name calling.

more acceptable to the devotees of those stoves
I’m glad that we have heard from the final authority on stoves ... the laws of thermodynamics have been rewritten to conform to Deeddawg’s myopic view of the universe
Deeddawg’s comments are a knee-jerk reaction
unlike you, I have tried to present information to help others
you feel it is you mission to defend alcohol stoves and brow beat any one who isn’t of the true faith
a sophomoric attempt on your part
you are the authority on every thing relating to stoves

Heaven forbid anyone should post an opinion contrary to Old Fhart's.

I love this one...
Please don’t try to continue your alcohol debate over there, it is clear what the poster wants and the answers doesn’t involve alcohol or any other stove types.

The debate isn't about alcohol and never really has been, despite your somehow thinking you know my intentions and thoughts. As I clearly stated time and again, the debate is about the fact that you made a categorical statement which was incorrect and I called you on it. You then made another incorrect categorical statement based on a subset of the big picture, and I called you on that one too.

Once again, look back to my original post in the thread (yes, I'm quoting it again):
Shhhhhh!!!! Don't tell my alcohol stove it doesn't work well in the cold. So far I've shielded it from discovering this "truth" and it's been quite happy to work well down into the low 20's and after a 19F overnight low. Haven't personally been out in lower temps so I don't have direct experience with anything lower than this.

Sub-zero temps and such, yeah I'd probably leave the alcohol stove home. But for the AT in most times thru's will be on it, alcohol should work just fine.

Wow, I'm actually recommending against alcohol stoves for some conditions. They're gonna drum me out of Alcohol Zealots of America for sure now! :bse

Cheers.

gravityman

03-23-2004, 15:20

This is exhausting!

The only thing that I want to know is - deedawg, what did you make your cozy out of? It's buried in these posts, but I can't bare to try to read them all... Did you use directions from the internet somewhere?

Thanks,
Gravity Man

deeddawg

03-23-2004, 16:46

The only thing that I want to know is - deedawg, what did you make your cozy out of? It's buried in these posts, but I can't bare to try to read them all... Did you use directions from the internet somewhere?
I used some stuff called "Reflectix" which I bought at Lowe's -- haven't ever seen it at Home Depot for some reason. It's normally used to insulate ductwork and as an insulating layer in building construction.

Here's the manuf. webpage: http://www.reflectixinc.com/

Best I can tell visually, it is the same stuff Antigravitygear uses to make their cozys, so if you didn't want to mess with finding the stuff and buying a roll, you might just get one from them.

I didn't use any specific instructions, but sort of an amaglam of Sgt Rock's, StoveStomper's and other folks' cozy instructions. Essentially I cut out two circles of material (one each for the top and bottom, then a rectangle a bit taller than the pot (Primus Litech Trek Kettle) and long enough to go around it once. I taped it all together with high-temperature silvery (mylar?) tape, not the heavy metal-foil tape usually used in alcohol stove construction. The stuff I use claimed to be good to something like 260F which I figured was plenty and it has proved to be true. I leave a slot in the side of the cozy for half of the pot handle to stick out to make it easier to get the pot in/out without spillage. The top is not attached to the cozy and just sort of sits in there since I cut it a little large. A piece of tape stuck to itself and to the top serves as a handle, kind of like an upside-down "T".

Hope that helps; feel free to post or PM me with any questions.