View Full Version : Different idea for tent design
berninbush
10-06-2008, 12:13
Here's an idea I've been kicking around in the back of my head for a while as I read about different tent designs. I don't have the skills to try this out for myself, so I'm putting it out there in hopes that it would be useful to someone else.
Condensation inside tents seems to be an issue whether you're talking about single-wall or double-wall tents, though obviously it's more for some than others. Tent-makers fight this by putting in more mesh for ventilation and using expensive "breathable" fabrics that let air in and out but not liquid water.
But there's a different approach that's used for the same purpose in clothing... "wicking" material that collects moisture and directs it outside. Could this approach work for a tent wall?
I'm envisioning a waterproof sheet of material with, on the underside, a network of wicking material that absorbs condensation and directs it to the edges of the tent, outside the floor or groundsheet.
Could this work?
eVent fabric has already been used in tents with limited success
wrongway_08
10-06-2008, 12:19
I think it would work but the only downfall would be weight of the material when wet and the amount of time it would take to dry before you could pack it away.
Good idea as long as the material could dry fast and not weigh alot when dry.
berninbush
10-06-2008, 13:24
eVent fabric has already been used in tents with limited success
I wasn't familiar with eVent so I just googled it. If I'm understanding correctly, that's really not what I had in mind. They're still talking about venting moisture through pores in the fabric. I'm talking more about a loose network of "drip strings" that criss-cross the underdside of the fabric and push moisture out *around the edges.*
The strings would maybe be placed an inch or two apart. Condensation forms on the underside of the tent wall, then starts to run down it... until it hits one of the strings and is carried out to the edge of the material, where it drips onto the ground. It's sort of the same idea as the drip strings that are used on hammocks to keep water from running down the ridgeline.
If you keep the network wide enough, the string wouldn't add much weight to the tent, whether it's dry or still damp when packed.
Gray Blazer
10-06-2008, 13:28
Would that work with 100% moisture (say, a rainstorm)?
OldStormcrow
10-06-2008, 14:06
nano-fibers.....the wave of the future.
berninbush
10-06-2008, 15:14
Would that work with 100% moisture (say, a rainstorm)?
100% humidity... I don't know. I wish I had the means to field-test it, and hope that someone else will.
I guess a lot would depend on whether the drops ran down the slope of the outer shell to a drip-string before they just dripped off on the tent floor.
I'm picturing a mesh about the width of a basketball net, but with much finer super-conducting string.
REI did this with two tent designs (one from Bill Moss and one from Yvon Chouinard, I believe). They were single walled tents which had a canopy joined to the bathtub floor by a strip of non-coated nylon tape which is, by nature, water absorbent. The problem was that
1) Condensation was still all over the underside of the roof.
2) The tape did not know that it was only supposed to wick from the inside out! :)
Btw: You might consider Googling Nexus, the fuzzy nylon lining used on Gore-tex jackets and bivys. In previous experimental usages it was pretty much determined that, though no moisture was felt on the inside of Nexus lined garments and tents, weighing the articles affirmed that it was, indeed, still there.
Toolshed
10-06-2008, 17:25
ToddTex did this almost a decade ago, IIRC.
I would think that it would be too bulky. I think that dealing with condensation is still just an exercise in futility, and taking some time to let your tent dry out as often as possible. Example, if you have to pack a wet tent (My rainbow was pretty moist a couple of weeks ago) drape it over some trees or hang it, while you eat bfast (preferably after walking a bit so the weather warms a bit) and it should only take a little while for the tent to be dry.
This post was not to discourage anyone from designing a bigger, better, faster, or stronger way of doing things.
KEEP UP THE DESIGNING AND DESTRUCTION OF STANDARD HEAVY BADLY DESIGNED GEAR!!!!
As stated above, Todd-Tex ( a Todd Bibler word play for Gore-Tex) as used in Bibler tents , is PTFE with an undercoat of Nextec, the fuzzy stuff designed to capture condensation . Nothing new...
Franco
berninbush
10-08-2008, 01:52
Does Nextec just capture condensation, or does it wick it away to drip strings outside?
The Devil is in the detail....
The Nextec fuzzy stuff is there to keep the condensation from dripping on you and let it pass through the Teflon membrane and it works well in most situations. Your version could apply to "non breathable" fabrics or laminates. I would think that a large 1.5/2" grid pattern could capture running condensation and channel that to the bottom of the tent, however it likely would result in longer drying times in the morning and or just a heavier tent to carry compared with just wiping the surface down. The main problem I see is extra weight and bulk. If the grid is of thin material it provably will just help concentrating the moisture and then drip on you, if it is large enough to channel it down than it possibly would be close enough to the weight of an inner , but it still would offer better space to weight ratio....
Franco
here it is dudes check it out ; http://www.nemoequipment.com/tents
BitBucket
10-10-2008, 00:02
here it is dudes check it out ; http://www.nemoequipment.com/tents
Anybody actually used one of these?? Interesting concept - airbeam vs metal ...wonder how they hold up in the field...
berninbush
10-12-2008, 20:02
I would think that a large 1.5/2" grid pattern could capture running condensation and channel that to the bottom of the tent, however it likely would result in longer drying times in the morning and or just a heavier tent to carry compared with just wiping the surface down.
Yay, at least you're picturing what I mean. :D
The main problem I see is extra weight and bulk. If the grid is of thin material it provably will just help concentrating the moisture and then drip on you, if it is large enough to channel it down than it possibly would be close enough to the weight of an inner , but it still would offer better space to weight ratio....
Franco
Yeah, I don't expect it would compete in weight with a single-wall tarptent, but it might be lighter and work better than a mesh inner wall in terms of stopping condensation. I've been dripped on through mesh before.
Ultra-lite, ultra-strong, and waterproof
Silicone-elastomere fabrics allow their fibers to stretch without separating or breaking, and this makes them stronger than conventional PU-coated (or PU/siliconized) fabrics for a far lower weight. || Silicone impregnation means that the silicone completely permeates the fibers and also makes the fabric hydrophobic, so it doesn’t soak up water and gain weight. It is also less likely to wear away or degrade in UV light than PU. || 30 denier SilLite weighs just 1.76 oz/sq. yd (60 g/sq. m) and has a tear strength of 9.5 lbs (4.3 kg). It is significantly lighter and stronger (for its weight) compared to conventional tent PU-coated fabrics.
http://www.golite.com/product/proddetail.aspx?p=SH6110&s=1 and i recommend this shoes_______ http://www.golite-footwear.com/ i love the shoes so i might buy the tent to :D
Berninbush
At the moment both of my brain cells are busy working on something else but at least I have taken some notice of your original post and refrained from posting whatever unrelated topic came to mind as it appears to be still the trend here....
After my last comment (13) the thought that your idea ( or something along those lines, or grid...) would at least add interior space, if not shed some weight as well, is starting to sound more appealing. There is a chance that eVent will be available soon as a tent fabric without the 70 cm heigt limit, but I suspect that it really works well only when fully enclosed , so as winter or high altitude solution and not for mild/rainy weather.
Three basic problems associated with silnylon in particular , but also present with other similar type of fabric, are :drips from condensation, misting and wet sleeping bags end from contact.
Two are easily fixed, get a tent that is longer than you think you need, the Tarptents are good for that even if you are over 6'.
Misting ( from penetration not from condensation been knocked off the fabric) can be solved by applying another thin coating of silicone, pretty much what Hilleberg have done to their " Kerlon". I have had this only on a few occasions and it has to be really heavy rain to occur.
The hardest is to stop drips from condensation. I typically wake up every few hours, check the ambient sounds, time and temperature and wipe the top.
So with both the Contrail and the Rainbow I don't have a problem but I could always make room for improvements...
What pops into mind at the moment is a grid on the roof area (where the condensation forms) and "drip lines", as you call them , down the sides continuing to the outside through the typical mesh in between the floor and the fly. If I get some time, I will do a "mock up " of that...
Franco
Not in the bush, at the moment
berninbush
10-13-2008, 18:57
Wow, an actual opinion from an actual tent-maker... I'm honored!
I'd love to hear how it comes out when you have time to play with it.
Sorry about that, I am not a tent maker, I can make a cup of tea but not a Tee pee(tipi), but I do share ideas with a couple of people that design tents .
It is always good to consider different ways of solving problems, challenging preconceived ideas it is what is all about.
Franco