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View Full Version : Stationary/camp wear: UnderArmor or Smartwool base layer.



crazypete
10-22-2008, 21:28
Good day folks! Over the last year, I've built up a pretty bombproof hiking kit. The last items for me to round out are my cold weather campwear, especially since I moved from a zero to a 25 degree bag: relying on some of my winter clothes to sleep in and close the gap.

Even in bitter cold, I have little problem staying warm when moving. But in camp, I found my lower half getting nippy. I've been going back and forth between.

1. Under armor heatgear top and bottom
2. Smartwool long john style top and bottom
3. or going for the mountain hardwear synthetic fill insulated pants.

I am planning on some hikes in the whites and maybe some winter camping in friendlier massachussetts climates. Cold but not mountaineering cold.

For existing clothing, I have
1. Under armor loose fitting heatwear t-shirt (silky stuff)
2. Under armor loose fitting heatwear longsleeve t-shirt (same stuff)
3. North face 100 weight quarter zip fleece
4. REI spruce run winter jacket
5. Thin zip off pants
6. Watch cap + Balaclava + baseball cap
7. Thin under armor gloves+ Thick mountain hardwear gloves
8. Rain coat + rain pants + WP gloves
9. Underwear + 2 sets of synthetic thorlo socks

What do you all think? This stuff is heavy so I want some opinions from others who have used these in the field in the winter.

Thanks in advance!

Bulldawg
10-22-2008, 21:31
I actually use a underarmour tight fitting long sleeve shirt under a merino wool set of long johns to sleep in, in the cold. I will usually hike in the under armor shirt and merino bottoms for the first section of the morning, changing at my first break usually. I then tie them on the outside of my pack to dry. They are usually dry and ready to store at lunch.

crazypete
10-22-2008, 21:36
Wow, that was a speedy response!

So you can actually hike in that heatgear? I find myself overheating very quickly wearing the UA top since it works so well. I reserve it for camp use because I need to strip down to take it off.

I never thought of using both systems together.... I'll have to try that out.

mts4602
10-22-2008, 21:38
I don't know if this is actually true, but my underarmor seems to only keep me warm when I am moving and generating heat since it's supposed to help trap body heat. I don't feel like it really helps when I am standing still/sitting around.

My suggestion would be to go with something else like merino wool or expedition weight polypro.

mts4602
10-22-2008, 21:39
Wow, that was a speedy response!

So you can actually hike in that heatgear? I find myself overheating very quickly wearing the UA top since it works so well. I reserve it for camp use because I need to strip down to take it off.

I never thought of using both systems together.... I'll have to try that out.

Yes, it works too well and I am hot hiking in it:)

Bulldawg
10-22-2008, 21:41
Well, I feel like it keep me warm. I don't think mine is called "heat wear". It's just like one of them bikers shirts I guess. I am not real sure. I just knew it was synthetic, that atheletes wore it to stay warm; so I thought I would try it. Like I said, I wear the under armor under a merino wool set I use. The next morning I am usually out in the merino bottoms under shorts. and the under armour under a loose fitting under armor shirt. And usually, unless it is really cold, I shed those two items at my first break.

On another note; you cannot beat the under armour biker length tight fitting under wear for hiking, especially in warm weather!!

Tipi Walter
10-22-2008, 21:42
Everybody's different, and people who spend enough time outdoors in the winter become acclimated to the cold, shrug it off, but it takes time. Beyond this, basecamping gear for me is both down-based and merino inspired. I won't part willingly with my Icebreaker merino bottoms and series of tops, and I won't forego the down jacket in the heart of cold season.

My lower half is pretty much oblivious to the cold, though if pushed I'd get a pair of down pants and be done with it. Short of standing around with a sleeping bag wrapped around you, down pants are the next best thing, pack into nothing, weigh nothing, and are never needed for actual hiking. So they stay dry and prized. Otherwise, give me merino.

Ranc0r
10-22-2008, 21:42
I am not sure I see the gain with the thin zip-off pants in winter. Are they wind shell pants, over your base layer, perhaps? Can you explain that aspect of your system please?

crazypete
10-22-2008, 22:19
I am not sure I see the gain with the thin zip-off pants in winter. Are they wind shell pants, over your base layer, perhaps? Can you explain that aspect of your system please?


My system is based on a long sleeve tshirt and my "base" pants. When it gets a bit colder, I put on my fleece. Then I switch my cap for my watch cap. Then I put on my winter coat.

->Finally, if it gets really cold, I add my under armor/merino wool lowers under the pants. If I'm super cold or it's windy, I put on my non breathable rain pants and thus I have a three layer system for the lower half of me where I am wearing the middle layer as a default.

But it takes a lot for the lower half of me to get cold while hiking. Even in snow and cold, I've been known to be running around with just my base pants. As long as I keep my core toasty, the extra ventilation at the legs keeps me from overheating. It's just when I stop moving that I need to cover up.

skinewmexico
10-22-2008, 22:47
I refuse to buy underarmour.

Tipi Walter
10-22-2008, 22:58
I refuse to buy underarmour.

I agree. Silk-on-skin is time tested and good enough.

mudhead
10-23-2008, 04:14
I refuse to buy underarmour.

If you can find it on sale, like a store closing, the tights($9) and boxers are sweet.

I would not pay full ticket, but I have enough to last me. $11 seems like alot for a pair of boxers, but they are worth $12.

I wish I could get brave enough to drop the money on a wool baselayer.

greentick
10-23-2008, 04:29
... But in camp, I found my lower half getting nippy. I've been going back and forth between.

1. Under armor heatgear top and bottom
2. Smartwool long john style top and bottom
3. or going for the mountain hardwear synthetic fill insulated pants.

...!

How about some army surplus field pant liners, cheap, synthetic and fairly light. http://www.rddusa.com/U-S-G-I-M-65-Pants-Liner-Military-Army-Liners-Army-Clothing-Military-Surplus-Military-Gear-Camouflage-Clothing-Army-Navy-Surplus-Vintage-Urban-Wear-Out-Wear-Us-Gi.html

Dirtygaiters
10-23-2008, 12:19
To be clear, Under Armour Heat Gear is designed to be worn in hot weather to keep you cool. The fabric is designed to feel cool against the skin and wick all your perspiration away from your skin as fast as possible. It's not the best choice to keep you warm in winter. Rather, you should be looking at Under Armour Cold Gear. This is essentially thin performance fleece, like capilene or waffle-checkered R fleece. To answer your question:

For existing clothing, I have
1. Under armor loose fitting heatwear t-shirt (silky stuff)
2. Under armor loose fitting heatwear longsleeve t-shirt (same stuff)
3. North face 100 weight quarter zip fleece
4. REI spruce run winter jacket
5. Thin zip off pants
6. Watch cap + Balaclava + baseball cap
7. Thin under armor gloves+ Thick mountain hardwear gloves
8. Rain coat + rain pants + WP gloves
9. Underwear + 2 sets of synthetic thorlo socks

You could revise items 1,2&4 into something like this:
1- Thin merino wool long sleeve (roll sleeves up and unzip the chest when too hot)
2- Big, puffy down jacket, like the Montbell Alpine down jacket or Feathered Friends Hyperion.
This combination has several advantages over your current set up because 1) a longsleeve merino will both be warmer, and more comfortable in warm weather than a longsleeve synthetic, so the shortsleeve synthetic is not necessary, and 2) the puffy down jacket is going to be much warmer than the REI Spruce Run jacket, which, to my understanding, only has a single layer of 1.8 oz/sq yd Primaloft. Also, since you're talking about augmenting a 25 degree sleeping bag, I think what you need most is lots of LOFT. A down jacket will have much more loft and be much warmer than a fleece of comparable weight.

For your lower half, I'd second Greentick's call for Army surplus field liners. Mine weigh approximately 10 ounces and are very warm when worn under a pair of rain pants. On the other hand, if you're willing to change the pair of pants you use for winter hiking (which I might recommend), then a pair of heavy mountaineering softshell pants with a 3/4 zip for warm weather ventilation and a thin capilene long underwear layer might be all you need--that's what I use as my winter bottom layer and it works great since the pants have insulation and windproofness built right in, but the side zips allow my to vent if they feel too hot.

JAK
10-23-2008, 12:57
Good day folks! Over the last year, I've built up a pretty bombproof hiking kit. The last items for me to round out are my cold weather campwear, especially since I moved from a zero to a 25 degree bag: relying on some of my winter clothes to sleep in and close the gap.

Even in bitter cold, I have little problem staying warm when moving. But in camp, I found my lower half getting nippy. I've been going back and forth between.

1. Under armor heatgear top and bottom
2. Smartwool long john style top and bottom
3. or going for the mountain hardwear synthetic fill insulated pants.

I am planning on some hikes in the whites and maybe some winter camping in friendlier massachussetts climates. Cold but not mountaineering cold.

For existing clothing, I have
1. Under armor loose fitting heatwear t-shirt (silky stuff)
2. Under armor loose fitting heatwear longsleeve t-shirt (same stuff)
3. North face 100 weight quarter zip fleece
4. REI spruce run winter jacket
5. Thin zip off pants
6. Watch cap + Balaclava + baseball cap
7. Thin under armor gloves+ Thick mountain hardwear gloves
8. Rain coat + rain pants + WP gloves
9. Underwear + 2 sets of synthetic thorlo socks

What do you all think? This stuff is heavy so I want some opinions from others who have used these in the field in the winter.

Thanks in advance!I am not good with brand names, but I think the under armour stuff is a bit gimmicky, and I think the layer business in general is a bit misunderstoof and misapplied. In my opinion, for cold weather and cold wet weather, the skin layer is just a way of adding more insulation, without increasing your total surface area or overcompressing your existing layers. For optimal cold weater performance we really only need two layers, a snug but loose insulation layer, and reasonably windproof but still reasonably breathable shell. When cold weather hiking over several days it doesn't make sense to think about optimal warmth to weight performance on most days, since you have to carry the stuff for the extreme weather in your pack anyways. Personally, I have found it best to leave my skin layer in the pack for the extreme cold, and wear my sweater all the time, perhaps putting my wind shell on if I stop for lunch or travel across a wind open area. I choose my layers for the worst conditions I might encounter, but hike most of the time withount a skin layer. Legs are sometimes and exception to this rule. I often hike of ski in winter with just a skin layer and shorts on my legs, and maybe flannel boxers to keep my butt warm, and just a wool sweater up top. Then if it gets really cold and wet or cold and windy I put a skin layer on under my wool sweater, a 100wt fleece top over my wool sweater, a light nylon wind layer over that, just snug enough; and on my legs some 200wt fleece pants over my skin layer and some loose and light nylon wind/rain pants over those, and my hiking shorts over everything to help keep it all together and give me some pockets. Then of course mitts and hats and stuff. It's nice to have hand pockets and belly level when hiking also, especially in cold weather, but it can be tricky getting to them under a light wind shell. Slits maybe. Anyhow, you have the idea.

I guess I am saying dress for the worst weather, and then remove layers from there. The skin layer top is the first thing I take off. As materials go, I favour a mix of wool and synthetic. For the skin layer I am not so fussy as long as its light and fuzzy and comfortable and snug fitting without being encumbering. I don't like the body armor stuff than seems too heavy for its function. Any medium/heavy wool layers I like keep on, so any medium/heavy extra layers I prefer 100wt or 200wt fleece so I don't have to worry about them getting wet. For wind shells I prefer cheap light nylon, reasonably breathable for my wind jacket, maybe a little more waterproof for wind/rain/snow pants. For heavy rain its a sylnylon rain poncho/tarp over everything.

JAK
10-23-2008, 13:21
My typical mid winter clothing system...

Feet:
thin wool socks - alternate and mix and match
medium wool socks - alternate and mix and match
heavy wool socks - alternate and mix and match
taller wool socks - alternate and mix and match

Bottom:
Long skin layer - silk or poly - NORMALLY WORN
200wt fleece pant - normally packed
Light Nylon Wind/Rain Pants - normally packed
Hiking Shorts - NORMALLY WORN

Top:
Skin layer - silk or poly or wool - normally packed
Medium/Heavy Wool Sweater - NORMALLY WORN
100wt or 200wt fleece over sweater - normally packed
Light Nylon Wind Jacket - normally packed
Sylnylon Rain Poncho/Tarp - normally packed

Hands and Head:
Medium Wool Mitts - kept handy
Medium Wool Hat - kept handy
Medium Wool Neck Tube Thingy - kept handy
Light Brimmed Hat - NORMALLY WORN
(Rain Poncho has hood also)

Extra Emergency Winter Sleep/Clothing gear:
Stanfields Long Underwear
I also have a pair of Stanfields 100% wool long underwear combis (trap door and all).
They are loose enough yet snug enough to fit over the skin layers and under the other layers without overcompressing anything. In mid-winter when really really cold or miserable weather is possible and I am out for more than a weekend I will bring them and keep them in reserve as emergency sleep wear and extra clothing layers. They are a good thing to keep in a car also, as they will fit under anything you might have on when you get stuck.

JAK
10-23-2008, 13:23
I usually bring along some cotton flannel boxers also, for extra warmth there.

Chenango
10-23-2008, 13:25
What is a Watch Cap?

Mags
10-23-2008, 15:06
What is a Watch Cap?

Specifically, it is a a type of military-issued winter hat, usually wool.
http://www.villagehatshop.com/goverment-issue_watch-cap.html

Generically, it means a beanie, toque, wool/fleece hat, ski hat, etc.

A winter head piece in other words.

JAK
10-23-2008, 15:29
Oops. I missed the title of the thread. Yeah, for stationary/camp wear, its different.

I say wool over thin cotton for around a camp, if you have a wood stove for washing and drying clothes every day or two. Wear the cotton underwear around camp, and the wool underwear when away from camp, and synthetic skin layers and fleece overlayers for extra stuff that remains packed until needed.

Zzzzdyd
10-23-2008, 16:28
Why would you go from a zero degree bag to a 25 degree bag for "winter"

hiking ?

I would imagine the clothes you would have to carry and use to make up

for the difference in sleeping bag rated temps would outweigh any

advantages of using the 25 degree bag ?

I have, and have used extensively:

1) Smartwool top and bottom.

2) Go-lite C-thru

3) Under-Armour.

I would rate them in the order I put them. Although I like the Under-Armour

best for motorcycling because it allows me and my outer clothes to move

easier about the bike, etc..

In my personal test I did before I did some cold winter canoeing Wool

offered some warmth factor when wet. Polypro and C-thru offered no

warmth until almost totally dry. Although I didn't time it, I believe the

Smartwool also dried faster. But that might be because after my self

induced dip in the cold creek, I took it off, wrung it out the best I could by

hand, put it back on along with my outer layer, and proceeded to make

camp in relative comfort in mid-thirties F temps. I was unable to do this

with Polypro and C-thru. I had to get in the safety tent and shiver awhile.

Don't do these kinds of test alone. Have a safety shelter with plenty of

warm blankets, and hot drinks ready so if your safety Doc thinks your

getting hypothermia treatment is easier and close. Mine was a ex Navy

corpsman so I felt pretty safe doing these just to find out test. Lots of

myths out there and unfortunately too many manufactures that at worst

over-hype and mis-represent their product(s) while not informing us about

what it won't do.

Try finding any unbiased test results and you see why I learned to test it

myself when I can.

I am a big klutz and have managed to get pretty wet in temps well below

freezing, so I know it can happen.

I vote for wool. The best you can afford.

Wags
10-23-2008, 17:06
jak i read your post and i can't quite get a grasp on you removing your innermost layer the most frequently. i can hardly imagine walking down a trail in winter and seeing you stripping down to bare skin to throw on your base layer to warm up... can you clear that up for me how that's efficient?

JAK
10-23-2008, 17:33
hikingPA,
Good question. Let me explain better.

Firstly, it applies mostly to my top half, so it is no big deal to remove my medium/heavy wool sweater to put a skin layer on underneath. The weight of my sweater depends on the season. Midwinter it can be pretty heavy and still not be too hot on pleasant days when I and active. By keeping it on all the time it never gets wet and cold. By keeping it on it has a chance to dry out when it does get damp from inside or out, and acts as a sort of thermal flywheel between warm activities and cold activities.

Secondly, I don't have to take it off very often to add a skin layer underneath, though it is always very refreshing when I do so. Taking your sweater off in winter and removing or adding a skin layer and then putting the sweater back on is a great way to shed some persperation moisture and invigourate your heat metabolism, and you get alot of the heat back from the sweater which was only off for an instant.

On a long trip in winter there is both course and fine temperature adjustment. Fine adjustment is achieved by such things as adding or removing hat and mitts when active, or throwing on a wind layer or fleece oversweater when stopping for a rest or meal, or before heading out to cross over a windy frozen lake or river. Course adjustment is what you need to do when the weather turns to the extreme for that month. That's when others might put on their down jacket. That is when I strip down and add my skin layer top, and perhaps my wool long underwear also that I might have kept in reserve and for sleeping, and then putting my heavy wool sweater back on again, and all my other layers. This would be in the context of stopping to prepare for a storm, and conserving energy as I move into it and stop early and prepare for it.

By keeping my top skin layer and wool underwear off MOST of the time, I am able to wear a heavier wool sweater all of the time. The total weight is about the same, but I have a more robust system, and more room in my pack.

Below the waist it is a little more conventional. I tend to wear a skin layer all the time, and add the fleece and/or wind pants as needed. Sometimes though I might switch the skin layer for the fleece layer, for different condition and to give the skin layer a break. The wool long underwear is kept for sleeping though, and storms, so I would strip down to put those on. The skin layer I might leave off if I did that. Depends. Hope that helps.

Anyhow, the skin layer top is the last layer I put on, figuratively speaking.

crazypete
10-23-2008, 17:55
[quote=Dirtygaiters;714029]To be clear, Under Armour Heat Gear is designed to be worn in hot weather to keep you cool. The fabric is designed to feel cool against the skin and wick all your perspiration away from your skin as fast as possible.

You could revise items 1,2&4 into something like this:
1- Thin merino wool long sleeve (roll sleeves up and unzip the chest when too hot)

For your lower half, I'd second Greentick's call for Army surplus field liners. quote]

I think I had the names backwards for the UA. The stuff for cold weather is the stretchy material with the fuzzy innner liner. Oddly, the description works either way cause I got both!

I might have to get some of those field liners. Apparently they come well recommended. I feel like they would be more multi-use than some insulated pants, which are very single use.

Do you think the merino wool long sleeve would work for summertime, though?

This kit above is designed for 4 seasons. I dont cycle things in and out, I always hike with the full kit. It because, in the whites, the temp can drop really quickly, even in summer and you dont want to get caught atop senor Washington without a winter jacket when a stromfront moves through.

But this is why it seems like I have some summer clothes mixed into my winter gear.

Jim Adams
10-23-2008, 17:55
I stopped buying anything but Smartwool since the first time I tried it....it is expensive but in a class by itself.

geek

crazypete
10-23-2008, 18:02
What is a Watch Cap?


A toque(?) took? However the canadians say it.

Its the stretchy wool cap that goes over your whole head and covers your ears. My favorite type of headgear.

crazypete
10-23-2008, 18:10
Why would you go from a zero degree bag to a 25 degree bag for "winter hiking ?


Here is the why.... I had an rei kilo zero a few months ago and camped in the fall and woke up with feathers EVERYWHERE. On me, all over my tent, in my backpack. No seam had really failed, the down just came through the lining. This is the by far not my first such experience with down filled clothing. My winter jacket, my vest, some camp shoes, they all had this problem. I'd had enough.

I was going synthetic and there was this fantastic REALLY LIGHT bag that packed down SMALL at my local gear store so cheap, I couldnt pass it up. It's also real warm for it's rating.

Then it dawned on me. I'm carrying all this clothing anyway for camp use, why not use it to boost my sleeping comfort and stay lightweight.

So to answer all the comments about down jackets and bags....I dont like down. It's fragile, expensive and it always comes out of whatever container it's stuffed into and makes a mess.

crazypete
10-23-2008, 18:16
hikingPA,

Anyhow, the skin layer top is the last layer I put on, figuratively speaking.


Yeah, same here.....cause if you heat up, you have to strip down to almost naked right there on the trail to take it off. Not for the bashful.

There's a lot of talk about merino wool layers and how warm they are. Hmmmmm, maybe you guys have different MW base layers than me. My UA seems a lot warmer. I think I have the microweight kind of MW that you can see through if you hold up.

Do you have any links to the "right kind" of smartwool/merino base layers?

JAK
10-23-2008, 19:08
I don't find much difference in the effectiveness of the lightest insulating skin layers, for the same weight, but I think in cold wet winter conditions you should include wool in your mix. If you don't or can't wear wool sweaters, but wear a combination of polyester fleece middle layers, and down jackets for colder stuff, then I think you should opt for a wool skin layer to add some robustness to your system for the cold wet stuff.

I think there are different wools for different purposes. For a wool skin layer, you need to go with merino, and the thinner the layer the finer the merino needs to be. However, for a light sweaters I think a shetland type virgin wool can be as effective as a merino as part of a total system, and for medium sweaters there are many good choices. The finer wools like merino and alpaca and some shetland fleeces can be warmer in dry conditions, but more prone to holding water and felting in cold wet conditions. I like a medium alpaca sweater for shear warmth in cold dry conditions, but a courser long fibered and well oiled hand knit sheeps wool like a british jersey type or an icelandic fleece type fisherman or ski sweater for cold wet conditions, and for mitts. They are warmer when wet, almost as warm when dry, when it is less important to be so, and generally more resistant to holes and felting. You really notice the difference between wet weather wools and dry weather wools when it comes to wearing mitts and gloves. For a heavy sweater, which I might wear in mid-winter, I like the same choices as for medium sweaters but hand knit with a thicker yarn.

In general I think people are far too willing to pay big bucks for machine made merino wool and smart wool sweaters, far too cheap and ignorant when it comes to buying something hand knit with truly superios wool from local mills here in Maine, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island. Smart wool is just a brand name. Merino is just a species. Extra fine says nothing of fibre length and crimps per inch and all that, or how the yarn is put together and how the garment is knit. You but some wool from Briggs and Little and you know exactly what your getting, and you wear a pair of wool mitts or ski socks made from the same and then you will know what real quality wool is.

Still, any wool of any type is good, as long as you don't pay too much for it unless its excellent. Some is better thin, some is better thick, and some is better wet, and some is better dry, but people generally pay way too much for mass produced brand names just because it says 'merino' or 'smart' or just because its pricey.

JAK
10-23-2008, 19:30
A toque(?) took? However the canadians say it.

Its the stretchy wool cap that goes over your whole head and covers your ears. My favorite type of headgear.I think there is a difference between a watch cap and a toque.

A real watch cap has that rounded military look to it, generally folded up once unless brought down about the ears, and is usually olive or navy, and though machine knit rather than hand knit they are an efficent crowned shape generally made of a good quality fishermans jersey type wool, which is a strong wool very suitable for cold wet conditions.

A toque in the modern sense is similar but a more rectangular and less efficient shape rather than crowned like a watch cap, and not neccessarily folded up. Though thats an option they are not as good at staying folded up. Sometimes has a pompom and sometimes extra long for fashion. Generally speaking they are double knit and machine made of an inferior wool or acrylic, and are not so good for cold wet conditions. They typically have hockey emblems on them, which brings up the most important point: Leafs suck. Go Habs Go.

I recently aquired an alpaca wool hat, with the ear flaps. Hand knit, excellent wool, very good fit, and none of those stupic fleece liners sewn in.

What's up with wool with fleece liners? If you want a light fleece beanie you can always get one and wear it separately for summer or not so cold conditions, but it really adds nothing to wool. If anything they keep each other from drying properly. Best to keep the fleece and wool as separate layers and mix and match them as you see fit. Also, if anything, fleece would go over the wool, not under.

trouthunter
10-23-2008, 19:37
This is what I use for winter:

5 deg. Mnt Hardware bag

I pick two of the following base layers for each trip.
Icebreaker merino (new, only used twice but I like them a lot)
Patagonia merino
Patagonia Capilene
Terramar EC2 Silk ( I use these to sleep in )

2 pair Thermax's Cool-max wicking sock
2 pair Smartwool Hikers or Expedition weight depending on temps

Mnt Hardware gloves
Light weight wool gloves
Neoprene lower face mask in real low temps

Mnt. Hardware windstopper cap

Micro fleece soft shell treated with Nikwax DWR
Mnt. Hardware shell

I also carry various other pants & tops as mid layers.

Tipi Walter
10-23-2008, 20:10
[quote=crazypete;71420

Do you have any links to the "right kind" of smartwool/merino base layers?[/quote]

Check out these beauties:
http://www.icebreaker.com/site/icebreaker_man_bodyfit260_leggings.html

JAK
10-23-2008, 20:37
What I like about those Icebreaker folks is the way everything has a product code, like 150, 200. 220, 260, etc, which I understand is in grams per square meter. Their lightest stuff is 140g per square meter, so about 4 oz for top or bottom which might have a square yard of fabric, depending on your size.

Still, for a given weight I think the whole merino thing is overblown. If you need 4oz or 6oz or 8oz wool skin layer, then yeah it needs to be merino, but for medium or heavy weight middle layer for over the skin layer, like a 12-16oz or 24oz or 32oz or even 48oz, it doesn't need to be merino, and for cold wet conditions, shouldn't be. Lots of good choices out there for the thicker layers. Merino is only best for the really thin stuff, and alpaca and cashmere and angora are shetland fleece are good choices in those light weights also, maybe not down to 4oz but certainly down to 8oz. I've seen silk/cashmere blends that are pretty awesome. 6oz probably. But there is not much to gained with a 4oz skin layer over a 8oz skin layer if you have to add the 4oz to another layer somewhere else anyway. For some extreme winter backup insurance, 100% wool Stanfields long underwear is just the ticket. $35 at their factory outlet. Weighs about 10-12 oz per square yard, but its merino, and just as warm for its weight as the thinner stuff, and much cheaper pound for pound.

Dirtygaiters
10-23-2008, 21:16
I might have to get some of those field liners. Apparently they come well recommended. I feel like they would be more multi-use than some insulated pants, which are very single use.

I just custom fitted my own field liners (basically ran the edge of each leg under the sewing machine and cut off the edge to alter them from baggy to slim-fitting) and I sewed some elastic into the waist and I think like this I could wear them walking, but like you say, insulated pants are single use only, unless you're hiking in the arctic. Also, after I trimmed my field liners down, they weigh a little less: 7.5 ounces rather than 10. That's about what my fleece tights weigh. Still, I dont' see what's wrong with a single use item like this in the winter. Normally I'm hiking in just my pants, but when I get to camp I need something to keep me warm so that's what these are for.



Do you think the merino wool long sleeve would work for summertime, though?

This kit above is designed for 4 seasons. I dont cycle things in and out, I always hike with the full kit. It because, in the whites, the temp can drop really quickly, even in summer and you dont want to get caught atop senor Washington without a winter jacket when a stromfront moves through.

But this is why it seems like I have some summer clothes mixed into my winter gear.

I don't get why someone would carry the same clothes for winter as for summer. If you bring a 25 degree sleeping bag in the summer in the case of a freak mountain storm and overnight low in the 30s, that's one thing, but you don't need a winter jacket or all the accompanying winter clothing at that time of year. If you learn to adapt your clothing for each season I think you'll find yourself carrying less weight and actually being warmer year-round.

Texasgirl
10-23-2008, 21:56
For recent trip to Rockies, I wanted a Smartwool (if I recall it seemed like literally it was the namebrand itself) base layer. At REI, nearly passed out from sticker shock. $70+ for one long sleeve shirt if I recall. Didn't have the heart to price the bottoms. I want to stay warm, just like crazypete. The silk longjohns aren't cutting it for me and I think the wool would be warmer - but not at those prices. Advice on brands/stores would be very appreciated.

Zzzzdyd
10-23-2008, 22:03
For recent trip to Rockies, I wanted a Smartwool (if I recall it seemed like literally it was the namebrand itself) base layer. At REI, nearly passed out from sticker shock. $70+ for one long sleeve shirt if I recall. Didn't have the heart to price the bottoms. I want to stay warm, just like crazypete. The silk longjohns aren't cutting it for me and I think the wool would be warmer - but not at those prices. Advice on brands/stores would be very appreciated.

This to pricey ?

http://www.llbean.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?categoryId=56490&storeId=1&catalogId=1&langId=-1&feat=56494-ppxs&dds=y

Jim Adams
10-23-2008, 22:04
For recent trip to Rockies, I wanted a Smartwool (if I recall it seemed like literally it was the namebrand itself) base layer. At REI, nearly passed out from sticker shock. $70+ for one long sleeve shirt if I recall. Didn't have the heart to price the bottoms. I want to stay warm, just like crazypete. The silk longjohns aren't cutting it for me and I think the wool would be warmer - but not at those prices. Advice on brands/stores would be very appreciated.

It is very expensive but if you try it, you will never go back to anything else. Watch for it on steep and cheap. I got a top for $24 and bottoms for $28 but you have to "catch" them when it happens because they sell out in just a few minutes.

geek

Wags
10-23-2008, 22:06
i picked up thin columbia 100% merino wool top and bottom at marshalls for $10 a piece. not nearly as soft as icebreaker or smartwool but for that price they serve as my lightest base layer

JAK
10-23-2008, 22:12
$50 is not bad for 100% wool underwear top ot bottoms, and I would pay that much if I say something I really wanted, size and shape wise. $20 is possible though, for most things, though it is easier to find tops than bottoms at that price, usually in the form of a light merino sweater. Good weight as an only layer in summer, or a skin layer in winter. You can get 100% merino wool underwear from Stanfields Factory Outlet in Truro, for $20 tops, $20 bottoms, or $35 combi. Good quality, but more of a winter weight. Great sleep wear to extend a sleeping bag below its range, especially for a down bag into cold wet conditions. Good insurance.

Jim Adams
10-23-2008, 22:17
So to answer all the comments about down jackets and bags....I dont like down. It's fragile, expensive and it always comes out of whatever container it's stuffed into and makes a mess.

You can find down gear cheap if you look hard enough.
I am NOT very easy on my down products. I don't baby them and I have yet to have one fail on me. I don't understand why you are having such problems.

geek

JAK
10-23-2008, 22:27
Places like Mardens in Maine, and LLBean factory outlet often have 100% wool stuff as cheap as $20 a piece. Places like Winners often carry outdoor stuff also. My wife got a WM 900 Flight Series down jacket there, way cheap. Hit and miss though. You only need so much clothing though, so buy good stuff that fits you and your system, but don't pay too much if you don't have to. Good wool lasts a long time. Same with good fleece. You learn to tell the difference by feel, not by brand names.

Zzzzdyd
10-23-2008, 22:31
Here is the why.... I had an rei kilo zero a few months ago and camped in the fall and woke up with feathers EVERYWHERE. On me, all over my tent, in my backpack. No seam had really failed, the down just came through the lining. This is the by far not my first such experience with down filled clothing. My winter jacket, my vest, some camp shoes, they all had this problem. I'd had enough.

I was going synthetic and there was this fantastic REALLY LIGHT bag that packed down SMALL at my local gear store so cheap, I couldnt pass it up. It's also real warm for it's rating.

Then it dawned on me. I'm carrying all this clothing anyway for camp use, why not use it to boost my sleeping comfort and stay lightweight.

So to answer all the comments about down jackets and bags....I dont like down. It's fragile, expensive and it always comes out of whatever container it's stuffed into and makes a mess.

I have had nothing but great experiences using down bags and jackets for

years and years. Sorry yours went so bad in such a messy way.

You might want to consider taking extra fuel for "hotrocks" as I believe if it

gets down into the teens F degrees, that unless your a real warm sleeper

you will be needing to do some. Just a suggestion, hopefully helpful.

JAK
10-23-2008, 22:36
The thing about down is that it doesn't really pay off until you get thick, and you still need some other layers so you never need something that thick except for a sleeping bag or quilt. It might be possible to eliminate a wind layer if you carry a down layer, but you still need a rain layer, and in heavy cold rain you really shouldn't wear the down layer even under a heavy rain layer, which again leaves you with thicker other layers and less need for a thick down layer. What's good enough for cold wet conditions is usually good enough for colder dry conditions. Down is really for sleeping bags and quilts, unless you are going arctic or alpine. For day trips and driving around a down jacket is awesome, but for extended backpacking trips I don't think it really works into a system unless you are someplace it is consistently very cold and dry. That ain't the Maine Woods. Whites in winter? Maybe. I don't know.

JAK
10-23-2008, 22:50
It would be nice to be able to buy light weight wool hiking pants, or breeches.
The stuff at L.L.Beans for hunting is way too heavy and clumsy, and way to pricey.

Does anyone may a decent pair of light weight wool hiking pants, or breeches? I would like something in a course tweed, good for wet weather but not to tightly woven. They don't need to be wind proof. My goal would be to wear them all of the time, and then add another layer under and a wind layer over if it got really cold. For the rest of the time I would like them to breath though, and be a water resistant tweed. I wouldn't want them full length either. Somewhere below the knee, with wool knee socks to make up the difference when needed. Breeks basically. Wind pants and long underwear would be full length though. Anyone still make such a thing? I've asked before. I saw one pair but they were very expensive and not my size, and had some extra in place that was not really neccessary though I could have lived with it. Some wool dress pants could be made to work, except the liners and pockets are wrong for hiking. I will keep looking, or perhaps have something made. Meanwhile wool underwear and light brushed nylon hiking pants are fine.

hnryclay
10-23-2008, 23:09
JAK, have you tried the Army Issue wool trousers? I see them often online on Surplus stores. Generally I don't use military surplus gear because of the weight/size, however I think I might pick up a pair just to try them out.

JAK
10-24-2008, 01:34
Haven't tried those yet. I would like to try a pair if I come across a pair that are light enough. I would imagine they varied in weight. I doubt a lighter pair like I have in mind would have survived this long, unless they are still made someplace. I don't think they need to be that heavy. A course tweed, but loosely woven. The military and hunting types were fairly wind proof. I think some you could even inflate as life preservers. Saw that in a RCMP training film once. My idea is to add a wind layer over top once needed, but to be reasonably cool and breathable otherwise.

crazypete
10-24-2008, 08:13
If you learn to adapt your clothing for each season I think you'll find yourself carrying less weight and actually being warmer year-round.

I find myself warmer year round from huffing anf puffing lugging all that around. :D

It's not that bad actually. Trail weight with tent/bag/thermarest/all those clothes/raingear/a well stocked loose item bag/camera gear/1 ltr water/4 days food/cart. stove/filter/atmos65 pack etc...

= 33 pounds

Not that shabby at all.

crazypete
10-24-2008, 08:16
For recent trip to Rockies, I wanted a Smartwool (if I recall it seemed like literally it was the namebrand itself) base layer. At REI, nearly passed out from sticker shock. $70+ for one long sleeve shirt if I recall. Didn't have the heart to price the bottoms. I want to stay warm, just like crazypete. The silk longjohns aren't cutting it for me and I think the wool would be warmer - but not at those prices. Advice on brands/stores would be very appreciated.


I've come to accept that you get what you pay for. If you want the lightweight, compressible and effective high tech stuff, you have to shell out the leafy greens.

Just bite the bullet and get them. These items usually last for a long time so consider it more of an investment in your long term comfort than a single purchase. What can be more important than that? $70 isnt worth what it used to be.

JAK
10-24-2008, 08:53
Nah. It can be fun to bargain shop, and some clothing systems are better suited than others to the frugally minded. Depends on where you live also, what is useful, and what can be found cheap. I will pay near top dollar for a few key items though. I paid $100 for my Jam2 pack. Could have made one I guess, but got tired of putting it off. The other is a few hand knit woolen goods. I can wait and find light merino sweaters and skin layers and wind layers and poncho tarp very cheap, like $20 on average, but for a top quality hand knit medium sweater made locally with local wool, yeah I'll pay the old ladies what their worth. OK, maybe I'll try and chisel them down to $100 for a wool sweater, or $20 for a really nice hat, or mitts, or socks. I have paid more though. I don't mind paying a little for some Alpaca or Llama stuff from South America, as long as its fair trade stuff, and top quality. Saw a really nice poncho where I got my hat, the real deal. Too pricey for me, but it would be nice to try hiking in and sleeping under a real poncho someday. The one other thing I might pay near top dollar for someday is a top quaility down sleeping bag, but I'm still getting by without one, and my total weight is not all that much, even in winter, so it would have to be just the right one and a really sweet deal. Yeah, I'm a dirt bag, but I'm a warm enough dirt bag.

crazypete
10-24-2008, 11:24
You can find down gear cheap if you look hard enough.
I am NOT very easy on my down products. I don't baby them and I have yet to have one fail on me. I don't understand why you are having such problems.

geek


I dont either. I've never done anything stupid like machine wash my bag or leave it compressed. I've read all the literature, I know the procedure. And, in defence of the kilo zero, it's a damn good bag with good construction, same as winter coat. But the escape of down seems inenvitable and if the feathers are in my tent, they are not in the bag, helping me keep warm.

Lyle
10-24-2008, 13:30
Haven't tried those yet. I would like to try a pair if I come across a pair that are light enough. I would imagine they varied in weight. I doubt a lighter pair like I have in mind would have survived this long, unless they are still made someplace. I don't think they need to be that heavy. A course tweed, but loosely woven. The military and hunting types were fairly wind proof. I think some you could even inflate as life preservers. Saw that in a RCMP training film once. My idea is to add a wind layer over top once needed, but to be reasonably cool and breathable otherwise.


Have you tried Salvation Army or the like? Old wool suit pants work quite well. Don't have any now, but have used them in the past.

JAK
10-24-2008, 13:36
Have you tried Salvation Army or the like? Old wool suit pants work quite well. Don't have any now, but have used them in the past.I do search places like that, and I did find one pair of tweedy wool dress pants that worked great, especially after one washing, but I cut into the wool here and there when I removed some of the lining. They sort of self destructed shortly after that and were a bit oversized anyway. Problem is alot of wool pants have cotton linings and pockets and such. They really need to be all wool.

Dirtygaiters
10-24-2008, 13:41
I find myself warmer year round from huffing anf puffing lugging all that around. :D

It's not that bad actually. Trail weight with tent/bag/thermarest/all those clothes/raingear/a well stocked loose item bag/camera gear/1 ltr water/4 days food/cart. stove/filter/atmos65 pack etc...

= 33 pounds

Not that shabby at all.


I mean more along the lines of having a summer set up like this:
-light sleeping pad, 30 degree bag, short sleeves, fleece vest or pullover for cold nights, and shorts or very lightweight/highly breathable pants
...and a winter set up like this:
-heavy winter pad, 0 degree bag, long sleeve fleece or wool shirt, fleece hat, gloves, winter hiking pants, puffy down jacket, fleece long underwear, insulated camp booties/heavy sleeping socks
^ Just looking at the number and comparable weights of the items in that short list should be a general indication of how you can significantly lighten your load in the summer without compromising your safety (simply by not packing what you won't be using), and how if you keep fleece layers to a minimum in the winter by using down or high-loft synthetics in their place, you can cut down on weight and bulk in the winter as well.

JAK
10-24-2008, 14:35
I would say total clothing, not counting shoes, would be as little as 2 pounds in summer down to 50F to as much as 10 pounds in winter down to -30F. There are alot more variables than that, and it depends on the rest of your gear also, but I would say you need about 1 pound of clothing for every 10degF below 70F, as a practical rule of thumb, including the effects of wind and rain and fatigue. As for the rest of the gear, not counting consumables, that might be roughly the same as your clothing weight, so in total perhaps 2 pounds of clothing and gear for every 10degF below 70F. Yeah, you can probably go naked at 70F. Above that you are getting into heat stroke and stuff though, and so in practice you need clothing and gear for both warm and hot conditions when the temperature is as low as 50F. This is just off the top of my head, and depends on personal gear choices and stuff also, and practical considerations like having only 1 or 2 gear choices in certain key areas. I think its a pretty good rule of thumb though, for the type of hiking I do, and just off the top of my head. We can actually get frost any day of the year here, so I really need to start at about 40F, but I'll start at 50F. Notice that most of the variability is in winter alone. Months were -30F is possible might require twice as much gear as trips were the risk is only down to +20F.

Minimal weights, skin out, not counting consumables.
Roughly 50% of this should be clothing, not counting footwear.
Summer down to +50F: 4 pounds
Summer down to +40F: 6 pounds
Spring/Fall dn to +30F: 8 pounds
Spring/Fall dn to 20F: 10 pounds
Winter down to +10F: 12 pounds
Winter down to +-0F: 14 pounds
Winter down to -10F: 16 pounds
Winter down to -20F: 18 pounds
Winter down to -30F: 20 pounds

These are minimal, and in practice I think more buffer is needed in winter,
but that really depends on how deep you are going, and many other factors.

JAK
10-24-2008, 14:51
For consumables, it depends mostly on how many calories you are planning and capable of burning each day, less how much body fat calories you are planning and capable of burning each day, plus some additional factoring for extra days due to weather delays and such, which are also more severe in winter. For myself, I like to be active all day summer or winter, but like bring more food in winter and burn more body fat in summer. Perhaps for me a good rule of thumb might be a minimum of 1 pound per day, plus an additional 0.2 pounds per day for every 10 degF the minimal dail temperatue might fall below 20degF.

Usually though I just figure on 1 pound per day in summer, 1.5 pounds per day in spring/fall, and 2 pounds per day in winter. And for total skin out weight, not counting food and water, I am more typically 10 pounds in summer, 15 pounds in spring/fall, and at least 20 pounds midwinter, usually more because I need extra clothing to make up for a less than ideal sleeping bag. I also go with shorter trips in winter with multiple exit points, but I still like to be prepared though, cause its fun to do so if nothing else.

Texasgirl
10-24-2008, 14:56
Okay, I need to get busy bargain shopping then! Thanks.

JAK
10-24-2008, 14:58
Yeah, and now you can just buy it by the pound. ;) LOL

crazypete
10-24-2008, 15:02
I mean more along the lines of having a summer set up like this:
-light sleeping pad, 30 degree bag, short sleeves, fleece vest or pullover for cold nights, and shorts or very lightweight/highly breathable pants
...and a winter set up like this:
-heavy winter pad, 0 degree bag, long sleeve fleece or wool shirt, fleece hat, gloves, winter hiking pants, puffy down jacket, fleece long underwear, insulated camp booties/heavy sleeping socks
^ Just looking at the number and comparable weights of the items in that short list should be a general indication of how you can significantly lighten your load in the summer without compromising your safety (simply by not packing what you won't be using), and how if you keep fleece layers to a minimum in the winter by using down or high-loft synthetics in their place, you can cut down on weight and bulk in the winter as well.


See...for me, instead of light and heavy, I go with light+medium together to equal a heavy. Thats why none of my gear looks really appropriate until you realize it is all worn together. A silk shirt+ 100 wt fleece+ spruce run jacket is enough for even the bitter cold of new england. I toss on my raincoat when it gets windy.

I've done deliberate tests before I headed out with it by dressing up in my layer system on one of the bitter coldest nights last year and putting a patton air ciculator cage fan blowing on me to simulate EXTREME wind chill and sat there for 2 hours and didnt feel cold at all. (that was with under armor).

When I headed out on trail, I got similar good results.

The real beauty here is: the winter kit is exactly the summer kit plus 1 jacket and some under armor + gloves = 2 pounds. I have to carry pants and rain gear anyway. Pretty clever, huh?

JAK
10-24-2008, 15:13
That is pretty clever, and it does sometimes work out that way, but it really depends on the climate extremes you are actually comparing. It is certainly the case that if we can carry it in winter we can carry it in summer also. It is not always the case that we need to.

JAK
10-24-2008, 15:24
Depends most on how extreme your winter conditions might actually get, and how many days you might actually be out in them if you are forunate enough to really get hammered out there. Also folks that go up peaks in summer and stay below the treeline in extreme winter conditions are likely to get less extremes from summer to winter. For myself, where I do pretty much all my hiking in the woods along the the Fundy coast here, the range of extreme minimum temperature varies from abiut 35F in July, to -35F in January. Using my rule of thumb I would need 3.5 pounds of clothing in July, and 10.5 pounds of clothing in January. In practice I actually carry less than that in July, and more than that in January, probably closer to 3 pounds July and 12 pounds in January. Alot of that is because of the rest of my kit though. Thing is, I use pretty much all my clothing on a daily basis anyway, year round, so I don't mind having alot of stuff to mix and match with. It all gets used eventually, and its pretty much all from bargain shopping.

JAK
10-24-2008, 15:32
I suppose it is easier to avoid altitude than latitude. You really don't want to get stuck on a mountain in a winter storm even in Georgia, but at least there is a place to go, down. In the Northern woods if you get hammered with -30F for a few days its easier to get out of the wind, but its not so easy to get away from the cold. Not saying its tougher, just saying you might be able to get away with less total winter clothing down south, even on cold mountains, as long as you get off the mountain when you need to. Of course some folks like Tipi just head right on up, maybe not to the very top but high enough to poke his nose right into it. I would guess that his winter kit is considerably heavier than his summer kit, unless of course in summer he really like to get way up there in the worst of it.

Wags
10-25-2008, 00:34
i don't know why under armour is getting such a bad rep here. it works very well for me. as someone else pointed out, coldgear for cold, heatgear for hot

mudhead
10-25-2008, 06:17
Because it is spendy, and logo popular. If it were 1/2 price, it would still be expensive.

JAK
10-25-2008, 08:50
I prefer to think in terms of the actual materials and their physical properties by their generic names, rather than trendy brandnames and trademarks. I know, I know, a lot of common materials like nylon and dacron and are or were once just fancy new trademarks, but at least I know exactly what they are, and what they ain't. Stuff like 'underarmour' and 'smartwool' and 'coolmax' and 'polartec' doesn't interest me. Even if I try it once, and I like it, there is no guarantee over time it will be the same material next time I buy it.

Tell me what it really is, then I might be interested.

Wags
10-25-2008, 11:16
under armour/nike dryfit is no more expensive than capilene or any of the big wool brands base layers. i actually like wool pretty well and probably choose it 50% of the time, but the UA and nike stuff works just fine.

i pick mine up at stores like Marshalls for $10-$15 a shirt. way less expensive than any wool/capilene/brand name 'wicking' shirt

JAK
10-25-2008, 12:33
I would like to know exactly what is meant by 'wicking' layers.
I've heard that for years, for both cold weather and hot weather.
I think it makes sense for cold weather. That's what cotton does.

I don't think it really applies to cold weather. In cold weather it just a matter of staying warm with just enough ventilation to manage moisture. Wicking has little to do with it. Skin layers are useful the way they hold a little damp heat close to the body and under the others layers before passing the moisture on, but all slin layers do that. Wool does it best, but for thin skin layers there isn't much difference. Anything but cotton, and as a skin layer even cotton works if it is thin enough and under wool, though not well. For the thicker middle layers there is a bit of a trade off between layers like wool that manage moisture by being able to hold more and stull insulate, and layers like polyester fleece that manage moisture by holding as little as possible to begin with. That's were cotton kills, but the others are a tradeoff, and quality makes more of a difference in middle layers. For extra layers that are normally packed, and might have to be repacked, fleece and down have advantages over wool, with fleece being better in wet conditions above and below freezing, and down being better in dry conditions well below freezing. For rain shell and wind shells I think lightness is the name of the game, in order to be highly packable, and to leave more wieght for the insulation layers that do the real work.

In cold weather the biggest advantage of skin layers is just to add some insulation in otherwise unused real estate beneath the looser middle layers, and in allowing versatility in responding to changes in temperature from one day to the next by mixing and matching layer. Moisture management is part of it, but its mostly about real estate and managing r-value. I hike most of the time in winter with nothing under or over my wool sweater. The other layers are for when I stop or conditions deteriorate and I slow down to conserve energy in anticipation of a storm.

fiddlehead
10-25-2008, 17:31
I would like to know exactly what is meant by 'wicking' layers.
I've heard that for years, for both cold weather and hot weather.
I think it makes sense for cold weather. That's what cotton does.


I don't think so. Maybe you have some special cotton that i haven't seen.
When you sweat in an active endeavor (like backpacking up a mountain) you need the wicking layers (poly or wool) to move that moisture away from the body.
Cotton holds it. Simple as that.
cotton is fine for the summer when it acts as an air conditioner and keeps you cool. It's not good for the winter unless you are perhaps sitting and not sweating.

Simple test: put on a lightweight wicking layer: silk, poly, or wool, and THEN a cotton shirt, and THEN another wicking layer (poly, fleece, micro-fleece, wool), and go out and climb a big mountain fast, or jog or lift weights or something like that.
Then come in and take off all your layers. You'll see what a "wicking layer" is and why cotton is not a good idea in the cold.

crazypete
10-31-2008, 07:10
Allright guys, so I slpurged and picked up a midweight smartwool longjohns upper/lower set and I am very pleased with how effective it is. Much lighter than the under armor and less....restrictive. Much warmer feeling.

I'm a happy camper! Thanks for all of your collective wisdom.

JAK
10-31-2008, 07:16
I don't think so. Maybe you have some special cotton that i haven't seen.
When you sweat in an active endeavor (like backpacking up a mountain) you need the wicking layers (poly or wool) to move that moisture away from the body.
Cotton holds it. Simple as that.
cotton is fine for the summer when it acts as an air conditioner and keeps you cool. It's not good for the winter unless you are perhaps sitting and not sweating.

Simple test: put on a lightweight wicking layer: silk, poly, or wool, and THEN a cotton shirt, and THEN another wicking layer (poly, fleece, micro-fleece, wool), and go out and climb a big mountain fast, or jog or lift weights or something like that.
Then come in and take off all your layers. You'll see what a "wicking layer" is and why cotton is not a good idea in the cold.Sorry I messed up there.
I meant to say maybe it makes sense for hot weather, that's what cotton does.