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I,m leading a talk or discussion on the AT on 19 November 2008 for Aldult Leaders of a youth group (Boy Scouts) in Ulster County, NY. Whould like to hear from this group on what topics should be discussed.
BT
LNT
Staying found
Shelter ethics
Opportunities for day hikes and 2-3 day trips within 75 miles
Other Trails (NY's Long Path and Northville Placid Trail)
Good luck!
Wise Old Owl
10-23-2008, 09:48
The Scouting organization is great on emergencies, group hiking, and all the basics, where they fall down a lot on is Light Backpacking, They don't have to be under ten pounds, they are still taking too much heavy material with them. Show them bear bones adjustments in their packs per season as some troops are out year round. Their biggest mistake is a cheap & heavy sleeping bag that isn't seasonal - let me know if you need more.
First and last, I would encourage the heck out of them. It seems to me that boy scouts and girl guides spend way too much time indoors and not enough time outdoors. I would also enourage splitting up into smaller groups, not so much to discourage larger groups, just because I think they can have more fun and learn more and be more manageable in smaller groups. As I recall the troops are already sub-divided into sixes or whatever they are called. You might need more parents, unless you have some older scouts or guides, but that's not a bad thing either. You can combine the less experienced adults with more the experienced scouts/guides so one adult per group should be sufficient. Once you are down to manageable groups of 6-10 its no different than any other backpacking trip. Not sure what the group size restrictions are, but with proper organization and good communications, as you should expect a scout/guide troop, it should not be a problem. The last thing I would add would be to run it like a military operation, standardizing clothing and gear and food. The adult can simply observe and recommend and be responsible for communications and relaying orders from up the chain of command, and as a back check on navigation and safety, and too provide some comfort and leadership if a situation arises. The scout leader of the 6-10 can enforce stuff like regular roll call, what clothes to put on for a given activity, when to stop, when to move, when to eat, and apoint a second to do stuff like navigation. Perhaps they can take turns as leader under the direction of the adult. I am not sure about Girl Guides, but I now that boys thrive on this kind of stuff, and a mix troop of boys and girls is pretty much the same.
Points:
1. Organize - into manageable sub-units of 6-10, and buddy up within those units.
2. Communications - between sub-units and to a central command.
3. Standardize - clothing and gear and food.
4. Minimize - non-essentil junk food and junk gear.
5. Basically, run it like a military operation. Its fun.
Not sure if that answers your question. Sounds like you are already on the right track if you are starting with a meeting for the Adult Leaders. I would start by discussing what role they are to play, and then how to organize and facilitate the scouts to enforce their own rules and lead their own groups, with an adult as an observer as each group.
NICKTHEGREEK
10-23-2008, 10:09
I,m leading a talk or discussion on the AT on 19 November 2008 for Aldult Leaders of a youth group (Boy Scouts) in Ulster County, NY. Whould like to hear from this group on what topics should be discussed.
BT
Tell the leaders to plan every trip by the BP merit badge and scouting LNT guidelines. Keep the crews small!
Another thought, would be to first have the group of adult leaders/observers come up with a list of activities, then string all of those activities and subactivities into a plan, and then to figure out the organization and communication and rules to carry out the plan.
List of Possible Activities:
1. Initial/Final Rendevouz and Inspection.
2. Transportation to/from and Trail Head.
3. Route marches
4. Setting up Camp
5. Meals and Ablutions
6. Field Kit Inspections
7. Leave No Trace or Low Impact Woodcraft - making fire and tea
8. Leave No Trace or Low Impact Woodcraft - making a hiking stick
9. Leave No Trace or Low Impact Woodcraft - plant recognition
10. Leave No Trace or Low Impact Woodcraft - keeping a field note book
11. Troop Gatherings - usual routine, whatever that is
12. Troop Activities and Competitions - usual routines, whatever they are
13. Ghost stories
Fiddleback
10-23-2008, 10:27
LNT
Staying found
Shelter ethics
Opportunities for day hikes and 2-3 day trips within 75 miles
Other Trails (NY's Long Path and Northville Placid Trail)
Good luck!
LNT and outdoor ethics first came to my mind...
The last time I hiked the C&O Canal I passed a group of scouts with two or three adult leader heading the other way. One of the adults was carrying an ax. A little further down the tow path I ran into multiple chopped down trees, most 3 to 5" in diameter. I didn't have proof but the coincidence of the ax-toting adult 'leader' and the very freshly cut down trees would have had me voting 'guilty.' I had a long Scouting career, virtually all of it in that area...and what I saw sickened and angered me.
Yeah...teach LNT...and teach 'em to get rid of those SOB's if they can't learn. IMHO.:mad:
FB
Tell the leaders to plan every trip by the BP merit badge and scouting LNT guidelines. Keep the crews small!Is there a link. I am curious, and out of date. I do all my scouting now one on one with my daughter but would really like a good source of ideas. She has joined a Girl Guide troop but it seems like its all indoors stuff, so we are doing the outdoors stuff on our own. It would be nice if there were more like minded adults, but around here there just ain't. I have managed a few short dayhikes with another parent and their kids but that is about it.
I say one link awhile back that was right up my alley. It was more parent/child based and seemed to draw alot of inspiration from Native Americans. Anyone recall the name of it so I can google it? It was called pathfinders or something keepers or something like that. I always thought it would be great to merge the two ideas into one, involving parents more, and focusing more on the outdoors, but more kids also. I like the native american theme also, but think a little military organization theme is good also, and quite natural, and not all that different really. I guess I am mostly just thinking about a return to the way scouting used to be or was meant to be. It always had that urban/citizen component to it, which is excellent, but I think getting out into nature and the real outdoors has to be the real heart of it, in my opinion. Otherwise its just another thing to keep them occupied, and away from living a real life.
Depending on where you live I think expecting boy scouts to be LNT is a bit extreme. Obviously they need to be tought follow the rules, more than anyone, but if any group should be encouraged to get out there and enjoy the outdoors and practice environmentally sensitive wood skills and wood craft it should be our young people. Perhaps trail maintenance would be a good activity for guide and scout troops.
Frankly, I am consistently amazed at all the negative comments about scouts on this forum. I don't care what they do. If they do stuff wrong they need to fix it, but they need to be made to keep trying. They have more right to be there than we do, in my opinion. I am squarely on their side. They are the future so we better help them get out there and learn to get it right, not to stay home and screw it up from a distance.
skinewmexico
10-23-2008, 11:27
Stay found. What a great saying.
They push LNT pretty heavy down here, and it comes from National. As much as it irritates a lot of people, Scouts are the only organization actively pushing an outdoor lifestyle (that I know of), so we need to support them.
I bought the "Lighten Up" CD for $5 from Gossamer Gear to show to our troop. It's really good.
Christus Cowboy
10-23-2008, 11:42
The Scouting organization is great on emergencies, group hiking, and all the basics, where they fall down a lot on is Light Backpacking, They don't have to be under ten pounds, they are still taking too much heavy material with them. Show them bear bones adjustments in their packs per season as some troops are out year round. Their biggest mistake is a cheap & heavy sleeping bag that isn't seasonal - let me know if you need more.
I agree with the Owl on this one.... My interactions with the Boy Scouts have been good but my observations back up what Owl is saying here..... In fact the last three scout troops that I ran into on the trail had packed way too much for the weekend trips they were on, many of them used cotton clothing during the winter months which further accelerated hypothermia and one of the troops seemed surprised when I offered to help them "hang their food" in camp..... Much of the overpacking is because of concerned parents but some updating of Boy Scout material as it relates to backpacking would probably help here......
The Scouting organization is great on emergencies, group hiking, and all the basics, where they fall down a lot on is Light Backpacking, They don't have to be under ten pounds, they are still taking too much heavy material with them. Show them bear bones adjustments in their packs per season as some troops are out year round. Their biggest mistake is a cheap & heavy sleeping bag that isn't seasonal - let me know if you need more.When I was a kid my scout troop knew nothing on appropriate gear. We were out there in cotton socks, blue jeans, and flannel shirts. Every trip meant bad blisters. Our tents desperately needed a new waterproof coating/seam sealing. Looking back, every piece of gear out troop had was in bad need of preventative maintenance, but nobody knew what to do.
One big constraint is money. I know that my dad would not shell out the money for anything more expensive than Wal-Mart. Our troop lacked the knowledge and money to make it work like I do these days. Tell the leaders about cheap solutions like dress socks and athletic clothes from Wal-Mart.
one of the troops seemed surprised when I offered to help them "hang their food" in campI never heard about hanging my food when I was in scouts.
Is there a link...
Sure, all current merit badge requirements (http://usscouts.org/usscouts/mb/mb026.asp)are online. The Backpacking MB book is excellent! I've given a few backpacking talks for my boys' troop in recent years. PM me if you'd like a copy of the PPT slides I used for the presentation. I try to convey that a different mindset is needed for a trek vs. a typical Scouting base-camp experience, and focus on bringing only essentials, minimizing weight, proper foot care, not skimping on water, and minimizing impact to the environment.
LNT is well-entrenched in the current BSA literature (Handbook, Fieldbook, merit badge books), but I reckon there may be several Scouting adults who were raised pre-LNT and need to unlearn some outdoor habits
trippclark
10-23-2008, 12:25
I,m leading a talk or discussion on the AT on 19 November 2008 for Aldult Leaders of a youth group (Boy Scouts) in Ulster County, NY. Whould like to hear from this group on what topics should be discussed.
BT
I taught a 2 hour workshop at our council's University of Scouting in 2006 on the topic of Backpacking. I'd be happy to e-mail you my outline (rough though it is) if you'd like. Just PM me with your e-mail address.
Tripp
Tell them about freezer bag cooking as well. On base camp style trips we had cooking groups and cleaning groups and a schedule for it and it sucked. I would have rather boiled some water and been done with it.
Rain Man
10-23-2008, 13:14
I,m leading a talk or discussion on the AT on 19 November 2008 for Aldult Leaders of a youth group (Boy Scouts) in Ulster County, NY. Whould like to hear from this group on what topics should be discussed.
Well, since you asked, I think they hear enough about packs and pants and food and water, I think they need to hear about morals and ethics and leadership.
I've run into a variety of Boy Scout groups on the AT over the years and have found some to be just wonderful and some that should be run out of the Scouts and out of our national parks. The sad reality is that it only takes those few Scouts, Troops, and Scoutmasters/Leaders to be the bad apples that spoil the whole bunch. And one bad leader does spoil the whole troop.
I don't mean to say that they do it on purpose, but since you asked, I'd say topics that need to be discussed are morals and ethics and leading by example (or whatever words you care to use to describe the subject of honesty, abiding by the law, respect for others, and so forth).
As I said, I've run across just as many who are great.
Rain:sunMan
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Christus Cowboy
10-23-2008, 15:07
Sure, all current merit badge requirements (http://usscouts.org/usscouts/mb/mb026.asp)are online. The Backpacking MB book is excellent! .......there may be several Scouting adults who were raised pre-LNT and need to unlearn some outdoor habits
bri... I'm glad you posted.... you stated the Backpacking MB is excellent which I'm sure is. I just know when I speak with scouts and their leaders on the trail there seems to be a strong emphasis of being prepared which is a great premise in an of itself. That said, though I wonder if the cultural anchor of being prepared translates into these troops bring alot more gear than is necessary? Just a thought......
I assume you're talking to a group at some training session, and don't have any idea as to the experience level (scouting, outdoors, or backpacking), so you'll have to start from the basics and work up from there, staying pretty high level. I'd focus on:
* SM should keep it fun, making sure the challenge level is appropriate to each unit's group of scouts
* short history / current challenges of the AT
* emphasize LNT (challenge the group to recite the Outdoor Code - I'll bet most won't be able to)
* cover trail / shelter ethics and courtesy
* if it's your "thing," basics of lightweight backpacking. I've seen many scouts show up for their first trip with too much weight (altho' under the "30 % of body weight" rule), and never be seen again.....
One thing our troop started a few years ago: have an "essentials" list for every backpacking trip. Give out an award for the scout (maybe even one award for the younger, first year scouts and another for the older scouts) that has the lowest pack weight, and has all the essentials. We usually do a $25 gift certificate to Bass Pro Shop or REI.... We always do a pack inspection for all scouts under 1st class either the Monday night before the trip, or the Friday night that we leave. The issue is usually NOT dealing with what they don't have, but going through and taking out what they don't need.....
Time To Fly 97
10-23-2008, 16:00
AT overview - fun facts like length, what the blazes look like, mountain ranges covered, pictures, blue blazes usually lead to water or views
Typical gear, evolution in gear (tent to tarp to hammock, etc.), bombproof to lightweight, heavy boots to trail runners, advances in clothing, "surviving it" to "how comfortable can I get?"
AT - more than a hiking trip...journey to physical, mental and spiritual health
AT corridor - MASSIVE legal and political effort to protect the trail from urban encroachment, trail changes every year due to reroutes, multi vs. single use trails, private property
What goes into physically making the AT maybe leading into trail maintenance projects (Eagle projects in coordination with local trail maintainance crews)
Resupply and logistics: Flexible itinerary - go with the flow mentality, sources of information to plan, "General delivery: Hold for AT-hiker", bounce boxes, dehydrated food, nero vs. zero days, hitch to town
Tie the AT into endless opportunities for skill awards and merit badges
Leave No Trace is a FUNDAMENTAL BSA mantra. So are lead by example... and no one is done until the TEAM is done
Best practices: AT skills and lessons last a lifetime - they are also a responsibility: backwoods safety, campfire safety (how many fires out West?), making sure you have enough water, first aid (sprained ankle miles from help - what do you do?), hypothermia - "cotton kills", how to read maps
Question for the next generation: How much of your life do you actually experience without electric stuff? The woods are a great place to escape from information bombardment, gain confidence and opportunities to give back to others. When I was in high school, my friends and I camped - the fun we had was ridiculous - but we knew how to be comfortable and safe and watch over the poeple who didn't know.
Hope your lecture is a complete success!
Happy hiking!
TTF
We have a local Scout Shop that sells general outdoors gear like backpacks and tents and kayaks and blue foam pads and knives and clothing in addition to Scout specific gear like badges and cub car kits. They do a pretty good job on carrying non-cotton clothing, but their backpacks are too heavy.
I am somewhat surprised they is no standardized backpack and rain gear and shelter system for Scouts. I think at least on the troop level this could be standardized somewhat, and still be cheap and affordable yet light and higly functional.
Gear I would suggest for standardization, at least at the troop level:
Wind/Light Rain Gear - Some lightweight nylon wind/rain jacket and wind/rain pants, different sizes but the same colour for the entire troop.
Scout backpack - 2 sizes. Something 2 pounds for scouts, 1 pound for cubs.
Shelter/Heavy Rain Gear - Rain Poncho/Tarp and Blue Foam Pads. Commercial size for Scouts. Smaller or cut down size for cubs. Pitch 2 together to make a hootchie/pup tent? Have them make their own hiking staffs for a pole at each end.
Sleeping Bags - not so critical to standardize, or enforce, but something standard for this and other gear should be made available and encouraged unless they have something already.
Big Tents - Not really neccessary in my opinion, except winter maybe, but this wouldn't be personal kit.
Doesn't have to be expensive, but it should be functional and standardized, at least at the troop level. There are many good reasons for this, like morale and all that, but mostly its just alot easier to keep everyone safe and organized train them how to do stuff if they all have the same kit.
skinewmexico
10-23-2008, 17:17
BSA used to sell standardized gear, and it was heavy and expensive.
Cookerhiker
10-23-2008, 17:28
Lots of good advice for you. I echo most of it and want to follow onto one of Time-to-Fly's points re. trail maintanance. I hope the Scouts can understand to not take the Trail's presence for granted; its existence depends on a continuous stream of volunteers, whether it's scouting and monitoring corridors, major trail construction, or periodic maintenance in trimming, moving blowdowns etc. It's all part of good citizenship for trail users to give back in any ways they can.
Homer&Marje
10-23-2008, 17:30
Have nothing but respect for the Scouting community, they do great things. My brother made it all the way to eagle scout, I started playing football and dropped scouts early.
Ran into a scout leader in New Hampshire that was quite rude however. Showed up at a shelter designed for 8 people, there was kids running around everywhere and I asked how many there were, one kid said about 15. Knowing the shelter was designed for 8 I looked for the scout leader, I found him out back reprimanding some kids for running up a hill behind the shelter area. I simply asked him how many people he had and he yelled back "Theres 15 scouts plus chaperons there is no more room" I turned around and walked away, found a wonderful campsite that would have suited the scouts much better but found the rest of my stay enjoyable none the less. No doubt who was walking by in the morning for 5 minutes of constant noise. You guessed it.
All in all though the scouts is a great organization. Some better trail ethics has been suggested already, and should be adhered too.
TJ aka Teej
10-23-2008, 19:24
I'm leading a talk or discussion on the AT on 19 November 2008 for Adult Leaders of a youth group (Boy Scouts) in Ulster County, NY. Whould like to hear from this group on what topics should be discussed.
You might consider mentioning that a significant portion of the AT community would be unwelcome in Scouting. I hope that doesn't scare them off.
BSA used to sell standardized gear, and it was heavy and expensive.Kind of like military gear I suppose. Too bureaucratic to change quickly with the times, most of the time anyways.
I still think they should standardize gear at least at the local troop level, at least for stuff like wind breakers and wool sweaters and watch caps and maybe poncho/tarp shelters and blue foam pads. I remember pup tents back in the sixties, which I think were ponchos also. That was before I was old enough. When I did cubs and scouts it was big army surplus tents. When I did my basic military training in the eighties we slept in those hootchies and air mattresses, which were made of heavy ground tarps rather than light rain poncho/tarps. We didn't lug them around though. We humped two of pretty much everything else but the hootchies went by truck. Heavy suckers. I found one left behind after the truck left and they made me carry it, the bastards. LOL. Wasn't even mine, not that that mattered.
Still though, standardization is the key to keeping something like a scout troop well organized, and safe. Maybe not every last detail, but the main items and most visible stuff. Could be very cheap also, and light, so it would save everyone from wasting money on all the overweight or overpriced crap, like Far West Jackets and Kelty Packs and most of the Tents out there.
Do any troops standardize on rain gear and shelters and stuff like that?
Jack Tarlin
10-23-2008, 19:59
What a great thread! Thanx to JAK, Time 2 Fly, and some other folks for some very wise comments.
A few quick thoughts on what to share with Scout leaders:
*Absolutely try and cut down on group size. On the A.T. groups hiking together should limit themselves to 10 people.
*Likewise, large groups should avoid camping together unless it's at a group
site designed to accomodate large parties. Large groups should NEVER camp
in or near a shelter as they tend to take over and completely dominate the site, to the detriment of other folks trying to have a quiet peaceful night.
*Large groups, especially large groups of adolescents, are frequently unaware of how noisy they are. Scouts need to be quieter, both while hiking, and also, when in camp. When the sun goes down, it's time to be REALLY quiet.
*LNT princples need to be recognized and followed, especially when it comes to respect for water sources, keeping campfires reasonable, packing out ALL
trash, etc.
*Scout groups frequently mis-judge time and travel distances. If groups ever arrive at a campsite after dusk or after dark, they really need to make an attempt to be as little disruptive as possible, or better yet, they should plan their days accordingly. Also, having a "fallback" campsite in mind isn't a bad idea either.
*Most important of all, scouts need to be told (and reminded) that the A.T. is a really popular trail, and that they'll be sharing the Trail and all Trail facilities with lots of other folks, and should behave accordingly.
Have nothing but respect for the Scouting community, they do great things. My brother made it all the way to eagle scout, I started playing football and dropped scouts early.
Ran into a scout leader in New Hampshire that was quite rude however. Showed up at a shelter designed for 8 people, there was kids running around everywhere and I asked how many there were, one kid said about 15. Knowing the shelter was designed for 8 I looked for the scout leader, I found him out back reprimanding some kids for running up a hill behind the shelter area. I simply asked him how many people he had and he yelled back "Theres 15 scouts plus chaperons there is no more room" I turned around and walked away, found a wonderful campsite that would have suited the scouts much better but found the rest of my stay enjoyable none the less. No doubt who was walking by in the morning for 5 minutes of constant noise. You guessed it.
All in all though the scouts is a great organization. Some better trail ethics has been suggested already, and should be adhered too.I think for something like a scout troop the key to trail ethics is, like anything else, organization. If they are not organized like a scout troop should be, they are not going to behave like a scout troop should, and you can throw all the trail ethics out the window.
It all depends on who they have running the show. Now matter how big the troop is or how many wing nut parents you have helping out, you have the right man in charge and everything falls in place in a real hurry. It only takes one good Marine, or maybe a couple of something near enough. Without that, well, the kids deserve better is what I'm saying.
I was damned lucky growing up. Had this guy named Roger Aske. Had him in cub scouts and also at our sailing squadron. He had his **** together. I don't think he was quite old enough to have serverd in WWII but he was an marine insurance salesman that had served in the British Merchant Marine, and probable had some scout training as a kid, plus the british school system, old school. So I'm not saying you have to have someone that served in WWII or Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan. A damned good coach or school teacher will do, but they have to have their **** together, which usually means some military training and combat back in their pedigree some place, directly or indirectly.
Not saying we have to have wars to get our **** together, but it does help.
Ghosthiker
10-23-2008, 20:15
Also, you might encourage them, when they split into smaller groups, to plan the groups according to the speed and capabilities of the hikers. Slower hikers can be very discouraging to faster hikers. They can also plan different activities for the different groups so that the faster groups have more time consuming activities, so they don't get too far ahead.
Still though, standardization is the key to keeping something like a scout troop well organized, and safe. Maybe not every last detail, but the main items and most visible stuff. Could be very cheap also, and light, so it would save everyone from wasting money on all the overweight or overpriced crap, like Far West Jackets and Kelty Packs and most of the Tents out there.
Do any troops standardize on rain gear and shelters and stuff like that?
I am the main goto person for what gear our troop needs. Packs are difficult because the younger boys are small and their aren't many choices. Tents we standardized on Eureka Timberline only because parts are easy to come by and we always seem to need parts. The rest is old school where many think standard mess kits, hatchets, dutch ovens, etc. are the way to go. And, according to the experienced adults when we actually backpack, backpacker pantry is the way to go. :rolleyes:
I have worked with the new boys to get lighter personal gear, while trying to keep the new troop gear reasonable. All said and done, I have managed to get the boys hiking with no more than 22 pound loads for two nights, edible food included. :)
Homer&Marje
10-23-2008, 20:30
Common Sense goes a long way to having your **** together. In my, Humble, opinion.
I think for something like a scout troop the key to trail ethics is, like anything else, organization. If they are not organized like a scout troop should be, they are not going to behave like a scout troop should, and you can throw all the trail ethics out the window.
It all depends on who they have running the show. Now matter how big the troop is or how many wing nut parents you have helping out, you have the right man in charge and everything falls in place in a real hurry. It only takes one good Marine, or maybe a couple of something near enough. Without that, well, the kids deserve better is what I'm saying.
I was damned lucky growing up. Had this guy named Roger Aske. Had him in cub scouts and also at our sailing squadron. He had his **** together. I don't think he was quite old enough to have serverd in WWII but he was an marine insurance salesman that had served in the British Merchant Marine, and probable had some scout training as a kid, plus the british school system, old school. So I'm not saying you have to have someone that served in WWII or Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan. A damned good coach or school teacher will do, but they have to have their **** together, which usually means some military training and combat back in their pedigree some place, directly or indirectly.
Not saying we have to have wars to get our **** together, but it does help.
Also, you might encourage them, when they split into smaller groups, to plan the groups according to the speed and capabilities of the hikers. Slower hikers can be very discouraging to faster hikers. They can also plan different activities for the different groups so that the faster groups have more time consuming activities, so they don't get too far ahead.
That works if you aren't the only person who knows how to find your way down the trail. :) I'm sorry, but we hike in a group of 20, give or take. I have come across larger groups and see no harm in them passing. In my experience, many of the younger boys can out-hike the older gaming potato heads. We take several long breaks and keep everyone together. It works fine for us.
The problem is camping, so I usually take the troop to group youth sites off the trail. In the spring, we may just do a section where the only group sites are on the trail and it will not be during the thru-hiker scene in CT, so I see no harm. And if a group takes over a lean-to (and it will not be my troop), I say first come, first served.
Disagree if you will, there is room for all on the AT. :cool:
Thanks Tin Man. That was an excellent summary of what might be done practically.
Homer&Marje. LOL. Well common sense has never been my long suite, and I am not much good and keeping my crap together either. When I do finally get it together I usually forget where I left it. However, I have learned enough from some others to know what is achievable when you do have it together, and what can happen when you don't. I hike solo mostly, or with my daughter or very small groups, so I can't really do that much harm. LOL. To be honest I really don't think I could run a sizeable scout troop even if they let me, but I do have enough experience to know that, and to know the difference between someone running it well and someone running it around in circles. I would probably be a good adult leader observer though, for one of the smaller groups. Unfortunatelty it doesn't make much difference because our local scout and guide troops don't do much outdoors. Maybe once or twice a year at most. It should be a monthly thing in my opinion. That's what I do with my daughter. Most kids today just don't get out into the woods enough, even here with woods all around us. Now its all about driving them to gymnasiums, pools, and indoor hockey rinks. Its really quite sad.
I think its really quite a small thing if there is a scout troop out there screwing up.
At least they are out there, where they might actually learn something.
Another great post Tin Man. Thanks.
I can see how groups of 20 might be most practical, if not ideal. That might still be 3 groups of six, but you might still have to keep them close together because of practical limits in terms of leadership and communications. I agree that people need to be more accomodating and understanding of scout troops. There are only so many willing and able adult volunteers, and it should be enough for a scout troop to be out there trying to get their crap in order. Actually having their crap together is the goal, and a real blessing for us all once if ever achieved, but not the only path to getting there.
Another great post Tin Man. Thanks.
I can see how groups of 20 might be most practical, if not ideal. That might still be 3 groups of six, but you might still have to keep them close together because of practical limits in terms of leadership and communications. I agree that people need to be more accomodating and understanding of scout troops. There are only so many willing and able adult volunteers, and it should be enough for a scout troop to be out there trying to get their crap in order. Actually having their crap together is the goal, and a real blessing for us all once if ever achieved, but not the only path to getting there.
Thanks JAK. I would like to add that our young troop has come a long way in the past year. They could hardly set up a tent, prepare a meal or tie a knot a year ago. Camping more than 50 feet from the car was a near impossibility. A year later, we are hiking, backpacking, white water rafting, etc. And the boys do the work themselves without being told. Hopefully, in another year these boys will be even more independent, so they can camp in patrols and be even less dependent on the adults, who, by the way, can be harder to train than the boys. ;)
Bulldawg
10-23-2008, 21:17
Just got back from my Tiger Cub meeting. I have the best group of 6 and 7 year olds a man can ask for. Very well behaved, very excited about learning scouting, and very involved parents. We did an outdoor scavenger hunt, made some leaf pressings, and I had 4 boys earn their Bobcat badge tonight, which we will give out next week at the Pack Meeting. And this is only the fourth den meeting.
Jack Tarlin
10-23-2008, 21:19
Any group (Scout; school; camp; church; etc.) contemplating spending time on the A.T. would do well to contact the ATC or check out their website (www.appalachiantrail.org) where they'll discover very clear guidelines and suggestions for hikers travelling in groups.
One of the things the ATC makes crystal clear is that groups of 20 on the A.T. are neither "practical" nor "ideal".
Groups this large are noisy, intrusive, disruptful, disturbing to others, and have the potential to damage the Trail, overtax Trail facilities, and degrade campsites, water sources, and other locations. Anyone that thinks that groups of this size are appropriate for the A.T. or thinks that groups this size are, in any way, "ideal", hasn't spent much time on the A.T.
Any group (Scout; school; camp; church; etc.) contemplating spending time on the A.T. would do well to contact the ATC or check out their website (www.appalachiantrail.org) where they'll discover very clear guidelines and suggestions for hikers travelling in groups.
One of the things the ATC makes crystal clear is that groups of 20 on the A.T. are neither "practical" nor "ideal".
Groups this large are noisy, intrusive, disruptful, disturbing to others, and have the potential to damage the Trail, overtax Trail facilities, and degrade campsites, water sources, and other locations. Anyone that thinks that groups of this size are appropriate for the A.T. or thinks that groups this size are, in any way, "ideal", hasn't spent much time on the A.T.
Horse hockey. :)
Thanks JAK. I would like to add that our young troop has come a long way in the past year. They could hardly set up a tent, prepare a meal or tie a knot a year ago. Camping more than 50 feet from the car was a near impossibility. A year later, we are hiking, backpacking, white water rafting, etc. And the boys do the work themselves without being told. Hopefully, in another year these boys will be even more independent, so they can camp in patrols and be even less dependent on the adults, who, by the way, can be harder to train than the boys. ;)Way cool Tin Man.
Sounds like those boys stand a chance of growing up to do great things, like saving the world from destruction, or maybe even running a small scout troop. ;)
Bulldawg
10-23-2008, 21:34
I gotta think that if the boys are acting respectful of both the trail and others on the trail, I don't care how many there are. I myself have never seen a group larger than 8 or 10. I did see one troop back in the summer that had put 3 or 4 miles separation between two patrols with 8 or 9 boys in each of them. I met one group at Miller Gap and the other at Slaughter Gap. Same troop, different patrols.
Just got back from my Tiger Cub meeting. I have the best group of 6 and 7 year olds a man can ask for. Very well behaved, very excited about learning scouting, and very involved parents. We did an outdoor scavenger hunt, made some leaf pressings, and I had 4 boys earn their Bobcat badge tonight, which we will give out next week at the Pack Meeting. And this is only the fourth den meeting.That sounds like alot of fun, and a very fun age. My troop currently consists of 1 adult and 1 youngster, and she is 9 now, but she started very young and occassionally we get together with another small troop of 1 adult and 1 or 2 youngsters. When they do they call themselves the Pixie Chicks. My daughter has recently joined a Girl Guide troop. I'm not invited, but that's ok I guess. This past Monday night she brought home a bath spa kit. Oh well, nothing another trip to the woods won't fix. :)
Jack Tarlin
10-23-2008, 21:41
Actually, TM, it's not horse hockey at all.
Larger groups inevitably have a greater impact on the places they are staying: They require more space, their campsites are larger, their fires tend to be oversized and require more wood. There is a much greater chance of water sources being dis-respected, of human waste being improperly dealt with, of garbage and litter being left. Larger groups also create much more noise, are more disruptful to other folks, to animals, etc. This is especially true when it comes to groups of adolescents.
Large groups also inevitably affect Trail facilities: For example, if groups of 20-25 people stayed at the same campsite a dozen times in the course of a year, their "contribution" to the outhouse would equal the output of six people over a FIFTY day period. And what oversozed groups like this can do in areas where there are no sanitary facilities, like the Smokies, is indescribable.
In short, there is no doubt that large groups have larger potential impacts, and this ain't "horse hockey". It's the simple truth. Sorry if it troubles you.
Jack, For one thing, simple truths are not as simple as you or I say and I am not troubled at all. I simply know the scout troops around CT and MA have significantly less impact than say the spring thru-hiker pledge class in GA has every spring. And scouts are probably more well behaved and mindful of their outdoor manners than the newbie thrus - I know my troop is and from what I have seen of other troops, most are pretty respectful of the outdoors.
Jack Tarlin
10-23-2008, 22:10
Comparing one over-sized group to another over-sized group doesn't alter the simple fact that large groups travelling together has a greater impact than does smaller groups. Nobody questions that thru-hikers in Georgia and North Carolina also have impacts. But they don't hike in groups of 20 or 25 all together, and when they tent, they tend to tent by themselves occupying tentsites that are roughly 6 feet by 4 feet. This cannot be said of groups of 20 or more.
Big groups travelling together inevitably have more impact on the areas they pass thru and the areas they camp in. I really don't see how anyone could dispute this. And the way to minimize this impact is to decrease the size of the group. It's not that difficult a concept.
Jack, In theory you have a good point. But have you actually hiked in CT, MA, VT or the Whites lately? Many large groups come through on a regular basis. All the campsites have come back from wide, barren stretches of earth to well vegetated and pleasant to stay in campsites. Why? Management and respect by those who come through. Sure, smaller groups may have less impact, but what is the difference if three groups of 10 come in versus one group of 30 versus ten groups of 3? None. I have witnessed all of this in CT, MA and the Whites and have seen less impact, not more, over the past few years. Can you say the same about GA and NC? I think not.
Jack Tarlin
10-23-2008, 22:42
Um, actually I hiked in NH today and Vermont a few days ago, so yeah, I've hiked recently. Thanks for asking.
And this debate, if you want to call it that, is tiresome. Nobody is denying or questioning the impact of thru-hikers on the Trail or on Trail facilities in GA and NC. But this doesn't alter the simple fact that big groups have a bigger impact, TM. They make noise. They disturb other people. They frighten away wildlife. They build big fires, they fill up outhouses, and despite what you say, they are NOT always well led or well guided, and I've seen Scout groups do some really scary things in springs and brooks.
Comparing large scouting groups with large groups of thru-hikers does not alter the very simple truth that great big groups have a greater impact, and have the potential to do a lot more damage than smaller groups.
I wouldn't want to camp near a shelter where 25 other thru-hikers were staying.
And I wouldn't want to be around 25 teenagers, either.
Smaller groups work better for everyone.
I can't understand why this concept is so difficult for some people to grasp.
I am not totally disagreeing with you Jack. I simply stated that large groups that are managed and respectful have less impact than the newbie thru-hiker crowd. I also stated that large groups can be managed. Just look around where you have hiked recently in NH and VT and you can see the recovery that has taken place. This is not due to fewer people or groups hiking the trail. The AT has simply been managed better in the north woods than the south. Simple.
And I agree, who wants to camp around a bunch of teenagers or newbie thru-hikers or kids out on college week? :) Oops, well, I for one prefer my scout camping with my sons over staying at home. The pleasure is in watching the kids grow and enjoying the great outdoors rather than pontificating over non-issues on an internet forum. :)
Jack Tarlin
10-23-2008, 23:00
I submit to you that in many cases, areas have "recovered" because of the educational efforts directed towards groups (like college freshman orientation trips).
Among other things, most of these groups now make a conscientious effort to limit the size of their parties.
And THAT'S one of the reasons some of the areas up north are looking better.
bri... I'm glad you posted.... you stated the Backpacking MB is excellent which I'm sure is. I just know when I speak with scouts and their leaders on the trail there seems to be a strong emphasis of being prepared which is a great premise in an of itself. That said, though I wonder if the cultural anchor of being prepared translates into these troops bring alot more gear than is necessary? Just a thought......
I think being over-prepared on a trek isn't limited to Scouts, ;) probably common to many first-timers...? Last time our Troop hit the trail (1st time on the AT for most) many of the Scouts were carrying too much unnecessary gear. Next time out (two weeks) we'll be doing a pack-shakedown the day before we leave to help reduce their loads.
The college freshmen and sophomore groups were numerous in the Whites the last week of August. Between the education efforts and roped off areas, the campsites were looking pretty good. Stealth sites were still pretty obvious, but even these seem to have been managed and respected more so now than in the past.
I think they need to work on educating the secondary prep school crowd though. I ran into a few of those groups last year that were larger and did not appear to be as well trained as the college groups I saw.
I think being over-prepared on a trek isn't limited to Scouts, ;) probably common to many first-timers...? Last time our Troop hit the trail (1st time on the AT for most) many of the Scouts were carrying too much unnecessary gear. Next time out (two weeks) we'll be doing a pack-shakedown the day before we leave to help reduce their loads.
Suggestion: bring a scale to the pack-shakedown and make sure the younger/smaller boys have less than 20 pounds on their backs and the older boys no more than 25 pounds. For a two night trip these weight limits works very well at weeding out extraneous junk.
Homer&Marje
10-24-2008, 07:28
I stayed with another boy scout group back in July at 13 Falls Tentsite. They had just done a 13 mile day including the Bonds and all were pretty whipped from the day. They were older, 15-16 vs 11-12 year olds, that I had run into last month and I think that had a lot to do with being a little more well behaved. It also largely, as Jak has said, to do with the two incredible scout leaders they had. I ended up talking to those guys in the morning for about an hour around breakfast. They loved the alky stoves and thought it would be a good project for the kids to learn practicality and safety at the same time. But with no direction for the kids, and a calm sense about things their whole group was packed up and ready to go when they were. That speaks a lot for their organization and the control over the group.
Christus Cowboy
10-24-2008, 10:56
I think being over-prepared on a trek isn't limited to Scouts, ;) probably common to many first-timers...? Last time our Troop hit the trail (1st time on the AT for most) many of the Scouts were carrying too much unnecessary gear. Next time out (two weeks) we'll be doing a pack-shakedown the day before we leave to help reduce their loads.
Point well made bri... in addition to heavily burdened boy scouts I have also seen my share of heavy backpacks on newbie hikers as well. In fact, I would say someone could have made that assumption with me 5 years ago as well.... Of course increasing age often times has a way of making you reassess the necessities of life on the trail.
Boy scouts and school groups should be permitted to hike in somewhat larger groups.
For one thing, they are lighter, but that's really not the point. Point is they are children.
As they get older and more experienced they should be expected and encouraged to hike in smaller groups, but they certainly should not in any way be discouraged from hiking. If they happen to get it wrong, then they should learn to get it right, but they have more right to be on the trail than anyone in my opinion. They haven't screwed the world much yet as the rest of us, and they are young enough that there might be more hope for them that they might finally get it right. Anyway, regardless of the odds, I have to put my money on them. OK, I have to give due respect to really old folks also, and all you folks that have actually stepped on the AT. I just don't get the bitching on boy scouts. Its just not cool.
NICKTHEGREEK
10-24-2008, 13:45
Is there a link. I am curious, and out of date. I do all my scouting now one on one with my daughter but would really like a good source of ideas. She has joined a Girl Guide troop but it seems like its all indoors stuff, so we are doing the outdoors stuff on our own. It would be nice if there were more like minded adults, but around here there just ain't. I have managed a few short dayhikes with another parent and their kids but that is about it.
I say one link awhile back that was right up my alley. It was more parent/child based and seemed to draw alot of inspiration from Native Americans. Anyone recall the name of it so I can google it? It was called pathfinders or something keepers or something like that. I always thought it would be great to merge the two ideas into one, involving parents more, and focusing more on the outdoors, but more kids also. I like the native american theme also, but think a little military organization theme is good also, and quite natural, and not all that different really. I guess I am mostly just thinking about a return to the way scouting used to be or was meant to be. It always had that urban/citizen component to it, which is excellent, but I think getting out into nature and the real outdoors has to be the real heart of it, in my opinion. Otherwise its just another thing to keep them occupied, and away from living a real life.
Not that I remember as my experience is about 7 years old. There were some guides for planning Philmont and high adventure treks and the Backpacking merit badge book. I don't know if they are on line now
Homer&Marje
10-24-2008, 18:22
What if you take the group of 20, knock it down to two groups of 6 and 1 group of 8 and make them walk 1/4 mile apart. so like, 8 minute intervals:D
I actually think this big of a party is not ideal. I personally....personally. Like no more than 2 people to hike with. Took Walker Skinny Ranger up to New Hampshire twice to get him away from his 13 year old ways of MySpace and Guitar Hero. But alone, I can teach him respect for the wilderness and why he doesn't need to live his life inside the TV and Computer. With large groups of kids, I would have to yell too much. And then they would just fear me and that's not what we need to instill as good values. I find it much easier to deal with smaller groups of children. Like 1.
I am not a parent, I just take care of a lot of my friends kids from time to time.
Bulldawg
10-24-2008, 18:32
What if you take the group of 20, knock it down to two groups of 6 and 1 group of 8 and make them walk 1/4 mile apart. so like, 8 minute intervals:D
I actually think this big of a party is not ideal. I personally....personally. Like no more than 2 people to hike with. Took Walker Skinny Ranger up to New Hampshire twice to get him away from his 13 year old ways of MySpace and Guitar Hero. But alone, I can teach him respect for the wilderness and why he doesn't need to live his life inside the TV and Computer. With large groups of kids, I would have to yell too much. And then they would just fear me and that's not what we need to instill as good values. I find it much easier to deal with smaller groups of children. Like 1.
I am not a parent, I just take care of a lot of my friends kids from time to time.
See Homer, you have to earn the kids respect in order to get that large of a group to pay attention and learn from you. I was giving a small demonstration of homemade alcohol stoves to some adult leaders at a camporee a few weeks back. This small gathering of 4 adult leaders soon turned into a group 25 kids and adults. Every single kid listened and watched intently as I showed them the stove, explained how it worked (the really cool scientific reasons), primed it, lit it, and and then cooked on it. I had each and every child's attention for at least 15 minutes. But see, they thought I was cool and what I was doing was cool. So it is very easy to keep a large group's attention, with the right subjects. On the same camporee on a hike when I found some bear scat, I had 10 boys very intimately interested in how we knew it was bear scat. Again, interesting things.
Oh and one more thing Homer, if you want to keep the attention of a large group, any large group, never, ever make them think they are stupid and you are the great and mighty smart intellectual. Talk on their level with words they can grasp easily. It is amazing how far that goes with a large group.
Homer&Marje
10-24-2008, 18:44
See Homer, you have to earn the kids respect in order to get that large of a group to pay attention and learn from you. I was giving a small demonstration of homemade alcohol stoves to some adult leaders at a camporee a few weeks back. This small gathering of 4 adult leaders soon turned into a group 25 kids and adults. Every single kid listened and watched intently as I showed them the stove, explained how it worked (the really cool scientific reasons), primed it, lit it, and and then cooked on it. I had each and every child's attention for at least 15 minutes. But see, they thought I was cool and what I was doing was cool. So it is very easy to keep a large group's attention, with the right subjects. On the same camporee on a hike when I found some bear scat, I had 10 boys very intimately interested in how we knew it was bear scat. Again, interesting things.
Oh and one more thing Homer, if you want to keep the attention of a large group, any large group, never, ever make them think they are stupid and you are the great and mighty smart intellectual. Talk on their level with words they can grasp easily. It is amazing how far that goes with a large group.
All very good Ideas, you missed my point though. I just don't like kids that much. Call it a character flaw if you may. I have had plenty of experience with children, my mother teaches special education preschool... all sorts of kids with Autism, Down Syndrome, Blind, Deaf, she had one kid with Face Blindness. I give you all the credit in the world, and when I take my brother in law I do the same things, teach him how to use the alcohol stove, teach him how to filter water, light fires, set up tents, what wood he can and can't gather. But I simply would not enjoy doing that for a large group. Life in moderation, in my book that includes kids. Not that I wouldn't be a good father, leader or whatever you needed. I just would rather not. When I am in the woods it's to relax. I live in a fast paced world and have enough stress, I just like to worry about my own well being right now, at this stage in my life. If you would have asked me 4 years ago if I wanted kids I would have told you that yes, I want 3 kids and would love to be their football coach, softball coach, scout master, whatever you wanted. Situations change.
What if you take the group of 20, knock it down to two groups of 6 and 1 group of 8 and make them walk 1/4 mile apart. so like, 8 minute intervals:D
I actually think this big of a party is not ideal. I personally....personally. Like no more than 2 people to hike with. Took Walker Skinny Ranger up to New Hampshire twice to get him away from his 13 year old ways of MySpace and Guitar Hero. But alone, I can teach him respect for the wilderness and why he doesn't need to live his life inside the TV and Computer. With large groups of kids, I would have to yell too much. And then they would just fear me and that's not what we need to instill as good values. I find it much easier to deal with smaller groups of children. Like 1.
I am not a parent, I just take care of a lot of my friends kids from time to time.I like the way you think. It's amazing what the outdoors can do for our kids and others kids if we can just get them out there, big groups, small groups, one on one, whatever. I prefer small groups also, but would love to see Margaret do something in a larger group also as long as it was well run and put the right emphasis on the outdoors and all that. That can be a bit of a tall order, but depending on the town you live if you check around you might be lucky. In some towns there might be an excellent scout or guides troop. In other towns it might be a church group or an archery group or and orienteering group or something like that. There is always the on on one or small groups like two families and stuff like that.
I wish more parents would just get it, but I know there are alot of stuff I don't get. I've get the importance of outdoors stuff for kids better than most, and chess for kids also, but I know there are other things in life I am out of touch on. For those things there are other parents I guess.
Homer&Marje
10-24-2008, 19:28
I like the way you think. It's amazing what the outdoors can do for our kids and others kids if we can just get them out there, big groups, small groups, one on one, whatever. I prefer small groups also, but would love to see Margaret do something in a larger group also as long as it was well run and put the right emphasis on the outdoors and all that. That can be a bit of a tall order, but depending on the town you live if you check around you might be lucky. In some towns there might be an excellent scout or guides troop. In other towns it might be a church group or an archery group or and orienteering group or something like that. There is always the on on one or small groups like two families and stuff like that.
I wish more parents would just get it, but I know there are alot of stuff I don't get. I've get the importance of outdoors stuff for kids better than most, and chess for kids also, but I know there are other things in life I am out of touch on. For those things there are other parents I guess.
Absolutely no offense to any one out there raising there children right, you should be praised.
Unfortunately as I see it, there is a few generations of kids coming up right now in the US that we will classify "Accidents" of nature. Maybe it's just the times we live in but there has been a giant leap in the amount of Unplanned births in the US over the last 25 years. Hell, I was one of them and I was welcomed and raised pretty well. However, as I see it children these days get less and less attention from their parents, and the parents Outsource wherever they can. I.E. be it Nannies, daycare, video games, TV and so many more examples. There is not that "Need" to raise your kids anymore in so many eyes. Kids don't learn from their parents as much as they used to. Parents expect their kids to learn necessary skills for life somewhere else.
Again, not trying to offend anyone. But as a responsible person, I would not bring a child into this world for 2 reasons. 1, Marje has a Genetic cancer...therefor a child would have 50% chance of also contracting the same disease. 2, because I see perfectly apt adults, with good jobs, good money, and time on their hands failing at raising children left and right. Now if I, little money, decent job, no time and full of stress had a child. How would that benefit anyone? You see, more and more people that are in my situation these days, are having kids, and they are not being raised in a good environment. Cash in a college fund is less important than a birthday card to your kid. Believe me.
I here you. I try and do what I can where I think its needed, and don't depend too much on schools and afters school programs and such, but I also have this growing suspicion that I also am missing something somewhere else. So as I see it schools and afterschool programs and other parents are not there as a substitute for my parenting skills, but it is good that they are they in case I miss something obvious to them, and foriegn to me.
Still though, somethings are just plain wrong. Way to much video game and internet music vieo and age compression clothing and mass marketing crap. Hard to compete with all that bandwidth and when so many kids are bouncing it all off each other. That's why I feel I have to take my daughter off on one on one dayhikes and overnights as often as I can. Once we are out there, and she calms down a bit and realizes going to be just her and me and nature for a few hour or a few days she turn into one heck of a hiking buddy, and a sponge for real learning. Nature has alot of bandwidth. Nature is on our side.
IdahoDavid
10-26-2008, 16:11
I have a bout 30 years of experience with Scouting boy and man. Troop behavioir problems come down to two things bad adult leadership and failure to use the boy-led patrol system. Certain charter organizations, particularly certain churches, draft adult leaders in to the program based on politics and dogma rather than the adults' skills teaching outdoor ethics and living and their ability to deal with effectively and honestly with boys and young men. The national BSA leadership is more concerned with its financial survival qnd enforcement of policies and regulations than they are providing life lessons from outdoor recreation to ever change this situation. The camping equipment sold by BSA will always be overpriced and overweight. BSA is a program that has drifted too far from its original intent. And yet they are surprised when they can't attract youth members and qualified adult volunteers.
I just returned last w/e from a Clingman's Dome - Spence Field hike with five Scouts and two Assistant SM's besides myself... We let the boys lead and navigate the whole way. We let them decide when to break and eat, under the guidance of the Senior Patrol Leader. These boys did fantastic, learning on the fly how to budget their time and energy. If I was going to teach a group of adults how to run an AT hike, in addition to all the concrete info listed above I would encourage them to let the Scouts run the hike as much as possible. Our troop puts heavy emphasis on letting the boys run the troop (the hike was their idea & they planned it) and the benefits to their leadership skills and self-confidence is amazing. The skills they learn while doing all this primarily themselves will carry on into their lives and careers. The only time an adult stepped in on our trip was when we saw them doing something ethically wrong, or forgetting something vital. The rest of the little stuff will stick in their minds, and they will do better next time as a result of personal experience. Micromanaging the hike is the worst thing adult leaders can do!
Wise Old Owl
10-26-2008, 23:08
Suggestion: bring a scale to the pack-shakedown and make sure the younger/smaller boys have less than 20 pounds on their backs and the older boys no more than 25 pounds. For a two night trip these weight limits works very well at weeding out extraneous junk.
I like that idea!
Might be alot of truth to what IdahoDavid said depending on where you live. All the more reason to do what you can though. If your local troop is a good one, support it, if it needs work and is worth saving, support it, if its beyond hope and won't change then find some other way and lead by example. I try and strike a balance between doing stuff with my daughter myself and looking around for programs that seem to be worth doing and well run. Yeah it can be hard sometime to get involved yourself if you want to get involved and do things differently, but you can always find some kids to help one way or another. I teach chess at the school my daughter goes to. There's alot of things about that school I would like to change but can't, but hey, where playing chess. I would my daughter to be able to do more stuff in the woods with her friends, through scouts or something like that, but its hard, but we still get out ourselves, and every now and then we talk one of her friends and one of their parents to go with us. Its an uphill battle against the rat race but hey, the woods are still there and nobody is stopping us.
I just returned last w/e from a Clingman's Dome - Spence Field hike with five Scouts and two Assistant SM's besides myself... We let the boys lead and navigate the whole way. We let them decide when to break and eat, under the guidance of the Senior Patrol Leader. These boys did fantastic, learning on the fly how to budget their time and energy. If I was going to teach a group of adults how to run an AT hike, in addition to all the concrete info listed above I would encourage them to let the Scouts run the hike as much as possible. Our troop puts heavy emphasis on letting the boys run the troop (the hike was their idea & they planned it) and the benefits to their leadership skills and self-confidence is amazing. The skills they learn while doing all this primarily themselves will carry on into their lives and careers. The only time an adult stepped in on our trip was when we saw them doing something ethically wrong, or forgetting something vital. The rest of the little stuff will stick in their minds, and they will do better next time as a result of personal experience. Micromanaging the hike is the worst thing adult leaders can do!
great advice for adult leaders. as our sm constantly reminds everyone - boy scouts differ from cub scouts in that the boys lead, not the adults.
teaching is different than leading and as hard as it is to let the boys lead any activity, it is the best learning tool. adults are there to teach and provide guidance, the boys are there to learn and develop as leaders.
Wise Old Owl
10-26-2008, 23:25
I have a bout 30 years of experience with Scouting boy and man. Troop behavioir problems come down to two things bad adult leadership and failure to use the boy-led patrol system. Certain charter organizations, particularly certain churches, draft adult leaders in to the program based on politics and dogma rather than the adults' skills teaching outdoor ethics and living and their ability to deal with effectively and honestly with boys and young men. The national BSA leadership is more concerned with its financial survival qnd enforcement of policies and regulations than they are providing life lessons from outdoor recreation to ever change this situation. The camping equipment sold by BSA will always be overpriced and overweight. BSA is a program that has drifted too far from its original intent. And yet they are surprised when they can't attract youth members and qualified adult volunteers.
I am not sure what motivated you to type this post, if you go back to the first post this doesn't answer the question. And I went back to see what was said that might have prompted you. If you search on Boy Scouts you will find a similar thread from last year where WB as a group argued about your sentiments in detail. I find you post a little misplaced here.
I just returned last w/e from a Clingman's Dome - Spence Field hike with five Scouts and two Assistant SM's besides myself... We let the boys lead and navigate the whole way. We let them decide when to break and eat, under the guidance of the Senior Patrol Leader. These boys did fantastic, learning on the fly how to budget their time and energy. If I was going to teach a group of adults how to run an AT hike, in addition to all the concrete info listed above I would encourage them to let the Scouts run the hike as much as possible. Our troop puts heavy emphasis on letting the boys run the troop (the hike was their idea & they planned it) and the benefits to their leadership skills and self-confidence is amazing. The skills they learn while doing all this primarily themselves will carry on into their lives and careers. The only time an adult stepped in on our trip was when we saw them doing something ethically wrong, or forgetting something vital. The rest of the little stuff will stick in their minds, and they will do better next time as a result of personal experience. Micromanaging the hike is the worst thing adult leaders can do!Sounds like a really well run troop. Can't build something like that from scratch but that is the end goal troops should be striving for.
Sounds like a really well run troop. Can't build something like that from scratch but that is the end goal troops should be striving for.
you can't reach the end goal when an adult is out in front
Yeah I would agree with that. Just saying once you have some excellent older scouts its alot easier to get the younger ones to learn from them. If you are starting from scratch, then it helps to have an adult that can bring some of the scouts up to speed quickly, the more promising or eager trouble makers perhaps, then step back again once those key individuals have been turned around. Anyhow that sort of thing is alot easier like you say if there is an adult that insists on staying in front and won't get out of the way.
Then what do you do? Start another troop? For example, what if you want to join a local troop and they insist on doing everything in a gym and not doing anything in the woods whatsoever? Well I suppose you could just join anyway, but still do your own hiking and stuff outside of scouts with your own kid and maybe another family. Then if there is some planned scouting weekend, like collecting money outside of liqour stores or something assinine like that and they want to know where you were, you just tell them you were to busy scouting. LOL
patience my friend... after a year the car camping is slowly being replaced with hiking... you just got to guide them along... and make them feel like it is what scoutig is all about
Alot easier once you get to know people I suppose.
I'm afraid my daughter will be all growed up by the. LOL
Christopher Robin
10-27-2008, 17:15
I tought outdoors training to BS. & GS. for years & weight is a big problem. I would ask an adult to bring to backpack full of the things that they would bring for a week-end. Then I would pack my pack also and take it w/me along with a small fish scales to weight both packs. It is a good visual lesson for the adults & one that is still used by many. PS. I think the other ideas are good also. Good Luck.
i would suggest trail edicate with them the kids are okay but the adults teach them alot of wrong things
zero day
11-24-2008, 15:05
I,m leading a talk or discussion on the AT on 19 November 2008 for Aldult Leaders of a youth group (Boy Scouts) in Ulster County, NY. Whould like to hear from this group on what topics should be discussed.
BT
I was a Scoutmaster for several years. The Boy Scouts have a wilderness use policy, of which many Scouters (adult leaders) are apparently unaware. The policy boils down to minimal impact, leave no trace camping. In other words, the entire troop of 30-40 boys and leaders does NOT need to hike together and take over a shelter or campsite. Down and dead wood only for fires...leave the bow saws at home. Be aware that other people are in the wilderness to enjoy solitude, peace and quiet. Gear talk is OK, but what they need to understand is the wilderness ethic.
Thank you for your comments & suggestions.
BT
Rockhound
11-25-2008, 10:32
LNT LNT LNT! In VA I was witness to a group of scouts breaking live branches off trees for their fire while the troop leaders sat idly by and watched. Also the issue of grafitti needs to be addressed. nearly every shelter I pass has a "troop #XXX" written somewhere, and I don't mean in the log books
jersey joe
11-25-2008, 11:12
I,m leading a talk or discussion on the AT on 19 November 2008 for Aldult Leaders of a youth group (Boy Scouts) in Ulster County, NY. Whould like to hear from this group on what topics should be discussed.
BT
How did the discussion go bt02?
It went great. Had a thru hiker of 2009.
Lone Wolf
11-25-2008, 17:22
it's only 2008 :-?
SunnyWalker
11-25-2008, 23:24
I am 55 years old, and still rememer Mr. Johnson, my first Scoutmaster who taught me and took me in as a Tenderfoot. Scouting was the greatest thing of my younger years. Thanks BSA! I would make the trip fun. I would teach conservation and a fun skill like maybe map and compass if the terrain is not to closed in. Maybe bring a homemade alcohol stove and demonstrate it. Then bring out (prepared beforehand) enough coke cans and tools for the boys to make their own. I guess you'd have to bring a lot of alcohol too. maybe do this before?!? As far as behavior-well they ARE boys. I am not excusing any "misbehavior" on the trail but when I meet Scouts I just try to be encouraging. They are going to make mistakes and all. Let them learn, smile, be an example, welcome them to the trail. Its not my trail or their trail its our trail. Have a great bonfire or something like that away from the shelter if you can one evening and invite any AT thru Hikers or hikers as guests.
Rain Man
11-26-2008, 13:29
I am 55 years old, and still rememer Mr. Johnson, my first Scoutmaster ... I am not excusing any "misbehavior" on the trail but when I meet Scouts I just try to be encouraging. They are going to make mistakes and all. Let them learn, smile, be an example, welcome them to the trail. Its not my trail or their trail its our trail. Have a great bonfire or something like that away from the shelter if you can one evening and invite any AT thru Hikers or hikers as guests.
I was mostly with you up to the "bonfire" suggestion. Bonfires are huge fires, way out of balance with any true need. They fall under the heading of "conspicuous consumption." Not good Scout nor trail ethics. Maybe that's not what you actually meant, though?
A small campfire is magical, however, in the right setting. I'm betting that's what you had in mind. Just my two cents.
I had the privilege of participating in an Eagle Scout award ceremony at my church on Sunday. I was the Scout's past Sunday School teacher and got to do the invocation. :) His dad and brother are both Eagle Scouts, too.
Rain:sunMan
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SunnyWalker
11-26-2008, 22:40
Yeah, Rain Man, Sorry, got carried away there with the memories and all :-). Sure, a small campfire would be great. I'd try to find a spot already used. But return in the a.m. and clean it up.
Plodderman
11-30-2008, 18:14
Encourage, encourage, encourage. Try to make it as fun as possible to keep them coming
Bare Bear
11-30-2008, 18:48
No matter what the group they like photos and stuff they can paly with. I set out all my gear, tent set up, etc. I put out a couple boards with 8X10 photos and some regular scrap books. Spend 1/4 of your time limit talking then take questions and let them play with the 'stuff'.