View Full Version : Your favorite Insulating Jacket
Live the Journey
10-23-2008, 12:33
I've been trying to find a good insulating piece for winter camping and my 2009 NOBO attempt, and I'm just having a hard time...As a forum with MANY opinions, You all are a good group to ask!
Please name your favorite insulating jacket, fill type, weight and cost...and how you personally feel about it's overall performance.
montbell ul down inner jacket. 6.3 oz. listed on montbell for $145. found it on backcountry for a little over $100. worth every penny.
Tipi Walter
10-23-2008, 12:44
My favorite insulating jacket is the one I don't have yet. Something for deep cold basecamping, something like the Feathered Friends Icefall parka.
http://www.featheredfriends.com/Picasso/Garments/Exp/Icefall.html
Or check out these beauties:
http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/index.php?cPath=27_68
Expensive as heck but fun to fantasize . . .
My favorite is the WM flight jacket. 900+ fill, 11oz. It's a little expensive at $240.00.
But, I wouldn't trade it ounce to ounce for a different jacket. The key is to find it on sale. Like this weekend, Little River Trading Company in Maryville, TN is having a 20%
off sale.
My wife got one of those 900 WM Flight Jackets really cheap at Winners, like under $100. It is very nice, but doesn't fit into my system. Its redundant with what I already carry for cold wet winter conditions and can't be so easily protected or dried with fire. If I spend over $100 on anything for the woods it would be a down sleeping back or a hand knit medium/heavy wool sweater or wool poncho, but that's just me.
It would be awesome to wear on a day hike though.
Tipi Walter
10-23-2008, 13:31
Didn't I see you up at the Hangover in the winter at 7 degrees wearing a pair of fancy down pants?? Does Little River have a dumpster where they put their out-of-date discarded down jackets? ha ha ha.
Didn't I see you up at the Hangover in the winter at 7 degrees wearing a pair of fancy down pants?? Does Little River have a dumpster where they put their out-of-date discarded down jackets? ha ha ha.
Yea, that was me. In fact you have a few pictures of myself and Jody from that trip. Boy, I wish they had a dump bin of down products. I just can't get enough down it seems.
When are you planning your next trip?
2009ThruHiker
10-23-2008, 15:34
montbell ul down inner jacket. 6.3 oz. listed on montbell for $145. found it on backcountry for a little over $100. worth every penny.
Ditto. Love this thing. Haven't tried it out in extreme cold...but 28 and frosty with wind and it kept me toasty!
bigcranky
10-23-2008, 18:36
Patagonia Micropuff pullover, 12 ounces in size Large, warm in to the 20's. Patagonia down hoody, 16 ounces, nice big pockets, hood, warm into the 20's. Montbell UL down inner vest, 4.4 ounces, surprisingly warm under a windshirt, certainly comfortable with the right base layer down to around 40.
Winter brings out my old Sierra Designs down jacket, 24 ounces of warmmmmmm.
Tipi Walter
10-23-2008, 19:59
Yea, that was me. In fact you have a few pictures of myself and Jody from that trip. Boy, I wish they had a dump bin of down products. I just can't get enough down it seems.
When are you planning your next trip?
I pulled a short 4 day thing in early October and then a family crisis intervened but I should be out again soon enough. I definitely remember you and Jody up thar on the high ground, that was a particularly cold night and next morning. Loved it. I'll be praying for cold and praying for snow.
Hey, I plan on thru-hiking in March from Springer and I just bought a Marmot 3L Gortex jacket last night. Is that gonna be enough to make it through the weather at that time, or will I need something thicker?
Nicksaari
10-23-2008, 21:14
is there anything wrong with integrating a down vest underneath a med fleece w a light shell? i will of course be wearing some base layers and using the vest as a pillow in a stuff sack.
share some of your cold weather layering secrets
greentick
10-23-2008, 21:19
is there anything wrong with integrating a down vest underneath a med fleece w a light shell? i will of course be wearing some base layers and using the vest as a pillow in a stuff sack.
share some of your cold weather layering secrets
Under that much stuff may compress teh down too much. You could try the vest over the fleece, under the shell.
Jim Adams
10-23-2008, 22:13
TNF Nuptse, down, waaarrrmmmm! $199 but got my last one on sale at TNF Outlet in Freeport for $69.
geek
Bulldawg
10-23-2008, 22:26
How well does the Nuptse pack down and compress?
Tipi Walter
10-23-2008, 23:09
TNF Nuptse, down, waaarrrmmmm! $199 but got my last one on sale at TNF Outlet in Freeport for $69.
geek
How well does the Nuptse pack down and compress?
I've been using a Nupste for my winter outer layer for the last several dozen trips and found a nice little stuff sack for it(don't like the internal pocket-becomes-a-stuffsack). Packs into a slighter bigger liter size. I won't go back to North Face down products as they are underfilled with down and so you end up with more shell fabric than goose down. For true winter backpacking and long term camping, I'd go with something in high range quality: PHD products(turned on to me by kutenay), Feathered Friends, and maybe a few others.
Monkeywrench
10-24-2008, 07:37
I am spoiled and have both the Montbell UL Inner jacket and the WM Flight Jacket. The Montbell I carry all year for use on cool evenings instead of a fleece. I plan to couple that with the WM Flight jacket for the beginning and end of my thru next year.
Jim Adams
10-24-2008, 07:51
I've been using a Nupste for my winter outer layer for the last several dozen trips and found a nice little stuff sack for it(don't like the internal pocket-becomes-a-stuffsack). Packs into a slighter bigger liter size. I won't go back to North Face down products as they are underfilled with down and so you end up with more shell fabric than goose down. For true winter backpacking and long term camping, I'd go with something in high range quality: PHD products(turned on to me by kutenay), Feathered Friends, and maybe a few others.
The Nuptse doesn't pack as small as some others as TW noted ( stuffing in the pocket is a total hassle) but I've never had a problem with either one of mine being underfilled. Both are super puffy and make me look like the Michilen Man.
geek
Tipi Walter
10-24-2008, 08:15
The Nuptse doesn't pack as small as some others as TW noted ( stuffing in the pocket is a total hassle) but I've never had a problem with either one of mine being underfilled. Both are super puffy and make me look like the Michilen Man.
geek
My Michilen Man dreams are unfulfilled, at least with the Nupste. Check out the fairly recent fotogs. Maybe I got an off-year model. On the other hand, I got my GF a down NF bag, Blue Igloo??--and was first unimpressed by the scarce amount of down inside each baffle. On a winter trip she never did sleep warm at around 25 degrees. Sent it back, quickly.
Fotos:
Old Dog Falls, Upper Bald River Wilderness
Crowder Camp BMT Citico Wilderness
Bald River Gorge
I love the smell of wet wool in the morning. Smells like, sheep.
I love the smell of wet wool in the morning. Smells like, sheep.
hide the livestock!!!
montbell ul down inner jacket. 6.3 oz. listed on montbell for $145. found it on backcountry for a little over $100. worth every penny.
AAHHH yes...a little piece of heaven is what this jacket is. You just had to show it off didn't you?:D
One day I hope to acquire one.
hide the livestock!!!Only thing better that wet sheep wool, dirty wet sheep wool.
Bring on those dirty little sheeps.
Bulldawg
10-24-2008, 08:39
AAHHH yes...a little piece of heaven is what this jacket is. You just had to show it off didn't you?:D
One day I hope to acquire one.
If I could find one for $100, I'd order it right now!!
If I could find one for $100, I'd order it right now!!
http://www.gearzone.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=165-15701&click=5096
AAHHH yes...a little piece of heaven is what this jacket is. You just had to show it off didn't you?:D
One day I hope to acquire one.
heehee! it's my happy place when it's around freezing and the coyotes are circling! :eek:
Only thing better that wet sheep wool, dirty wet sheep wool.
Bring on those dirty little sheeps.
you're a dirty, dirty boy jak
bustedchucks
10-24-2008, 08:56
You might consider the EMS Glacier Jacket, 21.5 oz, 650 fill. Not the best, but they list for $99 and ususally go on sale in Feb. for $50. If you sign up for EMS email, they'll let you know. It works for me in the Northeast for when I stop on summits or in camp, and for $50, I've been happy enough.
Bulldawg
10-24-2008, 09:00
http://www.gearzone.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=165-15701&click=5096
Small only darling. Here you got me all excited and then I only got let down. Sort of like the first time I, no nevermind, I ai't gonna say it.
Small only darling. Here you got me all excited and then I only got let down. Yippee, I got one! Free shipping too.
Montbell has soo many down jackets.
How do you tell if one jacket would be warmer than another?
I have the Montbell Thermawrap Parka but I want a down jacket that's warmer.
My favorite for three season is my REI primaloft hooded jacket. Warm, compresses well, hood fits GREAT. No longer available.:mad: Not sure why it was discontinued. Similar but cheaper than a Thermawrap. Being Primaloft, this layer COULD be worn while hiking, but probably too warm 90% of the time.
For winter, I would probably add a good down vest. I'm betting this combination would suffice for most situations. Any colder than that will handle and I'd crawl into my bag. Of course we're assuming all the other gear, insulating bottom, long underwear, hats gloves, shell, etc.
REI jacket ------------ 13oz
Good down vest ---- 6oz
Total ---------------------19oz
Not bad weight and versatile, no huge additional expense.
I don't understand all of the science behind it, but the third post on this topic at BPL is extremely informative and very relevant to the relative warmth of various Mont-Bell Jackets.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/13697/index.html?skip_to_post=101205#101205
montbell ul down inner jacket. 6.3 oz. listed on montbell for $145. found it on backcountry for a little over $100. worth every penny.
I second this!
jaywalke
10-24-2008, 13:06
MEC Northern Lite pullover
I have the old style sans hood. Packs tiny, weighs 11 oz. in an XL. Primaloft insulation.
That Montbell looks nice. It's a little over $100 ($118), but here it is in larger sizes with free shipping.
http://www.prolitegear.com/pl_montbell_ul_down_inner_jacket.html
How much down can there be in a 8oz down vest or 12oz down jacket when you remove the shell weight? I just don't get it. Yeah my wife's WM 900 flight jacket feels really light and warm, but come on. Isn't 8oz of fleece or wool plus 4oz of shell just as warm as 4 oz of down and 8 oz of shell, and a heck of a lot more robust and versatile? Down doesn't make any really sense unless your into extreme cold environments when more down is needed.
How much down can there be in a 8oz down vest or 12oz down jacket when you remove the shell weight? I just don't get it. Yeah my wife's WM 900 flight jacket feels really light and warm, but come on. Isn't 8oz of fleece or wool plus 4oz of shell just as warm as 4 oz of down and 8 oz of shell, and a heck of a lot more robust and versatile? Down doesn't make any really sense unless your into extreme cold environments when more down is needed.
I have no problem with wool, have used it quite extensively, but it is heavy and does not compress well at all (same with fleece). I've read your method of wearing your wool 24/7, so it may work well for you without needing to compress, but I prefer to be able to pack my insulation away when not needed. It's all just personal preference and technique. A light down vest with wool knickers and a wool shirt on top of a poly pro shirt, all covered with a nylon wind layer has kept me reasonably warm to -12*. This is about as low as I go usually.
Jim Adams
10-24-2008, 14:50
My Michilen Man dreams are unfulfilled, at least with the Nupste. Check out the fairly recent fotogs. Maybe I got an off-year model. On the other hand, I got my GF a down NF bag, Blue Igloo??--and was first unimpressed by the scarce amount of down inside each baffle. On a winter trip she never did sleep warm at around 25 degrees. Sent it back, quickly.
Fotos:
Old Dog Falls, Upper Bald River Wilderness
Crowder Camp BMT Citico Wilderness
Bald River Gorge
TW,
I see what you mean! My Nuptse is super puffy, seems like twice as much down as the one in your photos. Maybe I just lucked out...both of mine are puffy and warm but also getting old. May look for a new one soon...has to work for +30* to -20* for hanging around camp...what brands do you suggest?
geek
montbell ul down inner jacket. 6.3 oz. listed on montbell for $145 worked well for me on my thru hike. If you are usually cold Western Mountianeering vapor jacket, 1 lb $290.00 850 down.
These 2 are great pieces of equipment.
I agree there is more than one way to skin a cat. Individual choices really depend on your total system and the most extreme conditions you might encounter, including cold, wet, wind, and fatigue, and individual preferences in terms of how you chose to remove and store layers for the more normal less than extreme conditions.
Bulldawg
10-24-2008, 21:38
OK, now you guys have me questioning the Montbell UL. I was looking at one more for around camp and possibly sleeping if it is really cold. Is it not really worth the money or what? Just how warm is it?
well, on the bw hike i put mine on over my warm layer when i got to camp bc it was hovering around freezing and i actually had to switch out for a thin layer to keep from sweating. you wouldn't have thunkit since it's so thin. but then, that's montbell for you - light and fast (sounds like some people i know)
I don't understand all of the science behind it, but the third post on this topic at BPL is extremely informative and very relevant to the relative warmth of various Mont-Bell Jackets.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/13697/index.html?skip_to_post=101205#101205
OK, now you guys have me questioning the Montbell UL. I was looking at one more for around camp and possibly sleeping if it is really cold. Is it not really worth the money or what? Just how warm is it?
BD,
The BPL article has a chart that compares the insulating values and the temperature equilibrium for the different MB jackets. The chart is insightful, but not entirely correct. Equilibrium is achieved when the environment equals your body temp. Jackets can only slow down the heat loss, not produce heat.
Having said that, I am comfortable in an inactive state in my MB UL Down Inner Parka into to upper 40s. I use a WM Vapor jacket for camp use in the 30s and lower.
The MB ULDIP is a great lightweight piece of gear to carry on hikes for warm up during breaks or after the hike. I cannot think of another jacket with a better warmth to weight ratio. It is definitely worth the $ to me.
Let me ask you a question; do you use the same sleeping bag year round, or do you use a "warmer" bag for winter? Different products for different applications. IOW, use the right tool for the job.
Tipi Walter
10-25-2008, 10:08
How much down can there be in a 8oz down vest or 12oz down jacket when you remove the shell weight? I just don't get it. Yeah my wife's WM 900 flight jacket feels really light and warm, but come on. Isn't 8oz of fleece or wool plus 4oz of shell just as warm as 4 oz of down and 8 oz of shell, and a heck of a lot more robust and versatile? Down doesn't make any really sense unless your into extreme cold environments when more down is needed.
I agree that an 8 oz down jacket is problematic, is it beefy enough to use for the basecamp outer layer?? I would not consider zero degrees to be extreme cold, and yet zero degrees at 5 or 6 thousand feet is cold, and you'll either be moving thru it w/o down, or in your down bag on the pad, or wearing your down vest/jacket while cooking, setting up camp and take down, and when just hanging out. Top end down garments are worth every ounce and like the down bag, offer that little bit of edge when conditions turn frigid. Love 'em. Use 'em.
It's all about fill weight, period. In sleeping bags, fill weight of around 35 ounces up to 40-48 delineates a subzero rating and so too with garments. There's probably a fill weight applicable to jackets, from 4 ozs to 16-25 ozs or more. I gotta do more research on this. Check out the fill weight on the Feathered Friends Rock and Ice parka and go down from there. Nupste fill weight?? No clue, probably mine is about 7 ounces, too low.
TW,
I see what you mean! My Nuptse is super puffy, seems like twice as much down as the one in your photos. Maybe I just lucked out...both of mine are puffy and warm but also getting old. May look for a new one soon...has to work for +30* to -20* for hanging around camp...what brands do you suggest?
geek
My love affair with North Face, which started in 1978 with the purchase of their old style A-frame Toulumne tent and top-of-the-line Ibex goose down bag, has paled in time as their quality seemingly decreases. In the old days, North Face started with their flagship namesake sleeping bag, called The North Face, a goose down wonder beyond my price range. The Ibex was one step below and good enough for NC winters and deep snow. Nowadays I wouldn't touch a NF down product after seeing what I've seen with a few of their products. Anyway, there's too many better alternatives.
LIhikers
10-25-2008, 10:32
I've been trying to find a good insulating piece for winter camping and my 2009 NOBO attempt, and I'm just having a hard time...As a forum with MANY opinions, You all are a good group to ask!
Please name your favorite insulating jacket, fill type, weight and cost...and how you personally feel about it's overall performance.
At the middle of last winter I accidentally ran into a clearance at a local EMS store. For $25 I got a nice jacket that has primaloft sport insulation. It packs down into a 4 litter stuff sack and keeps me pretty darn warm when it's on my back. I haven't used it in temps below about 25 yet but I think it'll probably be good to low 20s or high teens. It doesn't have a model name or number on it so I can't be any more specific.
I agree that an 8 oz down jacket is problematic, is it beefy enough to use for the basecamp outer layer?? I would not consider zero degrees to be extreme cold, and yet zero degrees at 5 or 6 thousand feet is cold, and you'll either be moving thru it w/o down, or in your down bag on the pad, or wearing your down vest/jacket while cooking, setting up camp and take down, and when just hanging out. Top end down garments are worth every ounce and like the down bag, offer that little bit of edge when conditions turn frigid. Love 'em. Use 'em.
It's all about fill weight, period. In sleeping bags, fill weight of around 35 ounces up to 40-48 delineates a subzero rating and so too with garments. There's probably a fill weight applicable to jackets, from 4 ozs to 16-25 ozs or more. I gotta do more research on this. Check out the fill weight on the Feathered Friends Rock and Ice parka and go down from there. Nupste fill weight?? No clue, probably mine is about 7 ounces, too low.
Interesting what you said about zero degrees at 5 or 6 thousand feet being cold.
I agree that there is zero degrees, and there is ZERO FREAKIN DEGREES! There are many things that separate a mild 0 deg F from a freakin 0 deg F.
Wind and exposure to wind obviously, but also stuff like radiation of heat to surrounding surfaces and open sky versus direct or even indirect sunlight. Then there is the worn down factor, like how long you've been out there, how much energy it took to get you there, what the night was like, what sort of shape you clothing and gear might be in after freezing rain the day before. You can get freezing rain 0 deg F too, in theory. Might not be rain for very long after it hits the ground, but long enough to do alot of damage to your hands and face and clothing and sleeping bag and send a wet chill into your bones before you manage to set up camp and dive into you bag for a long night or until it lets the frig up enough to start a fire.
Speaking of freezing rain and such, 0 deg C can be pretty freaking cold also, even if its not raining, and even below the treeline like in the northern woods or along the coast here. Something about the way the cold moisture is driven out of the air and into your clothes and right under you skin when the temperature drops quickly from say 40degF down through freezing to 20degF or colder. The upper wind, usually a cold air outbreak from the North, is usually below freezing, while the surface might still have a lot of water and wet snow that has to freeze first, so the surface temperature is kept right around 32F, but the wind is very gusty because upper air like to mix with surface air when the upper air is colder, so it mixes and keeps picking up this moisture from the ground and lakes and rivers and wet snow before squeezing it all back out as it freezes, so you get chiiled to the bone, and you clothes and sleeping bag even gets damp even before things really start freezing, and then the temperature really gets dropping once the sun goes down and then your in for a really cold night.
That's why I like wool sweaters the way I do, and fire, and food. :)
Montana Mac
10-25-2008, 13:44
I know we are getting off topic here but I will tell you I feel colder at 32F degrees in New England than I do a 0F degrees in Montana - it is that damp humid New England air!
That's what I was refering to. We had a particularly nasty day like that a couple of days ago, and there wasn't even ice on the puddles yet.
I would think you might get conditions like that in Montana also if you got a heavy rain on snow, followed by a cold air outbreak. Not sure. Probably depends on which side of the mountains you are on or where you are in the woods. Anyone? Where is that Montana guy?
I know March is supposed to be the worst month to be in the woods here in New Brunswick and Maine, even though January is colder. I don't know that for sure because I haven't gone deep in the woods in March to find out. I've heard it said the logging companies used to have alot of trouble keeping men and horses working in the woods in March. I would like to stick my nose in and check that out sometime. I've looked at climate data and you can get some pretty nasty fluctuations in March, with rain on top of alot of melting snow while there is alot of snow in the woods, but then more snow and subzero temperatures right after that, with warm wet winds from the Southwest followed immediately with a cold air outbreak from the North. I've also heard there are places in the deep woods that you can fall through snow and ice into a lake that doesn't even exist in the summer. There are places along the Fundy Footpath, like a place called Cougar's Lair, where I can see that happening. Lots of rock and sinkholes and stuff, and ice and snow might plug natural drainage up so you get temporary lakes after thaws that can get frozen and snowed over.
What was this thread about?
I know we are getting off topic here but I will tell you I feel colder at 32F degrees in New England than I do a 0F degrees in Montana - it is that damp humid New England air!
I agree. I visited family in New England (and did a short backpacking trip in NH) (http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/component/option,com_mojo/Itemid,/p,3/)and was again reminded of what a difference humidity makes. There, 55F means a jacket and long pants. Here? I am comfortable in shorts and a long sleeve shirt.
To get back on topic. For shoulder season hiking (and ski touring) I do bring a Thermawrap. The rest of the time I just walk all day and get into my sleeping bag if it gets cooler.
gonewalkabout
10-26-2008, 16:45
Does Patagonia they still make the micro puff pullover? I didn't see it on their site. Also has anyone used Mont Bells UL thermal wrap? How does the loft compare to the down version?
Thanks
No Belay
11-16-2008, 21:38
For a couple of years it seemed every winter hike I did I ended up in a partial rain/snow environment. After suffering through several wet down situations I switched to synthetic and have never looked back. I carry a Patagonia Primaloft sweater/jacket and a EMS Primaloft vest in conjunction with a Marmot shell. I recently hiked the LT and in 22 days of hiking, it rained/snowed 18 of them. I didn't stay dry everyday, but I stayed warm. The 6 oz I added to my pack by going synthetic was not even a consideration compared to the comfort and safety I gained by it. It stays warm wet and dries in a fraction of the time that it takes down plus there's no clumping. I'm looking for a decent synthetic bag although I've never had any problems keeping my down ones dry.
TaTonka