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magic_game03
03-25-2004, 13:12
The trail is not a place to convert people! all through VA, Hercules (class of '99) has been leaving religious books in shelters. please inform people that this is not a storage shed, you pack it in you pack it out! this stuff becomes mouse fodder and then people complain about the mice. this goes for political messages too! it is your right to say what you please, but don't try to bring it out to the trail and nail it to a shelter.

thanks,

magic
ga>me'03
ga>me'04

brack
03-25-2004, 13:53
you dont support trail magic do you?

Moon Monster
03-25-2004, 13:56
Does this go for paperbacks, too? How about food and other trail magic? Matches? Bug spray?

How about shelter registers?

I actually picked up a couple different paperbacks in shelters during my thru-hike. I enjoyed reading them along the way and then leaving them for another hiker to enjoy. One was Krakauer's "Into the Wild", which another hiker had been telling me about just days before I found it in the shleter. What a grand coincidence. Another was a book that Tinka had in his car when he gave me a wonderfully needed magic ride into town during a snowstorm. We chatted about the book, and then a month later I found the same book in a shelter signed by Tinka. Both cool coincidences and I'm glad the books were left behind.

I'm not sure how leaving a book in a high-impact camping area like an AT shelter violates LNT ethics. I saw lots of books, and I only cared to pick up 2 of them. The others I ignored.

It was darn simple to ignore what I didn't care to read.

Blue Jay
03-25-2004, 14:11
The trail is not a place to convert people! all through VA, Hercules (class of '99) has been leaving religious books in shelters. please inform people that this is not a storage shed, you pack it in you pack it out! this stuff becomes mouse fodder and then people complain about the mice. this goes for political messages too! it is your right to say what you please, but don't try to bring it out to the trail and nail it to a shelter.

thanks,

magic
ga>me'03
ga>me'04

I do appreciate your concern, however it is actually valuable as fire starter. Please all you bible thumpers only infect the shelters with material without plastic covers. Please pack those out. As Moon Monster said, books are good. Read them or burn them, it's all good.

A-Train
03-25-2004, 14:19
To me, Bibles and religious and political messages are like Trail Magic. I never get why people complain and get so bent out of shape about them. Its simple. If you don't agree, don't take part. Simply ignore it. No one is making you read thru the bible and no one is making you drink that soda. If someone were reading the bible out loud at shelters, well thats a different story.

Moonmonster- I believe someone I hiked with for a long time was reading 'Into the Wild' down south, maybe It was Grunt or Dimples. I wonder if it was the same copy. We were all passing around novels and then ditching them in shelters (Into Thin Air, Ishmael, Walk Across America). I'm glad if these novels got well circulated, that was the point.

DebW
03-25-2004, 14:36
As a maintainer, I mostly agree with Magic. Paper (books, magazines, toilet paper) will become mouse fodder sooner or later, enhancing the mouse population and making the shelters dirty and hard to clean. If I find a paperback book in a shelter I might leave it if it's likely to be picked up soon and isn't yet mouse chewed. If it's obviously been there awhile and the mice have begun to enjoy it, I pack it out. Religious, political, or other printed material should not be left in shelters with the intention that it will stay there and be read by passing hikers. Likewise, food should not be left in shelters. If you have extra food, pack it out or give it to another hiker.

Amazin_Grace
03-25-2004, 16:18
Last spring while hiking the AT from Killington to Hanover, three of us arrived at a shelter soaking wet and freezing. There was cut and split wood piled ready for a fire (trail magic? Someone had worked hard on it), but we had nothing dry to start it with--until we found that someone had left a very graphic porno magazine in the shelter. It made great tinder!

spanky
03-25-2004, 16:32
Gee whiz... I noticed that you hike the A.T. two times and yet, are still that cynical? Maybe you should try hiking the A.T. solo southbound like I did. You might see things alot differently when you come into the shelter after hiking alone for weeks at a time... a mouse is a great little guy to spend time with ya know.

Spanky (been there, done that- for Jesus no less!)
SOBO '02

weary
03-25-2004, 19:10
To me, Bibles and religious and political messages are like Trail Magic. I never get why people complain and get so bent out of shape about them. Its simple. If you don't agree, don't take part. Simply ignore it. No one is making you read thru the bible and no one is making you drink that soda.

In Maine, and I believe also in the official guidelines of ATC, maintainers are told to remove everything left in the shelters, that has not been put there by the maintaining club.

That includes, books, bibles, clothing, trash, food, business cards -- everything. Why? Ninety percent of such stuff never gets used. Eventually it rots, gets chewed by animals, molds, what not. Maintainers have to pack out most of it anyway.

Stuff left is essentially litter, and like litter, once it collects more is certain to be added to the pile. When a weekend hiker finds he has brought too much food or unneeded clothing, the easy solution is to leave the surplus in the shelter. That's why all our shelters have carry in, carry out signs and leave no trace signs.

The signs are obeyed until a violation occurs. Then stuff accumulates rapidly unless a maintainer shows up quickly and carts it all out.

The comment that such junk is not really a violation of LNT, illustrates why I think it is a meaningless slogan. My God. It sits in the shelters in a pile. Of course, it's a trace. It's more than a trace. It's litter that breeds more litter, unless taken away quickly. Leave no trace is an impossible goal. Everyone leaves foot prints in the mud. Holes from hiking sticks in the trail soils. The result. LNT becomes just another meaningless set of words to be ignored.

The evidence is clear that the old "Carry In, Carry out," was far more effective, because you either did it or you didn't. There was no ambiguity. Unfortunately, "Leave No Trace" has evolved into a business, that employs scores, probably hundreds, of people. The profit motive remains alive and well even on the trails, and Leave No Trace will remain with us until someone invents a more profitable slogan.

Weary

spanky
03-25-2004, 20:08
The trail is not a place to convert people! all through VA, Hercules (class of '99) has been leaving religious books in shelters. please inform people that this is not a storage shed, you pack it in you pack it out! this stuff becomes mouse fodder and then people complain about the mice. this goes for political messages too! it is your right to say what you please, but don't try to bring it out to the trail and nail it to a shelter.

thanks,

magic
ga>me'03
ga>me'04

You are right of course! But, my post was meant more as a light hearted jab at majic's premise for thinking only religious books qualify as mouse fodder. I suppose, it would have made more of an impact if I would have printed out his original post and then put copies of it (and our responses to hiim) in every shelter on the A.T.

That might irritate he and everyone else but at least it will keep God's little mice warm for the winter!

Best Quote I ever heard on the trail:

Mother Goose (Florida - Canada IAT '02) I met her at Rainbow Shelter in Maine. This is the advice she gave me as I was embarking on my hike southbound to Georgia...

"Stay away from the women in town!" With that, she trudged off northbound and into oblivion. Gotta love it!

Happy hiking my friend!

Chappy
03-25-2004, 22:48
The trail is not a place to convert people! all through VA, Hercules (class of '99) has been leaving religious books in shelters. please inform people that this is not a storage shed, you pack it in you pack it out! this stuff becomes mouse fodder and then people complain about the mice. this goes for political messages too! it is your right to say what you please, but don't try to bring it out to the trail and nail it to a shelter.

Your thread seems to assume that by leaving religious books in shelters that Hercules is trying to convert people. Maybe he, along with those who leave novels, is simply leaving something for people to read. Did you notice if he was standing there forcing people to read? And was he actually nailing books to shelters? Or maybe you feel he was also trying to convert the mice as they consumed the "fodder."
Seems to me Hercules is just probably practicing his freedoms as guaranteed by our Constitution and what he feels is his calling based on his religious beliefs. You don't have to read what he leaves, nor do you have the right to impose on him what you believe is the perfect hike.
One thing I've learned in my short time in the hiking community is there are diverse views about the AT and about how you should hike. I've decided not to get too involved in discussing those things and just do what I feel is good for me by enjoying the outdoors, doing something for the environment, and being thankful I live in America.
Praise the Lord!

Lilred
03-26-2004, 08:20
I stayed in a shelter one night that had a bible in the tube along with the register. Kept it from getting chewed up. I'm glad it was there. I spent the evening as the sun went down enjoying a good read. Was one of my most spiritual moments on the trail. Too bad some people think it isn't 'necessary or practical'. I guess some want it their way, for everybody.

spanky
03-26-2004, 08:25
That's cool...!

Crash
03-26-2004, 10:19
It's all about how YOU treat other people! That's one of the major themes in The Good Book. So even if you don't believe in God, you can still get personal enlightenment from reading it.

And after reading some of the other threads about this subject, I think both sides need to remember how to treat others.

oyvay
03-26-2004, 14:15
The bibles are left by people who wish to share their faith. Others of different faiths, Atheists, Agnostics, etc have a choice to read them or not. The ones that leave the bible(s) or "inspirational material" should also realize when it's very cold or wet out, some hikers will use it to start a fire.
I'd rather the bible(s) be left at the shelters than to have people in my face "spewing" their gospels and trying to "save me." I have my own thank you very much and you have yours.

Moon Monster
03-27-2004, 19:31
The comment that such junk is not really a violation of LNT, illustrates why I think it is a meaningless slogan. My God. It sits in the shelters in a pile. Of course, it's a trace. It's more than a trace. It's litter that breeds more litter, unless taken away quickly. Leave no trace is an impossible goal. Everyone leaves foot prints in the mud. Holes from hiking sticks in the trail soils. The result. LNT becomes just another meaningless set of words to be ignored.
Weary

I believe your interpretation of LNT shows that ethic to be meaningless more than saying literature left in shelters does. LNT is not meant to be an impossible goal because it does not mean to litterally "leave no trace."

Rather, it is a proposed set of ethical rules. At the center of those rules is to limit your impact to zones already highly impacted in the wilds if such exist. The AT itself and most areas along its corridor are already highly impacted. Shelters, particularly, are high impact zones and it is best, according to LNT ethics, to more often than not perform most of your impacting activities around them rather than being diffuse.

Perhaps it is better to not leave a single skin cell or eyelash or even a molecule of your exhaled CO2 in an AT shelter, but I say: since the shelters already attract the most damaging impact to the naturality of the AT-area, simply shrug your shoulders at something as benign as an additional stack of paper and glue sitting in the corner.

To everyone who doesn;t want religious messages left in shelters: why have you not said the same thing about the registers?

(A-Train: my copy of Into the Wild was left by WalkOn who was up front near you at somepoint I think)

weary
03-28-2004, 09:21
LNT is not meant to be an impossible goal because it does not mean to litterally "leave no trace."

Then why not use words that do convey "litterally" what you mean? Communication is difficult enough without deliberately using meaningless code words.

Leave no trace served some purpose in the late 60s and early 1970s when it was introduced towards the end of the era when people were still cutting evergreen boughs for beds and every fireplace had it's near by can dump.

But the guy who invented the concept, and was rediculed in a beautiful piece in the Wall Street Journal that still sticks in my mind 30 years later about a Paul Petzolt (sp) who advocated drinking your used dish water while in the woods.

I laughed at the idea until it dawned on me that that was what I did, only I didn't think of it as dishwater, just my final cup of coffee rinsing away the dregs of my oatmeal.

Paul introduced the idea. He had abandoned the idea as counterproductive by the time I knew him in the last 10 years of his life. His point: It was an impossible goal, and therefore people automatically tuned out the message.

LNT has become almost a cult -- and like most cults is perpetuated by the profit motive. Of course, for the true believers LNT is an ethical and philosphical concept. I have no problem with that.

The problem is that only one outdoor user in a thousand reads the manuals and takes the course. All most hear is an obviously meaningless slogan that even the proponents don't practice.

I once sat quietly while a LNT advocate lectured me on her philosophy and then watched as she walked away with lug-soled boots and Lekis poking two holes in trail with every step.

Weary

Ridge
03-28-2004, 13:16
As a trail maintainer I am absolutly opposed to anyone leaving anything on or near the trail. "Trail Magic" (or just passing along stuff) should be done on a person to person basis. If I have extra food (or anything) I ask hikers if they want it, If not, it gets packed out. I've seen printed material handed out, just gets thrown on the ground most of the time. Litter, I have yet to see a firepit that isn't just full of everything (non burnable), its terrible. Littering is a bad habit which some consider a way of life. Hikers/backpackers should be the last to litter. I just wish it was true. PS: I have actually seen USFS employees litter. I also wish they (USFS employees) wouldn't burn "Love Letters" like was done in Colorado a few years back, Thousands of acres and much wildlife destroyed.

Chef2000
03-28-2004, 17:50
Just removed a Readers Digest today from October Mt Shelter on a trip to remove blowdowns. The shelter is very clean, and some had stayed last night.

In 2000 there was a guy who had a jesus loves you sign on the back of his pack, He ended up breaking his leg:-?

As a shelter maintainer, please pack everything out. And try not burn all your trash either.

Thanx

Chappy
03-28-2004, 18:45
In 2000 there was a guy who had a jesus loves you sign on the back of his pack, He ended up breaking his leg:-? Thanx

So....are you saying Jesus didn't love him? My knowledge of Jesus leads me to believe that Jesus did love him...he just had an accident! :-?

Jaybird
03-28-2004, 20:04
Just removed a Readers Digest today from October Mt Shelter on a trip to remove blowdowns. The shelter is very clean, and some had stayed last night.In 2000 there was a guy who had a jesus loves you sign on the back of his pack, He ended up breaking his leg:-? Thanx



Chef2000 he probably tripped over an agnostic! hehehehe!



and from magic_game03

The trail is not a place to convert people! all through VA, Hercules (class of '99) has been leaving religious books in shelters. please inform people that this is not a storage shed, you pack it in you pack it out! this stuff becomes mouse fodder and then people complain about the mice. this goes for political messages too! it is your right to say what you please, but don't try to bring it out to the trail and nail it to a shelter.
thanks,magicga>me'03ga>me'04 .................................................. .................................................. ....................blah,blah,blah................ ...........
. As Moon Monster said, books are good. Read them or burn them, it's all good.


So, we're back to book-burning again?????

Brushy Sage
03-28-2004, 20:40
Well it seems we have two pages of personal opinions and the citing of various "policies," and I'm wondering if the ATC actually does have any "official" policy about leaving religious materials in shelters. I remember seeing a religious group in Washington's Reagan National Airport several years ago, and there was a sign nearby, posted by airport officials I suppose, that the group was not "sponsored" by the airport but were exercising their rights of free speech. Does that apply to national parks as well? If so, what are the limits, and who oversees the activity? Personally, I don't believe we have a situation that is anywhere near being out of hand along the AT, and in fact it might be better if no "national" standard is brought to bear (pun unintentional) on the situation.

TJ aka Teej
03-28-2004, 21:55
I'm wondering if the ATC actually does have any "official" policy about leaving religious materials in shelters.

Nope. Although ATC does not have a formal Leave-No-Trace policy, they do encourage the policy and educate hikers about LNT ethics. That would cover leaving things (any *things*) in shelters. But even so, maintainers pack out load upon load of hiker leavings every year. Please, don't leave things in shelters.

bobgessner57
03-28-2004, 22:25
Bibles, Korans, or other religious books that have stood the test of time may be of interest or use to people seeking inspiration or guidance on the trail. I find the tracts and virulent anti semetic or anti catholic pamphlets and broadsheets particularly distasteful and out of harmony with the trail as a community asset. Perhaps the big books are not in keeping with lnt ideals but they are easier to overlook if not desired. Somehow the hate tracts are far more intrusive and upsetting. They would even give the mice bad karma. It always amazes me how far some people will carry a load of crap.

Lint
03-31-2004, 15:28
I had some fellow stop me as I was walking on my thru-hike last summer, and he tried to give me a bible. I politely declined his offer, but he wouldn't take no for an answer. Told me to ditch my food and rely on jesus to provide! It got very uncomfortable, but I remained polite. Trying to argue with these people is like telling a child Santa is fake. They get all huffy and upset! But anyway...
So this guy ended up throwing the bible out onto the street and driving away. I picked it up and disposed of it. Litter is litter! Religious propaganda has no place ANYWHERE! Who hasn't heard of god in this world? If they want to believe myth and superstition they already will, but some of us grow up and leave Santa and the Toothfairy in the dustbin. If someone wants to serve a master, let them, but please leave us freethinkers alone.

MOWGLI
03-31-2004, 15:40
In 2000 there was a guy who had a jesus loves you sign on the back of his pack, He ended up breaking his leg:-?


Chef, that was Moses, and he was one of my favorite folks on the trail. BTW, the sign said "Jesus is Lord".

Brushy Sage
03-31-2004, 16:00
I have met at least three hikers named Moses in recent years, and have even been mistaken for him myself. A popular name!

walkon
03-31-2004, 16:18
"(A-Train: my copy of Into the Wild was left by WalkOn who was up front near you at somepoint I think)"

cool, im glad you enjoyed it. appropriate book for a thru hike read with the striking out into the unknown and such...
walkon

Chef2000
03-31-2004, 17:37
Thanx Little Bear, Thats what it said. I remember him, he was a nice guy.

Chef2000
03-31-2004, 17:45
Thanx Little Bear, Thats what it said. I remember him, he was a nice guy.

And again it does not matter what it is, if you leave at a shelter, someone else has to carry it out.

And Chappy you were almost right, I meant, it didnt matter who loved him, he still broke his leg( or was it his Knee) ?

Lint, to bad you didnt have a Satanic Bible to trade with him:jump

Chappy
03-31-2004, 18:52
Religious propaganda has no place ANYWHERE!

That sounds like a real freethinker! It's fine to be open-minded, just don't let your brains fall out.

Jody7818
04-01-2004, 09:03
That sounds like a real freethinker! It's fine to be open-minded, just don't let your brains fall out.

LOL....I'll have to remember that one the next time a freethinker uses the term "open-minded". But it's kinda silly that people get offended when someone tries to talk to them about the Bible, God, or Jesus. I never have understood that. Isn't it just simple peer pressure? It's not like someone has a gun to their head.

Lone Wolf
04-01-2004, 09:05
Shelters THEMSELVES offend me a lot more than the s**t IN them. Lighten up on the bibles kiddies. :sun

Toofarafoot
04-01-2004, 09:50
This topic reminds me of a section hike that a buddy and I took in VA a few years ago. We encountered a smiling fellow, who wore a large medallion stating "God Loves You!", and his partner who was dragging a large wooden cross, draped over his shoulder. I was SO tempted to tell him that he had one helluva walking stick, but kept my mouth shut; didn't want to sour his seemingly happy mood.

Toofarafoot

oyvay
04-01-2004, 13:50
This topic reminds me of a section hike that a buddy and I took in VA a few years ago. We encountered a smiling fellow, who wore a large medallion stating "God Loves You!", and his partner who was dragging a large wooden cross, draped over his shoulder. I was SO tempted to tell him that he had one helluva walking stick, but kept my mouth shut; didn't want to sour his seemingly happy mood.

Toofarafoot

I met those two just before the James river in 2001! (unless more than one hiker drags a large cross them) I didn't say a word about it, but just looking at the cross made my pack seem a lot lighter! I did say they had doozy of a climb ahead of them.

bearbait2k4
04-01-2004, 14:27
Why should it bother some people that others take their faith out on the trail with them?

I have seen plenty of books, whether it be a Bible or any other reading material, left in shelters, and sometimes it becomes overkill. I don't think that leaving your Bibles at home is going to really change this.

People should practice common sense when it comes to leaving reading material at shelters. If there is a already a collection of books at one, then I guess there is no need to add to that pile.

To each his/her own, though. I don't think anyone is out there trying to force any reading down you.

Jody7818
04-01-2004, 17:44
Why should it bother some people that others take their faith out on the trail with them?

I have seen plenty of books, whether it be a Bible or any other reading material, left in shelters, and sometimes it becomes overkill. I don't think that leaving your Bibles at home is going to really change this.

People should practice common sense when it comes to leaving reading material at shelters. If there is a already a collection of books at one, then I guess there is no need to add to that pile.

To each his/her own, though. I don't think anyone is out there trying to force any reading down you.

Good point...I couldn't have said it any better.

Needles
04-02-2004, 17:46
Religious propaganda has no place ANYWHERE!
Sinp
Who hasn't heard of god in this world? If they want to believe myth and superstition they already will, but some of us grow up and leave Santa and the Toothfairy in the dustbin.
Snip
but please leave us freethinkers alone.

Freethinkers?
I should be getting used to this by now since I have lived in Seattle for almost 6 months, but I'm not. Up here it seems the majority of people consider themselves very open minded but think it is offensive for anyone who might hold any ideas that differ from their's to voice them.
If the person who stopped you really wouldn't take no for an answer, then that is simply wrong, if he littered by throwing a book on the ground then this is also wrong. However the contents of that book don't make it any more wrong than if he had thrown a copy of "The Complete Walker" on the ground.
I don't think anyone should be leaving anything behind in shelters, period, no matter what it is, but I would rather find a bible in a shelter than the porn magazine mentioned earlier in this thread. The bible is just somewhat easier to explain to a group of boy scouts than the porn would be.
My suggestion for anyone who never wants to hear the opinions of religious persons, republicans, democrats, communists, environmentalists, SUV owners, or any other group that has an opinion on anything, is to stay home, keep the TV turned off, don't turn on the radio or pick up a newspaper or a magazine, and please, what ever you do, don't answer the phone.
Persinally I will go out and hear what everyone has to say and make my own decisions, heck, I might even get into an argument or two, but I won't let that stop me from enjoying myself. Heck, wasn't the right to free speech, with all the good and bad things that right brings, part of the reason many people came to the US in the first place?

Jaybird
04-02-2004, 18:00
Freethinkers?
I should be getting used to this by now since I have lived in Seattle for almost 6 months, but I'm not. Up here it seems the majority of people consider themselves very open minded but think it is offensive for anyone who might hold any ideas that differ from their's to voice them.
If the person who stopped you really wouldn't take no for an answer, then that is simply wrong, if he littered by throwing a book on the ground then this is also wrong. However the contents of that book don't make it any more wrong than if he had thrown a copy of "The Complete Walker" on the ground.
I don't think anyone should be leaving anything behind in shelters, period, no matter what it is, but I would rather find a bible in a shelter than the porn magazine mentioned earlier in this thread. The bible is just somewhat easier to explain to a group of boy scouts than the porn would be.
My suggestion for anyone who never wants to hear the opinions of religious persons, republicans, democrats, communists, environmentalists, SUV owners, or any other group that has an opinion on anything, is to stay home, keep the TV turned off, don't turn on the radio or pick up a newspaper or a magazine, and please, what ever you do, don't answer the phone.
Persinally I will go out and hear what everyone has to say and make my own decisions, heck, I might even get into an argument or two, but I won't let that stop me from enjoying myself. Heck, wasn't the right to free speech, with all the good and bad things that right brings, part of the reason many people came to the US in the first place?



AMEN to that Brother!


hey, i carry a pocket Bible with me on the trail...but, it's for my own consumption....i consider myself a "spiritual person" rather than a religious person...yes, i'm a Christian...but i beleive i have NO Right to force my beliefs on any others.

eyahiker
05-05-2004, 14:12
Well said JayBird! I'll have to agree that some of the info doesn't belong in shelters, but it amazes how people always have stories about the Bible specifically more than others...perhaps because more people read it...hmmm. Maybe since it's so full of cool nature references.....

If you aren't interested in something, just move on.

I had a "religeous" person try to do some kind of tarot thing one time, who wants to ruin a perfectly good morning 'knowing' the future about that day ( I may never crawl out of my bag!) I had no desire to listen, hard to escape when there's no where else to sleep.... gradually feigned snoring till they shut up;)

spanky
05-05-2004, 14:45
We seem to be getting all theological here folks! What about the mice? Don't they have a voice in all this?

eyahiker
05-05-2004, 15:15
You'll have to ask someone who thinks they were a mouse in a former life ;)

Mountain Dew
05-06-2004, 02:28
I heard a few people claim that they burn the religious articles they find in shelters. Would you actually burn a Bible to start a fire ? I carried a very small Bible on my 2003 thru-hike and even got asked if somebody sould borrow it a few times by my fellow hikers. I told them to carry it for a day then ask me again. hahaahaa There are TONS of long distance hikers in the Bible. Read the book Acts in the Bible and see many examples of this. Issiah was a thru-hiker....

Amazing Grace.....I know the person that left those porn magazines in the shelter. I tried to get them from him the night before to burn as a fire starter, but he/she wouldn't give them up !!! It was cold those nights huh ?

Question for those of you that say Bibles have no place in shelters.... Do you also avoid the church hostels or the trail magic given by churches ?

Go in peace. Your journey has the Lord's approval. ( Judges 18:6 )
I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)

Chappy
05-06-2004, 06:13
I heard a few people claim that they burn the religious articles they find in shelters. Would you actually burn a Bible to start a fire ? I carried a very small Bible on my 2003 thru-hike and even got asked if somebody sould borrow it a few times by my fellow hikers. I told them to carry it for a day then ask me again. hahaahaa There are TONS of long distance hikers in the Bible. Read the book Acts in the Bible and see many examples of this. Issiah was a thru-hiker....

Amazing Grace.....I know the person that left those porn magazines in the shelter. I tried to get them from him the night before to burn, but he/she would give them up !!! It was cold those nights huh ?

Question for those of you that say Bibles have no place in shelters.... Do you also avoid the church hostels or the trail magic given by churches ?

Go in peace. Your journey has the Lord's approval. ( Judges 18:6 )
I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)

Paul was definitely a long distance hiker!

You raise an interesting subject with your statement about churches providing trail magic. Did that happen often? Also, how are hikers accepted in churches along the trail?

eyahiker
05-06-2004, 06:22
I'm with you guys on this one. You're right the Bible is FULL of really cool hiker, nature, mountain outdoor references, after all the Creator wrote it and he should know :D

Here's a couple I really like....

Psalms 27:5 - For he will hide me in his shelter in the day of trouble; he will conceal me under the cover of his tent, he will set me high upon a rock

Isaiah 4:6 - It will be for a shade by day from the heat, and for a refuge and a shelter from the storm and rain.

Matthew 24:28 - Wherever children of God are, there the eagles will be gathered together.

Revelation 12:14 - But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. :sun

I'm not sure that just leaving around Bibles is a good thing though, one can't assume that they will be used, or read or appreciated. Some people really get disgusted with readers digest too.........

This is a pretty cool thread, I've learned alot about other folks, and it's a hard one, have to side on both sides in certain instances, but then again, a house divided against itself.............:-?

Blue Jay
05-06-2004, 07:25
Paul was definitely a long distance hiker!

You raise an interesting subject with your statement about churches providing trail magic. Did that happen often? Also, how are hikers accepted in churches along the trail?

There are many churches along the trail that go WAY out of the way to help and shelter hikers. I'd list them but I'd not want to leave one out. Even a nonbeliever would come to love the churches of the AT.

Alligator
05-06-2004, 12:18
Would you actually burn a Bible to start a fire ?
Question for those of you that say Bibles have no place in shelters.... Do you also avoid the church hostels or the trail magic given by churches ?



I'm really not inclined to burning the Bible unless I absolutely had to for personal survival. But I carry white gas so this is doubtful. However, I have burned religious pamphlets over lunch before.

I certainly do ask that hikers refrain from leaving religious materials in shelters and books in general. While I may pick up a few stray pieces of foil or plastic, I am not inclined to packing out books. Which, fyi, are generally chewed up by the mice during the times of year that I hike.

Yes I avoid church hostels, but I'm only a section hiker so they are never necessary. Since I generally avoid the thru-hiker pack, I am often not around for any trail magic. If there was a cooler with a note saying "compliments of X religious institution" I'd certainly grab a beer out of there. ;) (or a soda). But I would avoid anything organized with people from the institution because while trail magic should not have any strings attached, this type of situation has a high probability of some form of religious overtones.

rickb
05-06-2004, 12:34
"I carried a very small Bible on my 2003 thru-hike and even got asked if somebody sould borrow it a few times by my fellow hikers. I told them to carry it for a day then ask me again."

That's funny.

I guess that's better than telling them to go to hell. ;-)

Rick B

(Who appreciates irony, even if you we only joshing, like I suspect)

Tha Wookie
05-06-2004, 14:18
In Maine, and I believe also in the official guidelines of ATC, maintainers are told to remove everything left in the shelters, that has not been put there by the maintaining club.

That includes, books, bibles, clothing, trash, food, business cards -- everything. Why? Ninety percent of such stuff never gets used. Eventually it rots, gets chewed by animals, molds, what not. Maintainers have to pack out most of it anyway.

Stuff left is essentially litter, and like litter, once it collects more is certain to be added to the pile. When a weekend hiker finds he has brought too much food or unneeded clothing, the easy solution is to leave the surplus in the shelter. That's why all our shelters have carry in, carry out signs and leave no trace signs.

The signs are obeyed until a violation occurs. Then stuff accumulates rapidly unless a maintainer shows up quickly and carts it all out.

The comment that such junk is not really a violation of LNT, illustrates why I think it is a meaningless slogan. My God. It sits in the shelters in a pile. Of course, it's a trace. It's more than a trace. It's litter that breeds more litter, unless taken away quickly. Leave no trace is an impossible goal. Everyone leaves foot prints in the mud. Holes from hiking sticks in the trail soils. The result. LNT becomes just another meaningless set of words to be ignored.

The evidence is clear that the old "Carry In, Carry out," was far more effective, because you either did it or you didn't. There was no ambiguity. Unfortunately, "Leave No Trace" has evolved into a business, that employs scores, probably hundreds, of people. The profit motive remains alive and well even on the trails, and Leave No Trace will remain with us until someone invents a more profitable slogan.

Weary

Weary,

You obviously know very little about LNT, Inc. Absolutely no one is getting rich off of it. It was founded by public-funded researchers like David Cole (Forest Service) and Jeff Marion (Virginia Tech, USGS), and of course the National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS)to limit impacts on trails, and the money is used to circulate educational materials, training, and to conduct reasearch on trail impacts.

"Pack it in, Pack it out" messages were not replaced by LNT. In fact, much the LNT knowledge educates the trail user to understand WHY they should not leave litter, intsead of just telling them not to do so. These messages work together.

In addition, LNT focuses on many other things that the above mentioned slogan doesn't capture, like ways to prevent environmental impacts (litter being a more social impact) such as cutting switchbacks (causes excessive erosion) and using camp stoves instead of having a fire at every camp.

I'm under the impression that you were just looking for something to say or you don't actually get out to trailheads and read the guidelines yourself, so I'll stop here.

I am slightly defensive because I know personally LNT researchers and educators, and they largley sacrifice financial excess out of love for nature, the trails, and the exerience that you and I have out there.

Read up! www.lnt.org (http://www.lnt.org)

Lone Wolf
05-06-2004, 14:30
The caretaker dude of Wiley shelter in NY doesn't practice no LNT or "pack it in, pack it out". There's dozens of Books, magazines and newspapers at that place. He does "safety checks" 3-4 times a day too. :cool:

Tha Wookie
05-06-2004, 14:41
On my thru, I was disgusted to see biblical "tracks" not just in the shelters, but STREWN ABOUT ON THE TRAIL ITSELF in somewhat strategic and intentional locations. For instance, I saw some stuck on tree limbs so a hiker would hit his head on it.

As a Christian, this really hurt me. This type of tastless psuedo-evangelism belongs no where on the AT. Frankly, it makes Christians look bad. Moveover, it highlights the near-complete degredation of modern-day structured Christianity into an absolute mindless circus. People that do such things are so caught up in the Dogma that they are force-fed in church that they ignore the purpose for it all.

Take, for instance, the track on the tree. As I pocketed the track (and cleaned up the other litter left by psuedo-evangelists), I missed something: THE TREE! I was suddenly ripped away from my pure walk in God's land and forced to focus on tastless litter.

It makes me assume that the litterers in this case are so UNCONNECTED with Gods presence that they don't see how disgraceful their actions were. This is probably because, instead of listening to God and acting by His will, they are acting based on the misguidance of their flawful church members. I assume this, because what they were doing was effectually COVERING UP GOD'S MESSAGE with dogma!

In a man-made environment, these tracks might be appropriate -but not ON the trail. It is incredible sef-defeating, in my opinion.

Sarge
05-09-2004, 00:18
I'm with you guys on this one. You're right the Bible is FULL of really cool hiker, nature, mountain outdoor references, after all the Creator wrote it and he should knowI've always liked this one:

Deuteronomy 23:13 "And you shall have an implement among your equipment, and when you sit down outside, you shall dig with it and turn and cover your refuse."

Sarge

Chappy
05-09-2004, 02:15
There are many churches along the trail that go WAY out of the way to help and shelter hikers. I'd list them but I'd not want to leave one out. Even a nonbeliever would come to love the churches of the AT.
Thanks, Blue Jay. I've been in the field for a few days and just getting back to WB. Really good to hear the churches along the AT have that reputation. Wish all did. I look forward to experiencing their hospitality and message.

weary
05-09-2004, 09:50
Weary,

You obviously know very little about LNT, Inc. Absolutely no one is getting rich off of it. It was founded by public-funded researchers like David Cole (Forest Service) and Jeff Marion (Virginia Tech, USGS), and of course the National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS)to limit impacts on trails, and the money is used to circulate educational materials, training, and to conduct reasearch on trail impacts.
]

I don't know about getting rich. But it is a business with employees that get paid and which protects its slogan and its pay checks by requiring organzations that use the words "Leave No Trace" to pay a fee.

My objection to the slogan is that the vast majority of hikers tend to tune out message because it obviously can't be achieved.

If the slogan had any meaning to most hikers the vast and growing popularity of sharppointed hiking poles that leave a trace with every step would never have happened.

I do know that Paul Petzolt (sp), the guy that founded NOLS and originated the slogan, abandoned it towards the end of his long life for the same reason I do. The slogan is impossible to achieve and thus is ignored by most hikers.

Weary

Tha Wookie
05-09-2004, 11:32
Would you rather it say "leave no perceptable trace"? Leaving no trace is not impossible. I can do it. So can you.


Their efforts are now seen on many maps, trailheads, and pubic trail information sources. Without it, people would not know as much about there impacts. I do agree that the rigidity that comes with an institutionalized message might alianate some people. But it's simply better than not having that inforamation at all.

One of the major reasons they exist is because after the 60's backpacking boom, managers went crazy with regulations and restrictions. But soon social and environmental scientists stepped in and offered an "education over regulation" alternative. The idea is to positively empower the trail user to make the least impacting behavior choices instead of hunting them down and issuing citation tickets.

Don't get hung up on the term. I understand you like to debate things for debating sake (as I see from many other posts), but this is an issue that I believe is important to support and promote because the alternative is not appealing.

steve hiker
05-09-2004, 15:22
There are many churches along the trail that go WAY out of the way to help and shelter hikers. Even a nonbeliever would come to love the churches of the AT.
Like a bear coming to shelters to find food? I dunno Blue Jay, some of those hikers might become aggressive.

weary
05-09-2004, 16:26
....this is an issue that I believe is important to support and promote because the alternative is not appealing.

I'm not opposed to the effort of the LNT organization. I just wish they would develop a message that more hikers could relate to. Remember this conversation began from the claim that leaving stuff in shelters was not a violation of "Leave No Trace."

The mere fact that the claim can be taken seriously tells me that somehow LNT does not resonate with ordinary hikers. I've been a trail maintainer for MATC for at least 20 years -- maybe 25 -- and an unafilliated remover of trail and shelter trash for at least twice that long.

The environmental movement of the 60s and early 70s resulted in a major improvement in the cleanliness of trails and shelters. I've seen a reversal of that trend in recent years. I attribute it to a flawed message -- a message with good intentions -- but a message that for some reason outdoor people increasingly are ignoring.

But maybe the public is just reflecting the anti-enviromental mood of Bush -- or perhaps Bush is simply recognizing the anti-environmental mood of the public. Whatever. Its something I intend to oppose for the rest of my days -- and not just because I like to argue.

Weary

eyahiker
05-10-2004, 13:12
Let's move on from the whole scenario of Bears coming in and eating you, or keep in to the other post Bear Scared.

BACK TO THE SUBJECT........
It's too bad that the LNT philosphy is not adhered too, nothing like setting your tent up in the rain/dark on someone's unburried WASTE.:rolleyes:

Religeous messages are put out there by lots of folks, I was hiking in the middle of the forest, several MILES back here in FL and there was a 'kiosk' set up by the Hari Krishna's, they hauled this ENORMOUS tent way back there, it was quite the site...........I think there was going to be a Rainbow Gathering or something there the next week - talk about TRASHED, it was amazing to go back and witness the destruction of the forest these folks left, I was truly disappointed.

Lint
09-19-2004, 22:50
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."-James Madison

"Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if there be one, he must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear."-Thomas Jefferson

FatMan
09-19-2004, 22:57
I encourage everyone to pray for me on the trail. I need all the help I can get. Just do so silently.

Jaybird
09-20-2004, 05:19
You'll have to ask someone who thinks they were a mouse in a former life ;)

does this mean EYAHIKER might be open to the idea of reincarnation? ;)


"Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if there be one, he must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear."-Thomas Jefferson


you know Thomas Jefferson wrote his OWN BIBLE!
it's true!

Lilred
09-20-2004, 20:29
you know Thomas Jefferson[/I] wrote his OWN BIBLE!
it's true!


That's right. It consisted of only Jesus' life. It's called the 'Jefferson Bible".

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/

Lint
10-04-2004, 00:52
Yes, yes, more bibles! Ohhhh boy! People who need a savior to tell them how to live just aren't thinking for themselves. You aren't born with religion, it's taught! And a culture can teach funny things, including info that is nothing but myth. And if you really think religion is anything but myth you have yourself totally brainwashed by Mother Culture. I don't believe in fairy tales and I refuse to accept the delusion of a religion. Take yer head out of the sand! It's nothing but fiction!!!!!

Mountain Dew
10-04-2004, 05:31
I'll say that Bibles etc. need to be left out of shelters when those that claim that stop staying at Church Hostels and stop taking trail magic with scripture written on it alone. Deal ?

*such hatred for Chrsitianity on this thread. :-?

Blue Jay
10-04-2004, 08:05
I'll say that Bibles etc. need to be left out of shelters when those that claim that stop staying at Church Hostels and stop taking trail magic with scripture written on it alone. Deal ?


Deal (who would have thought). Bibles must not be left out of shelters, particularly at this time of the year. It's a safety issue. Who knows when a fire will save a life?

kentucky
10-04-2004, 09:09
Hey spanky! thanks for the bible near killington in 2002 It really gave me insperation at a hard time.I feel that its perfectly all right to leave religious material in shelters!Isnt that being a little harsh on religious people to point them out in generall!why not do away with all reading material then!as if to say isnt that being a little judgemental:rolleyes: kentucky ?

Lone Wolf
10-04-2004, 09:12
Get rid of all reading material? No way! I've seen hikers get ill cuz there was no register for them to keep up on the gossip. Amazing how hikers look so forward to reading a stupid register. :cool:

MOWGLI
10-04-2004, 09:25
Get rid of all reading material? No way! I've seen hikers get ill cuz there was no register for them to keep up on the gossip. Amazing how hikers look so forward to reading a stupid register. :cool:


C'mon now Wolf. Didn't I see your signature in a register in some photo book of the AT? I forget the name, but I have some photo book (with Katahdin on the cover) that has a photo of a register with a Lone Wolf entry. Pretty cool - it is.

smokymtnsteve
10-04-2004, 09:25
I'll say that Bibles etc. need to be left out of shelters when those that claim that stop staying at Church Hostels and stop taking trail magic with scripture written on it alone. Deal ?


DEAL.....but what are we gonna do for firestarter?

Lone Wolf
10-04-2004, 11:16
Yeah MOWGLI, the book is titled "Appalachian Trail - A Photographic Tour", page 107 shows a photo of an open register with my sig in it. It was the Dartmouth Outing Club's register at Robinson Hall in Hanover. It was August 6th of 98 and I was southbound. :)

weary
10-04-2004, 11:58
....I feel that its perfectly all right to leave religious material in shelters!Isnt that being a little harsh on religious people to point them out in generall!why not do away with all reading material then!as if to say isnt that being a little judgemental:rolleyes: kentucky ?

Shelter maintainers in Maine are asked to remove everything left in shelters that was not placed there by the Maine Appalachian Trail Club. This includes food, clothing, books, magazines, newspapers -- and yes, Bibles and religious materials.

Registers in Maine are placed in the shelters by MATC and remain the property of the club.

I think the Maine restrictions are in keeping with the goal of achieving a wild trail, treats everyone equally, and avoids a collection of junk that eventually has to be carried out by the maintainer anyway.

Yeah. It is a rule that is not always enforced, but most maintainers realize why it is important and do their best to fulfill their obligations.

Weary

kentucky
10-04-2004, 12:33
Well I guess that sums up the whole matter:clap kentucky!

JP
10-04-2004, 12:36
If the body is the temple of the soul, and the bible left behind was ment to save your soul, and you used a few pages to start a fire to save the body from hypothermia; then I guess it surved its porpose. I don't think God would mind.

smokymtnsteve
10-04-2004, 12:49
I must confess that I have left Edward Abbey books in the with shelter registers, always leaving my name and address in the front cover, and a note to return the book for postage and another Ed Abbey to be sent to them, I receive them back occasionally,

so I guess were all "looking for converts" :rolleyes:

sometimes I 'bait and switch" and send them a John Steinbeck book back instead of an Ed Abbey.

Goddess forgive ME!

Chappy
10-04-2004, 13:24
Yes, yes, more bibles! Ohhhh boy! People who need a savior to tell them how to live just aren't thinking for themselves. You aren't born with religion, it's taught! And a culture can teach funny things, including info that is nothing but myth. And if you really think religion is anything but myth you have yourself totally brainwashed by Mother Culture. I don't believe in fairy tales and I refuse to accept the delusion of a religion. Take yer head out of the sand! It's nothing but fiction!!!!!
Psalm 14:1 - "The fool has said in his heart there is no god."

Ol' Lint done gone and blabbed it right out of his mouth!

smokymtnsteve
10-04-2004, 13:34
Lint is no fool,,he is a nice guy,,

he worked real hard at HARDCORE this year, one of the best and hardest workers, I think he might read some Ed Abbey.

rocket04
10-04-2004, 13:41
And Lint's also the founder of the B.L.A.H.S.! Beware, it's all an elaborate plot to take over the trail. :D I wonder if he saw my entries in the registers in reference to that...

Lint
10-04-2004, 14:18
Freethinkers (atheists,agnostics,skeptics) form their opinions about religion on the basis of reason, rather than faith. When religionists are unable to successfully debate ideas with atheists, they often turn to character defamation. Even if all the absurd prejudices against atheists were true, that still would not make the incredible claims of religion true!
Prisons are full of religious criminals, our planet is besieged by "holy wars", and religion often leads followers astray. People taught never to question authority are more easily victimized or corrupted. The bible itself is a moral quagmire. Murderers, mutilators, sexists, racists and slaveholders have turned to bible texts to justify their conduct. Religion brought us the Dark Ages, the Crusades, the Inquisition, witch-burnings, and war. It has fueled bigotry, punished heretics, and fought against social reform and scientific progress. Religion has endorsed the oppression of women time and time again. It is dangerous and irresponsible to sacrifice your mind to the dictates of an imaginary authority, whether "god" or "devil".
Freethinkers do not live in a fool's paradise. They seek happiness here, now, in the real world. They are free of many crippling religious concepts which bring unhappiness, like, believing you are a lowly, unworthy sinner who caused someone else to die for your "crimes". Not to mention fear of hell, unnatural self-denial, forced sacrifice, and the stress of making yourself believe claims you know cannot be true.
And yes, Rocket, I read your register entry about the BLAHS. We aren't taking over anything! What is there to "take over" anyway? The BLAHS was just a humorous group started in defense of those who like to smoke and drink along the trail. Responsibly, of course.

smokymtnsteve
10-04-2004, 15:00
Psalm 14:1 - "The fool has said in his heart there is no god."

Ol' Lint done gone and blabbed it right out of his mouth!


I certainly hope you aren't calling Lint a FOOL

Matthew 5

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

SalParadise
10-04-2004, 15:29
Oh, no! There's a Bible in the shelter! Don't anybody touch it or you'll start a holy war!

So I guess "You don't have to read it" is too simple of an answer here. It's not like someone's standing on the picnic table prostelitizing. It's just another book left for some people to enjoy, and if Nietzsche were left in a shelter, I'd read that, too. Because some people disagree with the ideas espoused in any book is no cause for censorship.

Lint, we met in Hot Springs and you were very kind to share your cabin with me. But would you really say I was unhappy? A fool? Bigoted and masochistic? You're taking the actions of a few madmen and fundamentalists and judging that to be the true religious ethos. I also wonder what Jesus (certainly a reformer, Son of God or not), Rev. Dr. King, Daniel Berrigan, Martin Luther and others would say to your claims that religious people can not be free thinkers and agents of social change.

Alligator
10-04-2004, 20:01
And Lint's also the founder of the B.L.A.H.S.! Beware, it's all an elaborate plot to take over the trail. :D I wonder if he saw my entries in the registers in reference to that...That's my favorite trail term. I heard it from Still Learnin' over the summer in Jersey then saw it in one of the registers. My hat's off to you Mr. Lint. Let me get it straight though
Black Lung Alcoholic Hiker (ing?) Society?

weary
10-04-2004, 21:46
....You're taking the actions of a few madmen and fundamentalists and judging that to be the true religious ethos. I also wonder what Jesus (certainly a reformer, Son of God or not), Rev. Dr. King, Daniel Berrigan, Martin Luther and others would say to your claims that religious people can not be free thinkers and agents of social change.

I find fascinating that Jesus, certainly one of history's most profound liberals, today is championed by the most profoundly unthinking religious bigots.

Weary, with apologies to those increasingly minority Christians who truly are capable of reason and understanding.

lostjohn
10-04-2004, 23:15
Dear Lint

Having a backpack doesn't mean a person is a hiker anymore than having a Bible means someone is a follower of Christ. There are some who reason and question and find that God truly has all the answers. There are some who have observed and used the ability to think who have come to the realization that there truly is a God.

Sadly not all hikers are responsible, not are who are religious are either. Just as a drunken hiker in town or hostel gives a bad name to the hiking community, so can someone who calls themselves religious and............ well you seem to be a thinker,
you filled in the blank already.

Personally, I would rather not be known as religious, but as a Christian. A follower
of the one who would teach us not to be or do the evil things you mentioned.

I pray that I am a better Christian than I am a speller. Have a nice day and keep your soles on the trail.

rtr

smokymtnsteve
10-05-2004, 08:44
I find fascinating that Jesus, certainly one of history's most profound liberals, today is championed by the most profoundly unthinking religious bigots.

Weary, with apologies to those increasingly minority Christians who truly are capable of reason and understanding.


It seems that a lot of todays Xians believe IN Jesus,

very few believe LIKE Jesus,

Chappy
10-05-2004, 11:07
I certainly hope you aren't calling Lint a FOOL

Matthew 5

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Now, now Smoky...you know I was repeating what the Bible says. :)

MOWGLI
10-05-2004, 11:57
I certainly hope you aren't calling Lint a FOOL

Matthew 5

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Does that mean Mr. T is going to burn in hell? If so, I pity the fool... Oops, now I'm in trouble too. :D

smokymtnsteve
10-05-2004, 15:24
Now, now Smoky...you know I was repeating what the Bible says. :)

yea..my reference was from your bible too. ;)

Lint
10-06-2004, 13:16
Pardon me if my comments on christianity offended you, but this is something I feel strongly about. I wasn't trying to attack Christians personally. I know alot of Christians and am even friends with some. I know alot of people who are sexist and racist too, and I'll do my best to tear down their twisted beliefs by pointing out the flaws in this kind of thought.

If you want to believe in fairy tales, ghosts, space aliens, and Santa, by all means go for it. But don't be surprised when someone points out how silly these beliefs are. As long as these goofy beliefs stay out of the lives of nonbelievers we can all peacefully coexist, but when they start to get in the way of our lives, expect some resistance. Christianity is forced down our throats every time ya turn around! Pro-lifers have made abortion illegal in some areas. Religionists have put the ten commandments in public spaces. Congress, under McCarthyism, inserted the phrase "under God" into our Pledge of Allegiance, and then had "In God We Trust" put on currency. Fundamentalist Protestants and right-wing Catholics try thier hardest to impose their narrow morality on us, resisting women's rights, freedom for religious minorities and unbelievers, gay and lesbian rights, and civil rights for all. Sorry folks, but I can't sit back quietly while this type of thinking is being promoted as good. People accept religion because they have been brainwashed from birth. You don't need to keep believing in Santa forever.

Chappy
10-07-2004, 10:18
I, too, feel strongly about my faith in God, through Jesus Christ. What I don't do is criticize, nor condemn, nor rant and rave against those who disagree with me, as you seem to do with those who disagree with you.

Blue Jay
10-07-2004, 10:53
I, too, feel strongly about my faith in God, through Jesus Christ. What I don't do is criticize, nor condemn, nor rant and rave against those who disagree with me, as you seem to do with those who disagree with you.

That's because no one is forcing Buddhism, Wicca, Islam or any other state sponsored religion down your throat. There are several 501(c)(3) christian corporations that enjoy tax exempt status while supporting clear political objectives. A percentage of every tax dollar we get sucked out of our pockets, supports Christianity.

Also the flash of a female breast on national TV unleased a Christian fury that threatens freedom of speech to say nothing of the obvious misogyny of this extreme cultural reaction to a harmless event. No, we do not have the open antifemale stance of Islam, ours is more insidious.

As the old song lyric said "One man of peace dies and 100 wars began". My biggest problem with Christianity (but not Christ) is the giant loophole in the commandment, Thou shalt not kill. It does not say "unless they might be bad guys, who might send exploding donkeys to get us".

Bloodroot
10-07-2004, 11:23
People accept religion because they have been brainwashed from birth. You don't need to keep believing in Santa forever.
Or do people after years "sin" people merely attatch themselves to religion out of fear? A fear that maybe one day when they die their soul will rest in a "bad place?" For me this seems to be the motive for many religious followers these days. Is that a just reason to become a religious follower?

Skyline
10-07-2004, 12:14
Oh, no! There's a Bible in the shelter! Don't anybody touch it or you'll start a holy war!

So I guess "You don't have to read it" is too simple of an answer here. It's not like someone's standing on the picnic table prostelitizing. It's just another book left for some people to enjoy, and if Nietzsche were left in a shelter, I'd read that, too. Because some people disagree with the ideas espoused in any book is no cause for censorship.



Sal, if those who want to ban other books, movies, TV and radio programming (because their content doesn't measure up to their moralistic views) would adopt your policy above, this world would be a far better, peaceful place.

Just change the channel, don't buy the magazine, don't pay to see the movie. But how dare anyone say you or I can't see it. And if it's "the kids" we're protecting, that's a parental responsibility (or at least a parental option, as some parents WANT their kids to NOT live a sheltered life). But it's not a responsibility that should be imposed upon "society."

steve hiker
10-10-2004, 05:25
Having just finished a Fontana to Hwy 64 section, I'm going to weigh in on this. In no fewer than 3 shelters, there were loud "JESUS SAVES" grafitti messages. I don't remember if these hikers left anything about themselves or the trail, just a loud religious propaganda message.

Unlike the other regular graffiti, this was in HUGE BLOCK LETTERING so you couldn't ignore it. Like a screaming billboard. I don't remember if the hiker(s) who left these messages said anything about themselves, or their trail experience. A real turn-off.

In another shelter, someone had left a pocket New Testiment with the register. I threw it into the firepit.

Now, some of you may remember me defending ordinary graffiti scribblings in shelters. Ordinary, yes. The kind that tell you about a hiker or his trail experience, or his poetic musings, or just his initials and date. ... But this impersonal religious PROPAGANDA is just plain useless and offensive. Just like the political pin someone else left at yet another shelter. (Yes, an actual political button, the kind you'd pin to your lapel. You guess which presidential candidate it was boosting.)

Bottom line, registers and valuable graffiti space in shelters should be reserved for comments about you and the AT. Leave your detergent commercials and political and religious plugs in the maintstream media.

weary
10-10-2004, 08:23
Having just finished a Fontana to Hwy 64 section, I'm going to weigh in on this. In no fewer than 3 shelters, there were loud "JESUS SAVES" grafitti messages. I don't remember if these hikers left anything about themselves or the trail, just a loud religious propaganda message.

Unlike the other regular graffiti, this was in HUGE BLOCK LETTERING so you couldn't ignore it. Like a screaming billboard. I don't remember if the hiker(s) who left these messages said anything about themselves, or their trail experience. A real turn-off.

In another shelter, someone had left a pocket New Testiment with the register. I threw it into the firepit.

Now, some of you may remember me defending ordinary graffiti scribblings in shelters. Ordinary, yes. The kind that tell you about a hiker or his trail experience, or his poetic musings, or just his initials and date. ... But this impersonal religious PROPAGANDA is just plain useless and offensive. Just like the political pin someone else left at yet another shelter. (Yes, an actual political button, the kind you'd pin to your lapel. You guess which presidential candidate it was boosting.)

Bottom line, registers and valuable graffiti space in shelters should be reserved for comments about you and the AT. Leave your detergent commercials and political and religious plugs in the maintstream media.

Within days of the completion of the new shelter on the East Branch of the Pleasant River, someone defaced it with large block letters. I don't remember the message, but MATC notified the AT Ranger at Harpers Ferry.

The perpetrator was traced down, confessed, cleaned the damage and paid a fine.

It's illegal to deface property on the trail, regardless of the size of the printing. But it's an offense that won't be stopped without hikers taking the initiative and reporting offenders.

Weary

Jaybird
10-10-2004, 09:05
Having just finished a Fontana to Hwy 64 section, I'm going to weigh in on this. In no fewer than 3 shelters, there were loud "JESUS SAVES" grafitti messages. I don't remember if these hikers left anything about themselves or the trail, just a loud religious propaganda message.

Unlike the other regular graffiti, this was in HUGE BLOCK LETTERING so you couldn't ignore it. Like a screaming billboard. I don't remember if the hiker(s) who left these messages said anything about themselves, or their trail experience. A real turn-off.

In another shelter, someone had left a pocket New Testiment with the register. I threw it into the firepit...................................etc.,etc .,etc.




sooooooooo, if the letters were smaller, say in a size 2 Times Roman font they would've been okay with you?

Come on....graffitti sucks no matter how small or large!

get down to the basics...you have defaced the property of many.

sign the shelter register...NOT the WALLS!

Skeemer
10-10-2004, 09:19
I'll never undrstand why an "almighty god" who had the power to create the heaven and the earth and could "zap" anyone of us at anytime needs to play this game of testing my faith. What kind of god needs to test his creation's faith, by sitting back while needless suffering occurs to his mortal servants. What kind of god lets those who profess to be his spokesmen molest innocent children? What kind of god allows siamese twins to be born or innocent babies to die of cancer? Why does he need to lure me with the hope of eternal life and threaten me with damnation and hell? Why does he get credit for all the good things and none of the bad...hell, he made us this way, didn't he? I know, I know, it is us doing this to ourselves, but why the big worship game? Is this really a loving, compasionate, caring god?...I think not.

Again, why the big game of faith?...if there really is a God does he really need me to worshiip him when he won't even drop by now and then. As a child I was so naive...I used to say my prayers and go to Sunday school. God never once "returned the call." It is interesting that he selects certain indivduals to chat with, like our President or Jerry Fallwell.

To get to my point, we don't need mortal beings preaching to us or leaving bibles in shelters on the Trail. You can't trust what human beings say or write about religion, it has to be a personal thing between you and your creator...if there is one.

spanky
10-10-2004, 09:56
I am always amazed at the many colorful dialogs posted on this site. To those who "are not religious" I will point out: that your opinions on morality, Christian literature or art, preaching or other such religious things in general- have to each you become YOUR religion. It is a religion based on self. So, if you tie up this message board with all your criticisms, put downs, condenscending remarks and the such- you violate the very principals you set out to prove. While telling one group (Christians) to get off your back- your jumping on theirs! Hmmm, there is a profound english word for this type of heart issue: hypocrisy.

To those who profess to be Christians: I am a true follower of the one who created the Appalachian Trail. He has a name and His name is Jesus Christ. I have NEVER considered myself to be religious but instead the practitioner of what our Lord says is the ONLY religion that He accepts as pure and without fault..."to take care of the widowed and orphaned in their time of need and to keep yourself from being spotted by the things of this world." Remember, salt and light we are and it is shed on those who live in darkness.

One more thing, you ask "what kind of god would cause all the evil, destruction, sickness, cancers and all else that afflicts each person born into this world? It's us. You see, at the very beginning, our ancestors were given the opportunity to do what was good in God's sight and afforded every tool to accomplish His will... but chose to sin against a God that loved them. God had warned them that if they chose right they would have everything but if they chose wrong... they would die- by THEIR own choice. The disobeyed God and what was the result? Death. We are all the children of disobedience. So God sent His own son to take our place in death so that we could have a second chance to chose right from wrong. Christians have chosen to follow God all the way home this time but all others, continue chosing the same way of death their ancestors chose. This is why Christians leave pocket bibles and the such in shelters... to help you understand your need to be saved from the very sins that are leading you to death. Jesus Christ said, "I came to give YOU life and that is life more abundant!"

God doesn't hate you... he loves you more than you will ever love Him. And, you and I don't deserve Him and for sure, can make no demands on the one who created you and the earth you hike on!

By the way, when Pete Farley died on Mt. Madison in '02, it was this message that I shared with that old man all the way from Kitahdin to Madison. And he finally understood... only hours before His death. So, I will scatch this into this message board:

JESUS SAVES!

Spanky
ME-NY '02
NY-PA '03
Canada - Key West, '05

smokymtnsteve
10-10-2004, 10:18
then your god is courtin a feud, kinda liek an ole hillbilly, your daddy wronged us now our family holds it against your grandkids,

you really think that is how it works?

what if the xians are wrong!

The Goddess of the Mtns is VERY upset about about you accepting a blood sacrifice, hoping for this sacrifice to pay for your evil-doings (sins). I had a personal conference with the Goddess friday night and she told me that blood sacrifice upset her and she didn't accept torture and death as acceptable means of salvation, she prefers Peace and Love. The TRUE Goddess just LOVES you into submission....oh how I LOVE the Goddess, she doesn't hold grudges.

spanky
10-10-2004, 10:44
Boink! Boink! Boink! Boink! Boink!

smokymtnsteve
10-10-2004, 10:54
Boink! Boink! Boink! Boink! Boink!

My point exactly, :rolleyes:

give up the torture and death, Goddess does not approve,
SHE prefers Loving and caring for her planet and her children,

Mother Earth will make you strong,
If you give HER Loving care!

Blue Jay
10-11-2004, 08:14
I'll never undrstand why an "almighty god" who had the power to create the heaven and the earth and could "zap" anyone of us at anytime needs to play this game of testing my faith. What kind of god needs to test his creation's faith, by sitting back while needless suffering occurs to his mortal servants. What kind of god lets those who profess to be his spokesmen molest innocent children? What kind of god allows siamese twins to be born or innocent babies to die of cancer? Why does he need to lure me with the hope of eternal life and threaten me with damnation and hell? Why does he get credit for all the good things and none of the bad...hell, he made us this way, didn't he? I know, I know, it is us doing this to ourselves, but why the big worship game? Is this really a loving, compasionate, caring god?...I think not.

Again, why the big game of faith?...if there really is a God does he really need me to worshiip him when he won't even drop by now and then. As a child I was so naive...I used to say my prayers and go to Sunday school. God never once "returned the call." It is interesting that he selects certain indivduals to chat with, like our President or Jerry Fallwell.

To get to my point, we don't need mortal beings preaching to us or leaving bibles in shelters on the Trail. You can't trust what human beings say or write about religion, it has to be a personal thing between you and your creator...if there is one.

Absolutely great post Skeemer (you too Smoky), although I'm sure you're not happy that I say it. The only thing I cannot agree with is using George Bush as an example of a Christian. No Christian in any sense of the word would ever allow the killing of children (something that continues to happen is NO accident) for any of the obvious bogus reasons that he claims. Killing people to bring them to "democracy" or kill them at random then let God sort them out, is as far from Christ as you can get.

smokymtnsteve
10-11-2004, 09:43
I LOVE all the Goddesses ;)

PLEASE STAND FOR THE GOSPEL OF ABBEY!

"This is what you shall do: Be loyal to what you love, Be true to the Earth, and Fight your enemies with passion and laughter"

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

weary
10-11-2004, 09:47
Absolutely great post Skeemer (you too Smoky), although I'm sure you're not happy that I say it. The only thing I cannot agree with is using George Bush as an example of a Christian. No Christian in any sense of the word would ever allow the killing of children (something that continues to happen is NO accident) for any of the obvious bogus reasons that he claims. Killing people to bring them to "democracy" or kill them at random then let God sort them out, is as far from Christ as you can get.

Based on having grown up in a home of Christian believers, having often attended three Sunday Schools every Sunday between the ages of 4 and 14 (Baptist, Methodist and evangelical), and having spent many years in my younger days making an informal study of religion and other philosophies, in my opinion our President is an example of what is wrong with Christians and Christianity as it has been commonly practiced over the centuries, not what is right.

Weary

Skeemer
10-13-2004, 18:37
Spanky wrote:

...you tie up this message board with all your criticisms, put downs, condenscending remarks and the such- you violate the very principals you set out to prove.

I'm sorry but I didn't set out to prove anything. If you read my entry I just said God didn't make any sense to me and I went on to ask a few questions that bothered me about this God of yours. You may not believe this, but I would love to believe in your God...you see, I'm the kind of person that just can't say he believes in something he doesn't or in something because someone else or a book written by someone says its so. All God has to do is talk to me and say, "Skeemer...get your act together or you're gonna fry in hell for eternity...and you'd better love me while you're at it!" But for some reason I can't understand he won't. I'm not gonna listen to other mortals who claim they are all speaking for God. They have no credibility. Again, all I asked is why the big "game of faith...you'd better have faith in me and love me cause Adam & Eve screwed up by taking a bite out of the wrong apple." Sorry, I just don't get it. I'm glad you are able to believe, say a prayer for me in case I'm ****ed up.

The rest of your post just read like a garbled mess...sorry again, you're way over my head.

SmokeyMtnSteve...now your goddess makes some sense and has possibilities...I'd like to hear more about her.

BlueJay...thanks for the comment...you know, I do respect opposing viewpoints when they don't get personal. You kinda let me have it that time you told me "I sold out" just because I had retired from a corporation and you apparently hate all corporations. Lately, you seem to be less "snotty" in your comments. Keep it up and I'll take you off my "**** list." :)

Crash! Bang!
10-13-2004, 23:09
bottom line, hikers go into the woods to escape the bullshoot of society and its institutions, including religion. the wilds are our chapels, so will all you would-be evangelists please give it a rest? try concentrating more on living how jesus lived, and less on trying to earn spiritual brownie points. really, y'all are really irritating, like a swarm of vacuum-cleaner salesmen having a competition to sell the most. just knockit off!

Chappy
10-14-2004, 07:18
bottom line, hikers go into the woods to escape the bullshoot of society and its institutions, including religion. the wilds are our chapels, so will all you would-be evangelists please give it a rest? try concentrating more on living how jesus lived, and less on trying to earn spiritual brownie points. really, y'all are really irritating, like a swarm of vacuum-cleaner salesmen having a competition to sell the most. just knockit off!

Mr. C!B!,
You don't have to read the thread. Ever heard of free speech? The thread very clearly identifies itself as being about religion on the AT. If it upsets you so much just don't open the thread.

Blue Jay
10-14-2004, 08:01
BlueJay...thanks for the comment...you know, I do respect opposing viewpoints when they don't get personal. You kinda let me have it that time you told me "I sold out" just because I had retired from a corporation and you apparently hate all corporations. Lately, you seem to be less "snotty" in your comments. Keep it up and I'll take you off my "**** list." :)

In America, corporations are God, immortal and subject to no laws. Skeemer, I don't remember my actually using the phrase "sold out", but I may have. If I did, it takes one to know one as I have worked for many corporations. I don't hate all of them, just the 99% who exploit the fact that they are completely above the law. The relatively small fines they occasionally have to pay mean nothing to them and they continue to attack us. They kill more workers every year by being too cheap to follow safety laws in America alone, than all the people flying planes into buildings and in fact are the true terrorists. They just have the best spin doctors and get us to die in their wars. This God, the most worshiped in America, Corporatizm must be overthrown and democracy restored to America. Sure, and the next Pope will be female.

smokymtnsteve
10-14-2004, 08:56
the Goddess of the Mtns says Attraction NOT Promotion.

PLEASE STAND FOR THE GOSPEL OF ABBEY!

"The missionaries go forth to Christianize the savages--as if the savages weren't dangerous enough already."

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

Magic City
10-14-2004, 09:29
Mr. C!B!,
The thread very clearly identifies itself as being about religion on the AT. If it upsets you so much just don't open the thread.
I think that some people are bothered by the very fact that anyone is discussing religion. Convinced that freedom of speech should not apply to Christians, they feel compelled to participate.

smokymtnsteve
10-14-2004, 09:50
No one has said that Xians shouldn't have freedom of speech, just that EVERYONE should leave thier religious message in town,,you don't see other religions leaving evangelizing messages/materials in shelters, just xians. :rolleyes:

of course I have been known to leave Edward Abbey books in shelters, but the trail Goddesses of the Mtns forgives me. ;)

Crash! Bang!
10-14-2004, 10:14
chappy and magic city, i was not talking about this thread, i was talking about the placing of religious propaganda in shelters. im sick christianity being shoved down my throat. lets be honest, many christians wont be satisfied until theyve drowned out all other points of view. i find it freaking hilarious that christians champion the first amendment when historically, theyve been the worst violators of the very right that they want to protect for themselves. do christians have the right to place their superstitiouns everywhere? of course they do. if there was a law preventing it, i would be very disturbed indeed. should they? no. if you want to stick a bible in, and i dont mean a stack of bibles, go right ahead, but get rid of the pamphlets. youre just wasting trees.

i know many will think im over-reacting. but just let someone start a campaign to put pamphlets trying to convert ppl to atheism or satanism or bill clintonism in all shelters and in the schools and tacked to every bulletin board and telephone pole and just watch how fast the religous right moves to strike it down. they dont believe in freedom of speech at all, except for themselves.
end rant

Lone Wolf
10-14-2004, 10:18
It's a waste of trees to build shelters. They suck. The fire pits suck. The ground around them suck. LNT my ass! So what's a Bible or some pamphlets here and there.

smokymtnsteve
10-14-2004, 10:21
maybe we can start having a few bahgavad-gitas and BACK TO GODHEAD comic books in shelters too. HARE KRSNA!

EASY JOURNEYS TO OTHER PLANETS!

HARIBOL!

Skeemer
10-14-2004, 10:22
I'm afraid, as many of my religious friends will agree, I've been spending too much time on Whiteblaze lately...but it is kinda fun. Warning: I'm getting off topic but have to respond:

BlueJay...Wow! I don't know where you worked, but the factories I worked at were regulated big time. Anytime, any employee wanted they called, and even filed anonymous charges with the Occupational Safety & Health Administration. Unions filed numerous health & safety complaints (most if not all were political and unfounded) and could strike over them anytime they choseto do so. Employees could claim any, and I mean ANY disability was caused by their employer and the State of Ohio would allow their workers comp claim. Granted, some people running our corporations are overpaid, but most are just human beings like you or me. I think it's grossly unfair to compare them to terrorists for crissakes! I don't know what corporate America did to you to make you feel this way, but it must have been horrible. I can tell you from first hand experience that good companies will take care of their workers...it only makes sense...happy workers do better work, hence better profits and returns to the owners, which BTW many of whom are average Joes like you and me. One last thought here, I remember once where I worked when some of the water in a waste holding pond got away and into a neighboring stream. You would have thought the factory was on fire. They called in clean up specialist and spent tens of thousands cleaning it up...one guy almost lost his job over it. They do take this stuff seriously. Furthermore, executives can go to jail for violating health and safety laws. I do think I'm getting to understand you better...you're one of the few out there that is opposed to capitalism and the free enterprise system...just answer one question (and I think I asked you this before) what would you replace it with?

Back on topic, sort of...Spanky, one other thing I wish I would have said in my response to you: I don't understand why you and most Christians have to think that anyone who doesn't support your Christian beliefs is out for a fight. Some of us may actually be interested in hearing what the other side has to say...as opposed to promoting or proving anything...get it? I guess it's too hard for you guys to accept that there are many people out there questioning your religious beliefs and of the opinion that religious materials do not have a place on the AT (there, I finally got to it.) I hope that also answer Magic City's dig too.

Oh, and Smokymtnsteve, thanks for trying to "keep us on track."

Chappy
10-14-2004, 10:31
chappy and magic city, i was not talking about this thread, i was talking about the placing of religious propaganda in shelters. im sick christianity being shoved down my throat. lets be honest, many christians wont be satisfied until theyve drowned out all other points of view. i find it freaking hilarious that christians champion the first amendment when historically, theyve been the worst violators of the very right that they want to protect for themselves. do christians have the right to place their superstitiouns everywhere? of course they do. if there was a law preventing it, i would be very disturbed indeed. should they? no. if you want to stick a bible in, and i dont mean a stack of bibles, go right ahead, but get rid of the pamphlets. youre just wasting trees.

i know many will think im over-reacting. but just let someone start a campaign to put pamphlets trying to convert ppl to atheism or satanism or bill clintonism in all shelters and in the schools and tacked to every bulletin board and telephone pole and just watch how fast the religous right moves to strike it down. they dont believe in freedom of speech at all, except for themselves.
end rant
Please read your original post. At no time did you mention pamphlets or literature. You clearly were talking about stifling speech. And yes, you are over-reacting.

Chappy
10-14-2004, 10:32
It's a waste of trees to build shelters. They suck. The fire pits suck. The ground around them suck. LNT my ass! So what's a Bible or some pamphlets here and there.
As usual, you're right.

Dances with Mice
10-14-2004, 10:35
It's a waste of trees to build shelters. They suck. The fire pits suck. The ground around them suck. LNT my ass! So what's a Bible or some pamphlets here and there.

I like shelters. The more people that stay in them, the more campsite choices I have. Yea for shelters!

On topic: I wish I had a picture of the ancient sign over the door of the Blood Mtn Shelter (and there's a shelter which really sucks). The sign says something like "Volunteers must pack out everything left at this shelter. Pack it in, Pack it out!" That signs says it all.

Crap left at shelters must be carried out by somebody. And it may have been a nice new Holy book when it was left with the best of intentions, but after the mice have taken some for nests and the mildew has started to spot the pages and the binding glue is peeling, it's just another piece of crap that somebody else has to carry out. They don't burn well and the vinyl cover of those cheap Gideon pocket bibles shouldn't be burnt at all, I've fished them out of fire rings too.

Cheap Gideons aren't as bad as some things that get left at shelters, but they still add weight to the garbage bag.

smokymtnsteve
10-14-2004, 10:41
PLEASE STAND FOR THE GOSPEL OF ABBEY!

"Fantastic doctrines (like Christianity or Islam) require unanimity of belief. One dissenter casts doubt on the creed of millions."

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

Skeemer
10-14-2004, 10:41
Chappy you're wrong, Lone Wolf is not right on this one...the shelters are great, it's the slobs trashing them that are wrong. Many a hiker, including myself has spent nights in them in good company and out of the weather. And Danceswithmice said it better than I could.

Great last post Crash!Bang you're ahead on debating points in my book.

Chappy
10-14-2004, 10:49
Chappy you're wrong, Lone Wolf is not right on this one...the shelters are great, it's the slobs trashing them that are wrong. Many a hiker, including myself has spent nights in them in good company and out of the weather. And Danceswithmice said it better than I could.

Great last post Crash!Bang you're ahead on debating points in my book.
How could he be ahead on debating points? He changed directions in his second post. Must be a Kerry supporter! :)

Blue Jay
10-14-2004, 10:50
Furthermore, executives can go to jail for violating health and safety laws. I do think I'm getting to understand you better...you're one of the few out there that is opposed to capitalism and the free enterprise system...just answer one question (and I think I asked you this before) what would you replace it with?

I am not in any way opposed to capitalism of free enterprise, in fact I want it brought back. What I am opposed to is Corporate Fudalism. Individuals who break the law can be punished, corporations cannot. Yes, executives CAN go to jail for violating health and safety laws. There is no way that will ever happen, name one. They get a fine, that has already been budgeted into their system. It's merely part of their operating cost.
The executive branch of the US government is completely bought and paid for. One thing Bush and Kerry clearly agree on is to let corporations remain lawless. They are both owned by different sets of corporations.

I only ask for a slight change in the current "free enterprise" system and one that already exists for individuals. You let the Supreme Court rule each year which corporation is convicted of braking the most legal statutes of any type, safety, environmental, fiscal, whatever. That corporation would be dissolved, the assets distributed to the stock holders and the CEO and board of directors deported to the country of their choice with citizenship revoked. The death penalty in this case would be a massive deterrent. You would see major improvements to the democratic system of the United States. No more corporate fudalism, free enterprise would rule again.

Crash! Bang!
10-14-2004, 10:54
i went back and re-read my original post and i just dont see how you got that it was directed at this thread and not at the leavers of literature. theres really no point in debating with those who willfully miss the point. i get enough of that from blue jay.

Crash! Bang!
10-14-2004, 11:00
"It's a waste of trees to build shelters. They suck"
i wont argue with that. but i wouldnt be surprised if the amount of wood it takes to to make all the proseletyzing pamphlets in the world is not that far from the wood it takes to build all the trail shelters

Lone Wolf
10-14-2004, 11:01
Shelters are for scardy cats. :D

smokymtnsteve
10-14-2004, 11:03
Shelters are for scardy cats. :D

and shelter RATS! :D

steve hiker
10-14-2004, 11:13
I threw a New Testiment in the fire ring at Cold Spring Shelter last week. Does that make me a saint or a sinner?

(When bored on a Thursday morning, stir up the religion squabble. :D )

smokymtnsteve
10-14-2004, 11:15
I threw a New Testiment in the fire ring at Cold Spring Shelter last week. Does that make me a saint or a sinner?

(When bored on a Thursday morning, stir up the religion squabble. :D )


Nethier,

but it did make the shelter cleaner.

btw,was thier fire in the fire ring and did the trash burn ,,or did you just leave unburned trash in the fire ring?,,,cause at that point you would be a SINNER!

shades of blue
10-14-2004, 11:35
There seems to be a lot of hatred here on both sides. As for the burning of the bible....I don't agree with burning any books (books are a sacred thing to me). Steve does that make you evil? No, but did you burn the bible because of a hatred of Christiananity, or are you a "true believer" Of LNT. Personally, I believe the shelters are already beyond LNT. The main thing is to what level do you take it? There are boxes in shelters where registers are sometimes found. Many registers are in ziplocks and that protects paper some. If someone was determined to leave magazines, religious holy books, that is how it should be done.

I don't like tracts, I also don't want someone preaching at me while I'm in the woods. Having said that, I won't burn a journal entry I disagree with, or burn someone's Koran, or Torah, or Bible. If it isn't blatant, I ignore it. I won't even burn the "Gospel of Abby". I think that moderation and common sense should rule, not hatred of other people's beliefs. Steve...would you burn an American flag if it was hanging in a shelter? Personally, I wouldn't want to see flags on shelters, but I would pack it out...I wouldn't burn it.
My .02

Crash! Bang!
10-14-2004, 14:11
a very sensible post, shades. i dont hate christians, i just hate that some of them dont know when to quit evangelizing.

smokymtnsteve
10-14-2004, 14:16
you most likely wouldn't get a chance to burn the Gospel of ABBEY,
those Abbey books I leave in shelters seem to disappear into folk's packs very quickly. they don't stay laying around.

The Solemates
10-14-2004, 14:44
I commend Hercules for her efforts. That took a while to place all of those books in the shelters. And if youve never read it, I encourage you too.

Lint
10-31-2004, 20:06
I've been rolling my own cigarettes for years, and have never even used a page from a bible when I ran out of rolling papers. To think of all the lost opportunities I had on my hike! Instead of just packing those bibles out to the town trash can I could of been smoking tobacco in them!

smokymtnsteve
10-31-2004, 22:09
If you have never read Edward Abbey or John Steinbeck,, I encourage you too.

magic_game03
10-31-2004, 23:30
It seems that religion is above all standards. To all you MORONS out there I hope one day you will learn to use your religion to benefit mankind and not your greedy little manipulative desires (especially the ďSolematesĒ who love to stand behind the mask of religion and spout hellfire, you need to take a good look in the mirror. Yea Iíve been quiet lately but Iíve noticed youíve been spouting off at the mouth like a broken faucet. Seems as if one long distance section hike is enough to make you an oracle )

1. Itís illegal (commonly know as littering)
2. Itís adverse to hiker ethics (LNT)
3. And it adverse to common morals (do unto others as you expect done to you)


*LEGAL
In simple form; we the people select the government, who make the laws, who gave rights of maintenance to the ATC, who sectioned it out to trail clubs, who give maintenance duties to local care takers and maintainers. If you donít work for a government agency with jurisdiction or have AT related maintainer duties in this area of trail you donít have right to just leave stuff on public property. Thatís call littering! It doesnít matter if you think it has value or not.

*Ethical
Hiker ethics demand you self regulate LNT behavior. This goes beyond hiker ethics; this is the ethics of any environmentalist!

*Moral
The ďSolematesĒ approve of the book I was discarding, named ďthe purpose driven life.Ē Let me phrase how the inside jacket cover reads:

ďIf you have not found Christ the lord your life is empty and without purpose!Ē

HOW DARE YOU TELL ME I AM EMPTY AND WITHOUT PURPOSE because I donít cower in the shadow of YOUR deity. You are the hollow shell using your own lordís name in vain to spite others. PS. Thanks for all those nasty grams to my online trail journal you reflect your makers intentions well. I am also guessing you donít think a book like this is offensive to Jews, Muslims, Hindus, or any of the worlds other religions that donít believe Christ is at the center of all religious faith.


The moral of this post; go ahead and violate pubic law, hiker ethics, a moral civil code and leave whatever it is you think may be cool or valuable all along the trail so all the volunteer maintainers get feed up with having to pack your crap out and quit. Hell, Iím not going to call the cops on you, I may thru the AT again but Iím moving on to other places, you just go ahead and trash the place. Man it sure will be a terrible day when the entire trail looks like the Governor Clement Shelter.

Lone Wolf
11-01-2004, 06:49
Tear all the shelters down. Problem all gone.

The Solemates
11-01-2004, 10:40
Once again, Magic has written a nasty message directed towards us for a reason that we cannot seem to understand. We dont hide behind our religion, we just are happy to be Christians, like many millions of others around the world and here on this website.

For the record, we have never placed anything in a wilderness shelter, so I'm not sure why you are mad at us. We believe in LNT ethics. About the books that Hercules placed in only a handful of shelters, its just a book. If you dont like it, move on. I dont see you complaining about the Tom Clancy (or pick your author) novels that hikers place in shelters, just so someone else can pick it up to read. And what about the shelter logs? Are they "litter" also?

We did not tell you that you are empty. Thats what the book says. But for the record, we do believe that you cannot live up to your potential unless you have Christ in your life. Take it or leave it. Make fun or respect.

Concerning our entry into your guest book on trailjournals, we simply wanted to give an explanation for our friend's progress. There was no need for the way you spoke about him. And to be honest, there is no need for the way you speak about us. We do not use God to judge anyone, because He judges His own. We are not the judge, but we do have an opinion about things, and last time I checked, it was okay to express your opinion here in America.

We are sorry you get so riled up about things like this, but I guess I had to respond to get in our 2 cents...

MOWGLI
11-01-2004, 11:33
1. Itís illegal (commonly know as littering)
2. Itís adverse to hiker ethics (LNT)
3. And it adverse to common morals (do unto others as you expect done to you)


Interesting post from a guy who "tagged" some shelters in the Smokies. Next time you hike Magic, try leaving the "Magic Marker" at home.

Lone Wolf
11-01-2004, 11:34
The world is full of hypocritical Aholes. :)

The Solemates
11-01-2004, 11:48
Now that you mentioned it, I do remember seeing several of his signatures in the shelters and on many "mailbox" journals in NJ, NY, and ME, if not other places as well.

magic_game03
11-01-2004, 12:58
FIRST: LNT
To me, the difference between a book, batteries, dirty underwear, candle nubs, duct tape, trail magic, or any other tangible item does not matter. I like trail magic but I rather have a natural forest over a junk box any day. I like money but it does not justify my right to rob a bank, likewise I like trail magic but not more than I like to maintain LNT ethics.

SECOND: what about registers and else?
Why do people refuse to understand that a CARE TAKER is the person we entrust with the responsibility to maintain a shelter. As I stated in a previous post, we give the rights to the government, who passes them to the ATC, who passes it out to local trail groups and then on to local caretakers. THEY ARE ENDOWED WITH THE RESPONSIBILITY of upkeep in these areas. They have the right to place a broom, a register, and anything else they deem fit inside that shelter. Some people use examples of a few maintainers to try to justify their side of this argument often using the NJ shelters that often have loads of magazines and other goodies in them (ps. Many thanks to desperado and NJ wingnut and all the other awesome NJ caretakers and maintainers, you guys/gals rock the trail) THATíS BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO PLACE THIS MATERIAL IN THEIR SHELTER, YOU ON THE OTHER HAND DO NOT! Itís just that simple, when you volunteer your precious hours to clean and maintain the trail for a few years than maybe one day the ATC or local trail group may grant you permission to do as you see fit to maintain a shelter area, else itís littering if you leave something on public land (doesnít matter if it has a value or not!)

THIRD: HERCULES was in the wrong!
First, it was not just a few books Hercules left behind, it was over 40 books!( you only saw a few because I made it a mission to remove those books whenever I came across one) On the inside cover was a list of all the shelters Hercules was starting this library in. next, Hercules was not leaving behind books after finishing them on a thru hike, Hercules was not even hiking, he/she was DRIVING to road crossing and dropping off these books at shelters. Just what the AT really needs, people not hiking but driving to shelters to unload crap. As I stated in a previous post, these books were a direct insult to me and I believe anyone else who was not fully enveloped in the Christians way of life. It seems as if everyone wants to make this book into the ďholy bibleĒ but no matter how you twist my words it was not. More importantly, this is America and everyone has the right to equality, if you justify your ďoneĒ book as righteous then imagine the flip side; imagine all the disgusting books you would rather not see at a shelter, then tell me why in America does your choice have more value than mine (ďhell, I choose a good porno with lots of pics and stories with very young legal teens, also a little N.A.M.B.L.A. material, maybe a little leftist anti-war material about how all WVets are all child murders and how Islam is the only real religion and all Anglos should dieĒ/ PS. This are just examples of common heated topics, not my true opinions) do you see how this can be a bad thing?

FOURTH: Our negative bickering ( Solemates )
I guess the negativity began with my first impression of you two after the nasty gram you sent me because of my remarks to OT. Iím a big man and itís hard to be humble, So after some thought I realized how I offended OT and decided to do the right thing. I made a personal apology, a public online apology, and numerous apologies in follow up registers to OT. I went way out of my way to make it clear that I was in the wrong to say the things I said. It was after this that OT and I were communicating back and forth that I still received numerous nasty grams, some from you. So many people live in a Jerry Springer world that they wanted something to talk about so people continued to cause friction in the AT community, not knowing OT and I were communicating in a positive manor on a weekly basis. Anyway, maybe we can one day put are difference behind us to make the world a better place.

magic_game03
11-01-2004, 13:36
Your right about me tagging those shelters and leaving my name. Iím at a dilemma as to the validity of graffiti on man made structures as a part of LNT ethics. So much has been said on both sides of the topic of Graffiti on White Blaze. In my defense I will state that my Graffiti usually consist of my name and logo that can be read from one of the bunk positions and NOT in large sprawling letters or from the outside or in some highlighted fashion. I will go one further than just graffiti, I left a partial fuel canister at Mt. Algo lean-to this year and ever since then it has been bugging me. I left it there because I thought it would be useful to someone else, but after a mental tug-of-war I realized I should not have done that. Most hikers (for example myself in earlier times) would say ďdonít worry magic, somebody can and will use that fuel canister, itís a good thing.Ē But when I justify leaving ďtrail magicĒ I open Pandoraís box to all that believe they have something useful to leave behind.

Do I think itís ok to graffiti? Well, no
Do I think itís wrong to graffiti? Well, maybe not
Do I think itís wrong to graffiti on anything besides processed materials on a man made structure? Absolutely, it violates LNT

Iím just not sure where I stand on graffiti, especially on black marker on brown wood that could be covered with the palm of one hand on the inside bunk area of a shelter. It probably is counter productive to LNT ethics and I assure you I am currently in mental review of it.

Ps. Itís funny how something seems so simple until it is examined. Old graffiti is considered an artifact, new graffiti is considered eye pollution, and yet graffiti is so in cultured into our species that it has been passed down through hundreds of generations without failure.

The Solemates
11-01-2004, 13:43
It was after this that OT and I were communicating back and forth that I still received numerous nasty grams, some from you.

To my knowledge, after the shelter entry and trailjournals entry, we never made any type of comment anywhere (shelter logs, online, anywhere) concerning the OT situation. Those were the only 2 instances. We made the intial remarks and then were through with it. Anything else was not from us.

MOWGLI
11-01-2004, 13:58
Your right about me tagging those shelters and leaving my name. Iím at a dilemma as to the validity of graffiti on man made structures as a part of LNT ethics.

I wonder how the shelter maintainers in NJ (or any other state) feel about your grafitti? I don't know for certain, but I've got a pretty good idea.

My guess is that they frown on grafitti much more than someone who leaves a book or magazine in a shelter. Books and magazines can easily be carried out. Grafitti has to be sanded or painted over, and its very presence encourages others to do the same.

Dances with Mice
11-01-2004, 14:22
Iím at a dilemma as to the validity of graffiti on man made structures as a part of LNT ethics. .... It probably is counter productive to LNT ethics and I assure you I am currently in mental review of it.

Ps. Itís funny how something seems so simple until it is examined. Old graffiti is considered an artifact, new graffiti is considered eye pollution, and yet graffiti is so in cultured into our species that it has been passed down through hundreds of generations without failure.

There should be no dilemma. You have violated two of the LNT principles. You did not LEAVE WHAT YOU FOUND, you were not BEING CONSIDERATE OF OTHER VISITORS (caps aren't shouting, they emphasize 2 of the 7 LNT principles, word for word.)

Backcountry ethics have changed over the years. Candle marks in caves, for example, were made in a different time by explorers following different ethics. Same with the initials and names pecked into the stone on Blood Mtn. No one criticizes the Lewis & Clark Expedition for hunting deer, elk, buffalo, and grizzlies during their trip, for carving their marks in trees along the way, or for shooting an armed horse thief. But those practices wouldn't just be considered unethical today, they would be illegal. Even Audobon shot songbirds but that was then and this is now. Doing something because someone else did it 100, or 1000, years ago isn't justifiable, it's just a very poor excuse.

And as much as I agree with Lone Wolf's feelings about shelters, the shelters are an integral part of LNT practice - CAMP ON DURABLE SURFACES. The brooms and the registers are part of the shelters. Extraneous reading material, no matter how well intentioned, whether it's printed on paper or scribbled on the walls, is not.

A-Train
11-01-2004, 14:51
Look I'm the last person that would want a bible in a shelter. I think leaving any reading material is debatable whether or not it upsets the ethics of LNT. I'm not sure how I feel about it, since the act of leaving something is littering, and you are trusting that somenoe else is going to pack it out eventually. If everyone left a beer can at shelters, the place would be nasty. At the same token, I've personally left novels for hikers I knew were behind me and had interest in reading them. Like I said, I still haven't decided whether I believe this is right or wrong.

To Magic: I'm glad you're realizing you may have been wrong. It does seem a bit ridiculous to slam someone for leaving a bible in a shelter and then write your name on shelters. Sorry but I don't buy your argument about old writings being sacred, but modern graffiti being frowned upon. In prehistoric days this was the way to comunicate and teach and express oneself. That is why their are registers in every shelter-to communicate and express ourselves. If everyone went along and tagged their name, the shelters would be disgusting and total eyesores. Fortunately for you, you haven't had the opportunity to see how thru-hikers actions affect the "pack" of hikers since in both of the last 2 years you've been virtunally in front of 95% of the thru-hikers. Maybe you just haven't realized what the actions of some can do to impact the hikes of many others. Think about it

magic_game03
11-01-2004, 14:55
Mog & DwM

you two have a very pious positions on right and wrong, I'm sure neither of you has done something which later you may have reconsidered. Or maybe you could back it up with some indepth thought about the subject. In fact the best place for this is in a post that focuses on "graffiti", why don't you two type that into your white blaze search engine and see what others have to say about "graffiti." It's a hot topic and not everyone agrees with your statements.

Also, I do stand before all and fully admit my shortcummings, I wonder if others have the nads to do the same?

finally, I do more trail maintence in a 35 mile a day pace than 99% of long distance hikers do on an 8 mile a day pace. if either of you have any bad mouthing of me to do maybe you should bring up all the greatness you bring to the trail.

Ps. please do visit those post topics on "graffiti" and get the general concensus of the entire community before you define me. and Mog, your small mindedness has allowed too much air to pass through the large opening in the front of your head. why don't you go talk to those NJ (or any other) care takers and see what they really have to say about me. quite a few of them know me first hand. oh, wait you probably don't know any of them, well e-mail me if you need an entire NJ list.

Ps. I'm still not saying graffiti is ok, just that it makes you twist up your mind trying to justify or denounce it's validity as part on LNT. question: should stoves be banned? they create burn marks all over the shelter. How about tarps being strung about the shelter? they are not perminate but unsightly for months on end in the cold weather. As i said, a topic on "graffiti" is more indepth than can be considered in this post. it needs and HAS it's own postings here on White Blaze

A-Train
ps. I'm not trying to justify my past actions. I only stated that info about history because i thought it was interesting. as was stated in my post, I don't have a fully formed opinion of "graffiti" so I can't vouche for right or wrong. I can only say I did it then and now I ponder its significence.

MOG
ps. you edited your post I see. you came at me strong and when i responded you stepped back a bit. how nice it is to see you try to pull a quick one on me and put me in the "bad light." oh well

MOWGLI
11-01-2004, 15:09
....and Mog, your small mindedness has allowed too much air to pass through the large opening in the front of your head. why don't you go talk to those NJ (or any other) care takers and see what they really have to say about me. quite a few of them know me first hand. oh, wait you probably don't know any of them, well e-mail me if you need an entire NJ list.

Magic, I did not attack you in any way. I just pointed out a contradiction between your words and your deeds, and that tagging shelters was not something to be rationalized or trivialized. I guess you were feeling a little defensive when you chose to attack me (above).

FWIW, I lived about 15 minutes from the Pochuck Shelter from 1988 - 2003, so I really don't need to be taught anything about the shelters in NJ, NY or elsewhere. I was hiking the Bearfort Ridge back in the late 60s and all through the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

If you think I'm wrong about the difference between grafitti and leaving literature in a shelter (both acts are wrong) lets please explain that here, and refrain from your personal attacks.

In the meantime, I stand by my words.

MOWGLI
11-01-2004, 15:30
MOG
ps. you edited your post I see. you came at me strong and when i responded you stepped back a bit. how nice it is to see you try to pull a quick one on me and put me in the "bad light." oh well

What are you talking about? Stepped back? You ought to make an effort to get that ego of yours under control.

It is NOT all about YOU, even if Desperado makes you feel that way.

Dances with Mice
11-01-2004, 16:34
Mog & DwM

Ps. please do visit those post topics on "graffiti" and get the general concensus of the entire community before you define me.
That's a fair request. Searching on "Graffiti" yields 8 hits, 2 of these are in photo albums. Of the remaining 6, 4 mention it only in passing, not in a debate. Of the last 2, one hit was for this thread, the other was on a thread titled "Religious Activities", decrying that someone wrote "Jesus Saves" in block letters in shelters. One of the photos is of a 'Lone Wolf' tag in a shelter, btw.

Searching on the "Graffitti" spelling variation yields 4 more hits. 1 mention in passing, 2 hits on this thread, 1 more hit on "Religious Activities".

What did I do wrong? I didn't find this to be a hot topic of debate.


Ps. I'm still not saying graffiti is ok, just that it makes you twist up your mind trying to justify or denounce it's validity as part on LNT. question: should stoves be banned? they create burn marks all over the shelter. How about tarps being strung about the shelter? they are not perminate but unsightly for months on end in the cold weather.
The use of stoves such that burn marks are left does violate LNT, not the stove. Magic Markers need not be banned just because a few use them for defacing property, right? When I first used my alcohol stove I left a round mark on a picnic table. I was embarrassed and resolved not to do that again. That was an accident caused by unfamiliarity with the equipment, it was unintentional.

If someone carried a tarp to a shelter but didn't plan to carry it out then their action was a violation of LNT.

I do admire that you've stepped up to the plate and admitted to having second thoughts about your actions. But what's done is done. To me, it is more important to understand what would it take to convince you not to repeat this in the future. Which word of "Leave No Trace" enables any justification for graffiti? Which of the 7 principles of LNT support it?

magic_game03
11-01-2004, 16:46
Mog

LOL, very eloquent comeback. Sharp as a dagger, those last 8 words. I hope you didn't have to burn a bridge to use them (your from NJ, right?). In defense and out of respect for Desperado, it's the other way around. Though our paths have never crossed, I assume you have read the guest log of my journal to come across such information; Desperado was only thanking me for kind words that I left. I guess for those who do not know you have to put it into perspective. Desperado was one of dozen or so shelter caretakers that loves what they do so much that they just canít wait for the big hiker season to began so they rev up well in advance of season. I cannot begin to speak of his volunteer efforts across multiple shelters over many miles. This effort was in no way premature, because there are many hikers out and about before the main body of thru hikers appear. I will repeat how I spoke of Desperado, ď if there were a poll for best overall care taker along the AT my vote would go to Desperado.Ē That being said, Iíve never met Desperado we may be complete opposites. So many caretakers probably have a vote coming to them and rightfully so. D is not paying homage to me because Iím great, Iím paying homage to him because heís great.

Ps. donít worry; I can make myself feel great all by myself (the wonders of an opposable thumb)

Ridge
11-01-2004, 20:26
If people would leave the same amout of litter and graffiti on the trail and in the shelters as they do in their own yards we would have something very nice. I'm in Trail Maintenance and would like to be OUT of a job!

Bloodroot
11-02-2004, 08:01
If people would leave the same amout of litter and graffiti on the trail and in the shelters as they do in their own yards we would have something very nice. I'm in Trail Maintenance and would like to be OUT of a job!
Now I wouldn't recommend that to some people. I have seen some trophy yards out there! If that were the case you could probably get a salary position as a Trail Maintainer! :D

Lint
11-02-2004, 16:07
The Purpose Driven Life...wow what a great read. I read alot of that book, since it was in so many shelters, and decided the purpose of my life was to inscribe "NO GODS-NO MASTERS" with a pen on each one I came across. So I put graffitti on shelter litter!

Oh man, I still remember the baptist pamphlet I saw at The Priest shelter. It said "Even children understand god" to which someone wrote below it "they're used to being lied to!" Now that was funny.

grandview
11-09-2004, 00:25
To everyone who doesn;t want religious messages left in shelters: why have you not said the same thing about the registers?

(A-Train: my copy of Into the Wild was left by WalkOn who was up front near you at somepoint I think)
Let's tear down all the shelters and plant trees....a shelter is a sign of human impact....so's the trail itself if you want to open that can of worms...get rid of those environment damaging registers too...and trail signs....scrap off every billion or so white blazes while your at it.

or

use a little common sense....if there's a library of bibles, korans, or national geographics in there, you might need to cart of few away....otherwise, read it if you want to...ignore it if you don't.

grandview
11-09-2004, 00:32
that wasn't directed at you moon monster...just commenting on that thought about registers....

zephyr1034
11-09-2004, 00:54
Well it seems we have two pages of personal opinions and the citing of various "policies," and I'm wondering if the ATC actually does have any "official" policy about leaving religious materials in shelters. I remember seeing a religious group in Washington's Reagan National Airport several years ago, and there was a sign nearby, posted by airport officials I suppose, that the group was not "sponsored" by the airport but were exercising their rights of free speech. Does that apply to national parks as well? If so, what are the limits, and who oversees the activity? Personally, I don't believe we have a situation that is anywhere near being out of hand along the AT, and in fact it might be better if no "national" standard is brought to bear (pun unintentional) on the situation.
I have seen a sign at the Sugarlands Visitors Center (GSMNP) that says people are allowed to exercise their First Amendment rights in the parking lot and the sidewalk in front of the building.

U-BOLT
11-09-2004, 03:07
use a little common sense....if there's a library of bibles, korans, or national geographics in there, you might need to cart of few away....otherwise, read it if you want to...ignore it if you don't.
Ever run out of arsewipe?

grandview
11-09-2004, 03:22
~~~~~~~~~~~

Magic City
11-09-2004, 16:26
No one has said that Xians shouldn't have freedom of speech, just that EVERYONE should leave thier religious message in townSo our freedom of speech does not apply to the AT. What other topics are disallowed on the trail? And who gets to decide? Why?

When the people who are arguing against Bibles and other Christian literature in shelters advocate or otherwise excuse the leaving of other literature in the same shelters, that shows a bias that sadly typifies the left.

smokymtnsteve
11-09-2004, 16:32
I Love talking religion on the trail... when some Xian opens up the religious discucssion ( i never bring it up first) I am more than happy to join in, most of the time they feel very uncomfortable after the discussion begins and wished they had left thier religious message in town ,,but the choice is thiers.


I have admitted my "sin" of leaving ed abbey books...but the goddess has already forgiven me..and who R U calling a Liberal,,,I'm a conservative.

Ridge
11-10-2004, 09:54
...has anyone seen ATC applications or LNT forms/literature in a church?

Skeemer
11-10-2004, 10:18
Magic City wrote in a response to a comment by smokymtnsteve:

So our freedom of speech does not apply to the AT...When the people who are arguing against Bibles and other Christian literature in shelters advocate or otherwise excuse the leaving of other literature in the same shelters, that shows a bias that sadly typifies the left.

How can you call anyone opposed to leaving this crap in a shelter "leftest"?" It's like the press is now trying to call Bush's victory "an evangelical revolution" and is crediting the christian right for his win. Did you ever consider the fact that maybe, just maybe, there are other factors besides one's faith that resulted in Bush's slim victory? Bush won Ohio (where I live and vote) by a mere 100,000 votes. I overlooked Bush's religious fanaticism because I could not vote for Kerry for other reasons which we don't need to get into here...the point is, if the policy is "leave no trace" or don't leave any materials, including religious propaganda, that's what we need to follow, whether it offends the religious right or not.

I realize that the writer directed his comments to the hypocrites and I give him credit in that the rules should apply evenly to all...bibles, porn mags, NY Times, etc. My guess is some were just "jabbing" the bible toters.

I don't agree that "leave no trace" in shelters is a violation of one's freedom of speech.

Lint
11-11-2004, 23:03
My girlfriend just showed me this, and I felt I should share. Check out www.f@ckthesouth.com (http://www.f@ckthesouth.com) but replace the @ with the letter u.
Before you southerners git yer undies all rustled up, I want ya to know almost every southerner I met was AWESOME!!! This site is only directed to the wacko fundamentalists who give this area the "bible belt" name. Fer christ's sake, I play the banjo too!

steve hiker
11-11-2004, 23:15
My girlfriend just showed me this, and I felt I should share. Check out www.f@ckthesouth.com (http://www.f@ckthesouth.com/) but replace the @ with the letter u.
Before you southerners git yer undies all rustled up, I want ya to know almost every southerner I met was AWESOME!!! This site is only directed to the wacko fundamentalists who give this area the "bible belt" name. Fer christ's sake, I play the banjo too!
:D LOL! :D

I may not agree with this guy entirely, but I like his style. Blunt and straight to the point. Nothing held back there.

smokymtnsteve
11-11-2004, 23:17
there are a lot of wack-o funda-mental-cases down here,

Lint
11-11-2004, 23:27
I know, Smokey, and I feel your pain...

steve hiker
11-12-2004, 03:05
SOUTHERN BAPTISTS HAVE HIGHEST DIVORCE RATE

The Associated Press 12/30/99 1:31 AM Eastern

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (AP) -- Baptists have the highest divorce rate of any
Christian denomination, and are more likely to get a divorce than
atheists and agnostics, according to a national survey.

The survey conducted by Barna Research Group in Ventura, Calif., found
that 29 percent of all adult Baptists have been through a divorce. Among
Christian groups, only those who attend non-denominational Protestant
churches were more likely to be divorced, with a 34 percent divorce rate.

Alabama, with a population of 4.3 million, has more than one million
Southern Baptists and a majority of evangelical Protestants. The state
ranks fourth nationally in divorce rates, behind Nevada, Tennessee and
Arkansas, according to U.S. government statistics.

Barna Research Group interviewed 3,854 adults from the 48 continental
states, with a margin of error of plus or minus 2 percent. The survey
found that while just 11 percent of the adult population is currently
divorced, 25 percent of all adults have experienced at least one divorce,
the survey showed.

Twenty seven percent of those describing themselves as born-again
Christians are currently or have previously been divorced, compared to 24
percent among other adults.

"While it may be alarming to discover that born-again Christians are more
likely than others to experience a divorce, that pattern has been in
place for quite some time," said George Barna, president of Barna
Research Group.

A Birmingham minister, the Rev. Stacy Pickering, said the numbers are
skewed because Baptist churches encourage young people to get married --
sometimes before they're ready -- before living together.

"Fewer people are getting married and the number of couples living
together has increased," said Pickering, minister of young married adults
and director of counseling at Shades Mountain Baptist Church.

He said his church now requires premarital counseling for couples who
want to marry at the church.

Of major Christian denominations, Catholics and Lutherans have the lowest
divorce rate at 21 percent, according to Barna. People who attend
mainstream Protestant churches have an overall divorce rate of 25
percent.

Rain Man
11-12-2004, 11:50
I don't agree that "leave no trace" in shelters is a violation of one's freedom of speech.

Hmmmmmm ... do you really mean it's not a restriction of one's freedom of speech? Or, do you rather mean that it's a reasonable and legal restrictiion of our freedom of speech?

Big difference, but I can't tell for sure which you mean.
:sun
Rain Man

.

Magic City
11-12-2004, 17:06
How can you call anyone opposed to leaving this crap in a shelter "leftest"?" It's like the press is now trying to call Bush's victory "an evangelical revolution" and is crediting the christian right for his win. Did you ever consider the fact that maybe, just maybe, there are other factorsI'm not sure how we went from Bibles in shelters to Bush's reelection. I didn't vote for Bush, but neither did I vote for Kerry. Back on topic, my post was in response to those here who are complaining about Christian literature being left in shelters even while admitting to leaving or being appreciative of the leaving of other literature. My point is that, when you object only to the fact that the stuff left behind is Christian in nature, then you show a bias against Christianity rather than toward LNT policy.

Personally, I wouldn't leave a Bible, or any other literature behind in a shelter, but I wouldn't object to finding one. You, on the other hand, have admitted to leaving other stuff behind, so you can't fall back on LNT policies as an excuse for a bias against Christian literature.

Skeemer
11-12-2004, 17:18
Rain Man commented on my earlier post regarding Leave No Trace not being a violation of one's freedom of speech:
Hmmmmmm ... do you really mean it's not a restriction of one's freedom of speech? Or, do you rather mean that it's a reasonable and legal restrictiion of our freedom of speech?

Good question...I guess what I'm trying to say is people seem to interpret "freedom of speech" to thier benefit. It's like...just because the AT doesn't want people trashing the shelters (eg Leave No Trace) it's suddenly interpreted as vilation or restriction of their freedom of speech. Should people leave political materials, bibles, porno, etc ANYWHERE they want because they interpret it as a RIGHT to "speak thier mind?" It's one thing to stand on the court house steps and rant (free speech) and another thing to leave garbage in AT shelters (against the rules). Unless the high courts have ruled otherwise, I feel It's not a violation of anyone's rights. Perhaps it could be interpreted by some "as a reasonable and legal restriction."

Is there a constitutional right to bear arms?...are there places on the AT where it is against the law to carry a gun? My scariest visit to a shelter was when I met up with a guy carrying a loaded pistol...second scariest was the guy carrying a bible.

You know...this thread started out talking about leaving the bibles in town. to take it to the extreme, how would you feel if you were hiking with your 12 year old son and found him leafing through a porn magazine in a shelter? It may not be a fair comparison, but not everyone finds the bible to be anything other than religious propaganda. If that's what you want while hiking you can find one in the next town at the church and the porn magazine in the drug store.

Skeemer
11-12-2004, 17:31
Magic City wrote to me:
You, on the other hand, have admitted to leaving other stuff behind, so you can't fall back on LNT policies as an excuse for a bias against Christian literature.

What exactly did I admit to leaving behind in a shelter. I wrote in my journal that I mistakenly left my reading glasses behind. Key word here Magic City is mistakenly Please remind me of the items I intentionally left in the shelters.

Yes, I do find it convenient to use LNT as a bias against all religious materials, christian, muslum, jewish, whatever.

Magic City
11-12-2004, 18:04
What exactly did I admit to leaving behind in a shelter.
I'm sorry, Skeemer. I thought I was replying to smokeymtnsteve. My mistake.

smokymtnsteve
11-12-2004, 18:18
Leaving Ed Abbey books in a shelter is a lesser offense than "tagging" them,

Lots of folks have not heard of Abbey, (and the world would be a better place if more folks knew Abbey)

everybody has heard of the bible and jesus.


I will offer NO excuse for breaking LNT rules by my leaving Ed Abbey books in shelters, GUILTY as CHARGED,,,, CRUXIFY ME!

FROM THE GOSPEL OF SMS!

"WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LEAVING ED ABBEY BOOKS AND BIBLES IN SHELTERS? THERE REALLY WAS AN EDWARD ABBEY!"

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

Lint
11-18-2004, 00:17
Ol' Cactus Ed wrote much better than all those men scribbling down selected parts from the bible. Abbey wrote alot of fiction, but the bible is 100% fiction. Smoky knows what's up; use yer bible to prop up the sofa, and read Desert Solitare instead.

weary
11-18-2004, 09:59
Ol' Cactus Ed wrote much better than all those men scribbling down selected parts from the bible. Abbey wrote alot of fiction, but the bible is 100% fiction. Smoky knows what's up; use yer bible to prop up the sofa, and read Desert Solitare instead.

Regardless of your religious beliefs, the Christian/Jewish Bible is partly an historical account of ancient middle eastern wars engaged in by a tribe that believed it had a special mandate from God. It remains a valuable source of information about ancient middle eastern towns and cities, and ancient middle eastern beliefs about the nature of God.

Probably because it recounts events that happened before writing was widespread, much of the Bible is based on memories handed down over the generations, which may be one reason for the inconsistencies and errors involving historical facts. However, it is foolish and simply wrong to call the Bible "100% fiction."

Weary

Skeemer
11-18-2004, 13:14
Lint wrote in part:
...but the bible is 100% fiction...


Weary responded in part:
...the Christian/Jewish Bible is partly an historical account of ancient middle eastern wars engaged in by a tribe that believed it had a special mandate from God...much of the Bible is based on memories handed down over the generations, which may be one reason for the inconsistencies and errors involving historical facts...

Whether the bible is totally fiction like Lint says isn't really important. What is, is that it's just reading material...that's all it is, period...reading material that christians want to litter the shelters with because the preachers have told them to "spread the word." In regards to shelters, it should be treated no differently than any other reading material.

My belief is most of them don't really believe in Christ in their hearts...they just say they do...it's kind of an "insurance policy" in case there happens to be a God up there. It's so interesting...common sense and science tells you it's crap. No one has ever been able to explain to me why a God, with all this power and one who can listen to billions of human prayers at a time, needs to command obedience and test the faith of his followers. BTW, isn't it about time for another crucifiction to help prop up the numbers? Religion is just a business (tax free BTW) playing on people's fears.

If I were religious I would be catholic...isn't that the one that all you have to do to get to heaven is confess your sins on regular basis to a priest (a priest who is likely molesting little boys)? Now there's a flexible religion.

Lone Wolf
11-18-2004, 13:26
All y'all quit your bellyachin. Bibles ain't hurting a thing being in the shelters. Some folks actually read them and take them. They're always gonna be there as long as AT clubs keep building shelters. Y'all should be more concerned about trees bring torn down to build the damn things. What's LNT about a shelter? They suck.

MOWGLI
11-18-2004, 13:27
I think this all boils down to issues of control. For me, the AT experience is all about freedom. Not the freedom to do whatever I darn well please, but freedom to leave the work-a-day world behind, and experience life without the hands of a clock dictating my every movement. The sunrise & sunset dicatates my activities on the trail.

Some folks here can't stand that others might have a different view of the world than them. To me, the differences between the hikers I meet along the AT is a bonus. Do I was an evangelical trying to convert me in a shelter? No. Am I going to throw a fit when someone leaves a bible in a shelter? No. That'll always happen, long after I'm worm food.

We all bring different sets of baggage with us on the trail. I think if each of us treats the folks we meet on the trail with respect, then much of what has been discussed in this thread becomes moot.

Skeemer
11-18-2004, 14:18
...it's kinda fun to bellyache. We can't all be sharing helpful hints on gear 100% of the time...you've been there haven't ya?

But it is nice to know your hatred of shelters is motivated by your love of trees...I guess I didn't realize you was one of those gun toten tree huggers.

Have a nice day.

Dances with Mice
11-18-2004, 14:24
The great majority of Christian hikers, no matter how devout, don't skip along planting bibles in shelters.

The very few that do aren't causing that big a problem. Their intentions aren't bad, I'm sure they think they're doing an appreciated public service. I wish they wouldn't but there are many other, and much worse, things left at shelters.

Bibles add a few ounces to the pounds of trash in maintainers' trash bags. I'll bet JC will be on His comeback tour before bibles become a major source of shelter garbage.

In the end, it's just a small book in a small portion of a big trail. It's not like a skyscraping windmill or anything.

copythat
11-25-2004, 20:55
Paper (books, magazines, toilet paper) will become mouse fodder sooner or later ...

Hey, we'll all be mouse fodder one day. Until then, if it's not forbidden to leave treats in the shelters, why not? A book, some food or water ... the food and water will be consumed, the book will travel up and down the trail until it becomes mouse fodder or tinder or t.p. and is no longer an issue. Only unpopular stuff sits in the shelters for very long. Personally, I'd snag Adm. Byrd's "Alone" before the Bible, but I sure wouldn't tell anyone they couldn't leave it there, or read it. And if someone decided I was ripe for conversion, I'd just tell them what I tell the good people who visit my stoop: Thank you for you concern about my soul, but I'm not interested.

Ridge
11-25-2004, 22:33
If you can hand something over to an accepting hiker, fine, its now theirs. Otherwise "PACK OUT WHAT YOU PACK IN". Don't leave anything thinking someone will want it and don't try to force anything on anybody. Trails are trashed enough already.

Needles
11-26-2004, 05:23
there are a lot of wack-o funda-mental-cases down here,

Yes there are, but there are also a lot of atheists, pagans, liberals, leftists, and gays. And all of them can be as wacko and zealous about their beliefes as the right wing religious crowd. Heck, you would be hard pressed to find anyone further to the left than I am and I live in the South, in fact I couldn't wait to get back here after spending a year in Seattle, but I can't stand it when someone looks at me and says "Bush is evil" and then can't explain why they feel that way. It's the same when someone says "Bush is a good man", ok, I'm open minded, tell me why. So far I haven't received an answer that wasn't completely stupid or hypocritical. We live in a country where it seems everyone holds strong opinions. Strangely most of us seem to hold the same strong opinions as the people around us. Stranger still few of us seem to have a good idea why we hold the opinions that we do. For God's sake people, stop wasting time memorizing snappy comebacks to use when someone disagrees with your political beliefes and start figuring out what it is that you REALLY believe, eductae your damn selves!
By the way, anyone who thinks they are educating themselves by watching a Michael Moore movie, listening to Al Franken on the radio, watching Fox News, or hanging on every word uttered by Michael Savage or Rush Limbaugh, you are a fool. All of these people do what they do to make money, they all say what they say to hold on to their audience, and none of them is telling the whole truth. The information is out there, all you have to do is go get it and read it, and make sure you read at least as much from people you disagree with as you do from people you agree with. One side of a story is never enough to go on.

minnesotasmith
11-27-2004, 16:22
My favorite response is to ask them if they would be willing to listen to me tell them about the tenets of my religion first. If (as most people who are pushy about religion usually are) they are unwilling to do that, I say that if they are unwilling to extend me the courtesy they are asking me to give them, I would be unwilling to talk to someone so discourteous, and terminate the conversation.

A shorter way of deflecting such talk is to interrupt them the instant that it is obvious the way the conversation is going to ask them, "Is this about religion?". When they answer in the affirmative, I tell them I already have one, and that the conversation is over.

IMO, trying to tell someone (that did not ask your opinion) that their religion is flawed is in the same league as volunteering to someone (who did not ask you) that they chose their spouse poorly, and should discard them.

weary
11-27-2004, 16:55
IMO, trying to tell someone (that did not ask your opinion) that their religion is flawed is in the same league as volunteering to someone (who did not ask you) that they chose their spouse poorly, and should discard them.

Hmmm. Minnesota. When did the Muslims ask for your opinion about their religion?

Weary

minnesotasmith
11-27-2004, 17:52
"When did the Muslims ask for your opinion about their religion?

Weary"

When they announced and began to act on their desire to convert me and all my countrymen if possible, killing us otherwise, and started permanently displacing us in our own country. Judging by the actions of those who take Islamic belief seriously, it is a flat-out cult, as much as the Scientologists, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Heaven's Gate people, and Jim Jones' group. Judging by the history of its adherents, such cultish belief systems do not have the utility and beauty of quiet nondestroyers like most Buddhists and the Bahai, to give two examples.

weary
11-27-2004, 18:13
"When did the Muslims ask for your opinion about their religion?

Weary"

When they announced and began to act on their desire to convert me and all my countrymen if possible, killing us otherwise, and started permanently displacing us in our own country. Judging by the actions of those who take Islamic belief seriously, it is a flat-out cult, as much as the Scientologists, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Heaven's Gate people, and Jim Jones' group. Judging by the history of its adherents, such cultish belief systems do not have the utility and beauty of quiet nondestroyers like most Buddhists and the Bahai, to give two examples.
Nah. Those were not main stream Muslims, they were a cult subgroup -- sort of like the cult "Christians" that turned out this month in just sufficient members to reelect a failed President in a democracy with a failed educational system.

Weary

minnesotasmith
11-27-2004, 19:24
If those Muslims were atypical in their attitudes, they would be routinely turned in by fellow Muslims, excommunicated by virtually all Muslim clerics, etc. As that is not happening, the other Muslims are complicit in 9/11-type terrorism IMO. Look,we can't find the individual Muslim terrorists in our midst without help from the other Muslims, who hide them, give them money and information, etc. If they are not found and removed from our country, eventually those terrorists will start setting off nuclear bombs in our cities, let loose genetically-modified smallpox here, etc.

We are dead if the Muslims who would kill us all are not removed, and right now the only way to remove them is to expel virtually all Muslims.

So be it.

-------------------------------------------------------
Uh, weary, an electoral majority is not exactly a fringe group, not within that one nation. As far as the public education system goes, I agree that it stinks. If I ever have children, they will either be homeschooled or attend private schools. However, the public schools were largely designed and are operated by liberals, most of whom are open socialists. Don't blame the conservatives for how *****ty the pub schools are; they resisted almost every change the liberals made in those schools (from they way that was proven to work, and the pub schools mostly operated under pre-1963 or so).

I would add that the Democratic Party would do better in Presidential elections if they stopped running known traitors. Even some socialists don't want the security of the country at risk from it being run by such human phlegm.

weary
11-27-2004, 22:03
Uh, weary, an electoral majority is not exactly a fringe group, not within that one nation. As far as the public education system goes, I agree that it stinks. .... I would add that the Democratic Party would do better in Presidential elections if they stopped running known traitors. Even some socialists don't want the security of the country at risk from it being run by such human phlegm.

Truly, Minnesota, your comments would not be worth commenting on were it not for the many otherwise rational people who are swayed by such crap. I'm sorry I made the crack about the "cult" Christians, not because it's wrong, but because it's sure to be misunderstood.

But the election margin was so narrow that any number of special interest groups could easily have provided the margin. I've heard so many totally ignorant, minority sect Christians, who had never read anything, never listened to anything, say they had voted for the first time because at last we had a "moral" president I can't help but think they probably tipped the balance.

Unfortunately, their assessment of Bush's morality is about on a par with your claim that Kerry was a traitor.

It is not true that political debates never sway minds. Debate is how rational people come to their political conclusions. But it is true that debate with "true believers" -- people like yourself who have truth and nonsense all mixed together and who have minds seemingly incapable of distinguishing one from the other -- is a less than useful activity.

AS for our educational system, there are enough deficiencies to cover all political spectrums, but the fundamental problem is not liberals but those who substitute faith for facts, and textbook publishers that cater to the most illiterate, unthinking minorities.

Textbooks offend no one, these days, and sadly teach no one the fundamentals needed for a wise electorate.

Weary

Needles
11-28-2004, 04:19
I would add that the Democratic Party would do better in Presidential elections if they stopped running known traitors. Even some socialists don't want the security of the country at risk from it being run by such human phlegm.

Yeah, the democrats would be much better off if they ran deserters instead, oh I'm sorry,sorry, you probably think I shouldn't have said that, I should have said liars, cause we know we were lied to about WMD, we were lied to about all of the "dead or alive" stuff when it came to bin Laden, oh wait I guess I shouldn't have said that either. Then the democrats would be better off if they ran someone who was un-American and did things like stomped on our Constitutionaly gauranteed rights, or tried to pressure people into giving up their first amendment right of free speech. And don't tell me I shouldn't have said that cause all Kerry did was excercise his rights by saying what he believed at the time. That doesn't make him a traitor it makes him an American.

Too many people have fought for this country (George W Bush not being one of them) so that we could keep the freedoms and rights we all cherish so much. To not use these rights that so many have died for is insulting, in my opinion, to those who gave their lives so the rest of us would be free to speak our minds. John Kerry may have been an idiot, a jerk, and terribly misguided, but he was no traitor. George W Bush, by allowing the Constitution to be threatened, by putting the lives of so many Americans at risk for reasons that seem to change every 5 minutes (who is the flip flopper?), and by trying to alter the Constitution for political gains, all of which makes us look weak and vunerable in the eyes of our enemies, is the very essence of a traitor.

By the way, you like to throw the word "socialist" around a lot, quick, without loking it up, can you even define the word "socialist"? If you can't then I will suggest that you go read the words of the world's most famous socialist, Jesus Christ. Don't believe me? Read what Jesus had to say and then compare that to socialist teachings, they sound terribly similar. On the other hand nothing I have ever heard George W Bush say sounds anything like Christ's teachings. You might then say that he is not only un-American but un-Christian as well.

smokymtnsteve
11-28-2004, 07:56
You might then say that he is not only un-American but un-Christian as well.

naw, Dubya bush is jist one of dem Xians that believe In jesus, not of the exceptional Xians that actually beleives LIKE jesus.

c.coyle
11-28-2004, 08:39
From yesterday's Fremont, Ohio News-Messenger:

"Fremont Baptist Temple

Fremont Baptist Temple is hosting a revival with Evangelist Ron Hodge at 7 p.m. Dec. 3 and 4 and at 10 a.m., 11 a.m. and 6 p.m. Dec. 5. Hodge is CEO of Missionaries to the Appalachians, a ministry to those hiking the Appalachian Trail." (Emphasis added).

http://www.thenews-messenger.com/news/stories/20041127/localnews/1660114.html

Skeemer
11-28-2004, 10:03
Isn't it all about power...no matter what side your on? Neither the liberals nor the conservatives give a rats ass about you or me personally. It's all about being in charge of the most powerful nation in the world...being "THE MAN"...controlling things...keeping their party in power...running the show. In a democracy they get there by getting the most votes. They get the most votes by doing or saying anything their strategists tell them will work.

Maybe I don't have enough conviction as I was not "turned on" by either candidate. So what I did was try to decide who offended me the most personally, and voted accordingly.

It seems to me the country is pretty evenly divided. Having said that, the domocrats who have been elected President in recent history seem to be more moderate while the republicans seem to be more scewed to the right. I don't see getting elected with 50+ per cent of the vote as any kind of mandate.

When Christians (SMS...I rememer when people would sign their cards, "Merry Xmas"...drove my mother crazy) talk about Bush having a mandate it scares me. I think he's trying to "sell that" to the electorate as whole. If he thinks we're buying it, he'll go for it. Religion is just a powerful lobby, like fire arms, the pentagon, environmental groups, etc.

This thread started by asking about leaving religious materials in shelters. Few topics are more emotional that religion...for which I too felt compelled to comment on earlier. It has now evolved into a debate on Bush vs. Kerry which is fine. Just don't take it so personal when someone doesn't see it your way.

Youngblood
11-28-2004, 10:11
...It is not true that political debates never sway minds. Debate is how rational people come to their political conclusions. But it is true that debate with "true believers" -- people like yourself who have truth and nonsense all mixed together and who have minds seemingly incapable of distinguishing one from the other -- is a less than useful activity. ...

Weary,

I really like that statement. It is much more eloquent than the one I use: "It is a waste of time trying to reason with fanatics or idiots."

Youngblood

Groucho
11-28-2004, 12:42
When Christians (SMS...I rememer when people would sign their cards, "Merry Xmas"...drove my mother crazy)


As an off topic aside: Xmas has been used for hundreds of years. Link (http://www.bartleby.com/61/80/X0008000.html)

Lint
11-29-2004, 19:00
Atheism cures religious terrorism

smokymtnsteve
11-29-2004, 19:03
Atheism cures religious terrorism

an ABSOLUTE TRUTH :sun

Skeemer
11-30-2004, 09:51
Lint wrote:
Atheism cures religious terrorism

Wish I'd thought of that...you're right, if we didn't have religious fanatics out there there would be a lot less pain and suffering.

Lone Wolf
11-30-2004, 09:54
Who wants 17 virgins anyway?

Blue Jay
11-30-2004, 10:04
Who wants 17 virgins anyway?

Actually once they take out the legal fees and taxes, you only get 3.45 virgins.

Rain Man
11-30-2004, 11:25
... Neither the liberals nor the conservatives give a rats ass about you or me personally. .... Just don't take it so personal when someone doesn't see it your way.

???? Skeemer, I know this is just my perspective, but as a liberal myself, I think you took a cheap, personal shot, then turned around and said don't take it so personal.

Since you have little idea of what I give a rats ass about, one might be tempted to say don't make it so personal to begin with, then it won't be as likely to be taken personally. Had you said "some" or "too many" or "most IMHO," then your comment wouldn't have applied to all liberals in general. Since you chose to make it apply to all liberals in general, you made it apply to me personally. That's more than a tad insulting.

Yes, the victims of such unfair attacks should continually slough them off. However, IMHO, it is more the duty of those who launch such totally unqualified broadside attacks not to make them in the first place. Then we might have civil, non-personal discussions ... instead of personal attacks, which the victims are entitled to take personally.

Thanks fer listenin'.

And, as you yourself said, "Just don't take it so personal when someone doesn't see it your way."
:sun
Rain Man, a liberal and proud of it.

.

Skeemer
11-30-2004, 14:46
Sorry, I didn't mean to direct my comments at anyone in particular...or even to liberals in general. I was just trying to say that IMO neither Bush nor Kerry really care about what happens to the common folk. IMHP, it is all about political power... they're not running for office because they "want to right all the wrongs" if that makes any sense. If that wasn't the "cheap personal shot" you were referring to, let me know. Maybe I've got this confused with another posting...or maybe you do. When I ask folks not to take it personal it was directed at a few that sounded really upset with others that didn't agree with them. If I sounded upset with others that did not agree with me...well, I'm not. Actually, I like some liberal positions (environment, gun control and a woman's right to choose come to mind)

Rain Man
11-30-2004, 18:24
Sorry, I didn't mean to direct my comments at anyone in particular...(snipped solely for brevity)...

Graciously put, Skeemer. Thanks for the clarifying reply.

Sorry if I sounded overly sensitive about the general remarks.
:sun
Rain Man

.

Blue Jay
12-01-2004, 10:04
Graciously put, Skeemer. Thanks for the clarifying reply.

Sorry if I sounded overly sensitive about the general remarks.
:sun
Rain Man

.

Hey, what's all this civility here. Watch it people might think your intelligent adults.

God Does Love You
07-25-2005, 07:38
If someone wants to serve a master, let them, but please leave us freethinkers alone.
Freethinker here, one who knows God is master, Jesus is Lord. No matter what anyone else thinks or believes, God's still there, always He is there whether you choose to ignore Him or not.

People leaving Christian literature in shelters should be a good thing. The only reason it is not good is because it often turns into trash. Then again, like with so many things in life, the good should be weighed against the bad. If one person can come closer to Christ because of literature left in a shelter then that is much better than any trash that is created by people who wish to turn such literature into trash. It's not trash. If you don't wanna read then don't. But maybe someone will benefit and to come closer to Jesus, well, son, there just ain't nothin' better on Earth than that.

Open your mind, Open your heart, Let Him in and your life WILL be better.

Peace, Love, Freedom
CW

Lone Wolf
07-25-2005, 07:53
Here we go again. Another s**t stirrer.

Sly
07-25-2005, 08:34
Yeah, Peace, Love, Freedom from Religion.

I'm getting so sick of the self-righteous, the Religious Right, the Bible Belt my head's ready to explode! :datz

Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop away from you like the leaves of Autumn. -John Muir

God Does Love You
07-25-2005, 08:37
Religious propaganda has no place ANYWHERE!
The Bible would qualify as propaganda. So according to you: no Bibles should ever be passed from one person to another. No Bible should ever again be printed because once it goes from one person (the printer) to another person then it becomes propaganda. Those Bibles already in existence should remain where they are and the information contained within should never be told to anyone. Okay for one person to read it but not to spread it around.

Sounds reasonable (i say quite sarcastically.)

Don't get angry about literature talking about the Glory of God because telling people about Jesus, Heaven & Hell is what we're all supposed to do. The Bible, though, doesn't say "Thou shalt not tell people about about Christ on a hiking trail 'cause it might piss someone off." If someone doesn't want to hear it they have a choice to say, "No, thanks" or "screw off" or whatever. Just because you choose not to follow the Bible the way you're supposed to, that doesn't make a fool, moron, or schmuck out of the person talking about God & living for Christ.

Have a nice day :)

Lone Wolf
07-25-2005, 08:41
That's all well and good, just don't leave your jesus stuff in shelters. Shelters suck anyway.
Actually go ahead and leave the stuff. Won't bother me. I never stay in them. A bible or 2 ain't gonna hurt nothin.

SGT Rock
07-25-2005, 09:07
The Bible would qualify as propaganda. So according to you: no Bibles should ever be passed from one person to another. No Bible should ever again be printed because once it goes from one person (the printer) to another person then it becomes propaganda. Those Bibles already in existence should remain where they are and the information contained within should never be told to anyone. Okay for one person to read it but not to spread it around.

Sounds reasonable (i say quite sarcastically.)

Don't get angry about literature talking about the Glory of God because telling people about Jesus, Heaven & Hell is what we're all supposed to do. The Bible, though, doesn't say "Thou shalt not tell people about about Christ on a hiking trail 'cause it might piss someone off." If someone doesn't want to hear it they have a choice to say, "No, thanks" or "screw off" or whatever. Just because you choose not to follow the Bible the way you're supposed to, that doesn't make a fool, moron, or schmuck out of the person talking about God & living for Christ.

Have a nice day :)

Except when your way of witnessing becomes an impediment to someone's salvation. If your actions offend MORE than they help and turn even one away from Christ, are you not contradicting your own philosophy? I guess you have to take responsibility for the bad witnessing as well as the good to understand the responsibility implied.:-?

Seems like this is mentioned in the New Testament somewhere :rolleyes:

And yes I know where, but I would hope a brother wouldn't want this to turn into a religious debate, the debate is about how to be a good steward of the trail and it's shelters, not how to witness.:D

Nean
07-25-2005, 12:00
Spreading a message of THIS Way is THE (only) Way sounds like Great way to stir up bitterness, hatred, war....naw, that would never happen! Now that I've gotten past shelters ruining my wilderness experience;) I'd prefer the only book I find in one to be the register. Too many shelters....;) turned into librarys/thrift shops. I'm the type who will say something if someone is leaving books, stuff, trash at a shelter. I hear, "just in case" and "what better place?" to which I'm quick to reply, Hiker Box, :) aka Pass Along box! Pass along Your message, books, extra gear there. Show respect to others by leaving no trace at the shelters. Wouldn't that be nice?

Crazy Larry #1
07-25-2005, 19:32
hmmmm, good topic......

but i think i'll stand back and see where this is going..

sgt rock i like your reply..

lone wolf, you never cease to amaze me, that's what i like about you.....

Lone Wolf
07-25-2005, 19:50
Yeah Larry. I'm so full of s**t it ain't funny! :D You doin OK kid?

Heater
07-25-2005, 19:53
If someone doesn't want to hear it they have a choice to say, "No, thanks" or "screw off" or whatever.
Have a nice day :)
Screw off! :D

...and, have a nice day! :) :) :)

Crazy Larry #1
07-25-2005, 22:37
Yeah Larry. I'm so full of s**t it ain't funny! :D You doin OK kid?thanx for asking, yes, i am doing great...i'm currently in alabama doing heavy equipment work...i came down here from damascus...my friends, ray and loretta johnson quit the harpers ferry hostel on the fifth of july and swung in and picked me up and brought me down here...if anybody wants a job, this is the place...it's booming big time here in huntsville....

how about you, how's that head of yours?

Crazy Larry #1
07-25-2005, 22:39
Screw off! :D

...and, have a nice day! :) :) :)they asked for it and they got it...:o

fonsie
03-27-2007, 11:42
Yea them christens are allways trying to convert every body, but there religion has'nt been around that long. Back in the day my kind would get slaughter and burned for not converting. Yea I have used a christen bible and word as a fire starter...Keep leaving them they save the weight for me.

Jaybird
03-27-2007, 11:47
Yea them christens are allways trying to convert every body, but there religion has'nt been around that long. Back in the day my kind would get slaughter and burned for not converting. Yea I have used a christen bible and word as a fire starter...Keep leaving them they save the weight for me.




i rekon' that CHRISTEN bible dun U sum good!
release the LIONS!:D

fonsie
03-27-2007, 11:54
i rekon' that CHRISTEN bible dun U sum good!
release the LIONS!:D
Yea got my fire started :banana

copythat
03-27-2007, 18:42
i think i'm going to start leaving copies of forbes magazine in the shelters and carving page references ("i upped my income, up yours," mar 05 p242) in nearby trees.






Freethinker here, one who knows God is master, Jesus is Lord. No matter what anyone else thinks or believes, God's still there, always He is there whether you choose to ignore Him or not.

People leaving Christian literature in shelters should be a good thing. The only reason it is not good is because it often turns into trash. Then again, like with so many things in life, the good should be weighed against the bad. If one person can come closer to Christ because of literature left in a shelter then that is much better than any trash that is created by people who wish to turn such literature into trash. It's not trash. If you don't wanna read then don't. But maybe someone will benefit and to come closer to Jesus, well, son, there just ain't nothin' better on Earth than that.

Open your mind, Open your heart, Let Him in and your life WILL be better.

Peace, Love, Freedom
CW

lLadd5
06-26-2007, 21:19
[The trail is not a place to convert people! ]
Any place is good place to convert people, And I can't think of a better place for someone to find God than out in creation.

Dances with Mice
06-26-2007, 21:57
[The trail is not a place to convert people! ]
Any place is good place to convert people, And I can't think of a better place for someone to find God than out in creation.Threads can rise again from the dead!

copythat
06-26-2007, 22:19
you all can talk your jaws off about god and ronald reagan, but ...

... PLEASE DON'T LEAVE YOUR ***** IN THE SH*LTERS!

it makes a mess, and we're not supposed to do that out there.

fiddlehead
06-26-2007, 22:40
Being an open minded person, i was wondering if anyone has seen the Koran in any shelters lately.
I realize that the AT is a cultural experience and it goes through the "Bible Belt" of the nation in GA, NC, TN and VA. And i don't imagine the Koran would be very popular there. But perhaps some open minded people would give it a read. (not that i'm preaching I prefer to believe Bhuddha over Christ or Mohammed but i like to look at the world from many sides. )

Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-27-2007, 05:39
With the exception of trail journals and messages conveying info necessary to the safety and well-being of hikers, I don't feel any reading material should be left in shelters -- especially not loose phamplets. No matter how worthwhile the message, these items end up being litter and mouse-nesting material.

If you feel you must spread your religion on the trail, do it in person and observe LNT techniques. Also, leave people alone who make it clear they aren't interested. Attempting to push religion on people ends up pushing them away -- it is counterproductive and is specifically discouraged by Christ himself. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=14&version=31&context=verse)

Lone Wolf
06-27-2007, 07:20
if registers are ok in shelters, bibles or any other religious stuff in shelters are fine too. i leave readers digests ocaisionally.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-27-2007, 07:26
::: Dino stands agast that LW admits to setting foot in a shelter :::

Lone Wolf
06-27-2007, 07:33
::: Dino stands agast that LW admits to setting foot in a shelter :::

only to put stuff in them that i don't want to carry cuz i know someone will pack it out

mrc237
06-27-2007, 07:46
if registers are ok in shelters, bibles or any other religious stuff in shelters are fine too. i leave readers digests ocaisionally.

Readers Digest::::::::::::::you gotta be s***tin' me!!!

Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-27-2007, 07:48
only to put stuff in them that i don't want to carry cuz i know someone will pack it out::: :eek: Dino forms posse of maintainers to go on wolf hunt ;) :::

Lone Wolf
06-27-2007, 08:02
Readers Digest::::::::::::::you gotta be s***tin' me!!!

nope. that's my preferred reading on the trail, not some wimpy thoreau spew

superman
06-27-2007, 08:05
It's bad enough that I have to go to the trouble of running the jehova nut bags off my land. I have a short temper for gutless phonies who hide behind their religion for a free ride in this country. If they don't have what it takes to stand up for their country they shouldn't be running around saying that those who do are going to hell for doing it. I don't even want to hear their nonsense when I'm hiking. It's yet another reason to avoid shelters.

V=http://groups.msn.com/OldGUYthenandnow/shoebox.msnw

Lone Wolf
06-27-2007, 08:08
it's just printed words. don't read it. nobody is standing there actually preaching.

Dr O
06-27-2007, 08:18
Don't get angry about literature talking about the Glory of God because telling people about Jesus, Heaven & Hell is what we're all supposed to do. The Bible, though, doesn't say "Thou shalt not tell people about about Christ on a hiking trail 'cause it might piss someone off." If someone doesn't want to hear it they have a choice to say, "No, thanks" or "screw off" or whatever. Just because you choose not to follow the Bible the way you're supposed to, that doesn't make a fool, moron, or schmuck out of the person talking about God & living for Christ.

Have a nice day :)


I wish some Christians would find less obnoxious methods of testifying than those employed by the common telemarketer and email spammer. It's just as shady, annoying, intrusive, and unwelcome. There are more churches in this country than fast food joints. If they want literature, they know where to get it already.

If religious headhunters and recruiters think they are exempt from standards of common decency and politeness, and more to the point, the rules of the trail and it's shelters, then everyone else will claim exemption too. Might as well just allow the inevitable "make your penis bigger with this $100 pill" and assorted flyers too.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-27-2007, 08:31
Far and away the best method of witnessing is living a life people want -- people will ask you why you are always happy or how you breeze thru troubled times. That is when it is time to discuss the how's and why's. The majority of the people who use SPAM and telemarketing techniques to 'market' Christianity don't have anything I'd want. As Dr. O so aptly notes - politeness and common decency are a part of the Christian walk.

RockyBob
06-27-2007, 08:42
I wish some Christians would find less obnoxious methods of testifying than those employed by the common telemarketer and email spammer. It's just as shady, annoying, intrusive, and unwelcome. There are more churches in this country than fast food joints. If they want literature, they know where to get it already.

If religious headhunters and recruiters think they are exempt from standards of common decency and politeness, and more to the point, the rules of the trail and it's shelters, then everyone else will claim exemption too. Might as well just allow the inevitable "make your penis bigger with this $100 pill" and assorted flyers too.


Uhhh.......can I buy some of those pills? :banana

Dances with Mice
06-27-2007, 09:22
I found some Chick tracts (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0082/0082_01.asp)recently!

I don't know if they're a Southern thing or nationwide. I saw a bunch of them way back in college. I didn't know they were still around.

Cheap pulp, burns well.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-27-2007, 09:25
Chick tract are great comedy reading, but I can't imagine they convert anyone.

Wanderingson
06-27-2007, 09:36
Far and away the best method of witnessing is living a life people want -- people will ask you why you are always happy or how you breeze thru troubled times. That is when it is time to discuss the how's and why's. The majority of the people who use SPAM and telemarketing techniques to 'market' Christianity don't have anything I'd want. As Dr. O so aptly notes - politeness and common decency are a part of the Christian walk.


Well said, You walk the walk on any trail and I choose whether to follow on my own. You either have what I want or you don't.

I can take or leave any written material, but if I go balistic about little things like this, maybe, I need a little siritual guidance anyway.

Wonder
06-27-2007, 10:47
I did get approached ON TRAIL by not one, but two people at different times. Kids actually sent out there, one morman, the other, not sure...but cristian. I was sitting on Max Patch this year, trying to enjoy my windy sunset of a lifetime, and this kid pulls out a 10lb bible and starts reading to me out of it. I almost threw a fit, but instead, I got up from my own meditation and went back to camp. Why is it not ok to be any religion out there other then cristian? He destroyed my own very religious moment/experience buy intruding with his own.

Crazy Larry #1
06-27-2007, 11:16
::: Dino stands agast that LW admits to setting foot in a shelter :::
Wow! Me too! Not Lone Wolf? Takes a man to admit he does such a thing.......;)

Crazy Larry #1
06-27-2007, 11:17
It's bad enough that I have to go to the trouble of running the jehova nut bags off my land. I have a short temper for gutless phonies who hide behind their religion for a free ride in this country. If they don't have what it takes to stand up for their country they shouldn't be running around saying that those who do are going to hell for doing it. I don't even want to hear their nonsense when I'm hiking. It's yet another reason to avoid shelters.

V=http://groups.msn.com/OldGUYthenandnow/shoebox.msnw
Yeah? Well not every God fearing person is a Jehova nut bag pal..........

Crazy Larry #1
06-27-2007, 11:23
Chick tract are great comedy reading, but I can't imagine they convert anyone.
I bet you they do more than you can imagine.................

The Weasel
06-27-2007, 12:17
While I agree that tracts and such things can be annoying (and generally ignored, if one wishes), and while they might help mice (not much more than spilled food, perhaps), consider the other point of view for a moment, with this in mind:

You're asleep in the shelter. Suddenly you hear shouting. The guy next to you is yelling, "The shelter is on fire." You sit upright, see the flames, and lunge for the opening just as a burning timber falls where you'd just been sleeping. You look at the other guy and say, "Thanks, dude. You saved my life."

That's what evangelists think they're doing. Saving you, and from a danger that is imminent. They're disturbing you, yes, just as the guy in the actual fire did. But they sincerely think they are saving you from a terrible plight.

You're free to believe they are wrong; perhaps they are. But whether you agree or not, have at least a small bit of kindness in your heart for them that they care that much for you.

The Weasel

Marta
06-27-2007, 12:28
I did get approached ON TRAIL by not one, but two people at different times. Kids actually sent out there, one morman, the other, not sure...but cristian. I was sitting on Max Patch this year, trying to enjoy my windy sunset of a lifetime, and this kid pulls out a 10lb bible and starts reading to me out of it. I almost threw a fit, but instead, I got up from my own meditation and went back to camp. Why is it not ok to be any religion out there other then cristian? He destroyed my own very religious moment/experience buy intruding with his own.

I was on Max Patch last Saturday evening, planning to camp out on the summit. Around 7 I spied a big church van plus a long line of vehicles driving into the parking lot. 30 or more people struggled up the hill with lawn chairs, coolers, musical instruments, etc. (A bunch of them went straight up the closed trail past the sign telling people not to do that because of the erosion problems.) It was a 7th Day Adventist group from Asheville. They sat in a circle and did their thing for an hour or so. It was way too crowded for us, so we moved on down the hill out of sight and sound. They were friendly enough and didn't push either literature or conversation on us but, dang, there were soooo many of them.

Marta/Five-Leaf

Appalachian Tater
06-27-2007, 12:33
While I agree that tracts and such things can be annoying (and generally ignored, if one wishes), and while they might help mice (not much more than spilled food, perhaps), consider the other point of view for a moment, with this in mind:

You're asleep in the shelter. Suddenly you hear shouting. The guy next to you is yelling, "The shelter is on fire." You sit upright, see the flames, and lunge for the opening just as a burning timber falls where you'd just been sleeping. You look at the other guy and say, "Thanks, dude. You saved my life."

That's what evangelists think they're doing. Saving you, and from a danger that is imminent. They're disturbing you, yes, just as the guy in the actual fire did. But they sincerely think they are saving you from a terrible plight.

You're free to believe they are wrong; perhaps they are. But whether you agree or not, have at least a small bit of kindness in your heart for them that they care that much for you.

The Weasel

No, they're obnoxious in thinking there's an exception for their religious literature and in setting "traps" for people like Hurcules and Fal do.

And Weasel, I'm surprised that a lawyer thinks that someone's intentions justify their actions.

hammock engineer
06-27-2007, 12:58
All this talk reminds me of how bad walking across campus at school used to be. When I first started I could not walk to class without 3 or 4 seperate people or groups harassing me to join whatever religous group they were in. A couple times it was a little comical when a group would organize something. It took the school passing a rule that barred groups from approaching people on campus for this to quiet down.

I guess a few years a a few hundred leave me alone responses have left me a little less than nice with the way I respond to people that do that sort of thing.

In the end people need to keep their opinions to their self and stop trying to convert the world to believe what they do.

I guess yet another reason why I am cut out to be a southbounder. Not too many of them are going to brave the fall or winter weather.

MrHappy
06-27-2007, 13:00
LOL....I'll have to remember that one the next time a freethinker uses the term "open-minded". But it's kinda silly that people get offended when someone tries to talk to them about the Bible, God, or Jesus. I never have understood that. Isn't it just simple peer pressure? It's not like someone has a gun to their head.

While the primary "messages" of the bible (koran, etc.) that are taught today are love and kindness and that sort of good thing, that is not always what the book says. The problem with these books is that they are so vast, and written by so many authors, and open to so many interpretations that they can lead to violent and damaging acts. If one reads select passages of the Koran, and interprets them one way or another, it is not hard to see why some muslims might come to believe that if they blow themselves up and take a lot of infidels with them, they will go to heaven. Similarly, if one reads select passages of the bible, one might think that burning witches is a good idea. Of course, we don't burn witches anymore -- modern culture wouldn't let us -- but the passages that inspired that are still there, in the bible. We just choose to ignore them at most services.

Throughout history, millions more people have been killed in Jesus' name than Hitler's.

Thats why some people get offended when other people try to push their religions on them, or at least, that's why I do.

Dances with Mice
06-27-2007, 13:18
... Of course, we don't burn witches anymore -- modern culture wouldn't let us -- Can't sacrifice virgins anymore either.

(...sigh...) Yeah, those were the good old days...

superman
06-27-2007, 13:19
Yeah? Well not every God fearing person is a Jehova nut bag pal..........

I stand by what I said.