View Full Version : Are Canister Stoves Leave No Trace?
phillycheze
10-30-2008, 11:10
i'm having trouble deciding which and what kind of stove to bring. i don't really like my canister stove only because of the canister disposal and it uses a form of gas; which we are at war for. i made my first pop-can alcohol stove and it worked but it just seems limited to boiling water. now i'm looking into debris stoves that burn on what u find on the forest floor; ie: the Kelly Kettle.
any ideas folks?
tucker0104
10-30-2008, 11:21
I really don't think that 7oz of fuel is what we are at war for. If you want to take it to a 17 on a 1 to 10 scale then yes but I think that is your most efficient option. I doubt every night after hiking 20 to 30 miles you are going to want to hunt for things to burn to cook your dinner. Especially if it is already dark outside.
Lone Wolf
10-30-2008, 11:24
they're LNT if you put the empties in the trash
Worrying about empty canisters and war gas is kind of looking too close at things. There has to be more ways to make your life in general more eco friendly and less war friendly than a dozen cans of stove fuel on a thru hike.
mountain squid
10-30-2008, 11:27
the Kelly Kettle.
any ideas folks?
Just some thoughts:
This thing looks very heavy and extremely bulky and as tucker0104 just mentioned, at the end of the day you may not want to scrounge for burnables.
See you on the trail,
mt squid
Just a thought... isn't propane a natural gas? I think we get most of the natural gas we use here in the states, from the states themselves and not from overseas. I could be wrong though.
Technically they are 'Leave No Trace', which one of the beefs I have with 'Leave No Trace'. That said, I have a Kelly Kettle but I would not use one in more sensitive regions where the narrow over-generallized 'Leave No Trace' mantra truly makes sense. Wouldn't use a canister stove either. Probably would use an alcohol stove, except at really high altitudes, where I haven't been yet. I think it depends on where you plan on hiking.
But like you debris type stoves are my first choice.
Kelly Kettles and other 'storm kettle' type stoves work very well.
Hobbo stoves take a little more skill, but can work very well also.
There are collapsable stoves, along the same idea, varying in size.
Sierra Zip type stoves that use an electric fan work well, but aren't primitive enough for my taste?
Size matters. Larger wood stoves might be more suitable for a larger groups, but also take a little longer to get started. Small solo stoves can be very trick to get and keep going, but good ones are usually good enough for 2 people. They are the most challenging and the most interesting in my opinion, and I hike solo mostly. The Kelly Kettle works very well in all conditions, but is not so good for melting snow. There are ways around that. The Hobbo stove needs to be built a little bigger than you might think, especially in cold wet and extreme cold conditions, because it loses more heat to the environment and so you need a little more critical mass. Hope that helps.
There is also the 3 rock option, which is a fine option and worth practicing. If you have time to dig into the ground or pile some rocks you can make a very efficient wood cook stove. Takes time though, and you have to be more careful about the impact and fire hazard.
There is also the 3 rock option, which is a fine option and worth practicing. If you have time to dig into the ground or pile some rocks you can make a very efficient wood cook stove. Takes time though, and you have to be more careful about the impact and fire hazard.
Stones be better rocks are heavy:-?:-?
Montana Mac
10-30-2008, 11:47
Which is more LNT
Digging up rocks to make a cook fire, scouring through the woods looking for fuel, burning the fuel, then "dumping out" or leaving the unburned wood/ash?
or
The footprints left hiking out with your canister? :-?
Don't get me wrong - I have cooked many meals over a fire. I'm not saying the fire is wrong.
Stones be better rocks are heavy:-?:-?:-?
Dang. I knew I was doing something wrong. LOL
Which is more LNT
Digging up rocks to make a cook fire, scouring through the woods looking for fuel, burning the fuel, then "dumping out" or leaving the unburned wood/ash?
or
The footprints left hiking out with your canister? :-?
Don't get me wrong - I have cooked many meals over a fire. I'm not saying the fire is wrong.One is more LNT, but the other is more Sustainable if done right. The most appropriate solutions depends on the location though, and each persons own understanding.
Just a thought... isn't propane a natural gas? I think we get most of the natural gas we use here in the states, from the states themselves and not from overseas. I could be wrong though.
You're mostly right. Most, but not all natural gas we use comes from the US. Depends on where you live really. Liquid natural gas (LNG) has been imported by ship into Boston for more than 30 years. There are also terminals in Maryland and Louisiana. In addition, at least one offshore terminal is now operational in the Gulf of Mexico and many more are planned or under construction on all three coasts. As demand continues to outstrip supply (especially in the NE), we'll get more and more imported gas.
BTW - Currently, I think most of our imported gas comes from Algeria.
max patch
10-30-2008, 12:03
they're LNT if you put the empties in the trash
LNT for the woods, perhaps, but how about the footprint required to make the container? How about the space the container takes up in the landfill?
LNT for the woods, perhaps, but how about the footprint required to make the container? How about the space the container takes up in the landfill?
Just going back where it came from.
Lone Wolf
10-30-2008, 13:38
LNT for the woods, perhaps, but how about the footprint required to make the container? How about the space the container takes up in the landfill?
footprint? huh?
TJ aka Teej
10-30-2008, 13:43
Good question, and good discussion!
The source of the contents of your cannister depends on where the cannister was manufactured. We're not at war over the contents. If you recycle cannisters (burn out the contents, poke a hole) after your hikes you're LNT (which really means Leaving No Trace Of Your Hike On The Trail).
Lots of traces from natural gas drilling coming near trails in the Appalachian Plateaus soon. A view of some of these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QefLQKLb5co Already had a fellow use a pending gas well as an apparent excuse to kick the trail near our cabin off his private land.
Overall, homemade alcohol stoves are probably the most "green".
Use recyclable material (soda cans)
Uses renewable resource (grain)
Nothing to dispose of for the most part (esp. if you buy alcohol in bulk)
Of course, there is the cost of making/shipping/disposing of the materials to make such a stove.
A homemade wood stove could possibly be the "greenest" stove in certain heavily wooded areas, too (the bulk of the Appalachians). But, only if a few people use wood stove as their primary stove.
An alcohol stove is probably easier to use than a wood stove.
As others mentioned, in certain areas you can recycle the stove. (Still not 100% clear on whether it applies to all areas...)
Flush2wice
10-30-2008, 14:11
If you really want to be LNT then you should immediately go feed yourself to an alligator.
Two Speed
10-30-2008, 14:16
There is a cost associated with putting anything into a landfill. A partial list would include:
The land for the fill must be purchased
Current regs for new landfills include double liners, leachate collection systems, monitoring systems to check water quality in surface and groundwater downgradient from the fill, which makes for some fierce construction costs.
Compaction equipment (special articulated earth movers) to compact fill as placed and diesel to operate them
Specialized (and very expensive) bulldozer(s) and diesel to place the daily cap
Personnel to operate the compactors and 'dozers
Maintenance for the compacting and earth moving equipment required to operate the fill operations. FWIW landfill is notorious for being hard on the equipment
Closure costs include placing the permanent impermeable cap, landscaping, usually just grass and monitoring the landfill for some number of years, 20 IIRC
Even if it's assumed that an existing landfill, without all those gee-whiz features is used it still had to be assumed that it'll need replaced one day, so when tipping fees are calculated all of these costs have to be considered. Either that or a nasty cost can be passed on. Sometimes the "avoided" cost of throwing something away is substantial.
Recycling is fun, too.
Have to have a place to do it, just like a landfill
A lot of recyclables are considered hazardous, requiring special handling techniques
Recycled materials have to be stored until there's enough around to make it worth loading a truck to send it down the road
Staff is required to sort and handle materials
Short version: landfills ain't free. Recycling isn't either, but usually the avoided cost along with the value of the recovered material is less expensive than throwing something away, but not always. Obviously a lot of economic factors, some of which change wildly on occasion.
If you really want to be LNT then you should immediately go feed yourself to an alligator.Well, except for the additional alligator droppings, yeah, that would be correct.
Jim Adams
10-30-2008, 15:03
IMO the alcohol stove is the least green and most dangerous. The fuel is usually purchased in a non-recycled plastic bottle and it does produce a fairly large carbon foot print to make and manufacture but probably my biggest reason for thinking that is... all of the burned tables, shelves and shelter floors from spilled alcohol stoves.
geek
You also have to consider the resources and energy that goes into the production and distribution and ultimate disposal of the fuel and fuel canister, including all the facilities and processes and resources that directly and indirectly support its entire life-cycle.
It gets complicated. Most places a small wood wire is much simpler, and better for the environment. That said, we do alot worse in our current lifestyles than disposable fuel canisters, but to simple bring a pint of water to boil, its got to be up there amongst the most harmful ways to do it. Might most appropriate when climbing tall mountains though, and there are much worse things to do than climbing tall mountains. Everything has an impact. LNT implies otherwise, though it is still useful in many situations. Sustainability should be our goal. Anything short of sustainability is not sustainable. Sustainability needs alot more work however. Sustainability is a work in progress.
IMO the alcohol stove is the least green and most dangerous. The fuel is usually purchased in a non-recycled plastic bottle and it does produce a fairly large carbon foot print to make and manufacture but probably my biggest reason for thinking that is... all of the burned tables, shelves and shelter floors from spilled alcohol stoves.
geek
Metal container in bulk:
http://www.omnisterra.com/botany/cp/slides/tc/pics/img1017.jpg
natural gas mining:
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/6/65/Oil_sands_open_pit_mining.jpg
Coors plant (Which provides dentarured alcohol as part of the brewing process. They use some for fuel, ship rest of it):
http://www.dickensons.org/Golden/Coors%20Brewery.jpg
Enough said from me.
A homemade wood stove could possibly be the "greenest" stove in certain heavily wooded areas, too (the bulk of the Appalachians). But, only if a few people use wood stove as their primary stove.Very good point. If everyone on the AT used a Kelly Kettle, for example, how much biomass fuel would that represent? Without doing the math I would think it would be unsustainable in terms of its impact on the environment over large sections of the AT, perhaps even most of the AT, even if heroic measures were taken to restrict use of certain types of biomass material, and some biomass material was transported from some locations and made available in others. Hard to say, but it makes sense that the best practice, meaning most sustainable while permitting the most traffic, is most likely a combination of woodstoves, alcohol stoves, and perhaps other types. Not all that different than today, but a more sustainable mix in terms of both global and local impact. I think LNT practices will increase, but more sustainable product life cycles will also play an increasing role both in our hiking lifestyles and our daily lives. We still have choices, but in the future we will be increasingly compelled to make more sustainable choices. Not sure how successful we will be in the long run.
Sustainability is what you make it.
IMO the alcohol stove is the least green and most dangerous. The fuel is usually purchased in a non-recycled plastic bottle and it does produce a fairly large carbon foot print to make and manufacture but probably my biggest reason for thinking that is... all of the burned tables, shelves and shelter floors from spilled alcohol stoves.
geekGood points there also. Some rather funny, but still somewhat serious. Not sure about most dangerous. Very safe fuel in many ways. I think alcohol stoves can be amongst the most green and sustainable methods for hiking stoves, in theory, but we still need to find more sustainable methods for the manufacture and distrubution of the alcohol fuel, including the manufacture and distrubution and reuse and recycling of the fuel containers.
Room for improvement on many fronts, including current best practices.
Natural gas is mostly methane. Methane can come from natural gas, or more direct natural sources. Similarly, alcohol might come from fossil fuel sources or from more direct natural sources. We need more sustainable practices for all energy sources and industrial and consumer products and processes. Lots of work to be done. Perhaps the most important thing about the choices we make while hiking in the grand scheme of things is that we might be more apt to think about such things and be more open to changing our ways in adopting more sustainable products, processes, and lifestyles.
Stove choice makes very little difference at this stage, but its something to think about.
OldStormcrow
10-30-2008, 15:43
I really don't think that 7oz of fuel is what we are at war for. If you want to take it to a 17 on a 1 to 10 scale then yes but I think that is your most efficient option. I doubt every night after hiking 20 to 30 miles you are going to want to hunt for things to burn to cook your dinner. Especially if it is already dark outside. With my Sierra stove I used to just sit in one spot near the shelter and feed it the little wood "giblets" that the ground is carpeted with, mostly left overs from other folks breaking up firewood. The areas in and around the shelters in the Smokies are carpeted with the stuff. I also used to carry a small stuff sack tied to the outside of my pack so I could pick up nice tidbits of cooking wood and pine cone starters as I hiked or took water breaks. Even on rainy days you will be passing tons o' dry stuff along the side of the trail under small rock overhangs. The single AA battery that it runs on doesn't use much juice and you can use the half worn-out old ones that you have taken out of your flashlight for a good while. The main thing I hated was all the soot on the pots. I usually just tossed my pot and stove, soot and all, into a large zip-lock before putting them back into my pack. They do make nice "portable campfires" on cold nights in no fire areas, though!
skinewmexico
10-30-2008, 16:03
i don't really like my canister stove only because of the canister disposal and it uses a form of gas; which we are at war for.
You think too much. Wait, I take that back. But you should probably learn the difference in gasoline, and natural gas (methane/propane/butane). Indoctrination lives!
skinewmexico
10-30-2008, 16:05
Metal container in bulk:
natural gas mining:
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/6/65/Oil_sands_open_pit_mining.jpg
That looks suspiciously like a coal mine, rather than a natural gas well.
That looks suspiciously like a coal mine, rather than a natural gas well.
Actually, looking at where I pulled the image from it is from a "sands pit".
Mea culpa.
Knock yourself out:
http://images.google.com/images?q=natural%20gas%20mining&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi
Homer&Marje
10-30-2008, 16:31
I would bet I could find some of us stovies out there that would disagree on the Alcohol stoves only being used for boiling water.
I simply made a less efficient stove the other day and found it's great for simmering. I can carry 6 different stoves with me if I "Really" needed to I.E. being a little obsessive compulsive about having varied dinners every night.
Back to the question, we are not at war for stove fuel, and with the reproducibility of alcohol it is the easiest and most accessible fuel on the trail. Secondly, carry an alcohol stove and a homemade pot cozy and you can use 1 oz of fuel a day for a while. It's all about efficiency.
phillycheze
10-30-2008, 17:13
damn yall. i didn't mean to piss anyone off or cause people to banter each other. i was just asking a question but i do like the feedback.
so, just because days can be hard the fire stove is out from what i've read. how can that be when one of the first hikers did this trail with keds and a duffel bag...
alcohol stoves are dangerous are aren't they? oh yeah, how do u construct them so they simmer? my 'simmer ring' didn't seem to lower the flames down at all.
and canister stoves seem to be 50% for and 50% against.
-keep it going-
so, just because days can be hard the fire stove is out from what i've read. how can that be when one of the first hikers did this trail with keds and a duffel bag...
alcohol stoves are dangerous are aren't they? oh yeah, how do u construct them so they simmer? my 'simmer ring' didn't seem to lower the flames down at all.
Unless you use an alcohol stove in a very dry environment (and not careful), alcohol stoves are very safe.
Though I've only done "boil and cook" type meals with an alcohol stove, you can make a simmer ring fairly easily:
http://www.trailquest.net/simring.html
http://www.hikingwebsite.com/gear/homemade/simmer.htm
and so on... (do a google search. The first link is the easiest IMO)
If you want to simmer, you are probably better off with a canister or a commercial wood stove (like the Zip) however as it is easier.
As for fires (outside of a stove)..well, you be the judge. Wet wood is a PITA regardless of the year. Grandma Gatewood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandma_Gatewood) (she of the keds fame), besides being a lightweight backpacking pioneer
, was champion yogier from what I understand. Cooking is easy when other people do it for you. :)
Earl Shaffer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Shaffer) did cook on fires, but, again, the trail was much different 60 yrs ago. Many lean-to areas no longer have fire rings,for example.
If you do go with a wood stove, PM Weary. He used a zip stove on his thru-hike and was very pleased with the results. He can give you some tips on its use. Zen stoves has a link for constructing not only for alcohol stoves, but a homemade wood stoves as well.
INFO: http://zenstoves.net/Wood.htm
DIY WOOD STOVE: http://zenstoves.net/LinksGeneral-DIY.htm#WoodBurningStoves
Good luck...
Homer&Marje
10-30-2008, 19:32
damn yall. i didn't mean to piss anyone off or cause people to banter each other. i was just asking a question but i do like the feedback.
we are at war over all gas. or we'd be using it a **** ton more here in the states. and i bet someone that says we aren't has a natural gas powered car. well, probably not. car manufactures and oil companies suppress natural gas progress so i think we are at war over it. IMO. who the f*** really knows anyway?
so, just because days can be hard the fire stove is out from what i've read. how can that be when one of the first hikers did this trail with keds and a duffel bag...
alcohol stoves are dangerous are aren't they? oh yeah, how do u construct them so they simmer? my 'simmer ring' didn't seem to lower the flames down at all.
and canister stoves seem to be 50% for and 50% against.
-keep it going-
If we were so concerned about natural gas we would try and capture all the natural gas that Kuwait lets evaporate off of their oil fields. Oil rigs in the united states and most countries are set up to capture natural gas deposits that are like bubbles near oil deposits deep in the earth. Kuwait makes so much money on oil that they would probably lose money to try and capture the natural gas and get rid of it virtually competing against their oil. So they just let it escape into the air instead of using it as cleaner burning energy. Wrap your brain around that concept.
Lone Wolf
10-30-2008, 20:04
i use a pocket rocket with a canister. when it's used up i toss it. no guilt. i sleep at night.
smokymtnsteve
10-30-2008, 20:06
i use a pocket rocket with a canister. when it's used up i toss it. no guilt. i sleep at night.
how's the exxon stock doin LW
Lone Wolf
10-30-2008, 20:08
how's the exxon stock doin LW
terrible. that's why i've been workin' this past year
MARKO HANGMAN III
10-30-2008, 20:18
If you really want to be LNT then you should immediately go feed yourself to an alligator.
Now that's funny right there, I don't care who you are!
Lone Wolf
10-30-2008, 20:19
Now that's funny right there, I don't care who you are!
gators like small bites. crocs like large stuff like humans.
I don't think people should feel guilty about their stove or gear choices either. I think the most important thing about hiking is that it gives us the opportunity to think about such things, in isolation from the mainstream economy and in closer connection with nature, but it also allows us to do and think about alot of other important things also, in much the same way. We might discuss such things when we are out there or in here, we might even argue about such things when we are out there, but I think we can all agree that we need to be free to roam around out there and reflect on life in each our own way. Or to do and think of nothing at all, which itself might be the most noble and reverent thing we can do. God only knows eh.
Homer&Marje
10-30-2008, 20:41
I'm poor, don't have exxon stock, don't ever plan too. Who would want the worry in troubling times?
Regardless, I prefer recycled material stoves... second hand equipment, unless someone want's to buy me new stuff:D Alcohol is clean burning and cheap enough to me and hiking is probably the least invasive thing we can do to the environment while on vacation or leisure activity.
I think we can all agree on that... at least the last part, the other stuff I could care less if you agree. Here . I will highlight the major points
After thoughts are great.:banana
Dancing Banana! Now that's invasive.
I think we should go out to the woods and pack enough for a year and not come back in until we have spent a complete 24 hour period without thinking about Leave No Trace or Sustainability or even Hike Your Own Hike.
Lone Wolf
10-30-2008, 20:55
I'm poor, don't have exxon stock, don't ever plan too. Who would want the worry in troubling times?
really? you live on the r.i./mass. border. where do live and work exactly?
Lone Wolf
10-30-2008, 20:56
I think we should go out to the woods and pack enough for a year and not come back in until we have spent a complete 24 hour period without thinking about Leave No Trace or Sustainability or even Hike Your Own Hike.
you gonna get a sabbatical and take your family with you/ unlikely. cyber talk
It was sort of a joke and a reference to a story I read, maybe in grade six, where these boys had a club and in order to join they had to sit in a chair and go an hour without thinking of the word 'elephant'.
Lone Wolf
10-30-2008, 20:58
you gonna get a sabbatical and take your family with you/ unlikely. cyber talk
do you even have a wife and kid and a job? you're on here 20 hours a day. i bet they're happy IF there is a THEY
Is today pick on JAK day? I missed the announcement.
Yeah I do have a family. Yeah sometimes I'm on here 20 hours a day. I'm working on my thesis. When I get that done I will see my family more. When I learn to stay off here longer I will get my thesis done. I know your booting me in the ass with the best of intentions. Thanks Lone Wolf your a good guy, and I mean that.
Alligator
10-30-2008, 21:06
Back to topic folks please.
Homer&Marje
10-30-2008, 21:30
really? you live on the r.i./mass. border. where do live and work exactly?
What exactly does this have to do with LNT? You're trolling again.
I was stating that as someone that's not financially "sound" I prefer to use cheap and viable products while camping, at the same time a few less aluminum cans lying around.
Lone Wolf
10-30-2008, 21:44
What exactly does this have to do with LNT? You're trolling again.
I was stating that as someone that's not financially "sound" I prefer to use cheap and viable products while camping, at the same time a few less aluminum cans lying around.
you said you were "poor".describe what that means
Bare Bear
11-04-2008, 15:00
Looking at the big picture of a thru hiker versus living at home:
Who is using total fewer sustainable resources? When I am out hiking I do not watch TV, the a/c or heat is whatever the weather dictates, I do not use hot water shower every day, I am not using electric typing on this computer, etc. etc. I would guess I am using about 1/100 th or less of the earths resources as a hiker than as a typical human in the USA living in a city.
Homer&Marje
11-04-2008, 18:22
you said you were "poor".describe what that means
Meaning I have, and the wife has, a job which pays enough to pay our bills, occasionally go hiking, and not much more. Being 200k in debt because of medical bills and insurance that doesn't cover specialist care... I'd consider myself "not rich by any standards". Good enough?
garlic08
11-04-2008, 19:41
OK, back on topic.
Mags, I respectfully disagree that alcohol stoves are safe. GP and I have had a couple of close calls. They're a little too easy to knock or blow over, and the blue flame is practically invisible in daylight and very hot.
Stove safety is one reason I go cookless now. Another benefit of going cookless, I realized this year, is that it may be greener and more LNT than most other options.
I met Radioactive Man, and was really impressed that he was attempting to burn only grain alcohol in his stove. He didn't want to introduce even the trace amounts of poisons in denatured alcohol into the environment.
Homer&Marje
11-04-2008, 19:45
OK, back on topic.
Mags, I respectfully disagree that alcohol stoves are safe. GP and I have had a couple of close calls. They're a little too easy to knock or blow over, and the blue flame is practically invisible in daylight and very hot.
Stove safety is one reason I go cookless now. Another benefit of going cookless, I realized this year, is that it may be greener and more LNT than most other options.
I met Radioactive Man, and was really impressed that he was attempting to burn only grain alcohol in his stove. He didn't want to introduce even the trace amounts of poisons in denatured alcohol into the environment.
Respectfully, showing a tiny bit of caution with an alcohol stove is all it takes. You might not be able to see the flame in daylight, but you stick a match in, it goes "POOF"...just a tiny poof, but if you stick a match into alcohol you can be pretty sure it's on fire. Putting a wind screen around it will help shade the glare of the sun making it visible to put the pot on, and it's not silent once it gets going, you can tell when it has run out of fuel almost instantly.
Mags, I respectfully disagree that alcohol stoves are safe. GP and I have had a couple of close calls. They're a little too easy to knock or blow over, and the blue flame is practically invisible in daylight and very hot.
And using a chainsaw is not safe if you don't use precautions either...
Never had a problem in X amount of miles. Then again, I tend to pay attention.
YMMV.
I met Radioactive Man, and was really impressed that he was attempting to burn only grain alcohol in his stove.
Dual use, too! :)
smokymtnsteve
11-04-2008, 19:49
using a chainsaw is not safe without precautions?...
wow I never worn a rubber while cutting wood:eek:
using a chainsaw is not safe without precautions?...
wow I never worn a rubber while cutting wood:eek:
There is a bad thought I am thinking involving "rubber" and "wood"..but anyway..
If you are not a bit cautious while using a chainsaw, then this comes to mind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ian-GvsKksQ&feature=related
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uPZ3N3SE4Y&feature=related)
smokymtnsteve
11-04-2008, 19:52
pack it in ..pack it out
Does it really make much of a difference which stove you use? No.:-?
Go worry about something that makes a difference.
Buy yourself a small 4 cylinder car or better yet, ride a bike instead of driving a car.
Don't fall into the Walmart consumption trap. Live in a small house instead of a large ostentatious one.
Dances with Mice
11-04-2008, 20:05
Grain ethanol is distilled, rather obviously, from solutions of carefully spoiled grain.
Both ethanol and methanol used for solvents or fuel additives, backpacker fuel, is made from natural gas.
Grain ethanol is distilled, rather obviously, from solutions of carefully spoiled grain.
Both ethanol and methanol used for solvents or fuel additives, backpacker fuel, is made from natural gas.
Backpackers make natural gas too; spend some time in a shelter for proof:D
Homer&Marje
11-04-2008, 21:35
I learned how to use a chainsaw when I was 9 years old. Maybe that's why I can use an alcohol stove.
Oh, and I have owned a gas stove at home so I know not to put my hand near it while it's on:D