View Full Version : Shelter Graffiti
zero day
11-05-2008, 10:11
On a recent section hike I was appalled at the level of graffiti on the shelter walls—even the relatively new Mountaineer Falls shelter. Some of this resembles gang graffiti most commonly seen on the sides of rail cars. What’s with this? I am thinking there people on the trail for the wrong reasons, possibly including some thru hikers.
Montana Mac
11-05-2008, 11:12
When I was a kid my father had a saying:
“Fools names as faces are often found in public places”
It still holds true today, but now its just not their names:mad:
garlic08
11-05-2008, 11:24
Yeah, I'll join you in that rant. That was one of the reasons I did not stay in shelters on my hike, many of them just didn't feel like nice places--grafitti, trash, TP strewn about, food left for scavengers. Some idiot put his name on every shelter I saw in the northernmost 200 miles (maybe a SOBO I passed along the way), so yes, long distance hikers are definitely part of the problem, too.
My dad always said don't complain about it unless you're doing something about it. I carried small litter out, but I didn't know what to do about the grafitti without a paintbrush or sander. The maintainers have my infinite respect and gratitude for what they're faced with.
Some idiot put his name on every shelter I saw in the northernmost 200 miles (maybe a SOBO I passed along the way), so yes, long distance hikers are definitely part of the problem, too. "Cubby 08" carved in huge letters
Lone Wolf
11-05-2008, 11:54
it's just graffiti. it ain't gonna ruin your nights sleep :rolleyes:
Agree with LW.
Some of the graffiti is humorous and interesting reading, some may be historical in some respects. I will say, if I ran into gang-type it would be a disappointment but not the end of the world. Graffiti is better in the shelters and on tables than it would be on trees or rocks.
Some in the AT community consider the shelters themselves an abomination, so graffiti is just an incremental assault.
Better off without some of it? Sure. A major problem? Probably not.
Lone Wolf
11-05-2008, 12:27
Some in the AT community consider the shelters themselves an abomination, so graffiti is just an incremental assault.
Better off without some of it? Sure. A major problem? Probably not.
shelters, fire pits and the areas around shelters are a scar
Blissful
11-05-2008, 12:42
The graffiti in privies can be quite interesting.
On a recent section hike I was appalled at the level of graffiti on the shelter walls—even the relatively new Mountaineer Falls shelter. Some of this resembles gang graffiti most commonly seen on the sides of rail cars. What’s with this? I am thinking there people on the trail for the wrong reasons, possibly including some thru hikers.
this is probably a great irony of the shelter system. The types of folks who carve or paint grafitti at the shelters are the types who probably wouldn't have came had the shelters not been there. so are the shelters themselves to blame for their own graffiti?
ponder over that one a while.
so are the shelters themselves to blame for their own graffiti?
Quite possibly, but so are rocky viewpoints - they often attract graffiti in PA.
The types of folks who carve or paint grafitti at the shelters are the types who probably wouldn't have came [sic] had the shelters not been there. So are the shelters themselves to blame for their own graffiti?
No, but I frequently see this type of illogical argument here by the anti-shelter crowd. One who buys this reasoning might also conclude that rocks painted by the same kind of people are to be blamed for the graffiti on them.
So, therefore, we ought to remove all the rocks from the backcountry!:rolleyes:
Obviously, it's the people who engage in this activity who are to be blamed. I find it disappointing so many here seem willing to condone this kind of backcountry "art."
Lone Wolf
11-05-2008, 13:32
this is probably a great irony of the shelter system. The types of folks who carve or paint grafitti at the shelters are the types who probably wouldn't have came had the shelters not been there.
correct. those that use them are generally afraid of the woods, bugs, rain, etc.
No, but I frequently see this type of illogical argument here by the anti-shelter crowd. One who buys this reasoning should also conclude that rocks painted by the same kind of people are to be blamed for the graffiti on them.
So, therefore, we ought to remove all the rocks from the backcountry!:rolleyes:
This is illogical reasoning as well, in the form of a false analogy. Shelters provide refuge to the people who deface them and in some cases these folks would not be out there if not for the shelter. This cannot be said of rocks!
Quite possibly, but so are rocky viewpoints - they often attract graffiti in PA.
well, rocky viewpoints exist naturally. do shelters?
well, rocky viewpoints exist naturally. do shelters?
Caves do.:p
Thank you for your admission. The blame still rests with those who deface shelters and privies, not those who constructed those amenities.
Give it up while you still can save face.:)
SOG
THEmapMAKER
11-05-2008, 14:03
I rented a locked PATC cabin in Maryalnd. There was a huge penis carved in the table that is kept in the cabin. My wife and I found it very offensive. Adults are not the only ones who use shelters and cabins. Young children use them as well.
Lone Wolf
11-05-2008, 14:04
The blame still rest with those who deface shelters and privies, not those who constructed those amenities.
SOG
the blame rests with those that built the actual trail and shelters. both scars on the land
Wolf, go chase your tail!:D
If you are really worried about it, you could carry a can of brown spray paint and color over the graffiti with a "natural" color that is easy on the eyes...
Thank you for your admission. The blame still rest with those who deface shelters and privies, not those who constructed those amenities.
Give it up while you still can save face.:)
SOG
haha.
well, i did not really blame those that built the shelters directly, but rather i blamed the shelters themselves. i guess that is an indirect blame of the builders.
bottom line: The presence of shelters will attract the very people who will deface them.
well, rocky viewpoints exist naturally.
Although the rocks might be there naturally, the viewpoints are often cleared by maintainers, at least in PA and nearby. Look closely over the edge and you will likely see many saplings cut.
When does graffiti become art to be protected?
Petroglyphs in Utah ~1200 AD:
http://geology.com/articles/petroglyphs/newspaper-rock-petroglyphs.jpg
William Clark carving, 1806:
http://www.quiblit.com/Portals/0/Dec2007I/ClarkSignature.jpg
1935 Basque carving near Tahoe:
http://www.fs.fed.us/wildflowers/communities/aspen/images/carvings/images/1935_carving_lhanson.jpg
Nothing to do with the discussion directly. Just in a philosophical mood......
this is probably a great irony of the shelter system. The types of folks who carve or paint grafitti at the shelters are the types who probably wouldn't have came had the shelters not been there. so are the shelters themselves to blame for their own graffiti?
ponder over that one a while.Dude, your arguement has more holes in it than a yard sale collander. By your arguement then, is it your fault if you're standing on the street and someone comes up to you and kicks you in the nuts? After all, it's not their fault you just happened to be there when they felt like kicking. Bad analogy? Nope, two things are just sitting there (the shelter and your nuts) and someone comes along and commits a crime against them (defacing and kicking).
Don't get me wrong, I don't like shelters. However, I don't think it's ok to deface them just because they are there.
When does graffiti become art to be protected?
You ask a good question which begs a simple answer, one which I suspect is not easily found.
In my view, on the AT there is no point at which painting rocks, carving on live trees or AT shelters rises to the level of art. It is after all, a National Scenic Trail, not a 2000-mile art show where people show off their talents and contemplate the works of other itinerant artists. People should write or draw in the shelter registers if they must express themselves.
Lone Wolf
11-05-2008, 16:17
there is no point where carvings on live trees or AT shelters rises to the level of art.
maybe not in your eyes. i like shelter carvings. i think mt. rushmore and that crazy horse monument are ugly scars
In my view, there is no point where carvings on live trees or AT shelters rises to the level of art.
The Basque carvings on aspens are now protected by the USFS:
http://www.fs.fed.us/wildflowers/communities/aspen/carvings.shtml
But, don't leave any of your own they say...
So, does graffiti that is 70 yrs old then become historic?
I am not arguing pro or con against shelter graffiti. Just saying that while graffiti in shelters is aesthetically bad to many of us (myself included), at some point it may be considered art and/or historical significance.
Odd point to ponder.
Lone Wolf
11-05-2008, 16:23
The Basque carvings on aspens are now protected by the USFS:
http://www.fs.fed.us/wildflowers/communities/aspen/carvings.shtml
But, don't leave any of your own they say...
So, does graffiti that is 70 yrs old then become historic?
I am not arguing pro or con against shelter graffiti. Just saying that while graffiti in shelters is aesthetically bad to many of us (myself included), at some point it may be considered art and/or historical significance.
Odd point to ponder.
if earl shaffer had carved something years ago thesame whiners would be fighting to protect his carvings :rolleyes:
if earl shaffer had carved something years ago the same whiners would be fighting to protect his carvings :rolleyes:
I'm not sure if I'm one of your whiners, but I wouldn't. A replaced shelter was dismantled years ago in Pennsylvania. On one of the chestnut logs from which it was built was the name of a club member and a date, some 50 years prior as I recall. Some thought the carved portion of the log should be preserved. I thought it should be incinerated along with the rest of the shelter.
smokymtnsteve
11-05-2008, 16:43
I'm not sure if I'm one of your whiners, but I wouldn't. A replaced shelter was dismantled years ago in Pennsylvania. On one of the chestnut logs from which it was built was the name of a club member and a date, some 50 years prior as I recall. Some thought the carved portion of the log should be preserved. I thought it should be incinerated along with the rest of the shelter.
man I'd love to have those chestnut logs..to burn chestnut logs is a SIN>
smokymtnsteve
11-05-2008, 16:45
on rocky top inthe smoies thier are some cravings in a rock..very old..protected...but if you craved inthe rock you would be fined.
of course native american artifacts like broken pottery and such is usually from trash heaps left by the noble savages.
man I'd love to have those chestnut logs..to burn chestnut logs is a SIN>
I doubt they would have been of interest to you had you seen them. They were all well under 6 inches in diameter, many badly split and covered with multiple layers of paint and/or stain. Last time I visited the shelter site I think they were still where they were left to rot that day in the gullied trail to it's spring.
Montana Mac
11-05-2008, 16:59
Guess it has been going on for a long time -doesn't mean I have to like it.
In just over 28 months-from May 1804 to September 1806-the expedition of Meriwether Lewis and William Clark traveled more than 8,000 miles. More than a quarter of that distance was spent traversing Montana by boat, on horseback and afoot:
Pompeys Pillar where Clark carved his signature in a large sandstone rock along the Yellowstone River.
Pompeys Pillar where Clark carved his signature in a large sandstone rock along the Yellowstone River.
The only physical sign of their expedition they purposely left (that we know of).
Then there is the KILROY WAS HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilroy_was_here) graffiti. Yet,that is a cultural icon.
The Anasazi graffiti is rather old. But there has been cases of Roman graffiti even older. Pretty much the modern equivalent of "Jack loves Jane" (except in Latin). Same thing you'd find in a shelter (minus the Latin.... :) ) Because it is almost 2000 yrs old, it is protected.
As I said, odd point to ponder...
earlyriser26
11-05-2008, 17:15
I would like to second the motion of removing all the rocks.
NICKTHEGREEK
11-05-2008, 17:23
Caves do.:p
There we are, blame it on those French cavemen who painted animals on cave walls.
the blame rests with those that built the actual trail and shelters. both scars on the land
Stop whining about the trail being a scar on the land. If you don't like the trail, just stay away.
Weary
Lone Wolf
11-05-2008, 18:01
Stop whining about the trail being a scar on the land. If you don't like the trail, just stay away.
Weary
stop whining about signs on a tree leading to WHL. if you don't like WHL, just stay away.
the trail and shelters are scars. fact
Homer&Marje
11-05-2008, 18:16
it's just graffiti. it ain't gonna ruin your nights sleep :rolleyes:
Sure won't ruin mine. I like to read all the ones to see how old the shelter is. Some of the ones from the 70's are great:D
Swear I saw a big LW carved up in New Hampshire? Probly just a coincidence since it wasn't the smokies:rolleyes:
stop whining about signs on a tree leading to WHL. if you don't like WHL, just stay away.
the trail and shelters are scars. fact
You have your facts wrong, LW. I don't object to the sign on a tree near the overgrown road that leads to WHL. I haven't seen it but hikers tell me it simply says, "Mahar ." The sign directs hikers to the shore of a great lake, where once stood an historic AT shelter -- incidentally, one of the first AT shelters I ever stayed at.
The next time I'm in the wilderness, I'll stop by and relive fond memories.
Weary
There we are, blame it on those French cavemen who painted animals on cave walls.
No bull there.
But we can still blame the French if you want.
Lone Wolf
11-05-2008, 19:19
Sure won't ruin mine. I like to read all the ones to see how old the shelter is. Some of the ones from the 70's are great:D
Swear I saw a big LW carved up in New Hampshire? Probly just a coincidence since it wasn't the smokies:rolleyes:
i don't stay in shelters in NH or the Smokys
The "Monkey wrench gang" wrote in a shelter if I remember right. Maybe thats how the signatures got started. Young kids heading out on an adventure of a lifetime sometimes are a little carefree. Some only know if what they have read in books on the trail. Maybe after reading Ed Garvey and reaching their first shelter and saw all of the signatures, they felt inclined to do so too.
I personnally don't care for the big drawings and the 4:20 stuff. Kids visiting the shelters with their parents shouldn't have to see this. "I" would try to set a better example for the youth on our trails. I guess alot of adults shouldn't have to see it either.
Lone Wolf
11-05-2008, 19:39
Kids visiting the shelters with their parents shouldn't have to see this. "I" would try to set a better example for the youth on our trails. I guess alot of adults shouldn't have to see it either.
kids see and hear much worse in thier daily 6 hours at school. this "issue" is a non-issue
What I allowed my son to see at home, and what he saw at school, is two different things.
smokymtnsteve
11-05-2008, 19:42
kids see and hear much worse in thier daily 6 hours at school. this "issue" is a non-issue
kids not only see and hear much worse at school they act worse than that.
smokymtnsteve
11-05-2008, 19:43
What I allowed my son to see at home, and what he saw at school, is two different things.
probably learnt more at school
girlnextdoor
11-05-2008, 19:44
I find it disappointing so many here seem willing to condone this kind of backcountry "art."
For good backcountry art check out Andy Goldsworthy's work
Lone Wolf
11-05-2008, 19:51
I find it disappointing so many here seem willing to condone this kind of backcountry "art."
what can you, me or anybody else do about it? i'll answer...absolutely nothing. time to stop sniveling about it and accept it
smokymtnsteve
11-05-2008, 19:54
what can you, me or anybody else do about it? i'll answer...absolutely nothing. time to stop sniveling about it and accept it
we kin git rid of them thar shelters...
Homer&Marje
11-05-2008, 20:09
Get used to the graffiti. Simple fact is, so many people have done it that everyone thinks it's mostly common place. So, I will agree with LW, stop sniveling. This all goes back to the why not to stay in shelters thread. If you don't like the crap that's written, don't look, don't pay attention or don't stay at a shelter.
Solutions are simple. It's coming up with the problem that's so complex.
Lone Wolf
11-05-2008, 20:10
Get used to the graffiti. Simple fact is, so many people have done it that everyone thinks it's mostly common place. So, I will agree with LW, stop sniveling. This all goes back to the why not to stay in shelters thread. If you don't like the crap that's written, don't look, don't pay attention or don't stay at a shelter.
Solutions are simple. It's coming up with the problem that's so complex.
and i agree with you
Holy crap...LW and Homer have kissed and made up. The world is a safer place. I have actually witnessed you two agreeing!!!Good for you guys!:D
Homer&Marje
11-05-2008, 20:19
Holy crap...LW and Homer have kissed and made up. The world is a safer place. I have actually witnessed you two agreeing!!!Good for you guys!:D
Trivial really.
The "Monkey wrench gang" wrote in a shelter if I remember right. Maybe thats how the signatures got started. Young kids heading out on an adventure of a lifetime sometimes are a little carefree. Some only know if what they have read in books on the trail. Maybe after reading Ed Garvey and reaching their first shelter and saw all of the signatures, they felt inclined to do so too.
I personnally don't care for the big drawings and the 4:20 stuff. Kids visiting the shelters with their parents shouldn't have to see this. "I" would try to set a better example for the youth on our trails. I guess alot of adults shouldn't have to see it either.
I can't imagine Ed Garvey inspiring vandalism.
NICKTHEGREEK
11-05-2008, 21:12
No bull there.
But we can still blame the French if you want.
Nah, I liked almost every Frenchie I've met, and they make great booze and food so let 'em paint
pyroman53
11-05-2008, 21:14
Wow...let it go. Some of that grafitti is pretty cool. Provides some distraction while waiting out a rainstorm. Never did it myself (and it was 1970 when we 16 year olds first hung out at George Outerbridge Shelter, Bake Oven Knob, etc), but I sure don't get all bent up about it. Bigger things to worry about...like all those marks along the trail made by hiking poles!!
Wow...let it go. Some of that grafitti is pretty cool. Provides some distraction while waiting out a rainstorm. Never did it myself (and it was 1970 when we 16 year olds first hung out at George Outerbridge Shelter, Bake Oven Knob, etc), but I sure don't get all bent up about it. Bigger things to worry about...like all those marks along the trail made by hiking poles!!
How cool would it look on your house?
pyroman53
11-05-2008, 21:29
What's next...mowing the grass around shelters? I do that at home too. I go to the woods to get away from all that. The woods are a "no worries" zone. I'm too busy enjoying the crap out of myself. The rest is just noise.
Ok, so its cool as long as its on others property. I understand.
What's next...mowing the grass around shelters? I do that at home too. I go to the woods to get away from all that. The woods are a "no worries" zone. I'm too busy enjoying the crap out of myself. The rest is just noise.
well said.
in my opinion, the grafitti in the shelters is very beneficial. It shows you what type of people the shelter system attracts to the trial. Its always better to get a dose of reality first hand than to be tempted to manufacture your own myths when you are ignorant.
Good point, but the people in this country choose to ignore reality.
Homer&Marje
11-05-2008, 22:02
Good point, but the people in this country choose to ignore reality.
You are ignoring reality if you think that carved graffiti on an outdoors shelter in the middle of the frickin' woods is important right now.
Read a newspaper. Don't get bent about someone carving "Dude I was here in '97 in the sickest rainstorm EVER!!! So bored, had to carve this message, Damn it's 420 HA HA, C U ALL AT Katahdin!!!!"
Get over it. it's a shelter in the MIDDLE OF THE WOODS!!!! It can handle a few scrapings. Especially since they do nothing to the structural integrity of the shelter. Unless people have started carving with machetes and blow torches nowadays. Maybe I'm not up on current shelter carving technologies.
You are ignoring reality if you think that carved graffiti on an outdoors shelter in the middle of the frickin' woods is important right now.
Read a newspaper. Don't get bent about someone carving "Dude I was here in '97 in the sickest rainstorm EVER!!! So bored, had to carve this message, Damn it's 420 HA HA, C U ALL AT Katahdin!!!!"
Get over it. it's a shelter in the MIDDLE OF THE WOODS!!!! It can handle a few scrapings. Especially since they do nothing to the structural integrity of the shelter. Unless people have started carving with machetes and blow torches nowadays. Maybe I'm not up on current shelter carving technologies.
Right on, burn baby burn.
Blissful
11-05-2008, 22:15
Look at the circular burn marks of alcohol stoves that are everywhere on shelter floors and picnic tables. Makes me wonder when a shelter will go up in flames because of its improper use.
Dances with Mice
11-05-2008, 22:22
It's all fun and games until somebody has to tote the paint and spend time repainting the shelter. Maintainers would really rather be doing something else.
Several shelters in Georgia were repainted this year, including Whitley Gap. Here's what it looked like before. (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=5766&catid=member&imageuser=1030)
That looks like the inside of a portajon, except they used english.
I find it disappointing so many here seem willing to condone this kind of backcountry "art" [shelter graffiti].
what can you, me or anybody else do about it? i'll answer...absolutely nothing. time to stop sniveling about it and accept it
Incorrect yet again! There is something many here could do: stop condoning it. It's almost as if some here are extending an invitation to readers add to it at their earliest convenience. Invite them to your home where you have the right to extend an invitation.
saimyoji
11-05-2008, 22:36
its my impression that the people who commit these works of art dont hang out on internet hiking forums. nor would the listen to your admonishments if they did.
Homer&Marje
11-05-2008, 22:53
Apparently you all have not seen these pictures I posted. I'll make them easilly accessible.
People need to be a little more responsible when handling fire.
I don't expect they would listen to admonishments, but they don't need encouragement.
Say what you will,everyone has different opinions on shelters. Like them or not,what gives a person the right to trash them ? Pretty simple question IMO.
What's next...mowing the grass around shelters? I do that at home too. I go to the woods to get away from all that. The woods are a "no worries" zone. I'm too busy enjoying the crap out of myself. The rest is just noise.
Ever notice how the shelter "noise" is mostly online? Besides, how can graffiti on a "scar" (shelter/privy/trail) be a "scar"?
more non-issue nonsense
saimyoji
11-05-2008, 23:15
yeah, lets focus on that giant flotilla of garbage spinning in the pacific ocean
yeah, lets focus on that giant flotilla of garbage spinning in the pacific ocean
garbage is everywhere. everyone should quit whining about it and simply bend over and pick some up once in awhile... but be sure to look over your shoulder first.
lets focus on that giant flotilla of garbage spinning in the pacific ocean
garbage is everywhere. everyone should quit whining about it and simply bend over and pick some up ...
I thought this thread's 'bout shelter graffiti.
I thought this thread's 'bout shelter graffiti.
it was, but it turned into a non-issue
Not according to the people who must deal with it. Maybe you missed post #67 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=720515&postcount=67)?
Not according to the people who must deal with it. Maybe you missed post #67 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=720515&postcount=67)?
painting shelters is like swimming against a tide of floating garbage
Wise Old Owl
11-06-2008, 00:09
If you are really worried about it, you could carry a can of brown spray paint and color over the graffiti with a "natural" color that is easy on the eyes...
With one very stupid exception. If you see paintballed trees, the next rain will remove the color. Do not spray paint as one "idiot" did at Hawk Mountain, It clearly made more work for the trail maintainers.
painting shelters is like swimming against a tide of floating garbage
No, it's more like washing dishes. Everyone knows people are more apt to add a dirty dish to a sink where others have added theirs than to a clean sink.
whatever. i never graffitied before, but i might start now.
"Don't write here - so says SOG!" :)
"Don't write here - so says SOG!" :)
Speak for yourself!
Odd Thomas
11-06-2008, 05:55
the blame rests with those that built the actual trail and shelters. both scars on the land
heh, without the trail and the shelter there'd be no reason to leave it undeveloped into a walmart/bath and beyond parking lot. :p
Homer&Marje
11-06-2008, 07:59
But we can carve our name in the side of the Bed Bath and Beyond right?
Yea, I don't much like it, still I think it is better to mess up the shelters, instead of the trees & rocks.
I have to say that MY favorite shelter graffiti has to be at the Muskrat shelter, much of it is upside down as the current shelter used the wood from the former "A frame" shelter.
sherrill
11-06-2008, 09:12
I went to summer camp at Ridgecrest. Part of the tradition was to write your name and date on the walls of the cabin. It's private property and there were no camp rules against it.
It was pretty cool as a kid to discover names from the 40's, 50, etc, especially from camp "legends", and to go back now and see my name.
I don't stay in shelters so I really don't care. I don't like them. I think if the club or organization that maintains it posts rules against it you should respect that. Otherwise, have at it.
I think defacing rocks and trees, and trash, is much more offensive.
Lone Wolf
11-06-2008, 09:15
I think defacing rocks and trees, and trash, is much more offensive.
shelters are offensive all by themselves. you're walkin' along in a beautiful stretch of woods then you start smelling a privy and burning garbage in the fire pit then you see it. ruins the moment
sherrill
11-06-2008, 09:30
shelters are offensive all by themselves. you're walkin' along in a beautiful stretch of woods then you start smelling a privy and burning garbage in the fire pit then you see it. ruins the moment
I agree with that.
Dances with Mice
11-06-2008, 10:05
I don't stay in shelters so I really don't care. I don't like them. I think if the club or organization that maintains it posts rules against it you should respect that. Otherwise, have at it.Maintainance clubs don't post rules about vandalism because they like to think most people's mommas raised them right.
Write and draw all you like in shelters. In the journal. That's what it's there for.
OldStormcrow
11-06-2008, 10:28
Like I've always said....."if those vandals and visigoths had been using spray paint when they sacked Rome, all of those statues would still have their noses and arms!"
sherrill
11-06-2008, 11:50
Maintainance clubs don't post rules about vandalism because they like to think most people's mommas raised them right.
Write and draw all you like in shelters. In the journal. That's what it's there for.
I guess it depends on your definition of vandalism.
mechanic.mike
11-06-2008, 11:50
Shelters have always been a trade off. Shelters seem to attract and concentrate the worst habits in one area. Think of how many more fire rings would randomly be found all through the woods or how much more toilet paper would be blowing around on the trail. Think about how these same people would be dumping their garbage along the trail instead of at the shelters fire pit. Is trash at the shelters O.K.? Of course not, but better than all along the trail. If the shelters were not there the people that do not know or do not practice LNT would be spread out all over the place, ruining the atmosphere of the rest of he woods. Shelters help protect the rest of the trail from abuse, notice I said 'help' not eliminate. But at the same time they cause a lot of problems like the graffitti that started this thread. They're condominiums for mice and other rodents. They also seem to attract local partiers hell bent on destroying anything they come across. Some of them and the area around them are real eye sores, but it is still better than it being spread all over the woods and trail.
Shelters have always been a trade off. Shelters seem to attract and concentrate the worst habits in one area. Think of how many more fire rings would randomly be found all through the woods or how much more toilet paper would be blowing around on the trail.
Nope. the type of people who throw trash at the fire pits probably don't evne know how to build a fire. The TP would be so spread out you would not notice it, especially if you consider that far less people would come to the trail if they had not heard of the shelters and prvies.
Think about how these same people would be dumping their garbage along the trail instead of at the shelters fire pit. Is trash at the shelters O.K.? Of course not, but better than all along the trail. If the shelters were not there the people that do not know or do not practice LNT would be spread out all over the place, ruining the atmosphere of the rest of he woods.
Or they might just not come at all. If facilities were not constructed to harbor those with no backcountry skills, then they would flake out once they saw that a gravel road takes you to Springer.
Shelters help protect the rest of the trail from abuse, notice I said 'help' not eliminate. How does providing refuge for those who destroy the trail help protect the trail from abuse?
Shelters have always been a trade off. Shelters seem to attract and concentrate the worst habits in one area. Think of how many more fire rings would randomly be found all through the woods or how much more toilet paper would be blowing around on the trail. Think about how these same people would be dumping their garbage along the trail instead of at the shelters fire pit. Is trash at the shelters O.K.? Of course not, but better than all along the trail. If the shelters were not there the people that do not know or do not practice LNT would be spread out all over the place, ruining the atmosphere of the rest of he woods. Shelters help protect the rest of the trail from abuse, notice I said 'help' not eliminate. But at the same time they cause a lot of problems like the graffitti that started this thread. They're condominiums for mice and other rodents. They also seem to attract local partiers hell bent on destroying anything they come across. Some of them and the area around them are real eye sores, but it is still better than it being spread all over the woods and trail.
amen
MoBill122
11-06-2008, 14:06
Well, we could start a new photo catagory, a sort of " Wall of Shame " Take pictures of all the graffiti and post it online... to shame them.
But then, that would only creat more idiots, who wanted their picture on the wall too, I suspect.
mechanic.mike
11-06-2008, 14:25
Nope. the type of people who throw trash at the fire pits probably don't evne know how to build a fire. The TP would be so spread out you would not notice it, especially if you consider that far less people would come to the trail if they had not heard of the shelters and prvies.
So litterbugs don't know how to build fires?
So toilet paper and it's shadow in 100's of places is better than in one concentrated place?
Or they might just not come at all. If facilities were not constructed to harbor those with no backcountry skills, then they would flake out once they saw that a gravel road takes you to Springer.
You will never get rid of those with no backcountry skills, after all we all started out as "rookies" or "newBies". Besides we need people to protect the trail, it is one of those trade offs again. The trail is only protected if you have large numbers of people to protect it. No people equals No Trail. People are the solution and the problem.
How does providing refuge for those who destroy the trail help protect the trail from abuse?
It is not just for those with no backcountry knowledge it is for the mass quantities that will cause wear and tear no matter how well they practice Leave No Trace ethics.
There is a trade off to everything, sometimes also called a compromise.
Homer&Marje
11-06-2008, 17:01
Technically, the White Blazes that mark the trail (Or any other color shape or design for other trails) are graffiti as well. How many tons of paint have been added to the trees of our forest, to one day decompose, just so guys like me and WrongWay know where we are going:D
I'll agree with anyone out there, shelters are not the prettiest, most gorgeous constructed abodes in all the land. BUT. I don't think the graffiti makes it worse. It's like an old car with bumper stickers from head to toe. Sure you don't want it in your driveway, but you laugh and point as it drives by.
Was someone running a sensitivity workshop in another thread I was not aware of? Maybe I am just desensitized. Yea, that's it.
saimyoji
11-06-2008, 18:59
it must be great to have so much free time to bicker about something so inconsequential. that flotilla of trash is still out there spinning....
Homer&Marje
11-06-2008, 19:27
it must be great to have so much free time to bicker about something so inconsequential. that flotilla of trash is still out there spinning....
Which the computer you have and the chair you are siting on will probably one day end up.
Instead of sending humans to mars, we should send our trash there:D Tax dollars in action.
it must be great to have so much free time to bicker about something so inconsequential.
Surely it is better use of time and bandwidth to engage in mindless banter.:rolleyes:
Maybe you might tell us what you propose WhiteBlazers do with your flotilla of off-topic trash. Individually and collectively we might be able to do something about graffiti which is a significant issue on the AT.
Graffiti on rocks is unsightly and not easily removed. It is vandalism and can result in enforcement action and fines.
I guess it depends on your definition of vandalism.
Public officials and AT land management agencies define vandalism and are responsible for enforcing regulations. Individuals who believe they determine what constitutes vandalism do so at their own peril and can be influenced in various ways by others with whom they share the backcounty.
I'm still ticked at what vandals have done in the past...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Genseric_sacking_Rome_455.jpg/366px-Genseric_sacking_Rome_455.jpg
Mags, you figure by encouraging graffiti on AT corridor lands we are apt to one day be blessed with artwork worthy of preservation such as you posted? How much graffiti must be removed and at what cost in order to provide a fresh canvas for all our budding artists?
Surely you must agree it would be better to display fine art where it could be afforded better protection from the elements. The AT has inspired mankind to create art, but these works are probably best housed somewhere other than on the AT itself which was created to be a gallery where nature's art is exhibited for the benefit of everyone.
Mags, you figure by encouraging graffiti on AT corridor lands we are apt to one day be blessed with artwork worthy of preservation such as you posted? How much graffiti must be removed and at what cost in order to provide a fresh canvas for all our budding artists?
Where did I saw I was encouraging?
My words:
Just saying that while graffiti in shelters is aesthetically bad to many of us (myself included), at some point it may be considered art and/or historical significance.
Please don't put words in my mouth.
As a person with a history background, I just find it interesting how this evolves. That's all...
I take very little of this online banter seriously. Hence my goofy photos of Vandals(ism?)
saimyoji
11-06-2008, 21:23
yep. this here ain't serious. shades of gay, you're taking it too personal. there's other things more worthy of your worry...like that damn floatilla of trash spinning in the pacific ocean. :D
Mags, my comments in post #105 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=720988&postcount=105) referring to the your post #104 were meant to be of a general nature to encourage additional posting by you and others, not to take issue with particular comments you posted there or elsewhere, which I would have quoted were that my intention. I don't see where I put any words in your mouth.
Bulldawg
11-06-2008, 21:34
Mags, my comments were meant to be of a general nature to encourage additional posting by you and others, not to take issue with particular comments you posted, which I would have quoted were that my intention.
So you are trolling and/or playing troll?
Homer&Marje
11-06-2008, 21:35
"And they took my red stapler and I was not happy about it because we used to use the Swingline Stapler and I liked it and when they switched to using the swinger stapler it jammed much more often than the Swingline brand which I liked and it had a nice red color too it, and they moved my desk again, I tell you I was next to the window 6 months ago and now they have put boxes in my space and I did not have enough space before......"
Sounds like Office Space.
Your talents are wasted on us. I think you ought to throw all of your resources into dealing with your flotilla.
Shades of Gray
So you are trolling and/or playing troll?
If that's what you call attempting an on-topic discussion.
Homer&Marje
11-06-2008, 21:39
Mags, you figure by encouraging graffiti on AT corridor lands we are apt to one day be blessed with artwork worthy of preservation such as you posted? How much graffiti must be removed and at what cost in order to provide a fresh canvas for all our budding artists?
Surely you must agree it would be better to display fine art where it could be afforded better protection from the elements. The AT has inspired mankind to create art, but these works are probably best housed somewhere other than on the AT itself which was created to be a gallery where nature's art is exhibited for the benefit of everyone.
Some graffiti artists are paid millions of dollars to do landscapes in peoples houses of intricate patterns that NO ONE in the art world has thought of yet. As mags said, it's a progressive trend, the art world that is. People thought Van Gogh was crazy, oh wait he was. But some really good stuff.
I would not mind walking around the corner on the AT and seeing a beautiful mural painted on a big rock face embodying some scene from nature or anything else really. The less we refer to things as hideous graffiti and more as someones expressive nature will we truly "accept" it.
Mags, my comments were meant to be of a general nature to encourage additional posting by you and others, not to take issue with particular comments you posted, which I would have quoted were that my intention.
You have a crappy way of putting your points in "a general nature" it seems.
saimyoji
11-06-2008, 21:56
Your talents are wasted on us. I think you ought to throw all of your resources into dealing with your flotilla.
Shades of Gray
not my floatilla...OUR floatilla....unfortunately my resources are non-existent, hence my garnering support here.
maybe i should advertise along the trail. i'm sure i can find a rock or a shelter with enough space left on it.
Homer&Marje
11-06-2008, 22:20
not my floatilla...OUR floatilla....unfortunately my resources are non-existent, hence my garnering support here.
maybe i should advertise along the trail. i'm sure i can find a rock or a shelter with enough space left on it.
Just leave flyers illegally nailed to telephone poles like the rest of the public. Maybe we should have moving trash flotillas around town to clean that up.
If one person see's it, another does it. Monkey see. Monkey do. Thank god we have thumbs:rolleyes:
Dances with Mice
11-06-2008, 22:25
So if I'm reading this right then the maintainers in Georgia who put a fresh coat of gray paint over cartoon drawings of a mouse with a large penis and a multitude of scribbled notes speculating on the sexual orientation of other hikers thought they were doing a public service and were making good use of their volunteer hours.
But future art connoisseurs will consider that a desecration of significant cultural expressions? Well, I guess anything's possible. That's laying a big guilt trip on them, man. Being the sensitive sorts that they are, it's a wonder they can sleep at night.
I ain't seen any murals. Those efforts must be saved for another state or something. Maybe the GATC should be offended. Our shelters aren't good enough for trailside Michelangelos? What's wrong with us?
One of the reasons we know about the development of our ancestors minds is the graffitti they left on the caves they slept in. I've also been very interested in graffitti on the walls of the coliseum and the like. The TV show Rome on hbo had good scenes in the credits of ancient Roman graffiti. I've often enjoyed seeing the names of lovers carved into the floor of a firetower...especially whn there are successive years represnted from the same couple...or a dirty limerick or troop number from boyscouts at a shelter...graffitti is cool...certainly no worse a blight on the woods than the shelter itself.
Ah, graffitti. I don't much like it. But I do recognize that some is amusing. Some has the possibility of being of historical important. Most is simply trash. But praise is not automatic. Within a week of the official opening of the East BRanch shelter in Maine a pair of thru hikers, estatic over the approaching end of their long walk, proclaimed that fact on the walls of the newly completed lean-to.
Outraged builders who had spent many weekends among the worse black flies of spring, and many weekends during the hot humid summer days, summoned a ranger from Harpers ferry. The villains were tracked down, and convinced that the better part of valor was to remove the offending words -- not easy to do when the nearest electric socket is 60 miles away.
Weary
Jack Tarlin
11-06-2008, 23:37
Bfitz:
Glad to see you so enthused about the prospect of graffitti bedecked trail shelters.
But tell us.....instead of tagging shelters in, say, Northern Virginia, what if these exact same "artists" decided to decorate private homes in Northern Virginia. Homes like yours, for example?
Would your enthusiasm for graffitti art be so fevered in this case, or would your advocacy of freedom of expression thru grafitti be at all dampened?
And if so, i.e. if you would NOT like to see your family's home decorated thusly, then why on earth do you think anyone wants to see a trail shelter treated this way?
At the end of the day, Bfitz, what's the difference?
One of the reasons we know about the development of our ancestors minds is the graffitti they left on the caves they slept in.
No shelters will last as long as those caves where ancient troglodytes dwelled, not even the shelter on Blood Mountain. We have books, photographs, libraries and art galleries for that purpose.
graffitti is cool...certainly no worse a blight on the woods than the shelter itself.
Bulldawg, see post fragment immediately above for an example of a trolling post.
Mags, note how I quoted bfitz.
bfitz, hope you enjoyed your visit to Eagle's Nest Shelter. Thanks for using its register to record your visit.
We all know the purpose of shelters is to concentrate impacts upon an area chosen for its ability to absorb those impacts and thus discourage spreading the "blight" throughout heavily visited areas by those who don't know or refuse to employ LNT techniques.
Lone Wolf
11-06-2008, 23:49
wow. can't wait to write on a shelter soon. 99.9% of you won't see it.
Mags, note how I quoted bfitz.
Er sure. Good for you. You get the gold star. Congrats.
Until tomorrow boys. My shift is over..and so is this crappy day.. :)
Lone Wolf
11-07-2008, 00:26
May tomorrow be better!
if you hiked any, maybe you would understand how the trail works, kid :cool:
Lone Wolf
11-07-2008, 00:37
Good night, Wolf.
so far, yes. you wanna discuss walkin' the woods? somethin' you obviously don't do? start askin'
so far, yes. you wanna discuss walkin' the woods? somethin' you obviously don't do? start askin'
Come on, LW. It's just walking. What's to discuss?
Weary
Bfitz:
Glad to see you so enthused about the prospect of graffitti bedecked trail shelters.
But tell us.....instead of tagging shelters in, say, Northern Virginia, what if these exact same "artists" decided to decorate private homes in Northern Virginia. Homes like yours, for example?
Would your enthusiasm for graffitti art be so fevered in this case, or would your advocacy of freedom of expression thru grafitti be at all dampened?
And if so, i.e. if you would NOT like to see your family's home decorated thusly, then why on earth do you think anyone wants to see a trail shelter treated this way?
At the end of the day, Bfitz, what's the difference?Eh...all good questions...and there's a lot of different graffiti, can't say I've had equal appreciation for every piece I've seen, and the difference might be precisely that it's not my property. I'm sure plenty of folks didn't like it in ancient Rome either. But that's not exactly my point. I'm saying it's the nature of the beast...and I don't really mind. You wont ever catch me doing it though. If you know what I mean.
Homer&Marje
11-07-2008, 08:26
So if I'm reading this right then the maintainers in Georgia who put a fresh coat of gray paint over cartoon drawings of a mouse with a large penis and a multitude of scribbled notes speculating on the sexual orientation of other hikers thought they were doing a public service and were making good use of their volunteer hours.
But future art connoisseurs will consider that a desecration of significant cultural expressions? Well, I guess anything's possible. That's laying a big guilt trip on them, man. Being the sensitive sorts that they are, it's a wonder they can sleep at night.
I ain't seen any murals. Those efforts must be saved for another state or something. Maybe the GATC should be offended. Our shelters aren't good enough for trailside Michelangelos? What's wrong with us?
Because there aren't any murals, that I know of. Good observation of the obvious, but if an artist chooses one day to use a rock face for just that, I won't stop them.
I would rather the trail maintainers focus on things like, fixing the steps at Kay Wood Shelter so next summer if I go back it won't collapse on me and almost break my ankle. I never said that I agree that ALL of the drawings are appropriate, but sorry that's human nature to decide what is appropriate at the "current moment in time"
If it offends you. Look away. That's what I do. And if there is something I don't want my little brother in law to see I ask him not to look because it's rude and crude....and he listens and understands. But I also allow him to put his initials on a shelter wall if he wants to.
Imagine the scientific significance if someone today were to find a wooden shelter buried in the ground for hundreds of years, only to excavate it and find it covered in carvings with peoples names, dates, events, and drawings. The scientific community would, pardon my french, **** a brick.
Stonehenge isn't pretty by the way. Life is about perspective.
Why do you feel Stonehenge is unattractive?
Homer&Marje
11-07-2008, 08:55
Because I have been there. Why do people find shelter Graffiti unattractive?
Did not say stonehenge was not amazing, a fantastic experience, mind blowing calculations on how druids got these massive pieces of stone to where they are. I said. It's unattractive. But it has cultural significance thousands of years later.
sherrill
11-07-2008, 09:26
Bfitz:
Glad to see you so enthused about the prospect of graffitti bedecked trail shelters.
But tell us.....instead of tagging shelters in, say, Northern Virginia, what if these exact same "artists" decided to decorate private homes in Northern Virginia. Homes like yours, for example?
Would your enthusiasm for graffitti art be so fevered in this case, or would your advocacy of freedom of expression thru grafitti be at all dampened?
And if so, i.e. if you would NOT like to see your family's home decorated thusly, then why on earth do you think anyone wants to see a trail shelter treated this way?
At the end of the day, Bfitz, what's the difference?
Isn't the difference that your home is private property? At minimum, trespassing could be cited.
Some cities and counties have graffiti laws that try to prevent defacing public property or at least give them legal grounds for prosecution.
Is a shelter considered public property? If not, who is considered the owner? Isn't it up to them to decide how to protect their property if graffiti is considered vandalism?
saimyoji
11-07-2008, 09:43
Some cities and counties have graffiti laws that try to prevent defacing public property or at least give them legal grounds for prosecution.
Yes, a good caning is in order. line 'em up.
Lone Wolf
11-07-2008, 09:49
looking forward to doing my first shelter carving this coming new year's at springer mtn. shelter
NICKTHEGREEK
11-07-2008, 10:02
looking forward to doing my first shelter carving this coming new year's at springer mtn. shelter
How much more can you screw up a shelter? Kinda like asking if skunk turds stink I guess.
I do not contribute to graffiti in any setting, but I can appreciate some of it, if it is well done. Case in point, I ran across a very impressive cartoon in a shelter on Isle Royale years back. It was a 2' x 4' colour drawing of a "Wanted" moose. Very humerus, attractive, well drawn, and in no way offensive. I'm sure many parents pointed it out to their young children. I took a photo of it, but have not scanned it for sharing. While this was a very elaborate example, I also enjoy some of the other, less talented examples.
I do not care to encourage graffiti, but I can appreciate some of the well-done, non-offensive items. In general, most of it does not offend me.
Lone Wolf
11-07-2008, 11:14
i've been here http://www.nps.gov/elmo/
it must be great to have so much free time to bicker about something so inconsequential. that flotilla of trash is still out there spinning....
LOL You crack me up!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:DSCN6036_mcoord1850_e.jpg
saimyoji
11-07-2008, 11:56
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:DSCN6036_mcoord1850_e.jpg
Hah. Gotcha. I did that back on a road trip in college. Sometime AFTER 1970.
The question is:
"Would you go back?"
I'm glad I've seen it. I get a charge out of wheel ruts, too.
mechanic.mike
11-07-2008, 12:19
looking forward to doing my first shelter carving this coming new year's at springer mtn. shelter
Not much 'wood' left there, you'll need to bring a Hammer and Chisel.
Bulldawg
11-07-2008, 12:35
looking forward to doing my first shelter carving this coming new year's at springer mtn. shelter
Can I watch?
Simple respect. Don't deface ANYTHING along the trail, unless it's your own gear. And even then, you need to carry it out.
OldStormcrow
11-07-2008, 13:57
Speaking of graffiti, have any of you ever run across the names and dates chiseled into the rocks along the trail around Spence Field? I noticed that the same guy, perhaps grazing his cattle up there each summer, had chiseled his initials there several years in a row in the late 1700's. There was a gap of a few years and then there were some with his and (presumably) his son's initials for several more years. Kinda interesting....
how druids got these massive pieces of stone to where they are. I said. It's unattractive. But it has cultural significance thousands of years later.
That's a monument. I think the better comparison would be the Roman graffiti mentioned earlier. "Anna loves Rufus" (or something similar IIRC) is some examples of 2000 yr old Roman graffiti preserved.
I take Bfitz's approach. I'd never do it. But, it can be interesting.
I also take Lyle's approach, too.
Then again, ther is "Anna loves Rufus".
It is just some meta-philosophical musings. How something that was done by some (probable) teenagers nearly 2000 yrs ago is now historic....
Rockhound
11-07-2008, 20:12
i always carry a sharpe with me to write "please do not deface this shelter with your grafitti" in the most visible spot i can find
saimyoji
11-07-2008, 22:00
yeah, homer and i are buds though. he woulda thought it funny. i understand why you axed it. no malice.
Homer&Marje
11-08-2008, 02:24
yeah, homer and i are buds though. he woulda thought it funny. i understand why you axed it. no malice.
Quite amusing I say ol' chap. Here here, all in pub raise a pint for the graffiti...to be displayed round the world by wooly wompers of all sorts.
And Mags, your right that would have been a better example, but I was trying to show a personal example. Stonehenge is one cold, wet, nasty place with mold everywhere, and....and...so many tourists. (Although I was a part of a school trip so I was in that mixture) but oh do I hate tourists. And this is frickin Mecca for tourists. I think the gift shop at stonehenge is bigger than stonehenge, and it will probably stand for longer.
:banana I just needed that right now.
Jim Adams
11-08-2008, 02:40
This is illogical reasoning as well, in the form of a false analogy. Shelters provide refuge to the people who deface them and in some cases these folks would not be out there if not for the shelter. This cannot be said of rocks!
A bare rock in the forest acts like a billboard...how many blazes do you remember on a prominent rock face...it stands out.:-?
geek
Once sieoe friends and I did vines and flowers on the pillars in overmoutain shelter it was subtle and pretty, with colored pencils. I could still see it by the door to the front section faded but still pretty this year.
Good point, but the people in this country choose to ignore reality.
As I've reported in another thread, when someone christened the then new East Branch Shelter with giant black letters, MATC traced down the culprits with the help of the ranger at Harpers Ferry.
Those responsible were required to remove the letters, and if I remember rightly, made to pay a cash penalty in lieu of going to court.
Weary
Jack Tarlin
11-08-2008, 15:34
They should have paid a cash penalty AND gone to court.
They should have paid a cash penalty AND gone to court.
The arresting officer was the ranger from Harpers Ferry. The penalty for graffiti is a fine. Had he not worked out a payment, the ranger would have had to return to Maine a second time to appear in court.
Since there is only one ranger specifically assigned to a 2,000 mile trail, that didn't seem to be a good use of his time. I'm sure other graffiti has been added to the shelter since, but after a spring, summer and fall of building a shelter, the volunteer builders were outraged by especially ugly vandalism.
Weary
For better or worse, it is inevitable.
For better or worse, it is inevitable.
True, but it's desireable to raise the issue both here and on the AT before actions which are not easily reversed occur. It is also true that while most of the hikers who are responsible for defacing shelters never visit WhiteBlaze, regular visitors here have an important role to play. Therefore, we should discuss this issue and how to minimize its impacts periodically regardless of whether budding artists read it or not.
Lone Wolf
11-09-2008, 14:04
if i saw someone drawing or carving in a shelter i wouldn't say a thing
If it offends you. Look away. That's what I do.
I never cease to be amazed by the abuse directed at trail maintainers. Why would anyone in their right mind want the job?:-?
i always carry a sharpe with me to write "please do not deface this shelter with your grafitti" in the most visible spot i can find
Another Lone Wolf wannabe.:rolleyes: Generally, such people should be ignored, but sometimes I like to repeat their comments so everyone is sure to see what kind of people they are. If you did something comparable on the walls where I work, you would be summarily dismissed.
if i saw someone drawing or carving in a shelter i wouldn't say a thing
You would not be the only one, but I hope more will be encouraged to speak up. Those who engage in this activity should be made aware not everyone approves and those who approve of it or are willing to condone it are in the minority.
http://www.adelphia.net/news/read.php?id=15083402&ps=scitech&lang=en
Food for thought.
Homer&Marje
11-20-2008, 18:38
Very good article. It's true. I've been saying this the whole time, it's human nature to copy what's done before you. Doesn't matter if it's a cigarette butt on the ground, a napkin thrown out the window of your car, graffiti, or innumerable things. Now, most of us control our urge to copy those before us on 99% of these. I said 99%, not 100%. We all have (Most) something that we do that someone else would find deplorable by any standard of their imagination.
It's human nature to copy, and human nature to criticize. That's why it's an endless debate.
More food for thought.
http://www.adelphia.net/news/read.php?id=15083402&ps=scitech&lang=en Food for thought.
A great piece of research but every trail maintainer and overseer who does their job conscientiously, are not surprised by the findings.
That's why maintainers are urged to make frequent visits to their shelters and trails. A clean shelter remains clean. A clean trail remains clean. At least for a while.
But once dirty, it quickly becomes a pig pen. I always carry a trash bag when I walk. Every soda or beer can, every gum wrapper, I see goes in it.
AS a result the trails I walk remain clean. I rarely pick up more than 2 or 3 items, often none at all. But if I take a couple of weeks off, I can easily fill my trash bag.
Weary
TrippinBTM
12-07-2008, 22:25
this is probably a great irony of the shelter system. The types of folks who carve or paint grafitti at the shelters are the types who probably wouldn't have came had the shelters not been there. so are the shelters themselves to blame for their own graffiti?
ponder over that one a while.
my brain just exploded.
It's human nature to copy, and human nature to criticize. That's why it's an endless debate.
More food for thought.
Monkey see; monkey do? I thought man was more evolved. It's only an endless "debate" in an environment where trolling is encouraged or at least permitted. That's what I think.
my brain just exploded.
Go here (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=720205&postcount=11) if you can and click on Shelter Graffiti in the upper right corner for remedial therapy after reading what appears below:
The purpose of the A.T. isn't to provide a playground for elitists, but rather to encourage all people to develop an appreciation for the outdoors, especially those who might not otherwise and have the most to gain from the experience.
Elitists might lower themselves and help facilitate this transformation. Certain other more experienced hikers might do well to come as near as they are able to setting a proper example.
buckwheat
12-08-2008, 09:22
"Cubby 08" carved in huge letters
Here's a question I've had.
When you see Cubby or one of his friends carving up one of the shelters in this manner, is it within the bounds of trail etiquette to beat them senselessly with your Leki and bury them in the nearest cathole?
Here's a question I've had.
When you see Cubby or one of his friends carving up one of the shelters in this manner, is it within the bounds of trail etiquette to beat them senselessly with your Leki and bury them in the nearest cathole?
What happens in the woods stays in the woods.
Lone Wolf
12-08-2008, 09:31
When you see Cubby or one of his friends carving up one of the shelters in this manner, is it within the bounds of trail etiquette to beat them senselessly with your Leki and bury them in the nearest cathole?
no. you join in and do some taggin' of your own
On a recent section hike I was appalled at the level of graffiti on the shelter walls—even the relatively new Mountaineer Falls shelter. Some of this resembles gang graffiti most commonly seen on the sides of rail cars. What’s with this? I am thinking there people on the trail for the wrong reasons, possibly including some thru hikers.
Gangs primarily use graffiti to mark their areas. Gangs couldn't care less about the AT or railroad cars. You just think it is gang related.
I yellow some snow last week does that count as graffiti
saimyoji
12-08-2008, 12:15
Gangs primarily use graffiti to mark their areas. Gangs couldn't care less about the AT or railroad cars. You just think it is gang related.
there are many wannabees who imitate gang signs and tags..just look on mybook,or facespace or one of those places....
Alligator
12-08-2008, 12:18
I yellow some snow last week does that count as graffitiDid you spell your name?
Did you spell your name?
lol! Funniest post all day!
No just wrote out my wish list for santa on the gear I want :)
catfishrivers
12-08-2008, 14:53
If people are truly upset by graffiti along the way, then sign up for your local AT trail maintenance club and do the work needed to fix it. Of course it will come back after fixed. Think of yourself as a beach comber and the graffiti as the seaweed, shells, driftwood and trash that the sea deposits on the beach.
My opinion is, if you are going to complain about something, might as well empower yourself to act to change it. Otherwise you are just flapping at the mouth...deposit 2 cents here.
If people are truly upset by graffiti along the way, then sign up for your local AT trail maintenance club and do the work needed to fix it. Of course it will come back after fixed. Think of yourself as a beach comber and the graffiti as the seaweed, shells, driftwood and trash that the sea deposits on the beach.
My opinion is, if you are going to complain about something, might as well empower yourself to act to change it. Otherwise you are just flapping at the mouth...deposit 2 cents here.
I volunteered for trail maintenance in CT. They asked what I would like to do. I said burn down the shelters. They said, no thanks, open fires are not permitted along the AT in CT. So, not all offers to fix things are accepted. Where do I deposit my 2 cents?
traildust
12-08-2008, 18:28
disappointing.
saimyoji
12-08-2008, 23:38
If people are truly upset by graffiti along the way, then sign up for your local AT trail maintenance club and do the work needed to fix it. Of course it will come back after fixed. Think of yourself as a beach comber and the graffiti as the seaweed, shells, driftwood and trash that the sea deposits on the beach.
yep. and then of course that giant island of garbage is still out there....:(
Think of yourself as a beach comber and the graffiti as the seaweed, shells, driftwood and trash that the sea deposits on the beach.
I'd prefer to think of myself as someone who helps make it possible for others to experience the Appalachian Trail as it was intended.
If people are truly upset by graffiti along the way, then sign up for your local AT trail maintenance club and do the work needed to fix it.
Apparently it hadn't occurred to catfishrivers trail maintainers have been posting in an attempt to fix it before it occurs.
Jack Tarlin
12-09-2008, 19:51
Good point. If people weren't inconsiderate idiots, then it wouldn't need to be fixed. :rolleyes:
Rockhound
12-10-2008, 19:45
i see "smoke weed" written on just about every oyher shelter. I never would have started had it not been for that.
smokymtnsteve
12-10-2008, 19:47
i see "smoke weed" written on just about every oyher shelter. I never would have started had it not been for that.
me eithier:rolleyes:
Obviously, both of you are placing the blame where it doesn't belong, but defacing shelters is disrespectful toward volunteers who built them, individuals or businesses who funded them and others who use them in many cases for free. Not only do volunteers give their time, they often take money out of their own pockets believing they are contributing something of value to society that will endure through changing times.
Commercial establishments charge a handsome fee and they would more than likely have guests who deface their walls arrested. Why should it be okay to act differently in the woods? It isn't, if anyone is still wondering.
no. you join in and do some taggin' of your own
Another totally silly position from a hiker with the knowledge, intelligence, and experience to provide wisdom to newcomers, but who boosts his ego by doing the opposite.
Weary
Did you spell your name?
Alligator. That's not funny., It means you are part of the problem, not a solution.
Weary
Skidsteer
12-10-2008, 21:31
Alligator. That's not funny., It means you are part of the problem, not a solution.
Weary
OK. Next time I piss in the snow, I'll spell your name instead of mine.
It gets tougher as you get older.
Really not funny at all, that.
Especially if you have to dot an "i"
Oh well.
OK. Next time I piss in the snow, I'll spell your name instead of mine.
I don't give a ..... what you spell in the snow. I do question the wisdom of an administrator and moderator making a joke of an important trail issue, at least among serious maintainers, if not the casual AT walker.
Weary
Skidsteer
12-10-2008, 21:42
I don't give a ..... what you spell in the snow. I do question the wisdom of an administrator and moderator making a joke of an important trail issue, at least among serious maintainers, if not the casual AT walker.
Weary
Ok. I'll just hold it.
Lone Wolf
12-10-2008, 21:47
Another totally silly position from a hiker with the knowledge, intelligence, and experience to provide wisdom to newcomers, but who boosts his ego by doing the opposite.
Weary
i could give a **** about shelters, the surrounding areas and the folks that build them and clean them. they're man-made boxes that attract pigs. newcomers, stay away from shelters. they suck
Lone Wolf
12-10-2008, 21:49
I do question the wisdom of an administrator and moderator making a joke of an important trail issue, at least among serious maintainers, if not the casual AT walker.
it's a non-issue
The sound of rain on a metal shelter roof is hard to beat on a windy night. A shelter can be a beautiful thing.
You must do all your hiking during the busy season.
Lone Wolf
12-10-2008, 21:55
You must do all your hiking during the busy season.
is this advice for newbies? i hike alone and stay in a tent. the rain sounds great
I understand (actually read it in the register) that if you stay at certain shelters late in the season, say oct/nov you may not leave with all you showed up with.
Case in point,
A late SOBO entry in nov 08 at the Bemis shelter in maine says something like this:
spent the night, mice were ferocious, hardly slept as they were chewing through bag shell and making off with the filling, they weren't hungry, they were cold....
Four new holes in bag upon awakening, hoping i can sew it up in Andover.
I understand (actually read it in the register) that if you stay at certain shelters late in the season, say oct/nov you may not leave with all you showed up with.
Case in point,
A late SOBO entry in nov 08 at the Bemis shelter in maine says something like this:
spent the night, mice were ferocious, hardly slept as they were chewing through bag shell and making off with the filling, they weren't hungry, they were cold....
Four new holes in bag upon awakening, hoping i can sew it up in Andover.
Woodsy: Mice, by the end of the season, are almost impossible to control. They have been indoctrinated and educated by -- and passed their DNA on to -- several generations by November.
This is information to pass on to hikers. It is not a reason for abolishing existing shelters. I've said several times what I feel about building new shelters.
Weary
I don't give a ..... what you spell in the snow. I do question the wisdom of an administrator and moderator making a joke of an important trail issue, at least among serious maintainers, if not the casual AT walker.
Weary
i'm confused. when did peeing in the snow become an important trail issue?
Lone Wolf
12-11-2008, 09:46
i'm confused. when did peeing in the snow become an important trail issue?
only in weary's world :rolleyes:
i'm confused. when did peeing in the snow become an important trail issue?
Yesterday? :D
warraghiyagey
12-11-2008, 09:52
Hmmmm . . . is this the new "Pissy Fit" Thread??
warraghiyagey
12-11-2008, 10:05
-------------
well said. . .
Gray Blazer
12-11-2008, 10:46
My nephew chiseled his and his childhood sweetheart's names (also the mother of his child) in the rocks at Charlies Bunion. I don't think anyone will be fining him because he was murdered in SLC, UT last year. I look forward to hiking in the Smokies with his son, my grand nephew, one day and showing him his mother's and father's name carved into a rock a mile high in the mountains.
My nephew chiseled his and his childhood sweetheart's names (also the mother of his child) in the rocks at Charlies Bunion. I don't think anyone will be fining him because he was murdered in SLC, UT last year. I look forward to hiking in the Smokies with his son, my grand nephew, one day and showing him his mother's and father's name carved into a rock a mile high in the mountains.
i'm sorry to hear about your nephew. that's sad.
while you're up there, don't forget to pee in the snow. REBEL!!
Gray Blazer
12-11-2008, 11:57
i'm sorry to hear about your nephew. that's sad.
while you're up there, don't forget to pee in the snow. REBEL!!
I hear there may be an ice storm up there today.
law, it's 60 degrees, maybe tomorrow, i think?
Homer&Marje
12-11-2008, 17:40
My nephew chiseled his and his childhood sweetheart's names (also the mother of his child) in the rocks at Charlies Bunion. I don't think anyone will be fining him because he was murdered in SLC, UT last year. I look forward to hiking in the Smokies with his son, my grand nephew, one day and showing him his mother's and father's name carved into a rock a mile high in the mountains.
That will be one of the best uses ever of, let's call it, Graffiti. Sorry about your nephew but glad you have something that could live on forever in his memory.
smokymtnsteve
12-12-2008, 16:08
That will be one of the best uses ever of, let's call it, Graffiti. Sorry about your nephew but glad you have something that could live on forever in his memory.
yes but what if everybody did? I'd rather be remembered for cleaning something up ...
It might be possible to visit such a special place without calling attention to something which may or may not now be done which was or would be wrong and can't or couldn't likely be made right. At least, it could be pointed out what may or may not have occurred is or would be wrong.
I won't dig for the regs unless someone wants them, but they're readily available. We shouldn't even need to post them.
Homer&Marje
12-13-2008, 09:12
It might be possible to visit such a special place without calling attention to something which may or may not now be done which was or would be wrong and can't or couldn't likely be made right. At least, it could be pointed out what may or may not have occurred is or would be wrong.
I won't dig for the regs unless someone wants them, but they're readily available. We shouldn't even need to post them.
They'll fall on deaf ears anyways. I think we can all agree that the graffiti that is being complained about is the obscene, offensive, and sometimes graphic displays that people choose to carve or draw with a sharpie. As well as some of the larger and more noticeable name carvings that seem too time consuming and energy wasting to even fathom.
I'm sorry but carving your initials is just no big deal to me on a box in the woods. How many "Regulations" does the shelter break in itself being an entity in the woods.
pyroman53
12-13-2008, 13:06
It might be possible to visit such a special place without calling attention to something which may or may not now be done which was or would be wrong and can't or couldn't likely be made right. At least, it could be pointed out what may or may not have occurred is or would be wrong.
I won't dig for the regs unless someone wants them, but they're readily available. We shouldn't even need to post them.
What the heck does this say?!?:confused:
Pedaling Fool
12-13-2008, 13:07
It might be possible to visit such a special place without calling attention to something which may or may not now be done which was or would be wrong and can't or couldn't likely be made right. At least, it could be pointed out what may or may not have occurred is or would be wrong.
I won't dig for the regs unless someone wants them, but they're readily available. We shouldn't even need to post them.
A "special place" for me is the privy after my morning coffee. It's always entertaining to read the graffiti on the privy walls during this special time of day. I know it’s unlawful to deface shelters with graffiti, but I hope there’s an exception (at least an unofficial exception) for privy walls.
Does anyone have problems with graffiti on privy walls?
I'm sorry but carving your initials is just no big deal to me on a box in the woods.
You are not sorry as evidenced by your disrespectful word choice and your persistent trolling. The term box in this context is not a neutral term and you know damned well it isn't.
Backcountry visitors who think like you may in reality think don't get to pick and choose what's acceptable graffiti and then act based upon their own determination. This self-centered, shortsighted thinking is what's at the root of the problem.
Any defacing of public property is apt to encourage more, increase tolerance of it and diminishes the experiences of others, no matter how insignificant it seems at the time to those who do it. None is acceptable, nor is condoning it.
How many "Regulations" does the shelter break?
This is a ridiculous question and an attempt to divert attention away from the issue. Let's see if we can stay on-topic.
Does anyone have problems with graffiti on privy walls?
It's every bit as objectionable, disrespectful and inappropriate. I suggest you sign the privy register instead.:rolleyes:
What the heck does this say?!?:confused:
I considered rewriting my post and may still, but if no one is interested in a serious discussion about the issue there may be no point and it may not be worth my effort. Until such time as I do, I would refer you to the post immediately preceeding mine which points in the direction I was headed.
Pedaling Fool
12-13-2008, 15:55
Thank You! No one is interested in a serious discussion on a non-serious topic.
Homer&Marje
12-13-2008, 16:31
I considered rewriting my post and may still, but if no one is interested in a serious discussion about the issue there may be no point and it may not be worth my effort. Until such time as I do, I would refer you to the post immediately preceeding mine which points in the direction I was headed.
We are having a serious discussion. Just because we are the opposite opinion of your holy "ness" does not mean we are being disrespectful in our posts...it means we differ in opinion. Another human character flaw developed over the last 10,000 years. Just like cave paintings to hieroglyphics to shelter graffiti.
I'm not trolling nor am I deferring from the topic. I asked a serious question about how much damage a shelter area does on it's own just being there for people to use. I don't mind the fact that it concentrates our impact on the wilderness but I'm also not going to moan about someone leaving their initials behind on a shelter wall to signify that yes in fact, JGH '03 was there. I don't care who JGH was or why he felt compelled to put his initials there.
I did agree that some of the offensive graffiti is mostly unnecessary with pictures of nefarious human poses and parts of all sorts. It is childish, but carving your name, initials, the year you were there, or something of that sort is completely a non issue for me. As for the rest of it, that's why trail maintenance groups go and spray paint over most of it. Sorry you read it while it was there, it wasn't me, so don't attack my position for simply being human and not a ......no name calling.
....How many "Regulations" does the shelter break in itself being an entity in the woods.
None that I know of, as long as the shelter was built by a maintaining club with the permission of the landowner And in accordance with whatever environmental laws, such as set back from streams and the like, that a state may impose. Do you know of any?
Weary
Lone Wolf
12-13-2008, 16:59
the building of shelters breaks nature's laws. ripping a bunch of trees down to build a wooden box for people to trash is unnatural
the building of shelters breaks nature's laws. ripping a bunch of trees down to build a wooden box for people to trash is unnatural
That's why some of us are opposed to trashing them with graffiti. But I agree with LOne Wolf that we should ban the construction of houses in wooded areas because houses are "unnatural" in the woods.
I just finished reading a biography of Buzz Caverly, who worked in the park for 45 years -- most of the time as a supervisor, or the park director. He was forced to retire because of public opposition to some of his policies -- like when he tore down cabins and replaced them with lean-tos, which he thought were more compatible with Gov. Baxter's desire for a wild park.
Weary
Thank You! No one is interested in a serious discussion on a non-serious topic.
It is a serious topic or it wouldn't be a prohibited act.
That's why some of us are opposed to trashing them with graffiti. But I agree with LOne Wolf that we should ban the construction of houses in wooded areas because houses are "unnatural" in the woods.
Weary
Okay everyone, pack up, we're moving back to Eur-asia or wherever we all came from. Weary has spoken.
There ain't nothing unnatural about building shelters in the woods. All mammals do. Humans have been doing it since the first cave got overcrowded. The AT was designed to have shelters. Folks who dislike shelters on the AT are like city folks who move out to the country and complain about the smell of farms.
Lone Wolf
12-13-2008, 19:40
ok. build the shelters but don't bitch about the graffiti in them. end of thread. next?
ok. build the shelters but don't bitch about the graffiti in them. end of thread. next?
No one bitchs more than you, about shelters. So rather than find solultions, ya, lets just quit the topic.
Lone Wolf
12-13-2008, 19:49
So rather than find solultions, ya, lets just quit the topic.
because it really is a non-issue
Pedaling Fool
12-13-2008, 19:50
Okay everyone, pack up, we're moving back to Eur-asia or wherever we all came from. Weary has spoken.
Actually, we're all Africans;)
trailmonkey
12-13-2008, 21:44
On a recent section hike I was appalled at the level of graffiti on the shelter walls—even the relatively new Mountaineer Falls shelter. Some of this resembles gang graffiti most commonly seen on the sides of rail cars. What’s with this? I am thinking there people on the trail for the wrong reasons, possibly including some thru hikers.
I have read this thread and I can only say that in no way could I approve of vandalizing property that is not mine.
Sorry, but it must be how I was raised.
TM
no One Bitchs More Than You, About Shelters. So Rather Than Find Solultions, Ya, Lets Just Quit The Topic.
Well Said ...
Frick Frack
12-13-2008, 22:06
It is amazing to me there are that many worthless stoners who get to a shelter and have no motivation other than to deface property. I appreciate the hard work someone went through to provide and maintain a shelter and the stoners have nothing else better to do than draw & carve all over someone elses hard work with no regard for anyone or anything other than themselves. It is amazing that they will be as worthless when they started as when they finished.....
because it really is a non-issue
A few months ago we had a spirited discussion about whether it was proper to ignore some bureaucratic regulations (laws).
If I wasn't lazy (and kinda busy) I would go back and check whether any of those who were adamant about obeying every administrative rule, regardless of how silly, are now saying it's okay to violate the laws against graffiti, passed by Legislatures. Does anyone remember?
Weary
Homer&Marje
12-13-2008, 22:52
the building of shelters breaks nature's laws. ripping a bunch of trees down to build a wooden box for people to trash is unnatural
I don't mind shelters....but I also completely agree. Scary:D
I suspect we've all done things over the years that we now regret. Here are two examples that come to mind.
First anecdote: I've been reading a new biography of Buzz Caverly, the long time director of Baxter State Park. Among the stories in the book is about the time Buzz, age 21, was hired as a summer ranger, and assigned to Russell Pond Campground in the Center of the Park. One day he and a lone camper spent several hours clearing and blazing a trail to Lookout Rock, a particular scenic overlook. At the end of the effort, the two painted their names on a flat rock at the overlook.
Years later as he was being considered for promotion, Buzz Caverly got an anonymous phone call asking if he was the I. Caverly whose name was on the rock. Buzz was up before dawn, walked in 11 miles with a scrub brush, expecting to remove the faded foot high lettering. Instead he found another ranger new to the area had noticed the fading paint and refreshed it with a rich dark paint, expecting that Caverly would appreciate his effort.
I had seen the names when my wife and three kids walked into Russell Pond for a week's vacation, a few years after the original graffiti. I explained to my kids that they shouldn't do such things.
Second story: My first winter backpack as an adult occurred New Years Eve 1969. I accompanied a Sierra Club group that snowshoed nine miles into the park on the Appalachian Trail from Abol Bridge. This was before "Leave No Trace" had become a popular message, but our leader, a professor of Zoology at the University of Maine in Orono, knew the message well. Before heading out on the trail, he lectured the group -- including his two daughters, ages 11 and 13 -- and several of his students about "leaving only footprints and taking only pictures."
The use of snowmobiles in a wilderness park was a raging battle in Maine at the time. Our aim was to demonstrate to the world that snowmobiles weren't needed to enjoy the park in winter.
Well we got to Katahdin Stream and found the bunkhouse where we were to spend the night still padlocked. We were the first winter group to enter the park by trail, rather than the main gate, and the rangers had forgotten we were coming.
We gathered some firewood and camped in a couple of lean-tos. That night the temperature dropped to minus 32 degrees F. One of the kids had a hardtime sleeping and passed time by reading the graffiti with his flashlight. Among the names he found carved into the shelter was the name of our Sierra Club leader.
He was greatly embarrassed. But there was another embarrassment on that trip. A women who had accompanied us took sick -- and was evacuated by a friendly snowmobiler....
Weary
Lone Wolf
12-14-2008, 07:51
not only are shelters good for graffiti but great for keg parties. there's a photo in the gallery right now of a party at overmountain shelter
Actually, we're all Africans;)
no kidding? :rolleyes: i didn't want to go that far back
not only are shelters good for graffiti but great for keg parties. there's a photo in the gallery right now of a party at overmountain shelter
i was tenting near a shelter in MA about 20 years ago when a local group hauled in a keg. they drank until they puked... some in the shelter. the scary part is when they started firing their rifle randomly into the woods.
Homer&Marje
12-14-2008, 09:37
i was tenting near a shelter in MA about 20 years ago when a local group hauled in a keg. they drank until they puked... some in the shelter. the scary part is when they started firing their rifle randomly into the woods.
I didn't hit anybody did I? JK:D You know I don't roll with guns:rolleyes:
Why I ask would people be silly enough to carry in a keg when they could do some simple math...pick up 3 or for handles of your favorite whiskey, scotch, rum, vodka, gin or otherwise.....get the same alcohol content as a full keg of beer.....1/10 the weight....hell, you could still add a 30 pack mixed between a couple people and your still lighter than a keg.
That way you can get down to the drunken shelter graffiti quicker
I suspect we've all done things over the years that we now regret. Here are two examples that come to mind.
First anecdote: I've been reading a new biography of Buzz Caverly, the long time director of Baxter State Park. Among the stories in the book is about the time Buzz, age 21, was hired as a summer ranger, and assigned to Russell Pond Campground in the Center of the Park. One day he and a lone camper spent several hours clearing and blazing a trail to Lookout Rock, a particular scenic overlook. At the end of the effort, the two painted their names on a flat rock at the overlook.
Years later as he was being considered for promotion, Buzz Caverly got an anonymous phone call asking if he was the I. Caverly whose name was on the rock. Buzz was up before dawn, walked in 11 miles with a scrub brush, expecting to remove the faded foot high lettering. Instead he found another ranger new to the area had noticed the fading paint and refreshed it with a rich dark paint, expecting that Caverly would appreciate his effort.
I had seen the names when my wife and three kids walked into Russell Pond for a week's vacation, a few years after the original graffiti. I explained to my kids that they shouldn't do such things.
Second story: My first winter backpack as an adult occurred New Years Eve 1969. I accompanied a Sierra Club group that snowshoed nine miles into the park on the Appalachian Trail from Abol Bridge. This was before "Leave No Trace" had become a popular message, but our leader, a professor of Zoology at the University of Maine in Orono, knew the message well. Before heading out on the trail, he lectured the group -- including his two daughters, ages 11 and 13 -- and several of his students about "leaving only footprints and taking only pictures."
The use of snowmobiles in a wilderness park was a raging battle in Maine at the time. Our aim was to demonstrate to the world that snowmobiles weren't needed to enjoy the park in winter.
Well we got to Katahdin Stream and found the bunkhouse where we were to spend the night still padlocked. We were the first winter group to enter the park by trail, rather than the main gate, and the rangers had forgotten we were coming.
We gathered some firewood and camped in a couple of lean-tos. That night the temperature dropped to minus 32 degrees F. One of the kids had a hardtime sleeping and passed time by reading the graffiti with his flashlight. Among the names he found carved into the shelter was the name of our Sierra Club leader.
He was greatly embarrassed. But there was another embarrassment on that trip. A women who had accompanied us took sick -- and was evacuated by a friendly snowmobiler....
Weary
i expected a personal anecdote. nothing you want to share about yourself there, weary?
i was tenting near a shelter in MA about 20 years ago when a local group hauled in a keg. they drank until they puked... some in the shelter. the scary part is when they started firing their rifle randomly into the woods.
sounds like the ga pinhoti.
Years ago, one could get a 7.5 gallon pony keg. If you have never humped one of those into the boondocks, well, what did you do in your youth?
i expected a personal anecdote. nothing you want to share about yourself there, weary?
Well I did report having to sleep unexpectedly in an open shelter in minus 32 degree weather. I suppose I should also say that since it was my first winter trip I wore whatever was around the house -- like a cotton, blaze orange, hunting jacket. It worked so well that for my next trip I bought a cotton Anorak that the LL Bean catalogue said was a personal favorite of LL himself.
I do remember attempting to carve something on something -- a picnic table, probably, but I don't remember, afterall it was 60 or so years ago.
But I discovered I was not a very skilled carver and not a very skilled knife sharpener, so I gave up carving on things I didn't own.
Lately, however, I've become pretty skilled at carving trail signs, free hand with a router, though being a procrastinator, I have a long list of signs to still do.
Weary
Homer&Marje
12-15-2008, 08:43
Years ago, one could get a 7.5 gallon pony keg. If you have never humped one of those into the boondocks, well, what did you do in your youth?
I think we call those Beer Balls up here. They are about 40 bucks or so and you get about 3 30 packs worth out of them.
Weary, you should get a hand held zip saw, one with the blade that almost looks like a screwdriver bit....they are extremely handy and would carve out a trail sign in no time. Router works too though, just bulky to move around....unless it's mounted to a router table. Which it probably is.
I think we call those Beer Balls up here. They are about 40 bucks or so and you get about 3 30 packs worth out of them.
Weary, you should get a hand held zip saw, one with the blade that almost looks like a screwdriver bit....they are extremely handy and would carve out a trail sign in no time. Router works too though, just bulky to move around....unless it's mounted to a router table. Which it probably is.
I print the sign with my computer. Paste it on the wood, and route through the paper into the wood. I then scrub the paper off, give the sign three coats of green paint, and fill the routed letter grooves with white paint.
The router is awkward, hard to control, and tends to obscure my computer lettering. I've never seen or heard of a zip saw. I've tried to use a Dremel,but it is too slow.
Weary
Go to a woodworker's warehouse. Gadgets that hook up to a PC and carve have gotten quite affordable.
Course, nothing wrong with doing it the time honored freehand version. At least you have a router to use!
Pony keg was just a runt version of the 15 gal unit. 7.5 gallons is really quite alot.
Go to a woodworker's warehouse. Gadgets that hook up to a PC and carve have gotten quite affordable.
Course, nothing wrong with doing it the time honored freehand version. At least you have a router to use!
Pony keg was just a runt version of the 15 gal unit. 7.5 gallons is really quite alot.
I don't want the sign to look too polished. I like the illusion of wildness, even for our town land trust preserves. I've looked at the machines that will precisely copy my paper pattern. Aside from the cost, I think a little roughness is a plus.
Weary
I don't want the sign to look too polished. I like the illusion of wildness, even for our town land trust preserves. I've looked at the machines that will precisely copy my paper pattern. Aside from the cost, I think a little roughness is a plus.
Weary
a little roughness? with a power router? :rolleyes:
I think a little roughness is a plus.
Weary
Agreed.
Leave the prissy signs on the other side of the river.
Course, Acadia has the machined signs, and they seem very sterile, with little character.
Lone Wolf
12-16-2008, 09:23
how 'bout replacing that fugly maine border sign
Plodderman
12-16-2008, 09:28
Do not see why people want to carve there names in the shelters but unless a shelter comes down on top of me from all the carvings I do not really care.
Gray Blazer
12-16-2008, 10:09
At least you have a router to use!
We call them electric termites down here.
a little roughness? with a power router? :rolleyes:
Tin Man try drawing a sign with a hand held router. Let us know how smooth and regular the letters are.